1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shondaland 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Inventing 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Anna the Official Podcast. I'm your host, Stacy Wilson Hunt 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: and this is the podcast for the Shadaland series Inventing Anna. 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: This show is your exclusive look behind the scenes and 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: cons of the notorious fake German heiress Anna delve I'll 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: be unraveling the stories behind the story and speaking with 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: many of the creatives who brought the story to your 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 1: Netflix queue, including some of the real people who got 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: entangled in Anna Delvie's web. It's been nearly four years 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: since journalist Jessica Pressler published her explosive New York Magazine 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: feature on Anna Sarrokan, who'd been arrested for stealing hundreds 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars from New York's social elite. The 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: story lights up the Internet. Readers can't seem to get 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: enough of Pressler's juicy reporting on how an unknown twenty 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: seven year old going by the name of Anna delbe 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: with no connections or cashet, somehow managed to scam New 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: York's most exclusive bankers, restaurants, and hotels. Among those readers 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: was none other than Powerhouse PD producer Shonda Rhymes. Later 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: in the show we will hear from Jessica and Shonda 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: about how they're two distinct worlds collided. But first I 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: had the honor of sitting down with Inventing Anna creator 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: and showrunner Shonda Rhymes. I Shanna, it's so nice to 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: be speaking with you about Inventing Anna. Congratulations on this series. 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: Thank you excited about it? Yes, and I'm so excited 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: for fans to see it. It's a real wild ride 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: and as anything that we discussed. In terms of Storytelline, 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to start at the beginning. Let's start with 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Jessica Pressler's piece which inspired the series, how Anna Delve 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: Tricked New York's Party People. This was published online in 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: The Cut in May, so I'd love to go back 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: to that period and tell me when you first read 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: the article and how did it first land on your radar. 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: I think I was on vacation when it first came out. 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I read it on the treadmill. I 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: don't think I said some spa or somewhere trying to 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: decompress from too much work. By the way, that's very 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: Anna Delvia you to be at a spa. I don't know. 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I smothering in a Delvie does. But 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: I was on a treadmill and I read it on 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: the treadmill, and I remember thinking, this is a really 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: fascinating article. It was one of those things where you 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: know you sort of couldn't put it down and you 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: could see it, like I could sort of see the 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: whole thing from beginning to end. I don't necessarily think 46 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: to myself, I'm inspired by this orm I inspired by that. 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: I can just sort of see it as a series 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: in a piece. Once I can visualize something and it 49 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: gets under my skin, I get excited about it and 50 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: sort of know that it's something that we're gonna want 51 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: to make. And this had that quality about it a 52 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: lot of just because writing was really visual and really 53 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: interesting and felt adaptable, like it felt like a story 54 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: you wanted to get inside and walk around. M That 55 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: makes sense, And in terms of process, nothing is more 56 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: important than writers. And you've worked with so many incredible 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: writers over the last almost two decades. Tell me what 58 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: was most important to you in bringing together the writers 59 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: in this room. It's a specific show. It has a 60 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: specific tone, a lot of research, a lot of fact checking, 61 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: a I have kind of a posse of writers who 62 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm always working with. A lot of the writers came from, 63 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, my prior shows. Some of the new ones 64 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: were people who's just they have original voices. They don't 65 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: write anything like me, they don't sound anything like me. 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: They have their own way of looking at things. I 67 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: like people who will argue with me in a room, 68 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: and that's generally what gets to hire is your willingness 69 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: to argue with me in a room. We assigned every 70 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: episode to a writer, and you know, yes there rewrites 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: and everything, but every writer is the is the architect 72 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: of their episode. I wanted every episode to feel different 73 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: and to have a different vibe to it. And so 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: unlike most of my shows where you you know, you 75 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: feel like a cadence of dialogue or you feel like 76 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: they all have a certain vibe to it, every episode 77 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: feels like its own little movie. And because we were 78 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: trying to give every episode a different narrator and a 79 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: different narrative, it worked so well to have each episode 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: have a writer be just the architect of that episode, 81 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: almost as if you were the editor assigning a journalists 82 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: the story, kind of sending them out to do their thing, 83 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: and they came back and delivered their own specific telling 84 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: of events. So I think that worked out. It made 85 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: it so much fun for all of us to have 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: the writers come back with their own points of view 87 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: and their own ideas about what they were going to 88 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: put in, and you know, we would argue and we 89 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: would debate things, but in the end, you know, what 90 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: they created, what they each created was just fabulous. The 91 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: big addition to our room this time was we hired 92 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: a really incredible, amazing researcher. And having a researcher was 93 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: extraordinarily important because we were telling a story that was 94 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: based on fact. We needed someone to build an extensive 95 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: timeline of events, to dig into little things that we 96 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: weren't even sure we're going to matter that ended up mattering, 97 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: or sometimes they didn't end up not mattering. We go 98 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: down these rabbit holes of facts that ended up we'd 99 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: all become obsessed with it ended up not mattering. You know. 100 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: We've always had a researcher in the writer's room for medicine, 101 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: for everything, but for this particular show, having somebody who 102 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: had read every transcript of the trial, who was paying 103 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: close attention to every little detail of Anna's life, knew 104 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: everything that was to know about, you know, the building 105 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: she wanted to buy. All of those things was really 106 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: really important, not only because we were dealing with the 107 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: show about journalists at the journalism and part right, but 108 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: because we also wanted to know what we were thinking, 109 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. We wanted to know what 110 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: we were making up. We didn't want to just be 111 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: making things up just for the sake of it, right, 112 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: And you wanted to be intentional with those fictionalization of events, 113 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: right exactly. We wanted to We wanted to intentionally be 114 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: fictionalizing moments versus just accidentally be fictionalizing moments. Exactly. It's 115 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: always good to be intentional. And it's funny you bring 116 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: up the timeline, which makes me think of the wall 117 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: that Vivian's character has in the show in her baby room, 118 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: and it's I hear that there was actually an Anna 119 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: wall at shod Land. Is this true that you were 120 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: keeping track of everything? There was a huge wall, and 121 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: I think there was actually there was more than one 122 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: room and more than one wall, because we had what 123 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: I called like our casting wall, like our wall of 124 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: all the different pictures of Anna's which was interesting, and 125 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: by that I mean just the different ways that the 126 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: actual Anna looked and therefore all of the different versions 127 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: of Anna's that existed in the world. In our world, 128 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: we also had a wall that was just a timeline. 129 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: We had a wall that was what each episode was 130 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: going to encompass and what that was going to mean. 131 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: If we had, you know, an episode that it was 132 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: just the trial, what was that going to mean. We 133 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: had a wall that was about our characters who were 134 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: based on real people versus our characters who were fictionalized 135 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: composites of people. M cool. Good thing. You have a 136 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: lot of office space at Shonda Land, right, we definitely 137 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: needed the walls. I think we I think we actually 138 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: outgrew the wall space. It was. It was a lot 139 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: so throughout this process for you personally, what was the 140 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: most enjoyable about this process in terms of what it 141 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: takes to report the story? What aspect of it was 142 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: new to you, and what did you enjoy the most 143 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: about this? You know, we we had this group of 144 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: people that we sort of a little made up group 145 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: of people that we we had working at Manhattan Magazine, 146 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: which was our made up magazine or made up version 147 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: of New York Magazine that we called Scriberia, and they 148 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: were like the older, seasoned reporters who had won awards, 149 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: who nobody could fire because they were those are my 150 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: favorite people, by the way, Yeah that's a kind of 151 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: put out a pasture, but they were sort of They 152 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: had lots of war stories and so to me, like 153 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: one of my favorite parts about getting to do this 154 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: was creating the world of scribe Area and those three reporters. 155 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Please stop caring about me. It's horrifying. Hey, it's not 156 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: like I want to care about you. I didn't even 157 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: want your Inscribe Area, but you're here and you have 158 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: a filthy mouth and you're not a revolting millennial, so 159 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: fuck you. I care. Hey, kid moudern, I already filed 160 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: our stories, so our time is here's you're not me. 161 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: I have a big one to write. Trump is threatening 162 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: to overthrow our democracy. Trump is threatening to overthrow our 163 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: democracy every ten minutes is going to do it again tomorrow. 164 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: They were so much fun to write, they were so 165 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: much fun to use, and they you know, they're obviously 166 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: some really famously talented theater actors who created their own 167 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: little world under themselves. I mean, they had their own 168 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: they had their own little vibe going that was just 169 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: beautiful to watch. And they helped, they helped us tell her, 170 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: they helped tell the story. So creating that was really fun. 171 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: But for me, there were so many parts of it 172 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: that we're just exciting and fun. I loved that we 173 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: separated it out and let each episode be a story 174 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: undo itself in its own way and let you see 175 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: the different versions of Anna through different characters eyes, that 176 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: sort of Raschaman structure that I love so much. Yeah, 177 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: that was really fun for me. And I have a special, 178 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: a really deep affection for nef Um So for me 179 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: that episode episode five and nef episode was one of 180 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: my favorite things that we've ever done. It just Alexis, 181 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: the actor is just beautifully captured enough. The Rosen brothers 182 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: just came in. Oh, they said, they didn't know your name? 183 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: Why wann't I You're least in a building from them 184 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: from that from the day, And if you doing mr 185 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: this with the day, how come you're not standing in 186 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: one of the sweets? You know, when you have someone 187 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: do so many favors, you just want to pay them 188 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: back in silence. If you've read the article, much of 189 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: the article is that episode, and I really just love 190 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: the way it plays out. I'm really proud of the 191 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: way that came out well in the article itself opens 192 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: with that, with her sliding the bill across the counter 193 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: at the hotel. And I think the whole framing of 194 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: this case is really so largely through nup side. It 195 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: really is. And why was the limited series format as 196 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: opposed to a feature or as opposed to an ongoing series. 197 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Why was that the most appealing for telling this story. 198 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: I knew we were going to make a show. I 199 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: didn't know how many episodes it was gonna be. I 200 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: didn't know if it was going to be a limited series, 201 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: or if it was going to be a longer running series, 202 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: or what we were going to do with it. I 203 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: just knew we were going to make a show out 204 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: of it. And at a certain point it felt like 205 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: maybe we would do ten episodes. We ended up making nine, 206 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: And that really just came from the layout of deciding 207 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: that we were going to do it. In the formation 208 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: of interviews, why I met Jessica, and that was really 209 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: the biggest, most interesting part of this for me, was 210 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: you know. I talked to Jessica on the phone, you know, 211 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: when we were sort of bidding to get the article, 212 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: and she really wanted to remain a part of the process, 213 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: and that was exciting to me. And she asked if 214 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: she could be in the writer's room, and that was 215 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: also exciting to me. I was like, sure, could be 216 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: in the writer's room. And I think for a lot 217 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: of people that might have been threatening. To me, it was. 218 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: It was exciting because I knew that she, more than 219 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: anybody else, was inside the story. She knew all the players, 220 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: She had spent time with everybody, so that I remember 221 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: flying to New York to meet her after we'd gotten 222 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: the article, and once I'd spent time with Jessica, it 223 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: was really simple to discover, like how we were going 224 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: to tell the story, because the minute you meet Jessica, 225 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: you realized that you want to stand in the reporter's 226 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: shoes to tell the story the way she reported the story, 227 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: the way she figured out how she was going to 228 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: tell the story. It was so interesting to me. From 229 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: writing a sort of a fan letter to Anna Delvi 230 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: in prison two being pregnant while she was reporting the story, 231 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: to having to go to writers to visit Anna. All 232 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: of those things were so intriguing to me, the way 233 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: she was involved in it and how deeply embedded she 234 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: became in telling that story. So I knew we were 235 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: going to tell it through that. I also knew that 236 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: Anna is an unknowable person, and so the best way 237 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: to tell the story was going to be through the 238 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: interviews and Jessica's reporting, or creating a character based on 239 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: Jessica to do the reporting of Anna and about Anna, 240 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: because we were never ever really going to get to 241 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: know who Anna was for real, because Anna was never 242 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: going to reveal herself. Right, It's interesting when you're talking 243 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: about Jessica, who is such an incredible writer. I admire 244 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: her greatly. You had almost like two layers of a 245 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: cinematic experience. You had her own life. You had the 246 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: story that she had created, which is so visual. It 247 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: was great stuff. There was great stuff to work within, 248 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: great stuff to invent. What was great was discovering how 249 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: many other viewpoints there were, and you know, we really 250 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: wanted to get those in, and we wanted to be 251 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: able to take in and allow Anna to be seen 252 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: through all the eyes that really needed to be there. 253 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: And there were some stories that were just too good 254 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: to be to be missed, that had to be told. 255 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: That I enjoyed to tell so many delicious moments that 256 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: you couldn't have made up. Well maybe you could have, 257 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: but you can't imagine that they really happened. Yeah, I 258 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: like to say, there are some things in there that 259 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: are true that we can't admit are true. There's some 260 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: things in there that are made up. There's a reason 261 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: why we say the disclaimer on the front the way 262 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: we do, because we're being very careful about how we 263 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: how we make clear what's portrayed. People really opened themselves 264 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: up and told us things, and some things were true, 265 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: some things weren't true, and some things are people's interpretation 266 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: of events. And it all works really well together. And 267 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: by the way, it encompasses the essence of who Anna 268 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: is right there, you know what I mean. Everything's true 269 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: until it's not, basically in Anna's world. Okay, we're going 270 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: to break here for a moment and be right back. 271 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody. Let's continue with the interview. If Anna 272 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: is unknowable and we sort of know that from the outset, 273 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: what kind of conversations did you have with the writers 274 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: about how to portray her, because there is the risk 275 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: in making her so unlikable that we almost don't care 276 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: what happens to her. But you have done such a 277 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: great job in creating empathy for her. But also there's 278 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: so many moments where I just don't understand her at all, 279 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: and it kind of leaves our head spinning the entire series. 280 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: So tell me about those conversations and don how you 281 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: drew her as a character. I mean, I think you'd 282 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: draw her the way you draw any character. She's a human, 283 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, she has humanity, She's somebody who wants something, 284 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: and I don't know for me, like, yes, there are 285 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: many things that she did wrong, but I like to 286 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: look at her from the point of view of she 287 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: was a very very intelligent girl, who had very strong ambitions, 288 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: who was severely underestimated by a lot of people, who 289 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: was treated badly by a lot of people, whose moral 290 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: compass may be very off, but who felt passionately about 291 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: being seen and was trying really hard to be seen. 292 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: And you can see that, you can see how sort 293 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: of lost she is. And when you look at how 294 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: she treats the different people in their tellings of the story, 295 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: and you see who she treats, how how well or 296 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: how badly she treats certain people. You begin to understand 297 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: a little bit more about who she is and recognize 298 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more about who she is. I think 299 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: the trial episode is one of my favorites simply because 300 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: you really begin to understand how important it is to 301 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: her to be taken seriously. Right. What's interesting to me 302 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: throughout the show and even in the trial itself, her 303 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: sort of psychological profile is never really dissected in a 304 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: public way, you know, what could be informing these behaviors, 305 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: and and I think it's interesting because she does seem 306 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: like she's gone through trauma. We get to know later 307 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: on that some of the things she experienced as a 308 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: young person. Did you have a profile of her in 309 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: the writer's room? Did you try to understand that maybe 310 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: there's more going on there than just ambition, maybe misplaced ambition? Well, 311 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: you do. I mean there's the episode where you watch 312 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: Vivian go back and try to dissect Anna's childhood. Right, 313 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: we have plenty of information about Anna's childhood and her 314 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: journals and all of that stuff. You know, I'm not 315 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: a big fan of you know, here's a basic obvious 316 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: psychological profile of somebody, and the reality of the situation 317 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: is the obvious things that you think about who Anna, 318 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: who Anna is and why she is the way she 319 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: are not true. They're just not. We, like everybody else, 320 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: had our research done where you know, we went and said, 321 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: like why would a person do this? And why would 322 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: a person do that? They all sound really nice, but 323 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: none of them had anything to at any basis. In fact, 324 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: there's lots of mystery there. There are lots of holes 325 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: left open, and we left them open for a reason. 326 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: We opened the doors and we point to what could 327 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: have been. But what's true and what's not true are 328 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: they're up for interpretation and that and that is part 329 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: of what makes the show special is that it really 330 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: does leave it to us to think about it for ourselves. 331 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: And I think that's nice that we aren't given she 332 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have a diagnosis, you know, there isn't this like 333 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: perfectly wrapped a reason for her actions. And I think 334 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: that's what makes it compelling. And also by the way 335 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: she's not she's not a serial killer or something. We're 336 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: not watching her murder bodies and and you know where 337 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: their skin where it makes seat out of people's skin. 338 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: She's just a person, and honestly, I've said this at 339 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: thousand times. She hasn't done anything worse than most Wall 340 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: Street guys. So what diagnosis are we looking for here 341 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: other than ambitious, you know, hopeful person following the American dream. 342 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: She hasn't done anything. We really want her to be 343 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: a bad person. I think people really want to label 344 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: her as a horrible person. I'm not sure why. There's 345 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: a lot of behaviors that she doesn't when you really 346 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: dissect them and really look at them, I see people 347 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: engage in them all the time in your regular small 348 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: town in New York City. There, I see people engage 349 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: in these behaviors all the time, and I don't think 350 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: that they're not they're especially diagnosable. I think that they're 351 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: just a lot of it is just human behavior, and 352 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: we only call it out when it becomes public and 353 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: gets you into trouble. That is very, very true. So 354 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: you mentioned the trial, which is very important to the 355 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: story and was very impactful to your storytelling process. I'd 356 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: love to talk about that. It took place in New 357 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: York starting March. What was the timing of the trial 358 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: in relation to where you were writing the show, and 359 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: tell me about how you got writers in the court room, 360 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: because I know that was a very big piece of 361 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: year puzzle. One of our writers, Matt Byrne, who wrote 362 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: the episode the trial episode, used to be a journalist, 363 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: and so we sent him because we thought he would 364 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: be the perfect person to go and we needed somebody 365 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: to be there. What was great was the writer's Room 366 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: was still in session. We were working on the show 367 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: while the trial was going on. I remember doing a 368 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: dramatic reading of the of Todd's opening statement for the 369 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: Writer's Room as we got the transcripts of the trial. 370 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: Everyone lies a little bit, whether it's on a resume 371 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: or sales pitch or on social media. We think the 372 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: world has changed with social media. Every person has become 373 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: a brand, an image fed out into the world. A lie. 374 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: But what was true for not was true for Sinatra. 375 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta fake it till you make it. It 376 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: was really interesting to have the trial be going on 377 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: and for us to still be working on the show, 378 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: not knowing how we were going to end the show, 379 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: because for a while we were gonna we were like, 380 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: maybe we'll end before we hit the trial. Then the 381 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: trial started and we got no, We're gonna wait until 382 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: the trial is over. We were writing episodes with an 383 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: ending that we didn't know what the ending was. We 384 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: were like me with and it goes free if and 385 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't go free? We we weren't sure. And my 386 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: favorite part was, you know, there's that scene where you 387 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: see Sciberia sitting at their desks and they're like getting 388 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: the verdict. Matt was texting us, slacking us the verdict 389 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: as we were all sitting We're all sitting around a 390 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: computer like waiting to hear like account one, what did 391 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: you get? I account two? Like that was real, that 392 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: really happened with us. We were all like, what's happening? 393 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: Attempt to steal property from Fortress Investment, Inc. Exceeding one 394 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: million dollars? Guilty or not guilty? Come up, come up, 395 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: come up, type faster, type of let's go. We were 396 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: sort of going crazy waiting to find out. But it 397 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: was also you know, it put us in this very 398 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: interesting position because at that point we were so invested 399 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: in every little piece of it. By then, because we 400 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: had waited through the whole trial to try to figure 401 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: out what the end of the show was going to be. 402 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: And then felt this like overwhelming sense of let down 403 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: or done simply because it was over um And what 404 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: surprised you most about the verdicts. I think that we 405 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: were surprised that she was found guilty on so many counts. 406 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: And I think it was because of this idea that 407 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: she had to be dangerously close to getting the money, 408 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: should be dangerously close to doing it, and we all thought, 409 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: in order for her to be dangerously close, they're really 410 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: saying that she really was good at what she was doing. 411 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: She really she really was actually swindling them, And that 412 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: is an admission that we weren't sure that these men 413 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: would have been willing to make about this young girl. 414 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: So that was interesting. We also felt vindicated in our 415 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: own little way that she well half of us did. 416 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: It was like a battle in the room that she 417 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: was found not guilty of swindling Rachel. That is a 418 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: polarizing decision for sure. It was very interesting. We had 419 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: a lot with a lot of sympathy for Rachel in 420 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: terms of of who that character was and of really 421 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: humanizing her. I was very careful that I didn't want 422 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: us to be We're not demonizing another woman ever, no 423 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: matter what, and there's not like there's a humanity and 424 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: ever least one of these characters. But there was a 425 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: feeling for the some half of us that like, she 426 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: handed over her credit card willingly. You know she had 427 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: been along for this ride. She handed it over willingly, 428 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of us were like, I would never 429 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: have done that. And then there are a lot of 430 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: people were like, but I would have. So it was 431 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: very it was a very interesting debate in our in 432 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: our writer's room, right, A lot of the writer's room 433 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: was what would you have done in that situation if 434 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: you had been with Anna? And I think that's what 435 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: was fascinating for us in almost every episode, it was 436 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: if you had been with her? Would you have gone 437 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: along with her? Right? Well, and so much of the 438 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: show is how each of us is prone to wish fulfillment. 439 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there isn't anyone watching the series who wouldn't 440 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: have wanted to be part of this for at least 441 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: a little bit, right, go to the restaurants, go to 442 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: the parties, experienced that energy. We're all prone to this 443 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: type of behavior, I think, or maybe we don't want 444 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: to admit it. Well, no, I mean I think, what's 445 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: wonderful is like, for instance, Nora, Nora has everything, Nourra 446 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: is wealthy beyond belief. She's swindled out of tons of money. Um, 447 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: but even Norah falls for it. And what Nora falls 448 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: for is how Anna makes her feel. And I think 449 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: for all of them, that's what it is. Every last 450 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: person who is quote unquote swindled by Anna or taken 451 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: in by Anna or pulled into Anna's you know, web, 452 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: it's because Anna makes them feel a certain way. They 453 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: all come away from Anna forever changed. How do you 454 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: think she makes them feel? Exactly? For everybody, it's different, 455 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. For some people it's Anna 456 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: needs to be taken care of. For some people, it's 457 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: that wonderful moment for Norah where she's sort of saying, 458 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: it's so important that we help, you know, young emerging women. 459 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: You know the great episode where she's got the the 460 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: businessman and he's sort of she's standing in for his 461 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: idea of what his daughter should be. Right exactly, there's 462 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: Casey and how Anna is really the perfect version of 463 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: the client that needs remolding and reshaping. Everybody has something 464 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: that they're getting from Anna. They all get something from her, 465 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: and in the end, if you ask me, she's the 466 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: only person left with nothing. Everybody else got something. That's 467 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: a really wonderful point. She is a proxy for each person, 468 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: and her genius is knowing what those people need from 469 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: her in that moment, and so if there's something to 470 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: take away is sort of that intuition that she has 471 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: about reading people in an instant, the way she connects 472 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: with Nef. She sees Neff as a as an aspirational artist. 473 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: She knows that they have that in common, they want 474 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: more than what they have, and she spots it in 475 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: an instant and it really is fascinating how she does 476 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: it over and over and over again. And that's why 477 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: she is compelling. And maybe that's why people don't like her, 478 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: because she is so talented. Yeah, I mean it's also 479 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: white people like her. I mean, it's it's fascinating and 480 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: possibly is it her gift or is it her curse? 481 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: Because is it necessarily a talent that she has or 482 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: is it a talent that people have put upon her? 483 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: You know, people look at Anna and see what they 484 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: want to see, which I think is also very interesting. 485 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: It's it's a brain vendor too. It really forces you 486 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: to think throughout and I think that's a real gift, 487 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: and I just want to congratulate you and your team 488 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: on such a great job. Thank you, thank you so much, 489 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. Shanda going to 490 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: be here. Hey, there, don't go anywhere a for this break. 491 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: We'll hear from the one and only Jessica Pressler on 492 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: her own unique introduction to Anna Delbi. Hey, welcome back. 493 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: Now let's hear a little bit from Shaunda's closest confident 494 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: in creating the series, Jessica Pressler, the journalist who wrote 495 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: the New York Magazine story that inspired inventing Anna. Here 496 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: she is chatting with Shawda Rhymes. How did you first 497 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: hear about Anna? So? I first heard about Anna in 498 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: the fall of seventeen, the fall late winter of I 499 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: was thinking about doing a book about female con artists 500 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: because I had written the story about a group of 501 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: former strip club workers that became hustlers. Hustlers everybody hustlers. 502 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: Go through that movie, check it out, and there are 503 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: elements of that that I thought were really intriguing. I 504 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: was thinking about like doing something about female con artists 505 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: in general, you know, just kind of different ways that 506 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: female connuters work. That are different than men. Anyway, I 507 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: called this photographer that I had met during Hustlers. His 508 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: name is Stephen Hirsch, and he um hangs out at 509 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: like Manhattan criminal core and takes pictures of people for 510 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: the tabloids. And he also has this like kind of 511 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: great editorial mind, like he has done these like photojournalistic 512 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: series about you know, the bunnies living on the bunny 513 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: ranch in Nevada and people kidnapped by aliens, which are 514 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: topics that entrust me um. So I was like, is 515 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: there anyone interesting that's come in any like kind of 516 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: female like criminals that, And he was like, oh, you 517 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: should check out this woman Anna. And I looked it up, 518 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: and the things that struck me as odd about it 519 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: were that Fortress the Hedge Fund was mentioned in the complaint, 520 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: which is not like a brand name that tent six 521 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: year olds want to be socialites are generally aware of. 522 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: And also that she went to see Warren Buffett like 523 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: she took a plan to go see like a nine 524 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: year old in Nebraska. Those two facts felt very strange 525 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: to me, and so I wrote her a letter and 526 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: U and she called me a few weeks later and said, 527 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm not want to be socialized, and that's kind of 528 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: how it went from there. I remember just being riveted 529 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: asking you for like what did the letters say? You know? 530 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: When did she respond? Like how do you get somebody 531 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: to respond to you? You know when you want to 532 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: interview them in prison? Like that whole thing, and wondering 533 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: how do I make this visual? And it was really 534 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of cool to get from you. Jessica would write 535 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: me these like very elaborate, incredibly entertaining emails that would 536 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of tell me how a journalist works and how 537 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: she did her job and the story of meeting Anna. 538 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: And what was great about it was is I feel 539 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: like I learned a ton of details about hopefully how 540 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: to be a journalist. I hope we got it right, 541 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: and I put them all in the show. I just 542 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: got so um kind of obsessed with it. And I 543 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: think that that's became my way in really, which is 544 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: why the show became the show that was told through 545 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: the eyes of a journalist, because I couldn't I couldn't 546 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,239 Speaker 1: see it any other way. Once you started telling me 547 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: about how how you did your work. That's so funny. 548 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: That is a question I was going to ask you 549 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: actually because I remember reading in the New York Times. Um, 550 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: I'm not going to pretend that I didn't memorize it, 551 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: that you read the story while you were on vacation 552 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: and that you like saw it immediately. I remember there 553 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: was a line that was like I slept better. I 554 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's nice. Um. So I'm curious, like 555 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: if that original vision that you had for the show 556 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: remained or if it changed how it changed. Some parts 557 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: of the original vision remained. I mean, I thought for 558 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: a long time that the whole story would be the article, 559 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like would be said at 560 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: the hotel, would be that piece of it. But then 561 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: I started talking to you, And the more I started 562 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: talking to you, and the more I talked to you, 563 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: the more I realized that a Anna is unknowable in 564 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. There were so many different versions 565 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: of Anna to be found. But also there was so 566 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: much more to the story. Like you know, there was 567 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: what happened in Morocco. There was what happened once we 568 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: got to trial. There were all these things that was 569 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: what happened when she went to California. There were all 570 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: the things that happened afterwards that I thought were super interesting. 571 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: So it sort of expanded the story so much that 572 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: I really wanted to find a way in that it 573 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: made sense. And then, you know, we would talk about 574 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: these things that just captivated me, some of these things 575 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: that were sort of inspired by facts, but we're basically, 576 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, sort of fictionalized. Which were episodes two and 577 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: three that just captivated me so much that I felt 578 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: like we had to grab those because I felt like 579 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: they explained so much of who Anna is or how 580 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: she came to be. Who am I? This club, this 581 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: foundation will be who I am, what I am. I 582 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: have to build this so artists and people like me 583 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: finally have a home somewhere safe, applies where they belonged, 584 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: a place where I Okay, so the first time you 585 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: met Anna in person, I know, it wasn't anything like 586 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: what I wrote. She didn't insult your fashion. What was 587 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: it like for you the first time you met Anna 588 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: in person? You know, I remember being like, this is 589 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old girl, This is just an year 590 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: old girl. And we had a fairly normal conversation and 591 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: she said a lot of things that sounded very reasonable. 592 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, What's what's different is that I did not 593 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: convince her to go to trial. She told me in 594 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: our first conversation that she wanted to go to trial, 595 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: that she thought her case was very sloppily put together, 596 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: and that she wanted to go to trial, and even 597 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: though her lawyers thought that it was scary to go 598 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: to trial, she wanted the truth to be out there, 599 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: or you know, she wanted to to see if she 600 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: could win a trial, and she kind of made a 601 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: case for it that sounded very reasonable. And I had 602 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: the first of many experiences with Anna where I left 603 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: being like, oh, that was like totally reasonable and she's 604 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: totally normal. And then once I was out of the 605 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: Riker's complex in the situation, I was like, wait a minute, 606 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: that's just like Banana's Like why would you why would 607 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: you go to trial? What do you mean like that 608 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: the case is sloppily put together? You literally forged? Why 609 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: are transferred statements like why would she want to take 610 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: this to trial? It makes sense when you're talking to her, 611 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, she's magnetic. I think a lot of the 612 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: things that she says in the first episode when we 613 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: first meet her are things that she said in the 614 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: video interview, because I found them fascinating. Macaw is pent 615 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: in a public picture of me as a dumb, shallow, 616 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: superficial person who's just after money. I want you to 617 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: know that's not me at all. I'm trying to build 618 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: a business. There were so many things that she said 619 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: that sounded so reasonable. Literally, like I felt like we 620 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: couldn't even put in on the show. I was like, they, 621 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: I don't think gonna be believed me. When you said like, 622 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: what are you happy at? Happiest? And she said right now, 623 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: right now, I'm happiest right now, And I'm like, you're 624 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: in prison. How can you be happiest right now. Yeah. 625 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: I still haven't gotten my head around that one. But honestly, 626 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: I think once again, she's did her own version of 627 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: what a character is and how she wants to be 628 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: seen in real life, and so it makes her very unknowable. 629 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: That's it for now. We'll hear much more from Shaunda 630 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: and Jessica's conversation in a future episode. Thank you for 631 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: joining us for the premiere of Inventing Anna the official podcast. 632 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: Tune in next week when I break down key moments 633 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: from the show with Emmy nominated actor Anna Klumsky, who 634 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: plays journalists Vivian Kent I think she does like shiny things, 635 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: and I do think that she This is backstory stuff 636 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: you know that I built, but like she was driven 637 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: by the idea that well, if I just cracked the code, 638 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: they'll let me in. If you're enjoying this show, please subscribe, 639 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: share with your friends, rate, or leave us a review. 640 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: All that good stuff. And if you haven't finished binging 641 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: Shawnda Land's Inventing Anna on Netflix, please go do that. 642 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: We really don't want to spoil it for you. Inventing 643 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: Anna the Official Podcast is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, 644 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: Lauren Homan, Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and 645 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show is produced and 646 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna the Official 647 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: Podcast is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with 648 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit 649 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 650 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.