Speaker 1: Find Down with Janey Kramer and Michael Coffman an I'm
Speaker 1: her radio podcast. You know, we had to get Mark,
Speaker 1: our producer, to make sure he was on today because
Speaker 1: we got the juice today.
Speaker 2: Well it's I mean, I yeah, it's like unfortunate, unfortunate,
Speaker 2: but what unfortunately comes with the unfortunate unfortunately of the
Speaker 2: territory with.
Speaker 1: The unfortunate truth of the unfortunate past?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Mark is like, right now.
Speaker 4: I'm so intrigued right now because both have kind of
Speaker 4: smiles on your face and maybe this isn't so serious, but.
Speaker 3: Then it.
Speaker 5: Seems I'm getting a serious vibe.
Speaker 3: I was, I was.
Speaker 2: Hyperventilatingly bawling, hyper a lot of Ellie's I'm adding into this. No,
Speaker 2: I was, I was bawling last night. And actually Mike
Speaker 2: about five minutes before we started this goes, you know,
Speaker 2: we've learned our lesson sharing things that are not healed,
Speaker 2: and you know, if we don't want to talk about it,
Speaker 2: we don't have to. And I was like, no, I'm like,
Speaker 2: it's it is what it is. It's just it's unfortunate.
Speaker 2: So do you want mean to start go for it?
Speaker 2: So on a few days ago, I got a DM
Speaker 2: saying that Mike cheated, and the reason why it caught
Speaker 2: me off guard was because the very first time I
Speaker 2: found out Mike cheated on me was through a DM. Sure,
Speaker 2: so automatically I'm in freak out mode because I think
Speaker 2: and I told my therapist that I to sout with
Speaker 2: her the other day, and you know, I told her,
Speaker 2: I was like, I almost have this weird PTSD where
Speaker 2: I I go through my dms almost looking to see
Speaker 2: if I'm if the truth is going to prevail in
Speaker 2: a DM again, Like I have this like fear when
Speaker 2: I go through my dms, but then I also have this, well,
Speaker 2: I don't want to miss it, like if this is
Speaker 2: my the sign or that it shows me again that
Speaker 2: he cheated. So it's just said Mike cheated again. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: And I looked at the person's profile had zero followers, zero,
Speaker 2: so it's like they just made this, like they just
Speaker 2: made this account, so I reached out, which could go
Speaker 2: either way.
Speaker 4: That could be, oh, it's just a crazy person, or
Speaker 4: this could be legit. It kind of shows on both sides.
Speaker 2: Of the coin exactly, And so that's where I was
Speaker 2: kind of like stuck, and I called my friend Sarah,
Speaker 2: who was there from me from like from D Day,
Speaker 2: Like she's the one who told me to like look
Speaker 2: into Mike cheating. And I center this and I was like,
Speaker 2: what do I do? Because you know, we just got
Speaker 2: freaking our book out in New York Times Bestsellers. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this it's like you just said, it's
Speaker 2: either someone is trying to mess with me and pop
Speaker 2: this bubble and get in my head, or it's true.
Speaker 2: And I said, and this the really sh sucky thing
Speaker 2: about it is that my default can't go to there's
Speaker 2: no way, Like That's where I told Mike last night,
Speaker 2: like that's where it like hurts the most, where I
Speaker 2: can't just go I trust him a thousand percent he
Speaker 2: would never do that. And I think that's where that's
Speaker 2: where it's stung. And that's where I'm like, am I
Speaker 2: really going to start having this DM conversation with this
Speaker 2: girl or whoever it was?
Speaker 3: And I did.
Speaker 2: I can, so I started dming this person and again,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, you know, they're telling me things
Speaker 2: that maybe could make sense or it maybe could be wrong,
Speaker 2: you know, and I don't know. You know, she's said
Speaker 2: a few things about his hometown. I'm like, okay, well
Speaker 2: they can just look that up on inner the Internet.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: She said something about he's got a secret device, which
Speaker 2: has always been a fear of mine, that maybe he
Speaker 2: has some secret device that he talks to other people on.
Speaker 5: Yea.
Speaker 2: So she's telling me all these things. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: well that could be valid, or that could be coret,
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm like, am I talking to just
Speaker 2: some sad person and wherever that's just trying to make
Speaker 2: me upset? Or is there some truth to this? And
Speaker 2: so I sat with it for a few days before
Speaker 2: bringing it to Mike because.
Speaker 1: The thing is too though. This person is saying isn't
Speaker 1: even speaking on their behalf. They're speaking on their friend's behalf.
Speaker 1: They're saying that their friend is the one that I'm
Speaker 1: cheating with or whatever. This person isn't even like saying
Speaker 1: that they're the person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's like she, you know, she's going to
Speaker 2: be so upset with me. I just feel like you
Speaker 2: need to know. And you know, her and Mike talk
Speaker 2: all the time, and they think they're going to be together,
Speaker 2: and you know, they have unprotected sex, and Mike just
Speaker 2: says that you are, that he's just living in this
Speaker 2: world of control that you've created and he's trying to
Speaker 2: get out and all these things. I'm like, well, maybe
Speaker 2: that's how he truly feels. And I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: and I just I'm so I just start to kind
Speaker 2: of unravel. But I start to just be like, well,
Speaker 2: show me the proof, because here's the deal at the
Speaker 2: end of the day. And I've told this to Mike.
Speaker 2: You got proof, show it to me, you know, And
Speaker 2: I can't be an idiot and to not say, Okay, fine,
Speaker 2: let's see the proof. Prove me wrong, prove you know,
Speaker 2: prove the lie wrong. And you know, she kept saying, well,
Speaker 2: she won't let me or she'll get so mad. She's
Speaker 2: upset with me that I'm even saying anything to you,
Speaker 2: but good luck. Just know that, like you're not going
Speaker 2: to find the secret device. And I'm just like, so
Speaker 2: what do I do? And this is another thing I
Speaker 2: told them. I was like bawling last night. I was like,
Speaker 2: I searched the freakin' house.
Speaker 3: Oh you know, I'm like.
Speaker 2: For like not like the entire but I'm like looking,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what am I doing? Like this is like
Speaker 2: She's like, I'm going crazy, And so I went to
Speaker 2: my therapy office or whatever and sat down with her
Speaker 2: to talk about it before I talked to Mike about it.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I don't want to be looking under
Speaker 2: the bed or going in his drawers trying to find
Speaker 2: the secret device that this who knows if it's even real.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, how do I deal with this? And
Speaker 2: you know, because I'm like, we're coming off a high
Speaker 2: and now this, but I can't ignore it completely, you know,
Speaker 2: because of our history, and I can't really one thousand percent,
Speaker 2: like there's not enough stuff in the bank to trust
Speaker 2: his word one thousand percent because of this stuff with
Speaker 2: last year, and that sucks. And I'm like, so I'm
Speaker 2: just kind of like stuck, and you know, he's he
Speaker 2: noticed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, I noticed something was up with
Speaker 1: with Jana the last couple of days, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: I was prying the other day more and more. He
Speaker 1: kept saying, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, and I just I know,
Speaker 1: I know you just like you know me, like we
Speaker 1: know each other. And so finally Jana was just kind
Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, I need to I need
Speaker 1: to process this with my therapist and I need to
Speaker 1: find out some more information and figure all this out.
Speaker 1: And so I had to, you know, and I respect
Speaker 1: and appreciate and I affirmed Jana last night for doing
Speaker 1: the work around this that she's done and handling the
Speaker 1: way she has because she would have been so easy
Speaker 1: for her as soon as she got this to come,
Speaker 1: mf me and.
Speaker 2: Oh, in the past, I've grabbed his phone and thrown
Speaker 2: it across the room and shattered.
Speaker 1: It, right, So it was you know, So I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, she's doing her work. I can't use that
Speaker 1: against right now. I can't get frustrated because she's not
Speaker 1: talking to me. So I was like, Okay, I have
Speaker 1: to do my work now and not be codependent and
Speaker 1: try to take on her feelings. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: and how to just walk away and sit with it?
Speaker 1: And you know, once she finally told me last night, man,
Speaker 1: it like it it crushed me because it sucked, like
Speaker 1: I feel the same as her, where I'm like, it
Speaker 1: sucks that she can't default to trusting me. It sucks
Speaker 1: that I've done what I've done in the past to
Speaker 1: create that in a relationship. Right now, my hope is
Speaker 1: that years down the line, you know, if something like
Speaker 1: this happened again, she'd be able to bring it to
Speaker 1: me and we would almost be able to like laugh
Speaker 1: about it, you know, because there is that much trust
Speaker 1: in the bank. But you know, I didn't fault her
Speaker 1: at all for questioning me, for still trying to figure
Speaker 1: these things out, you know. And then when she told
Speaker 1: me she searched the house, it's just like my heart
Speaker 1: just sank because you know, I just felt so bad,
Speaker 1: like so bad for my wife, like to have to
Speaker 1: that you have to feel these things, and that it's
Speaker 1: a direct correlation to the things I've done in the past,
Speaker 1: you know, And it's which it sucks, man. It's just
Speaker 1: people like this, you know. I know, Jana's still kind
Speaker 1: of wrapping her head around this and trying to still
Speaker 1: gather information even though this person person and deleted that account.
Speaker 1: And when you tried to.
Speaker 2: Because Mike basically said like, let's ask for her number,
Speaker 2: let's call her, and yeah, and they they deleted the
Speaker 2: their account, and I you know, and I also like
Speaker 2: sent like a thing saying like, well, I'll send the
Speaker 2: lawyers after you this defamation and you know, or whatever
Speaker 2: we could figure out because and I think the therapist
Speaker 2: said too. She's like, unfortunately, this isn't going to be
Speaker 2: the last time this comes up. It wasn't the first,
Speaker 2: and that's not going to be the last, especially because
Speaker 2: we have put our relationship out there. And here's the deal.
Speaker 2: You know, when you go on those tabloid sites, they're like,
Speaker 2: she hasn't he's gonna cheat again. That's different than when
Speaker 2: someone says he's cheated on you, he's done it again.
Speaker 2: He is, yeah, And it's like that makes me kind
Speaker 2: of stop more in my tracks and to be like,
Speaker 2: if you have the proof, just give it to me,
Speaker 2: but don't, don't don't come on my page. And and
Speaker 2: that's just.
Speaker 3: That's just wrong.
Speaker 2: So whoever you are or that's it's just wrong and
Speaker 2: it's mean and it's calculated, and it just feels so ugly.
Speaker 4: And it's tragic that somebody out there just thought that
Speaker 4: would be funny, right, or thought there'd be fun And
Speaker 4: do you think she'll respond like, oh my gosh, she's
Speaker 4: responding like the the whole mindset of that is just
Speaker 4: you know, we've talked endlessly about social media right now
Speaker 4: and what assessed pool of the comments can be and stuff,
Speaker 4: But really it's really depressing that somebody feels like that
Speaker 4: would be a good time to try to mess with
Speaker 4: your relationship, Like that question, why not go to Mike initially?
Speaker 4: Did you consider before you even responded to this person?
Speaker 4: Did you consider going to Mic right away?
Speaker 3: Why I didn't?
Speaker 2: And I think why he says he hopes that we
Speaker 2: can get to that place is because usually there is
Speaker 2: truth to something like that.
Speaker 4: She was.
Speaker 1: Scared of me lying yeah, sure, which I totally understood.
Speaker 2: I don't blame right, I mean I had, you know,
Speaker 2: the first Instagram girl a million years ago, you know,
Speaker 2: reached out and I was like, hey, Mike, and I did.
Speaker 2: I was like, I just got to text a DM
Speaker 2: saying that some girl you slept with some girl and
Speaker 2: he's like.
Speaker 3: What, No, I would never.
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, in that same breath, I was like,
Speaker 2: can you show me some proof? And she sent messages
Speaker 2: and I was like, then what is this?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 2: So it's like it's that because you know, and then
Speaker 2: just last Christmas being like are you on anything?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: And he was lying.
Speaker 2: So it's that's the unfortunate part, and that's where we're
Speaker 2: going to have to get to I hope that we
Speaker 2: can get to that place of years down the line
Speaker 2: where I can I can just go to him and
Speaker 2: not believe it for a second.
Speaker 5: Why do you believe him now? Just then?
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to cause trouble, but because she vanished
Speaker 4: like that, because she was clearly causing problems.
Speaker 2: It's not that I I don't think she fully believes
Speaker 2: me yet I have a hard time believing it, but
Speaker 2: I also don't. At the same time. What my therapist
Speaker 2: helped me kind of talk about was that I brought
Speaker 2: it up. He has now told me his truth. It's
Speaker 2: now something that I can't It's not on me to
Speaker 2: be detective or control or it's now in I honestly,
Speaker 2: it's in God's hands where if there's the truth will
Speaker 2: show eventually, and that truth may be that it was
Speaker 2: real or that it wasn't, and over time, hopefully it
Speaker 2: will be that it wasn't and he'll continue, you know,
Speaker 2: he'll come to me with things or be honest and
Speaker 2: continue to be honest, and that way I can be
Speaker 2: more quick to trusting him. But in the season that
Speaker 2: we've been in the last five years, unfortunately it's not.
Speaker 3: There that quick.
Speaker 2: So do I believe it fully, No do I still
Speaker 2: have a percentage of doubt a little bit, just because
Speaker 2: I think that I'm human just have that.
Speaker 1: Trauma from the past. I mean, this is the first situation.
Speaker 2: Like this, and I think would also kind of put
Speaker 2: a cherry on the top. Was the other day I
Speaker 2: was on my Catherine's going to hear this the first
Speaker 2: time on here. I was on my manager slash best
Speaker 2: friend's phone and I was doing an audio recording on
Speaker 2: her phone and she had like not many audio recordings,
Speaker 2: and I just saw Mike Discovery day and I was
Speaker 2: like what And I was like, oh my god, this
Speaker 2: is we recorded when we confronted Mike, And like an idiot,
Speaker 2: I listened to it, you know, and just like reliving
Speaker 2: like all the like. It was just like it was
Speaker 2: just heavy. But then hearing it be like no, so
Speaker 2: it's just that didn't help with the emotions.
Speaker 5: Is there any chance?
Speaker 4: And I'm always looking at the bright side that this
Speaker 4: is actually going to eventually be a positive step in
Speaker 4: the sense that we're going to get past this And
Speaker 4: then the next time somebody on Instagram does this, it's
Speaker 4: not going.
Speaker 5: To trigger you like the last ones did.
Speaker 4: It's going to trigger the emotions of oh, no, another
Speaker 4: person's trying to screw up our relationship because look here
Speaker 4: we are giving a lot of attention to this, this
Speaker 4: awful person on your podcast. Somebody else might try to
Speaker 4: do it. Maybe that's going to make you trust Mike
Speaker 4: Moore and the DMS less because we've gotten past this hurdle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the hope. Yeah, that's the hope.
Speaker 1: Is that I mean for me, I will say it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's nice to be in the like, it's
Speaker 1: nice to actually be truthful, you know, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like for someone who's so used to lying
Speaker 1: and being caught in a lie and being that way
Speaker 1: so much of my life, especially in relationships and in
Speaker 1: our marriage, you know, as much pain as I feel
Speaker 1: and shame around the whole situation and seeing the hurt
Speaker 1: that Janet is going through and myself feeling the pain
Speaker 1: because of trauma from the past, the relief is, well,
Speaker 1: I know the truth. I know my truth, and so
Speaker 1: it is a relieving feeling, not having that like kicking
Speaker 1: the gut feeling of like, oh, when's something gonna come
Speaker 1: out that's gonna prove this right? And you know, what
Speaker 1: and so that's for me, that's just the relief, but
Speaker 1: I understand Jana can't have that yet, and so I'm
Speaker 1: hoping again to reiterate, I'm hoping that this is just
Speaker 1: a building block of trust, that the truth will show
Speaker 1: itself in all its form that Jana can accept, and
Speaker 1: then we move on to the the next time, because
Speaker 1: like her therapist said, like you said, Mike, this probably
Speaker 1: won't be the last time. We kind of have a
Speaker 1: target on our backs. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So I think it's how we and you know what
Speaker 2: my therapist is like, get a plan in place for
Speaker 2: when this does happen next time, and you know.
Speaker 3: Ask for the proof. But also you know.
Speaker 2: How he handles it too, He's like, let's call it
Speaker 2: like no, no, I don't want to say like people
Speaker 2: don't do it because we don't want to call you,
Speaker 2: but I mean.
Speaker 1: We wouldn't call you with our numbers, so don't and.
Speaker 2: We would probably you know, get some lawyers involved. So
Speaker 2: it's not going to be a fun process.
Speaker 1: But it's just to say hi. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I just I think it's just one of those
Speaker 2: things where you know, hopefully I'm always open to the
Speaker 2: truth and to proof, but I'm not open to bullshit.
Speaker 4: It's tough because you can't prove a negative. As hard
Speaker 4: as Mike would like to try and prove it to,
Speaker 4: you can't prove he didn't do something that's so difficult
Speaker 4: to establish. Has there been any uh, look at my messages,
Speaker 4: look at my DMS? Or not even bothering because you
Speaker 4: think this is a second device anyway, allegedly. Wait, what
Speaker 4: do you mean, Like I'm saying, is he being overly
Speaker 4: forthcoming with all of his private things to kind of
Speaker 4: try to prove the negative?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I might, Yeah, he said, look look through my messages,
Speaker 4: look through my DMS, like, I assure you nothing's happening.
Speaker 3: But she said he deletes them.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, And I was like, let's get the phone bill,
Speaker 1: let's look at the you know what I mean, like,
Speaker 1: give us an else on her, give us a number,
Speaker 1: a separate account.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's so.
Speaker 2: Hard to prove, and honestly, that just sounds exhausting.
Speaker 1: It does sound exhausting.
Speaker 2: So I just am like, Okay, I gotta I will
Speaker 2: accept all things that I can control, and everything else
Speaker 2: will just show its face and the truth will come
Speaker 2: out one way or the other.
Speaker 3: But that's that.
Speaker 5: It's a bump in the road, and I think that's
Speaker 5: all it's going to be.
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was hard, but for sure, And again I know
Speaker 1: I firmed you last night, but you were so adult
Speaker 1: around all of this, and I just I commend the
Speaker 1: hell out of you because that can't be easy, that
Speaker 1: those triggers and the trauma and all of that, Like
Speaker 1: anybody would nobody would blame you from going off and
Speaker 1: shooting from the hip. And so I commend you for
Speaker 1: the work that you did, and I think for us,
Speaker 1: the work that we did around the situation and that
Speaker 1: will continue to do. I think we've handled it individually
Speaker 1: and together the best we can.
Speaker 3: So not a bump, it's a win.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So thank you who ever did.
Speaker 2: No, thank you to whoever did that, because that just
Speaker 2: showed that I can trust my husband.
Speaker 1: So thanks, but more so because you're not We're not
Speaker 1: gonna let you. We're not gonna let you win.
Speaker 3: No way.
Speaker 1: Anyways, let's take a break and shake that one off.
Speaker 1: I love you, love you all right. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: we're so excited about our guests today because we're on
Speaker 1: opposite spectrums of them, So there's gonna be a lot
Speaker 1: of questions.
Speaker 3: But I mean, yes, but also like they live our dream.
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding your dream. Oh my god, Stuned, there's
Speaker 1: a whole other topic we get to talk about.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm right, you guys.
Speaker 1: We have the amazing divorced couple Ben and Nikki, who
Speaker 1: are the authors of our Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2: Hi, guys, I and apparently we just found out that
Speaker 2: this is Mike's dream, so not my dream.
Speaker 1: We were just talking, we were just talking about the
Speaker 1: other day and just hypothetical, We're like, oh, we'd hope
Speaker 1: we would be friends. Ah, I'm sorry, I'm myself hypothetically.
Speaker 6: I don't think anybody gets like it has the decision
Speaker 6: to get divorced and says, okay, how are we going
Speaker 6: to hate each other for the rest of our lives
Speaker 6: and live our lives with you know, all this toxic
Speaker 6: energy forever?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 6: It just people don't deal with the emotional side of
Speaker 6: the divorce before they deal with the business side, you know.
Speaker 6: So I don't think anything anybody premeditates. Let's not get
Speaker 6: along and let's hate each other for the rest of.
Speaker 1: Our lives, for sure, So give us us and our
Speaker 1: listeners a little bit of your background. Do you guys
Speaker 1: have any kids? And how long were you married and
Speaker 1: when did you get divorced.
Speaker 7: We were married seven years. We have one child together,
Speaker 7: So then Ben has two other children that I consider
Speaker 7: mine now even though I don't have to have I
Speaker 7: don't have to have them twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 7: I get to send them back. We got divorisd what
Speaker 7: when our son was about three and a half.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So does it have anything to do with the
Speaker 2: seven year itch at all?
Speaker 3: You think No?
Speaker 7: I think art started itching about year four.
Speaker 8: We just started going.
Speaker 6: I think our itch started before we even got married.
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, looking back on it, we
Speaker 6: went through every red light, every stop sign, every blinking
Speaker 6: railroad track and just plopped through it. And we had
Speaker 6: in our twenties at the dating in a couple of
Speaker 6: years and it was like time, you know, it's.
Speaker 8: Time to get married.
Speaker 6: And we got married, and then we were always trying
Speaker 6: to fit that square peg in the round hole. Instead
Speaker 6: of realizing that it doesn't fit, we just kept on
Speaker 6: trying to push it and make it fit. And then
Speaker 6: we're like, Okay, well maybe we'll have a kid and
Speaker 6: that's will make it fit, of course, and obviously would
Speaker 6: never take that away because it's the best thing that
Speaker 6: had happened to either of us. But you know, it
Speaker 6: was one of those things that once we have our
Speaker 6: kid and we were always our marriage was was always based.
Speaker 7: On quarantine for two weeks home with his mother.
Speaker 8: There's that, not his dad, thank god.
Speaker 6: But it's the if onlys our marriage was always the
Speaker 6: if onlies, if only Nikki would do this, if only
Speaker 6: Ben would do this, you know, and not living in
Speaker 6: the present.
Speaker 2: What was y'all's conflict when you when you were married, Like,
Speaker 2: what what eventually led y'all to, you know, to going
Speaker 2: down the divorce option.
Speaker 7: I think for us, we got being in love and
Speaker 7: loving each other mixed up and there was like we
Speaker 7: never really had any conflict. We were just like best
Speaker 7: friends and we were like just sort of like two
Speaker 7: ships passing in the night where we were more like
Speaker 7: you know, pals living together instead of like lovers.
Speaker 6: And then I think that, you know, again the square
Speaker 6: peg thing is, but instead of realizing that that we
Speaker 6: had gotten in love and loving each other confused, we
Speaker 6: actually started getting more and more mad that that square
Speaker 6: peg would fit in a round role and more resentful,
Speaker 6: and so you know, at the end, it wasn't you know,
Speaker 6: let's get divorced, Let's hug it out, we love each other,
Speaker 6: Let's write a book called Our Happy Divorce. You know,
Speaker 6: we had, you know, all the drama that you know,
Speaker 6: marriages don't end on winning streaks, right, it's not you know,
Speaker 6: people know, hey, you know, we had a fight last night.
Speaker 6: Let's get married. You know it was it was years
Speaker 6: of you know, talking about it, me moving out, me
Speaker 6: moving back in, and then we made that decision. But
Speaker 6: you know, one thing that's important in our story, in
Speaker 6: our book is we don't really talk about what happened
Speaker 6: because at the end of the day, the reason we
Speaker 6: can sit here and talk about and you know, I
Speaker 6: can say how much I love my ex wife and
Speaker 6: she's my best friend, is because there's no villain in
Speaker 6: our story, right, there's.
Speaker 8: No bad guy.
Speaker 6: There's It would make a terrible Hollywood movie, right because
Speaker 6: there's no We We both have accepted that we had
Speaker 6: equal parts in the ending of our marriage and to
Speaker 6: to to make it and it would take to a break.
Speaker 2: Are there any regrets at all with you know, not
Speaker 2: trying and giving it more? Maybe more therapy or more
Speaker 2: not that you I'm sure you guys gave it a
Speaker 2: ton of effort.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that y'all did it at all.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, is there any you know, sleepless
Speaker 2: nights or any regrets? Like, ah, man, I wish I
Speaker 2: would have done this or tried this.
Speaker 7: I think I think one of the things that you know,
Speaker 7: divorce couples don't realize is like we've done I'm going
Speaker 7: to pat us on the back. We've done a really
Speaker 7: good job of making this as easy and as like
Speaker 7: great as we could for our son. But like, even
Speaker 7: how when was that trip like three years ago you
Speaker 7: took asheron that He looked at you and he said,
Speaker 7: you know, Dad, this divorce is really hard. And you
Speaker 7: know he was what fourteen, he was probably fourteen, and
Speaker 7: you know, Ben at that point wanted to look at
Speaker 7: him and go, you know, you're a brat, Like did
Speaker 7: you know what we've gone through to make sure that
Speaker 7: your life is so like the way it is now?
Speaker 7: But I mean that, like that's one of those things
Speaker 7: that just kind of like digs at you. Because my
Speaker 7: parents are still married, they've been married for fifty two years.
Speaker 7: Whether they should still be married or not regardless, but
Speaker 7: they're still married. So I never had that. And so
Speaker 7: to hear him say, you know, for him to be
Speaker 7: able to say something like that, knowing all the work
Speaker 7: we put in, and like the relationship that Ben and
Speaker 7: I have and the relationship Ben's wife and I have,
Speaker 7: and the relationship Ben has with my husband, Like, it
Speaker 7: really kills a kid. And I think that's one of
Speaker 7: the hardest things for me that I was like, that
Speaker 7: was the number one thing I thought, I'm never I
Speaker 7: don't ever want to do that to my kid.
Speaker 6: But right there is a lot I mean, that is
Speaker 6: the one thing I don't think that. I mean, I
Speaker 6: think I can honestly wholeheartedly say that Nick and I
Speaker 6: tried everything to try to make the square bag fitting
Speaker 6: a round hole. And I hate to keep on using that,
Speaker 6: but you know, we went to therapy, you know, NICKI
Speaker 6: I think she would have tried more. I think that's
Speaker 6: fair to say, right because of the ill of this,
Speaker 6: she would have stayed together, I think for Asher, which
Speaker 6: I think is all the wrong reasons. And I think
Speaker 6: his parents, you know, that's a tough decision.
Speaker 8: I killed you. So we're good. So literally but but
Speaker 8: you know, I think as parents, it's like, at least.
Speaker 6: I had to come to the decision what I'd rather
Speaker 6: have two parents together who are miserable, who are two
Speaker 6: parents who are who are happy? Because what does that teach,
Speaker 6: you know, our son about growing up in a loveless, affectionate,
Speaker 6: less marriage.
Speaker 8: You know, I don't think that's a good example of
Speaker 8: his parents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, Mike and I kind of and
Speaker 2: I think to like, you know, I know he joked
Speaker 2: in the beginning, but we had kind of talked about that.
Speaker 2: Were sometimes like in the very beginning of our situation,
Speaker 2: I stayed because of our daughter, and it's like, eventually
Speaker 2: it's not healthy, Like you guys said to stay just
Speaker 2: for your kid. Now, do we want the kids to
Speaker 2: be under one roof? Absolutely, like that's the dream white
Speaker 2: picket fence goal. But if it's not healthy for either one.
Speaker 2: And sometimes when we do joke about it, I'm like,
Speaker 2: you would probably be happy with someone else, you know, maybe,
Speaker 2: and you know, I mean, but I'm like, you wouldn't
Speaker 2: have these restrictions or these boundaries or whatever, And you
Speaker 2: know I would, I wouldn't be you know, flipping beds
Speaker 2: wondered about where's this hidden phone.
Speaker 3: I don't know where's the phone.
Speaker 2: But you know, at the end of the day, we're
Speaker 2: still you know, we're there's that love that's still there,
Speaker 2: and that's how we know.
Speaker 3: We like that.
Speaker 2: We keep fighting for our relationship. But when that love goes,
Speaker 2: You're right, it's not it's not healthy for the kids.
Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, it's like, that
Speaker 2: would have killed me to NICKI if I heard that,
Speaker 2: because I'd have been like, you have no idea, Like
Speaker 2: this has all been for you, like for the benefit
Speaker 2: or for you, and it's like, oh, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 2: Like when you said that, I'm like, that must have
Speaker 2: just stung so bad.
Speaker 6: It's stung in My first reaction was like Nicky said,
Speaker 6: it's like you little s o B.
Speaker 8: You have no idea because I grew up in a
Speaker 8: I grew up.
Speaker 6: In a high conflict divorce situation and completely different. But
Speaker 6: then you know, then I was able to sit back
Speaker 6: and not you know, at least in my older age,
Speaker 6: I've tried to not react as much at first, but
Speaker 6: think about it, and that's an empathy for him that yes,
Speaker 6: it's not his choice.
Speaker 8: It would never be his choice.
Speaker 6: Even today, he says, you know, we get along, so well,
Speaker 6: what's you know, what's the deal.
Speaker 8: So, you know, but just the.
Speaker 6: Logistics of having two homes, right, the logistics of forgetting
Speaker 6: your math book at your mom's and I mean just
Speaker 6: that that that in itself is hard. So I was
Speaker 6: able to say, you know what, You're right, it is hard,
Speaker 6: you know. And we live seven houses down from each other,
Speaker 6: so if he forgets his math book, he can just
Speaker 6: walk over and get it. But you know, so you know,
Speaker 6: we we we've we've tried to make it as as
Speaker 6: soft as the landing as possible for him, and I
Speaker 6: think we've you know, done a pretty.
Speaker 8: Good job at that.
Speaker 1: How is that relationship with because Ben, you're remarried, we're
Speaker 1: both you're both are married, you know, because the only
Speaker 1: people I can think of are like our friends Kyle
Speaker 1: and Sarah and then Kat his X where it's like
Speaker 1: those we have these one friends that they're the only
Speaker 1: ones I've seen that really get along as well as
Speaker 1: I've ever seen a you know, a split family per
Speaker 1: se get along with new wives, ex wives, you know,
Speaker 1: old children, current children, and so it seems like you
Speaker 1: guys have been able to do that.
Speaker 3: How it looks nice? And sometimes I'm like, man, that
Speaker 3: just looks yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1: Oh, I just get you as a friend, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's easy just to be a friend. Sometimes, How did
Speaker 1: you guys explain like the work behind that, because I'm
Speaker 1: sure you didn't. Just like, Okay, everyone's great in friends.
Speaker 1: So no it.
Speaker 6: You know, we we use the term we faked it
Speaker 6: till we made it, and that is, you know, as
Speaker 6: honest as we can get it.
Speaker 8: You know, Nikki started dating Chad or husband.
Speaker 6: Now we were I knew Chad he was, you know,
Speaker 6: around when we were married, and and you know that
Speaker 6: is a shot to the ego in itself, much less
Speaker 6: having another man around my son is a shot.
Speaker 8: To the ego.
Speaker 6: But you know, I this just is this one thing
Speaker 6: that I always remember. I was coaching Asher's baseball and
Speaker 6: Nicki and Chad.
Speaker 8: It was the first time that I really was had
Speaker 8: seen him around. I knew they were dating.
Speaker 6: But you know, after the game, Asher ran over and
Speaker 6: gave Nicki and Chad a hug, and I remember like
Speaker 6: walking over there going, Okay, what's best fresh, what's best fresh?
Speaker 6: What's best fresh?
Speaker 8: Meanwhile, you know you know. I mean, guys like egos
Speaker 8: just much less. I know this guy.
Speaker 6: Now my son's running over to him, meeting him, and
Speaker 6: it's like and then I just put on my my
Speaker 6: big boy pants, you know, and I put on a
Speaker 6: fake smile. It probably was the most awkward while in
Speaker 6: the history of the world.
Speaker 8: But I went over.
Speaker 6: The first thing I did was give Chad a hug,
Speaker 6: and I gave Nicki a kiss, and I just made it.
Speaker 8: As normal as possible fresh.
Speaker 6: You know. And then you know, the next time it
Speaker 6: was a little easier. The next time it's the but look,
Speaker 6: it's still not easy today. This is fourteen years later.
Speaker 8: I love Chad, you.
Speaker 6: Know, and you know, they went down fishing in the
Speaker 6: Keys early in summer and Asher came.
Speaker 8: He goes, oh, Chad and I are going fishing. My
Speaker 8: first reaction still is like, oh, you know, it's like
Speaker 8: a little gut punch, you know.
Speaker 6: Fourteen years later, we wrote a freaking book called Our
Speaker 6: Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2: But it's still not matter, which, by the way, you
Speaker 2: can get at our happydivorce dot com. There's support, you
Speaker 2: can resources, blogs, and where you can also buy the book.
Speaker 3: Our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 7: The hardest part for me was like listening to my
Speaker 7: son tell me that like some other woman was putting
Speaker 7: him to bed at night, and like, uh, that was like,
Speaker 7: you know, to a mother's heart, it's just like it's
Speaker 7: like someone's stabbing you. But a funny Asher story was
Speaker 7: when he before I had met Nadia, Ben's current wife,
Speaker 7: Asher I called. I would call him every night to
Speaker 7: say a night to him when he wasn't with me,
Speaker 7: and I called over there one night and I was like,
Speaker 7: you know, I just want to, you know, saying good
Speaker 7: night to you, and he said, hey, mom, I said, what,
Speaker 7: he's probably about four I have at this point, and
Speaker 7: he said, mom, do you know Nadia? And I said, no,
Speaker 7: I know who she is, but I you know, mommy
Speaker 7: hasn't met Baudia yet. And he goes, well, here, I
Speaker 7: think you should talk to her and he puts her
Speaker 7: on the phone.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 7: But you know that was his way of saying, you
Speaker 7: know what, there's this girl that I'm hanging out with,
Speaker 7: that daddy's hanging out with, but I think you should
Speaker 7: know this girl too. And he was like smart enough
Speaker 7: to kind of go, okay, let me just just break
Speaker 7: the ice here and let mommy really like, you know,
Speaker 7: let them talk.
Speaker 8: Wow, they forced the introduction smart.
Speaker 2: What are some of the what are some of the
Speaker 2: tools in the book that if our listeners are divorced, like,
Speaker 2: what can they learn from them?
Speaker 8: Well?
Speaker 6: I think the one thing is in sports say, we're
Speaker 6: not doctors, we're not lawyers, we're not therapists.
Speaker 8: We're just people with the lived experience, you know.
Speaker 6: And uh, you know, my lived experience was a pretty high,
Speaker 6: like I said, a high conflict divorce.
Speaker 8: And just to show.
Speaker 6: You how big of a deal and what big.
Speaker 8: Emotions this was.
Speaker 6: When I left the house, I left angry, I left bitter,
Speaker 6: I left pointing the finger at Nikki it was all
Speaker 6: her fault. And I went out, and I hired this big,
Speaker 6: fancy lawyer and was going to go down the same
Speaker 6: path as my parents, despite having that experience, you know,
Speaker 6: despite having that, you know, being in that toxic environment
Speaker 6: and getting handed a bill, emotional bill to pay for
Speaker 6: something I had no choice in.
Speaker 8: But yet I was going to do that to my
Speaker 8: son again.
Speaker 6: But luckily colmer heads prevailed eventually, and I was able
Speaker 6: to realize that I knew where that path ended and
Speaker 6: wanted to find a different path.
Speaker 8: But I think the different.
Speaker 6: Path that we found was and this is gonna sound apathetic,
Speaker 6: and it's gonna sound apathetic on purpose, but divorce is
Speaker 6: just a business deal, right, You're just splitting assets, you're making,
Speaker 6: you know, a financial thing. The problem is that it
Speaker 6: gets mixed with every every negative emotion you could possibly have.
Speaker 8: And you know, the only.
Speaker 6: Advice that I would give people that we did, that
Speaker 6: we did write is that we dealt with the emotional
Speaker 6: side first. We dealt with our stuff first, individually, our
Speaker 6: side of the street, and we both agreed. And that's
Speaker 6: why there's no villain because we both have equal parts
Speaker 6: in the ending of the marriage, just like we have
Speaker 6: equal parts. And that's why when we wrote this book,
Speaker 6: I said the only way I'm writing it was if
Speaker 6: Nikki doesn't with because it takes two to make a relationship,
Speaker 6: and it takes two to ruin a relationship. So if
Speaker 6: any piece of advice that I can give people is
Speaker 6: there's no prize for getting divorce the quick.
Speaker 7: You need to take care of your stuff before you
Speaker 7: can take care of each other's.
Speaker 1: For sure. I have a question for both of you, sorry, Ben,
Speaker 1: real quick, Nikki. I'll start with you because I'm interested
Speaker 1: because you guys have a similar dynamic. Where like Ben,
Speaker 1: you said you come from a divorce parents, Janna comes
Speaker 1: from divorce parents. Nikki, My parents are like yours. My
Speaker 1: parents have been married thirty plays years. Did you guys individually,
Speaker 1: was that an added pressure? Was it like Ben more?
Speaker 1: Were you more normalized to it so you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll just get divorced. Nikki, did you feel more pressured
Speaker 1: because of your parents being married so long? I'm just
Speaker 1: curious about how that impacts.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 7: Mean, and I have three sisters, two like, and they're
Speaker 7: both married, and I think that I honestly, I am
Speaker 7: the first person in my family to get divorced, like
Speaker 7: even like extended family, I don't think any of there's
Speaker 7: I don't think there's anybody so and I'm the baby
Speaker 7: of the family. So for me to like have to
Speaker 7: go to my parents, who you know, are semi religious
Speaker 7: and like, you know, believe in the thing to be
Speaker 7: of marriage and all that stuff. But like for me
Speaker 7: to have to go to them and say hey, by
Speaker 7: the way, that, I think that was almost scarier than
Speaker 7: getting divorced himself. I was scared of death.
Speaker 6: It's funny because it's, as you said, as it was
Speaker 6: easier for me, and it was actually, you know, it's
Speaker 6: like I grew up around alcohol and drug use as
Speaker 6: a kid, and I was like, you know, and then
Speaker 6: turned into an alcoholic and attic and luckily got over.
Speaker 8: That or get sober pretty young.
Speaker 6: But it's not something like I sought out to do, right,
Speaker 6: I mean, it wasn't like even though even though you know,
Speaker 6: and I told Nikki this, it's in the book, you know,
Speaker 6: on our wedding day, I was looking at the mirror
Speaker 6: I had hair at the time, I was doing my hair,
Speaker 6: and I you know, it wasn't just cold feet. It
Speaker 6: was an honest look into my soul saying you shouldn't
Speaker 6: do this. This isn't the right you know, this isn't
Speaker 6: the right thing to do. But yet I went through
Speaker 6: and you know, we talked about those red flashing lights
Speaker 6: and the you know, railroad tracks, and but it wasn't
Speaker 6: even with that. It wasn't something that I ever intended
Speaker 6: to get divorced, you know, or or ever thought that
Speaker 6: I would.
Speaker 2: But you know, how was the writing process Because if
Speaker 2: you weren't divorced, then do you think you would have
Speaker 2: because I know with Michael and I we were because
Speaker 2: we just you know, we wrote a book and it's
Speaker 2: we our writing styles are just very different. So it
Speaker 2: was you know, maybe it was easier you guys being
Speaker 2: divorced so you didn't have to write together.
Speaker 9: Nope, Nikki, Yeah, I mean, I can't even tell you
Speaker 9: how many times I told Ben, I'm to stick this
Speaker 9: book up your butt, Like how many times I'm like,
Speaker 9: I have so many times I would call them and go,
Speaker 9: I'm not doing your stupid book.
Speaker 6: But that's because we're going to fighting up because anything but.
Speaker 7: Two, I mean, you have to rehash a lot of
Speaker 7: stuff when you're trying to like dig right.
Speaker 8: But yeah, the idea was and it's not original. I
Speaker 8: don't know if you guys ever saw the.
Speaker 6: Series The Affair, Yes, and how they took one situation
Speaker 6: and you know, each half an hour of the show
Speaker 6: was you know, one person's perspective, and so that's the
Speaker 6: sort of framework we took. So we alternated chapters. Uh,
Speaker 6: And I never I read in her chapters, but I
Speaker 6: never changed it. You know, it was her story, it
Speaker 6: was her experience. She never changed mind, no matter what
Speaker 6: I said, no matter what I did, and we just
Speaker 6: you know, we just sort of meshed it together. But
Speaker 6: then to show you how this sort of relationship with
Speaker 6: Chad and Nadia, our spouses, had evolved, this was just
Speaker 6: gonna be Nicky my book. And then, you know, because
Speaker 6: it took so long, and NICKI, you know, I had
Speaker 6: to go fishing for the book up my butt so
Speaker 6: many times that the relationship had evolved so much that
Speaker 6: we were like, wait a second, this happy divorce has
Speaker 6: to include Naughty and Chad, So we had them right.
Speaker 8: Chapters in the book.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 6: And then our son and then our son had written
Speaker 6: an essay to get as high school acceptance or the
Speaker 6: essay was about somebody he admired and he wrote about
Speaker 6: his mom.
Speaker 8: And dad about what they've accomplished.
Speaker 6: And we didn't, you know, handcuff him and you know,
Speaker 6: to the bed, make them and make him right.
Speaker 8: It actually did out of his own position.
Speaker 6: So that essay and a chapter is in the end
Speaker 6: of the book and sort of puts a bow on
Speaker 6: the whole thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. What have you guys take since you're
Speaker 1: both remarried, what have you guys taken into your new
Speaker 1: marriages that you learned from being together.
Speaker 6: Well, I married the right person that I get, no question,
Speaker 6: no questions like you asked if it was the right decision.
Speaker 6: Like I look at Nicki and Chad, and Nicki never
Speaker 6: looked at me like she looks at Chad. She never
Speaker 6: held I mean, but the same thing's probably true with
Speaker 6: Naughty and I mean, it just was like Nicki and
Speaker 6: Chad are meant to be together. Nadia and I meant together,
Speaker 6: And now I can see it without any anger, without
Speaker 6: any resentment, but nothing but love, you know, I mean
Speaker 6: nothing but love for her and for Chad, because you know,
Speaker 6: all I got to do is, you know, be honest
Speaker 6: with myself and swallow my ego and say, look, she never.
Speaker 8: Looked at me like that.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: Well, we respect the hell out of you guys, because
Speaker 1: dealing with such a topic that fifty percent of marriages
Speaker 1: deal with. I mean, I hope everyone goes to our
Speaker 1: Happy Divorce dot Com and does their research on how
Speaker 1: to be an adult through this process, because yeah, this
Speaker 1: is amazing. So thank you guys, Ben and Nikki so
Speaker 1: much for being on the show with us.
Speaker 3: Yeah it's really enlightening.
Speaker 1: So don't forget to get their book, Our Happy divorce
Speaker 1: and you can get that at our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks all right? Mark got an emails, BIB we do.
Speaker 4: Indeed, this is an anonymous emailer. My boyfriend and I've
Speaker 4: been dating for four years. I'm twenty eight, he's almost
Speaker 4: thirty four. After three years of dating, I expressed I
Speaker 4: would like to get engaged. He was very adamant. He
Speaker 4: wanted to live together first, so last the summer we
Speaker 4: moved in together. We decided to resign the lease in
Speaker 4: June and I said, how about a six month lease.
Speaker 4: Is that enough time to decide if this is going
Speaker 4: to work, because I don't want to resign if, you know,
Speaker 4: not engaged. June came and went, we're still not engaged.
Speaker 4: I expressed how this made me feel and said maybe
Speaker 4: we need to go our separate ways. He said no, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: no no, We'll be engaged by the end of summer.
Speaker 4: No ring shopping, no nothing thing. End of August not engaged.
Speaker 4: I've sat to resent him. It's really taking a toll
Speaker 4: on a relationship. It's now mid September as I write this,
Speaker 4: and I once again brought up the fact that maybe
Speaker 4: we aren't meant to be. He says, no, no, no, no, no no,
Speaker 4: We'll be engaged by your birthday, my birthdays in October.
Speaker 5: How am I supposed to believe him? We haven't done
Speaker 5: any shopping, no discussing.
Speaker 4: I'm really struggling if this is meant to be or
Speaker 4: if he's just playing with my feelings and calling my
Speaker 4: bluff because I've given in the past two times by
Speaker 4: staying together. I'm really struggling. I'm thinking of ending things.
Speaker 4: I'd love to know all of your thoughts.
Speaker 3: This reminds me of Sarah. How old is she again?
Speaker 1: Twenty eight?
Speaker 3: I think?
Speaker 2: I mean it kind of reminds me of the Sarah
Speaker 2: you know, Sarah Gwetski Gwski situation. My fear, though, is
Speaker 2: that he is He's just trying to find the right time,
Speaker 2: and then you don't want to you don't want to
Speaker 2: blow it either. I mean, it's quarantine. It's kind of
Speaker 2: been hard to go ring shopping. It's kind of hard
Speaker 2: to do things. It's kind of hard to plan something
Speaker 2: amazing for you.
Speaker 1: Excuses.
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe, but I see it more. I almost
Speaker 2: see it more as give it, give it another six
Speaker 2: months and just let it. I know I'm saying this
Speaker 2: like I'm the biggest hypocrite in the world. But you
Speaker 2: don't want to blow with something. You don't want to
Speaker 2: blow a surprise like you don't want to you don't
Speaker 2: wanna like, just enjoy you're twenty eight. Give it six
Speaker 2: more months, that's my and then be like, hey, look
Speaker 2: like I'm I'm getting frustrated and I need some time
Speaker 2: to think.
Speaker 1: She's going to be twenty nine this month.
Speaker 2: She's fine. I was thirty and single. She's fine. She
Speaker 2: can wait six more months. That's just my advice.
Speaker 3: Don't blow it.
Speaker 2: Don't because if he's the one, But then again, if
Speaker 2: you're so easy to leave, maybe then he's not the
Speaker 2: right one.
Speaker 1: I don't think she's easy to leave, Otherwise she would
Speaker 1: have left. I think she's just trying to force his
Speaker 1: hand and he's calling her bluff. So she just has
Speaker 1: to be prepared. She anonymous. You have to come to
Speaker 1: terms with your timeline, whether it's by the end of
Speaker 1: this year, six months from now, twelve months from now,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and that you can realistically see yourself
Speaker 1: leaving if it doesn't happen by then, And so maybe
Speaker 1: give him to another six months. Say Look, no, I've
Speaker 1: said this a lot. I am leaving because I got
Speaker 1: to move on with my life. I'm twenty I'll be
Speaker 1: twenty nine. He's thirty four. They've been together for four years.
Speaker 2: Sarah and Ty were together for like seven years.
Speaker 1: Right, they also started dating at like twenty two.
Speaker 3: It's seven years.
Speaker 2: Look, and but I will say what Sarah did is
Speaker 2: she basically was like, I'm not going on the hockey.
Speaker 2: So you have just to start saying like, I'm not
Speaker 2: doing this right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's what I'm saying. She just has to figure
Speaker 1: out what that time is and go from there.
Speaker 3: Okay, what's next, Christina.
Speaker 4: My husband recently admitted to me that he's at a
Speaker 4: sexual attraction to another woman that we know for the
Speaker 4: past six years. He told me he's never acted upon it,
Speaker 4: and I do believe him. He's been brutally honest with
Speaker 4: me and very communicative. He told me he loves me
Speaker 4: so much that he feels satisfied with our relationship, but
Speaker 4: still has an attraction to this person.
Speaker 5: We plan on entering therapy together.
Speaker 4: But I guess I feel like I don't know how
Speaker 4: to move forward from here. If it's been this long
Speaker 4: six years. It's clearly not going to go away. So
Speaker 4: how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
Speaker 4: stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together.
Speaker 4: I appreciate any advice of both of you and how
Speaker 4: you battle those insecurities and feeling like you're enough for
Speaker 4: your spouse.
Speaker 3: That's tough.
Speaker 2: I don't like that might just be too honest for me.
Speaker 2: Is there such a thing I think there is? That's
Speaker 2: a little I don't want to know. It's a little
Speaker 2: too honest for me, Like if I told you I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm really attracted to my whatever it.
Speaker 5: Is, someone you both know for a long time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like.
Speaker 2: I just don't think that. But then again, that's being honest.
Speaker 2: But then that's kind of too honest. How can I
Speaker 2: be such a hypocrite with saying it's too honest? I
Speaker 2: feel like that's so hypocritical.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's hypocritical. It's like it's kind of like,
Speaker 1: do I look fat in the stress? You know what
Speaker 1: I mean?
Speaker 2: But also maybe it's his way of saying I need
Speaker 2: to say something or I might be tempted to cheat, Or.
Speaker 1: Is it his way of fishing to see if she'll
Speaker 1: have a threesome.
Speaker 3: Oh of course that's where you go.
Speaker 1: No more, No, I'm just saying it started coming to me.
Speaker 1: I'm like, if he's that brutally honest, does he I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, does he have some other agenda?
Speaker 2: I mean maybe I would.
Speaker 1: Have to know more about about both of both of them.
Speaker 1: I need to know more of their history. I need
Speaker 1: to know his history. I need to talk to the guy.
Speaker 1: Then I could figure it out.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's I've known like a guy that's just like very
Speaker 2: honest and says like, all this girl's hot in front
Speaker 2: of you know, his wife, and but it still just
Speaker 2: feels a little too much. But if it's fine with
Speaker 2: your partner, but obviously it's not fine for her, that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Well saying someone because Okay, you and I have had
Speaker 1: this discussion, you know, over the years, and we you
Speaker 1: understand that there's beautiful people exist in this world, right
Speaker 1: like it is what it is acknowledging someone like if
Speaker 1: you say, oh, yeah, she's pretty, like what we're watching
Speaker 1: a show or whatever. It's like, yeah, she's a pretty girl.
Speaker 1: She yeah, whatever. But saying that there's sexual attraction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's basically saying I want to them is very different.
Speaker 1: And how would you feel comfortable?
Speaker 2: Like and I don't even say that someone's attractive like
Speaker 2: that one time when that guy came with the lost dog,
Speaker 2: like I I got caught in that.
Speaker 1: But when Janna really thinks someone's attractive, she can't speak.
Speaker 1: This was a handsome guy.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you want to say it, that's fine.
Speaker 1: I mean I caught you and who was it, Sarah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Sarah's just swooning over this guy.
Speaker 3: Not swooning.
Speaker 2: He was looking for a lost dog and we were
Speaker 2: just helping him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, swooning. But she says, you know, she asked,
Speaker 1: how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
Speaker 1: stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together?
Speaker 1: If you the confidence is just well, if he told
Speaker 1: me that he's thinking about it, like he like you said,
Speaker 1: like he's the king of honesty, He'll tell you like
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like, yeah, you don't have
Speaker 1: to wonder because he's he's gonna tell you clearly that's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, now, the thing about wondering if he's thinking
Speaker 1: of her while there intimate together that. I think that's
Speaker 1: just something that you just kind of remind yourself to
Speaker 1: be in the present in and not let your head
Speaker 1: go there.
Speaker 5: Who knows what any of us are thinking in those moments.
Speaker 2: Right, It's Mike's probably thinking about Marvel movies. I'm probably
Speaker 2: Captain America. What's what's the girl's name? I mean Captain Marvel.
Speaker 2: I'm Captain Marvel girl probably with him?
Speaker 3: Great? All right, well not no, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1: It's that's a wrap.
Speaker 3: That's wrap. Love you guys, See you next week later