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Speaker 1: Last month, after a number of legal setbacks in the courts,

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Speaker 1: President Trump issued a third version of his travel band.

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Speaker 1: Many legal commentators have said they think this version of

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Speaker 1: the president's order has a better chance of surviving litigation

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Speaker 1: than the previous orders did. But yesterday to federal judges,

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Speaker 1: one in Hawaii and one in Maryland, issued nationwide orders

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Speaker 1: preventing enforcement of this third version of the band. So

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Speaker 1: the legal fight is clearly not over. Here to talk

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Speaker 1: with us about yesterday's rulings is Eric Larson, a Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: News legal reporter. Eric, You've been following this for quite

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Speaker 1: some time now, Uh, and judges often have different Uh,

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Speaker 1: they've had some of the judges have looked at this

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Speaker 1: over the over the months, have had different views on

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Speaker 1: why there were problems or not with the order. What

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Speaker 1: did these two judges say in in issuing injunctions. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing a certainly a little bit of a pattern

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Speaker 1: here where regardless of whatever changes the Trump admenustration makes

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Speaker 1: to these orders, they continue to be flawed in the

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Speaker 1: eyes of these judges in various ways. So, Uh, the

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Speaker 1: first order that came out was from Hawaii, and the

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Speaker 1: judge there found that, uh that the third travel ban

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Speaker 1: still violates the Immigration and Nationality Act because it discriminates

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Speaker 1: against individuals based on their nationality. Pretty straightforward, And then

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Speaker 1: the next ruling from Maryland UH came to a similar conclusion,

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Speaker 1: but also added again that at Trump's comments about Muslims

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Speaker 1: during the campaign and after the election suggested that there

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Speaker 1: was more to this travel ban than just straight security interest,

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Speaker 1: that it was really more of a Muslim ban, which

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Speaker 1: is what he had said he wanted during the campaign.

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Speaker 1: So those words still coming back to Haunton UH all

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Speaker 1: these months later, no matter what they seemed to be

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Speaker 1: doing to UH. The actual warding of the travel ban

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Speaker 1: to appease lawyers, Eric tell us how the judge in

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Speaker 1: Hawaii found that the administration didn't show a link between

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Speaker 1: a person's nationality and the threat that he or she posed,

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Speaker 1: even though the administration tried to do that with showing

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Speaker 1: how the particular country would cooperate or not, and other

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Speaker 1: factors such as that. Well. One one thing that the

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Speaker 1: judge had pointed out with some inconsistencies in the way

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Speaker 1: that the ban was applied to different countries, noting that,

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Speaker 1: for example, some UH immigrant pieces would be denied, but

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Speaker 1: students would not be denied and things like that, where

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Speaker 1: the judge pointed out, well, if this everyone in this

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Speaker 1: country is deemed to be a potential threat, then why

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Speaker 1: would you let anyone committed from the country, whether there

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Speaker 1: were students or not. They just pointed out various inconsistencies

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Speaker 1: like that, and again pointing out that to ban everyone

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Speaker 1: from these countries would essentially be a hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: million people, and the judge says that you can't show

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Speaker 1: that that is actually a benefit to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Another judge pointed out the argument that was made that uh,

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Speaker 1: no one from these countries has carried out a terror

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Speaker 1: attack on US soil in forty years UM, and that

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Speaker 1: some other countries that are not on the band also

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Speaker 1: have problems with sharing information UH in immigration and they

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Speaker 1: studed Belgium as an example. So, UM, it's it's just

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Speaker 1: some inconsistencies according to the judges. Eric the judge in Hawaii, UM,

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Speaker 1: seems to have wanted to see assessments by the Department

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Speaker 1: of Homeland Security that would have backed up the administration's

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Speaker 1: security arguments. Here what happened on that in that regard

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Speaker 1: uh the judge and asked to see them and they

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Speaker 1: said no, they didn't want they were essentially secret, and

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Speaker 1: the assessments we were not shared. Um, they wanted to

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Speaker 1: I think they wanted to judge to take their word

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Speaker 1: for it. Then. Um, again, that sort of leaves it

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Speaker 1: to the judge to uh come up to the his

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Speaker 1: own conclusions. At this early stage, you know that it

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Speaker 1: is a temporary order and the cases clearly hasn't There

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Speaker 1: hasn't been any trial or merits considered yet. So so, Eric,

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Speaker 1: what is the Justice Department's response to these orders? The

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Speaker 1: Justice Department has indicated that they will appeal. Um. Not

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Speaker 1: not terribly surprising, and the White House also says they're

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Speaker 1: confident that they will prevail if it ever reaches the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Uh. So they're defiance against the judges and

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Speaker 1: they're they've vowed to keep fighting. Um. And it remains

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Speaker 1: to be seen what will happen once we get a

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Speaker 1: full trial on on these allegations. Well, speaking of that

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Speaker 1: kind of untiming, Eric, what you know, what kind of

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Speaker 1: timing can we expect? This has been going on for

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Speaker 1: a while, It's obviously a high priority for the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: and they're raising serious questions about national security here. That

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Speaker 1: have to be considered. How you know what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen in a reasonable period of time or the court

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Speaker 1: is going to be hearing these cases more quickly. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to say. Because the previous executive orders were over

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Speaker 1: a temporary travel band and they were only supposed to

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Speaker 1: be ninety days. Uh. This is this doesn't have that

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Speaker 1: sort of limitation, so there may actually not see as

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Speaker 1: much a reason for the judges to rush it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that both sides would be happy to have

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Speaker 1: the case rushed though to some sort of conclusion, but

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Speaker 1: as far as justifying a sort of emergency hearings and

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Speaker 1: things like that. We're talking with Bloomberg Bloomberg News legal

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Speaker 1: reporter Eric Larson about the latest legal rulings court orders

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Speaker 1: against President Trump's third version of his travel band. Two judges,

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Speaker 1: one in Maryland one Hawaii have now issued nationwide orders

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Speaker 1: preventing enforcement of the band, which was about to go

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Speaker 1: into effect when the judges ruled. Uh. They've ruled that

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Speaker 1: it impermissibly discriminates on by nationality or by religion, and

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Speaker 1: the legal fight over the bands will continue. Eric. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the judge in Maryland seemed to make a fair amount

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Speaker 1: out of the way the President's tweeted about the subject

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Speaker 1: of the travel ban and why he believes it's needed.

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Speaker 1: How much impact did the president's tweets have in these cases. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's had a lot of impact. I think it's probably

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Speaker 1: made all of the difference, uh, to be honest, especially

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Speaker 1: with the first and second versions of the travel band

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Speaker 1: because those those rollouts were also a little bit flawed

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Speaker 1: and had other problems with them. Or this one was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be pretty water tight. But these comments in

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Speaker 1: these tweets remain, and the judge in Maryland's highlighted, you know,

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Speaker 1: several of them in his ruling issuing this temporary restraining

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Speaker 1: order against the band. Um, you know, including one from December.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't fifteen when he put his statement on his

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Speaker 1: campaign website saying his statement on preventing Muslim immigration, which

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Speaker 1: pretty clearly spells out a desire to stop people from

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Speaker 1: a particular religion from entering the country. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: a few months later in a Fox Business interview, he

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Speaker 1: pointed out, unquote, we're having problems with the Muslims, and

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Speaker 1: we're having problems with Muslims coming into the country unquote.

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Speaker 1: So uh, he made some statements like that that there's

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Speaker 1: really nothing you can do to dress those up, and

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Speaker 1: all these, you know, a couple of years later, here

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Speaker 1: they are being quoted in this ruling yesterday. So um.

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Speaker 1: And then the judge also noted that the addition of

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Speaker 1: North Korean Venezuela, obviously not the majority countries, the judge said,

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Speaker 1: does not persuasively show a lack of but just purpose

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Speaker 1: behind the proclamation. So clearly these are serious problems that

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Speaker 1: that I'm sure we'll follow him to the Supreme Court. Eric,

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Speaker 1: How could this constitutional confrontation that will most likely reach

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court define the powers of the presidency, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a pretty specific area of power. Was

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Speaker 1: whether or not the president has completed tour over who

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Speaker 1: which immigrants can and cannot enter the country. Um, the

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Speaker 1: power is pretty broad, and I think that the judges

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Speaker 1: have have always agreed with that. But there are are limits. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the judges yesterday, the one in Hawaii,

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Speaker 1: said that the federal laws do not give do not

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Speaker 1: give the president's unbridled discretion to do as he pleases,

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Speaker 1: exactly the way he phrased it. So um, But there

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Speaker 1: are you know, Trump's supporters say that he basically has

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Speaker 1: a blank check to do whatever he wants with immigration,

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Speaker 1: and this question really hasn't come into focus in quite

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Speaker 1: this way until now. So the Supreme Court weighing in, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll surely have an impact on future presidencies in regards

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Speaker 1: to the immigration. Well, Eric, you know, let's let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the path we might be on here. The Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court kicked back one of the cases to the to

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Speaker 1: the dismissed one of the cases that was pending before

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Speaker 1: it about the previous travel ban. Um, I guess you know,

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Speaker 1: one can speculate on the grounds that they figured we

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Speaker 1: might we'll let the lower courts look at this third

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Speaker 1: travel band before we we actually addressed this thing. Um,

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Speaker 1: do you is are the lower courts that the trial

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Speaker 1: courts that have ruled here, are they likely to hold

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Speaker 1: trials or some kind of motion practice now or is

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Speaker 1: it more likely to go up to appeals courts right away?

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Speaker 1: That is that's a great question. I think that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the urgency from the previous executive order legal

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Speaker 1: challenges were because of uh, the bands were you know

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Speaker 1: how these these nine time limits and there was a

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Speaker 1: cent of real urgency. I don't know if that same

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Speaker 1: amount of urgency is here now it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: really going to be up to the courts to decide

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Speaker 1: how much this is in the public interests, and they

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Speaker 1: very likely may want to rush these uh for just

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Speaker 1: that reason. But clearly, you know, it seems like the

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Speaker 1: public and maybe the government and the challengers want to

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Speaker 1: have UM these cases advanced a little bit more UM,

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Speaker 1: because I don't see either side really giving up. Did

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Speaker 1: you sense any sort of sarcasm in Judge Watson's opinion?

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Speaker 1: He said, professional athletes mirror the federal government in this respect.

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Speaker 1: They operate within a set of rules, and one one

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Speaker 1: among them forsakes those rules in favor of his own

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Speaker 1: problems in two Yeah, I think that clearly seemed sarcastic.

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Speaker 1: If I remember correctly, that was the first paragraph in

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Speaker 1: in his his order. UM. I wasn't quite sure what

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Speaker 1: he was making a reference to, you know, recently, if

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Speaker 1: Trump has had some uh some issues with the NFL,

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Speaker 1: for example, you know, I don't know if he was

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Speaker 1: trying to make a reference to that. UM, But clearly

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Speaker 1: Judge Watson has been deeply involved in in this UH,

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Speaker 1: this issue from the beginning, and I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: but he knows what the President's view of him is.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I think he clearly was sending a message

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Speaker 1: with that um and sarcasm was shortly part well, Eric,

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Speaker 1: in about thirty seconds or so. You know, the the

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Speaker 1: the advocates keep winning, but when it got to the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, the Supreme Court kind of gave the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration a limited when and let the band go into

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Speaker 1: effect on a limited basis. How confident are immigration advocates

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Speaker 1: that they're going to be able to win this legal fight?

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Speaker 1: They're very confident. I've every all these various groups, including

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Speaker 1: the A C, l U and different Muslim and Islamic groups. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They believe that once they get down to the nitty

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Speaker 1: gritty of the merits of the case and really delve

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Speaker 1: into the constitutional powers and uh the establishment Clause of

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Speaker 1: the Constitution and what was really behind uh you know,

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Speaker 1: the if the motivation was national security or anti Muslim bias, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that they could prevail. That's what they believe they'll prevail.

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Speaker 1: And of course the d J said the same thing.

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Speaker 1: So well, our thanks to Eric Bloomberg News reporter Eric Larson.

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Speaker 1: More to come on this one that's for sure. As

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Speaker 1: the cases wind their way through the courts, coming up

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Law, more than twenties states and cities are

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Speaker 1: urging the d C. Circuit to decide a case about

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Speaker 1: the legality of the Clean Power Plan in the hope

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Speaker 1: that it will stop the Trump administration from repealing it,

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Speaker 1: at least from repealing it quickly. That's coming up straight

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Speaker 1: ahead on Bloomberg Law. This is Bloomberg