WEBVTT - Did Keir Starmer Manage to Settle the City’s Nerves? 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:08.320 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.840 Well, quite a lot of speculation is getting pretty wide 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:27.560 of the mark. But yeah, let's getting to the area 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:28.840 which is wide of the mark. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.040 Welcome back to voter Nomics, where politics and markets collide. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.280 This year, voters around the world have the ability to 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.280 move markets, countries and economies like never before, so we 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.839 created this series to help you make sense of it all. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.720 I'm Stephanie Flanders. 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:45.519 I'm Adrian Woodridge, and I'm alegra Stratton. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:47.839 Well, we started today's show with a bit from my 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.280 interview with the UK Prime Ministers Keirs Starmer. We got 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.680 a bit of news out of him, which we will 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.640 discuss in a minute, But we were speaking at the 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:00.160 International Investment Summit in London exclusively and you heard he 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:05.160 pushed back against the capital gains tax speculation. But we 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.759 also talked about the government's plans for regulation, the relationship 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.720 with China, and his attitudes towards listing companies like Shean, 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.119 which has been quite controversial. So we're going to play 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.080 some highlights from that talk through perhaps the sort of 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.520 the highs and lows of doing these interviews, the expectations 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.960 not always fulfilled, and I think as part of this conversation, 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.080 we wanted to bring in Alvarey, who's a reporter and 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.920 the Readout newsletter contributor, to get her read on the 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.399 whole summit really how the government's performed there and in 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.800 the previous one hundred days. So Alva, I hesitate to ask, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.679 but what would you have tried to get out of 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.080 the Prime minister if you had been talking to him yesterday? 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.200 And do you think you would have been any more 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:48.160 successful than I will? 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:48.360 Oh? 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:48.800 I think you. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.440 I think you made a valiant effort and as you say, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:52.960 you did get a news line out of him. It's 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.600 a good waite, which doesn't always happen when people interview 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:57.520 kre stars. 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.680 I'm always reminded there is this great moment of kind 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.920 of optimism about any of these kind of interviews, and 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.040 Elegre will appreciate this, where you've done the brilliant questions, 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.880 but you've not heard the sort of wordy answers. Yet 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:14.960 you think you're going to get this fantastic interview where 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:16.720 he answers all these amazing things. And of course, being 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.160 a politician, particularly prime ministers, you never quite get what 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.320 you were hoping to get. But we did hear quite 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:22.959 a lot from him. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.359 He did commit new. We have this phrase commit news. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:26.840 He did commit news because I think what he said 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.239 about CGT was interesting. You know, with what sixteen days 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.240 before a budget or two weeks before a budget and 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.640 to sort of give any kind of concrete shape, I 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.200 mean for me, he seemed to be saying, you know 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.359 what was wider the mark was the number, but that 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.040 it did feel like CGT will go up. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.239 Yeah, And it came on a day where actually the 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.240 Chancellor Rachel we've heard quite a lot about her loosening 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.280 the fiscal rules, or at least changing the fiscal rules 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.200 to allow more investment. What we heard from her was 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.880 that she seemed to not think raising the National insurance 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.280 employer's contribution in some way would be a breach of 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.320 the Manifesto pledge. I did ask the Prime Minister about that. 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:05.960 I wasn't able to get him on that, but I 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.799 think it's interesting because obviously economists would not see much 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:10.679 difference between those two and I think a lot of 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.760 people reading the manifesto would not see much difference. But 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.360 they seem to be making space for that kind of 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:17.160 tax increase. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.240 Yes, to me, strategically really odd because you've got this 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.800 day which is many huge, big bosses coming to the 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.399 Guildhall and then supports cathedral last night to be serenaded 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.799 by Elton John to talk about investing into the UK, 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.280 and then Rachel reads the Chancellor goes out and as 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.800 you said, say stuff. You know, she crosses the road 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.160 to have the proverbial fight to say no, we think 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.720 it's not going to be in breach of the manifesto. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.520 That's not the narrative that they should have wanted out 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.280 of yesterday. They should have wanted out of yesterday exactly 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.800 what Kistarma was saying to you, which is a decent line. 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:50.960 It shouldn't have been thought of as a top line. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.600 But you know, no, Stephanie, everyone I talked to is 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.160 asking me about planning reform, not about tax I think 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:57.839 you know that was never going to be the sort 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.280 of you know, front page splash. But nonetheless, you know 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.760 it's a fair point and it probably does reflect some 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.240 of the conversations in the room. But instead you then 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.200 had language from the Chancellor that is more significant. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.720 We probably ought to actually allow people to hear a 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.520 few minutes of our conversation and This is the first 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.080 half of the interview. I began just talking about the 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.240 rather challenging environment in which he was having the summit. 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.960 There's been a drum beat of inward investment over recent weeks, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.440 which I think demonstrates that although yes, of course we've 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:33.760 had to signal that there are tough decisions to make 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.520 because of the damage that's been done to our economy, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.760 we've just got to be straight with people about that. 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.000 We do have amazing assets in this country in terms 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.120 of our skills, our people, our universities, our cutting edge 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.880 when it comes to technologies like AI, for example, and 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.120 that's why making that really clear statement of inten today 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.080 was very important. And I think quite a lot of 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:00.240 the inward investment decisions we've seen, running into tens of billions, 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.440 are of indication, if you like, of the approach that 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.600 we're taking in partnership with the investors and the businesses, 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.360 many many of whom are here today. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.960 I mean, one of the things that you've been clear 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.039 about was that tax and the chances has been clear 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.000 about is that difficult decisions will be needed. Tax increases 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.360 will be needed to pay for that investment in public 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.800 services that people are expecting and given all the taxes 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.560 that you've ruled out, there's a lot of concern here 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.000 in the business community about increases in capital gains tax 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.200 and in wealth tax. Now, I know you're not going 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:33.719 to want to go into the details of the budget, 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.760 but are you reassuring the investors here that they have 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:38.359 nothing to worry about on that score. 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.279 Well, I'm not going to get into the details of 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.200 the budget. You wouldn't expect me to, but neither are 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.040 I'm going to shy away from the fact that we've 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.480 got difficult decisions to make. The last government left a 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.360 twenty two billion pound black hole and we're not going 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.320 to walk past that. We're going to have to deal 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.800 with it. So that'll be tough. But what have been 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.480 able to be very clear with investors and businesses is 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.440 because growth is the number one mission, then decisions, whether 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.920 it's on the budget or anything else, will be determined 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.600 by whether they help growth or not. So that's the 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.480 lens through which we're seeing this. But I have to 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.560 say the discussion here, we've had intense discussions all day 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.040 long last night as well with a number of people 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:23.520 in the room that we've got to know over the 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.919 last two years, so this is the first time we 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.920 meet it. All of the discussion today has not actually 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:33.040 been about tax. It's been about planning. It's been about 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.000 the regulatory environment. It's been about getting infrastructure moving much 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.440 more quickly and the sort of apparatus of government working 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.560 to that common end. That's the real discussion that's going 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.719 on here. That's the real focus. And actually, contrary to 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.039 perhaps what people might think, tax is not the first 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.960 thing that businesses and investors are raising with me. First 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.640 thing they're raising with me is is it really your 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.640 number one mission? Is it going to be stable and 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.360 strategic and for the long term, to which the answer 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.440 is yes, And are you prepared to do the tough 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:11.480 things on execution and the deliverables, which is about, you know, 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.560 the length of time it takes from investment decision to 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.760 actually seeing a project materialize. That's where I think we've 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.720 been able to do a lot of reassurance that yes, 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.680 we understand that and we're determined to do the follow 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.360 through on growth that is desperately needed for investors, for 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.400 our country and for the jobs of the future. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.280 Forgive me, Prime Minister, but I think a lot of 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:34.920 people they may not be talking about it to you. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.000 But a lot of people are worried. In this sort 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.160 of vacuum that we've had quite a long wait for 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.480 the budget. There's quite a lot of what might be 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.920 might be just crazy speculation around where capital gains tax 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.040 might go, for example, so something like a thirty nine 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.720 percent rate. Can you reassure people that whatever the change is, 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.160 it won't be anything that signifant. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.320 Well, quite a lot of speculation is getting pretty wide 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:59.520 of the mark. But is the market there is. Yeah, 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.240 it's get into the area which is wide of the mark. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.400 But I'm not going to fuel the speculation because we 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.080 can go on like this for a very long time 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.320 until budget day. Everybody knows until budget day none of 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.920 that is going to be revealed. It was important that 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.400 when we came into office, into government, we looked at 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.640 the books, we assess the state of the economy. We 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.560 needed to understand the damage that's been done and that 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.520 twenty two billion pound black hole is a real problem 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.720 that we've got to deal with and make sure that 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.880 we go through all the processes necessary for a properly 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.920 thought through budget. So that's why we put the timing 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.960 as it is. It's the right timing. But equally, it's 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.040 been really fantastic to have this investment summit just a 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.240 few weeks before the budget, where the mood music here 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.599 is very upbeat. People are talking about a real opportunity 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.319 now to invest in the UK, comparing it as a 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.760 relative advantage across the world. We want to seize that 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.960 opportunity and take it boward with many of the investors 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:58.440 that are here. 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.120 You're looking at books, but obviously people are also just 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.880 sort of checking when they think about I know you're 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.280 not going to reveal what's on the budget, but when 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.280 they're thinking about what you've committed to and what you've 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.480 not committed to. For example, the pledge not to increase 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.720 natural insurance contributions. Most people I talk to think that 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.199 if you increase the employer side of that, the employer contribution, 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:22.360 that would be breaking that pledge. Can we without getting 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.240 into the budget, can I just check that is your 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.600 understanding that that would be breaking that pledge. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.200 Well, you're saying, without getting against. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.080 The publict it's your pledge. 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.480 We made commitments in our manifesto and we intend to 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.120 deliver on those commitments. Beyond that, I'm afraid you'll have 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.600 to wait for the budget for the details. For very 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:46.120 obvious reasons, we're still weeks away from the final assessment 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:47.240 in the budget. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.480 I guess that what feel you said, it's the right 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:51.640 timing for this summit. It does feel a bit odd 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:53.760 that for those people in the room, people who are 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.640 doing deals today, you can't promise them that the basic 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:02.599 tax environment for entrepreneurs, for business, for wealth in a 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:04.600 couple of weeks time won't be completely different. 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.959 Well, they're very interested that corporation tax is capped. They 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.360 know exactly where that is in the long term. They're 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.400 very interested in the fact that we're able to say 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.960 that because we've got a good, strong majority in government, 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.800 we're able to make decisions based on years, not months, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.560 with a clear strategy. They're very very interesting when I 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.800 talk them about being a mission driven government, a government 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.920 with a real sense of purpose measured over years, with 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.640 one central purpose, which is wealth creation translated into jobs 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.000 in different parts of the United Kingdom. That's the sort 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.720 of stability that they're looking for, and that's the conversations 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.120 we're having. They're very pleased to hear that from a government. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.959 I'm very pleased about the clarity. There's no end of 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.200 people here today have said the clarity of the message 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.240 is really welcome. It's now the follow through, which is 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.480 actually the execution of it. What are you prepared to 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.920 do when it came to planning, what you're prepared to 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:03.520 do when it comes to regulation. It's not just the 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.360 number of regulations, it's the inconsistency of regulation that we 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.120 need to deal with. And when I'm able to say 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.480 with real confidence and certainty and clarity, yes, we're going 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.079 to deal with that, that leads the decisions, in my view, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.760 to make the sort of investment that we've seen in 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.080 recent weeks, which is very welcome. These are not just 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.760 big numbers, although they are big numbers, they translate into 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:30.280 jobs around the United Kingdom, good, well paid, secure jobs. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.240 And that's the change we promised at the election and 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.520 the change that I'm determined to deliver on. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.640 Just looking at the summit, do you think they did 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.640 what they wanted to do and what do you make 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:45.760 of this tax speculation? 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.600 I think that they are pretty happy with how it 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.240 went yesterday, All things considered. They feel like they hit 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.480 the lines that they wanted to. I mean the line 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.679 that you've got our d of care Starmer. Clearly they 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.160 wanted to send that thing, or they show that they 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.800 do make exceptions when they think budget speculation is too 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.320 of the mark, And clearly they wanted to shoot that 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:03.120 dining ratio. 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.920 So was licensed to go and say that. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.400 I think so. I think probably yeah, And in the notes, 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.280 if pushed, you can say this, you definitely don't want 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.800 to give the opposite impression. I would imagine that's how 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.160 it went, even though probably ideally he would have stuck 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.440 to the line that you mentioned Allegra and then on 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.600 the employer nix. I think, and we've had a little 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:25.720 bit more from Keir Starmer as well, and not saying 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.160 the same as Rachel reeves, This seems like something that 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.680 they do clearly intend to do, unless it's all kind 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.520 of mind games. But I think I think that they 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.599 feel like they have just enough space or plausible deniability 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.480 to say that this wasn't a manifesto Pleasure wants fluttering. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.560 They've given a very positive assessment of what's going on, 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.200 but let me be a little bit more negative. First 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.520 of all, they're very incredibly confused with their messaging. They've 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.719 spent the last few weeks telling us that Britain is 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.439 a basket case in all sorts of ways. Its infrastructure 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.319 is crumbling. It made this dramatically stupid mistake of leaving 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.480 the EU, and now they're saying to all these people 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.440 invest here. That's a very odd way of going about government. 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.080 And secondly, about the Starmer speech, this is sort of 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:12.680 we tend to think of this in terms of cat 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.920 and mouse. We try and get him to say things 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.080 that tell us what's going to be in the budget, 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.400 and he tries to stop himself from doing that and 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.800 keep the surprise there. But I just wonder if that's 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:27.840 not the right game to be playing. A better game 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.359 would be providing a sort of intellectual framework that justifies 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.160 what you're doing. Of course he can't give away what's 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.200 in the budget, but what he must do is set 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.480 up a set of visions of tactics and all of 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.400 that sort of thing, and he just doesn't do that 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:45.240 in this interview. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.640 Yeah, well, you were all smiling when I mentioned the 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.559 employer nix and the government rolling the pitch for that. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.080 I wonder what you make of that. It does look 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.560 like that is what the government intends to do as 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:01.320 one of its main revenue raisers. In budget No. I 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.679 think that they feel like they can just about make 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.360 the case that this isn't breaking a manifesto commitment, that 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.680 it's sufficiently ambiguous, because the Tories were pushing them to 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.080 rule it out during the election campaign, so you could 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.160 plausibly make an argument that it wasn't in the manifesto itself. 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.040 I think they feel like they've got enough space there 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.560 and then this raises enough money in one way. 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.040 But reinforced the sense on the part of the electorate 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:31.480 that even if they were not lying directly, they were 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.440 really trying to pull the wall over people's eyes and 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.640 undermine trust in the electorate. We know, really that they 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.400 made a lot of us about not raising these big taxes, 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.480 and now they seem to be squirming around in order 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.200 to be able to do it. They may be able 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:48.960 to get away with they've got a vast majority, they 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.920 may have left themselves wiggle room, but we don't want 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.360 to be governed by people who are looking for wiggle and. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.560 That kind of great independent judge of these things. Paul Johnson, 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.480 who's the head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, came 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.840 out yesterday and said it would be a straightforward breach 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.800 of the manifesto, and I think Adrian is right. You 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.720 play with fire when you have an apathetic electurate that 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.640 thinks they're all the same and don't talk to you straight. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.880 But the impression I get from all of this is 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.520 that we're going to tax labor more heavily, increase the 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.680 cost of employing people, and we're going to tell employers 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.920 how to employ people. I mean, we're going to make 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:28.040 lots and lots of rules about workers' rights, which you 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.680 contributes to the extent of regulation and which diminishes your 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.720 power as a manager to manage. I think both of 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.280 those are very dubious moves for a government that believes 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.440 in wealth, supposedly believes in wealth creation. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.400 But this is one of those times where I think 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.600 the politics versus the economics, if you just look at 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.160 the economics, you know the reason they are in this 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.320 hole talking about wealth taxation, talking about capital gains tax, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:52.960 which they don't really want to be talking about when 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.320 they're trying to attract investment and support growth, is because 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.720 they've ruled out reversing these most recent nationals surance cuts, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.720 which the country really couldn't afford. They cost twenty billion pounds, 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:06.920 and I think there's a world in which they could 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.840 have said, you know, we're not raising ASTRA insurance beyond 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.680 what they were a year ago, but we don't think 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.240 these recent cuts, which by the way, you've barely noticed, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.400 are affordable, and we are going to reverse those now. 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:20.960 Who knows whether they could have done that, but if 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:26.120 they effectively do that via the employer contribution, it doesn't 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.400 actually make a bit. It doesn't affect employment anymore or less. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:31.600 To do it on the employer side. On the employee side, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.480 they'll be doing it in a politically cack handed way. 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.640 But a lot of economists would say, yeah, that makes 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.880 sense because we couldn't afford those recent cuts anyway. One 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.720 thing I wanted to get onto after that part of 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:47.600 the interview was this tension between the focus on ethics 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.480 and the focus on attracting investment. I think comes up 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.520 big time, particularly in relation to Chinese companies, but also Sheen, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.080 the online retailer so controversial that it has not been 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.120 able to list in the US because of accusations around 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:07.280 forced labor of Weiga workers in Shinjang. And I was 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.080 quite interested. I mean, Alva, do you think this is 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:10.919 going to be an issue for them because the previous government. 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.280 We're trying desperately to get Sheen because a lot of 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.480 other people don't want to list in the UK anymore. 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.240 But this is quite controversial. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.840 Well yeah, I think that privately the government says that 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.560 they're open to this. I read that as they are 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.679 pretty keen really like they do want more listings in 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.120 London and this would be a record size of listing. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.520 They've had meetings with Shean quite a bit privately, even 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.840 in opposition. This is something that they do want to 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.400 see happen, but they're careful about the language around it because, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.840 as you say, there's a lot of concern on the 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.239 labor backbenches and just in Parliament in general about the 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:49.560 employment practices of Shean, and they've managed to avoid too 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.280 much scrutiny on it. But I think it will come 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.520 to a head. There are some people who are clarly 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.200 keen to raise this in Parliament in the coming week. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:57.880 So I think it was good that you pressed him 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.439 on that. The way that the government always gets around 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.840 this when they're asked about it is they say, well, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.800 if they're listed in London, they would be subject to 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.680 UK employment regulation. And so I think it was good 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.840 that you said, what does that actually mean? Does that 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.320 mean that they have to stop using workers in Shinjang? 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.280 What kind of reassurances will you need? And it was 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.760 the first indication from Kure Starmer that actually they will 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.480 need to do that. My understanding is that they've given 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.240 she In reassurance is that they won't block any attempt 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.040 to list. But if they need, actually she And to 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.480 change a big part of their employment model, then I 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.040 think that that's pretty interesting. I mean, she and I 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.760 think has always rejected the suggestion that they use slave labor. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.560 I think Britain's in a very difficult position in the 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.280 relationship with China because we can't trade as much as 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.399 we'd like to on the tech side, so we have 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.320 to redefine what our trading relationship is. And you know, 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.320 a fast fashion company doesn't pose national security problems, so 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.760 that's the sort of area where we ought to be 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.680 doing that. But you know, again there's this tension between 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.399 on the world one hand, the focus on investment at 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.560 any cost or and on the other worker's rights at 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.400 any cost. And you know, saying we're going to we're 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.639 going to be much more concerned about workers' rights. But 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.520 on the other hand, we're going to trade with somebody 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.080 who uses very dubious sources of labor. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.080 In But do you think it actually should be disqualifying 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.359 for the UK Stock Exchange to have if it turned 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:22.760 out they had forced that. It was, of course the 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:24.800 question you always have one question, you wish you'd ask 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.359 three more twice. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.879 If they use force labor, absolutely they shouldn't be they 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:34.119 should not be allowed to listen on the UK Stock Exchange. Again, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.200 as I was saying earlier, these are very mixed messages. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:38.600 So maybe we should listen to that bit of the 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.240 interview and then see whether he's come out with a 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:50.160 coherent policy. So you talked about mission led government and 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.520 ethics led governments obviously in a feature. But there is 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.520 another company, Sheen, which was considered to be such a 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.000 rogue operator in the U s that it hasn't been 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:02.760