1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello Unhappy Friday. I am Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:15,079 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Wilson. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: And we talked about Margaret E. 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: Knight this week. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: We did Okay, we got to talk about the picture. 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: I Yeah, if you do a search anywhere for Margaret E. Knight, 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: there's one picture this shows up, and it's not her. 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: It seems to me like, obviously not her. It's a 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: very beautiful woman who looks very glamorous but also casual, 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: and she looks like she's wearing like a shirt from 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: maybe the nineteen forties, long after Margaret had passed. I 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: don't know where this photograph came from or why it 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: proliferates as the image of her. I found exactly one 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: image of her. 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: Ever. 18 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: It was from a very very old newspaper, and it's 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: when she was quite advanced in years, and it's like 20 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: her standing in her workshop, surrounded my machinery. And it 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: is obviously not a woman that looks like the woman 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: in this photograph. 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 24 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: Well, and the woman in the photograph all her hair, 25 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: her top, everything, it is not from the era that 26 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: this woman actually lived in. It is like nineteen forties, 27 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: is what it looks like. I don't know why that happened. 28 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: I kept I was starting to think I had taken 29 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: crazy pills, because I was like looking all over going 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: who is this woman doing reverse Google image searches for her? 31 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: I don't know who that woman is in the photo 32 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: that is used all the time. I only found one 33 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: instance of like a reputable place going, hey, we took 34 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: that picture down because that seemed wrong, but we don't 35 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: know what it is. And that was like on an 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: article by the Smithsonian. I don't know why that picture 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: became the one. Someone shared it somewhere and everybody picked 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: it up, but that's it. Not I went down the 39 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: same rabbit hole that you did, because I was like, 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: this looks like it would have been a picture of 41 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: one of my grandmothers, which is decades too recent to 42 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: be this person. Yes, And so I went down a 43 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: very similar rabbit hole of like the Google image search 44 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: and the like. There's a website called teni dot com 45 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: where you can search images and try to figure out 46 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: and the earliest results that I saw there were from 47 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: like twenty fourteen, and all of them were supposedly they 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: were all they were supposedly hurt, and I was like, this, 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 1: this seems like a real it's a real person. 50 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: This doesn't it. It's not this person. 51 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I found exactly one article that seemed to be trying 52 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: to figure out who this person was, and speculated that 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: it was a different Margaret E. Knight, who did exist 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: and served in probably the Women's Army Corps or something 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: similar during World War Two, which would have been the 56 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: right age for this person. 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 2: But I found the same thing. 58 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: But it's like, we think, shrug, yeah, but and like 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: nothing I could find that actually identified who this person was. 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a little bit different from the conversation 61 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: that we had about Rebecca Crumpler, who we talked about. 62 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: There are no known pictures of her, but there are 63 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: other There are pictures of other women that are used 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: as pictures of her. Those other women, though, are at 65 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: least contemporary the same era as her, and had other 66 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: common traits. Like most of the other women that, like 67 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: the pictures are used, they're all black women, all from 68 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: about the same area, all working in medicine or nursing 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: in some way. But here we have Margarety Knight and 70 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: we don't know who from a different time period that 71 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: came from. We don't know where. It's weird, it is weird, 72 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: and it's there are a few different things that I 73 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: think part of the problem is that I mentioned in 74 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: the episode towards the end, like I wish we knew 75 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: more about her from her own perspective, and we don't 76 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: have a lot of that, And so I think people 77 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: have really pieced a lot together over the years, you know, 78 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: Like I found myself looking at a lot of patent 79 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: filings to get essentially her own language, which was all 80 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: very mechanical and technical, but like, and that one interview 81 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: from Woman's journal is really the one that like is 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: the foundation of a lot of other articles about her, 83 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: but they don't really articulate anything beyond you know, sort 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: of her recollections of things, right, And so it is 85 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: a little bit tricky, which is why I found myself 86 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: down many rabbit holes of like when was the Eastern 87 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: paper Bag Company founded? And there have actually been two, 88 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: because there was another that was founded later, which gets 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: confusing also, and there was like a patent court case 90 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: different from the kind that she was embroiled when with 91 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: Charles Annon, where the paper bag company sued another bag 92 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: company for a process that they were using that Eastern 93 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: said it had patented, but Eastern wasn't using that patent 94 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: and they weren't using that process, and so the other 95 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: company was trying to argue, like, you can't tell us 96 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: we can't do it, you're not even using it. And 97 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: actually the judgment was like, no, they can't tell you 98 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: you can't do that, And it doesn't matter if they're 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: making the bags or not. It's just another fascinating thing. 100 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: But again, that's not about her. So it was a 101 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: little bit a little bit kooky and tricky to try 102 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: to find stuff like even the name of the person 103 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: that she went into business with to found that company. 104 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: His name is never mentioned in anything like anything, so 105 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't know who that was. If we knew that, 106 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: we could trace down some other stuff, I think, which 107 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: explains in many ways why Margaret Knight's story gets a 108 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: little muddled in various places, like even in her obituaries. 109 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: They didn't have enough to go on that they didn't 110 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: feel compelled to make some stuff up or fill in 111 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: some blanks themselves, right, which I understand, But also it 112 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: is I love her story because I love the idea 113 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: of someone that just can't help but make stuff and 114 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: invent things. I hate that that started because she had 115 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: to witness something horrific when she was just a kid. Yeah, 116 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: but I certainly admire the fact that her reaction was 117 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: not like, Okay, I'm going to live in this trauma forever. 118 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to figure out a way to try to 119 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: fix this, which is really admirable in a twelve year old. 120 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: Look at you, they're shuttle in hand. There is so 121 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't. This is a piece of my desk decor. 122 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: But as we started working on this, I was like, 123 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: I literally have a shuttle which I think is from 124 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: a machine loom. It definitely has like metal points on 125 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: either end. It looks exactly like others I looked at 126 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: during the process. 127 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: It's heavy. 128 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: Can you imagine that getting shot off of a machine 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: that had like pneumatic power to it? 130 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, to your face. 131 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: Like, this is like lawn dart level of head injury. Yesh, 132 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: scary Yeah, scary. Now people are gonna be like, Tracy, 133 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: show me the thing I don't. You can find pictures 134 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of antique machine looms online super duper easy. Tracy does 135 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: not need to show us. But it's exactly like the 136 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 1: or her shuttle. Yeah, I mean it's I hope nobody 137 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: was like, why are you explaining how a loom works 138 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: to us? But like, I feel like if you don't 139 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: understand what's happening with the weave, it's hard to understand 140 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: what the shuttle does, right, And so it's like the 141 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: thought of this shuttle just whipping off of there because 142 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: a thread snapped is because what that means too, is 143 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: that if you're the one working that machine, it's probably 144 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: not you that's getting hit. It's probably the person to 145 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: your right or left on the line. Yeah, it's your 146 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: neighbor on the next machine, which is really upsetting to 147 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: think about because then like a machine has failed and 148 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: you feel like it was your fault that they got injured. Like, 149 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: there are a lot of layers of things that she 150 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: kept people from having to experience because as a twelve 151 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: year old, she's like, why has nobody fixed this? 152 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, a twelve year old having to work in a mill. 153 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: That is just heartbreaking to me. 154 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: I know that is not an uncommon story, yeah, but 155 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: it still just breaks my heart. And I really I 156 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: don't want a dog on people who talk about like 157 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: she died with less than three hundred dollars. Like, if 158 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: you've listened, there is a Memory Palace episode about her, 159 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: and that's kind of part of the end, and it 160 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: is pitched is very sad. But to me, I'm like, 161 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: what do you mean she lived independently? She didn't, She 162 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: wasn't carrying debt nobody. She lived her life exactly that 163 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: she wanted at a time when like if she had 164 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: said I want to be an inventor when I grow up, 165 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: and I just want to live independently and I don't 166 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: want to get married, I don't know if she wanted 167 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: to get married. We know nothing about her personal life, 168 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: but like, you know, I'm just gonna do my thing 169 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: forever and live in my machine shop and make stuff. 170 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: People would have been like, honey, you can't do that, right, 171 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: Well I did. Look, I did totally did that thing 172 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: you said was impossible. Right to me, it's maybe that's 173 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: a point of view thing where I'm like, that doesn't 174 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: sound sad to me. That sounds like now, No, I 175 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: would have been sadder if she had amassed a great 176 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: deal of wealth and then had no obvious air and 177 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: people fought over it and it got squandered away on 178 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: nothing or like given to companies. Yeah, we've occasionally talked 179 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: about various people on the show before who like they 180 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: wanted to do a thing and they spent their life 181 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: doing a thing and they never got rich off the thing, 182 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: but like they were doing it. And we've like occasionally 183 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: heard from people who were like, I don't know why 184 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: you framed this as a failure, And I'm like, I 185 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: don't think we did right, Like, uh, you know, not 186 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: with incredible wealth doesn't feel like failure to me. 187 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: No, I mean, I think. 188 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: The reason it probably feels like a failure when people 189 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: are considering it is that today that's the gold standard 190 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: of achievement. Right, you got rich because you were so smart, 191 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: but like there's wealth and richness that has nothing to 192 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: do with dollars and like having the life that you 193 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: wanted and apparently, I mean that doesn't sound like she 194 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: would have been suffering or struggling in any way financially. 195 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: That sounds like a pretty sounds that sounds rich to me. 196 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: Like she got to enjoy her life, do what she wanted. 197 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: She answered to no one essentially, I mean, that's like 198 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: that's unheard of today. There aren't that many people that 199 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: can make a life where they they don't have to 200 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: work for somebody else. There are a handful, and that's great. 201 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: But like that and supporting yourself that way, doing the 202 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: one thing you have loved since you were a little 203 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: kid sounds great. That sounds like success to me. I 204 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: hope we find another picture of her that is really 205 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: of her. I think that one that I mentioned earlier. 206 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure about the rights on it, because I 207 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: feel like there's like the newspaper thing sometimes causes other 208 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: Oh it should have expired theoretically, but it may have 209 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: been part of like renewals on group batch images and stuff. 210 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know, but I do really love and 211 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: I hope maybe we use one of the sketches from 212 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: one of her patent applications. Maybe the blanket, because it's 213 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: so funny to me to see the horses kicking up 214 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: dirt as part of the illustration of how it works. 215 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: I think it's great. 216 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: The skirt would be great, except it just looks like 217 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: a big round thing with buckles on it. So Margaret Knight, 218 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: I salute you because you sound incredibly smart, and I 219 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: hope you were a delight to be around. We don't 220 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: know much better personality, Like I said, but I'm very 221 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: thankful because I mean, we're still using, you know, machine 222 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: made flat bottom shopping pegs today. They are a standard 223 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: part of life. And I'm sure somebody may have figured 224 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: it out, but she was the one who did it, 225 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: so I'm very grateful. This week, one of the things 226 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: we talked about was Henry Martin, Robert and Robert's Rules 227 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: of Order, brought on just by my curiosity of like, 228 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: who was this Robert person. There were some moments during 229 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: research that I almost slowly backed away from all of this, Right, 230 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: was it all the we don't really know their thing 231 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: about slavery and a lot of people have made this 232 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: kind of a fairy tale. Yeah, that's one of the 233 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: I read a whole paper again. The paper was written 234 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. There is a biography that came out 235 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: after this where the whole thing was like, this is 236 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: a giant hole. Not all of his papers are in 237 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: the Library of Congress. Some of the papers seem to 238 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: have been closely guarded by the family. There are some 239 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: parallels to me between Henry Martin, Robert and Emily Post. 240 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: So Emily Post, big bestseller of etiquette stuff. She and 241 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: descendants made the Emily Post Institute, who like continue sort 242 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: of putting out those works and also maintaining the image 243 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: of Emily Post. Right, So the Roberts Rules Association was 244 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: formed by his direct descendants in nineteen sixty. It is 245 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: still made up of direct descendants and seems to have 246 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: been very protective of, like Henry Martin Roberts's image, what 247 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: papers have been available for historians and biographers to have 248 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: access to. So this new biog that just came out 249 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, the writing on it started 250 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: back in the fifties by somebody who was talking directly 251 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: to family members and had more access to family papers 252 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: than anybody else has. But that person died and then 253 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: the work was finished much more recently by somebody else. 254 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: And I feel like that the things that were pointed 255 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: out in this paper from twenty twelve, the Elusive Henry 256 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: Martin Robert a Historical Problem in the Journal National Parliamentarian 257 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: by Donald Fishman, I really felt like this new book 258 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: did not resolve any of the things that that paper 259 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: pointed out, is like stuff that we just don't know. 260 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: We don't know what he thought about any of this. 261 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: So that was a thing that made me kind of 262 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: want to back away slowly because I was like, is 263 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: there something happening here that is being concealed? 264 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: Don't know. 265 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: Next thing that made me want to back away slowly, 266 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: there is stuff that has been put out by the 267 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: current Robert Rules Association that refers to Henry Martin Robert 268 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: just as the General in a way that had a 269 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: tone of like a lot of deference and almost hero 270 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: worship to me, and also sort of the implication that 271 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: everybody knows who the General is without specifically naming him. 272 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: And I was like, that's a little weird. Next thing 273 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: that almost caused me to back away slowly. There is 274 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: a brief biography of him that was written in nineteen 275 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: fifty five and reprinted in nineteen ninety three by someone 276 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: named Ralph C. Smedley, And I was like, who is 277 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: Ralph C. Smedley? And the answer is the founder of 278 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: Toastmasters International. Now, if you are in Toastmaster's International, I 279 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: am not criticizing you personally. However, especially in the years 280 00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: after Holly and I joined the podcast, we got emails 281 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: from people who described themselves as active in toast Masters 282 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: International and rather than listening to and engaging with the 283 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: content of our podcast. They had counted the number of 284 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: filler words that we used and sent us an email 285 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: with the total number of the filler words and an 286 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: explanation of how bad filler words are. And that caused 287 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: me to have preconceptions about Toastmaster's International. 288 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: And so when I realized that. 289 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: This biography was by the founder of toast Master's International. 290 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: Also by the. 291 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: Way it is titled The Great Peacemaker, I was like, oh, no, 292 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: am I going to upset the toast Masters people and 293 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: the Roberts Rules people. And I had sort of a 294 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: and then I was like, the only way out is 295 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: through continuing on with this. There's just a lot of 296 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: writing about him that has a tone that I would 297 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: call almost fawning in how it talks about him, and just. 298 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: This careful, careful control of his image seems a little 299 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: fishy to me. 300 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: In this biography, Ralph Smedley also frames him as having 301 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: prevented or stopped a million fights, and I was like, hey, 302 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: Ralph Smedley, did you never see two people get into 303 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: a big fight about some point of parliamentary procedure? I 304 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: would argue, sure, he prevented a lot of fights by 305 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: giving people an organized way to have meetings and disagree 306 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: with each other. But they're sure are people that have 307 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: big arguments about the finer points of parliamentary procedure. 308 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: Something I had in. 309 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: The episode that I took out because it is funny 310 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: to me, but I also did not feel like it 311 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: was actively contributing to the episode in the way that 312 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: I wanted. It is a pair of Webster's defines. Webster's 313 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: defines parliamentary law as the rules and precedents governing the 314 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: proceedings of deliberative assemblies and other organizations. Webster's defines a 315 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: deliberative assembly as a non legislative organization that conducts meetings 316 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: according to parliamentary law. And I was like, Webster, you 317 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: just went a circle there. Again, there are legislative bodies 318 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: that do use Robert's rules, not Congress. 319 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: Though. 320 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: Have you ever played Nomic? That's all I could think 321 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: of through this whole episode. Now, So Nomic was do 322 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: you know what it is? No? It was a game 323 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: that was created in nineteen eighty two by Peter Suber, 324 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: and it kind of makes me think about Robert's Rules 325 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: of Order in a different way because the point of 326 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: nomic is that the participants in it can change the 327 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: rules as they go to essentially craft whatever they want. 328 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: But it's all based on like kind of a parliamentary 329 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: procedure of participation, where it's like, I move that this 330 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: immutable rule, which means that would take precedence over a 331 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: mutable rule, be made mutable. Everybody can vote on it, 332 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: and then that rule can then be changed on the 333 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: next round. I'm doing a very simplified version. It's the 334 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: point of it. The point of the game is to 335 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: show kind of the problem of sets of rules, right, 336 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: because as you continue to develop and massage the rules, 337 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: it is always at some point going to contradict itself. Okay, yeah, 338 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: because once you know, you start getting into especially specificities 339 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: of like no, when player three turns to the right, 340 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: all other players have to consider this, you know, point 341 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: of order whatever, and eventually things like that are just 342 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: going to lock into themselves in a way that doesn't 343 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: make sense anymore. But that's all I could think of 344 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: with Robert's Rules of Order, and wondering whether or not 345 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: he ever reached a point during the various new version 346 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: and revisions he did where he was like, uh, oh, 347 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta rework my parameters here because I 348 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: have gone too far. 349 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 350 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: There, I read some descriptions of him that that you know, 351 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: described him as a little pedantic, which I mean, if 352 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: if a thing you want to do is write rules 353 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: about how to have good meetings, it makes sense. 354 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: I was like, did we need that description? 355 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: Right? 356 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: We have it in the in his body of work. 357 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: But then also it does seem like during his lifetime 358 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: he was like, like, what, whatever your organization organization is, 359 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: this is like a template for you to use. If 360 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: something in it is not working for your organization, you 361 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 1: don't have to stick to it just because it's what 362 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: I said in the rule. 363 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot. 364 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: There's some stuff that is outlined in Robert's rules that 365 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: you'll see on quick Reference, the guides and stuff that 366 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: makes total sense to me that I feel like can 367 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: be a really good way to structure a meeting, like 368 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: calling the meeting to order. Having an agenda can be 369 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: very helpful to make sure things are on track. Uh, 370 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: dealing with the old business or stuff that was from 371 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: the prior meeting, dealing with anything remnants from that before 372 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: moving on to the new stuff. Having any debates any 373 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: other thing that's happening and then adjourning the meeting makes 374 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: sense to me when you get into the different types 375 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: of motions that can be introduced, and which ones can 376 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: be debated, and which ones can be amended, and which 377 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: ones take precedence over other ones. A lot of times 378 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: in some of the quick references, there's basically a table, 379 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: and that is where my brain starts to kind of swim. 380 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: In terms of how this all actually works. 381 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: In our four age meetings back in the nineteen eighties, 382 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: we were not down in the nitty gritty of different 383 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: types of motions to be introduced. To me, it was 384 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: more like practice for the kind of business meetings we 385 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 1: might have as an adult, which is kind of funny 386 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: because my adult life has included i think think zero 387 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: zero organizations that have been running their meetings with Robert's rules. 388 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: Because even though I live in Massachusetts, I've only lived 389 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: in cities in Massachusetts, not in a town that is 390 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: having town meeting. I haven't been in an hoa. Like 391 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: there was technically an HOA in at the neighborhood that 392 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: I lived in when I had a house outside of Atlanta, 393 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: but like that was a very laid back hoa, it 394 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: was not running any kind of specific meeting like that in. 395 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: Terms of Robert's rules. 396 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: I do, however, know people who are like on the 397 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: board of a nonprofit or they are part of a 398 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: really established organization that has been around for one hundred 399 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: and fifty years that is conducting business meetings using Roberts rules. 400 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: Like there are are people and still just kind of 401 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: ironic to me that my four h meetings were preparing 402 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: me for something I didn't actually use. Well, I think 403 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: here's here's my takeaway always on Robert tools, because I 404 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: remember I don't remember what class it was in high 405 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: school that I think we had to like really study them. 406 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: And I remember at the time thinking, as a rebellious 407 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: kind of a jerk kid, what the hell are we 408 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: doing this for? And my teacher, who was very very patient, 409 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, like I get it. You're probably you know, 410 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: not going to govern some meeting like this, but there 411 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: could come a time in your life where you have 412 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: a work meeting or you have this and you don't 413 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: have to follow these rules, but just knowing them is 414 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: going to make you better prepared to even do those 415 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: And I was like, right, all right, all right, yeah, and. 416 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 2: She was not wrong. 417 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say the culture of our workplace does 418 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: not include having agendas for meetings in many contexts, which 419 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: I often think having an agenda might would help. 420 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: But that's just me sometimes just me anyway. 421 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: I I don't know what person I would have thought 422 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: would be the author of Robert's Rules of Order. Now 423 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: that I know that it was an army engineer, that 424 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to me because there are 425 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: aspects of it that are sort of applying an engineering 426 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: mindset to like social behavior. I think one of the 427 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: papers that I read for this had something similar also, 428 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, was not what I was expecting in hindsight 429 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: makes sense. So happy, Happy Friday. Whatever's happening over your weekend, 430 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: I hope it is great. You know, if you have 431 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: a meeting to go to, I hope nobody in your 432 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: meeting is abusing Robert's rules to get their own way. 433 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: I hope any rules following in the meeting is leading 434 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: to the end of having a better meeting. We'll be 435 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: back with a Class Aassic episode tomorrow, which I think 436 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: is going to be the Pig War, and we'll have 437 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: something brand new on Monday. Stuff you missed in history 438 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 439 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 440 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.