1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: So I'm about to sit and watch the arrest of Lucy. 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Let be it's the first time I've seen it, as 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: I don't love to go out of my way to 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: see people getting arrested. All right, let's see how this goes. 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: Hello, Lucy, is it hell? I'm please stepan seven? Yeah, 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: thank you. 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: It's six am. 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Lucy's wearing a powder blue hoodie matching sweatpants. 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 3: She's letting the officers inside. 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: Eleven minutes later, it's recording again and we can see 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: Lucy being led out of the house in handcuffs. 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 3: She looks just shocked. 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: We're all seeing the same facial expression. But what meaning 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: are we imbuing to it? Depending on what you feel 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: about her, you think, oh, she's in shock because she's 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: being accused of a crime she didn't commit, or she's 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: in shock because she thinks she was going to get 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: away with it. I don't know, Lucy. I do know 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: that feeling of shock and just helplessness, and how suddenly 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: you go from being a regular person who has the 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: ability to just open a door. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: Right. 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: That's something that immediately is triggering for me, is the 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: memory of suddenly not having access to the world, the 25 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: way that a normal person has access to the world, 26 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and now the world is completely changed and shifted around you. 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: I remember the actual moment they put handcuffs on me. 28 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: They told me that it was a mere formality. It's 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: just a bizarre moment of change that you don't really understand, 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: going from being a free person to a person in custody. 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: It's there's nothing really that compares to that. It's the ultimate, 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: like being rendered small. 33 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 4: I'm just gonna put me in the box seat in 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 4: the hair. 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 5: Oh, I have to take a seat in that. 36 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: Today, watching this, it brings me back to the day 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: I was arrested. I was so in shock that I 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: didn't even realize what was happening. It was so unfathomable 39 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: to me that I could be accused that I believed 40 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: the police when they told me they were taking me 41 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: somewhere for my own protection. Even as the handcuffs clicked 42 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: on my wrists, it still didn't click for me. It 43 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: wasn't until several days later, after repeatedly crying myself to 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: sleep in a prison cell, that I was escorted to 45 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: a makeshift courtroom in the prison, where a judge told 46 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: me I was accused of murder. Only then did I 47 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: finally understand what was happening to me? I don't know 48 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: what Lucy let Be felt the day she was arrested, 49 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: but in the video of her arrest released by the police, 50 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 1: that dazed expression. 51 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: It gives me chills. 52 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: But for whatever confusion Lucy let Be may have been feeling, 53 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: a much more straightforward narrative was starting to emerge in 54 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: the media. 55 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 6: A woman who worked at the Countess of Chester Hospital 56 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 6: has been arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies and 57 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 6: attempting to murder another six still probably. 58 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: As part of the investigation, the Cheshire Police search Lucy's home, 59 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: her parents' house, and Lucy's office the hospital. They sees 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: her diaries, her computer, her phone, and paperwork she has 61 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: stashed under her bed. What they find will become key 62 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,279 Speaker 1: evidence against Lucy at her trial. One item in particular 63 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: seems so damning it could well be irrefutable proof that 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: Lucy is exactly what the doctors suspect her of being 65 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: a serial killer. The next day, Lucy's name and the 66 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: accusations against her will make the front page of every 67 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: major newspaper, every news show, and every radio broadcast. 68 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 3: From this moment on Lucy. 69 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: Let Be is a character in her own life story. 70 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: This is the moment Lucy loses hold of her own narrative. 71 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and iHeart Podcasts. This 72 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: is out the Case of Lucy let Be, Episode three, 73 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: Operation Hummingbird. 74 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: It's been nearly. 75 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Two years since the death of Baby A. Doctors on 76 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: the neonatal unit at the Countess feel like they. 77 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 3: Are banging their heads against the wall. 78 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: So far, they've had two external reviews and a third 79 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: is underway, but still none of the reviews are coming 80 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to the same conclusion as the doctors. 81 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 6: Let's say we've got a problem. The facts are we've 82 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 6: had an increase in death and we think it's her. 83 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: Michelle Warden is a former neonatal nurse at the Countess. 84 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,119 Speaker 1: She never worked with Lucy, but she knew a lot 85 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: of the people who did, and she says the doctors 86 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: in charge were ready to blame Lucy very early on, from. 87 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 6: The first moment that they pointed the finger at Lucy. 88 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 6: They were not thinking that Lucy had made a clinical 89 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 6: mistake or there'd been an accident. All the way along, 90 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 6: they'd only had on average three deaths a year. They 91 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 6: were definitely considering that this was a malicious act. I 92 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 6: think because they were saying there were so many, I'm saying, oh, 93 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 6: these are unexplained collapses. 94 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: Just a side note for those who are not familiar. 95 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: In this context, a collapse is a sudden deterioration in 96 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: a baby's health, a drop in vital signs, a change 97 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: in heart rate, or if they stop breathing. For the doctors, 98 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: the sheer number of deaths while Lucy let Be was 99 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: on shift are looking like much more than mere coincidence, 100 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: and it needed the police. But still none of the 101 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: hospital administrators agree, that is until doctor Jayram tells them 102 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: a story that, if true, is the first hand account 103 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: of attempted murder. 104 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 7: That is a night that is etched on my memory 105 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 7: and will be in my nightmares forever. 106 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerram tells hospital administrators that two years prior, he 107 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: had walked in on Lucy watching a baby nearly suffocate 108 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: to death. But a question remains, why didn't he just 109 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: call the police. 110 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 6: Then he suddenly came up with this idea that he 111 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 6: caught her virtually red handed with baby Ka, but he 112 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 6: didn't document anything in the note, and he didn't tell 113 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 6: anybody for over twelve months now. If you seriously think 114 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 6: you've walked into a nursery where somebody's about to murder 115 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 6: a baby, you just get in your car and drive 116 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 6: to the police station, wouldn't you. 117 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: After initial conversations with hospital higher ups, the police are 118 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: still skeptical that there even is a case, but after 119 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: receiving an email from doctor Jayram, a detective decides to 120 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: meet with the doctors. 121 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 8: I met with Stephen Breary and Rabbi Jayream and asked 122 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 8: them to explain to me, in the very short timescale 123 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 8: we had, why I should or should not take this 124 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 8: forward to be investigated. 125 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: This is a quote from Detective Superintendent Paul Hughes of 126 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: the Cheshire Constabulary, read by an actor. It's from an 127 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: interview he did on a podcast hosted by the UK 128 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: tabloid The Daily Mail. 129 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 8: Although they are very, very fragile, very delicate babies that 130 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 8: need care, there's no expectation of depth, there's no expectation 131 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 8: of collapse. 132 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: Detective Hughes looks like he could be a character in 133 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: a Guy Ritchie movie. He's bald, barrel chested with a 134 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: close trimmed beard. He has a kind of Jason Statham 135 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: vibe about him. In interviews and press conferences about the case, 136 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: he wears a suit that barely contains him and a 137 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: somber expression. During their initial meeting, doctor Breery and doctor 138 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: Jayram tell Detective Hughes that although babies on the unit 139 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: are fragile, one thing they don't do is die suddenly. 140 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: Of course, it's not like babies never die in a 141 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: neonatal unit, but the doctors explain they usually know when 142 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: it's going to happen. The doctors go on to explain 143 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: just how unusual these deaths were, and Detective Hughes leaves 144 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: the encounter convinced there's a case. Here's doctor Jayram during 145 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: his ITV interview. 146 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 7: The very fact that the police, after listening to us 147 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 7: for less than ten minutes, realize that this is something 148 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 7: that they had to be involved with. To me, speaks 149 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 7: volumes and I could have punch the air. 150 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: Finally, the police open an investigation into the deaths at 151 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: the Countess and code name it Operation Hummingbird. The following 152 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: series of events would forever change the hospital and everyone 153 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: on that unit, from staff to parents. A narrative would 154 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: take hold, and there was no going back from here, 155 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: this is now a murder case, and at the helm 156 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: would be Detective Hughes as senior detective. Here he is again, 157 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: this time in a promotional video put out by the 158 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: police themselves. 159 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 8: What I was presented with was effectively a number of 160 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 8: reports written in medical jargon. 161 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: It's a lot for the detective and his team to 162 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: get their heads around, but thankfully the Countess pediatricians are 163 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: on hand to answer questions. When I sat down with 164 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: doctor Phil Hammond, I asked him about this moment in 165 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: the investigation. 166 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 9: I don't like it. In a proper scientific investigation, you'd say, okay, 167 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 9: we're going to get someone independent to look at this. 168 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: If you recall, doctor Hammond is a retired doctor and 169 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: medical columnist for Private Eye, a popular current affairs magazine 170 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: in Britain, and he's written over thirty articles about the 171 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: Let Be case. 172 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 9: I think the first thing to say is that doctors 173 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 9: a human, so with suspect of the same biases and 174 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 9: temptations as everything else. I think the biggest failure in 175 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 9: that is that police allowed the doctors to investigate these 176 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 9: deaths and mark their own homework. 177 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Hammond says that it is clear that doctors wanted 178 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: the police to see things their way and to ignore 179 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: other issues that were plaguing the unit. 180 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 3: He tells me about the flurry. 181 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: Of emails the seven senior pediatricians from the Countess were 182 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: sending each other right as the police investigation was getting 183 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: under way. 184 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 9: They're saying, you know, we've got to make sure the 185 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 9: police act on this, and we'll cut this bit out 186 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 9: and here are my suggestions, what are yours? And it's 187 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 9: clearly they're gaming the information. They actually say, we want 188 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 9: to peak the interest of the police. 189 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: Specifically, doctor Jayram writes in one of those emails, quote, 190 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: should we highlight explicitly for these cases that LLL was 191 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: in attendance and in close proximity to the incubators. 192 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: This is, after all, the basis of. 193 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: Our concerns, and I think for the police to have 194 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: their interest piqued, we need to have that. 195 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 9: And I think that's just wrong that they shouldn't be 196 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 9: investigating that they were trusted as doctors. They were the 197 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 9: ones who raised concerns. 198 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: One of the things I've had to wrap my mind 199 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: around is that good people make mistakes. The consultants, like 200 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: even the doctors who were sort of cherry picking information 201 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: to make it palatable to the police. They were going 202 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: off of what seems like a gut feeling and out 203 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: of concern for patients. 204 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 9: I think in my interactions with doctor Jerrohm when I 205 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 9: first started investigating this, he appeared to me to be 206 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 9: very genuine in his beliefs. However, they spun the information 207 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 9: a removed it's about the baby's being really sick and 208 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 9: then not having enough staff. 209 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: Detective Hughes felt the doctor's help was so invaluable that 210 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: he would go on to publicly praise their contributions. In 211 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: an interview with The Observer, Hughes is quoted as saying 212 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: the doctors were the golden thread of the investigation. But 213 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be accurate or fair to say that detectives 214 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: based their entire investigation on the information provided by the doctors. 215 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 3: Far from it. 216 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: In fact, Operation Hummingbird doesn't truly kick off until detectives 217 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: are introduced to a completely different doctor, a doctor who's 218 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: never set foot in the Countess of Chester Hospital, but 219 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: one who becomes indispensable to the investigation. He's the man 220 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: reporters would take to calling the Welsh Wizard. 221 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 10: Dear Demander I enclose a letter I sent to Private 222 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 10: Eye yesterday. 223 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: This is an email I received from doctor Dowie Evans 224 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: last year, read by an actor. I had been briefly 225 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: corresponding with him in October of twenty twenty four and 226 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: again in twenty twenty six, but he never responded to 227 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: giving me a formal interview. But that didn't stop him 228 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: from sharing his thoughts via email. 229 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 10: Doctor Hammond has no experience of medical legal practice, and 230 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 10: as far as I know, has no pediatric or neonatology experience. 231 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 10: He's best known as a stand up comedian and writes 232 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 10: for satirical magazine Private Eye. 233 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: As you can tell, he's not doctor Hammond's biggest fan. 234 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 10: The Eye is not really qualified to engage on matters 235 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 10: as sensitive and complicated as the murder of little babies. 236 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: Doctor Evans is in his seventies, a grandfather, living out 237 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: his retirement in his beloved Welsh countryside. He has white hair, 238 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: fair complexion, gold rimmed glasses and a rotating supply of cardigans. 239 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: Early one Sunday morning in twenty seventeen, an article in 240 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: the Sunday Paper catches his attention, and, in true doctor 241 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: Evans fashion, he's inspired to fire off an email Dear Nick. 242 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: Nick is a contact at the National Crime Agency, a 243 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: sort of clearing house that connects expert witnesses with police departments. 244 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 10: I've read about the high death rate for babies in 245 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 10: Chester and that the police are investigating do they have 246 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 10: a pediatric neonatal conduct I was involved in neonatal medicine 247 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 10: for thirty years. 248 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Evans has been out of clinical practice for nearly 249 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: a decade, but he keeps busy by working as an 250 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: expert witness, mainly on cases of medical malpractice and child abuse. 251 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 10: If the Chester police have no one in mind, I'd 252 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 10: be interested to help. Sounds like my kind of case. 253 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 3: The police agree. 254 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Evans begins work on Operation Hummingbird as an expert 255 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: witness in the summer of twenty seventeen. Here he is 256 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: talking on the RAJ persad In Conversation podcast. 257 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 10: I said, if you suspect somebody, or you suspect some people, 258 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 10: don't I don't want to know. This is July twenty seventeen. 259 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 10: What I need is to get the notes of every 260 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 10: baby who's died and every baby who's collapsed from January 261 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 10: twenty fifteen to July twenty sixteen, not just the suspicious 262 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 10: ones or the ones you can't explain. I want all 263 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 10: of them. 264 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: That attitude, he goes on to say, allowed him to 265 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: approach the task of investigating in a completely unbiased way. 266 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: But the records from the police investigation, the ones detailing 267 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: doctor Evans's involvement in the case, they tell a different story. 268 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: According to doctor Hammond. 269 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 9: And he said, within ten minutes of looking at the 270 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 9: notes of the baby, I knew this was inflicted harm. 271 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 11: It's in the police thought. Oh and it was his certainty. 272 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: As long as there have been police and investigations, there 273 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: has been tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is when investigators get 274 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: so focused on one theory they may inadvertently ignore or 275 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: even deliberately suppress evidence that doesn't fit. You can think 276 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: of it as a species of confirmation bias, the human 277 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: tendency to look for evidence that confirms an established belief 278 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: or favored theory and to discount evidence that contradicts it. 279 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: It's a very dangerous problem, one that is at the 280 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: heart of many wrongful convictions, including mine. Even after the 281 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: true perpetrator's DNA was identified in and on the body 282 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: of my roommate, the investigators and the prosecutor, who already 283 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: believed I was somehow involved, ignored exonerating evidence like the 284 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: fact that none of my DNA was ever found in 285 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: the room where the murder occurred. But they also magnified 286 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: the importance of irrelevant evidence, like the fact that my 287 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: DNA was found in the bathroom, the bathroom I used 288 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: every day. It was tempting to think at the time 289 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: that they were simply out to railroad me, no matter 290 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: the cost. But I've learned to see that malice isn't 291 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: necessary to explain that behavior. 292 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: Justice can make mistakes because the machinery is run by 293 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: human beings. Human beings make mistakes. 294 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: John Sweeney from episode one, the former war correspondent with 295 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: The Unrulyed. He has done a very deep dive into 296 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: the investigation into Lucy Ledby's case. 297 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: I do not believe that the police did a proper 298 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: job when they took the advice of an expert who 299 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: knocked on their door. 300 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: John says that from the very beginning, Lucy was the 301 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: person at the end of the tunnel, and those with 302 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: the power to accuse her, charge her, and then prosecute 303 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: her saw nothing and no one else, and he believes 304 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: that included their star witness, doctor Evans aka the Welsh Wizard. 305 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: Essentially, the stististics don't make sense. They're wrong. The idea 306 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: of somebody being locked up, the idea of me being 307 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: locked up for a crime that didn't happen, or that 308 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: you're entirely innocent of that's a terrible, terrible thing. And 309 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: what happens if they're wrong? What happens if the doctors 310 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: have improperly excluded other alternative explanations. 311 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: John believes that doctor Evans only helped reinforce the police's 312 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: tunnel vision, that he was irresponsible with the way he 313 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: interpreted the evidence supplied by investigators, especially the information gathered 314 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: that showed Lucy was at work for every suspicious incident. 315 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 12: You know, you've got to be quite careful with the 316 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 12: statistics of it. 317 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: John Sweeney is not the only one with that opinion. 318 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: This is doctor Jane Hutton, a professor of statistics at 319 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: the University of Warwick. 320 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 12: I've been interested in mathematics for a long time and 321 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 12: also in using mathematics to address problems in the real world. 322 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Hutton, like doctor Evans, was hired by the Cheshire 323 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: Police to consult with their investigation into Lucy let be. 324 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 12: The first I knew, Butchlor's background noise was in about 325 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 12: April twenty eighteen when I was asked to get involved. 326 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: Doctor Hutton recalls that investigators were asking her to find 327 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: numbers that fit their theory. 328 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 12: Their initial thing was, we'd like you to help us 329 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 12: understand the statistical issues, and we would like you to 330 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 12: calculate a probability of one member of staff being present. 331 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 12: Can you come up with a figure of something like 332 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 12: one in a million for probability of somebody being on duty? 333 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 12: So I said, well, that's completely the wrong way to 334 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 12: do it. 335 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: That's like asking a fingerprint analyst, can you come up 336 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: with an explanation for why these two prints match instead 337 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: of asking them to determine if they are a match 338 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: or not. As doctor Hutton goes on to explain, when 339 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: it comes to the neonatal unit and infant deaths, finding 340 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: a cause of death isn't always straightforward. For doctor Hutton, 341 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: looking at neonatal deaths is a bit like being asked 342 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: to explain the exact cause of death of a very 343 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: old person. 344 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 12: You know, it can be slightly tricky to think, well, 345 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 12: was it the kidneys or the liberal the lungs or 346 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 12: the heart or the brain. So yet it always get 347 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 12: a very clear cause. And also, if you've got to 348 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 12: talk about an unexpected collapse of anybody in intensive care, 349 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 12: you're in intensive care because you're seriously unstable. 350 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: And as Hutton says, the babies in the Countess's neonatal 351 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: unit were sick babies. 352 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 12: The best you can be a stable contrary to what 353 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 12: was said in the trial that the babies were well. 354 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 12: If they were well, they were taking up places they 355 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 12: didn't need. 356 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Hutton adds that the information she was given on 357 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: the babies who died or collapsed was not only insufficient, 358 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: but also income example, all. 359 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 12: The deaths and look at all the factors of the deaths, 360 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 12: and then you might say, okay, we want to look 361 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 12: at twins who didn't die, or we want to look 362 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 12: at triplets who didn't die, or so on. 363 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 11: So you've got a comparison group. 364 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: Without all the needed information rigorously and properly collected, Doctor 365 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: Hutton could not determine anything. 366 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 12: So I basically said, that is not what I will do, 367 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 12: because that is the wrong thing to do. I can 368 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 12: tell you what the correct approach is, and I did 369 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 12: at some meetings discussing the correct approach, what was needed, 370 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 12: and so on. 371 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: I'll be the first to admit that my brain isn't 372 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: wired for math and statistics. But even I can tell 373 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: you you don't need a PhD in statistics to understand 374 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: what was lacking here. Basically, Hutton needed a bigger sample size. 375 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 3: She needed more. 376 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: Information on the babies and their mothers, the pregnancies and 377 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: the outcomes. For Hutton, cherry picking the evidence that way 378 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: is a recipe for tunnel vision. 379 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 12: You need to interpret them correctly. You need to be 380 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 12: very aware of cognitive bias and the risks of bias 381 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 12: in people looking for evidence. 382 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: But doctor Hutton says her warnings seemed to fall on 383 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: deaf ears. 384 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 12: And then essentially it went quiet, and I would get 385 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 12: the old trickle of oh, we're waiting for the Crime 386 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 12: Prosecution Service. They might have different views about evidence, so 387 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 12: just went silent. 388 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: In fact, the next time doctor Hutton heard anything substantial 389 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: about the Lucy let Be case was when let Be 390 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: was arrested. 391 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 12: You don't start by assuming that there's murder when you 392 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 12: have no evidence. 393 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: Doctor Hutton might have had real trouble with the task 394 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: she was given by the police, but doctor Dowie Evans, 395 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: he would go on to be the prosecution star witness. 396 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: Just before the trial, the doctors of the Countess helped 397 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: police piece together a graph. On one side of the 398 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: graph the babies who had collapsed or died. On the 399 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: other a list of the nurses on staff, and right 400 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: down the middle under Lucy's name, a column of x'es. 401 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: She was there for every single suspicious incident. But for 402 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: doctor Hutton that graph proved nothing. 403 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 12: Well, all the graph shows is was prison when she 404 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 12: was present. It doesn't actually show you anything else than that. 405 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: You know, one thing that this this raises is the 406 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: question of why Lucy? Why are they targeting her? I'm 407 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: back speaking with journalist John Sweeney. Is it just because 408 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: she's conveniently a young woman who's there at the wrong 409 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: place at the wrong time? Like, why are the police 410 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: willing to assume you know, criminal intent or criminal fault, 411 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: criminal wrongdoing? I mean, and I ask this also from 412 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: a very personal place, right because I also you know, 413 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: to this day, am like, why me, what was it 414 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: about me that like made the entire world think that 415 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: I was some kind of insane murder orgy? Why? 416 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 9: Why? 417 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: So? 418 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: What happens with Lucy is I think she's just like 419 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: you were. You were very unlucky, and I think she 420 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: was very unlucky, and she was the wrong woman in 421 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: the wrong place. And then you've got the police. Now, 422 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: the police like nailing mass murderers. You've learned from Viscer experience. 423 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: So you've got to come out, and you've got to 424 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: come out fighting. You do, because otherwise. 425 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: The narrative is this boulder that rolls down the hill 426 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: and you can't stop it. 427 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 3: The more momentum it gets. 428 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 5: It's true, it's. 429 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: Fair to ask why Lucy was the target. From our 430 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: work and other investigations into her case, it's clear there 431 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: are problems with the investigation, and the tunnel vision of 432 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: the police seems obvious but not completely unfounded. Even if 433 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: it didn't prove that she was guilt. Lucy was in 434 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: the wrong place at the wrong time a lot, and 435 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: I can see how that might give rise to suspicion. 436 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: And there was more because on the day that the 437 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: police searched Lucy's house and office, they discovered something that 438 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: seemed like definitive proof of her guilt on post it notes, 439 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: on sheets of paper, and in her diaries. Were words 440 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: and scribbles written by Lucy that pointed to the evil 441 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: the police believed lived inside the young. 442 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 4: Nurse, basically as a note saying, I don't deserve to live. 443 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 4: I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough 444 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 4: to care for them. And then in capital letters leaping 445 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 4: out at you, I am evil. I did this. That's 446 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 4: a very striking visual piece of evidence for the jury. 447 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 4: So we got that very early on. And of course 448 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 4: you look at that and you think, ah, well, this 449 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 4: could be game O her already here where you know, 450 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 4: this person's literally confessed to what she's done. 451 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 3: Next on doubt the case of Lucy. 452 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 13: Let Be, physical evidence cannot lie. Insulin testing from this 453 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 13: laboratory should not be used as evidence of poisoning. They 454 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 13: knew that what they were doing was not the proper 455 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 13: way and should not be used as evidence in the case, 456 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 13: but yet they did it anyway. 457 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 4: And then finally just comes in, all Rice, we gonna 458 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 4: stand up. And that's that's the start of the court deck. 459 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: There was a woman accused of. 460 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 4: The murders of seven babies. You were going to see a. 461 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 11: In person. 462 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 3: Doubt. 463 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: The case of Lucy let Be is brought to you 464 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: by Vespucci, iHeart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. 465 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: I've been your Host Amanda Knox. 466 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: This episode was written by clusy To Olivera, Kathleen Goldhar, 467 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: and Natalia Rodriguez. The co producers were Clusy To Olivera 468 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: and Lucy Ditchmont. The assistant producer was Amy Gill. Senior 469 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: producer is Natalia Rodriguez. Audio mix by Tom Biddle. The 470 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: theme music was written by Tom Biddle, story editing by 471 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 1: Kathleen Goldhar. Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The 472 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. 473 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, 474 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin. 475 00:29:53,000 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 3: Thank you for listening.