WEBVTT - Nigeria's Foreign Minister Yusuf Tuggar Talks Geopolitical Uncertainty 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to pause for a conversation about Africa this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>Nigeria's economy grew at its fastest pace in three years

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of twenty twenty four, after a period

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<v Speaker 2>of some turbulence and economic slowdown. GDP in fact grew

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<v Speaker 2>by three point eight four percent in annual terms, led

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<v Speaker 2>by the services sector. But as all prices look set

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<v Speaker 2>to stall this year, Nigeria is looking to plug the

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<v Speaker 2>gap with international trade and foreign direct investment. And to

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<v Speaker 2>our guests in the radio studio this morning, delighted to

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<v Speaker 2>welcome YUCF Tuga, who is the Minister of Foreign Affairs

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<v Speaker 2>of Nigeria on a visit to the UK today. Of one,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome to you alongside our Bloomberg reported tiwa Ada Baio

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<v Speaker 2>for a conversation about Nigeria this morning. But of course

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<v Speaker 2>we have to speak firstly about the geopolitical flux that

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<v Speaker 2>we are in currently, President Trump reversing US support for US,

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<v Speaker 2>putting tariffs on allies, reshaping in many senses the Western axis.

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<v Speaker 2>Where do you think, Minister, that Nigeria's place is in

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<v Speaker 2>this new world order?

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, morning, Nigeria's place is first and foremost, sitting

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<v Speaker 1>on two hundred and seven trillion cubic feet of gas,

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<v Speaker 1>so it presents opportunity for US as a destination for

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<v Speaker 1>big tech, for AI data miners. These are things that

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<v Speaker 1>consume a lot of energy, and energy we have and

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<v Speaker 1>we've always maintained the position that having a reliable and

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<v Speaker 1>affordable source of energy is something that should go hand

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<v Speaker 1>in hand hand with the energy transition, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>we've been working on.

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<v Speaker 3>Minister, Thank you for joining us. We're just talking about

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<v Speaker 3>the rich resources in Nigeria and in the continent of

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<v Speaker 3>Africa as a whole. But last week at the G

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<v Speaker 3>twenty meetings in South Africa, notable absences were senior Trump

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<v Speaker 3>administration officials. Do they recognize the potential of Nigeria and

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<v Speaker 3>of Africa?

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<v Speaker 1>They do. I believe they do because there are US

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<v Speaker 1>IOCs in Nigeria. Chevron is there, Exomobile is there, and

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<v Speaker 1>Nigeria and the US have maintained good relations, close relations

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<v Speaker 1>since the inception of Nigeria since Nineteis we became independent

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen sixty, so they're not oblivious to what is

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<v Speaker 1>going on in Nigeria. We're currently also working on two

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<v Speaker 1>significant gas pipelines. We have the African Atlantic Gas Pipeline

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<v Speaker 1>that would see Nigerian gas delivered to Morocco via almost

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen African West African littoral states and then possibly onto

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<v Speaker 1>Europe via the magrab line. And then we have the

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<v Speaker 1>Transaharent Gas pipeline, also through the DJL onto Algeria and

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<v Speaker 1>possibly to Europe.

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<v Speaker 3>Given that history of long cooperation, then were you disappointed

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<v Speaker 3>not to see them at that G twenty meeting in

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<v Speaker 3>South Africa on the continent.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, they were not present, they had a representative there.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe there was a shaget affair from the US

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<v Speaker 1>embassy in South Africa. So I mean these things happened.

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<v Speaker 1>You have summits where China doesn't show up or Russia

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't show up. But it's not to say that in

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<v Speaker 1>the US no longer has a vested interest in matters

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<v Speaker 1>that affect the global economy. But more importantly, we want

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<v Speaker 1>to see Nigeria also in the in the G twenty

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<v Speaker 1>speaking up for the global South, for Africa, for Sub

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<v Speaker 1>Saharan Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>But that is the question mark, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 3>Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Around the Trump White House, the concern that actually the

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<v Speaker 2>priority is on economic ties, you know, perhaps to the

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<v Speaker 2>deptment of security issues. And I was listening to one

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<v Speaker 2>of your speeches last week. You were talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>need to respect sovereign states, the need, for example, for

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<v Speaker 2>a two state framework in Israel, and girls is the

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<v Speaker 2>United States still a reliable partner for you?

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<v Speaker 1>For US? The US remains a reliable partner because we

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<v Speaker 1>have never been focus exclusively on multilateralism and lulling ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>into thinking that national interest was normal, or the Westphalian

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<v Speaker 1>state system was no longer in existence because of multilateralism.

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<v Speaker 1>They go hand in hand. It's always remained there. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's if you like the diff between realism and constructive constructivism,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've always existed side by side. And that's why

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose this was a wake up call or rude awakenic.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's a reality check and we must get on

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<v Speaker 1>with diplomacy, with state craft and work around things. But

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<v Speaker 1>that's the beauty of democracy as well, because we have

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<v Speaker 1>term limits, we have changes in policy, and when we

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<v Speaker 1>lose elections, we go back to think tanks and hone

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<v Speaker 1>our skills and our policies and come back. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>geopolitics and the international system is an anarchic system and

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<v Speaker 1>it always will be.

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<v Speaker 3>Just on that point of the changing face of geopolitics

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<v Speaker 3>and particularly around diplomacy, you say that the election of

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<v Speaker 3>Donald Trump has been a wake up call or reality check.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see that potential changing your approach to diplomacy,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly around Nigeria's relationship with China. There's been historically deep

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<v Speaker 3>economic ties, particularly in relation to infrastructure, but we've just

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<v Speaker 3>seen this morning the US has doubled tariff levies on China.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see that changing your relationship with China? Will

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<v Speaker 3>you have to tread more carefully?

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps, no, we don't. Nigeria is a fearless country. Nigeria's

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<v Speaker 1>foreign policy has always been guided by moral precepts and

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<v Speaker 1>ethical conduct, and we were non aligned and now the

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<v Speaker 1>fullconm of our foreign policy is strategical autonomy. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>more or less the same thing. So we look out

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<v Speaker 1>for our national interims interest but at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>we're responsible citizens of the world and we make sure

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<v Speaker 1>we work with others and we don't allow anyone to

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<v Speaker 1>dictate to us who our friends should be.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, have you seen a drop off in support from allies,

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<v Speaker 2>including the US and UK when it comes to domestic

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<v Speaker 2>security issues, if we can talk about that for a moment,

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<v Speaker 2>including military support for the fight the battle against Bocohr

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<v Speaker 2>Arm for example. Is there been a drop off in

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of support.

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<v Speaker 1>No way of not. We never had US troops in Nigeria,

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<v Speaker 1>unlike some of our neighbors. We never had UK troops

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<v Speaker 1>in our neighbors, and unlike our neighbors, so we continue

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<v Speaker 1>to collaborate with them. We always had a problem with

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<v Speaker 1>the Leahy law. We weren't being sold equipment and we

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<v Speaker 1>have resorted to besides sourcing it in other countries, we're

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<v Speaker 1>also looking to manufacture produce so that you know, we

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<v Speaker 1>go back to that strategic autonomy I was speaking to.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're not like some of our neighbors that had

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<v Speaker 1>them their presence. And it was Nigeria that led Ecomogue

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<v Speaker 1>to resettle Sira Leone, it was Nigeria that led Ecomogue

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<v Speaker 1>to resettle Liberia. We actually succeeded in peace building where

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<v Speaker 1>others actually failed. And some of the failures that we're

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<v Speaker 1>experiencing today in the Sahel have to do with the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that Nigeria was not included. Nigeria was not part

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<v Speaker 1>of the G five Sahl Operation Barkhani eus Hell strategy.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of the guest pipeline, want to go back

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<v Speaker 2>then to the economics of it. How big do you

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<v Speaker 2>think that that business is going to be and how

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<v Speaker 2>reliable will that be? If you're trying to get that

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<v Speaker 2>pipeline into.

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<v Speaker 1>It's going to be huge. We would look to attract

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<v Speaker 1>US investors, European investors.

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese on this trip that that might happen.

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<v Speaker 1>We have brought it up, discussions ongoing. We have a

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<v Speaker 1>platform further discussions with the United Kingdom. We have what

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<v Speaker 1>we refer to as strategic partnership that covers different sectors.

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<v Speaker 1>So that is something we're going to pursue further.

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<v Speaker 3>I just have to ask you, minister, since you're in

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<v Speaker 3>the UK, on the question of the Beneath bronzes. We

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<v Speaker 3>had recently that the Netherlands are planning on sending back

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<v Speaker 3>over a hundred Beneaen bronzes. There are supposedly nine hundred

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<v Speaker 3>just in the British Museum alone. In your discussions with

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<v Speaker 3>UK officials on your visit, is that something you've raised

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<v Speaker 3>and is it something that you want to see those

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<v Speaker 3>Beneen bronzes returned to Nigeria.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, certainly it's something that our mission here, our Embassy,

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<v Speaker 1>our High Commission, has been working on and has been

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<v Speaker 1>discussing with the British authorities. I know the subject very

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<v Speaker 1>well because as ambassador in Germany I worked on the

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<v Speaker 1>return of one three hundred and twenty eight bill in

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<v Speaker 1>bronzes from German public museums. So it's not easy, and

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<v Speaker 1>especially in a country like the United Kingdom where and

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<v Speaker 1>France where the laws were changed or made specifically for

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<v Speaker 1>that to sort of preclude the return. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So that on the bid involves is in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>you're here to forge greater alliances with businesses in the

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<v Speaker 2>UK to try to attract inward investment and especially into

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<v Speaker 2>the tech sector in Nigeria. What is the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>growth potential that you see? What are the sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>noises that you've heard from businesses here about those sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of business ties between the two. What's the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>biggest hope that you've got.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a huge potential in business process outsourcing because it's

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<v Speaker 1>for us, it's a growth area and we see it

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<v Speaker 1>also as a panicier to the irksome debate between the

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<v Speaker 1>two countries to do with irregular migration because we have businesses.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, I came along with one of them that

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<v Speaker 1>is on the lookout for for for Nigerians with with

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<v Speaker 1>British accents to recruit in her business. In her bp

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<v Speaker 1>O business. She is also working on expanding her remote

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<v Speaker 1>learning business aspect of the business because we have seen

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<v Speaker 1>a reduction in the issuance of visas to Nigerians to

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<v Speaker 1>British universities, and we know that the British universities are

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<v Speaker 1>quite keen on having Nigerians because they continue to grant

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<v Speaker 1>them admission, but they can't get enough visas. So remote

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<v Speaker 1>learning might be an alternative to that, so long as

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<v Speaker 1>it would be properly structured, accredited and all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>We have to leave it there, Yusuf Tuga, as Minister

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<v Speaker 2>of Foreign Affairs of Nigeria, but we thank you very

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<v Speaker 2>much for coming in person into the radio studio and

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<v Speaker 2>just giving us some of the details of your trip

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<v Speaker 2>to the UK some of the main priorities for Nigeria

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<v Speaker 2>alongside Bloomberg reported tia Adebayo. Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>your time,