1
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

2
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 2: I'd like to pause for a conversation about Africa this morning.

3
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 2: Nigeria's economy grew at its fastest pace in three years

4
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,000
Speaker 2: at the end of twenty twenty four, after a period

5
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,479
Speaker 2: of some turbulence and economic slowdown. GDP in fact grew

6
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,639
Speaker 2: by three point eight four percent in annual terms, led

7
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 2: by the services sector. But as all prices look set

8
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,639
Speaker 2: to stall this year, Nigeria is looking to plug the

9
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 2: gap with international trade and foreign direct investment. And to

10
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,440
Speaker 2: our guests in the radio studio this morning, delighted to

11
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 2: welcome YUCF Tuga, who is the Minister of Foreign Affairs

12
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 2: of Nigeria on a visit to the UK today. Of one,

13
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 2: welcome to you alongside our Bloomberg reported tiwa Ada Baio

14
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 2: for a conversation about Nigeria this morning. But of course

15
00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 2: we have to speak firstly about the geopolitical flux that

16
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 2: we are in currently, President Trump reversing US support for US,

17
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 2: putting tariffs on allies, reshaping in many senses the Western axis.

18
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,120
Speaker 2: Where do you think, Minister, that Nigeria's place is in

19
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 2: this new world order?

20
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 1: Good morning, morning, Nigeria's place is first and foremost, sitting

21
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 1: on two hundred and seven trillion cubic feet of gas,

22
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 1: so it presents opportunity for US as a destination for

23
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: big tech, for AI data miners. These are things that

24
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 1: consume a lot of energy, and energy we have and

25
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,679
Speaker 1: we've always maintained the position that having a reliable and

26
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 1: affordable source of energy is something that should go hand

27
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: in hand hand with the energy transition, and that's what

28
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: we've been working on.

29
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,639
Speaker 3: Minister, Thank you for joining us. We're just talking about

30
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,640
Speaker 3: the rich resources in Nigeria and in the continent of

31
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 3: Africa as a whole. But last week at the G

32
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 3: twenty meetings in South Africa, notable absences were senior Trump

33
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 3: administration officials. Do they recognize the potential of Nigeria and

34
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 3: of Africa?

35
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: They do. I believe they do because there are US

36
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 1: IOCs in Nigeria. Chevron is there, Exomobile is there, and

37
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,800
Speaker 1: Nigeria and the US have maintained good relations, close relations

38
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 1: since the inception of Nigeria since Nineteis we became independent

39
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty, so they're not oblivious to what is

40
00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 1: going on in Nigeria. We're currently also working on two

41
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,920
Speaker 1: significant gas pipelines. We have the African Atlantic Gas Pipeline

42
00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 1: that would see Nigerian gas delivered to Morocco via almost

43
00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 1: fifteen African West African littoral states and then possibly onto

44
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,680
Speaker 1: Europe via the magrab line. And then we have the

45
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:11,800
Speaker 1: Transaharent Gas pipeline, also through the DJL onto Algeria and

46
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:12,799
Speaker 1: possibly to Europe.

47
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 3: Given that history of long cooperation, then were you disappointed

48
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 3: not to see them at that G twenty meeting in

49
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 3: South Africa on the continent.

50
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 1: Well, they were not present, they had a representative there.

51
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,400
Speaker 1: I believe there was a shaget affair from the US

52
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: embassy in South Africa. So I mean these things happened.

53
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,280
Speaker 1: You have summits where China doesn't show up or Russia

54
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 1: doesn't show up. But it's not to say that in

55
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: the US no longer has a vested interest in matters

56
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: that affect the global economy. But more importantly, we want

57
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 1: to see Nigeria also in the in the G twenty

58
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,400
Speaker 1: speaking up for the global South, for Africa, for Sub

59
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: Saharan Africa.

60
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 2: But that is the question mark, isn't it?

61
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 3: Now?

62
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 2: Around the Trump White House, the concern that actually the

63
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 2: priority is on economic ties, you know, perhaps to the

64
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 2: deptment of security issues. And I was listening to one

65
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,680
Speaker 2: of your speeches last week. You were talking about the

66
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,599
Speaker 2: need to respect sovereign states, the need, for example, for

67
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 2: a two state framework in Israel, and girls is the

68
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,560
Speaker 2: United States still a reliable partner for you?

69
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,680
Speaker 1: For US? The US remains a reliable partner because we

70
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:43,160
Speaker 1: have never been focus exclusively on multilateralism and lulling ourselves

71
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,640
Speaker 1: into thinking that national interest was normal, or the Westphalian

72
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 1: state system was no longer in existence because of multilateralism.

73
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 1: They go hand in hand. It's always remained there. So

74
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:03,799
Speaker 1: it's if you like the diff between realism and constructive constructivism,

75
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,280
Speaker 1: and they've always existed side by side. And that's why

76
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 1: I suppose this was a wake up call or rude awakenic.

77
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 1: But it's a reality check and we must get on

78
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: with diplomacy, with state craft and work around things. But

79
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,440
Speaker 1: that's the beauty of democracy as well, because we have

80
00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 1: term limits, we have changes in policy, and when we

81
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 1: lose elections, we go back to think tanks and hone

82
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: our skills and our policies and come back. So that's

83
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: geopolitics and the international system is an anarchic system and

84
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,040
Speaker 1: it always will be.

85
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,279
Speaker 3: Just on that point of the changing face of geopolitics

86
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 3: and particularly around diplomacy, you say that the election of

87
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,240
Speaker 3: Donald Trump has been a wake up call or reality check.

88
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 3: Do you see that potential changing your approach to diplomacy,

89
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 3: particularly around Nigeria's relationship with China. There's been historically deep

90
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 3: economic ties, particularly in relation to infrastructure, but we've just

91
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 3: seen this morning the US has doubled tariff levies on China.

92
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 3: Do you see that changing your relationship with China? Will

93
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 3: you have to tread more carefully?

94
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 1: Perhaps, no, we don't. Nigeria is a fearless country. Nigeria's

95
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,920
Speaker 1: foreign policy has always been guided by moral precepts and

96
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 1: ethical conduct, and we were non aligned and now the

97
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,479
Speaker 1: fullconm of our foreign policy is strategical autonomy. So it's

98
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 1: more or less the same thing. So we look out

99
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 1: for our national interims interest but at the same time,

100
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 1: we're responsible citizens of the world and we make sure

101
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,240
Speaker 1: we work with others and we don't allow anyone to

102
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,280
Speaker 1: dictate to us who our friends should be.

103
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,760
Speaker 2: Okay, have you seen a drop off in support from allies,

104
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 2: including the US and UK when it comes to domestic

105
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 2: security issues, if we can talk about that for a moment,

106
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,560
Speaker 2: including military support for the fight the battle against Bocohr

107
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 2: Arm for example. Is there been a drop off in

108
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 2: that sort of support.

109
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 1: No way of not. We never had US troops in Nigeria,

110
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 1: unlike some of our neighbors. We never had UK troops

111
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: in our neighbors, and unlike our neighbors, so we continue

112
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: to collaborate with them. We always had a problem with

113
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 1: the Leahy law. We weren't being sold equipment and we

114
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: have resorted to besides sourcing it in other countries, we're

115
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 1: also looking to manufacture produce so that you know, we

116
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,760
Speaker 1: go back to that strategic autonomy I was speaking to.

117
00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 1: So we're not like some of our neighbors that had

118
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: them their presence. And it was Nigeria that led Ecomogue

119
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,400
Speaker 1: to resettle Sira Leone, it was Nigeria that led Ecomogue

120
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: to resettle Liberia. We actually succeeded in peace building where

121
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,080
Speaker 1: others actually failed. And some of the failures that we're

122
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,880
Speaker 1: experiencing today in the Sahel have to do with the

123
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: fact that Nigeria was not included. Nigeria was not part

124
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 1: of the G five Sahl Operation Barkhani eus Hell strategy.

125
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,880
Speaker 2: In terms of the guest pipeline, want to go back

126
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,360
Speaker 2: then to the economics of it. How big do you

127
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 2: think that that business is going to be and how

128
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,800
Speaker 2: reliable will that be? If you're trying to get that

129
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:44,800
Speaker 2: pipeline into.

130
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: It's going to be huge. We would look to attract

131
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: US investors, European investors.

132
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 2: Chinese on this trip that that might happen.

133
00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: We have brought it up, discussions ongoing. We have a

134
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,199
Speaker 1: platform further discussions with the United Kingdom. We have what

135
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:15,719
Speaker 1: we refer to as strategic partnership that covers different sectors.

136
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 1: So that is something we're going to pursue further.

137
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 3: I just have to ask you, minister, since you're in

138
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 3: the UK, on the question of the Beneath bronzes. We

139
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,439
Speaker 3: had recently that the Netherlands are planning on sending back

140
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 3: over a hundred Beneaen bronzes. There are supposedly nine hundred

141
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 3: just in the British Museum alone. In your discussions with

142
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,400
Speaker 3: UK officials on your visit, is that something you've raised

143
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,079
Speaker 3: and is it something that you want to see those

144
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 3: Beneen bronzes returned to Nigeria.

145
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,119
Speaker 1: Well, certainly it's something that our mission here, our Embassy,

146
00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,600
Speaker 1: our High Commission, has been working on and has been

147
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: discussing with the British authorities. I know the subject very

148
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,680
Speaker 1: well because as ambassador in Germany I worked on the

149
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:06,200
Speaker 1: return of one three hundred and twenty eight bill in

150
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,640
Speaker 1: bronzes from German public museums. So it's not easy, and

151
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,560
Speaker 1: especially in a country like the United Kingdom where and

152
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 1: France where the laws were changed or made specifically for

153
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 1: that to sort of preclude the return. Okay.

154
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,559
Speaker 2: So that on the bid involves is in terms of

155
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,160
Speaker 2: you're here to forge greater alliances with businesses in the

156
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,600
Speaker 2: UK to try to attract inward investment and especially into

157
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 2: the tech sector in Nigeria. What is the kind of

158
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,079
Speaker 2: growth potential that you see? What are the sorts of

159
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,560
Speaker 2: noises that you've heard from businesses here about those sorts

160
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,320
Speaker 2: of business ties between the two. What's the kind of

161
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 2: biggest hope that you've got.

162
00:10:54,160 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: There's a huge potential in business process outsourcing because it's

163
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: for us, it's a growth area and we see it

164
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 1: also as a panicier to the irksome debate between the

165
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 1: two countries to do with irregular migration because we have businesses.

166
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 1: In fact, I came along with one of them that

167
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 1: is on the lookout for for for Nigerians with with

168
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,840
Speaker 1: British accents to recruit in her business. In her bp

169
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 1: O business. She is also working on expanding her remote

170
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: learning business aspect of the business because we have seen

171
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,839
Speaker 1: a reduction in the issuance of visas to Nigerians to

172
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: British universities, and we know that the British universities are

173
00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: quite keen on having Nigerians because they continue to grant

174
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 1: them admission, but they can't get enough visas. So remote

175
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: learning might be an alternative to that, so long as

176
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: it would be properly structured, accredited and all of that.

177
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,680
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

178
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,760
Speaker 2: We have to leave it there, Yusuf Tuga, as Minister

179
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 2: of Foreign Affairs of Nigeria, but we thank you very

180
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 2: much for coming in person into the radio studio and

181
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 2: just giving us some of the details of your trip

182
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 2: to the UK some of the main priorities for Nigeria

183
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 2: alongside Bloomberg reported tia Adebayo. Thank you so much for

184
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 2: your time,