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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: The so called Cesspool Princess, twenty seven year old Lauren Pazienza.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember her name, because I'll

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Speaker 2: never forget it. Accused of shoving an eighty seven year

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Speaker 2: old beloved voice coach, a voice teacher to the.

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Speaker 3: Sidewalk she died.

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Speaker 2: Now has a defense, and the defense is, oh, she

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Speaker 2: didn't know what she was doing. She had two bottles

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Speaker 2: of wine, drugs and a ton of weed.

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Speaker 3: That's the defense.

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Speaker 2: This while her defense lawyer, high profile lawyer Author Idolla,

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Speaker 2: claims his client is a overcharged you know what I

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Speaker 2: said to that? Now this is a technical legal term

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Speaker 2: bs bs.

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Speaker 3: I'mancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and

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Speaker 2: series XEM one eleven. The gall of saying she's innocent.

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Speaker 2: She's not guilty because she had two bottles of wine,

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Speaker 2: drugs and a quote ton of weed. Take a listen

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Speaker 2: to our friends a crime online.

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Speaker 4: The attorney for New York City's sidewalk shover Lauren Posienza,

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Speaker 4: claims the spoiled socialite was a drunk and high mess

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Speaker 4: the night she allegedly pushed legendary Broadway singing coach Barbara Augustrin,

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Speaker 4: causing the eighty seven year old to fall and later

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Speaker 4: die from her injuries. Posienza's defense attorney, Arthur Idalla, standing

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Speaker 4: outside the Manhattan Criminal Court room, said, quote, she had drugs,

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Speaker 4: maybe two bottles of wine and a ton of marijuana. Unquote.

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Speaker 4: Posienza's facing charges of man's and assault for the unprovoked

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Speaker 4: attack on Gustern. After Pasienza allegedly shoved her, the eighty

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Speaker 4: seven year old legend fell and hit her head. She

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Speaker 4: died five days later from those injuries. The twenty seven

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Speaker 4: year old has been held at Riker's Island, but her

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Speaker 4: lawyer said she's close to agreeing to a plea deal.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I don't know why this

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Speaker 2: case should not go to trial. And this young woman,

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Speaker 2: well she's not that young. She's twenty seven years old,

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Speaker 2: old enough to know better. Shouldn't get the max. The

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Speaker 2: victim in this case, Barbara Mayor Gustern, was not just

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Speaker 2: a legend in the singing industry. She's a beloved mother

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Speaker 2: and grandmother. Joining me right now in addition to an

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Speaker 2: all star panel is her grandson aj Aj Mayor Gustern.

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Speaker 2: Aj thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I hope you had already heard of the defense, and

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Speaker 2: I definitely put that in air quotes. Don't want to

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Speaker 2: be the one to tell you to break it to

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Speaker 2: you that the defense in this case is that she

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Speaker 2: the defendant, the cesspool princess as she is called, and

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Speaker 2: she gets that name. I think Tony di Stefano is

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Speaker 2: with us from Newsday. Tony, doesn't she get the name

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Speaker 2: cesspool princess? She gets it because her father is a

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Speaker 2: millionaire that digs septic tanks and all sorts of related

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Speaker 2: products and services.

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Speaker 6: That's correct. He has a business on Long Island, and

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Speaker 6: you know it's basically a cesspool cleaning and maintenance business.

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Speaker 6: And I suppose he's done pretty well. He's got a

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Speaker 6: nice home and port. Jeff So poor Jefferson. So you

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Speaker 6: know that's where that's where she gets that Moniker.

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Speaker 2: Well, the reality is is she has been given everything

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Speaker 2: in life on a silver platter. Advantages, schools, vacations, clothes

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Speaker 2: most people could only dream up. And this is what happened.

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Speaker 2: Back to AJ Mayor Gustern, this is Barbara Gustern's grandson, AJ.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of the defense that she should

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Speaker 2: somehow get leniency because she had had two bottles of wine, drugs,

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Speaker 2: and a quote ton of weed the night that she

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Speaker 2: shoved your grandmother to her death.

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Speaker 5: Sure, I have been following this case quite closely, and

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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting actually that her father recently seems

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Speaker 5: to have changed the name of his business. I think

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Speaker 5: the business have their name in it, and they've since

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Speaker 5: changed it. But I think the defense is completely ridiculous,

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Speaker 5: you know. I think in particular, I saw a mention

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Speaker 5: of xanax, and anybody who's prescribed xanx should know that

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Speaker 5: when you mix it with alcohol, it leads to aggression. Rights.

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Speaker 5: It's a common thing of xanx, and I know plenty

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Speaker 5: of other people who have taken, you know, a little

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Speaker 5: bit of wine and weed and not done this. So

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Speaker 5: people do it every day. It's completely ridiculous that she

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Speaker 5: would resort to this.

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Speaker 3: A Jay.

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Speaker 2: Were you with your grandmother till the end.

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Speaker 5: I was, I was holding her hand right when she passed.

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Speaker 2: I read about that, and it just brings to mind

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Speaker 2: being in the hospital room beside my dad when he

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Speaker 2: passed away, and I'll never forget that, just sitting in

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Speaker 2: the room after he had already gone to heaven and

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Speaker 2: wondering why that had to happen. It was exact same

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Speaker 2: age as your grandma. And when I hear this woman's

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Speaker 2: lawyer claimed she was quote overcharged and that she should

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Speaker 2: not be held accountable because she was drunk and high.

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Speaker 2: That's not working for me with me right now. You

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Speaker 2: know him well, renowned former chief medical examiner in New

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Speaker 2: York City, passed co director for New York State Police

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Speaker 2: Medico Legal Investigations Unit, and author of American Autopsy, the

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Speaker 2: famed doctor Michael Bodden is joining us. Doctor Bond, thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. What idiot would mix drugs

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Speaker 2: weed and two bottles of wine.

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Speaker 7: Well, unfortunately there are a lot of such idiots around

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Speaker 7: the drink alcohol and use drugs much stronger than weed

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Speaker 7: in our culture right now. But the kind of defense

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Speaker 7: author Adala is a very good lawyer. I used to

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Speaker 7: work with him when I started out with his father.

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Speaker 7: His father was one of the top homicide prosecutors in

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Speaker 7: the Manhattan District Attorney's Office that goes back a while

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Speaker 7: in the seventies in a while, and he is also

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Speaker 7: very good lawyer. But the defense doesn't have much merit.

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Speaker 7: It's not unreasonable if a defense lawyer doesn't have any

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Speaker 7: better defense is to say, well, my client, my defendant

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Speaker 7: was drunk, he'd been drinking before he shot his wife,

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Speaker 7: and he didn't really know what he's doing. And that

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Speaker 7: may be partially true, that if you have a lot

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Speaker 7: of alcohol you don't quite know what you're doing. But

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Speaker 7: as soon as you start telling, you know when you're

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Speaker 7: taking the alcohol, you know when you're taking the weed.

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Speaker 7: And those are conscious decisions and they have consequences. And

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Speaker 7: I think for that reason usually always in my experience,

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Speaker 7: because I've been a number of testimonies where the defense

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Speaker 7: was the person didn't know what he was doing because

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Speaker 7: it was on amphetamines, it was in drugs, he was

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Speaker 7: most commonly on alcohol. And it never works because the

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Speaker 7: legal concept is it isn't just that you're not in

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Speaker 7: possession of all your faculties. It's because you knew that.

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Speaker 7: You should have known that when you started drinking the

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Speaker 7: alcohol in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Biden guys with me, Doctor Michael Biden, you know

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Speaker 2: him well. You and I would spend many hours talking,

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Speaker 2: including Arthur Idolla, remember back at Court TV.

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Speaker 7: Yes, well, those were the days good times.

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Speaker 2: So we've had many opportunities to question Arthur Idolla and

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Speaker 2: he is a very very good lawyer. I guess it

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Speaker 2: runs in the family because his father was a great prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is, and let me throw this to

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Speaker 2: James Shellna joining me, high profile lawyer out of the

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Speaker 2: Atlanta metro area with a shell Nut law firm, not

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Speaker 2: just for now lawyer, but was with major case division.

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Speaker 2: Swat James shell Nut. If the I was drunk defense

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Speaker 2: was legitimate, everybody in the Fulton County jail will be

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Speaker 2: out right now. Everybody goes, yeah, I was drunk. That

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Speaker 2: I mean the letter of the law, the black and

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Speaker 2: white letter of the law is voluntary use of drugs

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Speaker 2: or alcohol is not a defense under the law unless

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Speaker 2: it can be proved the defendant was comatose, truly, truly

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Speaker 2: blacked out. But that would require you to be laying out,

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Speaker 2: flat out comentos.

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Speaker 3: This woman was not comotos.

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Speaker 2: She was angry after a fight with her fiance, had

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Speaker 2: a head of esteem, was drunk and high and using drugs.

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Speaker 2: According to her lawyer, she was anything but comatose.

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Speaker 8: Oh, I agree hundred percent, Lou. That's a pretty high

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Speaker 8: hurdle to prove that you did not have the intent

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Speaker 8: to commit a crime. You know, volunteer in tosxication is

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Speaker 8: never a total defense to criminal charges, but volunteer intoxication

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Speaker 8: can be used and can be argued under New York law.

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Speaker 8: I've read the law on it this morning. It can

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Speaker 8: be used to negate the element of intent for some crime.

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Speaker 2: Can I just break that down because that was quite

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Speaker 2: a mouthful. You sound like a law school professor in

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Speaker 2: a first year of criminal law. Bottom line, it's never

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Speaker 2: a defense. It's not a defense like this was an

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Speaker 2: accident or self defense, which are both total defenses under

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Speaker 2: the law. If you can prove a case of self

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Speaker 2: defense or it was an accident, you're out, you walk free,

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Speaker 2: you're acquitted, bam. But if you have diminished capacity, it

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Speaker 2: can reduce a case from murder one to let's just say,

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Speaker 2: voluntary manslaughter. Because James shell Nutt is pointing out, it

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Speaker 2: can be argued that you had not complete control of

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Speaker 2: your faculties. But from what we know that night, she

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Speaker 2: knew exactly what she was doing because she tried to

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Speaker 2: cover her tracks. She hid out afterwards and even lied.

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Speaker 2: But I want to put the focus back on Barbara

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Speaker 2: Mayor Gustin, who suffered before she finally passed away with

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Speaker 2: her grandson Aj beside her when she died.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen to Ida Seagull at NBC four.

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Speaker 9: A single bouquet of flowers sits on twenty eighth Street

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Speaker 9: tonight where Barbara Gustern was shoved to the ground last week. Today,

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Speaker 9: family announced that the beloved singer and renowned voice coach

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Speaker 9: did not survive.

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Speaker 10: Hearing about it made me feel like I got hit

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Speaker 10: on in the head with the hammer.

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Speaker 9: On Barbara's Facebook page, her grandson posted a photo of

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Speaker 9: him holding her hand in the hospital, writing today at

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Speaker 9: eleven fifteen am, We've lost one of the brightest little

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Speaker 9: flames to ever grace this world.

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Speaker 3: The tributes came pouring in.

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Speaker 11: She was so wonderful, She was encouraging, she was firm,

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Speaker 11: She was the perfect teacher.

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Speaker 10: She was a sharp, clever you know, season first, and

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Speaker 10: you know, it's like she was amazing.

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Speaker 9: Stephen Shanahan owns restaurant in Theater Pangaea, where Barbara had

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Speaker 9: recently performed and where she had hoped to premiere a

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Speaker 9: new cabaret show.

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Speaker 10: They sang and they tell stories. It's very heart wine

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Speaker 10: and they've done several different shows here.

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Speaker 2: That's who was killed, that's who was shoved to the sidewalk.

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Speaker 2: And AJ, isn't it true your grandmother Barbara did not

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Speaker 2: know Lauren Pousienza at all.

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Speaker 3: They were complete strangers.

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Speaker 5: They're complete strangers. Yeah. I think it's another telling thing

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Speaker 5: that she targeted my grandmother of all people. You know,

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Speaker 5: she didn't go after some two hundred pound guys. She

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Speaker 5: went after my Bob, Bob, who god was older than

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Speaker 5: she weighed, you.

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Speaker 7: Know, so.

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Speaker 5: It's incomprehensible.

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Speaker 2: You know, you just really struck a nerve with me. AJ.

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Speaker 2: My mother Elizabeth, who lives with us, she's going to

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Speaker 2: be nine to God willing in December, and that's about

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Speaker 2: what she weighs, no matter how much I try to

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Speaker 2: feed her. And the thought of someone pushing my mother

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Speaker 2: to the sidewalk where your grandma hit her head and

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Speaker 2: then died is unimaginable to me. The cruelty involved in that.

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Speaker 2: I want to understand what happened. Guys, take a listen

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Speaker 2: our cut eleven our friends at NBC four.

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Speaker 11: This attack happened on March tenth on twenty eighth Street,

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Speaker 11: and Chelsea on Gustrin's Block. Detectives gave a surveillance from

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Speaker 11: that night. They say that she stayed in the area

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Speaker 11: for about a half an hour and left only after

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Speaker 11: she saw an ambulance arrive. We now know that investigators

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Speaker 11: tracked her movements through the subway when she met up

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Speaker 11: with her fiance, all the way until they got to

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Speaker 11: their apartment in Astoria.

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Speaker 5: I'd like to stress and is it until proven guilty?

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Speaker 5: You know, if she did do this, would like answers.

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Speaker 3: But this woman deserves her day in court.

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Speaker 11: Why if police know they aren't sharing that tonight they

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Speaker 11: are telling us that the suspect cursed of the victim,

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Speaker 11: and before she died, the victim told police the push

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Speaker 11: was as hard as she's ever been hit in her life.

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Speaker 12: I feel very vulnerable. Look, I'm older and I have

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Speaker 12: a keene that just squeams start up with me because

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Speaker 12: I can't defend myself. I will to the death, but it,

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Speaker 12: you know, it makes you feel like you have.

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Speaker 3: A target on your back.

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Speaker 2: And to show guilty conscious which can come into evidence

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Speaker 2: your actions before, during, and after a crime. That evidence

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Speaker 2: is overwhelming. Hiding out, leaving the same lying and deleting

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Speaker 2: all of her social media, stashing her cell phone.

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Speaker 3: Well, as a matter of fact, take on an our.

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Speaker 11: Cut ten our friend Erica Byfield the police detailing tonight

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Speaker 11: how they say that she tried to evade capture for weeks.

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Speaker 11: They tell us that she quit her job, deleted all

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Speaker 11: of our social media, got rid of her wedding website.

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Speaker 3: She was supposed to to get married in June.

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Speaker 11: They also say that she stashed her cell phone at

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Speaker 11: her aunt's house and then hid out at her parents'

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Speaker 11: house a Long Island. Midday Tuesday, we finally saw twenty

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Speaker 11: six year old Lauren Pasienza, her hair draped over her face,

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Speaker 11: refusing to talk, just after police charged her with manslaughter,

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Speaker 11: saying that she shoved and killed eighty seven year old

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Speaker 11: Barbara Augusterne. I think she was a crappy person. I mean,

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Speaker 11: who goes around shoving an old woman. Gusterne was a

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Speaker 11: beloved Broadway voice coach. She gave lessons to the greats.

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Speaker 11: Her grandson is still trying to process losing her.

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Speaker 3: And the arrest.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there is a sense of closure.

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Speaker 2: So if somebody is so drunk and high and on

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Speaker 2: drugs that they had no idea what they were doing,

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Speaker 2: Why did they hide out? Why did she delete all

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Speaker 2: of her social media, and not only that, even thinking

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Speaker 2: to use her fiance's transit card so movements could not

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Speaker 2: be traced by police, including ditching her cell phone. Take

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Speaker 2: us to our cut fourteen from our friends at Inside Edition.

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Speaker 13: Authority say, Pasienza and her fiance, who works for Microsoft,

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Speaker 13: got into the subway at Penn Station. They transferred at

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Speaker 13: Times Square and then took the train to their apartment

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Speaker 13: in Queen's leaving a digital trail with the fiance's Metro card.

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Speaker 13: Pasienza allegedly spent the next few hours taking down all

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Speaker 13: her social media and photos, including the website for her

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Speaker 13: June wedding. Police say the day after Gustern died, Pasienza

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Speaker 13: went into hiding at her parents Long Island home. She

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Speaker 13: stayed there for two weeks. Meanwhile, she must have known

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Speaker 13: that police were on her tail. They released video of

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Speaker 13: her at the crime scene and plastered wanted posters across

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Speaker 13: the city. On Monday, two people who knew her well

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Speaker 13: called in the tip. Detectives went to her parents' home.

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Speaker 13: Her father reportedly told them she wasn't there, but wouldn't

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Speaker 13: let them search the house. The next day, she knew

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Speaker 13: it was over, and she turned herself in.

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Speaker 2: Now claiming she's too drunk, high and on drugs to

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Speaker 2: know what she was doing, but she sure left a

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Speaker 2: trail a mile wide and tried to cover her tracks.

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Speaker 2: To Tony to Stephano, Tony, thank you for being with us,

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Speaker 2: joining us on news Day, Tony, what do we know

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Speaker 2: about what really happened the night that Barbara was pushed

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Speaker 2: ultimately to her death.

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Speaker 6: Well from the police reports, from the criminal complaint and

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Speaker 6: indictment in the case, we know that they had Lauren

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Speaker 6: and her boyfriend were having drinks in a park. She

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Speaker 6: was drinking a lot. From what I understand, they were

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Speaker 6: told to leave the park by a park worker because

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Speaker 6: it was obviously late.

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Speaker 2: She got angry, hold on Tony to Stephano, got angry

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Speaker 2: about what what she got cut off from Booze. But okay,

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Speaker 2: right right there, right there, Tony DeStefano is joining us

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Speaker 2: from Newsday newspaper. But Tony, as much as I respect you,

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Speaker 2: I love everything you write. I got to go to

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Speaker 2: a shrink right now because I don't get it. It's

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Speaker 2: like you're at a bar and they blink the light say,

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Speaker 2: and you get mad and throw a chair because you

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Speaker 2: have to stop drinking and leave.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greese.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold's psychiatrist is joining us. You can find

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Speaker 2: her at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, help me,

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Speaker 2: because I don't understand the getting angry when you have

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Speaker 2: to stop drinking and go home and go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: Why would that make you angry, Nancy.

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Speaker 14: I think that that shows us the inside workings of

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Speaker 14: this girl's mind. No one ever tells her what to do,

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Speaker 14: and if they do, she never has a consequence. And

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Speaker 14: if they tell her what to do, she acts badly

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Speaker 14: like this. That's why she got mad. Because you know what, Nancy,

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Speaker 14: she hasn't lived under the regular rules of other people.

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Speaker 14: And that's the part of all of this that we

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Speaker 14: need to look at. They keep saying that she's a

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Speaker 14: girl of privilege and all of this, Nancy, she hasn't

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Speaker 14: lived like other people have lived.

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Speaker 2: Hold On, I'm looking at a picture of her right

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Speaker 2: now on a family vacation as a teen. She's got

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Speaker 2: on like a leopard skin micro bikini beside a pool

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Speaker 2: with palm trees in the background, and the caption says

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Speaker 2: appears to have lived a life of privilege and later

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Speaker 2: glamour in New York's these high society.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean?

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Speaker 14: What that means is she's been doted upon and she's

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Speaker 14: had everything given to her at times in her life

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Speaker 14: that she shouldn't have had them.

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Speaker 2: Whoa wait a minute, is this her standing in front

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Speaker 2: of a Porsche? Look at those pictures I sent you, Jackie.

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Speaker 2: Is that her in front of a Porsche? Do Stephano?

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Speaker 2: Does she drive a Porsche?

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Speaker 6: I have no idea what you drove.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking right out of picture and she's got car

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Speaker 2: key it looks like car keys in her hands, and

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Speaker 2: she's pointing toward a Porsche.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think all you really need to look at, right,

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Speaker 5: is she posted a five hundred thousand dollars bail, which

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Speaker 5: is ten times more than the average American family makes

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Speaker 5: in a year, to avoid deal for a month. I'd

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Speaker 5: be curious to see how much her family has donated

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Speaker 5: to the soup kitchen that my grandmother went to that

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Speaker 5: she was murdered across the street front.

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Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing the voice of Barbara's grandson, who was

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Speaker 2: with her to the end, who was holding her hand

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Speaker 2: when she went to heaven because of this woman drunk

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Speaker 2: high on drugs with a silver spoon still clenched between

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Speaker 2: her teeth for no reason, angry because she was cut

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Speaker 2: off drinking in the park and takes it out on

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Speaker 2: an eighty.

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Speaker 3: Seven year old woman. And you heard.

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Speaker 2: Ajsay that's about as much as she weighed. She didn't

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Speaker 2: go shove a three hundred pound musclebound guy that just

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Speaker 2: left the gym.

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Speaker 3: She picked on an eighty seven year old.

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Speaker 2: Literally, little old lady, a little old lady like my mother.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh hgbl No, this woman does not need a

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Speaker 2: sweetheart plea deal. Hey doctor Angie, what were you saying

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Speaker 2: before somebody very rudely cut you off? Oh it was me, Sorry,

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Speaker 2: go ahead, what were you saying me?

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Speaker 14: See this people should listen to this story and see

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Speaker 14: and think about what privilege and saving your kids from

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Speaker 14: things and not showing your kids consequences. This is what

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Speaker 14: it leads to. This is the kind of behavior it

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Speaker 14: leads to. And I want to point out something else.

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Speaker 14: Everyone is stating that she was drunk and high. How

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Speaker 14: do we know that, Nancy, she might drink like this

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Speaker 14: on a regular basis. She might not have been touched

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Speaker 14: face by this alcohol. She wasn't drunk like I would

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Speaker 14: be drunk if I had two glasses of wine. Okay,

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Speaker 14: she may do this every day, so let's not say

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Speaker 14: she was drunk because we don't know that. Because as

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Speaker 14: you said, as you pointed out, she knew exactly what

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Speaker 14: to do after this happened. Okay, she knew exactly what

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Speaker 14: to do.

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Speaker 2: According to reports, she was told the part was closing

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Speaker 2: and she had to quit drinking and leave. She became enraged,

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Speaker 2: and she charged Barbara Gustern on the street, shoving the

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Speaker 2: eighty seven year old lady to the ground and calling

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Speaker 2: your grandmother a bitch. She called your grandmother a bitch?

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Speaker 2: Why why did she do that? And then stood there

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Speaker 2: and watched as an ambulance crew took your grandma away

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Speaker 2: with blood seeping from her head. And now then spending

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Speaker 2: the next two weeks hiding and covering her trail, and

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Speaker 2: now she wants leniency. Joseph jack Alone joining me, former

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Speaker 2: NYPD sergeant, author of the Cold Case Handbook and The

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Speaker 2: Criminal Investigative Function, The Guide for a New Investigator's fourth edition.

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Speaker 2: That means it's been published three times before. Joseph thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. This is your backyard. What

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Speaker 2: do you have to say about prosecuteators allegedly offering her

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Speaker 2: a sweetheart deal?

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Speaker 15: Well, it's quite interesting because I look at it from

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Speaker 15: the law enforcement perspective that you could have probably added.

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Speaker 6: On some charges.

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Speaker 15: I mean, when you choose an eighty seven year old,

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Speaker 15: there are statutes in New York City that you could

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Speaker 15: even make a claim that they could have been even

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Speaker 15: a hate crime.

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Speaker 6: So you know, she called them her name.

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Speaker 15: That's something that you have to, you know, to look

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Speaker 15: further into. I mean, listen, prosecutors and defense attorneys do

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Speaker 15: what they do, right, So prosecutors most of the cases

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Speaker 15: that they leave them out, they rarely go to trial.

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Speaker 15: And I'm sure I know you have a lawyer on

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Speaker 15: here in the panel today, and I'm sure you would

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Speaker 15: agree with me on that, because you can't put every

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Speaker 15: case in front of a jury.

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Speaker 6: But you know, you have to look at the.

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Speaker 15: And focus on what you do have. And the investigators

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Speaker 15: did a great job here, you know, putting these things

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Speaker 15: together with video surveillance, cell phone records, they might even

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Speaker 15: have been Internet records, right. We know that the phone

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Speaker 15: was found at the ant house, will probably fainted. They

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Speaker 15: followed her throughout the entire system on the street through

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Speaker 15: videos of veillance. So it goes to show you that

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Speaker 15: painstaking detail to what the detectives had to go through

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Speaker 15: was pretty amazing when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: They put together a heck of a case. And my

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Speaker 2: question is why plead it out. Take this thing to trial,

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Speaker 2: get the max on this woman who shoves an eighty

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Speaker 2: seven year old grandmother to the ground and call her

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Speaker 2: a bitch and stand by and watch you be taken

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Speaker 2: away in an ambulance instead of focusing on her, focusing

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Speaker 2: on hiding for the next two weeks until one of

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Speaker 2: her friends turn her in after spotting her on TV,

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Speaker 2: seeing that subway, seeing the video of her. But I

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Speaker 2: want you to hear more about what happened the night

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Speaker 2: of the incident. Take a listen hour cut thirteen our

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Speaker 2: friends at Inside Edition.

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Speaker 16: We're learning more about the young woman accused of an

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Speaker 16: unspeakable crime, shoving an elderly lady to her death for

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Speaker 16: no reason, police say. Six minutes after the unprovoked attack,

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Speaker 16: the suspect, twenty six year old Lauren Pazienza, walked back

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Speaker 16: to the scene and watched an ambulance take away the

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Speaker 16: elderly woman, eighty seven year old Barbara Gustern, a renowned

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Speaker 16: singing coach.

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Speaker 13: The suspect's high powered lawyer, Arthur Idallas, spoke to reporters

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Speaker 13: after her arraignment and previewed what may be her defense.

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Speaker 2: Whether it was a push, or whether it was a shove,

438
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: or whether it was a kick, or whether someone tripped.

439
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: The evidence is not very solid on.

440
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 15: That at all.

441
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: Police say.

442
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 13: The victim remained conscious long enough to tell them her assailant,

443
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 13: who she had never met before, crossed the street, then

444
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 13: called her the B word and pushed her as hard

445
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 13: as she had ever been hit in her life.

446
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: Can you imagine calling your mother or your grandmother a bitch?

447
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: Can you even imagine that? I mean aj aj mayor Gustern.

448
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: This is Barbara Gustern's grandson, who stayed with her till

449
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: the end. I just lost every chance of me believing

450
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: anything the defense said is over by saying the word

451
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: maybe she tripped bs. Your grandmother did not trip. Nobody tripped.

452
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 3: What were her words to you about how hard she

453
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 3: was shoved?

454
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 5: Aj I actually wasn't present when I heard those words.

455
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 5: She got back to her building after the attack, and

456
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 5: the friends she was rehearsing with met her in the

457
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 5: lobby and they were the one who heard her say

458
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 5: that as she was called the B word and shoved

459
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 5: as hard as she ever was in her life. And

460
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 5: then she shortly lost consciousness when she got in the ambulance,

461
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 5: and then I flew out the very next morning, and

462
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 5: I didn't see her until I got in the hospital.

463
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 5: The last time I talked to her was the Monday

464
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 5: of that that week. And yeah, I've seen it, mister

465
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 5: Idalla say other things like complying my grandmother had some

466
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 5: kind of illness or disability, which is just ridiculous. At

467
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 5: her age, she was still teaching voice all day, going

468
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 5: out to shows. I mean, she was comfortable enough to

469
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 5: go out at night alone and walk to the show

470
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 5: she was on her way to when she was when

471
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 5: she was killed. That's how much she loved the city,

472
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 5: and that's how much she trusted the city, and that's

473
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 5: how capable she was.

474
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 6: Well.

475
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: She was on her way to see a show.

476
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: What was she saying?

477
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 5: One of her students shows. She was on her way

478
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 5: to see one of her students, and she was going

479
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 5: to talk with another student about a book she was

480
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 5: she was creating at that show.

481
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: Well, your grandmother was more cogent than most young people

482
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: and young adult that I know. Let's go to doctor

483
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner in New York. Doctor Boden,

484
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: what happened to Barbara? She was fine, well, not fine,

485
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: but she was had her wits about her, was speaking,

486
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: described to her student what happened, that she was shoved her,

487
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: that she's ever been shoved in her life, and all

488
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: of a sudden she seemingly whacked out and then died.

489
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a good question. Firstly, Nancy, I don't think

490
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 7: she was shoved. She was struck very hard in the back.

491
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 7: And I think there's a difference between somebody shoving somebody

492
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 7: in a subway and just being whacked very hard in

493
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 7: the back, which is as Aja said, is what she

494
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 7: said happened to her. And then when she fell down

495
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 7: and struck her head. Remember Liam Neeson's.

496
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: Wife, Natasha Richardson.

497
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 7: Right and Natasha Richison, when she skied down and fell

498
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 7: down and they called it an ambulance and she said

499
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 7: she felt fine. There there's one specific type of head injury,

500
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 7: a tear of a little artery middle men ingeal artery

501
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 7: that when a fall of cars it can get ruptured,

502
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 7: but the patient doesn't feel anything for as the bleeding

503
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 7: comes from it, and many hours later or a day later,

504
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 7: the bleeding accumulates to such an extent that it compresses

505
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 7: the brain and causes the.

506
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: Person hey, hight whit whit why?

507
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: Doctor Biden, we're not except for doctor Angel Arnold, who's

508
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: not only an MB but she's a psychiatrist as well.

509
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: You're in like warp speed for all of us. What

510
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: First of all, what artery are you talking about?

511
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 7: The metal middle meningeal artery. It's a little, a very

512
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 7: small artery that goes.

513
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: To the where is it on your head? Is it

514
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 3: above your ear? Near your temple?

515
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 7: You got it? That's just from where it is. It

516
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 7: comes to a little a little opening in the skull

517
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 7: just behind the ear.

518
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: You know how I know that?

519
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 3: Doctor?

520
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't think I've told you this. My son

521
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: does track and field, and he was practicing discus and

522
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: some other kid came up behind him, like eighty feet

523
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: away and also started practicing discus. And my son, John David,

524
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: heard somebody say watch out, and he turned his head barely,

525
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: and a discus hit him in the head on the

526
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: deceilse and all I could think about was bleeding on

527
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: the brain. The coach said, hey, are you taking him home?

528
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: I like, no, I'm taking him to the emergency room.

529
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: And if he had not turned his head. Dr Biden,

530
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: the hit was about three fourths of an inch above

531
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 2: the medeal meningial artery that you are describing, and it

532
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: would have required immediate neurovascular surgery to save his life.

533
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: So I just went through all this us. Do you

534
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: think that's what happened to Barbara.

535
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 7: Yes, And I think you saved your son's life when

536
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 7: you brought him right to the emergency room. Because it

537
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 7: doesn't heal by itself. It keeps bleeding and slowly and

538
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 7: that's why the person is okay for a while. And

539
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 7: while she described what happened, and then it just causes

540
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 7: the person to gradually go to sleep and lose consciousness.

541
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 7: There's no pain with it, she doesn't have any pain,

542
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 7: but it's just there was the one little area that's

543
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 7: when she fell down. That that's the she fell on

544
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 7: that here area.

545
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: You know, Time stories with Nancy Grace.

546
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: Tourney, DeStefano joining us from Newsday newspaper, who's been on

547
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: this from the very beginning, and AJ, everybody on the

548
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: panel please jump in, as you obviously know, this is

549
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: not high ta at Windsor Castle with King Charles and

550
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: Queen Camilla. Jump in when you have a thought, AJ,

551
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: especially you Tony. The defense is also arguing that the

552
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: so called Cesspool Princess Lauren Pazienza has been overcharged. I

553
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: don't understand why she's not charged with a hate crime

554
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: with enhanced penalties, because when you commit a violent crime

555
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: on an elder, typically in most jurisdictions, you get enhanced

556
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: or greater sentences behind bars, and they're looking at a

557
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: sweetheart deal.

558
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: What's going on up there?

559
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 6: Well, I'm wondering. You know, ourdella is trying to basically

560
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 6: diminish the intent to cause injury, the element of first

561
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 6: degree manslaughter. That's why they're arguing about the intoxication, the

562
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 6: drug use, etc.

563
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: Okay, you're actually making my head hurt, Tony.

564
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 6: Why is it making your head hurt?

565
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: The law presumes and jump in if I'm wrong, anybody

566
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: on the panel. The law presumes you intend the natural

567
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: consequence of your act. For instance, if I take a

568
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: gun and I pointed to Jackie and pull the trigger

569
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: and kill her. I can't then say, oh, I just

570
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: meant to scare her.

571
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: Or you can't take a.

572
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 2: Piece of fine china and hold it above a cement

573
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: floor and then throw it down and it breaks and

574
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: you say, oh, I didn't mean to break it. The

575
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,479
Speaker 2: law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.

576
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: You shove literally a little old lady to the pavement

577
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: and she hits her head, what do you think is

578
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 2: going to happen?

579
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 6: There is the element of intent, but there also is

580
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 6: the element of reclessness and the law they're different. If

581
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 6: you intend, If she intended to shove Barbara Gustern at

582
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 6: the cause of injury, that's a conscious decision. If she

583
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 6: did so recklessly, that's another element.

584
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

585
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,479
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, Tony, there's something called the abandoned and malignant heart,

586
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: which means you are so reckless. For instance, if I

587
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: got my minivan and Florida to ninety mph and then

588
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: drove through a street market and I just happened to

589
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: plow down four or five people and they died, that's

590
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: still murder.

591
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: With an abandoned and malignant heart.

592
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: Where are you Sheelle Nutt, you're the lawyer on the

593
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: panel today, jump in, man, help me with Tony de Stefano.

594
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: He obviously knows the law better than you, and I said.

595
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 8: I need you.

596
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 7: Absolute.

597
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 8: This is the kicker to me. When she shoves this

598
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 8: lady and then calls her a bitch right after that,

599
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 8: she's intending. That is clear evidence she is intended to

600
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 8: seriously injured this lady. That shows her intent right there

601
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 8: on her worst day, on the prosecution's worst day.

602
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 6: She's guilty of.

603
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 8: Man one under New York penal code. She could possibly

604
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 8: be charged with a murder charge. To say that she

605
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 8: is overcharged is sick.

606
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take a man one. That'd be over my

607
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 2: dead body clutching the criminal code.

608
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: No way, no way.

609
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: You know what You're right, okay, Tony to Stephan though,

610
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: I had to bring in backup to argue with you

611
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: about the law. So you know that's a badge of honor.

612
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: By the way, Tony, so what do you think is

613
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: behind this sweetheart deal? If it's even true? Just because

614
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 2: Idolla says it does not mean it's really happening true.

615
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 6: I think what the argument to hear ultimately is going

616
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 6: to be about is the penalty of the prosecution in

617
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 6: idella or arguing over negotiations here, and either they're going

618
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 6: to stick with Man one and get a negotiated penalty

619
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 6: of some years in prison, but they might conceivably get

620
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 6: down to Man two, which will be a lowiest threshold.

621
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: Oh dear Lord in heaven, No, what was she get

622
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: eight years and be out in four Well, I don't.

623
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 6: Think she's going to have a bare minimum. I think

624
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 6: she's probably going to have eight years if it's in

625
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 6: the Man two zone. If it's any higher than that,

626
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 6: I think she's going to suffer perhaps more substantial time.

627
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 6: But I Dalo also said outside the courtroom the other

628
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 6: day that look, if we don't get the kind of

629
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 6: disposition we want in terms of the plea, you know,

630
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 6: indicating we're going to go to trial.

631
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: Right right right, That's what every defense attorney says. We're

632
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 2: going to trial because take a listen to our cut

633
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 2: sixteen who is this woman?

634
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 3: Take a listen to our forensic crime online.

635
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 4: After graduating high school twenty thirteen, Lauren Ponzienza attended the

636
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 4: Fashion Institute of Technology in Manhattan and worked as an

637
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 4: events coordinator for a high end French furniture company. She

638
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 4: was seen gallivanting around town attending swanky parties in our

639
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 4: gallery openings before she resigned her position last December, but

640
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: neighbors at the upscale Astoria condo where she lives with

641
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 4: her fiancee said she wasn't all smiles at home. Law

642
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 4: enforcement sources say that Pasienza was a known nuisance in

643
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: the Shore Towers and had previously called cops on her neighbors.

644
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 4: A woman who lives in the building says there was

645
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 4: always an issue with her and someone in the building.

646
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: It's always like something with that lady. Another man who

647
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 4: also lives in the building described her as definitely not

648
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 4: the best tenant.

649
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: So, Doctor Antie Arnold, we've heard about anger management, that

650
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: she had been a bully, she was in grade school.

651
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: What does this all mean, Doctor Angie.

652
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 14: Nsy, This goes way beyond anger management. Let's just point

653
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 14: out I'm just going to say this, Okay, people develop

654
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 14: very bad personality disorders starting it infancy. As a matter

655
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 14: of fact, we know that it starts in infancy. When

656
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 14: you're not treated correctly in infancy. That's how serial killers develop. Okay,

657
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 14: I think that she's going to be a case study

658
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 14: for what happens to children.

659
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: You know what, I really appreciate you going all the

660
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: way back to her infancy. But let me play a

661
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: clip of her, the so called Sayspool princess mocking the

662
00:39:43,680 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: death in her adulthood. Listen, is she naming? She may stop, please,

663
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear any more of it. That's

664
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 2: why we're talking about as an adult mocking the deaf.

665
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: Aj Mayor Gustern, what is your message to the prosecution

666
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 2: and the defense today.

667
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 5: I want to thank the prosecution. I understand the pressure

668
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 5: that y'all must be experiencing with this case, and I

669
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 5: think y'all have done a great job. As for the defense,

670
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 5: Lorn in particular, recognize how lucky you are. Right, Recognize

671
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 5: that you could have got murder, You could have got

672
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 5: hate crime. Your parents could have gotten in trouble for

673
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 5: harboring you. I right, recognize these things.

674
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: Wow, there's so much better of a person than they

675
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: go ahead.

676
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 5: And you know, from the very beginning she had she

677
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 5: had a very good chance of having me potentially be

678
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 5: in her corner. Right if she would have not run,

679
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 5: if she would have stayed and been like this was

680
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 5: me right, Like I did this like the day she

681
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 5: was watching them take her away, right, I might. I

682
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 5: might have been supportive of her. Instead, she's she's pushed

683
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 5: the trial back as much as she can. She's she's

684
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 5: done everything in the playbook to draw this out and

685
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 5: get the minimum time possible. I'm not convinced that she

686
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 5: recognizes truly what she's even done.

687
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye Sam.