1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 2: I'm having a horrible week. Let me tell you about it. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: I heard it gets worse, It gets worse. I was 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: getting on the subway and I was looking at my 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: phone as one does, and I didn't notice in time 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: that there was a just huge pool of oatmeal on 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: the floor of the subway car. When I'm ninety percent 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: confident it was oatmeal, I'll tell you why. There was 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: a lid next to it, so I don't know. Maybe 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: someone vomited and then threw a lid down, but I'm 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: hoping that it was oatmeal. Anyway, it splotted up the 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 2: back of my jeans. That was yesterday. I was walking 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 2: with my lunch in my hand and just stepped in 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: dog feces. Just I'm so upset. I hate this city. 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: It's horrible here. You have to always be on high alert, 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: and I'm tired of it. Man, I'm just I'm worn down. 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, since I moved to the suburbs, I have not 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: necessarily seen a decrease in my incidence of stepping on 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: gross things. 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel like you're part of the dog community. 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, bringing on myself. 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: I'm kind of asking for it, but I'm not. I'm 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: specifically not in the dog community. I have a cat, 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 2: and I moved to New Jersey, so I try to 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: avoid disgusting things, and I just I can't. It all 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: found me this week and bad luck comes in three. 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: So something hideous is going to happen. 28 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: You're going to step on something real bad. 29 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: Something is going to step on me. I don't know. 30 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly 31 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm 32 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: Matt Levine and I write the Money Stuff column for 33 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion. 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 36 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: You know who else is having a bad week? 37 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: The list goes on. 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: I was gonna say Donald Trump, but there's no real 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: reason to think that Donald Trump's tariffs have a bad 40 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: day Wednesday in the US Supreme Court because they're illegal, 41 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: and every court that has considered them found them illegal. 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court has generally been more willing to 43 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: let Donald Trump do illegal things than other courts are, because, 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: like you know, the other courts, there's like a law, 45 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: the law, and the Supreme Court is like, yeah, we 46 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: get to make up the law. So they've been a 47 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: little more generous. But it seems like from the oral 48 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: argument on Wednesday, it seems like they might have hit 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: their limit on Donald Trump's universal tariffs. 50 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. It seems like skepticism was the word 51 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: of the day, I think, almost every meeting. 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: So you can't really tell what they think from the 53 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: oral argument, so you have to write that they were skeptical. 54 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, asked skeptical questions, things along those lines. Yeah, 55 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: we're talking about the nineteen seventy seven International Emergency Economic 56 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: Powers Act AIPA, if you will. So Donald Trump says 57 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: that it's in the interest of national security that he's 58 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: basically able to levy blanket tariffs around the globe. And 59 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: that's what's in question right now, defining the limits of 60 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 2: this nineteen seventies law. 61 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, normal people and lawyers and economists believe that tariffs 62 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: are taxes because they are, and the US Constitution says 63 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: that only Congress can impose taxes. And in APA, Congress 64 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: gave the president the power to regulate importation in an emergency, 65 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: but it doesn't say you can tax them. And it 66 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: seems to me and many other people, and probably five 67 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: or so justices of the Supreme Court, that that does 68 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: not give Donald Trump the power to unilatterally impose taxes 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: on the imports of every country in the world. Donald 70 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: Trump disagrees, and in the Supreme Court argument, his lawyer 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: Solicitor General, argued that these are not taxes. They're not 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: designed to raise rev and the goal of the tariffs 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: is to make everyone. Essentially, actually said the fact they 74 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: raise revenue is only incidental. The tariffs would be most 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: effective if no person ever paid them, because there were 76 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: no imports. 77 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: I think amazing. 78 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but no one believes that, certainly not Donald Trump, 79 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: who has talked about how much revenue they're raising, and 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: certainly not the strim Court. 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: So you know, yeah, I feel like it's been pretty 82 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: nakedly a goal of the tariffs is to raise tariff 83 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: revenue and trying to shrink the budget. 84 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: Justice it sure, because they're at tax Yeah, so it's 85 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: very hard to argue that, and they tried, and it 86 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it went that well. 87 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, again, we don't know what they were thinking. We 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 2: might get a decision by the end of the year, 89 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: which is exciting. But I have a quote here from 90 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: Chief Justice John Roberts saying that the tariffs were quote 91 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: an imposition of taxes on Americans, and that has always 92 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: been the core power of Congress. That's a direct quote. 93 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: And then you also it's literally. 94 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: Read a front of the Constitution, like the Constitution is 95 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: like an actual favorite you can read right, you actually 96 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: see that. It says Congress has a parat advice. 97 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: I've carused it now and again a lot of amendments. Anyway, 98 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 2: this is really enough front, right up front. And then 99 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 2: you had Trump appointed justices as well, Neil Gorsuch and 100 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: Amy Cony Barrett apparently also asking skeptical questions as well. 101 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 2: But again it's very hard to know. 102 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: It's hard to know. Neil Gorsuch, I have a certain 103 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: personal fondness for no goar, such pause, go on. I 104 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: think you talked about this on the podcast, But my 105 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: wife argued a case in the Supreme Court that was 106 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: a non delegation doctrine in case. The non delegation doctrine 107 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: has been around for a long time. Basically, it says 108 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: that Congress can't just hand over its powers to the 109 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: executive branch without giving it an intelligible principle how to 110 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: regulate that doctrine has been around for a while, but 111 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: never really worked for the last hundred years. Like, the 112 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court has never found a violation of the non 113 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: delegation doctrine. It's never said Congress deligated too much power here, 114 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: But Neil Gorsuch believes in it and has like tried 115 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: to find violations of it and has like dissented from 116 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: decisions including on and Following My Wife and saying that, 117 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: like the non delegation doction should have some real power. 118 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: And it seems here that if Congress intended to delegate 119 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: the power to unilaterally tax all imports forever to the president, 120 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: that would be quite a striking delegation that would perhaps 121 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: exceed the ability of Congress to delegate, so like there's 122 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: natural reason to think that he would oppose these tariffs. Similarly, 123 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: John Roberts invented the thing called the major questions doctrine, 124 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: which has become a big part of Supreme Court jurist prudence, 125 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: even though he kind of made it up a few 126 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: years ago. And in the major questions doctrine, basically it's like, 127 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: if Congress is going to give the executive like some 128 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: huge new power. It has to do so clearly. And 129 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: here AIPA gives the president the power to regulate imports, 130 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: which is not taxing them. So it doesn't seem like 131 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: it does it clearly. 132 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 133 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: So like if you look at you know, if you count, 134 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: like three liberal justices are going to sign out. One 135 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: John Roberts loves his major question doctrine, and one new 136 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: of course such loves his non delegation doctrine. You kind 137 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: of get to the doors being stricked down. 138 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting and exciting because the question has 139 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: also been raised, would reimbursement. 140 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, have to happen? 141 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: What on earth would that possibly look like? 142 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Right? If you just went to the Supreme Court, you know, 143 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: a year ago and asked them would this pay legal? 144 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: I think they'd all say no, Yeah, but it's already happened, 145 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: right for sure, it's already raised hundreds of billions of 146 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: dollars or whatever, and so unscrambling the egg is really hard, 147 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: and I don't know what will happen. I will say 148 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: that you could imagine the government being like it would 149 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: be impossible to pay refunds. And that's the reason not 150 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: to strike this down. And they haven't done that. They've 151 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: been like, yeah, I would pay refunds. Yeah, I do 152 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: think anythink that's a little interesting, is that if you 153 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: think about the incidents right, like on the one hand, 154 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: like I don't think consumers have paid a lot of 155 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: these times. 156 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like so far companies have you know, 157 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: a lot. 158 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: Of the costs. So pretty strong consensus is that tariffs 159 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: have not been passed on to consumers nearly as much 160 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: as economists expected. And I don't know exactly there isn't 161 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: for that. Some of it it's just like a you know, 162 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: good profit environment, and some of it is like everyone's 163 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: a little bit waiting and seeing and like if the 164 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: tariffs continued forever, they might pass them on. 165 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: But the yeah, what happens. 166 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, like if there are refunds, 167 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: I don't know who gets the refunds. I think a 168 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: lot of like the importers have sold refund claims to 169 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: like hedge funds. Yeah, this is a real Wall Street 170 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: trade where like some banks have been arranging trades where 171 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: hedge funds will buy refund claims it like forty cents 172 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: on the dollar. And if the stream court strikes them down, 173 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: then like they get their money, and if it doesn't 174 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: then they lose the forty cents on the dollar. So 175 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: it would be more interesting if the tariffs like had 176 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: been passed on to consumers and then they were like 177 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: ultimately a transfer of money from consumers to hedge funds. Yeah, 178 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: but instead I think there's just a transfer of money 179 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: from companies stage funds. 180 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: Well. Amy Coney Barrett did ask the lawyer for the 181 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: small businesses that sued basically how the process would work 182 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 2: should the terroriffs be overturned. His answer was that if 183 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: they are overturned, then businesses may seek the return of 184 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: the billions already paid to the US Treasury. So in 185 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: that scenario, like the businesses have sold them. 186 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some interesting questions about whether the government would 187 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: stone while a hedge fund that has bought Tireff claims, 188 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, but probably it'd be fine. Probably some 189 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: hedgehunds are going to do well out of this. 190 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: So the most interesting possibility for this podcast is that 191 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: these terrafts are overturned. 192 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: Well, yes, and then a hedge fund sues the government 193 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: for a refund that the government says now and it 194 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: goes to the Supreme courtly, that's a fun one. 195 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: It's a fun one. 196 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: That's a fun be interested in a tiff refund hedge 197 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: fund case. 198 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: I do want to put some numbers around the terriff 199 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: revenue so far, because I think it's interesting. Apparently it's 200 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: helped bring the national budget deficit down to one point 201 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: seven eight trillion dollars for the most recent fiscal years. 202 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: That's a drop of two per from twenty twenty four, 203 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: which is good news. But you think about the overall 204 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: trajectory of spends and tax cuts, it's probably not going 205 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: to really change things that much. 206 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: But even still, but else it's getting reversed. 207 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe we don't know that right. 208 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: And like again, like the government can't argue about this. 209 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: They can't be like, we need these tariffs to keep 210 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: the deficit down. Yeah, I mean they can. They can 211 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: say it, but they can't say it in the Supreme 212 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: Court because to the Supreme Court, they're saying, this isn't attack. 213 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: We're not raising revenue, so we can't talk about the revenue. 214 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, kind of reminds me of the situation with 215 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 2: Nvidia and AMD chips in terms of the idea was 216 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: floated that the government would take a cut of Chinese revenues, 217 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: like the revenue that they. 218 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: Need in China, like a reverse taff. 219 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's also like, how do you argue that's 220 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: for national security that also seems to be just nakedly revenue. 221 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: It's crazy. 222 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: It's like you can tell advanced technology to our enomy 223 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: as lone as we got to cut. 224 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah right, cony up, what do you want to talk 225 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 2: about next? 226 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: Met Sarah? 227 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: I love this story so much drama in the healthcare. 228 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: I'm an ice bace for this very hot, promising obesity startup, 229 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: met Sarah. 230 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good to have an obesity drug. 231 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 2: Yeahs I wish I had won. 232 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Metsarah is a like US biotech company that 233 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: has an obesity drug that seems to be promising. 234 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: Not on the market yet, no, but it did recently 235 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: complete a mid stage trial. 236 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,599 Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a promising but not yet commercialized the 237 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: obesity drug. And Pfizer, a big US from a company 238 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: that had a notable failure in trials of it's obesity drug. Yeah, 239 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like adrift without an obesity drug, 240 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: agreed to buy met Sarah in September and since then, 241 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: no Nordisk, which you know is a giant Danish pharmaceutical 242 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: company that notably makes ozepic yep and we go vi yes, 243 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: has come in with a higher bid for Metsarah, which 244 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: surest all has interesting drama. But secondly, because Novo has 245 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: the leading obesity drugs, there's a huge anti trust problem 246 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: with it buying met Sarah. Yeah, and met Sarah with 247 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: the board of directors is choosing between a higher offer 248 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: from Novo that might not go through or a lower 249 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: offer from Pfizer that has like very little anti trust risk. 250 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: And Nova got around that problem, or thinks it got 251 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: around that problem, or probably got around that problem by 252 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: basically paying the money upfront. So instead of like signing 253 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: a deal and going to get anti trust approval and 254 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: when you get anti trust approval paying the money for 255 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: the shares, Novah is just going to hand over the 256 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: money upfront. It's going to be dividended out to met 257 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: Sarah shareholders like as soon as they signed the deal, 258 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: and then Nova will get back like sort of this 259 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: like debtlike claim, so that if they get a distress approval, 260 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: the deal will close and nov will end up owning Metsarah. 261 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: And if it doesn't close, then Metsarah can sell itself 262 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: to someone else, and Nova gets the first like six 263 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: point five billion dollars of proceeds. It's a very weird structure. 264 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: It is super weird. I had to reread it a 265 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: number of times, and then listening to you describe it, 266 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: I feel like I need to go back and play 267 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: it again. 268 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Basically, they're just paying for the company, even if 269 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: they can't end up buying the company, which is wild. 270 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: It's a very bold move by Novo. You mentioned that 271 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: they have the leading of a BCD drug. I will 272 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: put an asterisk there that they have seeded market share 273 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: to Eli Lilly in the US. So they're trying to 274 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: regain grounds. 275 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so one possible is they're trying to regain ground 276 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: by getting Metsara's awesome new drugs. 277 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 278 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Pfizer has a different theory, which is that they don't 279 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: care about this drug. They're just trying to catch and 280 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: kill it. They're trying to prevent Pfiser from getting an 281 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: ibcit drug by doing this deal where where they will 282 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: lock up met Sarah in like trying to get regulatory 283 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: approvals for two years. And Pfizer says the deal with 284 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: Nova will never close, They'll never get an anti trust approval, 285 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: but like it'll take so long that the actual purpose 286 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: of this deal is to prove ad pviser from buying it, 287 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: so sort of like maintain Nova's position. So that's Pfizer's view. 288 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: They've sued in multiple courts. They kind of lost around 289 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: this week Deliery Chancery Court refused to stop Metsarah from 290 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: taking the Nova deal, but you know there's still lawsuits 291 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: kicking around. 292 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a very cynical take. I feel like 293 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: the fact that it's not Eli Lilly doing this maybe, Yeah. 294 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: It's a cynical take. I mean, it's very weird to 295 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: pay for the company up front, even if you might 296 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: not get it right. And like one possibility is that 297 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: Novo is like, we don't think there's how much anti 298 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: trust risk. We understand Metsarah is worried about it, so 299 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: we're going to bear that risk ourselves by paying everything 300 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: up front. But are other possibilities that everyone thinks there's 301 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: a lot of anti trust risk and they're like, we 302 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: don't even care if we don't get the company. 303 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say we heard from the CFO of 304 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: Novo talking about why they wanted this company, and they're 305 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: promising drug in particular, and the CFO said that they're 306 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: particularly interested in Metsarah's amelin targeting drug. Okay, if anyone 307 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: falling along at home is really well versed in this stuff. 308 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: Apparently amelin is another potential target in obesity treatment, and 309 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: just on Thursday, actually Eli Lilly said that it's amelin 310 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: targeting helped patients lose up to twenty point one percent 311 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: of their body weight over forty eight weeks. So I 312 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: don't know, like Pfizer has their take, but Novo seems 313 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,359 Speaker 2: to have their own. 314 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: Right, you can't fully believe the extremely cynical take of 315 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: like never spending billions of dollars just the stobviser from 316 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: getting out of PCD DUG that's adviser also has like 317 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: a sort of like patriotic argument. Yeah, like you know, 318 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: kind of playing to the Trump Justice Department. Should in 319 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: an American company end up buying this American obesity rather 320 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: than giving it to the Danish And. 321 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: The government's going to be like what if we got 322 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: a golden chair perhaps something along those lines, perhaps a 323 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: kind of revenue. 324 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, because like this is what's going to happen. 325 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: Yes, this is. 326 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: Totally what's going to happen. 327 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: Speaking of drama, this has nothing to do with obesity. 328 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: Well, the story about a guy who's been five hundred 329 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: thousand dollars on his personal. 330 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: Chef talk about a fat wallets. So stupid. 331 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about Like so, uh, Sam bankman Fred 332 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: had his appeal this week. Oh yeah, it didn't go well. Oh, 333 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: I mean we don't know the result that skeptical. 334 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: Questions, skeptical skepticism. 335 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: And Sam bankman freet has said that all of his 336 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: problems started when he handed over control of FTX to 337 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: people who are running it in bankruptcy, file for bankruptcy, 338 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 1: and like someone else takes over the company. 339 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: That was the starting point of well, that was. 340 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: In the starting pipe. He was like, I could have 341 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: recovered before that, but then after they took over the company, 342 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: like the new CEO has an incentive to throw the 343 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: old management under the bus, right and find as many 344 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: problems as possible. And I was thinking about that because like, 345 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about First Brands, which is 346 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: a auto parts conglomerate that went bankrupt and this week 347 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: sued its former CEO and soul shareholder Patrick James, for 348 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: various alleged badness basically like doing a lot of fraud 349 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: to borrow from various like factoring companies, and like taking 350 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: all of that money and giving it to himself and 351 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: spending it on seventeen exotic cars, lavish homes and Malibu 352 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: and the Hampton's six figure bills for a celebrity chef 353 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: other stuff like that. And I just think about it 354 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: because like it's the same kind of dynasm where like 355 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: you file for bankruptcy, like essentially a bankruptcy firm takes 356 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: over the company and they're like, you know, let's be 357 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: as negative as possible about the previous management, and so 358 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: do you know they seem to have found a lot 359 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, but you know you have to be 360 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: a little skeptical, right because like they were running the 361 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: company on behalf of the creditors, right, and like this 362 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: is a company that was one hundred percent owned by 363 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: Patrick James, and so they're like he used it as 364 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: his personal piggy bank. He absolutely did, Like of course 365 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: he did, because he owned the company, and so he 366 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: didn't like follow a lot of like formalities, and like 367 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: when he needed money, he just sent himself some money 368 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: from the company, and now they want all that money 369 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: back to pay to the creditors, right, and so they're like, oh, 370 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: he did lots of fraud. Like I guess I believe them, 371 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: But it's just like and it's an interesting dynamic, like 372 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: so incentives to say he did lots of fraud. 373 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: If I own one hundred percent of an autoparts supplier, 374 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: I can take the money out and buy cars. 375 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: Well, the question is who's going to object to that? 376 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: And if there are no other soulders in the ordinary course, 377 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: no one's going to object it. Now if the company 378 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: goes extremely bankrupt, the creditors are going to object it. 379 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: They're gonna be like giving back the money, and they're 380 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: going to look very carefully to see if you did 381 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: anything bad. And I do think that like they found 382 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: that he did bad stuff in terms of like I mean, 383 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: like the real allegation here is that most of their 384 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: borrowing was secured by invoices. So I could sell auto 385 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: parts to like a car dealership, and they get an 386 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: invoice and they'd borrow against the invoice from like a 387 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: factoring company. They would like send over lists of thousands 388 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: of invoices to borrow the money and they would just 389 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: change the numbers on the lists to get more money, 390 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and like that's fraud if that's true, right, Like that's 391 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: really bad. And so the creditors have like allegedly found 392 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: a lot of that. But then there's just like the 393 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: other question of like, if you have a company that 394 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: borrows money, can you take money out of the company? 395 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, it depends on what the credit 396 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: agreements say, and like they make a lot of noise 397 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: about how he didn't follow a lot of formalities, but 398 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: they don't say like it was forbidden by the credit agreements. 399 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. So I don't mean to defend him. 400 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: I feel I mean, I feel like someone listening cold 401 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: because I know you want to know. 402 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: I just think it's an interesting dynamic that the creditors 403 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: have every incentive to look for fraud, and that they 404 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: are like, he took money out of this company, which 405 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: leads like, fine, if you you know it's his own company, 406 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: but it's not his own company because he like borrowed 407 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: a lot of money. 408 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. 409 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: That said, I do want to emphasize that the stuff 410 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: they say about crossing out the numbers on the invoices 411 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: and writing much larger numbers is really bad fraud. 412 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, like much larger numbers, adding a digit maybe too. Yeah. 413 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's an example in the complaint of like 414 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: they patch together two million dollars worth of invoices, like 415 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: thousands of invoices that total two million dollars, and they 416 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: change them to make them eleven million dollars. Yeah, they 417 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: borrowed eleven million dollars. Like that's really bad. 418 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super bad. That's flagrant if you really think 419 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 2: about it. I do wonder if anyone in his family 420 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 2: was like, Patrick, you run an auto part supplier. How 421 00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 2: do you have so many houses? How do you have 422 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: so many car. 423 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: No, it's a big it's not like a yeah, but 424 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: even still think a multi billion dollar conglomerate of auto 425 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: parts supplayers. 426 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, But I don't know with the benefit 427 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: of hindsight, it seems a little sketchy. 428 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: But I know he's a billionaire. I gotten myself into 429 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: this anyway, I think completely innocent. 430 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: I do think it's interesting that I don't know. It 431 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: feels like every week more news breaks about first brands 432 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 2: and the unraveling here. 433 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: Even before I went bankrupt, like people are raising concerns 434 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: about double pledging, and like, yeah, it makes sense that, 435 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: Like when their bankruptcy team did a Friends of examination, 436 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: they're like, oh wow, there's tons of double pledging here. 437 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. You aptly linked to a Wall Street Journal report 438 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: talking about how now you have a lot more firms, 439 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 2: perhaps suggesting that we should up our due diligence. There 440 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: was an interesting report too from the Financial Time today 441 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 2: talking about how UPS is going to liquidate its funds 442 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: with major first brands exposure. Apparently they have a fund 443 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: specializing in invoice finance, specifically at O'Connor that is owned 444 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: by UBS in the process of being sold to Canter Fitzgerald, 445 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: which is pretty funny just in terms of obviously when 446 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: the steal was signed in May, things were much different. 447 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: And invoice financing fund now not so much. 448 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're even liquidating a high grade fund that 449 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 2: invested in invoices linked to less receive companies without any 450 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: first brand's exposure. But right also, no one's like. 451 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: Looking to get into like invoice financing right this minute. 452 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: I will say, you know, I've talked about diligence on 453 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: this sort of thing where you know, it's literally like 454 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: you send over an Excel file with thousands of invoices 455 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: and then they just send you the money. I'm like, 456 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: you're edit that excel file. I will say I got 457 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: at least two emails that included the word blockchain. 458 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: Oh, you know, that's what we've found a use case. 459 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: Whether or not it's blockchain, it does kind of feel 460 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,239 Speaker 1: like we have the technology to not just take it 461 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: on faith that that's just a pile of PDFs is real. 462 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: But not everyone deploys that technology. And you know, there's 463 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: a lot of trust in the financial system and sometimes 464 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: sometimes people buy seventeen exotic cars on the back of 465 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: that trust. 466 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: It's really funny. Blockchain does seem like an obvious answer here, 467 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: But don't put that in there. 468 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: Nope, we're putting them in. 469 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: No, oh, invoice financing funds. I don't know you say 470 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 2: that now, Maybe isn't a great time for them. I 471 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: want to read the story in like the next three 472 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: months about someone coming in and moving aggressively here, because 473 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: what was what was that? 474 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: It's a real business, Like, yeah, I feel like people 475 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: only ever talk about it when someone goes up in 476 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: a flaming pile of fraud. But like it's a real business. Yeah, 477 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: it's mostly fine. 478 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of the credit sweet blob. 479 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: Wasn't it eighty ones? What am I trying to remember? 480 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what credits. We had that Green Soul problem, 481 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: which was with the invoice financing from. 482 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: No, I'm definitely not thinking would. 483 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: Not oh the at ones in that Yeah, yeah, because 484 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: credit series wiped out billions of dollars of at ones 485 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: and for like twenty minutes people were like, I'll never 486 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: buy an at one again, and then like the at 487 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: one market came roaring back. Yeah, yes, I have to 488 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: say that. Like the day that was happening and people 489 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: were like, I'll never buy an at one again. I'm 490 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: pretty sure I wrote in a column like they will 491 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: definitely buy eight ones. 492 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: Next week, and they did. 493 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: The credit market has no memory whatsoever. 494 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 2: Maybe that will happen with I think, yeah, voice finance advice. 495 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: Financing, Like I don't think that like invoice financing will 496 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: be dead, but like I think people might do a 497 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: little bit more to a divillidence for a while. And 498 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: that was the Money Stuff podcast. 499 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 2: I'm Matt Levine and I'm Katie Greifeld. 500 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: You can find my work by subscribing to The Money 501 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: Stuff newsletter on. 502 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com, and you can find me on Bloomberg 503 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: TV every day on the Clothes between three and five 504 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: p we'd love to. 505 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: Hear from you. You can send an email to Moneypod 506 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net, ask us a question and we 507 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: might answer it on the air. 508 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 509 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 2: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 510 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: people find the show. 511 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Ana ma Aserakas. 512 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: And Moses on don Our theme music was composed by 513 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: Blake Maples. 514 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: Amy Keen is our executive. 515 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: Producer, and Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. 516 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. 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