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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to give a quick update on a topic that

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Speaker 1: me and Emily explored, uh maybe a year ago, which

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Speaker 1: is the women of white supremacy. I had a chance

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Speaker 1: to go to a I guess I'm gonna call it

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Speaker 1: a Nazi rally here in Washington, d C. It was

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Speaker 1: a group called Unite the Right, who is fronted by

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Speaker 1: Jason Kessler, and I went as part of a delegation

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Speaker 1: of another podcast on this network called Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: which if you have not listened to you should listen

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Speaker 1: to it and if you want to hear all the

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Speaker 1: stuff that went down at this Nazi rally, to definitely

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Speaker 1: check it out. This rally was kind of absurd. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was not something I ever thought I'd be doing

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Speaker 1: in the year to eighteen, was going to a Nazi

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Speaker 1: rally in my own hometown. But here we are, that's

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Speaker 1: the climate that we're in. Yeah, And the district spent

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Speaker 1: two point six million on policing and other costs that

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Speaker 1: were related to Sunday's rally and other costs related to

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Speaker 1: the August twelfth rally and the associated counter protest according

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Speaker 1: to a preliminary estimate from the city government, so costs

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. Yeah, and think about this. In

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Speaker 1: the end, only about thirty to forty Nazis showed up,

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Speaker 1: So that means that the city spent two point six

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Speaker 1: million on policing. That's more than eighty six k per Nazi.

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Speaker 1: That is so much money. Yeah, that is ridiculous amount. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: The rally was a weird experience for me. It was

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Speaker 1: almost I would have moments of it where I would

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Speaker 1: just sort of kind of almost like leave my body

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Speaker 1: and look around and be like, Wow, I am at

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Speaker 1: a Nazi rallyeen in my hometown. This is wild. Um.

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Speaker 1: One thing I was really surprised by was the amount

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Speaker 1: of women, um, in terms of the women that I

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Speaker 1: saw on the Nazi side, and it was very increase.

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Speaker 1: You're curious, how did you know who was who? It

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Speaker 1: was very obvious who the Nazi people were and who

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Speaker 1: were the counter protesters, because the Nazis were the one

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Speaker 1: that had police protection on all sides, like there was

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Speaker 1: a literal wall of police around them at all times. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so I was actually surprised there were of these

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Speaker 1: like thirty to forty people who were there. There was

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Speaker 1: a smattering of women, um who were who were marching

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Speaker 1: with the Nazis, and as you're gonna hear in the episode,

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Speaker 1: this should not be terribly surprising, although I did find

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Speaker 1: it surprising. But what was sort of heartwarming was that

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Speaker 1: there were so many women, particularly white women, marching with

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Speaker 1: the counter protesters. And so while I was surprised to

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Speaker 1: see a few women with the Nazis, there were way

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Speaker 1: more women, um, you know, counter protesting, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them were white women, and so I was really

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Speaker 1: kind of happy to see so many women takinging a

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Speaker 1: active role in you know, saying no to white supremacy,

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Speaker 1: saying no to you know, Nazis marching in our town. Um.

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Speaker 1: I actually bumped into one. Uh stuff mom ever told

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Speaker 1: your listener in the crowd, and here's what she had

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Speaker 1: to say, Um, yeah, I just wanted to know, like,

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Speaker 1: why are you off here where? Why? Why are you

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Speaker 1: want to come off on the protest today? Do me

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Speaker 1: to answer? Yes? I just felt like it was really

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Speaker 1: important to voice my opinion and let racist people know

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Speaker 1: that they're not welcome and they're not supported, and my

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Speaker 1: voice is louder and they're not the future. Hell yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's especially important for written to me here? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think so because I think a lot of what

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Speaker 1: they stand for is definitely anti warant Um And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important to voice my opinion. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a tense day. It was, um, Like,

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Speaker 1: the absurdity of it was not lost on me. I

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Speaker 1: had a few moments where I was very ten somebody

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Speaker 1: angering very upset. It was a very visceral day. Um,

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Speaker 1: But this is what we have to deal with, Like, like,

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Speaker 1: who would have ever thought this would be such a

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Speaker 1: big problem, But here we are. I certainly never thought

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Speaker 1: that we'd be dealing with this. Um. But we hope

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Speaker 1: that you check out the Behind the Bastards episode to

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Speaker 1: hear more about about the experience. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: here is the episode about women and white supremacy. Now

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Speaker 1: today we are called to this topic. Unfortunately because of

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Speaker 1: the horrific demonstration of terrorism and white supremacy and Nazism

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Speaker 1: on display in Charlotte'sville not too long ago. We couldn't

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Speaker 1: get into the studio soon enough to cover this topic.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to to not only pay honor to

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Speaker 1: the tragic death of Heather Higher in that horrific day

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Speaker 1: in charlotte Seville, but also talk honestly about the white

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Speaker 1: supremacy movement here in the United States. Isn't as male

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Speaker 1: dominated as we'd like to think it is. Isn't that right?

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Speaker 1: Be that's so right? Um. In doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: research for this episode, and then also just in having

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Speaker 1: eyes and being a person that exists in the world,

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Speaker 1: I think we see that women have a have a

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Speaker 1: role in white supremacy, and unpacking that and getting to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of that can be really hard. Um. I

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Speaker 1: also just want to say, as tragic as you know,

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Speaker 1: the loss of life and Charlie's full was, I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to lift up that life lost. Also understanding

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Speaker 1: that so many black and brown folks have been violently

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Speaker 1: killed because of white supremacy. And I don't want to

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Speaker 1: pray as because this white woman got killed, we now

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Speaker 1: have to talk about racism in a real way when

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Speaker 1: it's really a larger, you know problem. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: black lives matter, right. I think we can start there

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Speaker 1: by saying that there have been far too many lives

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Speaker 1: lost in because of the movement around white supremacy, and

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Speaker 1: because of our our nation's really uncomfortable history with this,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of uncomfortable white folks out

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Speaker 1: there right now who are forced to reckon with this.

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Speaker 1: When we see Nazis marching without hoods, when we see

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Speaker 1: what you know, these tiki torch wielding, collar shirt wearing

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Speaker 1: average white guys walking through the streets proudly professing their hatred,

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Speaker 1: it really forces I think a lot of white folks

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Speaker 1: to wake up and recognize white supremacies alive and well

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Speaker 1: in a way that's easier to ignore when you're not

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Speaker 1: on the receiving end of that kind of persecution. I

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Speaker 1: think that's so true. Um. In the aftermath of Charlotte's Bill, Um,

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Speaker 1: something that I was sort of really taken by was

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Speaker 1: this rush to have, you know, slogans like this is

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Speaker 1: not us. And I get that sentiment, but you know what,

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Speaker 1: this is us, This is America, this is white, this

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Speaker 1: is the country that we've built, this is the stuff

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Speaker 1: our country was founded on. And saying this is not

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Speaker 1: us is a way of removing it and making it

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Speaker 1: less real. But a lot of folks of color don't

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Speaker 1: have that option exactly. And I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of us women, it can be tempting to look at

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Speaker 1: these photos that are predominantly male, right, these are mostly

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Speaker 1: men who are marching in the street, and think, what

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Speaker 1: are all these angry white guys, you know, feeling victimized about?

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Speaker 1: And that belies the fact that behind those photos of

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Speaker 1: our white women at home, you know, cooking a lovely

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Speaker 1: meal for their white man to come home from that

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Speaker 1: march to consume. Or there are mothers and sisters, and

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Speaker 1: there are lots of women that have been instrumental in

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Speaker 1: the movement for white supremacy. See not just today, which

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, but historically. Yeah, and even

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Speaker 1: with the guy who drove his car into the protests

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Speaker 1: at charlet Spell, when they interviewed his mother, you really

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Speaker 1: got the sense that she had sort of turned a

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Speaker 1: blind eye to something toxic that was brewing in her

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Speaker 1: own son because she maybe did not want to confront

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Speaker 1: it and didn't fully understand it, so she did let

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Speaker 1: it go, right, And so there are lots of different

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Speaker 1: levels to people's complicitness with white supremacy, either involvement with

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Speaker 1: or perpetuation of white supremacy that we want to unpack today.

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Speaker 1: Specifically focusing on women's involvement in white supremacy historically and

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Speaker 1: in the present day. One of the first articles that

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Speaker 1: came to mind when I started talking about this on

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Speaker 1: Twitter a couple of weeks ago now was from Genevieve

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Speaker 1: Hatch for the Huffington Post, who wrote it wasn't just

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Speaker 1: white men who participated in the Unite the Right rally.

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Speaker 1: In that article, she says, quote, white supremacy is indeed

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Speaker 1: rooted in racism and misogyny, but white women have historically

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Speaker 1: enabled racism, even if it came with the cost of misogyny.

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Speaker 1: And in Charlottesville, many yet again chose to maintain their

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Speaker 1: white privilege by choosing subordination to white men over solidarity

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Speaker 1: with people of color, which I thought was a really

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Speaker 1: interesting psychological choice. This idea that in the white supremacist

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Speaker 1: movements historically there's been a lot of patriarchy involved. There's

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Speaker 1: been a very clear delineation between men's roles and women's

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Speaker 1: roles historically, and today that's where a lot of the

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Speaker 1: um sort of moral family values part of the far

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Speaker 1: right movement in the United States and modern history has

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Speaker 1: said we want women to be free to stay at home.

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Speaker 1: We want women to be free to be homemakers and

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Speaker 1: really relegated to that domain. Even in the KKK they said, no,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate that you're pro white supremacy women, but we

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Speaker 1: don't want to involved in leading this movement per se.

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Speaker 1: There was resistance there. I think that idea that women

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Speaker 1: that their role traditionally in supporting these kinds of movements

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Speaker 1: is by creating a stable domestic situation at home, so

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Speaker 1: the men can be on the front lines, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing Nazi stuff exactly. And I hope that I hope

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Speaker 1: that we can have this conversation in the way that

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Speaker 1: we usually do, which is by putting a little bit

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Speaker 1: of fun at things and having a laugh in the

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Speaker 1: face of this really insane stuff that's happening today. But

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Speaker 1: I hope that you listeners and know that this doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean we're making light of the subject. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just in my own personal life, being a woman of color,

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Speaker 1: there's this old adage of laugh to keep from crying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, not everybody embraces that, and that is fine,

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Speaker 1: But I think that as folks of color, our senses

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Speaker 1: of humor have have helped us persevere through so much

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Speaker 1: and I've got a lot of kicks out of making

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Speaker 1: fun of Nazis the last few days. Um, it's pretty easy.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them are ridiculous, absolutely bridget And I

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Speaker 1: want to bring it back to the point that women

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Speaker 1: have long been involved, like you said, especially in the

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Speaker 1: domestic sphere, in perpetuating the movements around white supremacy. In fact,

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Speaker 1: women were responsible for the erection of many of those

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Speaker 1: Confederate statues that were paying homage to the Civil War

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Speaker 1: generals involved in the rebellion from the South. So all

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Speaker 1: those mass fabricated statues that we've seen come down and

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Speaker 1: crumble in a surprisingly simple fashion when they tumbled to

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Speaker 1: the ground. Uh, those were mass produced and put up

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Speaker 1: thanks to the very organized ladies who lend to the South. Really,

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Speaker 1: this was like Southern women were at the forefront during

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Speaker 1: the Jim Crow era of of erecting these monuments to

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Speaker 1: remind folks of color who they really value. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, I grew up right outside of Richmond, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: on going to school right near Monument Avenue every day,

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Speaker 1: and if you ever in Richmond, it's a you can't

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Speaker 1: walk down the street without constant reminders that you are

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Speaker 1: in the former capital of the Confederacy. Wow. So some

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Speaker 1: of the best journalism that I've seen that really unpacks

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Speaker 1: the history of women's involvement in white supremacy has been

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Speaker 1: written by Laura Smith. She wrote in New York Magazines

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Speaker 1: The Cut an article called the Truth about Women and

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Speaker 1: White Supremacy. She's also a staff writer for Timeline dot com.

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Speaker 1: And we're thrilled that Laura was able to join us

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Speaker 1: here today. Thanks for having me and thanks for the

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Speaker 1: kind words article. Well, it was really really eye opening,

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Speaker 1: I know for both of us. Can you tell us, Laura,

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Speaker 1: what is the truth? What is the sort of untold

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Speaker 1: story behind women's involvement in the rise of white supremacy. Well,

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Speaker 1: a couple of things. It's sort of complicated, is the

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Speaker 1: short answer, UM. And the longer answer is that white

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Speaker 1: women have always been involved in white supremacy, whether it

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Speaker 1: was a more subtle role UM or whether they had

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Speaker 1: a more public faith UM as they did in the

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Speaker 1: n So that era was sort of the heyday of

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Speaker 1: the clueklux Klan and UM. They had their own autonomous

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Speaker 1: arm during that period. So it was called the w

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Speaker 1: KKK for Women's clu klux Klant right, yea um, And

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Speaker 1: I mean one thing to keep in mind as we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this is, like I've heard criticism that what

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Speaker 1: we're saying is that women those are more blame than me,

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Speaker 1: and that's not really what we are doing. What what

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Speaker 1: what we're saying when we say that we need to

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Speaker 1: look at the role of white women in white supremacy

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Speaker 1: and racism in this country, what we're saying is that

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Speaker 1: we need to look at it as a system wide issue.

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Speaker 1: That racism and white supremacy in this country are not

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Speaker 1: you know, just cross burning and the sort of more

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Speaker 1: um like picture worthy like uh flash ear like news

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Speaker 1: flash ear type sayings. It's really much more. But it's

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Speaker 1: woven into society. And women are a part of society.

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Speaker 1: And so if we're not acknowledging the role that women

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Speaker 1: are playing, then we're not acknowledging. But it's woven into

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Speaker 1: the fabric of society. I mean, I think that when

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Speaker 1: we when we see something really traumatic happening, it's really

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Speaker 1: tempting to rely on gender tropes and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: and sort of revert to this idea as like like

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Speaker 1: you said, like women being the moral center or having

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Speaker 1: more high ground or being you know, the center of

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Speaker 1: the home and love and all of those things. And

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Speaker 1: that's you know, it's a really old fashioned idea. It's

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Speaker 1: it's a Victorian idea. It was an idea before but

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Speaker 1: before the Victorians, you know, um, that women are somehow

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Speaker 1: more pure, and you know, we have as a society

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Speaker 1: I think largely rejected that idea, um, because it led

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Speaker 1: to a lot of horrible things like when being sexually

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Speaker 1: repressed and other things like that, and you know, and

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Speaker 1: really was unfair to the fact that women are complicated

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Speaker 1: human beings, vocated desires and all of these things. And

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Speaker 1: you know, but we are saying, and it is really

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Speaker 1: comping to say, no, women have nothing to do with violence, um.

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Speaker 1: And like you know, like I was saying earlier, I

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Speaker 1: think that to not acknowledge that is to not acknowledge

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Speaker 1: the violence inherence in society and at least on behalf

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Speaker 1: of you know, white people and people's power. It's really

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Speaker 1: something to look at the pictures of the w KKK

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Speaker 1: and be really like focused on that. But what we

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Speaker 1: also have to remember is that when the w KKK ended,

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Speaker 1: the women who were active and that you know, they

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Speaker 1: went back into the school board and they were you know,

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Speaker 1: a part of local and national politics. So and that

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Speaker 1: is you know, the pictures of that are less flashy,

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Speaker 1: but that is important as well. Absolutely, And there's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful connection that you really highlighted in your piece for

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Speaker 1: Timeline dot com. Uh. The headline was the KKK started

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Speaker 1: a branch just for women in the nineteen twenties and

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Speaker 1: half a million joined, which I thought was jaw dropping

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Speaker 1: as a you know, just from the headline on forward.

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Speaker 1: But in that piece you draw this connection that I

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Speaker 1: found really interesting between women's suffrage and the early successes

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Speaker 1: of women's liberation in the nineteen twenties to this sort

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Speaker 1: of warped rise of women's power when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the movement for white supremacy in the KKK. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell me more about that connection. Yeah, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: like a super weird thing about this whole thing is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, after suffrage, when when women won the right

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Speaker 1: to vote, they became more politically engaged and they felt

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Speaker 1: empowered to do this. And so women with racist and

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Speaker 1: nativist ideologies we're looking for other ways to channel you know,

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Speaker 1: their ideology into political organizations and things like that. So

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Speaker 1: you know, and they did it under the guise of,

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Speaker 1: you know, concerned about education, and that's holding the American way,

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Speaker 1: which of course we know a code for you know,

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Speaker 1: the white Anglo Sacs and Protestant way, you know. And

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Speaker 1: so they were really active against Catholics, so not just

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Speaker 1: black people. And then I think twenty KKK was really

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Speaker 1: focused on immigrants, um, and you know, increasing number of

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Speaker 1: immigrants who are coming to this country. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I think it's this really strange thing where it

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Speaker 1: was a kind of a weird form of some of them.

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Speaker 1: M yeah, let's all just take a beat to let

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Speaker 1: that thing in. I mean, I have to say I

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Speaker 1: can't help but draw parallels to that today. That's sort of, um,

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Speaker 1: white women's, white women's political power being used in some

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Speaker 1: really toxic ways that just you know, further really toxic

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Speaker 1: stuff under the guise of care about national security or

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Speaker 1: I care about my family's education. I see the same

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Speaker 1: that same rhetoric being used to sort of gift wrap

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Speaker 1: really toxic political ideology um into something that's a little

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Speaker 1: bit more palatable for women. That's exactly right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing the exact same thing, like the family values

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Speaker 1: movement is in many ways, you know, very thinly veiled racism,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's a lot of talk about immigrants

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Speaker 1: and crime and other things. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the sort of depressing things about being story

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Speaker 1: writers that you just do the same things propping us

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Speaker 1: again and again and again. It's scary. I mean, what,

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Speaker 1: what are the lessons learned that we can draw from

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, Because what you really highlighted for me

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Speaker 1: and you're writing is that women were hugely responsible for

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Speaker 1: the expansion of white supremacy. It's not just that the

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Speaker 1: w KKK was this tiny offshoot, it's that they were

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Speaker 1: extremely effective. Were they not? Well, I think they were effective.

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Speaker 1: And I think the reason, I mean, it's still like

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Speaker 1: pills in comparison. I think that KKK in that period

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Speaker 1: with four millions. But I think the thing that we

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Speaker 1: need to look at is the ways in which their

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Speaker 1: messaging is still being used. So in the more palatable

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Speaker 1: forms of their messaging that are still being used, which

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Speaker 1: is what you guys were just pointing out about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the family value stuff. Um. So, so one of the

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Speaker 1: lessons that we need to take away, um from the

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Speaker 1: w k K k is we should be looking at

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Speaker 1: the less obvious tribology that they were using, So not

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Speaker 1: the burning crosses, because those are really recognizable, But what

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Speaker 1: are the lesser recognizable forms of racism that still permeate

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Speaker 1: our culture? Um? And I think we see that in

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Speaker 1: a lot of the you know, MAGA messaging and you know,

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Speaker 1: make America great again, like what is that code for?

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Speaker 1: To make America white again? Um? And other things like that.

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Speaker 1: So I think we need to It's almost like we

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Speaker 1: need to look less at the like white coats, because

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Speaker 1: those are such obvious symbols and look at the systemic,

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Speaker 1: you know, like less easily identifiable forms of white supremacy

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Speaker 1: that exists today. Definitely, I definitely see this temptation, and

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Speaker 1: I get it. It's very understandable, this temptation of a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks to look at those more obvious symbols

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Speaker 1: of white supremacy and racism that you were just talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, burning crosses and Nazi salutes and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And in a kind of way, even though those images

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Speaker 1: are very jarring, they allow people to sort of disassociate

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Speaker 1: because they can look at those things and say, I'm

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Speaker 1: not that, I'm not burning across I'm not wearing a swatstka.

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Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, doing a Nazi salute in the street. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: and neither is my son, neither is my husband, neither

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Speaker 1: is my brother, and neither is you know, my good

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Speaker 1: guy friend. Nobody in my sphere is doing that. And

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Speaker 1: it kind of allows them to make that other and

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Speaker 1: make it something they don't have to deal with because

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Speaker 1: it's so removed from their day to day and they

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Speaker 1: can then make themselves believe that they are not an

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Speaker 1: age and a a white supremacy, even if they kind of

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Speaker 1: are exactly exactly. It provides a lot of cover for

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Speaker 1: people to then subtlely inaccuracy racial you know, policies that

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Speaker 1: are accompful. So like a great example of this is

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Speaker 1: urban renewal. It sounds great, like who doesn't want the

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Speaker 1: city to be renewed? That sounds like a really great idea,

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Speaker 1: But what that often means is taking homes away from

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Speaker 1: black people. So to go to the Charlotteville example. Um,

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Speaker 1: another piece I wrote for Timeline was about how charlotte'

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Speaker 1: Svielle had a thriving black community called Vinegar Hill and

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Speaker 1: it was demolished in the nineties sixties as a part

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Speaker 1: of an urban renewal project, and it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: essentially marketed to people as we're going to clean the

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Speaker 1: city up. And what that meant with clothing black businesses

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Speaker 1: taking away black black and houses and things like that. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And so just knowing the history of how cities are

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Speaker 1: legislating and on whose behalf they're sort of crafting the future,

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Speaker 1: I think it says a lot about the racial climate

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Speaker 1: in at community and it's a good example of racism

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Speaker 1: or white supremacy. Isn't the equivalent of marching through the

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Speaker 1: streets with a tiki torch and a in a white

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Speaker 1: supremacy rally. It can also be baked into our politics,

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Speaker 1: as you're saying, and into our policies, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: starting from the top on down. Exactly when you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the make America Great Again messaging, I'm looking back at

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Speaker 1: some of the slogans you referenced that we're used by

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Speaker 1: the w KKK way back in the nineteen twenties and

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Speaker 1: can't help but draw comparisons to what you're describing. They

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Speaker 1: said things like, are you interested in the welfare of

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Speaker 1: our nation? As an enfranchised woman? Are you interested in

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Speaker 1: better government, should we not interest ourselves in better education

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Speaker 1: for our children? And then you went on to describe

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Speaker 1: that they organized parades and food drives with the benefit

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Speaker 1: funneled right back into clan families, and joining the clan meant,

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Speaker 1: you know, proving yourself as pure and Aryan and non

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Speaker 1: communist and non Protestant and all those things, and also

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Speaker 1: being vouched for by multiple clan members too. So this

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Speaker 1: was very much an insular supremacist society that watched out

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Speaker 1: for one another. And so that that's a positive framing

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Speaker 1: of a totally bigoted act. Well, just to add on

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Speaker 1: to that, just recently online I saw an actual flyer

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Speaker 1: for a white supremacist organization that used that exact same

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Speaker 1: framing of you know, concern about education your children, um,

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Speaker 1: preserving your idea, your cultural identity, um. Things that all

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Speaker 1: sound great until you step back and say, wait, this

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Speaker 1: is a white supremacist organization right exactly, and so much

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Speaker 1: of what we're saying. I mean, I live in Berkeley

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Speaker 1: and I work in San Francisco, and last weekend, you know,

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Speaker 1: there were two marches that were organized here, and what

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Speaker 1: you saw people organizing around what the right claimed to

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Speaker 1: be organizing around the so called called right um, because

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Speaker 1: you know, there's an argument that we should just call

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Speaker 1: them what they are, which is white supremises, and not

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Speaker 1: you know, validate them without a less potent term doult

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Speaker 1: right um. But what you saw them organizing around was

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Speaker 1: free speech, you know, and I think that it's really

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Speaker 1: important that we not buy into that messaging. So what

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Speaker 1: they're doing is they're making it about free speech. I mean, choosing, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's the message that we're going to organized line because

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Speaker 1: everybody can get behind free speech. You know, it's and

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Speaker 1: it's a right that we can all defend, and no

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Speaker 1: one would be against that. So it's a really smart

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Speaker 1: pr move, you know, it's and you know the rights

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Speaker 1: has and you know what, supremacist particularly have done a

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Speaker 1: good job of packaging there really important messages in packaging

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Speaker 1: that is more appealing to everyone. That's that's so right.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to a point that you

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Speaker 1: made earlier just a minute ago about this framing of

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Speaker 1: white supremacists versus the right or Nazis um. Something that

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Speaker 1: I've noticed and I noticed it's very very early on

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people in the media got clack

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00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: boar It was this idea that when the alt right

430
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: first kind of entered the cultural zeitgeist, they are all

431
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: these articles about, oh, they're dressed so fancy, and look

432
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 1: at Richard Spencer's haircut. He certainly is a tidy dresser.

433
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: And it sort of made this very toxic, messed up

434
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: political ideology palatable in this way by highlighting the fact

435
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 1: that these white supremacists were not wearing hoods. They were

436
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: wearing suits and ties and tidy haircuts even in the

437
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: White House now right exactly exactly saw Yeah, I'm wondering

438
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: if you can speak to that, Like, what do you

439
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: think was going on with that move to rebrand from

440
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, a naziero white supremacist to quote the alt

441
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: right with a tidy haircut but still a nazi right, Well,

442
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: not just a tidy haircut, but like a hip haircut

443
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: you cut. Yeah, I've had some dudes with that same

444
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: cut and you know, ditched the haircut. He had to

445
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: go on Twitter and like basically disown his haircut. I

446
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of dudes in Brooklyn and Oakland

447
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: and have to be like, guys, I've always had this haircut.

448
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: I'm not I just really like it high and tight.

449
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: It's so funny. I saw a closter at at the

450
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: counter demonstration and Berkeley this weekend. Um, and it was

451
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: a guy you know who was demonstrating against white dipharmacy,

452
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: and he said, uh, give gay people their hair cut back.

453
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: I saw that there are all these other kind of

454
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: strange accouterments of modern day white supremacy New Balance sneakers,

455
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: like imagine your your crappy, toxic political ideology having a

456
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: preferred footwear. What is happening? Hey, did not I miss

457
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: the memo on Alan Yes or New Balance? That's a

458
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: weird position. Yeah, I mean I think that this is

459
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: like all of this gets to the point that like

460
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: a lot of this is packaging and we have to

461
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: be really careful when we're looking at it and say,

462
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: you know, what's behind the packaging, what are they actually selling?

463
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: You know? And it's behind the mirror of the New Balance,

464
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: And you know, the like hit to do is blatant

465
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: white supremacy, sexism, um nativism, nationalism, all of that. How

466
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: can other people get better? Because I've definitely seen even

467
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: outlets that you would think would would get it right. Um,

468
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: Mother Jones comes to mind. Washington Post comes to mind.

469
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: They did get swept up in this branding and this

470
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: great pr of you know, who are these dapper new

471
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: Nazis storming into town? How can what can the media

472
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: do to be better? So I think a couple of things.

473
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: I think that if they're going to write about the

474
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: protests or counter protests, they should actually be there. Um,

475
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: there was a really alarming Washington Post articles that I

476
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: thought really mischaracterized the nature of the counter protests that

477
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: happened in Berkeley recently. And I think that you know,

478
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: just has to like as journalists the vigilant as saying,

479
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: looking at what's being presented and then going to step

480
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: further and game what is behind that and what is

481
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: the true intention, true nature of this group or whatever else.

482
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: And it's really tempting, especially when violence is involved, too

483
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: quickly leap to conclusions, and I think that that must

484
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: be resisted at all costs. You know, it's up to

485
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: journalists to call things as they are, not as basing.

486
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: We're so grateful for Laura for joining us and spending

487
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: some time sharing really her expertise in the history behind

488
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: women's involvement in white supremacy. When we come back, we're

489
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: going to talk about how the movement for white supremacy,

490
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: and unfortunately women's involvement in that movement perpetuates today. Stay

491
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: with us after this quick break and we are back,

492
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: and buckle up, white folks, especially because it's about to

493
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: get even more uncomfortable. I know that this can be

494
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: a really tough topic to get a little self critical

495
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: around racism in America and white supremacy and the institutions

496
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: and sort of lattice work of white supremacy that persists

497
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: in our country. But this is not something that is

498
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: relegated to hoodwearing, cross burning, tiki torch wielding people marching

499
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: through the streets. It's just not always that overt. It's

500
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: not always that over. And if there was one thing

501
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to impart on people about racism is

502
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: you don't need to be burning across on someone's lawn

503
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: or wearing a swastika shaved into your head to perpetuate

504
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: some really toxic stuff on race. Racism is a system

505
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: we all have, you know, a role to play in

506
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: these systems that kind of control our lives and that

507
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: our country was founded on. And even if you're someone

508
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: who says, oh well, I don't have a problem with

509
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: black people, or I don't have a problem with immigrants,

510
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: or you to give yourself as someone who's good or

511
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: someone who quote doesn't see race. We all have, which

512
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: is but we all have a role in this, because

513
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: we all have in society exactly. And you know what,

514
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: one of the best resources I found on this is

515
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: actually called the Racism Scale, which was put out for

516
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: free along with some a bunch of educational resources that

517
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: you can find at racism scale dot weebly. That's w

518
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: E E B l y dot com, which is really

519
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: a labor of love by a few groups formed around

520
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: social justice and some activists who put together the scale

521
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: that they never intended to go viral, but has in

522
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: fact gone viral since Charlottesville because it really beautifully and

523
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: visually describes the sort of sliding scale of racist beliefs

524
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: that you might catch yourself experiencing on occasion. Now, this

525
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: is us calling you in, as you've discussed in a

526
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: recent episode, and not calling you out, but calling you in,

527
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: and especially as someone who presents white, calling in my

528
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: white fellow women and men, to think critically before we

529
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: jump to action to help other people, to help folks

530
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: of color. Let's begin by doing the really hard work

531
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: of self analysis and self critique by looking at this

532
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: sliding scale and thinking about where you might lie. Yeah,

533
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: I think this scale is a really useful tool. Um.

534
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: One of the things I really like about it is

535
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: that it lays out what you might think of as

536
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: of course that's really racist and messed up, like I

537
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: would kill a person because they were black or whites

538
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: or the superior race. But it also goes to a

539
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: spectrum where it's these smaller, more subtle forms of racism

540
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: and things that you might even catch yourself saying from

541
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: time to time, things like how am I privileged if

542
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: I was born poor? Or I just don't like the ghetto,

543
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: or it was just joke, or what about reverse racism?

544
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: If you find yourself thinking these things, these are actually

545
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: not the most productive and useful thoughts when you're thinking

546
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: about institutions like white supremacy. Yeah. The thing I love

547
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: about this is that you don't have to be a

548
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: terrorist or an overt racist to fall on this scale.

549
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: There really is a huge extent to the scale that

550
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: was around denial, things like well, racism is no longer

551
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: a thing all the way to feeling like a white

552
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: savior who has to come in and save the day,

553
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: or this justification of being woke. Uh, this idea that

554
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: there's you know, that love conquers all this like can't

555
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: we all just get along kumbaya post racial society stuff.

556
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: And something that I think is really really important that

557
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: we dive deeper into, which is known as the performative ally. Now,

558
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: once you get beyond the performative ally the person who

559
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: might I don't know, were a safety pin just to

560
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: show everybody that they're not a ra cist in the

561
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: era of Donald Trump in the White House. Once you

562
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: get beyond that sort of performative ally ship, which is

563
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: really all about you, the ally making sure everyone knows

564
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: that you're a good person. That's where we can get

565
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: to true awareness around privilege and it's a continuous impact

566
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: in society and real lasting ally ship and to talk

567
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: more about ally ship and what that looks like when

568
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: it's being done in a thoughtful way versus a not

569
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: so thoughtful way. We're really pleased to be joined by

570
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Marissa Jeanne Johnson. She's a co creator of the safety

571
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: Pinbox along with Leslie mac and they're amazing digital activists

572
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: and really rad black women that you should definitely be

573
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: following on Twitter and listening to. Marissa. Thank you so

574
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. So, Marissa,

575
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: first of all, tell me about safety pin Box and

576
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: why you and Leslie created it. Yeah. So, you know,

577
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: we're three years antibist Black Lives Matter movement, and I

578
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: feel like in general, we're in like a soul searching period.

579
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Who are pople are really looking for direction in the movement.

580
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: And one of the major problems that hasn't been solved

581
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: in the movement is we most of the UM people

582
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: in the movement, primarily black women, black queer folks, UM,

583
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: are really struggling to figure out the sustainability piece of

584
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: this movement because when everything, you know, sort of popped

585
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: off with the Ferguson uprising and with the with the

586
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: murder of Mike Brown, and everybody was running sort of

587
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: off of pure emotion in the channeline UM. But here

588
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: we are three years later, Donald Trumps UM president, and

589
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: people are needing to find out more sustainable avenues for

590
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: doing this work. So that's the context that me and

591
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: my co founder Leslie come out of this being you know,

592
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: activists around us who will be on MSNBC one day

593
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: and who we know, um can afford by groceries that week?

594
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: And there seemed to be no solution. So that's the

595
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: context that we came out of. And then the election

596
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump happened and we saw this overwhelming sort

597
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: of like emotion shin and like fake or maybe not

598
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: bake shock from quote unquote liberals or well to do

599
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: white people like how does this happen? And and there

600
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: was a lot of like um and I think still

601
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: is a lot of people emoting all over the place

602
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: of like oh no, we have to stop this. And

603
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: what me and Leslie saw all right off the bat

604
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: was that people didn't know what to do or how

605
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: to actually respond. And one of the one of the

606
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: ways that we knew that one of the greatest symbols

607
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: that we saw this um following the election of Donald

608
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: Trump was the safety pin SAT, which was basically imported

609
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: from the UK, which is basically these idea, this idea

610
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: that you know, white lipperals or could meeting white people

611
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: would wear safety pin on their like lappel or their

612
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: shirt or whatever, and that would signal to everyone else

613
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: who was around, including like uh, a Muslim woman, you know,

614
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: who was being a victim of a hit crime, or

615
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: a gay person or a black person or who was

616
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: in danger or whatever. That um that they were a

617
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: safe white person and that they would intervene. And this

618
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: this fad was pretty laughable to UH, to a lot

619
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: of UH people of marginalized identities, and particularly black woman

620
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: because it felt very performative and and a lot of

621
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: people when you talk to them who were pro safety pin,

622
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: you like, cool, what's your safety plan for when someone

623
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: attacks someone in front of you? I didn't have a plan.

624
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: So it was very basically just virtue signaling the other

625
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: white people. So to say, I took a little flak

626
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: on this very show for being skeptical of safety pins.

627
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: Well we've laughed about them, people, Yeah, we've laughed about them,

628
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: and people don't like that. People got very people get

629
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: defensive when you call out there. I mean, I hate

630
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: to say it. They're shallow, empty attempt at signaling virtue. Well,

631
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: the other piece about this, I mean that was the

632
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: first pizza at the mostly Are in Jamaica all this

633
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: was going down. The centerpiece was always saw white people

634
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: to modifying the shafety pin and selling three shafety pin

635
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: necklaces and and even now you know, we saw pant

636
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: Nation was like seventy dollars branded pant suit Nation logging,

637
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: and we're like, okay, where is all this money going to?

638
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: Is this money going to those who are directly affective?

639
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: And so basically white people, as white people do, we're

640
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: making money off of the emotional or responsient and like

641
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: very little prob more likely than not, none of that

642
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: money was saying back directly day he was most effective.

643
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: So that's kind of how we came up with the

644
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: idea to kill two birds with one stone. Why don't we,

645
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: um create a product to educate white people on what

646
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: kind of tangible actions they can take, and let's use

647
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: a considerable amount of that money to directly financially suppoor

648
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: activists on the ground. Yeah, so I love that so much. Um,

649
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: I just wanted to lift up something that you said

650
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: in that. It is just idea that after Trump got elected,

651
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: it was sort of a spectrum of kind of fake

652
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: shock by maybe well meeting whites who are like how

653
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: could this happen? And then sort of this sort of

654
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: performative safety pin thing, and then this last kind of

655
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: gross thing of commodifying that that that ally performance. Um.

656
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious, what does it look like to

657
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: be a good ally If you're a white person who

658
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: was well meeting and you know, disgusted by racism and

659
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, what do you how do you avoid

660
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: falling into this trap of having it be either a

661
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: very performative without actually having a a tangible you know,

662
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: metric for what it looks like when you actually do

663
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: something helpful, or without having it be like this emotional

664
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: thing that's all about you and how sad you are,

665
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: right right, well, A one of the things I like

666
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: to say is there are no good white people. Um,

667
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: and I mean very specifically. Can you explain that? Can

668
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: you explain that a little bit for outs? Yeah, immediately

669
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: feeling defensive white person on behalf of all the defensive

670
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: white listeners that we have. Yeah, don't just it's fine

671
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: defensive white persons. Let me finished. I'm explaining it, right,

672
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: But I'll be very clear. There there are no good

673
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: white people. Um. And one of the things that I

674
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: encourage white folks who who want to be useful in

675
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: the fight for black oboration is to work through that

676
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: notion that there are no good white people. Um. And

677
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: and why that's important is the first piece is that um.

678
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: One of the issues that we see is that a

679
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: lot of white people think they're already good or good enough, right,

680
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: so they don't do any introspection. They aren't able to

681
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: actively engage critique, right, because I'm one of the good ones, right,

682
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: and so and a lot of the actions that we

683
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: see people doing are preoccupied with looking like a good

684
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: person or not looking bad, and so we put folks

685
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: in the position where they care more about looking good.

686
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: So if you're able to let go of this notion

687
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: that you are a good white person or always wanting

688
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: to see like you look like a good word person,

689
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: then ideally you can step beyond that to really be

690
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: self critical and to be able to um actually receive uh,

691
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: actually received criticism, right, actually be held accountable for your actions.

692
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: Because a lot of times, when we're talking about racism,

693
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: you talk to a white person, you can be very

694
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: direct and say you harm me in ex way, and

695
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: they'll say, but I'm a good right. There's it's instant

696
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: sputaneously back, I'm a good white person. So if you

697
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: if you let go of that, miss all the altogether

698
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: we believe that's where you can start doing the work. Now,

699
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: the flip side of that um is not masochism, right,

700
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: It's not self pity and white people are the worst

701
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: and like, oh my gosh, I cannot do anything like

702
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: that's another thing that we see. It's also resentering the

703
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: issues back on white folks, right, and wellening your self pity.

704
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: And what we really in courage people to do is

705
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: let's cause this notion of a good white person, right,

706
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: and also, don't be so inwardly focused that you're like,

707
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: well I could do nothing, no, but you want to

708
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: be better, let's do that, right. Well, I love people

709
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: who can never get further than that. I want to

710
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: lift up what I love the most about Safety pin Box,

711
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: which is it's really action oriented and targeted to a

712
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: white consumer. Right, So you send a monthly subscription in

713
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: box form to your white paying customers and give practical,

714
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: actionable steps that they can take that white women like

715
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: myself or white people at large can take to begin

716
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: to really be introspective, be self critical, be analytical not

717
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: only about yourself your beliefs, but really your actions and

718
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: your community, and how you can start right in your

719
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: own home dismantling institutions of white supremacy and how it

720
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,280
Speaker 1: really does fall on white folks to be involved aolved

721
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: in that process from a critical and analytical perspective. And

722
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: then you're taking the money that those clients, that those

723
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: consumers of the safety pinbox are sending to you and

724
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: re funneling those funds directly to black women in the movement,

725
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: and you're not dictating how those women use the money, right,

726
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: It's directly for their own use in being sustainable in

727
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: this time, in this climate, which I just I think

728
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: is such an awesome model and such a great example

729
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: of if someone really wants to know what it looks

730
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: like to be introspective, they can go to your website

731
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: and get one of those I believe you have a

732
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: sample action, right, a sample action like what comes from

733
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: we have a sample test. That's that's all about. We

734
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: have a sample test. That's all about assessing power and

735
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: um in your community and in your personal life and

736
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: seeing how you've been shifted, uh to fight backins white

737
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: supremacy because um, well, I mean we give the practical piece.

738
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: You do a lot on the interspection, right, because part

739
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: of it is white people working through their own feelings

740
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: around this, right, because I believe that UM unpacking whiteness

741
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: and all of its trappings is part of the work.

742
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: So that's simultaneously what people do. But a lot of

743
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: times people think that these issues are so big, right

744
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: that they're like all they can just do is just

745
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: be sad and like re share sad articles on Facebook,

746
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, UM. And so part of what we do

747
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: is is really part you learn about an issue, you

748
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: learn about your role in it, and be introspective around that.

749
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: But then we really cart it down toto, like if

750
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: you had half an hour today to work on something,

751
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: or half an hour twice a week for a month

752
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: to work on something, like, what could you actually do?

753
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: And so that's why the sample task is around power,

754
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: because we found that a lot of people say, oh,

755
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do, and they haven't even done

756
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: an assessment over the power that they hold in their

757
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: own lives, and do an assessment there. Feel five you

758
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: actually do have a lot of control over where your

759
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: money goes, over your workplace, if you own a home,

760
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 1: you have control over that space and how safe it

761
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: can be. Marginal l um and even just starting there

762
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: opens up new ideas for people, And I can tell

763
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 1: you right now, so many of our listeners are right

764
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: there of saying what can I do? I feel powerless

765
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: in this fight because white supremacy on display in this

766
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: country right now especially feels overwhelming. It feels like I

767
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: don't know where to begin. It feels you know, that

768
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: that shock, that horror where, whether it is fake or

769
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: not so fake, is baked into our country. Right How

770
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: do we even begin to dismantle something that feels so

771
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: big and so overwhelming? Uh? You know, even when we

772
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: have white privilege going for us, it doesn't always feel

773
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: like one person can change. So I just I love

774
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: how you break it down and make it really practical.

775
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: Is there an example you could give for some of

776
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: our listeners today who do have a half hour, who

777
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: do want to examine their own power structures at home,

778
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: who do want to take action and come up with

779
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: not just a safety pin, but a safety plan for

780
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: making marginalized folks in their world a little safer. Where

781
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: could we begin or what what's one action we might

782
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: be able to start with? Right? Well, I will say

783
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: that the part of the trip to this is a

784
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: lot of people want to do work that looks Grant glamorous,

785
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: and most of the works that needs to be done

786
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: is really unglamorous, is me neal. It takes It does

787
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: take a long time. Even if you only have half

788
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: an hour times a week, it may take years for

789
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: you to build the connections that you want to do.

790
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: But one of the um this month for August are

791
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: seeing is forget the police hashteg STP and UH. We're

792
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: learning all about police abolition and the idea of abolishing

793
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: the police and finding me alternatives to police. And one

794
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: of the really tangible tasks that we're having our members

795
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: work on is seeing as they can get their whole block,

796
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: their whole neighborhoods block to agree to a thirty day

797
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: ban on calling the police into their neighborhoods and so

798
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: we walk people through that process. Part of it, how

799
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: it first starts, is assessing the needs in your community. Right,

800
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: What do people think they need to call the police for.

801
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: What we find out when people assess those needs is

802
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: that those the police usually don't solve those needs, right,

803
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: or they're not worth bringing somebody who with a gun

804
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: in right um or that the needs can be taken

805
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: care of inside the community, right. And so one of

806
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: the needs is um. You know we have we have

807
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 1: people on our blocks, we mental health issues, right, UM,

808
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: there's ways that we can address that without the police.

809
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: So we have people go through with their community and

810
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: talk to your neighbors, what are the needs and to

811
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: me that you would say you need police for and

812
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: then assess are there ways that you guys can fill it?

813
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: How would how would you accomplish a thirty day ban

814
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: on calling the police, um and then actually doing it

815
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: and seeing what a police free block would look like

816
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: for you, because we know that for black and block people,

817
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: those for people with mental illnesses. UM. As soon as

818
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: you involve the police in the situation, you're putting that

819
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: person's life in danger. And most of the things that

820
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: we call the police for are not something that if

821
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: you really press this on that we would say is

822
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: worth somebody's life. Even if you know your your car

823
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: got stolen, right that's you know, people will say, yes,

824
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to call the police on that. UM. But

825
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: if you asked this person's eye because they stole your car,

826
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: you probably say no. I would hope you reasonable person

827
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: hopefully would say no. Yeah. I think that's such a

828
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: good hope, But you never know. In the United States.

829
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: But but you know you can walk through and say, okay,

830
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: what do we do if somebody's car gets well, you

831
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: can file the police to report separately, and there's a

832
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: non emergency with your community, right And a lot of

833
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: folks don't know that there's a non emergency line you

834
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: can call it to that doesn't put someone else's life

835
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: in danger. I think that's a really great example. Thank

836
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing. Yeah, I have one last question,

837
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: so I'm just curious if you could talk me through

838
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: what has the response been like for a project like

839
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: safety Pinbox. I certainly have seen instances of people kind

840
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: of using this political and social climate that we are

841
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: in too. I don't want to say any names, but

842
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: collect money for perhaps where that money than goes someplace

843
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: where you're not actually sure or sure where it goes

844
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: or what helps name names on the names some names,

845
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: I just I just don't want to get a million

846
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: teeth on Twitter being like how dare you slam already?

847
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: If you could talk me through what has been the

848
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: response that's um to Safety Pinbox. It was interesting people

849
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: that people have issues with us that they don't have

850
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: with major organs that actually do squander money. Um. So

851
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: we had all these like critiques and stuff literally the

852
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: day we watched you know, before we had even sent

853
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: out any products, particularly from white men. People are very

854
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: concerned about like what are you doing with all the money,

855
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: like you guys shouldn't pay yourself to all you should

856
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: give orgs. And we were very upfront where is this.

857
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: We're not a nonprofit like boom um, so there's a

858
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: lot of welfare queen trope stuff happening, you know where

859
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: people basically were like, actually, we were going to squal

860
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: under the money. And so it was funny people would

861
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: be like, oh, well you need to give to the

862
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: A c l U, who you know is trash now

863
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: or um, oh you should give all of your proceeds

864
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter. I was like, that's interesting, do

865
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: you know where their money goes? And then people don't

866
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: write um. And so there was all of this scrutiny

867
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: on us precisely because we made the decision to be

868
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: a business instead of a nonprofit and also because people

869
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: white follows expect black folks to educate them on their

870
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: own problems for free, which is slavery, like like if

871
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: you need like to work for you for free to

872
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,959
Speaker 1: unlearn the white fims that you learn so you could

873
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: get me to work for you for free. What what

874
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: are we? What are we? What are we doing here?

875
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: You know? It was so ridiculous. But I'll say we

876
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: got tons, We got multiple hit pieces written on us

877
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: black quote unquote liberal white dudes who had freaking Patreon

878
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: accounts of like tens of thousands of dollars. Right. But

879
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: but I will say that all changed the day we

880
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: started giving out money, which was months too. And it

881
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: was interesting as we got covered by some pretty mainstream

882
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: UM outlets and publications, particularly when we had a really

883
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: good piece published in New York Magazine and in My

884
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: Mad which was one of the first outlets to do

885
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: a hit piece on us, actually two months before that.

886
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: Then you see, all of a sudden, now that we've

887
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: become respectable to the white people, and like we've been

888
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: assigned by all these white women and like these different platforms,

889
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, people who did not uh

890
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: mess with us at all at the beginning, did not

891
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: support us at all the beginning, like oh, now we

892
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: want to partner, Now we want to you know, do

893
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: this and that, because now they think that we can

894
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: give them some form of credibility. But we just tried

895
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: to say true to our visions at the very beginning,

896
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: and we've given out over a hundred thousand dollars directly

897
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: two black women congratulates since the beginning of Genuinely, that's incredible.

898
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: I don't understand how people get off on, you know,

899
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: saying that you should be doing this for in a

900
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: nonprofit way. I'm thrilled that the value you are providing

901
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,959
Speaker 1: is valued by this economy, right, that it's actually producing money,

902
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: and that you're putting that money where you see fit,

903
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: because that's how it should be. That to me is

904
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: like capitalism doing its job for a change, right. And

905
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: the thing is, I've never seen anybody ask what Tim

906
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: Wise does with his speaking, right. So it was mostly

907
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: white men who came after us, and then are our

908
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 1: membership is mostly white women, but also you know pancer

909
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: Nation people. When we launched, people were trying to share

910
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: O thank you Can box stuff and pant Suit Nation

911
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: and admins kept deleting the post and then said that

912
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: they wouldn't allow post because we weren't telling a quote

913
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: unquote story, right, But yet like they were publishing other

914
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 1: people's businesses and stuff like that. So we definitely got

915
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: resistance from all from all sides. But now that we're

916
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: more established, now that we've given out a certain amount

917
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: of money, UM, all of us sudden we've become legitimate

918
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: and certain people's lives, which is really interesting for me

919
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: as an activist who was in this movement for years

920
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: right before and very controversially so UM before take Pin

921
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: Blocks ever happened, there are a lot of people who

922
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 1: refused to recognize my work, particularly was calling out Bernie

923
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: Sanders and how that changed conversations within the presidential election,

924
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: who all of a sudden now want to get on

925
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: board because UM our work has been credentialed in a

926
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: certain way by white people, white Organs, and white women.

927
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: And so we definitely see our work through stafety Finboch.

928
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: And we also recognize that the activists that we support

929
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: are people that UM folks with folks wouldn't support regularly anyways.

930
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: So we see ourselves the sort of a buffer to

931
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: collect white folks money UM and give it to people

932
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: that they normally wouldn't support. That you're not going to

933
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: see on the TV that doesn't have sense of Twitter followers,

934
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: but that's doing great work in their community. That's amazing MERSA. Um, So,

935
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: where can our listeners find out more about what you're doing? Yeah,

936
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: you can go to www. At Safety pin Box dot com.

937
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: Like you said, we have UM the sample task. You

938
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: can sign up for a subscription there. We have some

939
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 1: other really cool things. We have our Safety pins Box

940
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 1: Kids Theories, which is an eight week series all about

941
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: how to talk to your kids about race. It's like phenomenal.

942
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: And then we also have UM right now, Are Not

943
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: My President Boss, because there's been a lot of conversation

944
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: around how do we respond to hate crimes and the

945
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: naxies marching on the streets and you know Trump presidency.

946
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: You can go check out Are Not My President Box

947
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: and it's that's the box that includes all of the

948
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: information around creating safety plans and it also has a

949
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: really cool task in there about how do you talk

950
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: to your kids about Trump and what Trump's presidency means.

951
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: So there's tons of resources and content UM on our website.

952
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: When we come back, we're gonna talk through some more

953
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: ways that you can really be a good ally and

954
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: help take down this thing called white supremacy. And we're

955
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: back and now I want to talk a little bit

956
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: more about how white women can take some more responsibility

957
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: for ending white supremacy and really kind of owning that

958
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: it's a thing that we live with. So first, again,

959
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: I know this might be hard to do because it

960
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: requires some looking within and some introspection, but really acknowledge

961
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: your own complicity. Uh, white women voted for Trump. I

962
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 1: know we say this time and time and time again,

963
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: but I think that's a really, really really important number,

964
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 1: and it's a really really important thing to just own

965
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: and sit with. And I think there's this immediate temptation

966
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: for white folks who didn't vote for Trump, for instance,

967
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: of which there are lots of us, to say, Yeah,

968
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: but I'm not one of those white women. I don't

969
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: even know those white women. I don't even hang out

970
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: with those white women, or I don't even understand those

971
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 1: white women. How can I begin to take responsibility for that?

972
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: And then I would argue, who better to persuade those

973
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: white women who have bought into this repackaged white supremacy

974
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: two point oh three point oh five point out wherever

975
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: we're at that is two thousand seventeen and help make

976
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: the connection for our fellow white folks between how marching

977
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: in the street with that tiki torch isn't all that

978
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: different than make America great again? Right? And I'm so

979
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up because I can't do that, right,

980
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 1: I'm a black woman. I will have no I don't

981
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: feel like I would have any chance of converting women

982
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, someone who presents white is going to

983
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: have a much easier time than me, black woman with

984
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: natural hair, who's you know, wearing a hands off aside

985
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 1: a T shirt to convince them that they've that they've

986
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: got us, that they've gone down a bad path. And

987
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: not to mention you shouldn't have to because a minorities

988
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 1: are tired of fighting these fights and be the folks

989
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 1: who are being persecuted on the receiving end of injustice

990
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: is not on them to change the oppressor. And so

991
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: I think it really just lights a fire under my

992
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: butt to think of as a white woman, how can

993
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: I talk to white people more? Not just donating to causes,

994
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: although those are good things to do too, but not

995
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: just working with people of color, not just working on

996
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: behalf of and four those folks. How can I talk

997
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: to my relatives who voted for Trump, how can I

998
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: look inward into my community, into my neighborhood. Talking to

999
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: my lift driver on the way to the studio today

1000
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 1: about you know, well, why do you feel like the

1001
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement is racist? Tell me more about that,

1002
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: like why do you feel about having those conversations with

1003
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: other white folks? And I think that goes back to

1004
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: something that Marissa said when she mentioned one of the

1005
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 1: tips for this month was to if you're a white person,

1006
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: talk to the other white people in your neighborhood and

1007
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: get them to, you know, sign on to not calling

1008
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: the police. That the idea of how of having a

1009
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: white asking a white person to talk to another white

1010
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: person about white supremacy, that sounds really hard. That is

1011
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: a high ask. And I think if you aren't really

1012
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: dedicated to dismantling this and understanding how it shows up

1013
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: in our in our lives and in our spaces and

1014
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: in our world, it's going to take those hard asks right.

1015
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: Working with people of color and showing up as a

1016
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: woke ally probably feels like it feels it feels good

1017
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: talking to your racist auntie, who you've been, you know,

1018
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: spending years and years ignoring her racist jokes. At Thanksgiving

1019
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: for twenty years. That is hard. That is hard, definitely.

1020
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: And you know who can help is Jodi Pico, who

1021
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: you might know as being the kind of author of

1022
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: a good beach read that You're Racist. Auntie enjoys reading

1023
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: at the beach. Uh. She also, in addition to her

1024
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,479
Speaker 1: incredibly lovely I think it's mostly fiction writing that she's

1025
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: been a part of. Pennd This op ed for Time Magazine,

1026
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: which will make sure to include in the show notes.

1027
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: And let me tell you, Jodi Pico demonstrates and sort

1028
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: of models what it looks like to be a white

1029
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: woman talking to other white folks about her own revelations

1030
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: on race and coming to not just confront racism but

1031
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: also acknowledge her complicity and her responsibility and changing it.

1032
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: In that time I ed, she wrote, Here's the grievous

1033
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: mistake I had made for the majority of my life.

1034
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: I assumed that racism is synonymous with bias. Yet you

1035
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: could take every white supremacist and ship them off to Mars,

1036
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: and you'd still have racism in the world. That's because

1037
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: racism is systemic and institutional, but it is both perpetuated

1038
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: and dismantled in individual acts. So what she really goes

1039
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: on to elaborate is the systemic ways in which white

1040
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: privilege is a thing, which is the basic baseline. We

1041
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: should do a whole episode on my privilege. That's really

1042
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: the baseline conversation. We have to meet folks where they

1043
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: are on this sometimes and say, as she goes on

1044
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: to right, it's more challenging to see the tail winds

1045
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: of racism, not the overt stuff, but quote the ways

1046
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: that being white makes it easier to achieve success. We

1047
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: like to believe that we succeed because we worked hard

1048
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: or because we were smart. It's harder to wrap our

1049
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: heads around the idea that the reason we might have

1050
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: a job or have gained admission to a college is

1051
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: a direct result of the fact that a person of

1052
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: color was never given that opportunity. I think that's so so,

1053
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: so powerful. Um again, when you look back at that

1054
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: racism index, saying things like, you know, they just need

1055
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: to work harder, I worked hard, or you know things

1056
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: like that, she that that really nails why those comments

1057
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: don't actually get at the root of what white supremacy

1058
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: actually is. That systemic acknowledge man, of yes, it's at

1059
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: the core of our history in the United States of America.

1060
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: It's also pervasive and lots of ways across the globe.

1061
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: And these are systemic, sort of baked in institutions that

1062
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: we can also make changes on in an individual basis.

1063
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: But instead of you know, white folks focusing on helping

1064
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: people of color, we got to turn around and talk

1065
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: to our fellow white folks if we're going to really

1066
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: dismantle the institutions of white supremacy totally. Because look at again,

1067
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: look at Charlotte's Ville. You know, I am just so

1068
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: struck by that interview with the you know, Charlotteville's Charlotte

1069
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: wille Killer's mother, where it was just clear she had

1070
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: not really checked in about what kind of toxic stuff

1071
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: her son was up to. And so talk to your son's,

1072
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: talk to your daughters, talk to your cousins and your

1073
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: your you know, your husband's. Don't just let something toxic

1074
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: bester within them because it's uncomfortable to talk about. Right,

1075
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: if we had experienced the same kind of tragedy except

1076
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: it was I don't know, a Muslim America in and

1077
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: instead of a car being driven into a crowd, it

1078
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: were an explosive device, we would be blaming his friends

1079
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: and family for not alerting the police, but instead, because

1080
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: this is a white perpetrator and because this is an

1081
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: act of racist violence, we don't treat that like the

1082
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: terrorism that it really is. And that's that's a problematic

1083
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: framing in my opinion, that has everything to do with race.

1084
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 1: And that's really quite similar this idea that letting something

1085
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 1: like racism fester because you assume it's benign or you

1086
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: assume it's not going to kill someone or harm someone else,

1087
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: is really problematic and it's something that April Harder, a

1088
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,919
Speaker 1: licensed counselor and social worker, wrote about on medium dot

1089
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: com when she wrote the blog post how America spreads

1090
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: the disease that is racism by not confronting racist family

1091
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: members and friends. She writes, racism is complex and scope

1092
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: because it is both a mental illness and a value.

1093
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: In other words, it is a valued shell tered and

1094
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: protected mental illness. One might even say it has been

1095
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: incubated and allowed to fester throughout the course of American history.

1096
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: She goes on to write, quote, like all illnesses, it

1097
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: needs to be treated in order for it to be cured.

1098
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: The problem is that we don't see racism as a

1099
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: problem because we don't see it for what it is,

1100
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: an infectious disease that has been an epidemic plaguing our nation.

1101
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: I think that's so fascinating. I can't help but be

1102
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: reminded of this movie from a few years ago, American

1103
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: History X. The guy who is completely a skinhead, right Nancy,

1104
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: you know the works and he does all this awful

1105
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: stuff throughout the movie, and then at the very end

1106
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: of the movie you realize that the early seed of

1107
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: his ideology is that his dad, who is presented as

1108
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: the stand up, great guy, firefighter, community guy father, would

1109
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: make comments about black people at the dinner table, casual things,

1110
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: and that seeing that that was an it's implied that

1111
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: that was an early seed that kind of grew into

1112
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: something that isn't a comment here or there, but that

1113
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: was really violent. I'm so glad you brought that up,

1114
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: because it's about his rehabilitation and then his return home, right,

1115
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: and it is treated like going to rehab it's treated

1116
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: as that kind of a thing where it's not you know,

1117
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: it's not like, oh, I became friends with a black

1118
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: guy and then it went away. It's like, no, it's

1119
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 1: a it's a the same way that you would have

1120
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: to get something out of your system through work. That's

1121
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: what it's presented as. It's getting rid of hate, right,

1122
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: and that is admirable work. Um that a lot of

1123
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: folks are doing, a lot of folks need to do. So.

1124
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: A couple other quick takeaways, some actionable items for especially

1125
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: the white women listening who are saying, Okay, I get it.

1126
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: I have to talk to my uncomfortable relatives who don't

1127
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about race. But that's part of my

1128
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: job here as a white woman to dismantle white supremacy.

1129
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: What else can we do? There's an article that I

1130
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: also want to just shed light on by Courtney ariel

1131
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: Uh called for our white friends desiring to be allies,

1132
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: and she just has some really quick, great tips that

1133
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: I found very instructive. And the first was for white

1134
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: women to listen more and talk less. And the way

1135
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: I like to think of this is to pass the mike.

1136
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: I love that because, again, like we were talking about before,

1137
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 1: it can be a weird balance of either making it

1138
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: all about you and your emotions and spraying your emotions everywhere,

1139
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: or just feeling really resigned, like I'm so sad. What

1140
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: can I do. Both of those are a way of

1141
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: sort of making it about you. But it's important is

1142
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: to not make it about you. Yeah, and the first

1143
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 1: temptation might be to go on Facebook and screen virtually right,

1144
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: to just share every you know, every thought and feeling

1145
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 1: and tweet about it and write your own peace. But

1146
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: there's also a really strong case for saying this is

1147
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: not a moment for you and your brand to capitalize on, which,

1148
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: as a business owner, was challenging to figure out exact

1149
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: how do we respond to these kinds of crises without

1150
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: saying that this is our issue and that we're the

1151
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: experts on this. It's about passing the mic and making

1152
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: sure that we're being megaphones, especially for women of color,

1153
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: people of color who are doing this work every single day,

1154
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 1: not just when tragedy strikes, and not just when it's

1155
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: all in the headline, and not just when it's in style.

1156
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: Because it's in style to call out Nazis right now,

1157
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: it's in style to call out white supremacist right now.

1158
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: It hasn't always been so fun, it hasn't always been

1159
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: in vogue. You know. I've spent a good portion of

1160
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: my life being called things like a social justice warrior,

1161
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: or you know the PC police, or you know several

1162
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: other things that I can't say on this show. It

1163
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: hasn't always been a cool thing to stand up against

1164
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: racism and against white supremacy, and I think it's a

1165
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: good thing to do, but I think it's worth noting

1166
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: that if you do things when it's easy to do,

1167
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 1: you should examine that other ways to be a true ally,

1168
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: other than simply not wanting to be racist, which coordinar

1169
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: Arials writes, thank you for that, by the way, but

1170
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: she says being an ally requires you to educate yourself

1171
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: about systemic racism in this country. So if you are

1172
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: looking for a reading list, if you are aware that

1173
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,959
Speaker 1: you're unaware of this stuff, here's a great reading list

1174
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: that Cornarial actually gives you some some literature to start on.

1175
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: And I'm sure, I'm sure we have stuff to add

1176
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: to this, but Michelle Alexander's The New Jim crow Tony

1177
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: you see, Coats is Between the World and Me and

1178
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: Claudia ran Keyes Citizen. There are really so many other

1179
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: great books and articles that will link to in the

1180
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: notes below, but we encourage you to use your voice

1181
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: and influence to direct folks to educating themselves and to

1182
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: do the hard work of educating ourselves too. Yeah, I

1183
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: think it's hard work. I think it's important to do.

1184
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:47,959
Speaker 1: Just one note, when you get really fired out about

1185
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: all the all these things you're reading, don't reach out

1186
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: to your friend of color unless their job is working

1187
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: in an anti oppression space. Don't reach out to your

1188
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: friend of color who doesn't work in the anti oppression

1189
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: space and asked them to do this labor of helping

1190
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: you unpack this for you. This is something that a

1191
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 1: journey that folks should be taking on their own, finding resources, googling,

1192
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: using resources that are out there like safety pin box

1193
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: or other anti oppression trainings. But don't put this on

1194
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: your black friend because they're probably going through enough right now. Yeah,

1195
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: and they're probably asked to do this more than they

1196
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: should be. So just remember it's not on minorities to

1197
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: solve and end white supremacy. And the other way I

1198
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 1: thought that we as well meaning white folks can be

1199
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: let us stray sometimes. It's something that Courtney points out

1200
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: in this article, which is the chiming in on social media.

1201
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: The idea that she writes for one out of every

1202
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: three opinions or insights shared by a person of color

1203
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: in your life. Try to resist the need to respond

1204
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 1: with a better or different insight about something that you've

1205
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: read or listened to as it relates to their shared opinion.

1206
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes is your unique take isn't all that helpful or appreciated?

1207
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: I would say I've definitely had times where you know,

1208
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'm trying to have a dialogue with

1209
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: other women of color and very well meaning, but like

1210
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: a little unappreciated. It's like, oh, well, that's just like

1211
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and we're all thinking, oh, well, thanks

1212
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 1: for your insight. Um, just be a little poinful. Yeah, listen,

1213
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard. I get it. I'm the queen

1214
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 1: interrupter over here. I get it. The instinct can be

1215
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 1: to jump in with your opinion and your thought and

1216
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: you're sharing sometimes asking questions and listening intently and just

1217
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: letting yourself learn is the best possible thing you can do.

1218
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: And it's a it's a balancing act because it can

1219
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: feel even writing this episode, coming up with this topic

1220
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 1: saying wait a second. At one point, very early on

1221
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 1: after charlotte'svill I asked my Twitter followers what do you

1222
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: think white women's involvement or white people's involvement in dismantling

1223
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: white supremacy should be Because for a second I was

1224
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:04,759
Speaker 1: hearing and reading white women, this is not your time

1225
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: to make this your moment to speak out, And I'm thinking,

1226
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 1: is it not, like, should I not take the initiative

1227
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,440
Speaker 1: on this? But I ended up coming to the conclusion

1228
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to capitalize on but we sure

1229
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 1: as hell are going to take the time, and I'm

1230
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: I want to make it my prerogative to cover this

1231
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: topic thoroughly. Well, I think you just you just highlighted

1232
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: kind of an agual debate of do we uplift women

1233
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: of color and folks of color or do we speak out?

1234
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 1: Do white women speak out themselves? I think that's I

1235
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: think I see a lot of folks wrestling with that.

1236
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: I don't have the answer. I think it's about a balance.

1237
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: I think it's about speaking up and using your white

1238
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: privilege when you can in a way that it's not

1239
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: making it about you, that is not capitalizing, that's certainly

1240
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,719
Speaker 1: not taking money because of the suffering of folks of color.

1241
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: Um that should go what that's saying. But in a

1242
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 1: way that is, that is brave, and that is real

1243
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: and authentic. I also think that they're not mutually exclusive.

1244
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: I always like to say lift as you climb, which

1245
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: is a phrase that's been involved in the social justice movement,

1246
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: especially on behalf of women of color for a long time.

1247
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 1: I learned when I saw it imprinted on a banner

1248
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 1: at the National Museum of African American History and Culture

1249
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: here in d C. But lifting as you climb, to me,

1250
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 1: is about, yeah, do the work, make your voice heard,

1251
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: but make sure you're bringing women of color up with you,

1252
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: and you're make, you know, making sure that their voices

1253
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: are heard too. I think I dare to say that

1254
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: this podcast is a pretty fine example of that in action.

1255
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: I hope so, right, I hope so. I think so.

1256
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: I think we can always strive to continue to learn

1257
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 1: and go together. That's like our artificial motto. Now, these

1258
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,440
Speaker 1: are just some of the ways that you can take practical,

1259
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: instructive action to and white supremacy, and for us women

1260
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: in particular, to own the ways in which women have

1261
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: always been a part of white supremacy here in the

1262
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: United States and beyond. And I really want to thank

1263
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 1: you our listeners for leaning into the discomfort that can

1264
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,839
Speaker 1: be this topic, and for listening with hopefully open minds

1265
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: and hearts and understanding that it's our intention here at

1266
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you to not shy away from

1267
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: really tough, early complicated issues like this, and somehow hopefully

1268
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: package it together in a in a research driven and

1269
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: actionable snippet for you to to consume on your way

1270
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: to work or back. Yes, we want to hear from

1271
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: all of y'all out there, whether you're a white lady

1272
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 1: who's sort of grappling with this, whether you're a bet up,

1273
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: piste off person of color. Because I'm there with you

1274
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: much of the time, we want to hear from you.

1275
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: How has white supremacy played out in your life? What

1276
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: are some ways that you've been tackling it, How are

1277
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: you dealing with it? You can reach us on Instagram

1278
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 1: at stuff mom Ever Told You, on Twitter at mom

1279
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast, or via email at mom Stuff at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Four