WEBVTT - What It's Like to Be a Peacekeeper 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.040 Calls media. 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.560 Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.640 me James and I'm joined today by Kevin McDonald, who 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.400 previously served as a senior officer in the Irish Defense 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.760 Forces with Special Forces experience and has significant experience working 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.880 all over the world after that with the United Nations 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.880 and other organizations. And Kevin, welcome to the show. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:25.759 I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.120 Yeah, hopefully I've done a good job introducing you. I'm 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.560 always terrible at that. What we thought we talked about today, 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.839 Kevin is you have significant experience in Lebanon with UNIPHIL, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:40.120 and I think obviously when we've spoken about this before, 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:42.640 we've spoken about it from a sort of looking at 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.520 it from above strategic level. But what we've not spoken 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.600 about is what it looks like on the ground. So 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.560 hopefully you can give us some insight into that, especially 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.320 having been there both as like an enlisted soldier and 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.680 as an officer. I think can you explain at first? 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.040 I think there's been a lot of confusion or misinformation 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.200 about like how did these Irish if we look at 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.400 the Irish soldiers. That's so when you've obviously the most 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:12.560 experience with how do they end up deployed to Lebanon. 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.080 Is it a voluntary thing? Do they sort of say, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:16.600 put a hand up a set, I want to do this, 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.520 or is it your units going so you're going? 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.800 Okay? Well, just I suppose as a brief reminder to 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.759 your listeners, UNIFIL is the United Nations interim force in Lebanon, 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.200 and it's been interim since nineteen seventy eight. What it 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.320 started first, the Irish were one of the first countries 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.360 to sign up to deploy a battalion there, and we 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.080 had a battalion in Lebanon from nineteen seventy eight until 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:44.160 two thousand and In two thousand, the Israelis withdrew from 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.800 what they called a security zone about like a ten 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:52.440 kilometer buffer zone in southern Lebanon. So when they did 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.360 that and retreat to the frontier between the two countries 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.080 and departs it's battalion. Its left a few staff officers there, 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.560 but it didn't supply a battalion anymore. It was concentrating 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.160 on the missions in Syria and other places. And then 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.120 after the two thousand and six war, they were asked 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.639 to come back with a battalion and we've been there 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.560 ever since with an infantry battalion. In relation to your 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.639 question about it, is it a volunteer mission. It is 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.799 for most people. However, there have been people who will 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.320 be what's known as mandatory selected if they have certain 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.720 skill sets, whether it be a doctor, whether it be 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.160 whatever happens to be. If you know, if the army 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.600 can't get sufficient volunteers, then they will mandatory select. But 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.280 generally speaking, certainly in the early years, it was actually 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.680 quite difficult to get to become a volunteer for Leblon 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.720 because so many people wanted to go there because there is, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.360 you know, there's a bit of a financial incentive to 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.600 do that as well. I deployed there as a private 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.880 soldier in nineteen eighty four. I wasn't even twelve months 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.760 in the army at that stage, and within two months 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.160 I was made in acting corporal. So then I went 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.720 back as an office in nineteen ninety three where we 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.639 had a seven day war operational accountability. I was back 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.880 in ninety ninety six as an officer for another seven 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.280 day war operation Grapes of Wrath, and I ended up 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.480 there with my family as an unarmed minity observer in 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.000 two thousand and six for the a full thirty four 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:22.760 days of carnage. So, yeah, Lebanon was always well regarded 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.320 by the Arish Defense Forces because it did the couple 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.120 of things. It exposed troops to not just new cultures 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.920 and new areas, but it exposed them to danger as well. 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.760 And it also gave a chance for young NCOs and 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:42.320 young officers to physically lead their troops in a challenging environment, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.640 which you don't always get, you know, when you're at 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.320 home in Ireland or with the UK or whatever, you 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.760 don't always get that type of leadership experience. Plus you're 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.000 exposed to other cultures, whether it be the Nordic countries 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.120 or you know, you're exposed to different ways of operating. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:03.080 And it's been it's been a positive experience. But I 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.960 would find out that since we started there, we've lost 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.680 far to get troops killed in Lebanon. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.160 Yeah, it's because not an insignificant amount, especially considering like 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.440 the Irish Defense Forces are much smaller. When if people 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:16.720 are more familiar with the US military, right, which is 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.279 more than a million people, you know, forty eight is 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.520 a significant amount. You talked about how it exposes you 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.800 to look at other cultures and obviously one of them 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.240 is like the Lebanese people. But it's a very international deployment, right, 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.360 It's you're not just sort of sitting there on your 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.600 Irish base with Irish Defense Forces people and not interacting 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.320 with other militaries. So can you explain like some of 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.440 the other countries that have this long history there. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.839 When I went there in nineteen eighty four, there was 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:48.640 a battalion from Fiji, Finland, France, Ghana, ourselves, the Netherlands, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.279 Norway and Senegal. Wow, what a strength. At the time 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.760 of about six thousand, when I was there as a 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.520 non our military observer with UNSOL, which is a different mission, 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.480 the strength had dropped to two thousand and two thousand 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.200 and six with just two battalions that can name battalion 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.760 and in Indian battalion. And now essentially since after the 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.599 war in two thousand and six they started building up, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.479 there's probably about ten thousand troops there at the moment. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.599 There is some huge interaction at the battalion level between 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.960 different nations. In other words, a battalion will have its 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.000 own area of responsibility. It's responsible for patrolling in that area. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.520 Now with the likes of Nso you're much more exposed 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.479 to other armies, other nationalities because essentially, every time you 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.960 go patrolling, you can't, like two Irish officers couldn't patrol 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.440 together because if they see an infringement, whether it's a 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.839 firing close, whether it's one side sending drones into leven 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.680 and Ano the other side sending contucial rockets into Israel, 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.160 they're all violations, but to record it as a violation, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.040 you can't have two people from the same country. So 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.719 you're much more exposed, as I said, to foreign nationalities. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.800 Yeah, yeah, and there's certainly a lot of nation I 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.640 know the Indonesians are there now and the contiguent from 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.720 India when people talk about UNIFIL now a lot. You'll 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.480 see one of two accusations, right, You'll see that they're 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:17.000 either like they're as allies of Hezbollah in Lebanon, which 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.520 is not the case, or you'll see that they're there 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.279 as observers for the IDF or spies for the IDF. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.520 And like, obviously the fact that they're being accused of 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.240 both probably suggest that they are neither, because it be 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.600 fairly obvious if they were. But can you explain the 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.080 tripartite agreement. It seems to me like that might make 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.160 it difficult to do the things that uniform is supposed 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:37.560 to be doing. Is that fair? 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.160 I don't know. I think it's I think it's a 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.239 fair assessment. And if you're if both sides are complaining 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.320 about you, as you say, it probably does indicate that 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.680 you're you're at least doing something right. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:50.479 Yeah. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.040 So UNIFIL, it's a it's a peacekeeping mission, and so 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.200 there with the agreement of both parties. So in other words, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.919 the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have agreed that 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.919 UNIFIL be established in Lebanon. That's the first thing to 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.920 point out. The second thing, which is kind of contentious now, 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:10.960 especially with the extent of Hesbodus Tunnels is being exposed, 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.600 is that there's a lot of generally misinformed chatter about 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:20.080 what UNIFIL can and cannot do. So after the two 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.040 thousand and six War, Resolution seventeen oh one was enforced 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.280 or was brought in to develop more thoroughly the mandate 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.720 for what UNIFIL can and cannot do, and one of 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:36.800 the stated paragraphs is that UNIFIL will assist the Lebanese 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.120 armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.760 Blue Line and the Latanian River of an area free 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.880 of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:48.520 of the Government of Lebanon and of uniful deployed in 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.640 this area. And this is one of the failings. But 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.280 it should be pointed out that the responsibility of the 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.840 Laugh of the Lebanese armed forces to instigate it supported 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.240 by uniform, not unifil going in looking for arms and 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.560 weapons supported by the Laugh. It's the other way around. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.720 And one of the difficulties that you're always going to 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.200 have is that Lebanon has a divided society. Yeah, it's 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.760 an extremely rich and significant society, and I've lived there 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.320 quite a lot and have great respect for the people 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:21.680 and their traditions. However, the sectarianism is kind of baked 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.440 into how the government works, and that kind of works 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.200 as way down. So the president has to be a Marianite, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.680 Christian speak of the House has to be Shia, and 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.880 the Prime Minister has to be sunny. Yeah, And that 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.360 division was based on the last time there was a 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.720 census in Lebanon, which was nineteen thirty two, and since 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:44.400 then the dynamics have changed, so Hezbela is not just 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.360 a minitary organization. It's a political organization, and it's a 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:49.280 wealthier organization. 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:51.600 Yeah, I think a lot of people don't get that. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.800 And it's Shia and the majority of the people in 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.360 the south are Shia. And you know a lot of 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:02.120 them get their schooling and their medication from Hesbulla. So 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.600 it's not just a military organization. And there's various estimates, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.360 but you could be looking at them. But we say, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:14.400 prior to the present conflict, maybe seventy thousand Hesbla in 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.880 south of their root, shall we say. And some of 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:19.680 them are full time, some of them are part time, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:24.040 some of them are just sympathizers, helpers, friends. You know, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.440 it's difficult. And another factor that has proven extremely difficult 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.360 is so when unifim patrol with the laugh, there is 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.480 certain restrictions that even the laugh have in terms of 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:42.160 entering certain areas. And what has Bullah have done is 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:47.680 that they have designated certain nature reserves and generally speaking, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.320 the laugh won't go in there. And if the laugh 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.199 won't go win, the uniful can't goin right, So the 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:53.840 laugh for kind of you know that they have a 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.080 balancing act to do. In terms of retaining the trust 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.600 of the people in the south and also not causing 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.560 a sectarian divide within their own ranks. 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:03.400 Yeah, of course. 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.440 And also they have another problem in terms of equipment. 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.920 They're sort of relying on other countries, the UK, the US, 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.440 France to supply them with equipment. But like they have 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.360 no tanks. They have a few helicopters. They're very much 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.160 like there's no way they will take on has bullet no. 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.719 Way, right, yeah, or the IDEF. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.960 And UNIFOR itself is likely armed, you know, it's not 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.920 gone round in tanks or anything armored carriage. Yes. The 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.040 only time, the last time UNIFAL had tanks in Lebanon 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.360 was just after the war when the French deployed with 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.320 the Lea clerk tanks, right, which did not please the 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:42.040 locals because the clerk tanks driving up and down the 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.760 roads was nearly doing as much damage as the Markava 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:50.000 tanks during the war. And plus Lebanon isn't a very 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.160 tank friendly area to be operating against. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.319 What we said, right, yeah, was that when the IDF 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.360 came in and then Macava tanks and the French like 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.400 physically blocked them with their own tanks. I can't remember 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.520 when that was, and I'm. 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.640 Not aware of that, but it could will happen because 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:04.719 I know certainly back in the. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.679 Nineties that may have been. When it was when Israel was. 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.160 Operating the security Zone. We the Irish and our colleagues 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:16.080 from Finland and Norway had had numerous standoffs with Israelis 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:17.320 trying to enter certain villages. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.360 And yeah, but. 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.679 Yeah, I saw the day before yesterday the two I 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.600 think two bulldozers in the Marcava or I said, yeah, 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.679 two d nines broke down a U and watchtower and 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.920 a UN fence at the un UNIFIL headquarters in the Cura, 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:36.320 which is a few k from the frontier with Israel. Yes, 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.240 I should I note as well for your listeners that 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.720 Israel and Lebanon have been at a state of war 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.880 since nineteen forty eight. Yes, they've never had a seat 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:47.800 or a peace agreement, and. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.120 The Triparte Agreement is the only place where they actually meet, right. 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.920 Yeah, so there is a UNIFIL post a meeting normally 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.440 right at the frontier where you can cross between one 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.480 country and the other. And I keep using the word 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.360 frontier because it's not a border. It hasn't been officially demarketd. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.480 The blue line, which I mentioned earlier on simply verifies 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.439 that the IDF have withdrawn into Israel, but it's not 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.440 the border right however, going back to your point about 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.480 the Tripartheid Agreement, and that's where the senior Israeli officials 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.640 senior Lebanese officials, under the chairmanship of UNIFIL meat and 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:30.199 they discuss items of concern that maybe UNIFIL can help 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.160 or now between the two of them, and in twenty 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:38.480 twenty two they managed to organize a maritime boundary between 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.360 Lebanon and Israel, which was kind of fascinating because on 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.120 the western side of Lebanon and the northwesterns coast of 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.199 Israel the huge gas fields. So the two countries actually 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.840 they've agreed their maritime boundary under the auspices of UNIFIL. 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.840 They still haven't agreed their land. But it's the first 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.400 time that a peace keep mission has arranged and courage 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.599 developed and led successfully discussions about a maritime boundary. So 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.559 the uniform does have some successes. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.679 Yeah, yeah, no, I think it would be wrong to 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.599 over looks. We'll take a quick break for adverts and 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:28.000 we'll come back. We're back, And Kevin, you'd mentioned that 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.199 you were in Lebanon in two thousand and six. I 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:31.959 think you said you're an unarms observer at that time, 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:32.560 Is that right. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.320 Yeah, that's right. Yet, so one of the oldest missions 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.640 in the world is one, so the United Nations Truth 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:44.040 Supervisory Organization, and that essentially was established, I suppose after 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.240 the forty eight War, and it had well say, offices 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:54.640 and observers in Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. You 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.240 know that they were quite effective in certain ways, Like 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:02.480 certainly the eventual peace agreement between Egypt and Israel was 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.599 very much helped along by the presence of ONSO in 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:11.200 Cairo and Shamra Shaik. The dieasagreement between Jordan and Israel 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.520 again was very much assisted by ONSO. So they have 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.640 a kind of a fairly good track record. And what 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.680 they bring to the table is that first of all, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:26.480 they're unarmed military observers, which takes some of the sting 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.040 out of heaven. You know, a heavily armed guy with 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.880 a hell and there's and sunglasses walk around, you know that, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.280 and some armies, as you know, can tend to be 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.440 more intimidating than others in how they how they carry themselves. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.320 So I went there. I went to the region in 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.000 two thousand and five and I was working on the 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.080 occupied Golden Heights, living in the in Tiberias on the 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.680 Sea of Galilee with my wife and two kids who 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.280 then were four and five. And in February zero six 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.720 I was transferred to Lebanon and we were living in 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.560 the city of Tier. The kids were going to a 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:04.480 local English speaking Arab school and Lebanon was absolutely thriving. 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.880 It must happened. We had the kids in bear Rouge, 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.560 we had them and a man done in what they 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:15.040 run and my normal routine. We had four observation posts 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.440 along the frontier with with Israel, yeah staft by five 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.480 guys who spent a week seven days up there and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:21.920 then you come down for four or five and then 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.200 go back up again. And each team had its specific 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.800 area to operate with, and we say a specific battalion 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.400 that we would interact with. And also quite importantly, we 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.560 had liaison assistants who were locals like translators, but but 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.600 they're a lot more important than that. And based on 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.200 the sectarian nature of the area, you know, you'd always 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.440 have a Christian you'd always have a share, but you 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.040 could have the Drews. If you were further up to 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.960 the north, you could have suddenly. And each team had 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.720 four or five of these because we used to send 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.760 two patrols out each day. So we had huge interaction 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.840 with the locals and ARMERI, with the mayors and the muktar, 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.760 and we were very much a force multiplier for UNIFIL 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.400 because we could get information from people. You know, we 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.280 used to stop and have lunch in some of the 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.120 little restaurants and we were always talking to people, and 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.720 you know, it was the window down, waving out, having 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.120 a chat, learning a bit of Arabic, whereas Uniful by 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.160 its nature goes around in armor cars, right, and even 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:26.640 if you stop, when you get out and you take 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.880 off the sunglasses, people will just react differently. The two 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.480 guys with a local that they know in the car. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.480 Yeah, as about someone in full battle rattle again. 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.760 Now, we definitely were. But the war kicked off on 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.840 the twelfth of July two thousand and six and I 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.200 was I had done on patrol to pick up or 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:50.440 Christian liaison assistant in her village and literally we were 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.200 heading off on patrol and over the radio all stations 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.760 go to the nearest U went position immediately. The nearest 0:16:57.880 --> 0:16:59.960 U went position tours at the time was an inn 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.560 the platoon position on top of a hill. From my 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.879 past experience, I had reckoned that there was a bit 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.640 of stuff going on either in shade the farms, which 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:13.720 is a disputed area in the southeastern part of Lebanon, 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.120 up in the mountains. So I said to the guy 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:17.800 that was with me, I said, look, this could be 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:19.760 over a couple of hours. Let's go straight back to 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.479 our patrol base. And you know, we knew we had 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.199 a fool the facility, and we also knew we had 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.399 a good bunker in the place, so we had it 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.399 back at a fair agnuts, shall we say. And normally, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.280 when we would have two patrols out, there'd be one 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.399 guy left in the patrol base and he'd be responsible 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.359 for radio checks and all that kind of stuff. But 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.960 what we'd do is, when we were about maybe a 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:49.280 kilometer away, we would inform our headquarters in in the 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.400 Kura that were closing down at our final destination, which 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.200 would give this guy time to come out and unlock 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.399 the gate to let us in. And just as I 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.000 had transmitted that up on the ear and said don't 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.760 come in, don't come in, we're getting hit up. So 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.760 we're at that stage we will restigate, and about maybe 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.119 two kilometers away there was a huge idea of position 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:15.160 and they were just banging with pine fives and gpmg's 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.280 not directly at us, but kind of in the general area. 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.320 Yeah, explain those weapons systems for people who aren't familiar, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.879 like what's a GPMG If as somebody is not. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.560 Okay, sorry, So you've everyone's familiar with with, say in 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.000 AK forty seven or and then sixteen, which would be 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.920 known as small arms. In other words, that caliber is 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.680 five point five six or seven point six two. Then 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.840 you have medium machine guns which are generally belt fed, 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.439 and there are seven point six two yeah. And then 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.320 you have heavy machine guns, again belt fed, and they're 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.920 twelve point seven or fifty caliber. Yeah. So we were 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.760 getting a fair bit. But it took us maybe an 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.720 hour of listening to various news channels, both in Lebanon 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.880 and in Israel to realize that as we had carried 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.880 cross border attack hit up an idea of convoy kidnapped 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.200 two who were seriously injured and subsequently died and killed 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:12.159 initially four and then against their own orders and Israeli 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.720 mccalva went into Lebanon to have a kind of commanding 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.200 view over where they thought that Hespital were bringing these guys. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:24.080 Hesbala knew that that's what they do, and big anti 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.359 tank mind and killed four guys inside the Murcava. So 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.639 Israel had last eight and two kidnapped in the space 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.280 of maybe maybe an hour. So the reaction was was 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:43.720 it was fast and furious, and yeah, it took us 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.040 nearly six days to get our Lee as an assistant 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.720 back back to her village. It took the un nearly 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:52.640 two and a half weeks two of actually with the families, 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.520 because at that stage once it was a family mission, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.440 and where I was, I could see the jets dropping 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.679 bombs in to Tier, and my wife could look up 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.800 on the skyline knowing where I was and see the 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.719 same thing happening. I was sort of used to being 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.399 under fire, but it's a different thing to see your 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.480 family under fire as well. And eventually when the charter 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.280 the sort of a cruise liner from Cyprus to come 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.840 over and stand offshore and send in its lifeboats to 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.600 bring the families out. So when this has been planned 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:31.080 and so had try to organize that an armored convoy 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.240 would bring those onmos that were deployed on the four 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.680 posts down to tier to say goodbye. But where I was, 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.359 we were getting hammered with artillery fire and tank fire. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.040 So I was the only one with family that couldn't 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:44.879 get out. So when my wife and two kids that 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.240 were five and seven, that's fit, were getting into the 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.400 lifeboat to bring them out to the ship, I rang 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.399 her and I said, look, I'll see you want to 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.399 see which is not a great way to end the 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.600 family mission, let me tell you now. And then in 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:00.600 the space of the next three days, we had a 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.920 strength of fifty two officers and in about three days 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.840 we last over ten percent. We had one Italian captain 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.680 shot in the back. He's known a wheel chair. We 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:15.480 had another Australian captain seriously injured when the converse she 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.600 was in was I suppose target is probably the way 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.520 to explain it. But she she was thrown up against 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.200 the inside of the armored car and essentially her back 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.200 was broken. She was evacuated with my wife and kids, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.840 and then I think it was the day later or 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.240 two days later, the Israeli dropped the Jadam, which is 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.280 a bunker busted missile into the post, just up for me, 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.840 killing for very good friends of mine. So yeah, two 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.000 thousand and six was a bit rough. 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.280 Yeah, if you're comfortable, could we talk about that last 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.159 one a little bit, because I think it's one of 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.840 the ones that, like, there's no mistaking that un position, right, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.600 it's you don't and you don't accidentally disco dropping Jadam's 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.160 left right in center all over the place. 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.280 Like. The first thing I should say is that twenty 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.520 one years previously that observation post was completely destroyed, but 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:06.960 there was no one in it at the time. So 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.359