Speaker 1: Calls media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's
Speaker 2: me James and I'm joined today by Kevin McDonald, who
Speaker 2: previously served as a senior officer in the Irish Defense
Speaker 2: Forces with Special Forces experience and has significant experience working
Speaker 2: all over the world after that with the United Nations
Speaker 2: and other organizations. And Kevin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully I've done a good job introducing you. I'm
Speaker 2: always terrible at that. What we thought we talked about today,
Speaker 2: Kevin is you have significant experience in Lebanon with UNIPHIL,
Speaker 2: and I think obviously when we've spoken about this before,
Speaker 2: we've spoken about it from a sort of looking at
Speaker 2: it from above strategic level. But what we've not spoken
Speaker 2: about is what it looks like on the ground. So
Speaker 2: hopefully you can give us some insight into that, especially
Speaker 2: having been there both as like an enlisted soldier and
Speaker 2: as an officer. I think can you explain at first?
Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of confusion or misinformation
Speaker 2: about like how did these Irish if we look at
Speaker 2: the Irish soldiers. That's so when you've obviously the most
Speaker 2: experience with how do they end up deployed to Lebanon.
Speaker 2: Is it a voluntary thing? Do they sort of say,
Speaker 2: put a hand up a set, I want to do this,
Speaker 2: or is it your units going so you're going?
Speaker 3: Okay? Well, just I suppose as a brief reminder to
Speaker 3: your listeners, UNIFIL is the United Nations interim force in Lebanon,
Speaker 3: and it's been interim since nineteen seventy eight. What it
Speaker 3: started first, the Irish were one of the first countries
Speaker 3: to sign up to deploy a battalion there, and we
Speaker 3: had a battalion in Lebanon from nineteen seventy eight until
Speaker 3: two thousand and In two thousand, the Israelis withdrew from
Speaker 3: what they called a security zone about like a ten
Speaker 3: kilometer buffer zone in southern Lebanon. So when they did
Speaker 3: that and retreat to the frontier between the two countries
Speaker 3: and departs it's battalion. Its left a few staff officers there,
Speaker 3: but it didn't supply a battalion anymore. It was concentrating
Speaker 3: on the missions in Syria and other places. And then
Speaker 3: after the two thousand and six war, they were asked
Speaker 3: to come back with a battalion and we've been there
Speaker 3: ever since with an infantry battalion. In relation to your
Speaker 3: question about it, is it a volunteer mission. It is
Speaker 3: for most people. However, there have been people who will
Speaker 3: be what's known as mandatory selected if they have certain
Speaker 3: skill sets, whether it be a doctor, whether it be
Speaker 3: whatever happens to be. If you know, if the army
Speaker 3: can't get sufficient volunteers, then they will mandatory select. But
Speaker 3: generally speaking, certainly in the early years, it was actually
Speaker 3: quite difficult to get to become a volunteer for Leblon
Speaker 3: because so many people wanted to go there because there is,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a bit of a financial incentive to
Speaker 3: do that as well. I deployed there as a private
Speaker 3: soldier in nineteen eighty four. I wasn't even twelve months
Speaker 3: in the army at that stage, and within two months
Speaker 3: I was made in acting corporal. So then I went
Speaker 3: back as an office in nineteen ninety three where we
Speaker 3: had a seven day war operational accountability. I was back
Speaker 3: in ninety ninety six as an officer for another seven
Speaker 3: day war operation Grapes of Wrath, and I ended up
Speaker 3: there with my family as an unarmed minity observer in
Speaker 3: two thousand and six for the a full thirty four
Speaker 3: days of carnage. So, yeah, Lebanon was always well regarded
Speaker 3: by the Arish Defense Forces because it did the couple
Speaker 3: of things. It exposed troops to not just new cultures
Speaker 3: and new areas, but it exposed them to danger as well.
Speaker 3: And it also gave a chance for young NCOs and
Speaker 3: young officers to physically lead their troops in a challenging environment,
Speaker 3: which you don't always get, you know, when you're at
Speaker 3: home in Ireland or with the UK or whatever, you
Speaker 3: don't always get that type of leadership experience. Plus you're
Speaker 3: exposed to other cultures, whether it be the Nordic countries
Speaker 3: or you know, you're exposed to different ways of operating.
Speaker 3: And it's been it's been a positive experience. But I
Speaker 3: would find out that since we started there, we've lost
Speaker 3: far to get troops killed in Lebanon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because not an insignificant amount, especially considering like
Speaker 2: the Irish Defense Forces are much smaller. When if people
Speaker 2: are more familiar with the US military, right, which is
Speaker 2: more than a million people, you know, forty eight is
Speaker 2: a significant amount. You talked about how it exposes you
Speaker 2: to look at other cultures and obviously one of them
Speaker 2: is like the Lebanese people. But it's a very international deployment, right,
Speaker 2: It's you're not just sort of sitting there on your
Speaker 2: Irish base with Irish Defense Forces people and not interacting
Speaker 2: with other militaries. So can you explain like some of
Speaker 2: the other countries that have this long history there.
Speaker 3: When I went there in nineteen eighty four, there was
Speaker 3: a battalion from Fiji, Finland, France, Ghana, ourselves, the Netherlands,
Speaker 3: Norway and Senegal. Wow, what a strength. At the time
Speaker 3: of about six thousand, when I was there as a
Speaker 3: non our military observer with UNSOL, which is a different mission,
Speaker 3: the strength had dropped to two thousand and two thousand
Speaker 3: and six with just two battalions that can name battalion
Speaker 3: and in Indian battalion. And now essentially since after the
Speaker 3: war in two thousand and six they started building up,
Speaker 3: there's probably about ten thousand troops there at the moment.
Speaker 3: There is some huge interaction at the battalion level between
Speaker 3: different nations. In other words, a battalion will have its
Speaker 3: own area of responsibility. It's responsible for patrolling in that area.
Speaker 3: Now with the likes of Nso you're much more exposed
Speaker 3: to other armies, other nationalities because essentially, every time you
Speaker 3: go patrolling, you can't, like two Irish officers couldn't patrol
Speaker 3: together because if they see an infringement, whether it's a
Speaker 3: firing close, whether it's one side sending drones into leven
Speaker 3: and Ano the other side sending contucial rockets into Israel,
Speaker 3: they're all violations, but to record it as a violation,
Speaker 3: you can't have two people from the same country. So
Speaker 3: you're much more exposed, as I said, to foreign nationalities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there's certainly a lot of nation I
Speaker 2: know the Indonesians are there now and the contiguent from
Speaker 2: India when people talk about UNIFIL now a lot. You'll
Speaker 2: see one of two accusations, right, You'll see that they're
Speaker 2: either like they're as allies of Hezbollah in Lebanon, which
Speaker 2: is not the case, or you'll see that they're there
Speaker 2: as observers for the IDF or spies for the IDF.
Speaker 2: And like, obviously the fact that they're being accused of
Speaker 2: both probably suggest that they are neither, because it be
Speaker 2: fairly obvious if they were. But can you explain the
Speaker 2: tripartite agreement. It seems to me like that might make
Speaker 2: it difficult to do the things that uniform is supposed
Speaker 2: to be doing. Is that fair?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think it's I think it's a
Speaker 3: fair assessment. And if you're if both sides are complaining
Speaker 3: about you, as you say, it probably does indicate that
Speaker 3: you're you're at least doing something right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So UNIFIL, it's a it's a peacekeeping mission, and so
Speaker 3: there with the agreement of both parties. So in other words,
Speaker 3: the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have agreed that
Speaker 3: UNIFIL be established in Lebanon. That's the first thing to
Speaker 3: point out. The second thing, which is kind of contentious now,
Speaker 3: especially with the extent of Hesbodus Tunnels is being exposed,
Speaker 3: is that there's a lot of generally misinformed chatter about
Speaker 3: what UNIFIL can and cannot do. So after the two
Speaker 3: thousand and six War, Resolution seventeen oh one was enforced
Speaker 3: or was brought in to develop more thoroughly the mandate
Speaker 3: for what UNIFIL can and cannot do, and one of
Speaker 3: the stated paragraphs is that UNIFIL will assist the Lebanese
Speaker 3: armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the
Speaker 3: Blue Line and the Latanian River of an area free
Speaker 3: of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those
Speaker 3: of the Government of Lebanon and of uniful deployed in
Speaker 3: this area. And this is one of the failings. But
Speaker 3: it should be pointed out that the responsibility of the
Speaker 3: Laugh of the Lebanese armed forces to instigate it supported
Speaker 3: by uniform, not unifil going in looking for arms and
Speaker 3: weapons supported by the Laugh. It's the other way around.
Speaker 3: And one of the difficulties that you're always going to
Speaker 3: have is that Lebanon has a divided society. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: an extremely rich and significant society, and I've lived there
Speaker 3: quite a lot and have great respect for the people
Speaker 3: and their traditions. However, the sectarianism is kind of baked
Speaker 3: into how the government works, and that kind of works
Speaker 3: as way down. So the president has to be a Marianite,
Speaker 3: Christian speak of the House has to be Shia, and
Speaker 3: the Prime Minister has to be sunny. Yeah, And that
Speaker 3: division was based on the last time there was a
Speaker 3: census in Lebanon, which was nineteen thirty two, and since
Speaker 3: then the dynamics have changed, so Hezbela is not just
Speaker 3: a minitary organization. It's a political organization, and it's a
Speaker 3: wealthier organization.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't get that.
Speaker 3: And it's Shia and the majority of the people in
Speaker 3: the south are Shia. And you know a lot of
Speaker 3: them get their schooling and their medication from Hesbulla. So
Speaker 3: it's not just a military organization. And there's various estimates,
Speaker 3: but you could be looking at them. But we say,
Speaker 3: prior to the present conflict, maybe seventy thousand Hesbla in
Speaker 3: south of their root, shall we say. And some of
Speaker 3: them are full time, some of them are part time,
Speaker 3: some of them are just sympathizers, helpers, friends. You know,
Speaker 3: it's difficult. And another factor that has proven extremely difficult
Speaker 3: is so when unifim patrol with the laugh, there is
Speaker 3: certain restrictions that even the laugh have in terms of
Speaker 3: entering certain areas. And what has Bullah have done is
Speaker 3: that they have designated certain nature reserves and generally speaking,
Speaker 3: the laugh won't go in there. And if the laugh
Speaker 3: won't go win, the uniful can't goin right, So the
Speaker 3: laugh for kind of you know that they have a
Speaker 3: balancing act to do. In terms of retaining the trust
Speaker 3: of the people in the south and also not causing
Speaker 3: a sectarian divide within their own ranks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3: And also they have another problem in terms of equipment.
Speaker 3: They're sort of relying on other countries, the UK, the US,
Speaker 3: France to supply them with equipment. But like they have
Speaker 3: no tanks. They have a few helicopters. They're very much
Speaker 3: like there's no way they will take on has bullet no.
Speaker 2: Way, right, yeah, or the IDEF.
Speaker 3: And UNIFOR itself is likely armed, you know, it's not
Speaker 3: gone round in tanks or anything armored carriage. Yes. The
Speaker 3: only time, the last time UNIFAL had tanks in Lebanon
Speaker 3: was just after the war when the French deployed with
Speaker 3: the Lea clerk tanks, right, which did not please the
Speaker 3: locals because the clerk tanks driving up and down the
Speaker 3: roads was nearly doing as much damage as the Markava
Speaker 3: tanks during the war. And plus Lebanon isn't a very
Speaker 3: tank friendly area to be operating against.
Speaker 2: What we said, right, yeah, was that when the IDF
Speaker 2: came in and then Macava tanks and the French like
Speaker 2: physically blocked them with their own tanks. I can't remember
Speaker 2: when that was, and I'm.
Speaker 3: Not aware of that, but it could will happen because
Speaker 3: I know certainly back in the.
Speaker 2: Nineties that may have been. When it was when Israel was.
Speaker 3: Operating the security Zone. We the Irish and our colleagues
Speaker 3: from Finland and Norway had had numerous standoffs with Israelis
Speaker 3: trying to enter certain villages.
Speaker 2: And yeah, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw the day before yesterday the two I
Speaker 3: think two bulldozers in the Marcava or I said, yeah,
Speaker 3: two d nines broke down a U and watchtower and
Speaker 3: a UN fence at the un UNIFIL headquarters in the Cura,
Speaker 3: which is a few k from the frontier with Israel. Yes,
Speaker 3: I should I note as well for your listeners that
Speaker 3: Israel and Lebanon have been at a state of war
Speaker 3: since nineteen forty eight. Yes, they've never had a seat
Speaker 3: or a peace agreement, and.
Speaker 2: The Triparte Agreement is the only place where they actually meet, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there is a UNIFIL post a meeting normally
Speaker 3: right at the frontier where you can cross between one
Speaker 3: country and the other. And I keep using the word
Speaker 3: frontier because it's not a border. It hasn't been officially demarketd.
Speaker 3: The blue line, which I mentioned earlier on simply verifies
Speaker 3: that the IDF have withdrawn into Israel, but it's not
Speaker 3: the border right however, going back to your point about
Speaker 3: the Tripartheid Agreement, and that's where the senior Israeli officials
Speaker 3: senior Lebanese officials, under the chairmanship of UNIFIL meat and
Speaker 3: they discuss items of concern that maybe UNIFIL can help
Speaker 3: or now between the two of them, and in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two they managed to organize a maritime boundary between
Speaker 3: Lebanon and Israel, which was kind of fascinating because on
Speaker 3: the western side of Lebanon and the northwesterns coast of
Speaker 3: Israel the huge gas fields. So the two countries actually
Speaker 3: they've agreed their maritime boundary under the auspices of UNIFIL.
Speaker 3: They still haven't agreed their land. But it's the first
Speaker 3: time that a peace keep mission has arranged and courage
Speaker 3: developed and led successfully discussions about a maritime boundary. So
Speaker 3: the uniform does have some successes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it would be wrong to
Speaker 2: over looks. We'll take a quick break for adverts and
Speaker 2: we'll come back. We're back, And Kevin, you'd mentioned that
Speaker 2: you were in Lebanon in two thousand and six. I
Speaker 2: think you said you're an unarms observer at that time,
Speaker 2: Is that right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Yet, so one of the oldest missions
Speaker 3: in the world is one, so the United Nations Truth
Speaker 3: Supervisory Organization, and that essentially was established, I suppose after
Speaker 3: the forty eight War, and it had well say, offices
Speaker 3: and observers in Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. You
Speaker 3: know that they were quite effective in certain ways, Like
Speaker 3: certainly the eventual peace agreement between Egypt and Israel was
Speaker 3: very much helped along by the presence of ONSO in
Speaker 3: Cairo and Shamra Shaik. The dieasagreement between Jordan and Israel
Speaker 3: again was very much assisted by ONSO. So they have
Speaker 3: a kind of a fairly good track record. And what
Speaker 3: they bring to the table is that first of all,
Speaker 3: they're unarmed military observers, which takes some of the sting
Speaker 3: out of heaven. You know, a heavily armed guy with
Speaker 3: a hell and there's and sunglasses walk around, you know that,
Speaker 3: and some armies, as you know, can tend to be
Speaker 3: more intimidating than others in how they how they carry themselves.
Speaker 3: So I went there. I went to the region in
Speaker 3: two thousand and five and I was working on the
Speaker 3: occupied Golden Heights, living in the in Tiberias on the
Speaker 3: Sea of Galilee with my wife and two kids who
Speaker 3: then were four and five. And in February zero six
Speaker 3: I was transferred to Lebanon and we were living in
Speaker 3: the city of Tier. The kids were going to a
Speaker 3: local English speaking Arab school and Lebanon was absolutely thriving.
Speaker 3: It must happened. We had the kids in bear Rouge,
Speaker 3: we had them and a man done in what they
Speaker 3: run and my normal routine. We had four observation posts
Speaker 3: along the frontier with with Israel, yeah staft by five
Speaker 3: guys who spent a week seven days up there and
Speaker 3: then you come down for four or five and then
Speaker 3: go back up again. And each team had its specific
Speaker 3: area to operate with, and we say a specific battalion
Speaker 3: that we would interact with. And also quite importantly, we
Speaker 3: had liaison assistants who were locals like translators, but but
Speaker 3: they're a lot more important than that. And based on
Speaker 3: the sectarian nature of the area, you know, you'd always
Speaker 3: have a Christian you'd always have a share, but you
Speaker 3: could have the Drews. If you were further up to
Speaker 3: the north, you could have suddenly. And each team had
Speaker 3: four or five of these because we used to send
Speaker 3: two patrols out each day. So we had huge interaction
Speaker 3: with the locals and ARMERI, with the mayors and the muktar,
Speaker 3: and we were very much a force multiplier for UNIFIL
Speaker 3: because we could get information from people. You know, we
Speaker 3: used to stop and have lunch in some of the
Speaker 3: little restaurants and we were always talking to people, and
Speaker 3: you know, it was the window down, waving out, having
Speaker 3: a chat, learning a bit of Arabic, whereas Uniful by
Speaker 3: its nature goes around in armor cars, right, and even
Speaker 3: if you stop, when you get out and you take
Speaker 3: off the sunglasses, people will just react differently. The two
Speaker 3: guys with a local that they know in the car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as about someone in full battle rattle again.
Speaker 3: Now, we definitely were. But the war kicked off on
Speaker 3: the twelfth of July two thousand and six and I
Speaker 3: was I had done on patrol to pick up or
Speaker 3: Christian liaison assistant in her village and literally we were
Speaker 3: heading off on patrol and over the radio all stations
Speaker 3: go to the nearest U went position immediately. The nearest
Speaker 3: U went position tours at the time was an inn
Speaker 3: the platoon position on top of a hill. From my
Speaker 3: past experience, I had reckoned that there was a bit
Speaker 3: of stuff going on either in shade the farms, which
Speaker 3: is a disputed area in the southeastern part of Lebanon,
Speaker 3: up in the mountains. So I said to the guy
Speaker 3: that was with me, I said, look, this could be
Speaker 3: over a couple of hours. Let's go straight back to
Speaker 3: our patrol base. And you know, we knew we had
Speaker 3: a fool the facility, and we also knew we had
Speaker 3: a good bunker in the place, so we had it
Speaker 3: back at a fair agnuts, shall we say. And normally,
Speaker 3: when we would have two patrols out, there'd be one
Speaker 3: guy left in the patrol base and he'd be responsible
Speaker 3: for radio checks and all that kind of stuff. But
Speaker 3: what we'd do is, when we were about maybe a
Speaker 3: kilometer away, we would inform our headquarters in in the
Speaker 3: Kura that were closing down at our final destination, which
Speaker 3: would give this guy time to come out and unlock
Speaker 3: the gate to let us in. And just as I
Speaker 3: had transmitted that up on the ear and said don't
Speaker 3: come in, don't come in, we're getting hit up. So
Speaker 3: we're at that stage we will restigate, and about maybe
Speaker 3: two kilometers away there was a huge idea of position
Speaker 3: and they were just banging with pine fives and gpmg's
Speaker 3: not directly at us, but kind of in the general area.
Speaker 2: Yeah, explain those weapons systems for people who aren't familiar,
Speaker 2: like what's a GPMG If as somebody is not.
Speaker 3: Okay, sorry, So you've everyone's familiar with with, say in
Speaker 3: AK forty seven or and then sixteen, which would be
Speaker 3: known as small arms. In other words, that caliber is
Speaker 3: five point five six or seven point six two. Then
Speaker 3: you have medium machine guns which are generally belt fed,
Speaker 3: and there are seven point six two yeah. And then
Speaker 3: you have heavy machine guns, again belt fed, and they're
Speaker 3: twelve point seven or fifty caliber. Yeah. So we were
Speaker 3: getting a fair bit. But it took us maybe an
Speaker 3: hour of listening to various news channels, both in Lebanon
Speaker 3: and in Israel to realize that as we had carried
Speaker 3: cross border attack hit up an idea of convoy kidnapped
Speaker 3: two who were seriously injured and subsequently died and killed
Speaker 3: initially four and then against their own orders and Israeli
Speaker 3: mccalva went into Lebanon to have a kind of commanding
Speaker 3: view over where they thought that Hespital were bringing these guys.
Speaker 3: Hesbala knew that that's what they do, and big anti
Speaker 3: tank mind and killed four guys inside the Murcava. So
Speaker 3: Israel had last eight and two kidnapped in the space
Speaker 3: of maybe maybe an hour. So the reaction was was
Speaker 3: it was fast and furious, and yeah, it took us
Speaker 3: nearly six days to get our Lee as an assistant
Speaker 3: back back to her village. It took the un nearly
Speaker 3: two and a half weeks two of actually with the families,
Speaker 3: because at that stage once it was a family mission,
Speaker 3: and where I was, I could see the jets dropping
Speaker 3: bombs in to Tier, and my wife could look up
Speaker 3: on the skyline knowing where I was and see the
Speaker 3: same thing happening. I was sort of used to being
Speaker 3: under fire, but it's a different thing to see your
Speaker 3: family under fire as well. And eventually when the charter
Speaker 3: the sort of a cruise liner from Cyprus to come
Speaker 3: over and stand offshore and send in its lifeboats to
Speaker 3: bring the families out. So when this has been planned
Speaker 3: and so had try to organize that an armored convoy
Speaker 3: would bring those onmos that were deployed on the four
Speaker 3: posts down to tier to say goodbye. But where I was,
Speaker 3: we were getting hammered with artillery fire and tank fire.
Speaker 3: So I was the only one with family that couldn't
Speaker 3: get out. So when my wife and two kids that
Speaker 3: were five and seven, that's fit, were getting into the
Speaker 3: lifeboat to bring them out to the ship, I rang
Speaker 3: her and I said, look, I'll see you want to
Speaker 3: see which is not a great way to end the
Speaker 3: family mission, let me tell you now. And then in
Speaker 3: the space of the next three days, we had a
Speaker 3: strength of fifty two officers and in about three days
Speaker 3: we last over ten percent. We had one Italian captain
Speaker 3: shot in the back. He's known a wheel chair. We
Speaker 3: had another Australian captain seriously injured when the converse she
Speaker 3: was in was I suppose target is probably the way
Speaker 3: to explain it. But she she was thrown up against
Speaker 3: the inside of the armored car and essentially her back
Speaker 3: was broken. She was evacuated with my wife and kids,
Speaker 3: and then I think it was the day later or
Speaker 3: two days later, the Israeli dropped the Jadam, which is
Speaker 3: a bunker busted missile into the post, just up for me,
Speaker 3: killing for very good friends of mine. So yeah, two
Speaker 3: thousand and six was a bit rough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're comfortable, could we talk about that last
Speaker 2: one a little bit, because I think it's one of
Speaker 2: the ones that, like, there's no mistaking that un position, right,
Speaker 2: it's you don't and you don't accidentally disco dropping Jadam's
Speaker 2: left right in center all over the place.
Speaker 3: Like. The first thing I should say is that twenty
Speaker 3: one years previously that observation post was completely destroyed, but
Speaker 3: there was no one in it at the time. So
Speaker 3: when it was rebuilt, it had the best bunker in Lebanon,
Speaker 3: so that they dug down first and had like a
Speaker 3: lot of the the bunkers currently in Lebanar are overgrown
Speaker 3: the bunkers, but this this was dug down into the
Speaker 3: into the rock essentially, and it had its roof was
Speaker 3: about a meter and a half of reinforced steel and
Speaker 3: concrete with the two story concrete building on top of it.
Speaker 3: So without doubt it was the best bunker in Lebanon.
Speaker 3: So that on that this this happened on the twenty
Speaker 3: fifth of July, and on that particular day we'd already
Speaker 3: lost the patrol base in Marouna rass when when Roberto
Speaker 3: was shot and they had I have to say, in fairness,
Speaker 3: but there's the liaison branch that kind of liaises between
Speaker 3: IDF and UNIFIL. Okay, and UNIFIL couldn't launch one of
Speaker 3: the telecopter to do a medevac. So the decision was
Speaker 3: made that the guys would get into an armored land
Speaker 3: cruiser and follow Israeli tank tracks back into Israel.
Speaker 2: Where they couldn't deconflict the air space to launch it
Speaker 2: or what was stopping them launching their helicopter to evacuate.
Speaker 3: There was too much connectic activity at that it wouldn't
Speaker 3: have been able to land.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: It was a battle long ago, okay. Yeah, So they
Speaker 3: essentially followed Israeli tank tracks that had come into Leblon.
Speaker 3: They followed those tank tracks back into Israel where they
Speaker 3: were met by an Israeli patrol and Roberto was flown
Speaker 3: through Rambam hospital. But yeah, going back to going back
Speaker 3: to kem on the twenty fifth of July, as we
Speaker 3: were all taking a fair bit of incoming where I was.
Speaker 3: It wasn't targeting, it was more sort of harassment fire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that.
Speaker 3: The house next door took three direct tank rounds and
Speaker 3: it was five meters away Jesus from post, and our
Speaker 3: post was tiny. Yeah, but in the guys in Kiam
Speaker 3: were taking a coupit of archarity. But there was a
Speaker 3: lot of air strikes coming in close. And again for
Speaker 3: your listeners, the UN has a designation what it calls
Speaker 3: a firing close. So we'll say a firing close from
Speaker 3: a sixteen is I don't know, something like fifty meters
Speaker 3: or something like that. Firing close from an artillery shell
Speaker 3: is five hundred meters, and a firing close from an
Speaker 3: aerial bomb is a kilometer. So if it lands within
Speaker 3: a kilometer, it's officially designated as a firing close, and
Speaker 3: it's recorded, and you know, both sides get you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's an official account of of what's happening. So
Speaker 3: the guys who are getting you know, a good few
Speaker 3: firings close from area bombs and there was three distinct
Speaker 3: waves of attack in the general area. So naturally Force
Speaker 3: Commander uniful chief of staff on so you win a
Speaker 3: quarters in New York were screaming at the Israelis, you know,
Speaker 3: stopped targeting disposition. What was it hes bull in the area?
Speaker 3: Of course there was keam is a hesbil a stronghold.
Speaker 3: But eventually that that evening the decision was made that
Speaker 3: the patrol buss is going to be evacuated. But because
Speaker 3: of the level of kinetic activity that evening, it was
Speaker 3: going to be done at first light next morning. And
Speaker 3: since the war started, we had all been on the
Speaker 3: twenty four to seven twenty minute radio so every twenty
Speaker 3: minutes you had to respond to a radio check. So
Speaker 3: the last transmission from the post was from a Canadian
Speaker 3: friend of mine X Special Forces. Really really cool and
Speaker 3: I could hear it in his voice. He was requested
Speaker 3: a luck in time for a firing close. It's danger close,
Speaker 3: it's danger close, get them to stop. And that was
Speaker 3: the last transmission. So when they miss the next radio check,
Speaker 3: we presumed another shell had come in and blown all
Speaker 3: the aerials of the of the building. So myself and
Speaker 3: a NAUSI feund the Mind requested permission to take our
Speaker 3: armored land cruiser and try and drive up and see
Speaker 3: what was happening. That was refused by UNIFIL, so they
Speaker 3: sent a patrol from the Indian battalion, which was kind
Speaker 3: of in fairness that it was nearer. So we switched
Speaker 3: on to their radio frequency to hear what they were saying,
Speaker 3: and so they approached the base. They had obviously had
Speaker 3: to break down the gate and said the base had
Speaker 3: taken a direct hit by an aerial bond. And at
Speaker 3: that stage we were still thinking maybe they're trapped under
Speaker 3: the rubble or something like that. And then the one
Speaker 3: of them transmitters, we have found the body of a
Speaker 3: Chinese officer, so we knew the four guys were were
Speaker 3: were killed. And the Indians found three bodies that night
Speaker 3: and brought them to the marchary in marja Un, which
Speaker 3: is a large Christian town. So the next morning there
Speaker 3: was I think five of us tasked to open identify
Speaker 3: the bodies.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the first guy was Chinese, was over pressure, killed time,
Speaker 3: so that that was an easy one to identify. The
Speaker 3: next guy had no arms, no legs, and wead Jesus
Speaker 3: and where his head should have been was the chain
Speaker 3: of a dog tag and I went down into his body.
Speaker 3: Paris Yeah, and the other guy yeah, so yeah, it
Speaker 3: was a difficult, difficult procedure, and then we had to
Speaker 3: try and arrange to get the bodies transferred into Israel
Speaker 3: to where you and colleagues from Jerusalem so they could
Speaker 3: go to Rambam Hospital and have have you know, a
Speaker 3: proper identification and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, eventually be returned to their families, I suppose.
Speaker 3: And that was a difficult procedure because where the Ideas
Speaker 3: said they could meet us, there was a minefield in
Speaker 3: front of us, and where we said we could meet them,
Speaker 3: they thought it was too exposed. So eventually we went
Speaker 3: into an old, small, tiny Indian platoon position and about
Speaker 3: one hundred meters away there was a gate that the
Speaker 3: Israelis used to you who's to come in a note
Speaker 3: when the security's own was there. But the area between
Speaker 3: the un position and the gate hadn't been mind swept
Speaker 3: in six years. But we had no choice. We couldn't
Speaker 3: bring the guys back to the march because I had
Speaker 3: resorted to using refrigerated trucks to store bodies because the
Speaker 3: marcher was full. Yeah, So there was there was an
Speaker 3: IDEF company there under a I think it was a
Speaker 3: full brigadier and there's a war going on, naturally, Yeah,
Speaker 3: all the time, gunships and katouch's passing each other over
Speaker 3: our heads. So when we had the three lads transfer
Speaker 3: over to our colleagues fro Jerusalem, I stood in front
Speaker 3: of the Ideas Brigadier and I lined up all the
Speaker 3: UN troops and he says, we're not going to have
Speaker 3: a minute silence and memory of our friends who were
Speaker 3: murdered on the cause of peace, and no, having a
Speaker 3: having a minute silence in the middle of a battle
Speaker 3: is a odd experience. In fairness to this guy, he
Speaker 3: still to attention, And because I lived in Tiberias, I
Speaker 3: had a small bit of Hebrew and I went over
Speaker 3: afterwards and thanked them for hisp And we didn't find
Speaker 3: the fourth body on the left of the seas for Jesus. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's rough.
Speaker 2: Sorry, that's terrible to think about.
Speaker 3: So the obvious question is I know what the one
Speaker 3: you want to ask? Why? Yeah, And I should have
Speaker 3: said it at the start. Anything I say here, it's
Speaker 3: it's my personal opinion. So it can't be construed as
Speaker 3: being the views of the Irish Defense Forces. Yes, of course,
Speaker 3: are certainly not the views of the United Nations. They
Speaker 3: are my personal views. So you know, people should just
Speaker 3: take it that it's it's Kevin McDonald describing what happened
Speaker 3: to him and what his personal views on it are.
Speaker 3: So why did they do it? Well, I think there's
Speaker 3: a couple of things. Hubris is one. I think at
Speaker 3: that stage there they were like a schoolyard bully who
Speaker 3: got better and wanted to lash out of anything and everything.
Speaker 3: A second, probably more tactical reason is that the village
Speaker 3: of kim Is on a ridge, would say, at the
Speaker 3: end of the redge ridged closest to Israel, because it's
Speaker 3: only about four miles away, is where this op was.
Speaker 3: And that's the reason was there and between kem and
Speaker 3: we say, the frontier with Israel is the Hula Valley,
Speaker 3: which is the biggest maneuver space. If you want a
Speaker 3: maneuver armor and stuff into Lebanon with plenty of space,
Speaker 3: that's where you do it. In fact, decide it is
Speaker 3: an old Vichy French airfield from the Second World War,
Speaker 3: so it's low space, and I think they didn't want
Speaker 3: eyes on the ground seeing what they were doing. And
Speaker 3: like one of the things for military observers is you
Speaker 3: observe in your reports. That's your task. So was there
Speaker 3: hez Bulla in the area around the around the OPI
Speaker 3: yes there was. But as you probably know, if you
Speaker 3: want to attack troops in the open, you use airburst
Speaker 3: artillery shells, which the Israelis they did in nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: six when they fired fifteen of them into a UN
Speaker 3: battalion head quarters, killing one hundred and six leban These men,
Speaker 3: women and children. See cancelter shelter in the UN headquarters.
Speaker 3: But you don't fire a bunk or bust and missile
Speaker 3: into a UN post to attack Hesbula.
Speaker 2: The subtle difference, Yeah, there's a different Yeah. I suppose
Speaker 2: what people will ask is like, it's I think it's
Speaker 2: important to explain this from the point of view of
Speaker 2: someone on the ground. It's obviously UN troops are not
Speaker 2: there to fight. They're there to keep peace, but they
Speaker 2: are an armed presence, and so they'll wonder how or
Speaker 2: why the UN can or can't defend itself the uniform
Speaker 2: troops specifically in these positions. So, like, can you explain
Speaker 2: how your rules of engagement and how that works for
Speaker 2: from the sort of on the ground perspective.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the rules of engagement we said for a
Speaker 3: peacekeeper mission, like we pack on one side because they're unarmed,
Speaker 3: but for a peacekeeper mission. Yeah, So peacekeeping is generally
Speaker 3: based on three principles consent, impartiality, and the use of
Speaker 3: force in self defense of the mandate. So naturally, like
Speaker 3: the guys there at the moment aren't going to try
Speaker 3: and take on through or former KALFA tanks. First of all,
Speaker 3: they don't have the capability to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting Do they not have the guinances?
Speaker 2: That's fine? Do they have, for instance, javelin and things
Speaker 2: like that. Do they have those weapons systems available?
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what they have currently. Certainly we didn't have, Okay,
Speaker 3: and it wasn't ever going to be an issue because
Speaker 3: that's kind of not our job like that. The sole
Speaker 3: responsibility to protect the people of Leblon is the Lebanese government.
Speaker 3: Uniful is there to assist. It's not there to say, okay,
Speaker 3: you step back, you know, we stemmed up and protect you.
Speaker 3: That's not what Uniful or any peacekeeping mission. The only
Speaker 3: peacekeeping mission that eventually had an offensive capability built into
Speaker 3: its mandate was the mission that's now closing down in
Speaker 3: the DRC. The Democratic Republic of Congo and it's Monusco,
Speaker 3: and they specifically changed the mandate to include an offensive
Speaker 3: capability to go after the twenty three rebels in the
Speaker 3: Kivus in sort of the northeast. And when they did it,
Speaker 3: like you know, attack helicopters should forces a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was quite effective. But which kind of brings me
Speaker 3: to another point because I just last year a completed
Speaker 3: a Masters in Peace and Conflict Studies and mandates was
Speaker 3: the evolution of mandates is what I sort of looked
Speaker 3: at and haven't wrote bus mandates is all well and good,
Speaker 3: but the TCCs, the true contrip in countries, have to
Speaker 3: have the ability, the capability of the training and the
Speaker 3: will to carry out the robust nature of the mandate.
Speaker 3: So you know, we we were saying in Ireland paper
Speaker 3: never refuses ink. You can put whatever you want into
Speaker 3: a mandate, but you have to be able to effectively
Speaker 3: implement the mandate. Yeah, and I think often that's that's
Speaker 3: the reason that that maybe people are kind of broad
Speaker 3: in how mandates are written, But that's that's that's for
Speaker 3: someone way further up the food food chain than me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for those like the people on the ground then,
Speaker 2: and now that's not a great deal. They can do, right,
Speaker 2: They can attempt to ask the IDEAF to stop, which
Speaker 2: they did, which has historically not work. And they can
Speaker 2: take shelter in their bunkers, which they did, which it's
Speaker 2: only helpful if they're not going to use bunker busting
Speaker 2: missiles to destroy that bunker. So, like, it must be terrible.
Speaker 2: Like it's one thing to be engaged in combat with someone,
Speaker 2: and especially if you're a soldier, bro it's another thing.
Speaker 2: And I found myself in this situation last year to
Speaker 2: be effectively like I'm able to respond. I'm thinking here
Speaker 2: of the Turkish drone bombing and fighter jets and bombers
Speaker 2: in Syria where I was. But it's a horrible thing
Speaker 2: to be in that situation, And is it for those peacekeepers?
Speaker 2: It must be a really difficult sort of place to be.
Speaker 3: Well, it is, yeah, And of course you know, they're
Speaker 3: all conscious of the fact that their families back in
Speaker 3: Ireland are fully aware of what's going on. And Yeah,
Speaker 3: shortly after the invasion, the IDF decided that they had
Speaker 3: told unif they wanted them out. Essentially, and not just
Speaker 3: the Irish, but both other nationalities that were not going,
Speaker 3: you know. So the ide if everywhere they go in Lebanon,
Speaker 3: the first vehicle is a dena in Buldozer, because that
Speaker 3: is more robust than Amercava, and it can also very
Speaker 3: quickly throw up earth and ramparts to sort of you know,
Speaker 3: protect from direct fire. Yeah, the idea of troops. So
Speaker 3: they decided that they would literally conjoin an IDF position
Speaker 3: to the Irish position, hoping that they could intimidate the
Speaker 3: Irish into leaving. And the position's name was six Ash
Speaker 3: five two, very close to the frontier. Ironically, when the
Speaker 3: Israelis withdrew in two thousand, they recognized that this particular
Speaker 3: area was what we in the millers would call key
Speaker 3: terrain because that area overlooked a vulnerable part of northern Israel,
Speaker 3: villages like Avavem and a few others. So the ideas
Speaker 3: requested Uniful to put a position there which would would
Speaker 3: say stop has bullet them put in the position there,
Speaker 3: and then suddenly they're up close and personal trying to
Speaker 3: intimidate the Irish and other nationalities as well. Yeah, So
Speaker 3: it's one of the things, and I think one of
Speaker 3: the reasons that they didn't want unifilled, and there's about
Speaker 3: twenty small of these small positions, mainly close to the frontier.
Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons that they and again
Speaker 3: this is a personal point of view, I think one
Speaker 3: of the reasons that they didn't want UNIFIL in any
Speaker 3: of these positions was eight to turn it into a
Speaker 3: free fire zone would be. One of the things that
Speaker 3: UNIFIL is supposed to do is to monitor and report,
Speaker 3: monitor and observe, and of course if you're not there,
Speaker 3: you can't do it. That's actually one of the things
Speaker 3: that the UNIFIL, even though they're hunt could in their
Speaker 3: bases would with very little mobility, they can still monitor
Speaker 3: and observe what's happening in the general area. Now, would say,
Speaker 3: in the case of this position six five to two,
Speaker 3: if the IDs ultimately gain, our goal was to take
Speaker 3: a major has been a stronghold which is called binchebail
Speaker 3: that's a good further north than disposition, so that the
Speaker 3: focus of attention would move on from with they our
Speaker 3: guys and go a wee bit further north.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's sort of where they find themselves now, right,
Speaker 2: is these can you explain like you've got these positions
Speaker 2: along the frontier, and then you've got the headquarters that
Speaker 2: you just mentioned two days ago have been infringed by
Speaker 2: a bulldozer attacked depends how you want to say it.
Speaker 3: Well, it makes a change from having a tanker on
Speaker 3: fired into an op which they did yeh a few
Speaker 3: days previously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've done consistently right for for a month
Speaker 2: or so. Now is firing directly into these observing positions?
Speaker 2: Are these positions that are now are they left isolated
Speaker 2: as the idea full advance passed and around them And
Speaker 2: in addition to firing directly at them.
Speaker 3: There's somewhat isolated. Now all these positions would be well
Speaker 3: stoped with water and emergency rations and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And as I mentioned before, UNIFIL do have a liaison
Speaker 3: branch which I'm sure are talking to the Idea if
Speaker 3: on an hourly basis and they will coordinate the movements
Speaker 3: of UNIFIL with it supply their positions or I think
Speaker 3: last week they had a convoy went into the city
Speaker 3: of Tier, which is probably twelve krom from the head
Speaker 3: quarters to distribute aid, especially medical aid, because Tier is
Speaker 3: getting fairly whacked. Like all of the self I suppose
Speaker 3: so there is engagement to make sure that these posts
Speaker 3: aren't like completely isolated, that there is a means of
Speaker 3: doing resupply.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Israel stopped one of those at some point, isn't
Speaker 2: it like was it a resupply movement?
Speaker 3: The stop things that are on a regular basis. As
Speaker 3: I said, there is interaction, like nothing happens in a vacuum.
Speaker 3: Like we'll said, yeah, the Irish Italian headquarters would not
Speaker 3: send a convoy to sixtass five two without it being
Speaker 3: communicated to the Israelis and saying we're going to go
Speaker 3: on three vehicles that or seven hundred hours blah blah blah,
Speaker 3: and and get the confirmation back that yeah, that's okay,
Speaker 3: because you know, they mentioned the foul the war and
Speaker 3: that that's not from the fairly real as you can
Speaker 3: imagine yourself. It's a fairly real thing that happens, you
Speaker 3: know sometimes you know, yeah, instructions don't get passed down
Speaker 3: or sometimes instructions are ignored for whatever reason. So it's
Speaker 3: a bit of a delicate, delicate balancing act. But from
Speaker 3: what I understand, it's working well.
Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah, yeah, And I think it's working well
Speaker 2: in terms of like, what's happening in Lebanon is bad,
Speaker 2: and it'd be better if it wasn't. But it's not
Speaker 2: at the same tier as it has been in Gaza.
Speaker 3: No, you're looking at will be three and a half
Speaker 3: thousand compared to forty three and a half thousand killed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so many of those being civilians, right, people
Speaker 2: who absolutely no business targeting, and like that genocidal violence
Speaker 2: that we've seen in Gaza hasn't come to Lebanon, and
Speaker 2: in part I think we can attribute that to their
Speaker 2: being observed. Is there is that fair to say?
Speaker 3: I think it's a fair point. Of course, there's there's
Speaker 3: no real the un footprint in Gaza. My understanding is
Speaker 3: it's extremely extremely light. Yeah, and as you know that
Speaker 3: would say banished genre, yeah, whereas I mean uniform the
Speaker 3: ten thousand troops in southern Lebanon, So there's very much more.
Speaker 3: Maybe there's a more consciousness, but there's still Latin in
Speaker 3: the place, but it's in terms of civilian casualties. As
Speaker 3: we said, it's not going on as long as Gaza either.
Speaker 3: But on the we'll say the combat front, but not
Speaker 3: exactly having things the wrong way either. They've been trying
Speaker 3: to take the village of Kim for the last I
Speaker 3: think two weeks, and my understanding is that haven't have
Speaker 3: destroyed it, right, but they haven't taken it. And it
Speaker 3: was like in two thousand and six they claimed that
Speaker 3: the town of ben Schebail was the Hesivila capital of
Speaker 3: the South, which and I supp wasn't the way it was,
Speaker 3: but the turns of ent draws me. But they never
Speaker 3: controlled it. They were still getting attacked, you know, days
Speaker 3: after they had seized it. Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've never really established like control or like a
Speaker 2: monopoly and non violence in the area. And yeah, they've
Speaker 2: not done that this time. And I think I suppose
Speaker 2: the last thing I wanted to ask about is like
Speaker 2: we've just talked about like why this mission is important,
Speaker 2: and we've spoken about four like you had your family
Speaker 2: there when they were being bombed, and like this investment
Speaker 2: in being there in Lebanon, being alongside the Lebanese people
Speaker 2: in your case with your own family, like it's it's
Speaker 2: one that island has had for a long time. Ireland
Speaker 2: has historically, amongst European nations, been much better on the
Speaker 2: rights of Palestine and Palestinian people, and then most European nations.
Speaker 2: How is this peacekeeping mission perceived in Ireland? Like a
Speaker 2: people proud that they're there?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh, hugely proud. And and you know, the
Speaker 3: Irish have always been extremely proud of what our defense
Speaker 3: forces have achieved, despite us being a very small defense forces.
Speaker 3: Like I think at the moment, between the Navy, the
Speaker 3: Army and the Air Corps, we're probably looking at in
Speaker 3: total in total, well yeah, very small and then we're
Speaker 3: overseas in a lot of places as well, so like
Speaker 3: to dup that from the nine thousand, you're probably down
Speaker 3: to eight. Yeah, but we do tend to punsch up
Speaker 3: over with internationally. We obviously had no colonial baggage, which
Speaker 3: affects some other countries. Yes, and I think generally speaking
Speaker 3: we're seeing as I'm not sure if annest Barker is
Speaker 3: the right word, but certainly not as threatening and not
Speaker 3: coming with an agenda, right yeah, whereas other other countries
Speaker 3: might have a certain agenda for whatever political reasons at home.
Speaker 3: And it's certainly in Ireland s Caes As I said,
Speaker 3: we were there from seventy eight two thousand and now
Speaker 3: from two thousand and six to present day, and a
Speaker 3: lot of it has been in the same general area,
Speaker 3: so people would know Irish soldiers some Lebanese talk with
Speaker 3: an Irish accent.
Speaker 2: I've heard that. Yeah, there it's mad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And depending on what part of
Speaker 3: Ireland the troops were from, you could even go further down,
Speaker 3: like some of them talk with a very broad Dublin accent,
Speaker 3: some of them would talk with a very broad Cork
Speaker 3: accent because of that interaction. And I know one of
Speaker 3: the first big projects the Irish did, certainly from the
Speaker 3: early eighties, was to build an orphanage in a provincial
Speaker 3: capital called Sipneyme and they've been doing that even when
Speaker 3: we know troops there, guys were still sending money and
Speaker 3: toys and everything. That's been demolished last week.
Speaker 2: For Arty Jesus an orphan It's like story book evil stuff,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, well, you know, it's just there's a lot
Speaker 3: of evil stuff going on in the Middle East at
Speaker 3: the moment unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I've personally seen hospitals bombed
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff myself, and it sometimes
Speaker 2: doesn't even make the news. I mean, that orphanage evidently
Speaker 2: didn't really make my news diet. Kevin, thank you very
Speaker 2: much for sharing some of your experiences over there, and
Speaker 2: I'd love to have you on again to talk about
Speaker 2: the things you've the work you've done in Africa and
Speaker 2: the line after after eleven and you've written a book
Speaker 2: right about your experiences peacekeeping and other things. Where could
Speaker 2: people find that?
Speaker 3: Okay? So this initially started off as a lockdown project
Speaker 3: during the COVID lockdown in the Central African Republican And
Speaker 3: initially it was just from my wife and family. But
Speaker 3: as it starts writing, you kind of started remembering and
Speaker 3: it's not just your typical military guy tell us about
Speaker 3: how Bravey was. I have a separate career in mountaineering
Speaker 3: and a separate career in archaeology as well, So it's
Speaker 3: a kind of a much more different mishmash of of
Speaker 3: of stuff going on. So that the book is called
Speaker 3: a Lifeless Ordinary and it can be purchased online at
Speaker 3: Male Books Dot, I m A Y or or chats.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that balance. I've always thought that, like,
Speaker 2: I'll go somewhere and I'll write about the worst things
Speaker 2: I saw there and the worst days I had there,
Speaker 2: and that'll be my story. But I've always wanted to
Speaker 2: write about the mountains of Kurdistan are beautiful and I
Speaker 2: really loved being there, And there are other places that
Speaker 2: people think of them as wars, not countries, and I
Speaker 2: think it would be I'd love to write about mountaineering,
Speaker 2: backpacking in these places where often it's really sad that
Speaker 2: you don't get to share that part.
Speaker 3: I'll write about this in the book. I mean like,
Speaker 3: I've lived a few times in Lebanon, and I've lived
Speaker 3: and worked in Jerusalem a few times, and it's a
Speaker 3: fascinating region. Oh yeah, and the people in both countries
Speaker 3: some I have some really good friends in Israel and
Speaker 3: have some really good friends of Lebanon, and I've been
Speaker 3: treated extremely well by people in both countries. Certainly, if
Speaker 3: you've an interest in archaeology, it's to be else could
Speaker 3: put shit not one to be you know, like the
Speaker 3: Phoenicians in Tier and no matter where you go in
Speaker 3: Tire you can pick up Roman posturally or you can
Speaker 3: see all these amazing sites, whether it's from the Phoenicians,
Speaker 3: from the Romans, from the Trusaders. It's just it's all
Speaker 3: there in front of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, creative civilization there. Well, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for sharing your experiences, Kevin, thanks so much.
Speaker 3: Okay, cheers.
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