1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Calls media. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 2: me James and I'm joined today by Kevin McDonald, who 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 2: previously served as a senior officer in the Irish Defense 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 2: Forces with Special Forces experience and has significant experience working 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: all over the world after that with the United Nations 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: and other organizations. And Kevin, welcome to the show. 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully I've done a good job introducing you. I'm 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: always terrible at that. What we thought we talked about today, 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: Kevin is you have significant experience in Lebanon with UNIPHIL, 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: and I think obviously when we've spoken about this before, 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: we've spoken about it from a sort of looking at 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: it from above strategic level. But what we've not spoken 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: about is what it looks like on the ground. So 16 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: hopefully you can give us some insight into that, especially 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: having been there both as like an enlisted soldier and 18 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: as an officer. I think can you explain at first? 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of confusion or misinformation 20 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: about like how did these Irish if we look at 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: the Irish soldiers. That's so when you've obviously the most 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: experience with how do they end up deployed to Lebanon. 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: Is it a voluntary thing? Do they sort of say, 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: put a hand up a set, I want to do this, 25 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: or is it your units going so you're going? 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: Okay? Well, just I suppose as a brief reminder to 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 3: your listeners, UNIFIL is the United Nations interim force in Lebanon, 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 3: and it's been interim since nineteen seventy eight. What it 29 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 3: started first, the Irish were one of the first countries 30 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: to sign up to deploy a battalion there, and we 31 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: had a battalion in Lebanon from nineteen seventy eight until 32 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: two thousand and In two thousand, the Israelis withdrew from 33 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 3: what they called a security zone about like a ten 34 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: kilometer buffer zone in southern Lebanon. So when they did 35 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: that and retreat to the frontier between the two countries 36 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: and departs it's battalion. Its left a few staff officers there, 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: but it didn't supply a battalion anymore. It was concentrating 38 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: on the missions in Syria and other places. And then 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: after the two thousand and six war, they were asked 40 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 3: to come back with a battalion and we've been there 41 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 3: ever since with an infantry battalion. In relation to your 42 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: question about it, is it a volunteer mission. It is 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 3: for most people. However, there have been people who will 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 3: be what's known as mandatory selected if they have certain 45 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: skill sets, whether it be a doctor, whether it be 46 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: whatever happens to be. If you know, if the army 47 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: can't get sufficient volunteers, then they will mandatory select. But 48 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: generally speaking, certainly in the early years, it was actually 49 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: quite difficult to get to become a volunteer for Leblon 50 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: because so many people wanted to go there because there is, 51 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 3: you know, there's a bit of a financial incentive to 52 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: do that as well. I deployed there as a private 53 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: soldier in nineteen eighty four. I wasn't even twelve months 54 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 3: in the army at that stage, and within two months 55 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: I was made in acting corporal. So then I went 56 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: back as an office in nineteen ninety three where we 57 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 3: had a seven day war operational accountability. I was back 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: in ninety ninety six as an officer for another seven 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: day war operation Grapes of Wrath, and I ended up 60 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: there with my family as an unarmed minity observer in 61 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: two thousand and six for the a full thirty four 62 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: days of carnage. So, yeah, Lebanon was always well regarded 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: by the Arish Defense Forces because it did the couple 64 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 3: of things. It exposed troops to not just new cultures 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 3: and new areas, but it exposed them to danger as well. 66 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: And it also gave a chance for young NCOs and 67 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 3: young officers to physically lead their troops in a challenging environment, 68 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 3: which you don't always get, you know, when you're at 69 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: home in Ireland or with the UK or whatever, you 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 3: don't always get that type of leadership experience. Plus you're 71 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: exposed to other cultures, whether it be the Nordic countries 72 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 3: or you know, you're exposed to different ways of operating. 73 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: And it's been it's been a positive experience. But I 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: would find out that since we started there, we've lost 75 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: far to get troops killed in Lebanon. 76 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because not an insignificant amount, especially considering like 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: the Irish Defense Forces are much smaller. When if people 78 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: are more familiar with the US military, right, which is 79 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: more than a million people, you know, forty eight is 80 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: a significant amount. You talked about how it exposes you 81 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: to look at other cultures and obviously one of them 82 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: is like the Lebanese people. But it's a very international deployment, right, 83 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: It's you're not just sort of sitting there on your 84 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 2: Irish base with Irish Defense Forces people and not interacting 85 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: with other militaries. So can you explain like some of 86 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: the other countries that have this long history there. 87 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 3: When I went there in nineteen eighty four, there was 88 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: a battalion from Fiji, Finland, France, Ghana, ourselves, the Netherlands, 89 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 3: Norway and Senegal. Wow, what a strength. At the time 90 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: of about six thousand, when I was there as a 91 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: non our military observer with UNSOL, which is a different mission, 92 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 3: the strength had dropped to two thousand and two thousand 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: and six with just two battalions that can name battalion 94 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: and in Indian battalion. And now essentially since after the 95 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 3: war in two thousand and six they started building up, 96 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 3: there's probably about ten thousand troops there at the moment. 97 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: There is some huge interaction at the battalion level between 98 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: different nations. In other words, a battalion will have its 99 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 3: own area of responsibility. It's responsible for patrolling in that area. 100 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: Now with the likes of Nso you're much more exposed 101 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 3: to other armies, other nationalities because essentially, every time you 102 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: go patrolling, you can't, like two Irish officers couldn't patrol 103 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: together because if they see an infringement, whether it's a 104 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 3: firing close, whether it's one side sending drones into leven 105 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: and Ano the other side sending contucial rockets into Israel, 106 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 3: they're all violations, but to record it as a violation, 107 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 3: you can't have two people from the same country. So 108 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 3: you're much more exposed, as I said, to foreign nationalities. 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there's certainly a lot of nation I 110 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: know the Indonesians are there now and the contiguent from 111 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: India when people talk about UNIFIL now a lot. You'll 112 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: see one of two accusations, right, You'll see that they're 113 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: either like they're as allies of Hezbollah in Lebanon, which 114 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: is not the case, or you'll see that they're there 115 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: as observers for the IDF or spies for the IDF. 116 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: And like, obviously the fact that they're being accused of 117 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: both probably suggest that they are neither, because it be 118 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: fairly obvious if they were. But can you explain the 119 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: tripartite agreement. It seems to me like that might make 120 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 2: it difficult to do the things that uniform is supposed 121 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: to be doing. Is that fair? 122 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 3: I don't know. I think it's I think it's a 123 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,239 Speaker 3: fair assessment. And if you're if both sides are complaining 124 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: about you, as you say, it probably does indicate that 125 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: you're you're at least doing something right. 126 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. 127 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 3: So UNIFIL, it's a it's a peacekeeping mission, and so 128 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 3: there with the agreement of both parties. So in other words, 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 3: the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have agreed that 130 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 3: UNIFIL be established in Lebanon. That's the first thing to 131 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: point out. The second thing, which is kind of contentious now, 132 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 3: especially with the extent of Hesbodus Tunnels is being exposed, 133 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: is that there's a lot of generally misinformed chatter about 134 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: what UNIFIL can and cannot do. So after the two 135 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: thousand and six War, Resolution seventeen oh one was enforced 136 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 3: or was brought in to develop more thoroughly the mandate 137 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: for what UNIFIL can and cannot do, and one of 138 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 3: the stated paragraphs is that UNIFIL will assist the Lebanese 139 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the 140 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: Blue Line and the Latanian River of an area free 141 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 3: of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those 142 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: of the Government of Lebanon and of uniful deployed in 143 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: this area. And this is one of the failings. But 144 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: it should be pointed out that the responsibility of the 145 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 3: Laugh of the Lebanese armed forces to instigate it supported 146 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: by uniform, not unifil going in looking for arms and 147 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 3: weapons supported by the Laugh. It's the other way around. 148 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: And one of the difficulties that you're always going to 149 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: have is that Lebanon has a divided society. Yeah, it's 150 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: an extremely rich and significant society, and I've lived there 151 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 3: quite a lot and have great respect for the people 152 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: and their traditions. However, the sectarianism is kind of baked 153 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: into how the government works, and that kind of works 154 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: as way down. So the president has to be a Marianite, 155 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: Christian speak of the House has to be Shia, and 156 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: the Prime Minister has to be sunny. Yeah, And that 157 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: division was based on the last time there was a 158 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: census in Lebanon, which was nineteen thirty two, and since 159 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: then the dynamics have changed, so Hezbela is not just 160 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: a minitary organization. It's a political organization, and it's a 161 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: wealthier organization. 162 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't get that. 163 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: And it's Shia and the majority of the people in 164 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: the south are Shia. And you know a lot of 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 3: them get their schooling and their medication from Hesbulla. So 166 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: it's not just a military organization. And there's various estimates, 167 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 3: but you could be looking at them. But we say, 168 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: prior to the present conflict, maybe seventy thousand Hesbla in 169 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: south of their root, shall we say. And some of 170 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 3: them are full time, some of them are part time, 171 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: some of them are just sympathizers, helpers, friends. You know, 172 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 3: it's difficult. And another factor that has proven extremely difficult 173 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: is so when unifim patrol with the laugh, there is 174 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: certain restrictions that even the laugh have in terms of 175 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: entering certain areas. And what has Bullah have done is 176 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: that they have designated certain nature reserves and generally speaking, 177 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 3: the laugh won't go in there. And if the laugh 178 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 3: won't go win, the uniful can't goin right, So the 179 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: laugh for kind of you know that they have a 180 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 3: balancing act to do. In terms of retaining the trust 181 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 3: of the people in the south and also not causing 182 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 3: a sectarian divide within their own ranks. 183 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. 184 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: And also they have another problem in terms of equipment. 185 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: They're sort of relying on other countries, the UK, the US, 186 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 3: France to supply them with equipment. But like they have 187 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 3: no tanks. They have a few helicopters. They're very much 188 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: like there's no way they will take on has bullet no. 189 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 2: Way, right, yeah, or the IDEF. 190 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: And UNIFOR itself is likely armed, you know, it's not 191 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: gone round in tanks or anything armored carriage. Yes. The 192 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: only time, the last time UNIFAL had tanks in Lebanon 193 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: was just after the war when the French deployed with 194 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 3: the Lea clerk tanks, right, which did not please the 195 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: locals because the clerk tanks driving up and down the 196 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: roads was nearly doing as much damage as the Markava 197 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 3: tanks during the war. And plus Lebanon isn't a very 198 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: tank friendly area to be operating against. 199 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 2: What we said, right, yeah, was that when the IDF 200 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: came in and then Macava tanks and the French like 201 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: physically blocked them with their own tanks. I can't remember 202 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: when that was, and I'm. 203 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: Not aware of that, but it could will happen because 204 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 3: I know certainly back in the. 205 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: Nineties that may have been. When it was when Israel was. 206 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: Operating the security Zone. We the Irish and our colleagues 207 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 3: from Finland and Norway had had numerous standoffs with Israelis 208 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: trying to enter certain villages. 209 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: And yeah, but. 210 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw the day before yesterday the two I 211 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 3: think two bulldozers in the Marcava or I said, yeah, 212 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: two d nines broke down a U and watchtower and 213 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: a UN fence at the un UNIFIL headquarters in the Cura, 214 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 3: which is a few k from the frontier with Israel. Yes, 215 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: I should I note as well for your listeners that 216 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: Israel and Lebanon have been at a state of war 217 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: since nineteen forty eight. Yes, they've never had a seat 218 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: or a peace agreement, and. 219 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: The Triparte Agreement is the only place where they actually meet, right. 220 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there is a UNIFIL post a meeting normally 221 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 3: right at the frontier where you can cross between one 222 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: country and the other. And I keep using the word 223 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: frontier because it's not a border. It hasn't been officially demarketd. 224 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: The blue line, which I mentioned earlier on simply verifies 225 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 3: that the IDF have withdrawn into Israel, but it's not 226 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 3: the border right however, going back to your point about 227 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 3: the Tripartheid Agreement, and that's where the senior Israeli officials 228 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 3: senior Lebanese officials, under the chairmanship of UNIFIL meat and 229 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 3: they discuss items of concern that maybe UNIFIL can help 230 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: or now between the two of them, and in twenty 231 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: twenty two they managed to organize a maritime boundary between 232 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: Lebanon and Israel, which was kind of fascinating because on 233 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 3: the western side of Lebanon and the northwesterns coast of 234 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 3: Israel the huge gas fields. So the two countries actually 235 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: they've agreed their maritime boundary under the auspices of UNIFIL. 236 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 3: They still haven't agreed their land. But it's the first 237 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: time that a peace keep mission has arranged and courage 238 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 3: developed and led successfully discussions about a maritime boundary. So 239 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 3: the uniform does have some successes. 240 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it would be wrong to 241 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 2: over looks. We'll take a quick break for adverts and 242 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: we'll come back. We're back, And Kevin, you'd mentioned that 243 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 2: you were in Lebanon in two thousand and six. I 244 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: think you said you're an unarms observer at that time, 245 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: Is that right. 246 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Yet, so one of the oldest missions 247 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: in the world is one, so the United Nations Truth 248 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: Supervisory Organization, and that essentially was established, I suppose after 249 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: the forty eight War, and it had well say, offices 250 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: and observers in Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. You 251 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: know that they were quite effective in certain ways, Like 252 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 3: certainly the eventual peace agreement between Egypt and Israel was 253 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,599 Speaker 3: very much helped along by the presence of ONSO in 254 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: Cairo and Shamra Shaik. The dieasagreement between Jordan and Israel 255 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: again was very much assisted by ONSO. So they have 256 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 3: a kind of a fairly good track record. And what 257 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: they bring to the table is that first of all, 258 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: they're unarmed military observers, which takes some of the sting 259 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: out of heaven. You know, a heavily armed guy with 260 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: a hell and there's and sunglasses walk around, you know that, 261 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 3: and some armies, as you know, can tend to be 262 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: more intimidating than others in how they how they carry themselves. 263 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: So I went there. I went to the region in 264 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: two thousand and five and I was working on the 265 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: occupied Golden Heights, living in the in Tiberias on the 266 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: Sea of Galilee with my wife and two kids who 267 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 3: then were four and five. And in February zero six 268 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 3: I was transferred to Lebanon and we were living in 269 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 3: the city of Tier. The kids were going to a 270 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: local English speaking Arab school and Lebanon was absolutely thriving. 271 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: It must happened. We had the kids in bear Rouge, 272 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: we had them and a man done in what they 273 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 3: run and my normal routine. We had four observation posts 274 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: along the frontier with with Israel, yeah staft by five 275 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: guys who spent a week seven days up there and 276 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 3: then you come down for four or five and then 277 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 3: go back up again. And each team had its specific 278 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: area to operate with, and we say a specific battalion 279 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: that we would interact with. And also quite importantly, we 280 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: had liaison assistants who were locals like translators, but but 281 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: they're a lot more important than that. And based on 282 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: the sectarian nature of the area, you know, you'd always 283 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: have a Christian you'd always have a share, but you 284 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: could have the Drews. If you were further up to 285 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 3: the north, you could have suddenly. And each team had 286 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: four or five of these because we used to send 287 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 3: two patrols out each day. So we had huge interaction 288 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: with the locals and ARMERI, with the mayors and the muktar, 289 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: and we were very much a force multiplier for UNIFIL 290 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: because we could get information from people. You know, we 291 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: used to stop and have lunch in some of the 292 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: little restaurants and we were always talking to people, and 293 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: you know, it was the window down, waving out, having 294 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 3: a chat, learning a bit of Arabic, whereas Uniful by 295 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: its nature goes around in armor cars, right, and even 296 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: if you stop, when you get out and you take 297 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: off the sunglasses, people will just react differently. The two 298 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: guys with a local that they know in the car. 299 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, as about someone in full battle rattle again. 300 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: Now, we definitely were. But the war kicked off on 301 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: the twelfth of July two thousand and six and I 302 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 3: was I had done on patrol to pick up or 303 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 3: Christian liaison assistant in her village and literally we were 304 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 3: heading off on patrol and over the radio all stations 305 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: go to the nearest U went position immediately. The nearest 306 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: U went position tours at the time was an inn 307 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 3: the platoon position on top of a hill. From my 308 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 3: past experience, I had reckoned that there was a bit 309 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 3: of stuff going on either in shade the farms, which 310 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 3: is a disputed area in the southeastern part of Lebanon, 311 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 3: up in the mountains. So I said to the guy 312 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: that was with me, I said, look, this could be 313 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 3: over a couple of hours. Let's go straight back to 314 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 3: our patrol base. And you know, we knew we had 315 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 3: a fool the facility, and we also knew we had 316 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 3: a good bunker in the place, so we had it 317 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 3: back at a fair agnuts, shall we say. And normally, 318 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: when we would have two patrols out, there'd be one 319 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 3: guy left in the patrol base and he'd be responsible 320 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: for radio checks and all that kind of stuff. But 321 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 3: what we'd do is, when we were about maybe a 322 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: kilometer away, we would inform our headquarters in in the 323 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 3: Kura that were closing down at our final destination, which 324 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 3: would give this guy time to come out and unlock 325 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 3: the gate to let us in. And just as I 326 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: had transmitted that up on the ear and said don't 327 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 3: come in, don't come in, we're getting hit up. So 328 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: we're at that stage we will restigate, and about maybe 329 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: two kilometers away there was a huge idea of position 330 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 3: and they were just banging with pine fives and gpmg's 331 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: not directly at us, but kind of in the general area. 332 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, explain those weapons systems for people who aren't familiar, 333 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: like what's a GPMG If as somebody is not. 334 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: Okay, sorry, So you've everyone's familiar with with, say in 335 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 3: AK forty seven or and then sixteen, which would be 336 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: known as small arms. In other words, that caliber is 337 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: five point five six or seven point six two. Then 338 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: you have medium machine guns which are generally belt fed, 339 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 3: and there are seven point six two yeah. And then 340 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: you have heavy machine guns, again belt fed, and they're 341 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: twelve point seven or fifty caliber. Yeah. So we were 342 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: getting a fair bit. But it took us maybe an 343 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 3: hour of listening to various news channels, both in Lebanon 344 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 3: and in Israel to realize that as we had carried 345 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 3: cross border attack hit up an idea of convoy kidnapped 346 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: two who were seriously injured and subsequently died and killed 347 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 3: initially four and then against their own orders and Israeli 348 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 3: mccalva went into Lebanon to have a kind of commanding 349 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 3: view over where they thought that Hespital were bringing these guys. 350 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: Hesbala knew that that's what they do, and big anti 351 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: tank mind and killed four guys inside the Murcava. So 352 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: Israel had last eight and two kidnapped in the space 353 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 3: of maybe maybe an hour. So the reaction was was 354 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: it was fast and furious, and yeah, it took us 355 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 3: nearly six days to get our Lee as an assistant 356 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 3: back back to her village. It took the un nearly 357 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 3: two and a half weeks two of actually with the families, 358 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 3: because at that stage once it was a family mission, 359 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 3: and where I was, I could see the jets dropping 360 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 3: bombs in to Tier, and my wife could look up 361 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: on the skyline knowing where I was and see the 362 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 3: same thing happening. I was sort of used to being 363 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 3: under fire, but it's a different thing to see your 364 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: family under fire as well. And eventually when the charter 365 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: the sort of a cruise liner from Cyprus to come 366 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: over and stand offshore and send in its lifeboats to 367 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: bring the families out. So when this has been planned 368 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: and so had try to organize that an armored convoy 369 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: would bring those onmos that were deployed on the four 370 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 3: posts down to tier to say goodbye. But where I was, 371 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 3: we were getting hammered with artillery fire and tank fire. 372 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: So I was the only one with family that couldn't 373 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: get out. So when my wife and two kids that 374 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: were five and seven, that's fit, were getting into the 375 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 3: lifeboat to bring them out to the ship, I rang 376 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 3: her and I said, look, I'll see you want to 377 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 3: see which is not a great way to end the 378 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: family mission, let me tell you now. And then in 379 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: the space of the next three days, we had a 380 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 3: strength of fifty two officers and in about three days 381 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: we last over ten percent. We had one Italian captain 382 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: shot in the back. He's known a wheel chair. We 383 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: had another Australian captain seriously injured when the converse she 384 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: was in was I suppose target is probably the way 385 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: to explain it. But she she was thrown up against 386 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 3: the inside of the armored car and essentially her back 387 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 3: was broken. She was evacuated with my wife and kids, 388 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: and then I think it was the day later or 389 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 3: two days later, the Israeli dropped the Jadam, which is 390 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: a bunker busted missile into the post, just up for me, 391 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: killing for very good friends of mine. So yeah, two 392 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: thousand and six was a bit rough. 393 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're comfortable, could we talk about that last 394 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 2: one a little bit, because I think it's one of 395 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: the ones that, like, there's no mistaking that un position, right, 396 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: it's you don't and you don't accidentally disco dropping Jadam's 397 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: left right in center all over the place. 398 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: Like. The first thing I should say is that twenty 399 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 3: one years previously that observation post was completely destroyed, but 400 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: there was no one in it at the time. So 401 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: when it was rebuilt, it had the best bunker in Lebanon, 402 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: so that they dug down first and had like a 403 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 3: lot of the the bunkers currently in Lebanar are overgrown 404 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 3: the bunkers, but this this was dug down into the 405 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 3: into the rock essentially, and it had its roof was 406 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 3: about a meter and a half of reinforced steel and 407 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: concrete with the two story concrete building on top of it. 408 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: So without doubt it was the best bunker in Lebanon. 409 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 3: So that on that this this happened on the twenty 410 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: fifth of July, and on that particular day we'd already 411 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 3: lost the patrol base in Marouna rass when when Roberto 412 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: was shot and they had I have to say, in fairness, 413 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 3: but there's the liaison branch that kind of liaises between 414 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: IDF and UNIFIL. Okay, and UNIFIL couldn't launch one of 415 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: the telecopter to do a medevac. So the decision was 416 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: made that the guys would get into an armored land 417 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 3: cruiser and follow Israeli tank tracks back into Israel. 418 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: Where they couldn't deconflict the air space to launch it 419 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: or what was stopping them launching their helicopter to evacuate. 420 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 3: There was too much connectic activity at that it wouldn't 421 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 3: have been able to land. 422 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: It was. 423 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 3: It was a battle long ago, okay. Yeah, So they 424 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 3: essentially followed Israeli tank tracks that had come into Leblon. 425 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 3: They followed those tank tracks back into Israel where they 426 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 3: were met by an Israeli patrol and Roberto was flown 427 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 3: through Rambam hospital. But yeah, going back to going back 428 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 3: to kem on the twenty fifth of July, as we 429 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: were all taking a fair bit of incoming where I was. 430 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 3: It wasn't targeting, it was more sort of harassment fire. 431 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, like that. 432 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: The house next door took three direct tank rounds and 433 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 3: it was five meters away Jesus from post, and our 434 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 3: post was tiny. Yeah, but in the guys in Kiam 435 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: were taking a coupit of archarity. But there was a 436 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 3: lot of air strikes coming in close. And again for 437 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 3: your listeners, the UN has a designation what it calls 438 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: a firing close. So we'll say a firing close from 439 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: a sixteen is I don't know, something like fifty meters 440 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: or something like that. Firing close from an artillery shell 441 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: is five hundred meters, and a firing close from an 442 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 3: aerial bomb is a kilometer. So if it lands within 443 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: a kilometer, it's officially designated as a firing close, and 444 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: it's recorded, and you know, both sides get you know, 445 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: it's it's an official account of of what's happening. So 446 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: the guys who are getting you know, a good few 447 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: firings close from area bombs and there was three distinct 448 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 3: waves of attack in the general area. So naturally Force 449 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 3: Commander uniful chief of staff on so you win a 450 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 3: quarters in New York were screaming at the Israelis, you know, 451 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: stopped targeting disposition. What was it hes bull in the area? 452 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 3: Of course there was keam is a hesbil a stronghold. 453 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 3: But eventually that that evening the decision was made that 454 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: the patrol buss is going to be evacuated. But because 455 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: of the level of kinetic activity that evening, it was 456 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 3: going to be done at first light next morning. And 457 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 3: since the war started, we had all been on the 458 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 3: twenty four to seven twenty minute radio so every twenty 459 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 3: minutes you had to respond to a radio check. So 460 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 3: the last transmission from the post was from a Canadian 461 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: friend of mine X Special Forces. Really really cool and 462 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 3: I could hear it in his voice. He was requested 463 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: a luck in time for a firing close. It's danger close, 464 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 3: it's danger close, get them to stop. And that was 465 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: the last transmission. So when they miss the next radio check, 466 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 3: we presumed another shell had come in and blown all 467 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: the aerials of the of the building. So myself and 468 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 3: a NAUSI feund the Mind requested permission to take our 469 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 3: armored land cruiser and try and drive up and see 470 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: what was happening. That was refused by UNIFIL, so they 471 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: sent a patrol from the Indian battalion, which was kind 472 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: of in fairness that it was nearer. So we switched 473 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: on to their radio frequency to hear what they were saying, 474 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 3: and so they approached the base. They had obviously had 475 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: to break down the gate and said the base had 476 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: taken a direct hit by an aerial bond. And at 477 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 3: that stage we were still thinking maybe they're trapped under 478 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 3: the rubble or something like that. And then the one 479 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 3: of them transmitters, we have found the body of a 480 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: Chinese officer, so we knew the four guys were were 481 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 3: were killed. And the Indians found three bodies that night 482 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: and brought them to the marchary in marja Un, which 483 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 3: is a large Christian town. So the next morning there 484 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 3: was I think five of us tasked to open identify 485 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 3: the bodies. 486 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 487 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 3: So the first guy was Chinese, was over pressure, killed time, 488 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: so that that was an easy one to identify. The 489 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 3: next guy had no arms, no legs, and wead Jesus 490 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 3: and where his head should have been was the chain 491 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 3: of a dog tag and I went down into his body. 492 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 3: Paris Yeah, and the other guy yeah, so yeah, it 493 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: was a difficult, difficult procedure, and then we had to 494 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 3: try and arrange to get the bodies transferred into Israel 495 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 3: to where you and colleagues from Jerusalem so they could 496 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: go to Rambam Hospital and have have you know, a 497 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 3: proper identification and all that sort of stuff. 498 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, eventually be returned to their families, I suppose. 499 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 3: And that was a difficult procedure because where the Ideas 500 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: said they could meet us, there was a minefield in 501 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: front of us, and where we said we could meet them, 502 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 3: they thought it was too exposed. So eventually we went 503 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 3: into an old, small, tiny Indian platoon position and about 504 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: one hundred meters away there was a gate that the 505 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 3: Israelis used to you who's to come in a note 506 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 3: when the security's own was there. But the area between 507 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: the un position and the gate hadn't been mind swept 508 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 3: in six years. But we had no choice. We couldn't 509 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 3: bring the guys back to the march because I had 510 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 3: resorted to using refrigerated trucks to store bodies because the 511 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 3: marcher was full. Yeah, So there was there was an 512 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 3: IDEF company there under a I think it was a 513 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 3: full brigadier and there's a war going on, naturally, Yeah, 514 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 3: all the time, gunships and katouch's passing each other over 515 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 3: our heads. So when we had the three lads transfer 516 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 3: over to our colleagues fro Jerusalem, I stood in front 517 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 3: of the Ideas Brigadier and I lined up all the 518 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: UN troops and he says, we're not going to have 519 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 3: a minute silence and memory of our friends who were 520 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: murdered on the cause of peace, and no, having a 521 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: having a minute silence in the middle of a battle 522 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 3: is a odd experience. In fairness to this guy, he 523 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: still to attention, And because I lived in Tiberias, I 524 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,239 Speaker 3: had a small bit of Hebrew and I went over 525 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: afterwards and thanked them for hisp And we didn't find 526 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: the fourth body on the left of the seas for Jesus. Yeah, yeah, 527 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 3: that's rough. 528 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: Sorry, that's terrible to think about. 529 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: So the obvious question is I know what the one 530 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: you want to ask? Why? Yeah, And I should have 531 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 3: said it at the start. Anything I say here, it's 532 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 3: it's my personal opinion. So it can't be construed as 533 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: being the views of the Irish Defense Forces. Yes, of course, 534 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: are certainly not the views of the United Nations. They 535 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 3: are my personal views. So you know, people should just 536 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 3: take it that it's it's Kevin McDonald describing what happened 537 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 3: to him and what his personal views on it are. 538 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: So why did they do it? Well, I think there's 539 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 3: a couple of things. Hubris is one. I think at 540 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 3: that stage there they were like a schoolyard bully who 541 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: got better and wanted to lash out of anything and everything. 542 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 3: A second, probably more tactical reason is that the village 543 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: of kim Is on a ridge, would say, at the 544 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: end of the redge ridged closest to Israel, because it's 545 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 3: only about four miles away, is where this op was. 546 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: And that's the reason was there and between kem and 547 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 3: we say, the frontier with Israel is the Hula Valley, 548 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: which is the biggest maneuver space. If you want a 549 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: maneuver armor and stuff into Lebanon with plenty of space, 550 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: that's where you do it. In fact, decide it is 551 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 3: an old Vichy French airfield from the Second World War, 552 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: so it's low space, and I think they didn't want 553 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: eyes on the ground seeing what they were doing. And 554 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: like one of the things for military observers is you 555 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 3: observe in your reports. That's your task. So was there 556 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 3: hez Bulla in the area around the around the OPI 557 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 3: yes there was. But as you probably know, if you 558 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 3: want to attack troops in the open, you use airburst 559 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: artillery shells, which the Israelis they did in nineteen ninety 560 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: six when they fired fifteen of them into a UN 561 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: battalion head quarters, killing one hundred and six leban These men, 562 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: women and children. See cancelter shelter in the UN headquarters. 563 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 3: But you don't fire a bunk or bust and missile 564 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 3: into a UN post to attack Hesbula. 565 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: The subtle difference, Yeah, there's a different Yeah. I suppose 566 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 2: what people will ask is like, it's I think it's 567 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: important to explain this from the point of view of 568 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 2: someone on the ground. It's obviously UN troops are not 569 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: there to fight. They're there to keep peace, but they 570 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: are an armed presence, and so they'll wonder how or 571 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: why the UN can or can't defend itself the uniform 572 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: troops specifically in these positions. So, like, can you explain 573 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: how your rules of engagement and how that works for 574 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: from the sort of on the ground perspective. 575 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the rules of engagement we said for a 576 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: peacekeeper mission, like we pack on one side because they're unarmed, 577 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: but for a peacekeeper mission. Yeah, So peacekeeping is generally 578 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 3: based on three principles consent, impartiality, and the use of 579 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: force in self defense of the mandate. So naturally, like 580 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: the guys there at the moment aren't going to try 581 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 3: and take on through or former KALFA tanks. First of all, 582 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: they don't have the capability to it. 583 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting Do they not have the guinances? 584 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: That's fine? Do they have, for instance, javelin and things 585 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: like that. Do they have those weapons systems available? 586 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 3: I'm not sure what they have currently. Certainly we didn't have, Okay, 587 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: and it wasn't ever going to be an issue because 588 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 3: that's kind of not our job like that. The sole 589 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: responsibility to protect the people of Leblon is the Lebanese government. 590 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 3: Uniful is there to assist. It's not there to say, okay, 591 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 3: you step back, you know, we stemmed up and protect you. 592 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 3: That's not what Uniful or any peacekeeping mission. The only 593 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 3: peacekeeping mission that eventually had an offensive capability built into 594 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: its mandate was the mission that's now closing down in 595 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 3: the DRC. The Democratic Republic of Congo and it's Monusco, 596 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: and they specifically changed the mandate to include an offensive 597 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 3: capability to go after the twenty three rebels in the 598 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: Kivus in sort of the northeast. And when they did it, 599 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 3: like you know, attack helicopters should forces a lot. Yeah, 600 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 3: it was quite effective. But which kind of brings me 601 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 3: to another point because I just last year a completed 602 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 3: a Masters in Peace and Conflict Studies and mandates was 603 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: the evolution of mandates is what I sort of looked 604 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 3: at and haven't wrote bus mandates is all well and good, 605 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 3: but the TCCs, the true contrip in countries, have to 606 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 3: have the ability, the capability of the training and the 607 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: will to carry out the robust nature of the mandate. 608 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 3: So you know, we we were saying in Ireland paper 609 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 3: never refuses ink. You can put whatever you want into 610 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 3: a mandate, but you have to be able to effectively 611 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 3: implement the mandate. Yeah, and I think often that's that's 612 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: the reason that that maybe people are kind of broad 613 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 3: in how mandates are written, But that's that's that's for 614 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 3: someone way further up the food food chain than me. 615 00:33:49,800 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, So for those like the people on the ground then, 616 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: and now that's not a great deal. They can do, right, 617 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: They can attempt to ask the IDEAF to stop, which 618 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 2: they did, which has historically not work. And they can 619 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 2: take shelter in their bunkers, which they did, which it's 620 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 2: only helpful if they're not going to use bunker busting 621 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: missiles to destroy that bunker. So, like, it must be terrible. 622 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: Like it's one thing to be engaged in combat with someone, 623 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: and especially if you're a soldier, bro it's another thing. 624 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 2: And I found myself in this situation last year to 625 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 2: be effectively like I'm able to respond. I'm thinking here 626 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: of the Turkish drone bombing and fighter jets and bombers 627 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: in Syria where I was. But it's a horrible thing 628 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: to be in that situation, And is it for those peacekeepers? 629 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: It must be a really difficult sort of place to be. 630 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 3: Well, it is, yeah, And of course you know, they're 631 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: all conscious of the fact that their families back in 632 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: Ireland are fully aware of what's going on. And Yeah, 633 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 3: shortly after the invasion, the IDF decided that they had 634 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 3: told unif they wanted them out. Essentially, and not just 635 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 3: the Irish, but both other nationalities that were not going, 636 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 3: you know. So the ide if everywhere they go in Lebanon, 637 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 3: the first vehicle is a dena in Buldozer, because that 638 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 3: is more robust than Amercava, and it can also very 639 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 3: quickly throw up earth and ramparts to sort of you know, 640 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 3: protect from direct fire. Yeah, the idea of troops. So 641 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: they decided that they would literally conjoin an IDF position 642 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 3: to the Irish position, hoping that they could intimidate the 643 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 3: Irish into leaving. And the position's name was six Ash 644 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 3: five two, very close to the frontier. Ironically, when the 645 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: Israelis withdrew in two thousand, they recognized that this particular 646 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 3: area was what we in the millers would call key 647 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 3: terrain because that area overlooked a vulnerable part of northern Israel, 648 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: villages like Avavem and a few others. So the ideas 649 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 3: requested Uniful to put a position there which would would 650 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 3: say stop has bullet them put in the position there, 651 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 3: and then suddenly they're up close and personal trying to 652 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 3: intimidate the Irish and other nationalities as well. Yeah, So 653 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 3: it's one of the things, and I think one of 654 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 3: the reasons that they didn't want unifilled, and there's about 655 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 3: twenty small of these small positions, mainly close to the frontier. 656 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons that they and again 657 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 3: this is a personal point of view, I think one 658 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 3: of the reasons that they didn't want UNIFIL in any 659 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 3: of these positions was eight to turn it into a 660 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 3: free fire zone would be. One of the things that 661 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 3: UNIFIL is supposed to do is to monitor and report, 662 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 3: monitor and observe, and of course if you're not there, 663 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: you can't do it. That's actually one of the things 664 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: that the UNIFIL, even though they're hunt could in their 665 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 3: bases would with very little mobility, they can still monitor 666 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 3: and observe what's happening in the general area. Now, would say, 667 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 3: in the case of this position six five to two, 668 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: if the IDs ultimately gain, our goal was to take 669 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 3: a major has been a stronghold which is called binchebail 670 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 3: that's a good further north than disposition, so that the 671 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 3: focus of attention would move on from with they our 672 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 3: guys and go a wee bit further north. 673 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's sort of where they find themselves now, right, 674 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 2: is these can you explain like you've got these positions 675 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: along the frontier, and then you've got the headquarters that 676 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: you just mentioned two days ago have been infringed by 677 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: a bulldozer attacked depends how you want to say it. 678 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: Well, it makes a change from having a tanker on 679 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 3: fired into an op which they did yeh a few 680 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 3: days previously. 681 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've done consistently right for for a month 682 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: or so. Now is firing directly into these observing positions? 683 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: Are these positions that are now are they left isolated 684 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 2: as the idea full advance passed and around them And 685 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: in addition to firing directly at them. 686 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 3: There's somewhat isolated. Now all these positions would be well 687 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 3: stoped with water and emergency rations and stuff like that. 688 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 3: And as I mentioned before, UNIFIL do have a liaison 689 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 3: branch which I'm sure are talking to the Idea if 690 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: on an hourly basis and they will coordinate the movements 691 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 3: of UNIFIL with it supply their positions or I think 692 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 3: last week they had a convoy went into the city 693 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: of Tier, which is probably twelve krom from the head 694 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 3: quarters to distribute aid, especially medical aid, because Tier is 695 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 3: getting fairly whacked. Like all of the self I suppose 696 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 3: so there is engagement to make sure that these posts 697 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 3: aren't like completely isolated, that there is a means of 698 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 3: doing resupply. 699 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, Israel stopped one of those at some point, isn't 700 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 2: it like was it a resupply movement? 701 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 3: The stop things that are on a regular basis. As 702 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 3: I said, there is interaction, like nothing happens in a vacuum. 703 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 3: Like we'll said, yeah, the Irish Italian headquarters would not 704 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 3: send a convoy to sixtass five two without it being 705 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 3: communicated to the Israelis and saying we're going to go 706 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 3: on three vehicles that or seven hundred hours blah blah blah, 707 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 3: and and get the confirmation back that yeah, that's okay, 708 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 3: because you know, they mentioned the foul the war and 709 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 3: that that's not from the fairly real as you can 710 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 3: imagine yourself. It's a fairly real thing that happens, you 711 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 3: know sometimes you know, yeah, instructions don't get passed down 712 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 3: or sometimes instructions are ignored for whatever reason. So it's 713 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 3: a bit of a delicate, delicate balancing act. But from 714 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 3: what I understand, it's working well. 715 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah, yeah, And I think it's working well 716 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 2: in terms of like, what's happening in Lebanon is bad, 717 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: and it'd be better if it wasn't. But it's not 718 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 2: at the same tier as it has been in Gaza. 719 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 3: No, you're looking at will be three and a half 720 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: thousand compared to forty three and a half thousand killed. 721 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so many of those being civilians, right, people 722 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 2: who absolutely no business targeting, and like that genocidal violence 723 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: that we've seen in Gaza hasn't come to Lebanon, and 724 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 2: in part I think we can attribute that to their 725 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: being observed. Is there is that fair to say? 726 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 3: I think it's a fair point. Of course, there's there's 727 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 3: no real the un footprint in Gaza. My understanding is 728 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 3: it's extremely extremely light. Yeah, and as you know that 729 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 3: would say banished genre, yeah, whereas I mean uniform the 730 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 3: ten thousand troops in southern Lebanon, So there's very much more. 731 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 3: Maybe there's a more consciousness, but there's still Latin in 732 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 3: the place, but it's in terms of civilian casualties. As 733 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 3: we said, it's not going on as long as Gaza either. 734 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,800 Speaker 3: But on the we'll say the combat front, but not 735 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 3: exactly having things the wrong way either. They've been trying 736 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 3: to take the village of Kim for the last I 737 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 3: think two weeks, and my understanding is that haven't have 738 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 3: destroyed it, right, but they haven't taken it. And it 739 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 3: was like in two thousand and six they claimed that 740 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 3: the town of ben Schebail was the Hesivila capital of 741 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 3: the South, which and I supp wasn't the way it was, 742 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 3: but the turns of ent draws me. But they never 743 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,959 Speaker 3: controlled it. They were still getting attacked, you know, days 744 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 3: after they had seized it. Right. 745 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've never really established like control or like a 746 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 2: monopoly and non violence in the area. And yeah, they've 747 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: not done that this time. And I think I suppose 748 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 2: the last thing I wanted to ask about is like 749 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: we've just talked about like why this mission is important, 750 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 2: and we've spoken about four like you had your family 751 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 2: there when they were being bombed, and like this investment 752 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: in being there in Lebanon, being alongside the Lebanese people 753 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: in your case with your own family, like it's it's 754 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: one that island has had for a long time. Ireland 755 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: has historically, amongst European nations, been much better on the 756 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 2: rights of Palestine and Palestinian people, and then most European nations. 757 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 2: How is this peacekeeping mission perceived in Ireland? Like a 758 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 2: people proud that they're there? 759 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh, hugely proud. And and you know, the 760 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 3: Irish have always been extremely proud of what our defense 761 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 3: forces have achieved, despite us being a very small defense forces. 762 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 3: Like I think at the moment, between the Navy, the 763 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 3: Army and the Air Corps, we're probably looking at in 764 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 3: total in total, well yeah, very small and then we're 765 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 3: overseas in a lot of places as well, so like 766 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 3: to dup that from the nine thousand, you're probably down 767 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 3: to eight. Yeah, but we do tend to punsch up 768 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 3: over with internationally. We obviously had no colonial baggage, which 769 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 3: affects some other countries. Yes, and I think generally speaking 770 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 3: we're seeing as I'm not sure if annest Barker is 771 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 3: the right word, but certainly not as threatening and not 772 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 3: coming with an agenda, right yeah, whereas other other countries 773 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 3: might have a certain agenda for whatever political reasons at home. 774 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,919 Speaker 3: And it's certainly in Ireland s Caes As I said, 775 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 3: we were there from seventy eight two thousand and now 776 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 3: from two thousand and six to present day, and a 777 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 3: lot of it has been in the same general area, 778 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 3: so people would know Irish soldiers some Lebanese talk with 779 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 3: an Irish accent. 780 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 2: I've heard that. Yeah, there it's mad. 781 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And depending on what part of 782 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 3: Ireland the troops were from, you could even go further down, 783 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 3: like some of them talk with a very broad Dublin accent, 784 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 3: some of them would talk with a very broad Cork 785 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 3: accent because of that interaction. And I know one of 786 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 3: the first big projects the Irish did, certainly from the 787 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 3: early eighties, was to build an orphanage in a provincial 788 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 3: capital called Sipneyme and they've been doing that even when 789 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 3: we know troops there, guys were still sending money and 790 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 3: toys and everything. That's been demolished last week. 791 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 2: For Arty Jesus an orphan It's like story book evil stuff, 792 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 2: isn't it. 793 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 3: Like yeah, well, you know, it's just there's a lot 794 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 3: of evil stuff going on in the Middle East at 795 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 3: the moment unfortunately. 796 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I've personally seen hospitals bombed 797 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff myself, and it sometimes 798 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: doesn't even make the news. I mean, that orphanage evidently 799 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 2: didn't really make my news diet. Kevin, thank you very 800 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 2: much for sharing some of your experiences over there, and 801 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 2: I'd love to have you on again to talk about 802 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 2: the things you've the work you've done in Africa and 803 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 2: the line after after eleven and you've written a book 804 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 2: right about your experiences peacekeeping and other things. Where could 805 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 2: people find that? 806 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 3: Okay? So this initially started off as a lockdown project 807 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 3: during the COVID lockdown in the Central African Republican And 808 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 3: initially it was just from my wife and family. But 809 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 3: as it starts writing, you kind of started remembering and 810 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 3: it's not just your typical military guy tell us about 811 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,800 Speaker 3: how Bravey was. I have a separate career in mountaineering 812 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 3: and a separate career in archaeology as well, So it's 813 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 3: a kind of a much more different mishmash of of 814 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 3: of stuff going on. So that the book is called 815 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 3: a Lifeless Ordinary and it can be purchased online at 816 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 3: Male Books Dot, I m A Y or or chats. 817 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that balance. I've always thought that, like, 818 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 2: I'll go somewhere and I'll write about the worst things 819 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 2: I saw there and the worst days I had there, 820 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 2: and that'll be my story. But I've always wanted to 821 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 2: write about the mountains of Kurdistan are beautiful and I 822 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 2: really loved being there, And there are other places that 823 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 2: people think of them as wars, not countries, and I 824 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 2: think it would be I'd love to write about mountaineering, 825 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 2: backpacking in these places where often it's really sad that 826 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 2: you don't get to share that part. 827 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 3: I'll write about this in the book. I mean like, 828 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 3: I've lived a few times in Lebanon, and I've lived 829 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 3: and worked in Jerusalem a few times, and it's a 830 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 3: fascinating region. Oh yeah, and the people in both countries 831 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 3: some I have some really good friends in Israel and 832 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 3: have some really good friends of Lebanon, and I've been 833 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 3: treated extremely well by people in both countries. Certainly, if 834 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 3: you've an interest in archaeology, it's to be else could 835 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 3: put shit not one to be you know, like the 836 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 3: Phoenicians in Tier and no matter where you go in 837 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 3: Tire you can pick up Roman posturally or you can 838 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 3: see all these amazing sites, whether it's from the Phoenicians, 839 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 3: from the Romans, from the Trusaders. It's just it's all 840 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 3: there in front of you. 841 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, creative civilization there. Well, thank you so much 842 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 2: for sharing your experiences, Kevin, thanks so much. 843 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 3: Okay, cheers. 844 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,240 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 845 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 846 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 847 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 848 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen Here 849 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.