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Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of the Giant Subtle Podcast. John

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Speaker 1: Smoke with you today's guest former NFL general manager now

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Speaker 1: ESPN insider Mike Tannebaum. Mike, good to see a man, John,

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Speaker 1: And of course you can find the Giant Subtle Podcast

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Speaker 1: on all your favorite podcast platforms in the Giants Mobile app,

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Speaker 1: and it's brought to you by a w S proud

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Speaker 1: partner of the New York Football Giants. All right, Mike,

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Speaker 1: let's let's get into it here. Give me your twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand foot overview of this draft class in general before

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Speaker 1: we start knocking into some of the details. Yeah. Look,

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Speaker 1: I think the storyline is tons of pass rushers, not

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Speaker 1: enough quarterbacks, and um, when you think of even guys

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Speaker 1: like the Jermaine Johnson's of the world, who I thought

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Speaker 1: had a really good week in mobile unblockable down down there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and really like ironically we're at the Giants here, but

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Speaker 1: there was some like Carl Banks in this game because

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Speaker 1: I thought he's set the edge better than I expected, So, um,

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Speaker 1: I think he's gonna be a really good NFL player.

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Speaker 1: Then you get into the o Jabos of the world,

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Speaker 1: and then obviously Hutchison Thibadeau Um. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: really good group, you know, even the interior passwalk rushers

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Speaker 1: like Davante Wyatt Um. You know Trayvon Walker. There's you know,

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Speaker 1: some mixed feelings on him around the league, but it's

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Speaker 1: a really deep group at the pass rush position. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you about Trayvon Walker actually, because I think

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Speaker 1: he's interesting. You know, I watches his Georgia tape and

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Speaker 1: they I know he's a defensive end, but they almost

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Speaker 1: use him like an interior guy. Right. He's not lined

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Speaker 1: up outside the tackle a whole lot, and you don't

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Speaker 1: really see him use that speed and bend you want

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Speaker 1: out of an edge guy. So how do you think

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Speaker 1: he fits in the NFL? How do you think teams

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Speaker 1: view him? So I can mention that I compare him

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Speaker 1: to Tay Warren because I thought he was like a

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Speaker 1: little bit thicker. I didn't see like the twitchy edge guy.

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Speaker 1: Now I agree. That's what's the hard part though about

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Speaker 1: this process, because if he lost fifteen pounds, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to say that maybe he couldn't become more of like

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Speaker 1: the traditional defensive end lighting outside of the tackle. Um,

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Speaker 1: and it's playing at two and two seventies very different? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought they reduced him a lot to three technique

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Speaker 1: like he said, And he's an effective pass sorcer, good

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Speaker 1: use of hands, um, but you better have a clear

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Speaker 1: vision of what was he gonna play at. What's the

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Speaker 1: scheme fit? Is the interior pass grosser as the outside? Um,

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Speaker 1: there'll be a lot of discussions about him. Do you

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Speaker 1: agree that this is kind of a draft where a

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Speaker 1: lot of these boards are gonna look very different because

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Speaker 1: you just aren't that many true blue Chippers at the top,

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Speaker 1: and one team could have a guy at seven, another

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Speaker 1: could have that guy at twenty two. One team could

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Speaker 1: have a guy at twenty another one has him in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the second round. Is that kind of

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Speaker 1: what this draft is gonna be, just based on the

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Speaker 1: talent class? Yeah? Absolutely. And I think if you could

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Speaker 1: trade back you get a little volume in that area

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Speaker 1: that that would be well worth doing. Do you think

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Speaker 1: trade backs are gonna be available because obviously you need

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Speaker 1: to find the team that wants to move up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Maybe for a handful of players, you know, maybe a

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Speaker 1: Kyle Hamilton's so soon that's like a rare player, possibly,

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Speaker 1: but uh, I think more teams would want to move

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Speaker 1: back and move up. What are you hearing about Kevon Thibodeaux.

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Speaker 1: You know you talked to teams five six months ago

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Speaker 1: people think he would have been the first overall pick.

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Speaker 1: Now everybody I've talked to this week says, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're worried about you know, not necessarily as coach ability,

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Speaker 1: but consistent effort. You know, just what are you hearing

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Speaker 1: about him? And why maybe he the perception is that

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Speaker 1: he's sliding downboards. Yeah, because when you compare that to

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Speaker 1: a guy like Aidan Hutchinson, where it's you know so

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Speaker 1: much the other way, a thousand percent every play, all

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Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, I think Timoteau unfairly gets you know

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Speaker 1: thing a little bit. I think it's also that he'll

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Speaker 1: be a really good player. His length is hard to find.

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Speaker 1: He's an NFL like unlike what we just talked about

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Speaker 1: with Walker. He is a prototypical guy who I like.

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Speaker 1: I really like his length. So if he's in the

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Speaker 1: right system, with the right coach, I think he's somebody

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Speaker 1: that will be if he falls a little bit, somebody

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Speaker 1: will be really happy. Could you think he could be

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Speaker 1: in the mix of the Giants at five and seven

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Speaker 1: based on their scheme with mc martindale. Could he be

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Speaker 1: a fit there, Oh, no question about him. And they

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Speaker 1: need pass rushers like we've talked about that for years

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Speaker 1: down like the Giants just need more pressure players in

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Speaker 1: the front seven. Let's talk about the offensive one at

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Speaker 1: the top of this class. We just saw Evan Neal

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Speaker 1: with the podium this morning. I've never seen a guy

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Speaker 1: carry three d and forty pounds as seamlessly as that

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Speaker 1: guy looks like an NBA Power four for goodness sakes,

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Speaker 1: at three forty. It's crazy. You know, uh Icky Akwan,

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Speaker 1: you talks like you know he got accepted the Harvard

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Speaker 1: and Yale. He's just a really smart guy. Monster. What

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Speaker 1: do you think at the top of this offensive line class?

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Speaker 1: And if those top two guys are gone, how big

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Speaker 1: of a drop off is it for you to that

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Speaker 1: next group if the Giants have to go there at

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Speaker 1: five and seven, I don't think so. Like a cross

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Speaker 1: from Mississippi State, he's a really good player as well.

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Speaker 1: Um there there is good depth at the tackle position.

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Speaker 1: Um Meal to me is like fascinating because of his size,

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Speaker 1: Like say, you know he's a guy that you know

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Speaker 1: he's probably not as big as Mackay Beckton, but he

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Speaker 1: probably moves a little bit better. I was a big

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Speaker 1: Andrew Thomas guy came out because I thought Andrew Thomas

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Speaker 1: regarded me a little bit of the Berkenshaw Ferguson and um.

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Speaker 1: But I think if they could add, if the Giants

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Speaker 1: could add another tackle, you know, Soldier. Obviously I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine he'll be there. He's not gonna be yeah. So

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Speaker 1: to me, like, if they could add like again, maybe

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Speaker 1: they get a Cross if they move back a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because I think why I like those other two guys

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Speaker 1: a little bit more. I think Cross comes in as

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Speaker 1: a really effective player as a general management. You look

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Speaker 1: a guy like Cross, right, he really broke out this

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Speaker 1: passage that was his best year, and he plays in

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Speaker 1: a very unique college system. Never the three point stands

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to run block. But to your point, its

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Speaker 1: past protection. It's probably the best past protecting tackle in

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Speaker 1: the draft, right, better than maybe even Nail on the quanty. Right.

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Speaker 1: So how do you view that through that lens and

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Speaker 1: how he's going to translate? Because I was at Danie

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Speaker 1: Jeremy here, yes, and he's like, you know, I might

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Speaker 1: be a little biased because Andre Dillard was the same

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Speaker 1: type of guy and then he didn't really work out.

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Speaker 1: So how do you view a guy like Cross coming

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Speaker 1: from a system, Like, yeah, that's a good point by

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Speaker 1: DJ because of the Mike Leech impact. Because but I

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Speaker 1: would say this, two thirds of your your game is

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Speaker 1: passing anyway. I think Cross as the athleticism where he

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Speaker 1: can learn the other part of it. Um. But if

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Speaker 1: you come out of this with a good past protector

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Speaker 1: and he's booking with Andrew Thomas, I think you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be pretty pleased with the result. Are you good with

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Speaker 1: Cross at right tackle? Do you even consider that a

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Speaker 1: thing anymore? You should be much more a thing that

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Speaker 1: you know, the athletic left tackle, the power right tackle.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a little antiquated now, but agree with you,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially like coach day Ball now like he's

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Speaker 1: gonna get the all the quarterback's hands. It's gonna be

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Speaker 1: behind the line screaming like can you get out and block?

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Speaker 1: Like Cross could get out and block on the perimeter

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Speaker 1: outside the numbers. Like here's a lot of parts of

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Speaker 1: his game. I life for a general manager when you're

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Speaker 1: doing these interviews, you know, it's easy to figure out

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Speaker 1: what a guy can do now, right, all right, I

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Speaker 1: know this guy can execute this, will come in, we'll

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Speaker 1: do this. How do you try to figure out where

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Speaker 1: guys can improve and what guys are going to improve? Right?

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Speaker 1: Who's going to realize their potential? Because that's really the

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Speaker 1: trick in this whole process, right, and it's a very

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Speaker 1: tough thing to do. I'm just like so impressed by

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Speaker 1: the amount of fans you have here or that there's

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Speaker 1: just a plotting on every word you have. By the way,

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Speaker 1: for the folks, people are bench pressing about forty yards

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Speaker 1: from us, so that that's what that is. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: it though they were here cheering for you. They should be.

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Speaker 1: But the questions are phenomenal. I have to say, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: what was I'm sorry? Um? How do you figure out

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Speaker 1: what guys are able to meet their part entil and

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Speaker 1: actually improve when they get into your programs? All about

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Speaker 1: the intangibles, it's all about do they love football? What

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Speaker 1: are they gonna do in the off season? Are they

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Speaker 1: gonna be working on the weight roof getting stronger? All

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Speaker 1: those things are really important. How do you figure that out? Thought? Like,

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Speaker 1: how do you figure out which guys have those intangibles

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Speaker 1: who you are in life. We tell you treat people

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Speaker 1: that can't help you, the waight of the waitress, the

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Speaker 1: bus driver, the strength coach, the equipment person. You want

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Speaker 1: great guys that care deeply about football, cure deeply about

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Speaker 1: their teammates. Interesting, and that kind of goes into the

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Speaker 1: whole culture thing too, right, Yeah, And I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's a cliche, a little bit overused. Yeah, but what

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Speaker 1: I would say is, if you're the first one in

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Speaker 1: the last to leave, you're gonna be coachable, You're gonna

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Speaker 1: get better. Interesting. So, if you're Joe Shane, right, you're

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Speaker 1: just stepping into this building, you hire a first time

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Speaker 1: head coach, what are you trying to do in this

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Speaker 1: first draft to figure things out? And even maybe before

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Speaker 1: we even get to the draft, how are you now

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Speaker 1: handling Leading up the FRED you said you have to

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Speaker 1: get under the cap, your team coming off a bad year.

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Speaker 1: You're over the cap anyway, not the situation you want

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Speaker 1: to be in. So how do you try to manage

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Speaker 1: your cap situation freeing up enough money to a be

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Speaker 1: cap compliant, to try to give yourself some ability to

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Speaker 1: mold this team in the way you want to in

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Speaker 1: free agency, right, but not jettison good players that can

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Speaker 1: help you win games. Yeah. So so I my first

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Speaker 1: start with the Jets, we had two ones who took

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Speaker 1: two offensive linement to Brickshaw Ferguson, Nick Banal, you have

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Speaker 1: foundational players for a long time, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: where the Giants are. You know, starting over new GM

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Speaker 1: coach Dave all at the head coach, like, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get foundational players. They don't have to. Ideally there are

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Speaker 1: a people and eight players for more than that, you

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Speaker 1: ain't get a people that are can contribute in a

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Speaker 1: meaningful way for a long time because the people that

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Speaker 1: you drafted this draft, everyone's gonna look at and say like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is what we stand for. So I think this

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Speaker 1: is probably draft probably take a little less risk, so

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Speaker 1: then you're not maybe as concerned at getting the top

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Speaker 1: guy at that top position of value. If you see,

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Speaker 1: for example, a great center sitting there, you know, you

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Speaker 1: see centers go on the top ten, like we haven't

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Speaker 1: seen one center go in the top ten twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: If you're trying to sit down foundation, that's something you

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Speaker 1: might be more willing to do in a draft like this.

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Speaker 1: If you're Joe Shan, yeah, I think so. I think

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Speaker 1: you want to get again players that are like bed

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Speaker 1: rock players like you know, like going back to like

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Speaker 1: you know, Hutchinson versus Tibodeau, Tideo maybe the better player

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Speaker 1: long term, but I don't think you go wrong with

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Speaker 1: a guy like Aiden Hutchinson. And what do you give

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Speaker 1: mean to your program? What's the process right now? Then

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Speaker 1: as they're talking to these guys, and you know, this

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Speaker 1: is a huge NFL convention, right he's talking to people

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Speaker 1: around the league. As a general manager, what goals are

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Speaker 1: you trying to accomplish here when you're at the combine

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Speaker 1: From a roster constructing perspective and even from a draft perspective,

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Speaker 1: I think you're trying to collect information so you can

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Speaker 1: make the best strategic plans possible. If you were a

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Speaker 1: team looking for a quarterback, you have to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you can like Marcus Mariotta and Mr Robiski are

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Speaker 1: gonna have a lot more interest because of the way

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Speaker 1: right now, the Kenny Picketts at the Sam House look.

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Speaker 1: And that's just what you're trying to do, is you're

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Speaker 1: trying to synthesize all that information. John to make the

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Speaker 1: best of as you can. We'll get both like free

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Speaker 1: agency in the draft. You know, Joe Shane was asked

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Speaker 1: about whether or not they would think about moving se

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Speaker 1: Kwon Barkley this press conference. How would you handle that?

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Speaker 1: He's on the last year of his deal, right, and

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Speaker 1: he's coming off two injury plate season. So if you

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Speaker 1: train him now, you're really treating him at pretty low value. Right.

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Speaker 1: How do you weigh what you can get back from

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Speaker 1: now bringing him back for another year, then he might

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Speaker 1: have a free agency signing ever, running back to a

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Speaker 1: second contract. How do you kind of put that onto him,

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Speaker 1: mix and figure out what to do. Yeah, that one's

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Speaker 1: easy for me. He's a great player. Um, he's dynamic.

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Speaker 1: I know he hasn't been healthy, but those are the

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Speaker 1: players who are we're trying to get. Like we're not

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Speaker 1: trying to move on from the s kuon Barkley, it's

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Speaker 1: like we're trying to acquire those types of players. So

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Speaker 1: it hasn't been perfect, but I think he's so dynamic

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Speaker 1: in the passing game. I think he's such a weapon.

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Speaker 1: And I just feel like being around quarterbacks as long

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Speaker 1: as I have like you know, when they hit you know,

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Speaker 1: a checkdown and it goes for forty yards. They get

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Speaker 1: into a rhythm, they get some confidence. It's just really smart.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's like getting those quarterbacks big time

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Speaker 1: plays on easy throws is a big part of what

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Speaker 1: they I think he's a big part of the solution.

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Speaker 1: And you gotta figure too that a guy like Brian

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Speaker 1: Dable and Mike Kafka are going to be a figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to use him creatively in those ways.

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Speaker 1: Right do you think Brian Dabele would do a great

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Speaker 1: job of if he would take some of that shrimp

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Speaker 1: cocktail over your shoulder right now, and he would do

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Speaker 1: a really good job with that. So those little saying

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Speaker 1: elmos going on back there, I guess so like really

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Speaker 1: very good marketing for them. It is very good. You know,

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Speaker 1: no one likes to eat more than media people, you

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Speaker 1: know that's true. Um, that's why I'm such a good

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Speaker 1: fit to Dan do Jones. How did you try to

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Speaker 1: figure out what you have with him in year number

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Speaker 1: four so you can make an educated decision on him

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Speaker 1: if they don't pick up his fifth year option in May? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my my arrows up on him. It hasn't been perfect,

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Speaker 1: but you know, John Mara talked about that right, like

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Speaker 1: they have to put him in a position to be successful.

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Speaker 1: To be it always goes back to the offensive line.

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Speaker 1: They get that worked out, they get that solidified, and um,

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Speaker 1: they have a chance to really Yeah, when you look

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Speaker 1: at the options, I it a lot more into Daniel

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Speaker 1: Jones to see if we can make it work. And

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the quarterback landscapes just frankly not very good

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Speaker 1: this offseason. So where you find a better solution? How

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Speaker 1: do you fix that offensive line? Is? Right now, odds

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Speaker 1: are the Giants are only gonna have one guy coming

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Speaker 1: back from their offensive line last year, and that's Andrew Thomas.

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Speaker 1: You can have four news starters, not a lot of

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Speaker 1: money in for agency, you do the two first round picks.

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Speaker 1: So how do you go about trying to at least

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Speaker 1: get that offensive line back to respectability so you can

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Speaker 1: get a good, clean judgment on Daniel Jones. I think

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Speaker 1: you have to scour. I think it's adding one or

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Speaker 1: two in free agency that maybe not expensive guys, but

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Speaker 1: guys that could come in and really help you, and

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Speaker 1: then keep adding one or two every year in the

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Speaker 1: draft and try to go eight and nine deep. Because

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Speaker 1: over a seventeen game season, they'll they'll all play. Is

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Speaker 1: this something you can fix in a year? Is it

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Speaker 1: gonna take a couple of seasons to get there? I

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Speaker 1: think so. I think you can make big progress again.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Thomas keeps developing your draft. One you sign one,

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Speaker 1: it should look better. Maybe you bring one back from

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Speaker 1: that group. Um, I know guys haven't worked out. I

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Speaker 1: feel like we keep talking about the Giants offensive line,

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Speaker 1: pass rushers, but I think they could look a lot

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Speaker 1: better in a year. What do you think Giant Fenn

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Speaker 1: should be excited about with Brian Dable, Mike Kafka and

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Speaker 1: Wink Martindale, you know hitd their offensive defense. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: have the pros working with Brian. You're getting a guy

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Speaker 1: that's a great people person, really authentic. He's a guy

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Speaker 1: that is a great listener. When things go wrong, it's

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Speaker 1: his fault. When things go right, he gives out credit.

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Speaker 1: He's a selfless leader. Did you overlap with Joe in Miami? Yeah? Briefly.

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Speaker 1: How was that good? You know, look, they've done a

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Speaker 1: great job at Buffalo. He's deserved this opportunity and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, be interesting again. They've got some big decisions here.

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Speaker 1: Right with coming up with you know Knowli Dana Jones,

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Speaker 1: but Sa kuon Barkley and then finally on defense wing Martindale.

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Speaker 1: Obviously you've seen teams play against that type of defense

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Speaker 1: for a long time. How should the Giants try to

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Speaker 1: build so they maximize the efficiency of that aggressive defensive

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Speaker 1: apprepressure players. You would have pressure players, I think corners

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Speaker 1: that could cover on the back end. You know, he

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Speaker 1: comes from the Rex Ryan school where you know, we

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Speaker 1: loaded up at corner so we could blitz a lot.

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Speaker 1: And that's something I know that he really believes him. Mike,

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Speaker 1: this is great stuff, man, I really appreciate Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much, Cocktail I will Mike tannem On from ESPN,

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Speaker 1: former NFL general manager, thank you for joining us on

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Speaker 1: the John Subtle Podcast, all brought to you by a

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Speaker 1: w S proud partner of the New York Giants. Stay

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Speaker 1: tuned for more covers from the NFL Combine right here

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Speaker 1: on Giants dot com, the John's Mole Black, on our

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Speaker 1: social media platforms