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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Noah.

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Speaker 4: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 4: our super producer Andrew Treforce Howard. Most importantly, are you.

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Speaker 4: You are here? That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 4: want you to know? Hold up, hold the phone, fellow

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Speaker 4: conspiracy realists, hold off on the emails. This episode is

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Speaker 4: about religion. It may not be appropriate for all listeners,

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Speaker 4: but I would say, given all of our collective beliefs

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Speaker 4: or lack thereof, recognize the vast importance of religion, right.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the most fundamental aspects of being human.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, In this episode isn't just about religion. It's

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Speaker 2: about religion and abuse.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's why we have the disclaimer there, you know,

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Speaker 4: at the very very top, and we may well give

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Speaker 4: you a further disclaimer as we dive into it. For now,

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Speaker 4: you know, we have to acknowledge whether or not you

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Speaker 4: find yourself an adherent of a specific school of spiritual thought,

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Speaker 4: whether you're agnostic, whether you're an atheist, religious institutions have

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Speaker 4: a deep, indelible impact on your life. If you live

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Speaker 4: anywhere other than North Sentinel Island, you know a lot

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Speaker 4: about religion.

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Speaker 3: For sure.

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Speaker 5: I mean, whether you yourself are devouts, you surely have

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Speaker 5: people in your lives who are on spectrum of religious

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Speaker 5: belief and it's sort of just inescapable in day to

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Speaker 5: day life and it ends up being something that kind

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Speaker 5: of requires a little bit of navigation.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: We talked a lot about like how to navigate the holidays,

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Speaker 5: for example, and you know, talking to people with different

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Speaker 5: views and different opinions and Ben, you and I were

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Speaker 5: actually on a podcast the other day with some buddies

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Speaker 5: out of the UK, and one of them mentioned a

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Speaker 5: study that essentially mapped the brain when the topic of

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Speaker 5: religion came up, and essentially a change occurred that basically

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Speaker 5: represented shutting down the idea of the brain, sort of

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Speaker 5: shutting down to outside ideas because religion is something that

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Speaker 5: can be so set for individuals who don't really want

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Speaker 5: to hear alternatives because belief is very very powerful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Matt, that's the podcast that asked you if

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Speaker 4: you wanted to go on with us there. It's a

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Speaker 4: it's a podcast primarily about cannabis. They enjoyed the conversation

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Speaker 4: and they're just brilliant dudes. Name the show is high

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Speaker 4: on homegrown nice.

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Speaker 2: Well. I think one of the main things personally for

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Speaker 2: me about religion is that every one of the religions

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Speaker 2: that I've encountered over the course of my foury to

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Speaker 2: one years teaches things like selflessness. It's not about you,

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Speaker 2: it's about helping people. It's about being a good force

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Speaker 2: on the earth for you know, in service of whatever

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Speaker 2: deity that religion worships. And at the heart of all

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Speaker 2: of them, there's a very positive thing that exists in

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Speaker 2: every religion. This episode, and a lot of the problems

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Speaker 2: we've encountered in the past in other episodes have to

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Speaker 2: do with the people that end up controlling the human

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Speaker 2: beings that follow a certain.

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Speaker 4: Religion, right, Yeah, the bureaucracy, the doctrine. You know, if

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Speaker 4: you look at the essence, that's a beautiful point. If

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Speaker 4: you look at the essence of of I would say

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Speaker 4: most longstanding surviving religions, it comes down to the idea

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Speaker 4: of being a good person, regardless of a deity or

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Speaker 4: a concept that is purported or claimed to inspire that.

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Speaker 4: Religion has created so many amazing things. Right now, as

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Speaker 4: we record, civilization is still trying to figure out whether

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Speaker 4: or not religion is solely a human endeavor. Do other

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Speaker 4: intelligent animals have religion? This is a double edged sword.

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Speaker 4: As they used to say, it's a two sided coin.

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Speaker 4: I guess as all three D coins are. Religion has

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Speaker 4: also led to at the same time that led to

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Speaker 4: billions of positive outcomes those institutions, the bureaucracy. Right, A

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Speaker 4: spiritual thing is the creation of a higher power. A

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Speaker 4: religion or a dogma is the interpretation of that through

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Speaker 4: the lens of human experience. And as such, religious beliefs

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Speaker 4: and institutions have been historically responsible for unfathomable atrocities, conspiracies,

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Speaker 4: and crimes. And this is not throwing stone at any

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Speaker 4: single religion. This is an observation of the patterns and

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Speaker 4: the structures, and this is where we get to the

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Speaker 4: statistical inevitability of these kind of horrific things occurring over time.

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Speaker 4: The one that pops up a lot for us in

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Speaker 4: our explorations on this enterprise is, of course, the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 4: The largest denomination of one of the world's largest religions.

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Speaker 5: And just to say really quickly, the conversation that I

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Speaker 5: referenced that Ben and I had on High on homegrown.

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Speaker 5: I can't find exact details on the study that was mentioned,

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Speaker 5: but there are quite a few very interesting studies on

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Speaker 5: religion and the brain, and one that I did see

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Speaker 5: was there are ways of making people less religious by

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Speaker 5: introducing magnets, certain types of magnets and frequencies into their

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Speaker 5: brain that can actually shut down certain parts of the

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Speaker 5: brain that are kind of prone to engendering this kind

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Speaker 5: of deep, deep belief. But it does hold true that

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Speaker 5: this is such an ingrained part that it makes perfect

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Speaker 5: sense that people would be kind of guarded in that

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Speaker 5: way cognitively when it comes to somebody kind of challenging

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Speaker 5: their beliefs or challenging their religion, because the idea of

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Speaker 5: a dogma, it's not just about something that guides your

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Speaker 5: life or a set of principles. It is belief in

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Speaker 5: something that to you very much exists. We are the

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Speaker 5: stories we tell ourselves. That is the human experience.

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Speaker 4: So sometimes when another person has a different story, or

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Speaker 4: when their own story cast you in a different lay

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Speaker 4: that you do not agree with. You feel that your

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Speaker 4: reality is threatened. That's a very serious thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can also see why if abuse is carried

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Speaker 2: out by somebody who embodies that religious belief for you,

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Speaker 2: the cognitive dissonance that would occur if the person who

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Speaker 2: is both leading you in worship and telling you what

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Speaker 2: to do is also your.

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Speaker 4: Abuser and consistently gaslighting you. Actually it's pronounced jazz kidding.

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Speaker 4: And if they that person in power is consistently telling

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Speaker 4: you that these horrific things happening to you, sometimes at

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Speaker 4: their own hand, are part of the requisites for you

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Speaker 4: to be a good follower in this spiritual system, then

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Speaker 4: it creates, you know, as you said, at a massively

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Speaker 4: damaging cognitive dissonance. If we look at the conflicts that

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Speaker 4: things like the Catholic Church have dealt with over time.

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Speaker 4: You know, the recent sexual abuse scandals that rock the

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Speaker 4: church to its core and are continuing as we record now.

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Speaker 4: You've probably also heard of the crusades as well as

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Speaker 4: the inquisition. Tonight, we are exploring a story you may

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Speaker 4: not have heard. It's something that popped up in the

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Speaker 4: news quite recently, and fellow conspiracy realist we like to

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Speaker 4: brain trust and work as a group when we are

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Speaker 4: coming up with topics to explore for the show. And

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Speaker 4: Matt this stood out to you. You brought us to this.

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Speaker 4: The Catholic churches Sodolitium Christiane Vette. Be aware, once again,

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Speaker 4: this episode may not be appropriate for all listeners.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after some sponsors.

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Speaker 4: Here are the facts, all right. Not everyone is Catholic.

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Speaker 4: So we're going to give you the context of Catholicism.

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Speaker 4: And this will be familiar to many of us playing

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Speaker 4: along at home tonight because statistically, many of us listening

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Speaker 4: this evening are in fact Catholic. A lot of people

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Speaker 4: are Catholic.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, indeed, there are a whole lot of Roman Catholics

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Speaker 5: in the world, somewhere in the neighborhood of one point

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Speaker 5: three billion, meaning there are more Roman Catholics than all

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Speaker 5: other Christians combined, and more Roman Catholics than all Buddhists

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Speaker 5: or Hindus. Guys, I've been watching this show called Say Nothing,

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Speaker 5: that is about the Troubles, the period of social unrest

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Speaker 5: in Ireland, you know, with the IRA, the Irish Republican

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Speaker 5: Army basically going to war with the British government and

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Speaker 5: that very much was around a divide between Protestant and Catholics,

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Speaker 5: the Catholics there being the underdogs because the UK is

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Speaker 5: a Protestant nation.

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Speaker 4: We have some episodes of ridiculous history on that. I believe.

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Speaker 4: To this context of population and practice, there are more

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Speaker 4: Muslims than Roman Catholics. However, if you divide Islam by

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Speaker 4: Shia and Sunni, think of those as different spiritual traditions

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Speaker 4: or denominations or belief systems, there are still more Roman

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Speaker 4: Catholics than there are Sunni. There's still more Roman Catholics

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Speaker 4: than there are Shia. Catholicism, despite its ginormous size, is

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Speaker 4: run by one person. Historically, a guy is called the Pope.

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Speaker 4: You may remember having heard about him earlier. This position

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Speaker 4: is incredibly important and has been for many, many centuries.

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Speaker 4: The Church's central government is the Holy c See. Like

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Speaker 4: I see you. It makes decisions on issues of faith

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Speaker 4: and morality. And this is not like a democratic government.

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Speaker 4: You know, there are a lot of people, for instance,

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Speaker 4: in the United States, who might vote for a president

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Speaker 4: and then later have problems with specific aspects of what

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Speaker 4: that president does. The word of the Church, the word

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Speaker 4: of the Holy See, and the pope is indisputable law.

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Speaker 4: It is not up for debate, your negotiation if you

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Speaker 4: are an ardent Catholic.

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Speaker 2: And one of the big parts here is that it

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Speaker 2: is regulated internally. So when let's say a judgment is

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Speaker 2: brought down from on high, right from the Vatican, often

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Speaker 2: it will not be a legal judgment against a crime

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Speaker 2: or something like that. It will be an internally regulated

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Speaker 2: decision where the Church says, hey, you person who is

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Speaker 2: accused of this stuff, We've looked at everything, and now

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Speaker 2: we tell you what's going to happen. And it has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with the court of law.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, not a second law. Because the Roman Catholic Church

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Speaker 4: is a parallel human governance you could call it if

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Speaker 4: you wanted to be absolutely technical and diplomatic. It traces

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Speaker 4: its history as we go back to Jesus Christ and

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Speaker 4: the Apostles. Please check out our earlier episodes there and

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Speaker 4: to your point there, Matt. Over the course of the centuries,

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Speaker 4: the Church has developed a highly sophisticated theology and an

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Speaker 4: elaborate organizational bureaucratic structure headed by the papacy. The papacy

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Speaker 4: is the oldest continuing absolute monarchy in the world. And

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of procedure involved.

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Speaker 4: There are many different layers of we could call them

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Speaker 4: stakeholders or influencers that must be included before an official

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Speaker 4: decision is made. So for comparison, the Pope is not

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Speaker 4: just going on social media as an influencer and saying well,

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Speaker 4: I think this today. A lot of interplay occurs internally,

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Speaker 4: and there are multitudes. Like any bureaucracy, there are multitudes

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Speaker 4: of smaller groups existing beneath the umbrella of Catholicism. Often

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Speaker 4: they're known as societies, and they're all around the world.

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Speaker 4: Some are international orders, some are national, some are much

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Speaker 4: much more localized. For instance, I'm remembering here in our

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Speaker 4: fair metropolis of Atlanta, one of my favorite hangout spots

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Speaker 4: for a long time is a monastery in the metro

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Speaker 4: area called Our Lady of the Holy Spirit. We've talked

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Speaker 4: about in the past. Have you guys ever visited.

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Speaker 3: You've mentioned it many times.

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Speaker 5: Ben and I do have to take you up on

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Speaker 5: joining you sometime for a visit there.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like a beautiful spot.

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Speaker 2: The gift shop was ten out of ten.

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Speaker 4: There's a great Bonzia garden it's a firsthand glimpse of

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Speaker 4: monastic life for Catholics and non Catholics alike. It's a

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Speaker 4: real it's a really peaceful place. They're not going to

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Speaker 4: try to convert you or proselytize too hard. Pro tip.

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Speaker 4: The one thing to watch out for will be the

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Speaker 4: geese around the pond. Those are the most agro things

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Speaker 4: you have not visited.

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Speaker 3: No thank you, no thank you. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: be dragged to my watery grave by a goose. That's

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Speaker 3: not how I'm going to go out.

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Speaker 4: Then they're cool with the monks. I guess it's just familiarity.

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Speaker 3: I just need that monk energy. I don't think I

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Speaker 3: have that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just hang out with one of the monks.

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Speaker 4: But yes, it's a beautiful place. They have a museum

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Speaker 4: as well, now, which is more than worth your time

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Speaker 4: if you happen to be in the area. Anyhow, important

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Speaker 4: thing we have to remember about these societies, whatever they

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Speaker 4: may be, whatever particular specializations or priorities they hold, is

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Speaker 4: this they have to be approved by the Church to

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Speaker 4: be legit It's a very high bar to be approved.

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Speaker 4: Gaining this approval is a huge deal in theory that

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Speaker 4: approval carries with it an equally large share of responsibility

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Speaker 4: to the point we keep hammering about bureaucracy.

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Speaker 2: Well, and those folks live in are It's not in

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Speaker 2: all of these communities, but in a lot of the

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Speaker 2: Apostolic communities, especially lay communities within the Catholic Church. Members

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Speaker 2: of those smaller communities or fellowships commit when they become

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Speaker 2: a member to living in celibacy and in obedience to

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Speaker 2: whoever is running that. Essentially they would call it a

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Speaker 2: community or a fellowship, but running that small society that

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Speaker 2: exists there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and this mention of celibacy, which we'll get

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Speaker 4: to you an obedience also, these are going to be

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Speaker 4: familiar to a lot of people. Matt. Do you want

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Speaker 4: to say a little bit about the difference between, let's say,

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Speaker 4: a monastic community and a lay community.

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Speaker 2: Sure, a monastic community like that is an all male thing,

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Speaker 2: that is like monks. You hear that there's also types

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Speaker 2: of these communities for just women. Lay community is more

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Speaker 2: I don't know how would you describe it.

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Speaker 4: Ben, A lay community is composed of people who are

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Speaker 4: not themselves clergy, which later will you know they're like

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Speaker 4: picture a priest, a lay community. A leader of a

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Speaker 4: lay community can be very important and influential with the

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Speaker 4: church entire but they themselves are not part of the priesthood,

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Speaker 4: meaning that again they're bureaucratic implications. In August of last year,

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Speaker 4: the Catholic Church took serious action against one of these

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Speaker 4: societies we're describing a group called Sodilitium Christiane Vitea, also

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Speaker 4: known as the Soliditium of Christian Life. The Vatican expelled

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Speaker 4: the founder of this organization, Luis Fernando Figari. They conducted

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Speaker 4: a deep investigation into longstanding, terrifying allegations of conspiracy, and

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Speaker 4: even now critics say this is nowhere near enough to

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Speaker 4: address the crisis. It's a multi faceted conspiracy that they

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Speaker 4: argue continued for decades, and even now as we record,

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Speaker 4: the survivors of these events argue that the Vatican has

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Speaker 4: not been doing enough. So the question becomes what happened,

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Speaker 4: what is happening, and what happens next. Here's where it

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Speaker 4: gets crazy. Let's talk a little bit about Figari.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, born Luis or Lewis Fernando Figari Rodrigo and July

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Speaker 5: eighth of nineteen forty seven and Lima, Peru, Figari was

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Speaker 5: a lifelong Catholic, and in nineteen seventy one he founded

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Speaker 5: so d Lytium Christiane Vite, the first of several organizations

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Speaker 5: that he would have a hand in creating, including.

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Speaker 4: Oh h and real quick that the Latin there just

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Speaker 4: translates to Fellowship of Christian Life or something thereabouts.

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Speaker 5: And this is just one of several organizations that he

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Speaker 5: would go on to create, including the Immaculate Mary Association

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Speaker 5: found that in nineteen seventy four, the Christian Life Movement

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Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty five, and that Marian Community of Reconciliation

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Speaker 5: nineteen ninety one. This is a busy lad. In nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety seven, Pope John Paul the Second approved so to

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Speaker 5: Lytium as a society of Apostolic life. And let's you

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Speaker 5: know to your previous point in that differentiation.

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Speaker 4: Figari was a layman, Yes, yeah, layman with a lot

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Speaker 4: of influence in the larger ecosystem of the church. In

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Speaker 4: his I mean you just named all these things he

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Speaker 4: created right now. In his words, the purpose of SCV

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Speaker 4: is to recruit soldiers for God. This was, in a

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Speaker 4: larger context, one of several societies created as a response

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Speaker 4: or as a backlash to the left leaning theology or

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Speaker 4: liberation theology movement that swept through Latin America started in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen sixties, and these were both associated with various

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Speaker 4: political things. So the left leaning liberation theology is also

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Speaker 4: a little more politically left, and the more conservative stuff

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Speaker 4: that Fagari is working with continually encounters accusations of being

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Speaker 4: a little close with fascism. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: To be very clear, well and very close with the money,

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Speaker 2: the moneyed powers. There are groups like this that have

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Speaker 2: been looked at in Chile and Mexico and a lot

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Speaker 2: of places in Argentina that just have the money. It's

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Speaker 2: the human means. I have a lot of money, not

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Speaker 2: all of you know, not everybody, but that's just where

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Speaker 2: it leans.

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Speaker 4: That's the I think that's very fair to say, that's

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Speaker 4: the trend, you know what I mean. And at its apex,

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Speaker 4: in its halcyon days, this group SCV has something like

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Speaker 4: twenty thousand members across South America and the United States.

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Speaker 4: There are clerics involved. The layman and the clerics are

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Speaker 4: collectively known as sodolitz. That's an individual in SCV and

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Speaker 4: the members have their specialization or the organization does I

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Speaker 4: should say, and their priorities are to quote, this is

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Speaker 4: from them to take special care in serving the youth

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Speaker 4: and the poor in all spaces where culture develops, and

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Speaker 4: to be completely secular about this, again without denigrading any

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Speaker 4: spiritual beliefs. This feels in step with activities that larger

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Speaker 4: institutions will take to push their own goals, you know,

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Speaker 4: like you see student organizations spring up whenever the United

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Speaker 4: States desires a regime change, right, or like how do

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Speaker 4: you reach the hearts and minds? How do you get

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Speaker 4: the people? I think you made an excellent point there

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Speaker 4: about the finances, Matt Well.

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Speaker 2: But you can see on their website and stuff like

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Speaker 2: videos of its young people. Essentially, it almost looks like

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Speaker 2: a youth group out there doing service work, you know,

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Speaker 2: and serving especially in this case like people improve who

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Speaker 2: were impoverished and setting up you know, water systems for them,

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Speaker 2: and you can watch them doing it. It seems like

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Speaker 2: really good work.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, until you get to who do I thank for this? Right?

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Speaker 4: And thank us and do the following things? Yeah, SUV

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Speaker 4: again taking special care serving the youth and the poor.

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Speaker 4: And part that gets me is in all spaces where

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Speaker 4: culture develops.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting kind of vaguary.

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Speaker 5: And the members of this organization live in monk like communities,

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Speaker 5: sort of fraternal communities, and they practice celibacy. And this

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Speaker 5: isn't unique to this group by any means at all.

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Speaker 5: Multiple Catholic organizations advocate for celibacy, which is often seen

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Speaker 5: as a means of growing closer to God. I do

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Speaker 5: think it is worth mentioning here that while it's not

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Speaker 5: actively being phased out, there are conversations happening within the

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Speaker 5: Catholic Church of potential removing the requirement of celibacy, because

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Speaker 5: I think we've seen in a lot of these abuse

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Speaker 5: cases it feels like it could well be a triggering

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Speaker 5: event for some folks, you know, this kind of forced

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Speaker 5: celibacy and repression. Not to say that by being celibate,

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Speaker 5: people are, you know, pushed towards these kinds of unclean acts.

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Speaker 5: But if that urge maybe exists within people, the celibacy

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Speaker 5: could well be a trigger to kind of committing some

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Speaker 5: of these atrocities.

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Speaker 4: Well said, Yeah, and I appreciate the point that there's

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with being voluntarily celibate or a sexual or ace.

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Speaker 4: It's when you are forcing people to engage with that

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Speaker 4: practice and you know, spirituality. We have to say it.

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Speaker 4: We sound like broken records, PERHPS, but it's a highly

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Speaker 4: personal thing. We're never going to judge a person's faith

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Speaker 4: or beliefs as better than someone else's. So long as

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Speaker 4: you were not hurting other folks or attempting to force

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Speaker 4: them to do stuff, then do as thou wilt, do

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Speaker 4: what you want, Satan.

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Speaker 3: Shout out Satan, Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 4: That's where we run into the problem. You know, despite

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Speaker 4: its positive public image, SEV had a dark side and

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Speaker 4: it continued for decades in the shadows. Before we go

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Speaker 4: to an ad break, one more warning. The following information

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Speaker 4: may not be appropriate for all listeners. We're gonna pause

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Speaker 4: for a word from our sponsors, and then we're we're

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Speaker 4: diving into some very disturbing things with hopefully something like

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Speaker 4: a little light in the dark at the end.

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Speaker 5: And we're back and we sort of you know, hinted

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Speaker 5: at as before the break, But the Catholic Church has

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Speaker 5: had something of a rec over the past maybe decade. Well,

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Speaker 5: the allegation has been going much longer than that, but

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Speaker 5: it would seem like people are being brought to justice

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Speaker 5: and there are in conversations now happening within the top

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Speaker 5: leadership of the Catholic Church on how to address and

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Speaker 5: to deal with moving forward all of these instances of

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Speaker 5: rampant sexual.

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Speaker 3: Abuse that just keep on, keep it on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't stop.

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Speaker 4: And we probably this is the thing that hurts me

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Speaker 4: the most. We probably will never know the full extent.

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Speaker 4: We can tell you a little bit about what happened

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Speaker 4: with sev what's happening now. Dating back to at least

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Speaker 4: two thousand, numerous people came forward in one way or

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Speaker 4: another and claimed Fagari was far from what he pitched

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Speaker 4: himself to be in the public sphere. He was not

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Speaker 4: a benevolent celibate man working to spread the word of Christ,

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Speaker 4: focusing on helping youth in the impoverished. Instead, they said

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Speaker 4: he was a series real sexual abuser of children, especially

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Speaker 4: young boys. He was also deeply involved in financial crimes

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Speaker 4: and may indeed have been I guess you would say,

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Speaker 4: an input channel for fascist organizations. Yeah, and there were,

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Speaker 4: you know, by two thousand and three, we're looking at

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Speaker 4: multiple allegations of brainwashing, elitism, authoritarianism, conservatism, even really petty

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Speaker 4: petty means stuff seeking his dog on his followers, partially

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Speaker 4: for punishment and partially to get his own giggles as

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Speaker 4: a sadist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. According to some of the reports, they said he

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Speaker 2: liked to watch people experience pain and discomfort and fear.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And there were separate control tactics within the group,

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Speaker 4: yet they all occurred in step, inseparable from this sexual abuse.

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Speaker 4: In twenty eleven, they're victims of this guy's abuse on

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Speaker 4: record complaining to the Archdiocese in Lima, Peru. But then,

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Speaker 4: as earlier, neither the local church, nor the group of

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Speaker 4: bishops for Peru, nor the actual Holy See appeared to

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Speaker 4: take any action. The archdiocese would later say, hey, we

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Speaker 4: turned the case over to the Vatican immediately, which is

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Speaker 4: kind of their level of saying, we went federal with it.

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Speaker 4: But nothing happened. It did not happen the first time

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Speaker 4: someone came forward, nor the second, nor the third, nor

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Speaker 4: the numerous other times survivors spoke up. Someone apparently wanted

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Speaker 4: to keep things quiet. Speaking of quiet, Figari stepped down

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Speaker 4: from leadership in twenty ten, but was still very much,

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Speaker 4: you know, like a professor emeritus for the organization.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and he was still physically there, like if

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Speaker 2: you went to the main offices. Essentially, the dude is

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Speaker 2: still there hanging out just because he's not leading things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but also it's like official versus actual. He wasn't

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Speaker 4: officially leading things, but I'm sure if he wanted something

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Speaker 4: to happen, that thing occurred, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: So survivors of the abuse then as well as now

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Speaker 4: alleged the Catholic Church continually played down these allegations, not

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Speaker 4: just of abuse but of financial corruption. And their idea

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Speaker 4: is that the Church would have been happy to keep

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Speaker 4: sweeping these scandals under the rug were it not for

427
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Speaker 4: a couple of whistleblowers. We want to want to thank

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Speaker 4: Pedro Salinas, who, along with the journalist named Paula Ugaz,

429
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Speaker 4: wrote a book that exposed the SCV practices called Half Monks,

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Speaker 4: Half Soldiers in twenty fifteen. So this is four years

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Speaker 4: after the events of twenty eleven. It is five years

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Speaker 4: after the leader Fagari voluntarily steps down. This is what

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Speaker 4: finally triggers an independent investigation commissioned by the organization themselves.

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Speaker 4: Commissioned by SCV, it takes several years. It's later published

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Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen, but what they find is not pretty,

436
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 4: I guess we should say. Also, independent investigation means the

437
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 4: SCV didn't take some of their own members to look

438
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: into it. They hired outside.

439
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and this is really important. Just the thing

440
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: been mentioned already. So the Lima Archdiocese gets word of

441
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: this thing in twenty eleven, as we're saying, they say,

442
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: at least according to them, they immediately sent and all

443
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: of the information that was provided to them to the

444
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: Vatican directly. And then whatever we're talking about, the bureaucracy

445
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: of the Catholic Church, whatever bureaucratic body within the Vatican exists,

446
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: sat on that information and didn't do anything with it,

447
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: and the Archdiocese in Lima in Peru didn't do anything

448
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: with it. It took a book that we just mentioned

449
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: to be out in the public so other human beings

450
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: around the world could read about this and see it,

451
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: you know, in front of our in front of their

452
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: own faces. It took that to get an actual independent investigation.

453
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 4: And this independent investigation. You could argue that the SCV

454
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: is doing the right thing, right, that's true. You could also,

455
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 4: as some more cynical people would say, characterize it as

456
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 4: a pr move right now that this is in the

457
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: public square. The report is helmed by to America and Expert,

458
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 4: an Irish expert in abuse, and what they find is

459
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: again pretty damning. They say, look, Figari is a charismatic individual,

460
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 4: but then they also describe him as being and this

461
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 4: is a quote from the report, narcissistic, paranoid, demeaning, vulgar, vindictive, manipulative, racist, sexist, elitist,

462
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 4: and obsessed with sexual issues and the sexual orientation of

463
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 4: SCV members. That's a lot in one sentence.

464
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 5: Whoof sounds like a lovely fella, not yeah, pretty awful

465
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 5: traits unfortunately, not that uncommon. And people that wield that

466
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 5: level of power and control, people who seek out those

467
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 5: positions often do it for megalomaniacal.

468
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: Reasons, you know, for impure reasons.

469
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 5: Not always there people that are out there to do

470
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 5: good and they want to lead a community, et cetera.

471
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: But I do think sort of a N diagram situation.

472
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 5: Not all people that aspire to this level of power

473
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 5: are evil, but a lot of evil people might aspire

474
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 5: to such things.

475
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: Well, And we have to remember this guy has been

476
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: leading this thing he created since nineteen seventy one, so

477
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: a lot of the leadership in the community throughout all

478
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: of these years are people who rose through the ranks

479
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: within his community. And it doesn't mean they definitely experience

480
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: the same abuse by this guy, but maybe they did,

481
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: and maybe, you know, maybe that is another form of

482
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: control to then hold. Basically, all of your bishops are

483
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: all of your people who are beneath you, are people

484
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: you've abused, So there is a certain amount of coercive

485
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: control that exists there.

486
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: Potentially, Yeah, and this is this is the creation of

487
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 4: a system, of a cycle, a structure. The report found

488
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 4: that on multiple occasions, there's no other way to say it, folks,

489
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 4: Fagari sodomized his recruits and then forced them to fondle

490
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 4: him and each other, and may have also coerced them

491
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: into abusing other newer members of the group. And this

492
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: went beyond sexual gratification. This is a method of control

493
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 4: common in a lot of cult organizations, a lot of

494
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 4: coercive communities. Similar to Jim Jones from the People's Temple,

495
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 4: he would do the same thing. Similar to the disgraced

496
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: UK politician Cyril Smith, humiliation of the vulnerable was a

497
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 4: way to satisfy personal sadism, while also disallowing dissent. The

498
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 4: report found that Faghari liked, like, honestly enjoyed witnessing his

499
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: followers experience pain, discomfort, and fear at times his abuse

500
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 4: and his manipulation tactics, even when they weren't to the

501
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 4: level of physical sexual abuse, they occurred similar to the

502
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: way Bishop Edie Long assaulted young men here in Atlanta.

503
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 4: They occurred under the auspice of giving spiritual advice to

504
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: the victims, and sometimes they were told that the acts

505
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: he forced them to perform or that he performed upon

506
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: them were part of his mystical powers. Look the investigations

507
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 4: find that the abuse documented that we know about began

508
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: as early as nineteen seventy five, just four years after

509
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 4: the founding of SCV. Faghari molested a fifteen year old boy,

510
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 4: and at this point, four years in the child and

511
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 4: his family are already terrified of reporting the abuse because

512
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 4: Fogari has acquired so much power right and use that

513
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: power and that threat of humiliation or even physical harm

514
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: to the kid's family against him. Fagari, this is the

515
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: most important part, was not acting alone, because he was

516
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: forcing other members of the organization to perpetrate similar acts,

517
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 4: perhaps as a means of mutual blackmail, perhaps as a

518
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 4: means of proving one's loyalty. He was not a lone wolf.

519
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 4: He built an unholy system of abuse and institution of

520
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 4: cyclical assault.

521
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: It is a huge that's a great phrase, institution of

522
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: assault and mind games. Because this group a lot like

523
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: another group that existed in Chile in the same time.

524
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: There was a priest named Father Fernando Carradma. He's in Santiago, Chile,

525
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: and what he would do, I think is very similar

526
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 2: to this, where he would abuse a young man. Then

527
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: he would force that young man to go and confess

528
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: his sins, the young man's sins to another priest. That

529
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: priest would hear the confession and hear that he was

530
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: sodomized by the main guy, and that priest would say, oh,

531
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: be patient, be you know you're do this because of

532
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: your sins. Go forward, And that means that the abuser,

533
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: the main abuser, knows this is happening. And another priest,

534
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 2: not always the same priest, would hear the confessions. The group,

535
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: the circle of other priests would know exactly what was

536
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: going on. Just to really reiterate here, what Fagari is doing.

537
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: It is a whole group of people who are in control,

538
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: who have control over this one major thing in your religion,

539
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: which is confessing your own sins. They are using that

540
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: directly against you.

541
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. And you know, again to our earlier point, you

542
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 4: see the you see the same or similar systems with UH,

543
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 4: with multiple multiple religious organizations, and also with Jim Jones,

544
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: which may be a comp for the the Yanks in

545
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: the crowd. This leads us to the next logical question,

546
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 4: how does Fagari respond?

547
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: Well, he denies everything, of course.

548
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 4: Oh sorry, that's that's a terrible ode to say. But yeah,

549
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 4: he denies these allegations. Uh, and there are and he's

550
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 4: you know, he's saying people are mis contextualizing, or people

551
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 4: are coming from outside his enemies of the church.

552
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: Didn't get what I was going for. Guys, Wow, got

553
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: me all wrong. Wow.

554
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 4: And this does not stop the investigations. More investigators emerge,

555
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: more survivors emerge, The church itself is digging further, and

556
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 4: the further they dig, the more they find they have

557
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 4: to react. But the survivors find the church's reaction insufficient.

558
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 4: Instead of officially expelling Fagari from SEV the Holy See

559
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 4: puts him in a no contact situation. You have to

560
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 4: live apart from the SCV community, you have to cease

561
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: all contact with it. He complies, and the entire time

562
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 4: he maintains his innocence. In fact, he makes multiple appeals

563
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 4: over time, as we'll see, to something called the Apostolic signatora,

564
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 4: which is the oversimplified explanation is that's like the Vatican

565
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 4: Supreme Court. That's where your ultimate appeal goes. Again, bureaucracy

566
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 4: and the bureaucracy we all caught this. This seemed to

567
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 4: be one of the big complications from the Vatican's perspective.

568
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 4: So we've all heard the stories about priest who are

569
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 4: found guilty of similar acts of abuse. They can be

570
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 4: defract they can be excommunicated, they can be made no

571
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 4: longer priests, they can be kicked out right. But the laws,

572
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 4: the policies of the Vatican of Catholicism, they didn't have

573
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 4: a rubric on how to punish a layperson, how to

574
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 4: punish a non priest founder of a religious community. That's

575
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 4: where they're coming from from their perspective. We looked at

576
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 4: the rules and the rule book didn't tell us exactly

577
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 4: what we should do. Is that an unfair way to

578
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 4: characterize it.

579
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: I think it's the only way to characterize it. Been.

580
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, there's this book, it's called the Bible. You

581
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: could look in there. You can find some really inventive

582
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: punishments to enact on people if you want it.

583
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: Just saying pretty violent text.

584
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 4: I mean, let's exercise empathy. Let's imagine we're Pedro Salinas.

585
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 4: You know, we're other survivors of this system of abuse.

586
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 4: We're scandalized. We feel that our church, which is still

587
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 4: a core part of our identity, has betrayed us. You know.

588
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 4: Selenas calls the decision shameful, very similar to the verbiage

589
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 4: that Pope Francis would use about other cases of abuse

590
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 4: in the church. And he said, ordering Faghari to go

591
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 4: no contact and live away from the community was This

592
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: is a quote from Selenas a golden exile. And he says, look,

593
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: Fagari can live comfortably with all of his needs taken

594
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 4: care of. AKA, he's not really getting in trouble. To

595
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 4: your earlier point, Matt, about the difference between canonical justice

596
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: r Vatican bureaucratic justice, and secular or criminal justice.

597
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a Karadema guy in Chile was talking about.

598
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: For decades, he molested, sodomized, raped young men. And we're

599
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: talking about not a handful, We're talking about dozens and

600
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: dozens of young men. He did that too, and he

601
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: would continue to do that until they were grown, even

602
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: after they were married, even after they had kids. He

603
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: would continue to enter their homes and have dinner with

604
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: their families and then ask the now man who was

605
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: once a young man under his leadership, to go upstairs

606
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: and he would sodomize them again. He continued to do that,

607
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: and continued to do that, and guess what happened to him.

608
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: His punishment was to go live in seclusion and live

609
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: a life of penance and prayer, and he was forbidden

610
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: from having contact with any former parishioners and he was

611
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: no longer allowed to you know, he was defrocked, right,

612
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: He was no longer allowed to perform any public acts

613
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: of ministry. But that's what happened to him.

614
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 4: And this is Karadimon the el Boss community.

615
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: Yes, he just had to go away, and that's it.

616
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: You just need to go away for.

617
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 3: A little bit.

618
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 5: It sounds a lot like sweeping under the rug sort

619
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 5: of situation when there was already a six year gap

620
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 5: and even acting at all.

621
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is after the Vatican Church found him

622
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: guilty of sexually abusing minors, sometimes by force. That's what

623
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 2: they said. Yeah, go live a life of penance and prayer.

624
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 5: And that's after, you know, dragging their feet for six

625
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 5: years and acting on fogari by the way, in the

626
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 5: first place.

627
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, they said the information that they received had gaps

628
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 4: and was inconsistent. They also pointed out this is another

629
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 4: thing they'll come up in a third comp They also

630
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: pointed out that the initial complaints were anonymous. Now for

631
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 4: the safety of survivors and their families. Of course, you

632
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 4: want anonymity. You're living in a small town for instance, right,

633
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 4: and your abuser is the most powerful person in the land.

634
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 4: The Vatican said these anonymous complaints made a massive hindrance

635
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 4: for their investigation. Yet former SCV members say if the

636
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 4: Vatican or authorities from the Peruvian Church really wanted to help,

637
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 4: they could have followed up to wit. Critics claim the

638
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 4: Vatican did not follow up, and the Church claims they

639
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 4: originally could not. This led to further investigations. Maybe we

640
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 4: pause for a word from our sponsor and return with

641
00:43:51,320 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 4: more of the recent news. And we've returned. Let's fast

642
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: forward a little bit. January tenth, twenty eighteen, Pope Francis

643
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 4: has appointed Bishop Noel Londono Botrago of the Diocese of Erico,

644
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 4: Colombia pardon pronunciation, as the papal commissioner, the guy running

645
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 4: the continuing investigation. And just to be clear, this is

646
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: not our pal nol right, no no relation, no relation,

647
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 4: all right. And this bishop is working in step with

648
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 4: Cardinal Joseph Tobin from the Diocese of Newark. Their investigation

649
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 4: reveals more of the same, more evidence of sexual psychological abuse,

650
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 4: financial irregularities. There's so much the story here. Ultimately, on

651
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 4: March twenty nineteen. On March tenth, twenty nineteen, Cardinal Pedro

652
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: Berreto and other bishops Imperu. They announced the world. They say, look,

653
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 4: we've been following this the same way as you have, folks.

654
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 4: We have asked the Vatican and His Holiness to dissolve

655
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 4: SCV entirely. And there's an interesting quote from Cardinal Barretto

656
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 4: that I think we should share.

657
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 3: Right, this is what he had to say.

658
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 5: Personally, I think that when a religious organization has committed

659
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 5: a crime because it has to be said that way

660
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 5: from the point of view of sexual abuse and the

661
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 5: economic side, where there are also problems, it has to

662
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 5: be dissolved. The fundamental problem is that the founder is

663
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 5: a perverted person, and such a person cannot transmit the

664
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 5: holiness of life.

665
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's clearly something the cardinal was not happy

666
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 4: to write, was not giddy about it, but felt ethically

667
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 4: and spiritually required to do so. To the earlier excellent

668
00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: point about secular versus spiritual or religious punishments. The Peruvian

669
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 4: government considered criminal charges and everybody was wondering if this

670
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 4: organization would be reformed, you know, could you cause a

671
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 4: rise and save the wound or do you need to

672
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 4: simply get rid of this. This happened in step with

673
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 4: Oh gosh. They even put in the head sex crime

674
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 4: investigators for the Vatican, which I did not know existed,

675
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 4: but they do, the Maltese Archbishop Charles Sicluna and the

676
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 4: Spanish magistrator Jorde Berdomo. They interviewed more members of the SCV,

677
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 4: the alleged victims, the journalists who were threatened for talking

678
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 4: about this case. Because there was an active cover up.

679
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 4: I don't know if we'll talk about the the SCV

680
00:46:54,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 4: journalist who was accused of hacking and harassing and compromising survivors. Anyway,

681
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 4: if we fast forward, it's twenty twenty four. We mentioned

682
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 4: that Fogare voluntarily stepped down from leadership in twenty ten,

683
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 4: mentioned that he was put on kind of an exile,

684
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 4: what critics called a golden exile. A few years later,

685
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 4: in August of last year, as we record, Faghari was

686
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 4: officially formally expelled from SCV. No longer a member, no contact,

687
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 4: get them out, is what they said.

688
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think about that situation. So prior to twenty

689
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: twenty four, this guy who is a known abuser, all

690
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: of these investigations are showing it. All of these individuals

691
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: know that he abused them, and he is still being

692
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 2: taken care of by the organization. Like if you ever

693
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: if you've ever been to a church, often doesn't really

694
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 2: matter what denomination. If it's Christian, it doesn't really matter,

695
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 2: if it's Catholic, if it's you know whatever. The person

696
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: who is running the church, the person at head, is

697
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: generally taken care of by money that flows in through

698
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 2: the church, by the local church.

699
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 4: Right, Professor emeritiths position.

700
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they've often got a place to live, they've

701
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: got all of their expenses taken care of by the

702
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: donations of everybody who's there by the living, by the

703
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: expenses that everyone takes in and then give to the church.

704
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: So it is a weird situation to know that guy

705
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: who's your abuser is still being taken care of in

706
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: some way by your work and your money and your donation.

707
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 4: Like if you have an abusive family member and now

708
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 4: they're in an elder care facility and you're somehow paying

709
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: for them to continue existing.

710
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: But it's also directly linked to your faith in God.

711
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where it gets extra complicated.

712
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 4: It's the bureaucracy. It's confusing for a lot of us

713
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 4: to hear the idea of exsit but not expulsion, and

714
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 4: for expulsion to be a separate thing. There is bureaucracy

715
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 4: a play. The next month, September twenty twenty four, Pope

716
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: Francis expels ten people from the organization, not a no

717
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 4: contact thing, the same thing as happened with Fagari the

718
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 4: month previous. There's a bishop, there's several priest or clergy,

719
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 4: there are lay people, and they are all expelled on

720
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 4: charges of sadistic abuse. The Peruvian Bishop's Conference says this

721
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 4: came directly from the Pope, a special decision from Pope Francis.

722
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 4: This wasn't unprecedented, because Pope Francis, as we remember, had

723
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 4: previously spoken out against cases of abuse in the church,

724
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 4: expressing that it was shameful to our earlier comparison with Salinas.

725
00:49:55,239 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 4: But it was incredibly unusual in the way that they

726
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 4: announced this.

727
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 5: Right the fact that the offenders were officially and publicly named,

728
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 5: as well as specific details about their crimes, which is

729
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 5: a lot less sweeping under the rug. Ish about the

730
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 5: you know, I mean that seems to have been the

731
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 5: mo of the Catholic Church in the past, I would argue,

732
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 5: I think maybe we could all say that this seems

733
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 5: to indicate a more progressive approach to dealing.

734
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 3: With these kinds of you know, abominations.

735
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: With It's close to where we need to be. I

736
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: think we need to bring back lion fights, make them

737
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: fight the lions, you guys, I'm joking, but also not joking.

738
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, but publishing the specificity, I'd agree, it's close to

739
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 4: where it needs to be. But it's it's not quite

740
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 4: there yet, also catching up with the times by saying

741
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 4: someone was hacking the communications of survivingse harassing them on

742
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 4: social media. There were high ranking people expelled in this order,

743
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 4: the most high ranking archbishop Jose Antonio Igurin. This guy,

744
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 4: like Thagari, had already been kind of forced out or

745
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 4: forced into exile. He had resigned as bishop in April

746
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty four, and the Vatican Embassy realized this

747
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 4: specificity was somewhat unprecedented, so they went a little further

748
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 4: and issued a statement where they explain why they are

749
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 4: expelling this group of individuals. We've got a quote here

750
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 4: that I think will give us a little bit of

751
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 4: insight into their internal logic.

752
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 5: To take such a disciplinary decision. Consideration was given to

753
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 5: the scandal that was produced by the number and gravity

754
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 5: of the that were denounced by victims, which are particularly

755
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 5: contrary to the balanced and liberating experience of the evangelical councils.

756
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 4: Which seems overly I mean overly wordy. Perhaps definitely not dismissive,

757
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 4: but in plain English, they're saying, so many people experienced

758
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 4: so many terrible things that are in direct opposition to

759
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 4: why like the point of these organizations existing, we had

760
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 4: to do something. And then Pedro Salinas, again a whistleblower,

761
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 4: hero of the story, he talks with the Associated Press

762
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 4: and says, look, this is very good news, but remember

763
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 4: for twenty four years of impunity. And he also said,

764
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 4: still not good enough. Close to where we need to be,

765
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 4: but not close enough. You should dissolve this organization entirely.

766
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 4: And you did not get everyone. You only got what

767
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 4: eleven out of how many We still don't know how

768
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 4: many people were abused, how many people participated in the abuse,

769
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 4: and to your point, know what the then diagram of

770
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 4: that institution of abuse may be.

771
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, hard to wrap your head around.

772
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 2: It's just horrifying.

773
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

774
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 4: An SCV, by the way, remains active as we record.

775
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 4: Fagari is alive as well. He's not incarcerated, live in

776
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 4: that golden exile, I guess.

777
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And there are videos of the guy leaving

778
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: and he just it's I don't know, go look at

779
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: a picture of him.

780
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 5: Just there's a vibe, there's a gutaway vibe.

781
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 3: And you know, and I think we've.

782
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 5: Something that we talk about in the show all the

783
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 5: time is kind of the banale body of evil, the

784
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 5: absolute commonplace nature of it. It's unfortunately not unique at all,

785
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 5: nor is this situation. And I forget who said this earlier,

786
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 5: but the fact that this is what we see, what

787
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 5: about the ones that we don't see. There's so many

788
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 5: cases like this that have almost certainly been completely buried.

789
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 5: So just as the SCV itself isn't unique, neither is

790
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 5: it scandals and conspiracies.

791
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: Well, there are a lot of organizations out there that

792
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: are essentially on paper, and when you go and talk

793
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: to somebody who's a representative of the organization, it seems like, oh,

794
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to do God's work here. I'm going to

795
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: help people who are less fortunate than I. I'm going

796
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: to help people who are in need, especially children especially,

797
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: you know, just anyone who needs water and food and clothing.

798
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: I can go and do that, which is what the

799
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: Bible tells you to do. You to give up all

800
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: your worldly possessions and go help people if you're actually

801
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: following the Bible. But and this is these are organizations

802
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: that on paper say that's what you get to do.

803
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: But there and there were many of them, just like

804
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: the one that we mentioned earlier, right the Bosque community

805
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 2: that we mentioned with the Fernando, just like that organization,

806
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 2: Just like there's another one in Mexico that was exactly

807
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: the same, same type of abuse from the leader, the founder.

808
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Legion of Christ. The founder, Marcille Marcel de

809
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 4: Gaiado was similar to Fagari, was quite influential and powerful

810
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 4: in the overall structure of the Catholic Church. He was

811
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 4: one of the boys of Saint John Paul the Second.

812
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 4: He was friends with him, they hung out and he

813
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 4: was later del Gliado was later found to be a

814
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 4: serial sexual abuser. He fathered as many as six children.

815
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 4: He possibly abused several of his own children as well,

816
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 4: and he built a secretive cult like organization to hide

817
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 4: his double life, to bring people into this unholy activity.

818
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 4: The Vatican sanctioned him in two thousand and six after

819
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 4: decades of allegations. And the folks who sanctioned him, who

820
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 4: slapped him on the wrist and put him in exile,

821
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 4: that was the same investigative body, or they called a

822
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 4: congregation that received the SCV complaints. We've already talked about Karadima.

823
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 4: We're showing you the larger picture, right, this case of

824
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 4: fugari is we could argue at least a partial win

825
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 4: for the good guys and the survivors, because think about it,

826
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 4: you know, enormous odds are against them, socioeconomic, socio political,

827
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 4: even the spiritual odds, the bureaucratic, spiritual odds, the dogmatic

828
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 4: odds are against them. But because of their courage, the

829
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 4: conspiracy was uncovered. At least some people are held accountable,

830
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 4: and our hearts, I think we can say this unanimously,

831
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 4: our hearts go out to the survivors, and go out

832
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 4: to your loved ones, and thank you again for speaking

833
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 4: truth to power. But this all brings us to the

834
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 4: following question, what's next? You know, Noel Matt we I

835
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 4: think we all. We all pointed out at various times

836
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 4: in this investigation that the church has weathered a lot

837
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 4: of similar scandals, and it's fully possible that more scandals

838
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 4: have yet to come to light. The thing that really

839
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 4: bothers me is it's fully possible that scandals like this

840
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 4: have been successfully covered up in the past and the

841
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 4: public may never know.

842
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 3: There's no doubt.

843
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: What bothers me is that these scandals come to light,

844
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 2: facts are known, and the punishments are still internal and

845
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: not automatically turned over to you know, US authority or

846
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: a country's investigative authorities. It reminds me. It reminds me

847
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: a lot actually of the Camp Hell show that our

848
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: buddy Josh Thain created and we talked to him back

849
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: in June of twenty twenty one and Awake, Yes called

850
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: Camp Hell and Awake. You can go listen to it

851
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 2: now if you want. But it reminds me of that.

852
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: Like in that case, it's Wilderness Therapy. It's not a

853
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: service organization. It's not linked directly to a church, but

854
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 2: religion is heavily baked into it, and it is just

855
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 2: a human being or set of human beings that founds

856
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 2: an organization that in some way is based on service.

857
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: Because again, in that organization, it was just a bunch

858
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: of kids out there building stuff out in the woods.

859
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: In this case, it's mostly kids out there building stuff

860
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: in impoverished parts of the country they are living in

861
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 2: and they're just being abused by the human beings that

862
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: started the organization. Yeah, yeah, and they just need to

863
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 2: go to jail or freaking fight a line.

864
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: Heed.

865
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 4: There need to be real world criminal and secular punishments, right,

866
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 4: This shows us, I think one of our most crucial

867
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:23,479
Speaker 4: points here. It's not just the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church,

868
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 4: due to its size, due to its reach, due to

869
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 4: its power and its long history, is more visible. But

870
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 4: you don't need a Catholic Church for this kind of

871
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 4: evil to exist. And it brings us to ask what

872
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 4: else is out there? What else is there that people

873
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 4: in power don't want us to know?

874
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, you know, there certainly feel like there

875
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 5: are parallels with what's the allegations against p Diddy, for example,

876
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 5: the facts of the case of Jeffrey Epstein and who

877
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 5: was involved with him. People that we think of as

878
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 5: being completely safe, you know, in terms of like celebrity types,

879
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 5: it would never imagine be running in those kind of circles.

880
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 3: It's just you're right.

881
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 5: Evil is not unique, and with great power comes the

882
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 5: possibility for great abuses of power, and those types of

883
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 5: folks that seek that level of power and influence can

884
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 5: have very unclean motives.

885
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 2: In the end, it's coercive control sought by those evil things.

886
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 4: Yep, we are on the same page here. Survivors anybody

887
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 4: affiliated with this specific organization or organizations of similar ILK

888
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 4: We're holding you in our thoughts and we want to

889
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 4: hear from you, so let us know what you think.

890
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 4: We try to be easy to contact. Send us an email,

891
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 4: call us on a telephone, find us online.

892
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: That's right.

893
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 5: You can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff, where

894
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 5: we exist. On Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where

895
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on YouTube with video content color for

896
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 5: your perusing enjoyment.

897
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: And on x FKA Twitter.

898
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 2: Hey, do you want to call us? Tell us your story.

899
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 2: We would love to hear it. Our number is one

900
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: eight three three st d WYTK. When you call in,

901
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 2: it's a voicemail system. You will hear a familiar voice

902
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: than a beep. Then you've got three minutes. Say whatever

903
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: you'd like do. Give yourself a cool nickname and let

904
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 2: us know if we can use your name and message

905
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 2: on the air. Within the message, If you've got more

906
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 2: to say than could fit in a three minute voicemail one, instead,

907
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email. We are It's.

908
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 4: One of the best ways to contact us. We are

909
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 4: the entities that read every piece of correspondence we receive.

910
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 4: Please give us leads for other episodes, give us your

911
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 4: personal stories so long as you feel comfortable. We have

912
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 4: your six, we have your back. Join us out here

913
01:01:54,280 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 4: in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

914
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

915
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

916
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.