WEBVTT - Parasocial Relationships: That Podcaster is Your Friend! 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.200 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.480 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:15.840 Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.560 should know a little close to home edition. 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:24.239 Yeah right. And in two ways. One is that as 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:29.040 podcasters we are on one end of the parasocial relationship 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:35.440 relationship correct, yeah. And the other is like I have these. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:37.360 I don't know if you do or not, but I 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.440 have parasocial relationships of my own with podcasts. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:45.640 I don't have any because I'm saying right, I'm totally kidding. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.280 I don't think I have any. No, I don't have any. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.479 I think what it is has nothing to do with sanity, 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.680 my imagination. It's just not that vivid. Oh okay, you 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.440 know what I mean? Because I think for this to set, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.200 you have to be able to imagine yourself, like in 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.640 the room with the people you're listening to, for example, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.560 or what you would do after they stopped filming the 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:10.080 TV show or something like. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.920 That, Like any you're big into comedy, any of your 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.720 big comedian people that you love, you know, never think, 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:17.880 like God, we would be friends. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.080 No, I really don't. I don't I feel like deficient 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.559 because of it. But I genuinely do not have any 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.280 parasocial relationship that I can bring to mind, and I 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.800 don't remember ever having that. I think I just assumed 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.960 that they wouldn't like me, rather than they would like me, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.280 which makes it much harder to have a parasocial relationship 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.560 with somebody you just assume you wouldn't get along with 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:41.160 very well. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.559 Well, then by some estimates, you're part of the forty 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.960 nine percent of people of Americans, that is that do 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.120 not have parasocial relationships. And if you're yelling at us 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.560 right now because we haven't defined it yet, just a 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.640 parasocial relationship is a It's like when you listen to 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:04.120 a podcast and you think, I know those guys, they're 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.800 like my friends. We would be so we would be 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.040 such good friends. In real life, it's a one sided 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.600 relationship between a consumer of a thing, a fan of 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.920 a thing, and a public figure. 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:17.920 Yeah. In one of those papers you sent me, I 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:23.359 saw it described rather aptly as a one sided intimacy 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:24.320 at a distance. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:26.720 Yeah. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.240 And in our go go be normal as much as 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:36.919 you can type society, that sounds a little like off base, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.440 a little weird, a little out there to some people, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.440 I should say, to others, you're it's like, well, yeah, 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.400 of course this is normal life. But we should say like, 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:51.560 there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It can go wrong, yeah, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.239 as we'll see, but at its base, having a parasocial 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.320 relationship does not make you a loser, a loner, social misfit, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:06.160 a weirdo. It actually makes you slightly healthier emotionally intellectually 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:07.320 in my opinion. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.280 Yeah, And as we'll talk about, studies bear that out 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.519 that it's you know, I think they put it generally 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:17.799 about three to five percent of the time, it can 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.360 go south, and we'll talk about that kind of stuff, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.079 when it becomes obsessive and stuff like that. Dam But yeah, 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.519 for the other ninety five to ninety eight percent, to people, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.840 it actually provides quite a benefit because it makes someone, 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.160 It makes someone feel good, and it makes people laugh 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.640 a lot of times, and I feel like comedy a 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.160 lot of times is what you associate more. I'm sure 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.400 you can have parasocial relationships with like Peter Jennings or 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.520 something sure or Dan Rather, I'm sure that. 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.240 Happens hard to those we'll see. 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.040 You generally think of it in terms of like either 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.280 a podcast or a TV show when you when you 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.240 would sit around and you would think about a which 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.720 friend am I or which sex and the city character, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.600 you're such a Miranda, Like, that's the kind of thing 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.120 that we're talking about here, when people identified so much 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.120 that it's like a real relationship. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.720 Yes, And I want to say I am in that 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.160 very unusual and unique position, as are you and as 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:24.960 our pastors. Right, I totally am a Miranda. Actually, no, 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.440 what's the other one's name? Who is married to Kyle McLaughlin. 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.680 I feel like I identify more with her. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:35.640 Yeah, Charlotte, Charlotte. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.599 Yeah, I'm a total Charlotte. What I was going to say, though, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.480 is I'm in the unique position of being on the 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.200 opposite side of a parasocial relationship. That's a very rare 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.920 place to be. And I can tell you that I 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.400 do enjoy hearing about that, Like when we're at live 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.240 shows and people tell us like where they think of 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.520 us as like their friends or whatever. I always love 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.920 to hear that kind of thing. Yeah, me too. Yeah, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.320 so I don't want to I don't engage with them myself, 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.160 but when they are thrust upon me, I'm like, oh, yeah, 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:08.680 I love that. 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.839 Yeah, and we feel the same way generally, and most 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.840 times when we meet listeners who are awesome like that, 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.200 if we did know each other, there's a good chance 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.080 we might be friends. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.560 Yeah. I think that's another thing too, is I think 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.480 that's kind of like that that weirdo view of it, 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.680 Like the irony of it is they're so far off 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.320 base that like, if they ever actually did meet the 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.520 person in real life, they would be horribly crushed and 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.960 maybe even mocked. I mean, at least from our experience, 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.760 most people who do come up and tell us that 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.119 they think of us as friends do seem like people 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.239 we would probably hang out with in real life. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.920 Totally. There's also an I'll talk about this a little bit, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.960 I guess later, But I'm in a situation where a 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.640 lot of the podcasts that I consume are comedy podcasts 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.720 where I do kind of know the person. Oh okay, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:03.200 but that's a quasi parasocial relationship because I find myself 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.760 thinking I'm better friends with them than I am, when 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.520 in fact they are just industry colleagues that are loose pals. Perhaps, 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.359 but I think, like, oh yeah, me and Scott Ackermann 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.599 are like great friends because we have so much in common. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:19.719 Yeah, he does not think that. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.560 And Scott's a great guy, super nice. He's always been 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.440 very nice. I'll be on the shows occasionally. We both 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.720 worked with him a little bit, but we're not great friends, 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.279 even though I feel like we are because I listen 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:33.440 to so much of his stuff. 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.720 Okay, I'm glad you let me teck somebody. I was 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.080 going to ask you who you have parasocial relationships with, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:43.960 but I feel like quasi para social relationship is very niche. 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:46.600 Yeah, probably so, So let's. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.640 Let's begin at the beginning. These things haven't been around forever, 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.880 mostly because they're a product of media communications. They would 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:58.000 not exist otherwise because without media, you would actually be 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.640 interacting with this person faced. And that's the big rub 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.720 of the whole thing is that other person is on 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.120 the other side of a screen, they're in your headphones. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.160 They're not there physically, but the way that they present 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:16.480 themselves to you tricks us into becoming friends with them 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.240 or having an affinity for them, just as you would 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.400 if you met them in real life. And the whole 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.240 thing is traced back to a couple of sociologists named 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.680 Donald Horton and Richard Wall who back in the fifties 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.960 started noticing that people would actually talk back to their 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.440 TV and that they as sociologists, they said, this is interesting, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.280 that's kind of unusual. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.160 And probably new people don't TV. 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.080 And I think I'm sure it existed before in radio. 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.119 But as we'll see, media has added to itself, added 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.480 to itself, added to itself over the generations, over the 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:55.600 last half century or so to make it more likely 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.480 that you're going to have a parasocial relationship with somebody 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.040 in me, and a deeper one too. But the whole 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.000 thing started with TV and people shouting at it, and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.320 what they coined was a term called parasocial interactions. 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.040 Yeah, and that's I think TV also was all of 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.440 a sudden you had a couple of other ingredients to 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.320 the recipe that could spawn a parasocial relationship, which is 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.760 repeated consistent faces that you're seeing. It's not like, you know, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:26.600 go into a movie, which you could do before the 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:31.200 you know, nineteen fifty six, that person being in your house, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.960 in your living room every week or even every night 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.600 was a different thing. And they were talking to you, 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.400 they were looking at your face, and there were new 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.319 kinds of media personalities that they hadn't seen before, which 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.960 is like game show host, talk show host, newscasters, people 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.200 looking into the camera and talking to you the home audience. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.160 And that changed things, and they were fascinated by what 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.840 they called this relationship between what they dubbed persone who 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.559 were or you know, the Dan rathers or whatever. I 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.000 don't know why Dan rather so on the tip of 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.280 my brain. What's even doing these days? He's writing and stuff, right. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.080 I don't I don't know. It's been a while. I'n't 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:13.920 heard from it in a while. He hasn't called me back. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.880 I think he's I think he's pretty active on social 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.920 media and stuff. Anyway, it was a new thing where 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.960 there were people in your room, these persona talking to 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.600 your family, and it was there was a lot of 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.480 small talk that had never been around before, like on 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.480 the news when you you know how newscasters are they 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.880 We've talked about it in the weather Person episode. The 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.240 change to like the more familiar banter and small talk 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.719 and you know, let's talk about our lives a little bit. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:46.520 Even all of a sudden, people are being let in. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.840 Yes, and that's a product of the whole thing, Like 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.600 that's purposeful and what the whole thing creates is the 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.040 illusion of intimacy. And that's I disagree with by the way, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:58.000 that it's an illusion. 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:00.839 Well yeah, I mean that's what and Wall call that. 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:02.439 I think it's a type of intimacy. 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.080 Okay, so what would you call it? 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.079 Intimacy? One way intimacy? 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.160 I guess. Okay, yeah, I'll agree with you on that 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.720 for sure. I think these guys were just like, what 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:18.200 the heck is going on? So, yeah, you're kind they weren't. Yeah, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:23.200 so we'll just call it this type of intimacy or 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.000 one sided intimacy. And like I was saying, like they 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.520 purposely cultivated this as they started, not Wall and Horton, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:35.680 but TV producers found out very quickly that like people 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.960 would write letters to you know, their favorite newscaster or 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.720 their favorite soap opera character or something like that that 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.920 was kind of new again. People would yell at the radio, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.520 or they would listen to a specific news announcer on 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.960 the radio or something like that that happened before. But 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.080 that whole thing of being able to look at you, 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.720 of being able to talk to you directly, seemingly again, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.960 it trigger something in us that radio could never do. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.199 Yeah, And like you said, I think I cut you off. 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.240 You were talking about the fact that it wasn't an accident. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.400 They worked on this. They were told to look directly 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.600 into the camera lens, and they were told to make 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.920 small talk and have friendly banter between each other, and 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.520 to have like a friendly tone. It was all engineered 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.840 to get people to watch you more. It wasn't engineered 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.239 so parasocial relationships would form, but that was a byproduct 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.320 of them trying to get their game show host or 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.520 their newscaster to connect with an audience, right. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.199 So some other things they would do is characters would 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.400 be boiled down into kind of thumbnail sketches of a person. 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.560 So you have like Joey, who's kind of like the 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.319 ditzy one, or Gracie Allen was the original I think 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.679 kind of dits on TV. And when she entered the 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.360 room or when Joey entered a scene, you knew something 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.280 like hilarious was gonna happen because they were just so 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:03.360 ditzy sense you know Joey like you don't know matt 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.880 LeBlanc at all. You know Joey the character that Matt 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.760 LeBlanc is playing. Uh, you doing exactly. You know, he's 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.720 probably going to say something like that, he's going to 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.480 like go after some girl or something like that. You 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:21.040 can predict his actions, which means that you have some 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.080 sort of relationship with them, and that you recognize his 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.440 personality and you accept it and you can predict it, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.120 and that in and of itself is a level of intimacy. 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.080 Yeah, and you don't even necessarily have to identify with 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.840 that particular character. I think in the case of something 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.720 like friends or Sex in the City, a lot of 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.640 people just said, Hey, this is like my group of friends, 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.040 and Joey is like my friend Josh and Chandler is 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.679 like my other friend, and that kind of thing. 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.680 I got to wait, whom I'm like? 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.360 Who I was talking about a different question? Oh okay, I said, 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.360 you're like Joey, but you're not like any of the friends. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:12:59.960 No, No, I'm not. 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:01.800 Maybe a bit of a bit of a Rachel. 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.480 I don't know, kind of happy about that. We're going 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.160 with friends and Sex and the City for the rest 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:06.720 of the episode. 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:11.480 Huh, I guess so. Another thing that we did on 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.240 our own very show was that they did back then 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.640 to engineer this kind of connection was call in shows, 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.520 reading fan mail on the air, stuff like that, interacting 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.960 with the audience, which is obviously ramped up in the 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.040 day of social media, which we'll get to because that's 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.640 a whole different bollowax these days. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.439 Yes, And one of the reasons that Horton and Wall 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.280 created a new term for what the person is who 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.120 the person is having a parasoxial relationship with persona or 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.360 a persona is because that's not again, it's not a 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.480 real person, even if they're not playing a character. And 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.480 you know, the newscaster is playing himself the newscaster. He's 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.360 not talking about like the horrible fight he and his 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.040 wife had the day before. He didn't get much sleep, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.120 and he's not really feeling good. He's never going to 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.240 bring that up. All he's ever gonna show you is 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.240 at least a neutral mood, if not a positive mood. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.640 And so after seeing that time and time and time again, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.719 you develop an idealized vision of this person, this persona 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.120 that can't possibly hold up in reality, and in that sense, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.440 that makes the parasocial relationship that much more seductive, because 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.400 what that persona can offer you is an idealized friend. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.640 Dave helps us out with this, and he said that 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.040 the cheery game show host is never has a bad 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.600 day in snaps at you, and I would caveat that 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.680 with except Alex Trebek, but for the most part, all 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.040 the other ones wouldn't. They're always pleasant, they're always like 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.920 nice to be around, and they're always making you feel 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.880 good about yourself. That's one of the reasons parasocial relationships 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:51.680 can be so strong. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.240 Should we take a break, Yes, all right, we'll be 0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:10.440 right back. All right, So let's talk about this. We 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.520 got the setup with Horton and Wall and then since then, 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.920 over the decades, things have been pretty interesting as we've 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.400 moved toward social media, which again we'll get to. But 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.400 the reason that we form bonds, it sounds like it 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.400 might be a little weird, even though we explained that 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.480 it's quite natural, but it's evolutionary in nature. We've talked 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:36.600 before plenty about the facts that human beings are hardwired 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.120 to be social with one another because it helps in 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.920 their survival. The ability to read someone's tone or read 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.160 someone's face was very valuable in the age of tuk 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.000 tuk when they would approach like a new people or 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.680 something like a new persona and also the fact that 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.280 it's madeok Took feel good to have a friend. So 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.960 we are hardwired to be social with one and another, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.760 to pick up on social cues and to have wins. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.640 And we do that. We pick up on the social 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.840 cues largely from facial expressions and tone of voice, both 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.560 of which come through loud and clear in TV close ups. 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:14.600 Right, exactly for sure? 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.800 So what's happening? And again, I don't think this was 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.080 originally I mean, no one invented TV to do this 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.480 to people. It was like a surprise. But once people 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.960 figured out what was going on, they exploited it as 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:30.440 quickly as they could. But TV accidentally tricks you into 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.760 thinking you're interacting with a really great person and that 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.760 they're interacting with you and they kind of like you, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.239 so you like them back. 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.080 Right, Because your lizard brain, your evolutionary brain, doesn't know 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.960 the difference between Dan rather talking to your face on 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.120 a television and Dan rather really being in front of 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.000 you in a Starbucks. You don't really know the difference. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.960 All you know is you know going back to your brain, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.240 goes back to Tiktook's days, and you see a kind 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.120 face looking you in the eyeball telling you something interesting 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:03.120 or funny or what have you. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.520 Right exactly, So, I, like you said, I'm in the 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:13.320 forty nine percent that like just don't necessarily feel this way. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.600 And the reason why not everyone does this and that 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.040 other people do it strong more strongly than others supposedly 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.320 has to do with your natural levels of empathy. That 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.080 the more you're able to take other people's perspectives onto 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.840 your own and just kind of imagine yourself in their 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.400 shoes or understand their struggles or just acknowledging the fact 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.680 that they probably are struggling in some way, or you're 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.720 more likely to vibe on somebody in real life and 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.960 on TV as well, or in social media, as we'll see. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.280 I think you can be highly empathetic, though I can be. 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:48.520 It's just two people that you know, know and love, 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:50.360 So maybe that's a difference. 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.600 I know. I mean I can't be to strangers too, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.440 for sure. I just don't know. There's there's some. 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:58.800 Well that's true. I didn't mean it like that. I 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.840 just meant more, I see where you I see the 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.280 delineation in your mind. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.240 But that's the thing I'm not aware of it. It 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.280 feels like there's a short circuit between you know, what 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.480 I'm capable of, like in with people in real life 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.960 and people not in real life. Like there's a disconnect 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.679 between those two. And I'm not sure what it is 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.600 or where it comes from. But I don't know, because 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.640 I do. I like to think I'm fairly empathetic too. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.560 Yeah, for sure, I thought you were saying you weren't, 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:29.600 so you are. 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:30.600 Well. 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:32.760 I mean also, like, there's not a lot of like 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.360 podcasts you listen to every day and stuff, is there? No? 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.600 But I mean, like I watch a lot of TV too, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.919 and I don't have like a parrot social relationship with 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:41.360 Jason Vorhees or anything. 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:46.240 I don't a boy that reminds me. I just saw 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:51.040 a very funny old Kamil Najianni bit about uh, well, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.840 you can look it up about Jason and Freddy. It's 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.000 probably not something I want to say in the air, Okay, 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:56.919 but it's very funny. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.520 I want to know. Well, just google it, okay. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.600 Well, I think I can summarize it best by saying 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.800 that Freddie in the movie Freddy Versus Jason was racist 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.520 at one point in one of his little Freddie lines 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.840 because he talked about a person of color. Uh, and 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.920 A made sort of a Freddy quip about it, and 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.280 people he was like in people in the audience coroned. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.320 He's like, they really, you know, it's okay that you're 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.720 murdering children, but like when you made a racist jab, like, 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.040 that's when we're not on team Freddie anymore. It's pretty funny. Anyway, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:38.080 where was that going with that? Though? 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.280 What are you talking about? Yeah, we were moving on 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:42.000 that that, Like. 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.520 Oh, oh, I know what I was going to say 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.760 is that I don't really have these with TV people. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.280 Podcasting specific is where I get my parasocial relationship. 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:56.680 Yeah, and I'm yeah, I like, I guess I don't know, 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:58.639 like I would say that, Like I listened to it 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.159 a lot of Terry Grid and I've never been like 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.000 Terry and I would be great friends, you know. I 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.040 like her. I think she's amazing. I think she's one 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.720 of the best interviewers walking around right now. But sure, again, 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.400 they're just that like she is on the radio, she's 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.400 in Philadelphia, Like I've never met her, I'll never meet 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.399 her probably, like I've said outside her house, like those 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.520 those right, and she would not come to the door. Yeah, 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:27.680 those qualifications like mean something to me subliminally that keep 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.840 me from having a parasocial relationship. I think this. We're 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.040 gonna hammer this out one way or another by the 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.679 end of this episode. So uh. 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.080 There's something called the compensation theory, and that is the 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.840 idea that people who get in parasocial or who are 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.880 more inclined to get in a parasocial relationship, are compensating 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.840 for a lack of real relationships in their life. The 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.240 like you sort of mentioned earlier, the trope of the 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:58.160 lonely person who's socially awkward and doesn't have these relationships 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.359 in real life, so they dream a relationship with Conan 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.240 O'Brien or whatever, And studies don't bear this out. Studies 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.359 have shown that that's not the case. It's just not true. 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.600 And in fact, they've shown the opposite, that people who 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.600 are more extroverted and more likely to score higher on 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.840 test for interpersonal skills are more likely to form these relationships, 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.000 which it tracks for me. It makes sense if you're 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.439 more likely to be that way in a real relationship 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.600 and in real life, then it seems like you would 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:30.560 be more likely to do that parasocially. 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.080 Yes, but it is controversial, Like, there are definitely two 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.800 schools of thought. One is that this is inherently a 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.920 dangerous thing to do socially for yourself and for whoever 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.520 the object of your parasocial relationship is. And then other 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.399 people like, no, that's just you guys are there's no 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:52.080 data to back this up, right, But that whole compensation theory, 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.200 there's a model that attempts to explain it called the 0:21:55.320 --> 0:22:01.639 addiction absorption model, and it basically says that it says 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:08.320 that people who seek out parasocial relationships essentially are get 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.760 like you were saying, like they're awkward, so they have 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:12.960 to go find it somewhere else because there's an inherent 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.840 human drive to make connections, so they're just making them 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.119 with people that'll never meet in real life that they 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.639 kind of idolize, and by doing that, they absorb the 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.240 person's life. They absorb information about the person's life right 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.720 and effectively get addicted to it because it feels good 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:33.400 to be close to that person, and that, like any addiction, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.000 they develop a tolerance to a certain level of absorption, 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.040 so they start getting further and further and deeper and 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:44.919 deeper along into this addiction of their favorite person and 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.760 one day find themselves standing outside of Terry Gross's house 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.280 hopefully she'll come to the door. That's like, you will 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:57.560 eventually reach that level if you follow this path long enough, 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.520 and that anybody, anyone who's engaged in a or social 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.720 relationship is at risk of becoming that person that's stalking 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.600 Terry Gross. I'm sorry, Tory Gross. I know this is 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.919 just working, So I'm going with it. And that is 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.840 one camp. They've got the models, but they don't have 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:17.840 data that says that, and in fact, yeah, the models 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:21.840 are themselves are super questionable, the measures are super questionable, 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:27.479 and it seems like that's just a really overstating, you know, 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.920 the potential risks and dangers of this that for most people, 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:31.840 like you said, it's healthy. 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.760 I think so because if you're looking at a if 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.040 these numbers are accurate, and you're looking at like a 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.440 three to five percent rate of someone who takes things 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:45.560 too far, where Terry Gross is like listening to God, 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:48.640 what's her show, I'm totally blanking fresh air. Fresh air 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.560 is the gateway drug. And then that's not enough and 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.000 then you need you go out and get some fresh 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:58.160 air in front of her house. Things can get troubling. 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.040 That's the same thing as saying, like, anybody who ever 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.960 takes a sip of alcohol is at risk for becoming 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.680 an alcoholic. And exactly, like, technically these things are true, 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.000 because if you never took that sip of alcohol, you 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:13.680 wouldn't be an alcoholic. But it's just I think it's 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:14.680 a bit much. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.280 Right, Like anyone who smokes a rock of crack is 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:18.320 going to get addicted to. 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:23.280 Right, right, Yeah, exactly, So just. 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.480 A little more on that model, there's a kind of 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.960 like the person at the center of the Yeah it's 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.600 a dangerous thing camp seemingly is a psychologist named Linn McCutchen. 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:33.760 Yeah, this was interesting. 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.240 Lin McCutchen in two thousand and two came up with 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:39.400 the Celebrity Attitude Scale. And that's not a measure of 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:42.640 like which real housewife is more caty than the others, 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:48.040 that's right. Instead, it measures your attitude towards celebrities if 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:52.280 you're engaged in parasocial relationships. And lin McCutchen broke it 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.960 out into basically three levels. And again they believe that 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.800 this is like a stage, like these are stages. This 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.520 isn't like this per would never get to this stage, 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:03.360 like if you started the first win, you're at risk 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:05.000 of ending up in the third. Yeah. 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.200 And this was, by the way, like twenty eight years ago, 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:09.440 twenty one years ago, so it wasn't a couple of 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:12.040 years ago, which it sounds like it might be. But 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:17.360 the three levels are the entertainment social level, which mccutcheen says, 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.280 it's like almost everybody, and that's what we've been talking about. 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.480 When you just it's all good and it's all fun 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.280 and there's no weirdness going on. Then you get to 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:29.399 intense personal and that's when you start to internalize the 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:34.240 values of that person and consider them a soul mate. 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:37.920 Those to me feel like disparate things, Like. 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.280 Yeah, that's a pretty wide window. 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:42.440 Because when I first read it that, I was like, yeah, 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:45.240 internalizing the values of like someone doing good things, it's 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:48.400 like that's great, But putting that in the same categories 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:51.679 considering their soulmate is a big stretch for me. Agreed, Okay. 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:55.240 And then the final level borderline pathological. That's the three 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:58.320 to five percent, and that's when it's what they call 0:25:58.720 --> 0:25:59.720 celebrity worship. 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.840 That's the one. Yeah, that's the one where well, no Okay, 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.320 so borderline pathological is like the worst of it. But 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:09.840 I think they're all celebrity worship supposedly, and that's a 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:14.000 really big problem. Yes, And that's problematic because some of 0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:15.960 the people who are like, this is not this isn't 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.680 like an actual like you guys, there's no data suggesting 0:26:18.720 --> 0:26:21.199 that this is actually dangerous, they're saying in one of 0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:24.960 the big problems is, you guys are interchanging the term 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.960 fan with the term celebrity worshiper, right, and yet you've 0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:33.760 never actually studied fans, Like they've never applied the celebrity 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:36.560 attitude scale to groups of fans. They just applied it 0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:39.879 to random co eds who wanted like extra credit for 0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:44.920 their psychology class. So when when a media psychologist named 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:48.800 Gail Stever or Stever, Gail and Lynn, it's like a 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:54.280 it's pat episode up in here. So when when Gail 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:57.719 Stever applied the celebrity attitude scale to a group of 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.640 fans like people who go to convention like. 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.760 The bay Hive or the swift Swifties. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:08.280 Yeah, or who interact with other fans, people who've written 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:11.720 letters to a celebrity or something like that, like fans 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:16.280 like above average fans. Yeah, they found that most of 0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:19.480 them didn't even rise to the criteria for that first 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:23.240 entertainment social level, right, and that there is a definite 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:26.920 distinction between being a fan and being a celebrity worshiper. 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.280 And anything could tell you that, but you can thank 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:31.840 Gail Stever for proving it. 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.879 Yeah, so they're interrogating all these swifties and they're like, dude, 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:38.359 you're being weird. I just think she's awesome and like 0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:41.320 her music and go to see her shows, and you know, 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:43.800 fans get together and talk like, just back off. You're 0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:44.280 being very. 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:47.240 Strange, right, But we wouldn't have a great pantheon of 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.840 creepy movies if it weren't for that. Oh yeah, you know, 0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:53.560 celebrity worship, the borderline pathology. There's a lot of those, 0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:57.520 huh yes, but they may be generally made up. 0:27:57.560 --> 0:28:02.399 I'm not sure are any of them good. What comes 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.000 to mind is the Robert de Niro Wesley Snipes one. 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.040 Because we haven't even talked about sports. That one thing 0:28:08.040 --> 0:28:11.120 that you sent me that is accurate is when you're 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.879 at home screaming at a football player for dropping a 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:18.000 pass or something that's a parasocial interaction. 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:21.320 Right, So that's a parasocial interaction. You can imad that 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:24.879 that player knowing his wife's name and when they got married, 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.360 that's the beginnings of a parasocial relationship. That's the distinction. 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:32.440 Parasocial interaction can be cold out of just about anybody. 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:35.680 Sure if you're into whatever you're watching, but that doesn't 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.400 mean you're going to follow up after the game or 0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:39.240 the episode is. 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:41.720 Over, right, And don't ever talk back at the movie screen, 0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:43.200 although it can be funny. 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:45.920 In the theater. Yeah, no, never. 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:48.240 I mean I don't do it, and I think it's rude. 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:50.239 But I've also had a pretty good laugh or two 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:52.560 when someone timed it out just right. My famous story 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:55.920 about the Witch in New York that I won't repeat. 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:58.560 Okay, I'll just tell you what episode, go find it. 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:01.680 I forget stuff. Do you want to take a second break. 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:03.800 Yeah, yeah, let's see that. We'll be we'll get back 0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:05.320 here in a minute, and we'll talk about some of 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:09.800 the benefits perhaps, and then the dark side right after this. 0:29:21.240 --> 0:29:24.280 Okay. So I think we kind of laid out that 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.520 there's a really big disagreement on whether this is actually 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:30.960 problematic or not. I kind of tend to lean in 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:33.040 the camp that not, although for some people it can 0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:37.120 be okay. Yeah, But there's also like a whole other 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:40.640 school of thought that this is actually helpful in some ways, 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.760 in some surprising ways too, but in ways that you 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:50.320 would you would probably guess like that you are physically, emotionally, 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:54.920 psychologically getting a benefit out of that parasocial relationship. That 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:59.800 if you have a favorite podcast and favorite podcasters and 0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:01.640 we and you listen to them, you feel like you're 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:05.120 hanging out with your friends. You're receiving positive benefits from that. 0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:11.000 And as long as you're not replacing real life friends, yeah, 0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:14.080 with podcast friends, because your real life friends are bothering you, 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:18.360 they bug you're you're you're getting basically nothing but benefit 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:18.720 from it. 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:23.520 Yeah. And some of the other specific benefits are examples 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:25.960 of where and you see this more and more of 0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:29.840 these days with well with all kinds of people, actors 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:33.560 and pop stars and stuff. Talking about mental health, people 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:37.840 have many many, many people have sought treatment for themselves 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:42.360 because their favorite singer has been open and honest about 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:47.200 an eating disorder or a mental challenge. I think Dave 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:49.360 is the example of Katie Couric years ago when she 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.240 her husband died of colon cancer, and she did a 0:30:53.240 --> 0:30:56.479 broadcast where she got a colonoscopy, and the rate of 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:00.920 people getting colonoscopies jumped after that. So it literally can 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:05.440 help people be physically and mentally healthier because they're taking 0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:07.640 a queue, Like they may not want to listen to 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:10.200 their friend who says, hey, you should get some help, 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:17.320 but they'll listen to Edie Brikel what say, Wow, I 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:20.720 don't know how that happened, but no question just goes 0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:26.040 Billie Eilish and Adie Brikell say you know you should 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:28.720 you should see ke help if you're having struggles with 0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:29.320 this certain thing. 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:34.480 Okay, yes, that's a benefit for for all two right, 0:31:34.600 --> 0:31:37.720 And that doesn't mean that you're like you're just doing 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.800 what the celebrity you like tells you to. There's a 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:44.160 certain amount of I think, just raising awareness that is 0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:49.320 an accountant for in that as well. Also supposedly, having 0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:52.880 a parasocial relationship with somebody in an outgroup from you 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:58.120 can actually create feelings of empathy towards real life members 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:01.880 of that out group totally. There was a twenty twenty 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:08.080 study published in Communications Research that had participants watched ten 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:14.560 weeks of a show that featured LGBTQ plus people as 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:19.320 outgroup people, and over the ten weeks, most of the 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:22.760 people developed at least an affinity for the outgroup people, 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:26.480 but some people actually developed parasocial relationships with them. And 0:32:26.520 --> 0:32:29.240 the groups that were the most prejudiced against gay people 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:32.960 going into the study had the most growth and actually 0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:39.000 had lower lessened attitudes of prejudice toward gay people after 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:43.000 the study because they were exposed to gay people through TV, 0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:46.320 through these characters that they developed some form of parasocial 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:47.080 relationship with. 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:53.240 Yeah. So, like, I usually don't like homosexuals, but after watching, 0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:56.040 after being forced to watch Six Feet Under, Keith and 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:59.440 Michael's story was so sweet and I just really love 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:02.880 those guys. That happens, And that's why, and that's one 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:05.320 reason why representation matters. Just one reason. 0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:09.360 Go ahead, So, Chuck, speaking of gay love stories, I 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:12.040 saw Have you seen The Last of Us? I'm sure 0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:12.280 you have. 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.000 Yeah, yeah, I played the game as well. I was 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:15.600 waiting to it. 0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.520 So the I think episode three the best. 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:23.280 Nikauferman just amazing, dude, It is so amazing. 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:29.960 So if you have a relative who is homophobic, just 0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:32.880 start watching the Last of Us and they like guns 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:37.040 episode yeah, and hate zombies and episode three will spring 0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.560 on them and before they know it, they'll love gay 0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:42.440 people for the rest of their lives. It's amazingly well done. 0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:45.120 Well, you know the story there is in the game. 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:50.600 There is a just one brief mention of the partner 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:55.920 I can't think of his name now, Yeah, there's only yeah, 0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:57.920 there's only one mention of Frank when he just says 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.080 something in the game about like, yeah, I lost a 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.840 partner a year ago something something, And you don't even 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:05.080 know when you're playing the game if it was like 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:07.920 a business partner or whatever. And then when they made 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:10.640 the TV show, they said, hey, this is like a 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:13.200 chance to go off script and to build a richer 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:15.839 world and to like make this great episode of this 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:18.880 awesome backstory. Yeah, and it was, you know, hal was 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:20.400 like one of the best TV episodes of the year 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:21.040 of like any show. 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:25.319 Yes, it's so good, amazing. Nick Offerman just did such 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:26.040 a great job. 0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:28.719 Yeah. And the other guy from White Lotus got he's 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:29.080 so good. 0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:31.960 I've never seen him before. I've not watched that show. 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.000 Oh I think you would like White Lotus. 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:36.759 I've heard, I've heard, I've heard. 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:44.680 Yeah, Murray what's his name, Aby something? F Murray Abraham, No, 0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:48.279 Murray Bartlett. He's fantastic. 0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:51.560 Okay, all right, Has he been in anything else besides 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:53.319 White Lotus? I might have seen him in because I've 0:34:53.520 --> 0:34:55.279 been recognized him, but he had a pretty thick beer. 0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:59.600 I don't know he's so good at White Lotus though. 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:01.560 Okay, I'll check it. I'll check he's. 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:03.839 He's been another stuff, and he's certainly like probably more 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:06.080 busy than he's ever been now because of those roles. 0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:10.520 Okay, so where were we, Chuck? We were talking about. 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:14.920 Well, some of the benefits too. One thing that we've 0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:19.080 seen over the years is that you're not weird as 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:22.680 a forty something year old person to not have a 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:27.640 parasocial relationship, because generally speaking, teens and adolescents are more 0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:32.160 likely to have these than adults do. And for teens 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.520 it can be kind of like we said before, if 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.759 there's if Edie Brikel is telling a teen about her 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:41.279 struggles with something, it's a really big deal for a 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:44.240 teen or an adolescent to know that they're not alone, 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:46.640 that they can seek help, and they're not weird because 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:50.360 their favorite person, their favorite singer, also has the same thing. 0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:55.800 Right, that's incredibly beneficial. Yeah, I mean to help kids 0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:59.319 that are just feel completely isolated and make them feel 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:05.040 less alone. Also, apparently this is an explanation for the 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:09.360 trope of young girls, like pre adolescent adolescent girls having 0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:15.400 crushes on like Scott Bayo or who else that's not 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:16.000 a jerk. 0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:17.760 The Bay City Rollers. 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:20.839 Yeah, the Bay City Rollers. Of course, everybody went through 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:25.960 that that they're actually like the parasocial relationship helps them 0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.120 kind of explore what a real relationship is going to be, like, 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.160 what their expectations are, what their wants or what their 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:34.040 needs are. Yeah, you're kind there. 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:35.640 Yeah, there a. 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:38.359 Significant other to have Bay City Rollers hair. 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:40.560 Yeah, for sure, the aka the best hair. 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:41.240 Yeah. 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:43.880 I said that because I remember when I was a 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:47.200 kid very specifically. I have a memory of we had 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:50.640 a babysitter over one night, and the babysitter was a 0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:54.399 girl that was older than my sister. So my sister 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:56.080 must have been pretty young because she's six years old 0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.680 than me and she usually was the babysitter by that point. 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:01.560 But I remember them sitting around with a bas City 0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:05.360 Rollers record and spinning it around and dropping their finger 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:10.120 on the album and whichever, you know, roller that their 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:12.719 finger landed nearest to was the one that they would 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:16.600 fall in love with. I'm such a memory of that 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:18.359 when I was like five years old or something. It's 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:18.800 very funny. 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.799 Yeah, did it just blow your mind? Or were you like, 0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:22.920 what is this crying? No? 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.080 I got it, And you know, I famously had My 0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:30.680 very first crush was Christy McNichol, who is gay. So 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:31.880 I don't know what that says about me. 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:33.640 What was she and aiden is it enough? 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:38.440 No? She was in God, I mean she was in 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:42.520 movies and stuff. She was sort of just the cute 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:45.560 girl next door when we were well, I'm older than you, 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:46.239 but when I was. 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:48.399 A kid, I remember. I just don't remember what she 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:48.799 was in. 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:51.640 I'm trying to think of something. I mean, she was 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.320 in movies and stuff like Little Darlings and stuff that 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:57.440 I wasn't allowed to watch. But I think she was 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:59.239 on a TV show too. 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:02.280 Yeah, I'm familiar with her. I can't remember what. 0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:05.120 Oh family it was on that family. 0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:07.000 That's why I thought it was eight is enough. It's 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:08.120 basically the same. 0:38:08.000 --> 0:38:10.440 Thing exactly, there just weren't eight of them. 0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:15.520 I think. So again can be very beneficial. Usually very harmless. 0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:17.640 There is a dark side. That's not to say that 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:23.160 there isn't that that parasocial relationships can't go wrong, or 0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:25.880 that they can be harmful or it can't be harmful. 0:38:26.360 --> 0:38:28.719 And one of the one of the ways that I 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:32.400 said that media is built on itself over and over again. Yeah, kid, 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:37.400 going from radio to TV TV. Apparently. Another big crest 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.600 of this was when reality shows came along, yep, made 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:43.320 people even more connected to the people on the screen. 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.640 And then social media came along, and that is it's 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:54.200 it's almost like it was designed to get into your 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.919 brain and be like, this person is legitimately your friends. 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:00.920 They liked your post, they may even like DM back 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:03.000 and forth with you, they might respond to your email. 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.759 They know who you are, they're your friend, and at 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:11.520 that point, it being that realistic, it can trick you 0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:16.000 into forgetting that they aren't your friend, they don't really 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:20.960 know you. And this is a parasocial relationship, especially especially 0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:22.240 for developing minds. 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:26.600 Yeah, absolutely, because all of a sudden, you have twenty 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.040 four to seven access depending on how active someone is 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:32.440 in social media, where they are really sharing their life, 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:34.880 and you see a post by someone and you think, oh, 0:39:34.920 --> 0:39:38.120 my gosh, I have a black main coon cat too, 0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:41.600 and I had that same tile in your bathroom. You're 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.400 getting the little glimpses. And I mentioned Tyle because I 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:48.560 did the same thing. I saw Melissa McCarthy post something 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:51.239 one time and I had the same tile that she did, 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:54.440 and I, like a dope, thought, Oh my god, we 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:56.600 have the same taste. We would be such good friends. 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:59.440 Well, she's a huge TikTok influencer, so I'm sure that 0:39:59.480 --> 0:40:00.680 happens still lots of people. 0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:03.239 Oh is she really? Oh I don't know. 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:04.359 I don't think so. 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:05.760 I've never been on TikTok. 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:07.520 I see her more on Instagram. 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:13.560 Yeah. Sure. But they classify it as unhealthy when it's 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:16.279 disrupts your life, when it disrupts your daily life day 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:20.439 to day, and if it's damaging or replacing your real 0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:25.000 life relationships. That's when it's if you're spending money like 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:28.719 the furthest extreme is when all of a sudden you've 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:30.759 quit your job because you have to go live in 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:32.880 the city where this person is, or you're spending a 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:38.200 lot of money collecting expensive memorabilia or buying them gifts 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:41.160 and sending them. That's where it gets into the potential 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:42.279 stalker realm. 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:45.880 Yes, or that you threaten self harm if they don't 0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:50.040 respond to you, or yeah, it can be it can 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:53.560 get problematic. And again this is exceedingly rare. I don't 0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:57.600 think it's like a huge thing. To lose sleepover is 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:01.440 like no a parent or a concerned person, but it 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:04.400 can't happen. And again that just the combination of social 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:09.960 media and at developing brains. It's just so dangerous in 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:12.600 so many different ways and so potentially harmful in so 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:15.160 many different ways. And this is one of those ways 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:17.160 that it can happen. One of the other I think 0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:22.600 risk factors is is it is possible to kind of 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:28.359 let your in real life relationships dwindle as because you're 0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:32.000 putting more and more focus and energy into your parasocial relationship. 0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:34.600 And that also is kind of like a self defeating 0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:37.759 thing because there's fewer people to kind of pull you 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:40.080 back toward reality and say like, no, no, where are 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:42.880 your friends? That person is an influencer, doesn't even know 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:45.680 you exist. So let's go get some ice cream and 0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:48.400 play Fortnite while we do. 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:51.960 Right, that's a nice call up. 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.560 You're not even in gamer No, I'm not, but I've 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:56.120 heard of Fortnite before on TV. 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.320 So there's an article that they found that is really 0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:04.279 interesting and good, I think from The Guardian from a 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:09.040 couple of years ago by Rachel aerost I guess called 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:13.640 Tragic but True colon how podcasters replaced our real friends, 0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:18.480 and Rachel makes a very strong case that podcasting has 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:23.360 even up the game even more parasocially speaking, and COVID 0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:27.080 really helped with that because during COVID, when people were 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:29.560 locked in and they weren't seeing their friends face to 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.800 face anymore, they would have a zoom meetings and phone 0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:37.880 calls with certainly with their business associates, but also with friends. 0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:39.600 I mean I did this a few times where I 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:41.600 would get on a zoom with a friend from out 0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:44.640 of town or even in town, and all of a sudden, 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:50.200 podcasting increased. I think fifty one percent of podcast listeners 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.160 say they first started listening during the pandemic, and it 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:56.239 grew forty percent from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two. 0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:59.440 So not only are more people listening, but they're listening 0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:05.680 in this very intimate way, and you know, people are 0:43:05.680 --> 0:43:07.799 in their ear holes and you're looking and interacting the 0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:10.279 same way you were on like a zoom because you 0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:13.280 were robbed of contact with your friends. So it's basically 0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:16.520 there was nothing to distinguish the two except talking back. 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:21.080 What a weird turn of events too, for sure. But 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.240 the thing is is so the I think that title 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.160 is very misleading because if you read it, she's not 0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:30.040 actually really lamenting it. She's more just kind of documenting it. Yeah, 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:34.319 I think. And she also makes the point that this 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:36.759 was at a time during the pandemic, during like lockdowns, 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:42.080 where you were physically unable to interact with friends, and 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:46.040 podcasts made a pretty great substitute for a while, and 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.880 that that in and of itself makes it less harmful. 0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:53.440 I might be a little biased, but I do think 0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:57.600 that yes, being in people's ears is one of those triggers, 0:43:57.640 --> 0:44:01.560 like looking at people in the camera was with TV 0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:06.000 early on, Like that's a very very intimate to let 0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:09.719 somebody to let their voice be in your mind and 0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:13.360 basically take over your mind for that period of time. 0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:16.120 And that's of course what we're doing everybody, we're experimenting. 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:21.520 Yeah, and the other thing too is podcasting is they 0:44:21.560 --> 0:44:26.920 found this great Honors thesis by someone named Mikayla Nadora 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:29.920 from Portland State University a few years ago called Parasocial 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:33.880 Relationships with podcast Hosts, where Mikayla even references stuff you 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:36.080 should know, which is very great. 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:38.960 She the whole thing is about stuff you should know, 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.239 all thirty seven pages. Yeah, I remember her sending this 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:44.280 to us when she published. 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:47.759 Oh that's right, God, I totally remember that. Now we 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:52.120 get a lot of thesis actually interestingly, but the whole 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:57.040 upshot is that with podcasting, anyone can do it. You 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.880 have to have a small amount of equipment in the Internet, 0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:03.839 and it's not like you have to, you know, go 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:06.680 through the trials and tribulations of someone auditioning for a 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:09.799 role to eventually get on TV and stuff like that, 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:11.680 and then you're a big star. It's like it's a 0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:14.200 low barrier to entry. And that means that there's going 0:45:14.239 --> 0:45:16.680 to be a lot of just sort of everyday people 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:20.560 and regular schmos like you and I doing this, and 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:23.880 that lends itself even more to people thinking like, of 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:25.680 course we're friends, Like I'm not gonna be friends with 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:29.279 Carrie Bradshaw or Sarah Jessica Parker because they're just so fabulous. 0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:31.799 But Chuck and Josh are just Normy's like us, so 0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:32.399 we would be. 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:37.239 Friends normcore to the max. We are. Another thing that 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:40.640 Mikhael and Nadora kind of susted out as a trigger 0:45:40.800 --> 0:45:43.120 or Q, is that a lot of times people listen 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:45.880 to podcasts alone. A lot of people listen and listen 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:47.600 to them with other people, but for the I would 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:50.719 say the vast majority alone, I think listen to them alone. 0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:54.239 But they're also listening to them while they're doing other 0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:59.560 activities like vacuuming or commuting or going to the grocery store. 0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:02.400 So it's like we're along for the ride. We're keeping 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:04.480 you company while you're doing all this stuff. We're just 0:46:04.520 --> 0:46:07.640 sitting in the backseat having a conversation that you're listening 0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:09.640 to while you drive us to the grocery store. 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:13.600 Right, and also as we have done over the years, 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:16.480 and especially you know, there are all kinds of podcasts, 0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:18.399 but they found that the ones, I know it makes 0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:21.680 sense with the strongest parasocial bonds are ones like this 0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:27.040 where it's sort of people chatting, conversational usually comedy and 0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:31.080 not like a dramatic like I don't know, true crime. 0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:33.000 I guess they can have that angle with the hoster 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:36.319 have a lot of personality, Yeah, Karen and Georgia, Yeah 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:39.960 for sure. But with shows like the ones that we do, 0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:44.160 you talk inevitably about our lives and a house project 0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:48.400 we're doing, or Momo or Nico and Charlie or you 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:52.160 Me and Emily or Ruby, and people get invested because 0:46:52.800 --> 0:46:55.719 they know this stuff about us and they know they 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:58.040 feel like they know these people, like who gets the 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:01.440 biggest applause at any lives when Emily and you Me 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:05.560 are there? Emily and you Me, people are thrilled when 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:07.640 they're there. And Ruby was at her first live show 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:10.680 in Atlanta and people were just like, I mean, people 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:12.400 are kind of staring at her, and I didn't get 0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:15.200 creeped out because people are being super sweet and friendly 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:16.600 and they thought it was so sweet that she was 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:20.200 at her first show. But people hear these stories, and 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:22.520 I get it because I do the same thing with 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:26.440 my podcast hosts that I love, and it all just 0:47:26.480 --> 0:47:32.000 makes sense, like recalling jokes and people have especially with us, 0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:35.239 have lived fifteen sixteen years with us, and that whole 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:38.239 thing where people get mad when their favorite celebrity couple 0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:42.200 gets a divorce, like it's it's so weird to think about, 0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:46.040 but Emily and I get mad when Susan Saranon and 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:49.040 Tim Robbins split up, and if Emily and I got divorced, 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:52.480 people would hate my guts that listen to this show. 0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:57.680 So yeah, I think what she kind of sums all 0:47:57.719 --> 0:47:59.799 that up in is that that's one of the benefits 0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:03.040 of having a long running podcast or listening to a 0:48:03.040 --> 0:48:06.200 long running podcast. Little by little, all that stuff comes 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:11.400 out and you become immeshed in the other that hosts life, 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:14.120 Like you know what's going on in their life, and 0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.919 that's exactly what you do with friends. You know what's 0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:20.160 going on in their life. You know their dog's name 0:48:20.239 --> 0:48:22.120 and that their dog is great, and you know their 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:24.759 wife's name and their wife is great. You just know 0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:29.160 this stuff. And it's just another way that media is 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:33.080 tricking our brains, which are programmed to seek social connections, 0:48:33.280 --> 0:48:35.600 into thinking, oh, I've got a social connection going on. 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:39.600 This is pretty great, right, and people don't know that 0:48:40.120 --> 0:48:44.239 I can be very moody and passive aggressive, like even 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.600 in a podcast medium like this, where it is real 0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:51.719 for the most part, you don't want to show that 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:54.920 stuff on the air. You put your best self forward. 0:48:55.000 --> 0:48:56.800 Even in a medium like this, right. 0:48:56.960 --> 0:49:01.160 That's why they coin that term persona or persona because yeah, 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:06.520 that's it's just no one does that. Maybe what was 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:09.920 that horrible punk guy who used to eat his own 0:49:09.960 --> 0:49:14.799 poop on stage? Yes, maybe gg Allen would do that 0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:17.319 if he were still alive and had a podcast. But 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:21.000 for the most part, no, anybody, no matter who it is, 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:24.239 is going to at the very least put some semblance 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:26.359 of their best self forward. Even if it's not one 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:29.840 hundred percent. It doesn't mean it's made up. It's that 0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:33.080 you're holding some stuff back because it's just you don't 0:49:33.160 --> 0:49:35.960 share that with people you've never met before. And in 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:38.960 that sense, we the hosts are aware that you can 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:42.279 form a parasocial relationship with us, we can't do that 0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:45.960 with you, So that inherently makes us slightly guarded to 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:49.200 some degree or another and creates for you, guys, a 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:52.439 persona that is an idealized version of us. 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:57.040 But here's the thing. If I talk about being passive, aggressive, 0:49:57.120 --> 0:50:01.040 or moody, that ramps up the relationship because people can 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:04.960 identify with that. I just can't be that to you 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.520 on the air, Yeah, because then people would witness the 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:11.879 actual act of it and say, well, geez CHUCKSA can 0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:13.200 be a real moody jerk sometimes. 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:15.359 I know it'd be like the crossword puzzle all over 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:21.320 it again. Oh no, oh no, I'm kidding. Great episode, 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.920 but man, that got everybody up to set, you know, 0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:26.719 like they were like, what is going on? Like is 0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:29.640 this the end of stuff you should know? Oh? I know. 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:33.400 I think I took my enthusiasm for crosswords and got weird. 0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:35.960 Oh it was fine. I think it's a classic app 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:37.680 It was a good one too, but I mean the 0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:41.080 fact that it has just that little ball of weirdness 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:43.440 in there. I love. Sure, classic stuff you should know. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:46.360 Uh, I mean that's all I got. I think it 0:50:46.440 --> 0:50:48.320 is super interesting for sure. 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:50.480 This is a what made you choose this? One? That 0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.000 I'm sure everybody wants to know because they'll feel closer 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:54.920 to you if you tell them. 0:50:55.160 --> 0:50:58.239 I don't Dave might have actually thought of this or no, 0:50:58.400 --> 0:51:01.040 maybe maybe i'd a because I didn't even know this 0:51:01.160 --> 0:51:04.759 was a term. I've lived it on both sides, but 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:08.759 I never knew people studied it, so, uh, I don't know. 0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:10.200 Maybe that's where it came from. I just saw the 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.800 words and I was like, oh wait, that's me. Both times, 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:13.960 chuck both ways. 0:51:14.400 --> 0:51:18.120 There you go. That comes after the colon from Parasocial Relationship. 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:19.600 It's chuck both ways. 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:23.839 Yeah, like a fine dish in a great restaurant. All right, 0:51:24.680 --> 0:51:27.160 sure you never had that, like scallop two ways or whatever. 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:27.680 That's the thing. 0:51:28.280 --> 0:51:36.240 I made salad four ways, check salad like a niche 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:41.759 wase salad. Okay, what were the other two? Oh? One 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:44.600 was like a corn and bean salad. 0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:46.040 Okay, sounds good. 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:48.759 And then there was another one, and I was like, 0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:52.560 my god, I made four salads. Yeah, there's a lot 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:53.759 of leftover salad, but it. 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:55.239 Was good salad forward ways. 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:55.680 I like it. 0:51:55.960 --> 0:51:57.640 When I came over, he only made me three salads, 0:51:57.680 --> 0:51:58.600 so I'm a little salty. 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:02.080 I was holding back. I still perfecting the fourth one. 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:04.319 I'll make that fourth one for you some other time. 0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:05.080 Please. 0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:08.719 Well, I feel like we're done with this episode. You 0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:10.879 said that's all you got, It's all I've got. I'm 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:13.000 done talking about salad. So that means it's time for 0:52:13.120 --> 0:52:13.800 listener mail. 0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:20.040 I'm going to call this inspiration. Hey guys, I want 0:52:20.040 --> 0:52:21.400 to reach out and say that I love your show. 0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:23.600 My husband discovered it showed it to me. I haven't 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.480 stopped listening since when I was a stay at home 0:52:26.520 --> 0:52:28.120 mom feeling lonely, I would turn on the show and 0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:31.120 feel like I was having a conversation with friends. That's funny, 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:32.399 I didn't even preread this one. 0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:34.840 No way, really yeahs. 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:37.600 And Kinley says parentheses in the least creepy way possible. 0:52:37.600 --> 0:52:40.359 I always could to include that. Your show even gave 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:42.800 me the inspiration idea to write a daily true crime 0:52:42.920 --> 0:52:45.320 calendar as a way for me to share my interest 0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:47.800 with others just like you. In fact, several days in 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.680 my calendar are inspired by some of your episodes. By 0:52:50.680 --> 0:52:52.840 getting this idea from you to work on the calendar, 0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:56.279 it helped me through a postpartum anxiety wow, and helped 0:52:56.280 --> 0:52:58.120 me feel like I was helping to provide for my 0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:00.680 new little one. I would love to show my appreciation 0:53:00.760 --> 0:53:03.080 by sending you each a copy of my calendar. If 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:06.520 you would like one, just reply send my address so hey, 0:53:06.560 --> 0:53:09.520 you can send it. Here's my home address. I'm just kidding. 0:53:09.800 --> 0:53:11.759 So grateful I was able to discover the show, because 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:14.120 I wouldn't be where I would am now if I 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:16.200 hadn't keep doing the good work. I'll look forward to 0:53:16.200 --> 0:53:20.160 hearing from you and that is from ken Lee. Ken Lee, Yeah, 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:23.520 Kinley and I Kimle Yeah. I want one of these 0:53:24.480 --> 0:53:26.640 true crime calendars. I love a daily calendar. I just 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.360 need to send kin Lee the address. 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:33.000 Yeah, same here, so please spell kim Lee or Kinley's 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:36.680 name kay I n l e Y Kinley. Oh yeah, 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:38.759 like Mount McKinley, but without the mount or. 0:53:38.719 --> 0:53:40.920 The Mitchy exactly. 0:53:41.239 --> 0:53:43.239 Kinley, thank you so much for that email. Like I 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:45.720 said at the beginning of this episode, we love hearing 0:53:45.719 --> 0:53:48.000 stuff like that, so we're glad we could help in 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.360 some way. And I'd love a calendar too. If you 0:53:51.480 --> 0:53:53.480 want to be like Kinlee and get in touch with us, 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:55.719 you can send us an email as well. Send it 0:53:55.760 --> 0:54:01.399 off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:04.440 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:08.719 more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:54:08.840 --> 0:54:10.680 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.