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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know a little close to home edition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right. And in two ways. One is that as

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Speaker 1: podcasters we are on one end of the parasocial relationship

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Speaker 1: relationship correct, yeah. And the other is like I have these.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you do or not, but I

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Speaker 1: have parasocial relationships of my own with podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I don't have any because I'm saying right, I'm totally kidding.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I have any. No, I don't have any.

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Speaker 2: I think what it is has nothing to do with sanity,

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Speaker 2: my imagination. It's just not that vivid. Oh okay, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean? Because I think for this to set,

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Speaker 2: you have to be able to imagine yourself, like in

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Speaker 2: the room with the people you're listening to, for example,

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Speaker 2: or what you would do after they stopped filming the

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Speaker 2: TV show or something like.

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Speaker 1: That, Like any you're big into comedy, any of your

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Speaker 1: big comedian people that you love, you know, never think,

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Speaker 1: like God, we would be friends.

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Speaker 2: No, I really don't. I don't I feel like deficient

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Speaker 2: because of it. But I genuinely do not have any

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Speaker 2: parasocial relationship that I can bring to mind, and I

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Speaker 2: don't remember ever having that. I think I just assumed

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Speaker 2: that they wouldn't like me, rather than they would like me,

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Speaker 2: which makes it much harder to have a parasocial relationship

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Speaker 2: with somebody you just assume you wouldn't get along with

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Speaker 2: very well.

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Speaker 1: Well, then by some estimates, you're part of the forty

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Speaker 1: nine percent of people of Americans, that is that do

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Speaker 1: not have parasocial relationships. And if you're yelling at us

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Speaker 1: right now because we haven't defined it yet, just a

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Speaker 1: parasocial relationship is a It's like when you listen to

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Speaker 1: a podcast and you think, I know those guys, they're

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Speaker 1: like my friends. We would be so we would be

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Speaker 1: such good friends. In real life, it's a one sided

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Speaker 1: relationship between a consumer of a thing, a fan of

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Speaker 1: a thing, and a public figure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In one of those papers you sent me, I

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Speaker 2: saw it described rather aptly as a one sided intimacy

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Speaker 2: at a distance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And in our go go be normal as much as

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Speaker 2: you can type society, that sounds a little like off base,

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Speaker 2: a little weird, a little out there to some people,

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Speaker 2: I should say, to others, you're it's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course this is normal life. But we should say like,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It can go wrong, yeah,

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Speaker 2: as we'll see, but at its base, having a parasocial

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Speaker 2: relationship does not make you a loser, a loner, social misfit,

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Speaker 2: a weirdo. It actually makes you slightly healthier emotionally intellectually

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Speaker 2: in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And as we'll talk about, studies bear that out

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Speaker 1: that it's you know, I think they put it generally

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Speaker 1: about three to five percent of the time, it can

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Speaker 1: go south, and we'll talk about that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: when it becomes obsessive and stuff like that. Dam But yeah,

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Speaker 1: for the other ninety five to ninety eight percent, to people,

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Speaker 1: it actually provides quite a benefit because it makes someone,

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Speaker 1: It makes someone feel good, and it makes people laugh

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, and I feel like comedy a

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Speaker 1: lot of times is what you associate more. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you can have parasocial relationships with like Peter Jennings or

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Speaker 1: something sure or Dan Rather, I'm sure that.

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Speaker 2: Happens hard to those we'll see.

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Speaker 1: You generally think of it in terms of like either

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Speaker 1: a podcast or a TV show when you when you

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Speaker 1: would sit around and you would think about a which

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Speaker 1: friend am I or which sex and the city character,

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Speaker 1: you're such a Miranda, Like, that's the kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about here, when people identified so much

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Speaker 1: that it's like a real relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I want to say I am in that

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Speaker 2: very unusual and unique position, as are you and as

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Speaker 2: our pastors. Right, I totally am a Miranda. Actually, no,

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Speaker 2: what's the other one's name? Who is married to Kyle McLaughlin.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I identify more with her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Charlotte, Charlotte.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a total Charlotte. What I was going to say, though,

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Speaker 2: is I'm in the unique position of being on the

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Speaker 2: opposite side of a parasocial relationship. That's a very rare

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Speaker 2: place to be. And I can tell you that I

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Speaker 2: do enjoy hearing about that, Like when we're at live

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Speaker 2: shows and people tell us like where they think of

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Speaker 2: us as like their friends or whatever. I always love

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Speaker 2: to hear that kind of thing. Yeah, me too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I don't want to I don't engage with them myself,

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Speaker 2: but when they are thrust upon me, I'm like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we feel the same way generally, and most

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Speaker 1: times when we meet listeners who are awesome like that,

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Speaker 1: if we did know each other, there's a good chance

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Speaker 1: we might be friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's another thing too, is I think

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Speaker 2: that's kind of like that that weirdo view of it,

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Speaker 2: Like the irony of it is they're so far off

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Speaker 2: base that like, if they ever actually did meet the

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Speaker 2: person in real life, they would be horribly crushed and

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Speaker 2: maybe even mocked. I mean, at least from our experience,

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Speaker 2: most people who do come up and tell us that

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Speaker 2: they think of us as friends do seem like people

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Speaker 2: we would probably hang out with in real life.

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Speaker 1: Totally. There's also an I'll talk about this a little bit,

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Speaker 1: I guess later, But I'm in a situation where a

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Speaker 1: lot of the podcasts that I consume are comedy podcasts

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Speaker 1: where I do kind of know the person. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: but that's a quasi parasocial relationship because I find myself

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Speaker 1: thinking I'm better friends with them than I am, when

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Speaker 1: in fact they are just industry colleagues that are loose pals. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but I think, like, oh yeah, me and Scott Ackermann

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Speaker 1: are like great friends because we have so much in common.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he does not think that.

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Speaker 1: And Scott's a great guy, super nice. He's always been

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Speaker 1: very nice. I'll be on the shows occasionally. We both

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Speaker 1: worked with him a little bit, but we're not great friends,

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Speaker 1: even though I feel like we are because I listen

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Speaker 1: to so much of his stuff.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm glad you let me teck somebody. I was

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Speaker 2: going to ask you who you have parasocial relationships with,

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Speaker 2: but I feel like quasi para social relationship is very niche.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so, So let's.

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Speaker 2: Let's begin at the beginning. These things haven't been around forever,

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Speaker 2: mostly because they're a product of media communications. They would

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Speaker 2: not exist otherwise because without media, you would actually be

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Speaker 2: interacting with this person faced. And that's the big rub

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Speaker 2: of the whole thing is that other person is on

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Speaker 2: the other side of a screen, they're in your headphones.

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Speaker 2: They're not there physically, but the way that they present

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Speaker 2: themselves to you tricks us into becoming friends with them

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Speaker 2: or having an affinity for them, just as you would

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Speaker 2: if you met them in real life. And the whole

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Speaker 2: thing is traced back to a couple of sociologists named

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Speaker 2: Donald Horton and Richard Wall who back in the fifties

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Speaker 2: started noticing that people would actually talk back to their

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Speaker 2: TV and that they as sociologists, they said, this is interesting,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of unusual.

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Speaker 1: And probably new people don't TV.

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Speaker 2: And I think I'm sure it existed before in radio.

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Speaker 2: But as we'll see, media has added to itself, added

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Speaker 2: to itself, added to itself over the generations, over the

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Speaker 2: last half century or so to make it more likely

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Speaker 2: that you're going to have a parasocial relationship with somebody

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Speaker 2: in me, and a deeper one too. But the whole

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Speaker 2: thing started with TV and people shouting at it, and

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Speaker 2: what they coined was a term called parasocial interactions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I think TV also was all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you had a couple of other ingredients to

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Speaker 1: the recipe that could spawn a parasocial relationship, which is

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Speaker 1: repeated consistent faces that you're seeing. It's not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: go into a movie, which you could do before the

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Speaker 1: you know, nineteen fifty six, that person being in your house,

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Speaker 1: in your living room every week or even every night

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Speaker 1: was a different thing. And they were talking to you,

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Speaker 1: they were looking at your face, and there were new

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Speaker 1: kinds of media personalities that they hadn't seen before, which

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Speaker 1: is like game show host, talk show host, newscasters, people

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Speaker 1: looking into the camera and talking to you the home audience.

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Speaker 1: And that changed things, and they were fascinated by what

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Speaker 1: they called this relationship between what they dubbed persone who

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Speaker 1: were or you know, the Dan rathers or whatever. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why Dan rather so on the tip of

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Speaker 1: my brain. What's even doing these days? He's writing and stuff, right.

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Speaker 2: I don't I don't know. It's been a while. I'n't

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Speaker 2: heard from it in a while. He hasn't called me back.

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Speaker 1: I think he's I think he's pretty active on social

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Speaker 1: media and stuff. Anyway, it was a new thing where

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Speaker 1: there were people in your room, these persona talking to

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Speaker 1: your family, and it was there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: small talk that had never been around before, like on

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Speaker 1: the news when you you know how newscasters are they

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Speaker 1: We've talked about it in the weather Person episode. The

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Speaker 1: change to like the more familiar banter and small talk

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Speaker 1: and you know, let's talk about our lives a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Even all of a sudden, people are being let in.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and that's a product of the whole thing, Like

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Speaker 2: that's purposeful and what the whole thing creates is the

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Speaker 2: illusion of intimacy. And that's I disagree with by the way,

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Speaker 2: that it's an illusion.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's what and Wall call that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a type of intimacy.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so what would you call it?

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Speaker 1: Intimacy? One way intimacy?

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Speaker 2: I guess. Okay, yeah, I'll agree with you on that

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Speaker 2: for sure. I think these guys were just like, what

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Speaker 2: the heck is going on? So, yeah, you're kind they weren't. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so we'll just call it this type of intimacy or

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Speaker 2: one sided intimacy. And like I was saying, like they

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Speaker 2: purposely cultivated this as they started, not Wall and Horton,

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Speaker 2: but TV producers found out very quickly that like people

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Speaker 2: would write letters to you know, their favorite newscaster or

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Speaker 2: their favorite soap opera character or something like that that

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Speaker 2: was kind of new again. People would yell at the radio,

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Speaker 2: or they would listen to a specific news announcer on

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Speaker 2: the radio or something like that that happened before. But

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Speaker 2: that whole thing of being able to look at you,

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Speaker 2: of being able to talk to you directly, seemingly again,

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Speaker 2: it trigger something in us that radio could never do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you said, I think I cut you off.

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Speaker 1: You were talking about the fact that it wasn't an accident.

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Speaker 1: They worked on this. They were told to look directly

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Speaker 1: into the camera lens, and they were told to make

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Speaker 1: small talk and have friendly banter between each other, and

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Speaker 1: to have like a friendly tone. It was all engineered

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Speaker 1: to get people to watch you more. It wasn't engineered

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Speaker 1: so parasocial relationships would form, but that was a byproduct

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Speaker 1: of them trying to get their game show host or

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Speaker 1: their newscaster to connect with an audience, right.

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Speaker 2: So some other things they would do is characters would

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Speaker 2: be boiled down into kind of thumbnail sketches of a person.

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Speaker 2: So you have like Joey, who's kind of like the

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Speaker 2: ditzy one, or Gracie Allen was the original I think

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Speaker 2: kind of dits on TV. And when she entered the

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Speaker 2: room or when Joey entered a scene, you knew something

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Speaker 2: like hilarious was gonna happen because they were just so

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Speaker 2: ditzy sense you know Joey like you don't know matt

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Speaker 2: LeBlanc at all. You know Joey the character that Matt

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Speaker 2: LeBlanc is playing. Uh, you doing exactly. You know, he's

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Speaker 2: probably going to say something like that, he's going to

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Speaker 2: like go after some girl or something like that. You

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Speaker 2: can predict his actions, which means that you have some

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Speaker 2: sort of relationship with them, and that you recognize his

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Speaker 2: personality and you accept it and you can predict it,

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Speaker 2: and that in and of itself is a level of intimacy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you don't even necessarily have to identify with

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Speaker 1: that particular character. I think in the case of something

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Speaker 1: like friends or Sex in the City, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people just said, Hey, this is like my group of friends,

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Speaker 1: and Joey is like my friend Josh and Chandler is

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Speaker 1: like my other friend, and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: I got to wait, whom I'm like?

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Speaker 1: Who I was talking about a different question? Oh okay, I said,

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Speaker 1: you're like Joey, but you're not like any of the friends.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a bit of a bit of a Rachel.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, kind of happy about that. We're going

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Speaker 2: with friends and Sex and the City for the rest

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Speaker 2: of the episode.

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Speaker 1: Huh, I guess so. Another thing that we did on

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Speaker 1: our own very show was that they did back then

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Speaker 1: to engineer this kind of connection was call in shows,

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Speaker 1: reading fan mail on the air, stuff like that, interacting

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Speaker 1: with the audience, which is obviously ramped up in the

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Speaker 1: day of social media, which we'll get to because that's

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Speaker 1: a whole different bollowax these days.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And one of the reasons that Horton and Wall

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Speaker 2: created a new term for what the person is who

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Speaker 2: the person is having a parasoxial relationship with persona or

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Speaker 2: a persona is because that's not again, it's not a

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Speaker 2: real person, even if they're not playing a character. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the newscaster is playing himself the newscaster. He's

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Speaker 2: not talking about like the horrible fight he and his

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Speaker 2: wife had the day before. He didn't get much sleep,

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Speaker 2: and he's not really feeling good. He's never going to

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Speaker 2: bring that up. All he's ever gonna show you is

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Speaker 2: at least a neutral mood, if not a positive mood.

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Speaker 2: And so after seeing that time and time and time again,

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Speaker 2: you develop an idealized vision of this person, this persona

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Speaker 2: that can't possibly hold up in reality, and in that sense,

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Speaker 2: that makes the parasocial relationship that much more seductive, because

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Speaker 2: what that persona can offer you is an idealized friend.

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Speaker 2: Dave helps us out with this, and he said that

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Speaker 2: the cheery game show host is never has a bad

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Speaker 2: day in snaps at you, and I would caveat that

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Speaker 2: with except Alex Trebek, but for the most part, all

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Speaker 2: the other ones wouldn't. They're always pleasant, they're always like

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Speaker 2: nice to be around, and they're always making you feel

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Speaker 2: good about yourself. That's one of the reasons parasocial relationships

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Speaker 2: can be so strong.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a break, Yes, all right, we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back. All right, So let's talk about this. We

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Speaker 1: got the setup with Horton and Wall and then since then,

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Speaker 1: over the decades, things have been pretty interesting as we've

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Speaker 1: moved toward social media, which again we'll get to. But

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Speaker 1: the reason that we form bonds, it sounds like it

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Speaker 1: might be a little weird, even though we explained that

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Speaker 1: it's quite natural, but it's evolutionary in nature. We've talked

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Speaker 1: before plenty about the facts that human beings are hardwired

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Speaker 1: to be social with one another because it helps in

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Speaker 1: their survival. The ability to read someone's tone or read

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Speaker 1: someone's face was very valuable in the age of tuk

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Speaker 1: tuk when they would approach like a new people or

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Speaker 1: something like a new persona and also the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's madeok Took feel good to have a friend. So

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Speaker 1: we are hardwired to be social with one and another,

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Speaker 1: to pick up on social cues and to have wins.

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Speaker 2: And we do that. We pick up on the social

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Speaker 2: cues largely from facial expressions and tone of voice, both

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Speaker 2: of which come through loud and clear in TV close ups.

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Speaker 1: Right, exactly for sure?

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Speaker 2: So what's happening? And again, I don't think this was

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Speaker 2: originally I mean, no one invented TV to do this

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Speaker 2: to people. It was like a surprise. But once people

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Speaker 2: figured out what was going on, they exploited it as

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Speaker 2: quickly as they could. But TV accidentally tricks you into

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Speaker 2: thinking you're interacting with a really great person and that

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Speaker 2: they're interacting with you and they kind of like you,

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Speaker 2: so you like them back.

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Speaker 1: Right, Because your lizard brain, your evolutionary brain, doesn't know

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Speaker 1: the difference between Dan rather talking to your face on

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Speaker 1: a television and Dan rather really being in front of

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Speaker 1: you in a Starbucks. You don't really know the difference.

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Speaker 1: All you know is you know going back to your brain,

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Speaker 1: goes back to Tiktook's days, and you see a kind

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Speaker 1: face looking you in the eyeball telling you something interesting

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Speaker 1: or funny or what have you.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, So, I, like you said, I'm in the

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Speaker 2: forty nine percent that like just don't necessarily feel this way.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why not everyone does this and that

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Speaker 2: other people do it strong more strongly than others supposedly

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Speaker 2: has to do with your natural levels of empathy. That

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Speaker 2: the more you're able to take other people's perspectives onto

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Speaker 2: your own and just kind of imagine yourself in their

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Speaker 2: shoes or understand their struggles or just acknowledging the fact

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Speaker 2: that they probably are struggling in some way, or you're

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Speaker 2: more likely to vibe on somebody in real life and

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Speaker 2: on TV as well, or in social media, as we'll see.

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Speaker 1: I think you can be highly empathetic, though I can be.

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Speaker 1: It's just two people that you know, know and love,

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Speaker 1: So maybe that's a difference.

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Speaker 2: I know. I mean I can't be to strangers too,

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Speaker 2: for sure. I just don't know. There's there's some.

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Speaker 1: Well that's true. I didn't mean it like that. I

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Speaker 1: just meant more, I see where you I see the

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Speaker 1: delineation in your mind.

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Speaker 2: But that's the thing I'm not aware of it. It

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Speaker 2: feels like there's a short circuit between you know, what

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Speaker 2: I'm capable of, like in with people in real life

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Speaker 2: and people not in real life. Like there's a disconnect

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Speaker 2: between those two. And I'm not sure what it is

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Speaker 2: or where it comes from. But I don't know, because

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Speaker 2: I do. I like to think I'm fairly empathetic too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I thought you were saying you weren't,

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Speaker 1: so you are.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I mean also, like, there's not a lot of like

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Speaker 1: podcasts you listen to every day and stuff, is there? No?

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Speaker 2: But I mean, like I watch a lot of TV too,

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Speaker 2: and I don't have like a parrot social relationship with

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Speaker 2: Jason Vorhees or anything.

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Speaker 1: I don't a boy that reminds me. I just saw

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Speaker 1: a very funny old Kamil Najianni bit about uh, well,

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Speaker 1: you can look it up about Jason and Freddy. It's

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Speaker 1: probably not something I want to say in the air, Okay,

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Speaker 1: but it's very funny.

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Speaker 2: I want to know. Well, just google it, okay.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think I can summarize it best by saying

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Speaker 1: that Freddie in the movie Freddy Versus Jason was racist

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Speaker 1: at one point in one of his little Freddie lines

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Speaker 1: because he talked about a person of color. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: A made sort of a Freddy quip about it, and

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Speaker 1: people he was like in people in the audience coroned.

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Speaker 1: He's like, they really, you know, it's okay that you're

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Speaker 1: murdering children, but like when you made a racist jab, like,

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Speaker 1: that's when we're not on team Freddie anymore. It's pretty funny. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: where was that going with that? Though?

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about? Yeah, we were moving on

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Speaker 2: that that, Like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, oh, I know what I was going to say

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Speaker 1: is that I don't really have these with TV people.

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Speaker 1: Podcasting specific is where I get my parasocial relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm yeah, I like, I guess I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like I would say that, Like I listened to it

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Speaker 2: a lot of Terry Grid and I've never been like

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Speaker 2: Terry and I would be great friends, you know. I

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Speaker 2: like her. I think she's amazing. I think she's one

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Speaker 2: of the best interviewers walking around right now. But sure, again,

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Speaker 2: they're just that like she is on the radio, she's

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Speaker 2: in Philadelphia, Like I've never met her, I'll never meet

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Speaker 2: her probably, like I've said outside her house, like those

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Speaker 2: those right, and she would not come to the door. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: those qualifications like mean something to me subliminally that keep

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Speaker 2: me from having a parasocial relationship. I think this. We're

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Speaker 2: gonna hammer this out one way or another by the

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Speaker 2: end of this episode. So uh.

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Speaker 1: There's something called the compensation theory, and that is the

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Speaker 1: idea that people who get in parasocial or who are

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Speaker 1: more inclined to get in a parasocial relationship, are compensating

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Speaker 1: for a lack of real relationships in their life. The

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Speaker 1: like you sort of mentioned earlier, the trope of the

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Speaker 1: lonely person who's socially awkward and doesn't have these relationships

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Speaker 1: in real life, so they dream a relationship with Conan

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Speaker 1: O'Brien or whatever, And studies don't bear this out. Studies

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Speaker 1: have shown that that's not the case. It's just not true.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, they've shown the opposite, that people who

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Speaker 1: are more extroverted and more likely to score higher on

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Speaker 1: test for interpersonal skills are more likely to form these relationships,

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Speaker 1: which it tracks for me. It makes sense if you're

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Speaker 1: more likely to be that way in a real relationship

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Speaker 1: and in real life, then it seems like you would

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Speaker 1: be more likely to do that parasocially.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but it is controversial, Like, there are definitely two

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Speaker 2: schools of thought. One is that this is inherently a

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Speaker 2: dangerous thing to do socially for yourself and for whoever

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Speaker 2: the object of your parasocial relationship is. And then other

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Speaker 2: people like, no, that's just you guys are there's no

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Speaker 2: data to back this up, right, But that whole compensation theory,

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Speaker 2: there's a model that attempts to explain it called the

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Speaker 2: addiction absorption model, and it basically says that it says

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Speaker 2: that people who seek out parasocial relationships essentially are get

401
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: like you were saying, like they're awkward, so they have

402
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: to go find it somewhere else because there's an inherent

403
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Speaker 2: human drive to make connections, so they're just making them

404
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Speaker 2: with people that'll never meet in real life that they

405
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Speaker 2: kind of idolize, and by doing that, they absorb the

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Speaker 2: person's life. They absorb information about the person's life right

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Speaker 2: and effectively get addicted to it because it feels good

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Speaker 2: to be close to that person, and that, like any addiction,

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Speaker 2: they develop a tolerance to a certain level of absorption,

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Speaker 2: so they start getting further and further and deeper and

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Speaker 2: deeper along into this addiction of their favorite person and

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Speaker 2: one day find themselves standing outside of Terry Gross's house

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Speaker 2: hopefully she'll come to the door. That's like, you will

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Speaker 2: eventually reach that level if you follow this path long enough,

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Speaker 2: and that anybody, anyone who's engaged in a or social

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Speaker 2: relationship is at risk of becoming that person that's stalking

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Speaker 2: Terry Gross. I'm sorry, Tory Gross. I know this is

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Speaker 2: just working, So I'm going with it. And that is

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Speaker 2: one camp. They've got the models, but they don't have

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Speaker 2: data that says that, and in fact, yeah, the models

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Speaker 2: are themselves are super questionable, the measures are super questionable,

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Speaker 2: and it seems like that's just a really overstating, you know,

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Speaker 2: the potential risks and dangers of this that for most people,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it's healthy.

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Speaker 1: I think so because if you're looking at a if

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Speaker 1: these numbers are accurate, and you're looking at like a

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Speaker 1: three to five percent rate of someone who takes things

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Speaker 1: too far, where Terry Gross is like listening to God,

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Speaker 1: what's her show, I'm totally blanking fresh air. Fresh air

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Speaker 1: is the gateway drug. And then that's not enough and

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Speaker 1: then you need you go out and get some fresh

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Speaker 1: air in front of her house. Things can get troubling.

433
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: That's the same thing as saying, like, anybody who ever

434
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: takes a sip of alcohol is at risk for becoming

435
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: an alcoholic. And exactly, like, technically these things are true,

436
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: because if you never took that sip of alcohol, you

437
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't be an alcoholic. But it's just I think it's

438
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: a bit much.

439
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: Right, Like anyone who smokes a rock of crack is

440
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: going to get addicted to.

441
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: Right, right, Yeah, exactly, So just.

442
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: A little more on that model, there's a kind of

443
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: like the person at the center of the Yeah it's

444
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: a dangerous thing camp seemingly is a psychologist named Linn McCutchen.

445
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was interesting.

446
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: Lin McCutchen in two thousand and two came up with

447
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 2: the Celebrity Attitude Scale. And that's not a measure of

448
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: like which real housewife is more caty than the others,

449
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: that's right. Instead, it measures your attitude towards celebrities if

450
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: you're engaged in parasocial relationships. And lin McCutchen broke it

451
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: out into basically three levels. And again they believe that

452
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: this is like a stage, like these are stages. This

453
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: isn't like this per would never get to this stage,

454
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 2: like if you started the first win, you're at risk

455
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: of ending up in the third. Yeah.

456
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: And this was, by the way, like twenty eight years ago,

457
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: twenty one years ago, so it wasn't a couple of

458
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: years ago, which it sounds like it might be. But

459
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: the three levels are the entertainment social level, which mccutcheen says,

460
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: it's like almost everybody, and that's what we've been talking about.

461
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: When you just it's all good and it's all fun

462
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: and there's no weirdness going on. Then you get to

463
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: intense personal and that's when you start to internalize the

464
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: values of that person and consider them a soul mate.

465
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: Those to me feel like disparate things, Like.

466
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty wide window.

467
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: Because when I first read it that, I was like, yeah,

468
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: internalizing the values of like someone doing good things, it's

469
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: like that's great, But putting that in the same categories

470
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: considering their soulmate is a big stretch for me. Agreed, Okay.

471
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: And then the final level borderline pathological. That's the three

472
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: to five percent, and that's when it's what they call

473
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: celebrity worship.

474
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: That's the one. Yeah, that's the one where well, no Okay,

475
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: so borderline pathological is like the worst of it. But

476
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: I think they're all celebrity worship supposedly, and that's a

477
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: really big problem. Yes, And that's problematic because some of

478
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: the people who are like, this is not this isn't

479
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: like an actual like you guys, there's no data suggesting

480
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: that this is actually dangerous, they're saying in one of

481
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: the big problems is, you guys are interchanging the term

482
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: fan with the term celebrity worshiper, right, and yet you've

483
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: never actually studied fans, Like they've never applied the celebrity

484
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: attitude scale to groups of fans. They just applied it

485
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: to random co eds who wanted like extra credit for

486
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: their psychology class. So when when a media psychologist named

487
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: Gail Stever or Stever, Gail and Lynn, it's like a

488
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: it's pat episode up in here. So when when Gail

489
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 2: Stever applied the celebrity attitude scale to a group of

490
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 2: fans like people who go to convention like.

491
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: The bay Hive or the swift Swifties.

492
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, or who interact with other fans, people who've written

493
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: letters to a celebrity or something like that, like fans

494
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: like above average fans. Yeah, they found that most of

495
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: them didn't even rise to the criteria for that first

496
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: entertainment social level, right, and that there is a definite

497
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: distinction between being a fan and being a celebrity worshiper.

498
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: And anything could tell you that, but you can thank

499
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: Gail Stever for proving it.

500
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're interrogating all these swifties and they're like, dude,

501
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: you're being weird. I just think she's awesome and like

502
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: her music and go to see her shows, and you know,

503
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: fans get together and talk like, just back off. You're

504
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: being very.

505
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: Strange, right, But we wouldn't have a great pantheon of

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: creepy movies if it weren't for that. Oh yeah, you know,

507
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: celebrity worship, the borderline pathology. There's a lot of those,

508
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: huh yes, but they may be generally made up.

509
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm not sure are any of them good. What comes

510
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: to mind is the Robert de Niro Wesley Snipes one.

511
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: Because we haven't even talked about sports. That one thing

512
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: that you sent me that is accurate is when you're

513
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: at home screaming at a football player for dropping a

514
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: pass or something that's a parasocial interaction.

515
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: Right, So that's a parasocial interaction. You can imad that

516
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 2: that player knowing his wife's name and when they got married,

517
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: that's the beginnings of a parasocial relationship. That's the distinction.

518
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: Parasocial interaction can be cold out of just about anybody.

519
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: Sure if you're into whatever you're watching, but that doesn't

520
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: mean you're going to follow up after the game or

521
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: the episode is.

522
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: Over, right, And don't ever talk back at the movie screen,

523
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: although it can be funny.

524
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: In the theater. Yeah, no, never.

525
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: I mean I don't do it, and I think it's rude.

526
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,239
Speaker 1: But I've also had a pretty good laugh or two

527
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: when someone timed it out just right. My famous story

528
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: about the Witch in New York that I won't repeat.

529
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll just tell you what episode, go find it.

530
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: I forget stuff. Do you want to take a second break.

531
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's see that. We'll be we'll get back

532
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: here in a minute, and we'll talk about some of

533
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: the benefits perhaps, and then the dark side right after this.

534
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: Okay. So I think we kind of laid out that

535
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: there's a really big disagreement on whether this is actually

536
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: problematic or not. I kind of tend to lean in

537
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: the camp that not, although for some people it can

538
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: be okay. Yeah, But there's also like a whole other

539
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: school of thought that this is actually helpful in some ways,

540
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: in some surprising ways too, but in ways that you

541
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: would you would probably guess like that you are physically, emotionally,

542
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: psychologically getting a benefit out of that parasocial relationship. That

543
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: if you have a favorite podcast and favorite podcasters and

544
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: we and you listen to them, you feel like you're

545
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: hanging out with your friends. You're receiving positive benefits from that.

546
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: And as long as you're not replacing real life friends, yeah,

547
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: with podcast friends, because your real life friends are bothering you,

548
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: they bug you're you're you're getting basically nothing but benefit

549
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: from it.

550
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And some of the other specific benefits are examples

551
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: of where and you see this more and more of

552
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: these days with well with all kinds of people, actors

553
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: and pop stars and stuff. Talking about mental health, people

554
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: have many many, many people have sought treatment for themselves

555
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: because their favorite singer has been open and honest about

556
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: an eating disorder or a mental challenge. I think Dave

557
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: is the example of Katie Couric years ago when she

558
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: her husband died of colon cancer, and she did a

559
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: broadcast where she got a colonoscopy, and the rate of

560
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: people getting colonoscopies jumped after that. So it literally can

561
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: help people be physically and mentally healthier because they're taking

562
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: a queue, Like they may not want to listen to

563
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: their friend who says, hey, you should get some help,

564
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: but they'll listen to Edie Brikel what say, Wow, I

565
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: don't know how that happened, but no question just goes

566
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: Billie Eilish and Adie Brikell say you know you should

567
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: you should see ke help if you're having struggles with

568
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: this certain thing.

569
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, that's a benefit for for all two right,

570
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that you're like you're just doing

571
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: what the celebrity you like tells you to. There's a

572
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: certain amount of I think, just raising awareness that is

573
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: an accountant for in that as well. Also supposedly, having

574
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: a parasocial relationship with somebody in an outgroup from you

575
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: can actually create feelings of empathy towards real life members

576
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: of that out group totally. There was a twenty twenty

577
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: study published in Communications Research that had participants watched ten

578
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: weeks of a show that featured LGBTQ plus people as

579
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: outgroup people, and over the ten weeks, most of the

580
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: people developed at least an affinity for the outgroup people,

581
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: but some people actually developed parasocial relationships with them. And

582
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: the groups that were the most prejudiced against gay people

583
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: going into the study had the most growth and actually

584
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: had lower lessened attitudes of prejudice toward gay people after

585
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: the study because they were exposed to gay people through TV,

586
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: through these characters that they developed some form of parasocial

587
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: relationship with.

588
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like, I usually don't like homosexuals, but after watching,

589
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: after being forced to watch Six Feet Under, Keith and

590
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: Michael's story was so sweet and I just really love

591
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: those guys. That happens, And that's why, and that's one

592
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: reason why representation matters. Just one reason.

593
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: Go ahead, So, Chuck, speaking of gay love stories, I

594
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: saw Have you seen The Last of Us? I'm sure

595
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: you have.

596
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I played the game as well. I was

597
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: waiting to it.

598
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: So the I think episode three the best.

599
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Nikauferman just amazing, dude, It is so amazing.

600
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: So if you have a relative who is homophobic, just

601
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: start watching the Last of Us and they like guns

602
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: episode yeah, and hate zombies and episode three will spring

603
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: on them and before they know it, they'll love gay

604
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: people for the rest of their lives. It's amazingly well done.

605
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: Well, you know the story there is in the game.

606
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: There is a just one brief mention of the partner

607
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: I can't think of his name now, Yeah, there's only yeah,

608
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: there's only one mention of Frank when he just says

609
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: something in the game about like, yeah, I lost a

610
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: partner a year ago something something, And you don't even

611
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: know when you're playing the game if it was like

612
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: a business partner or whatever. And then when they made

613
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: the TV show, they said, hey, this is like a

614
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: chance to go off script and to build a richer

615
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: world and to like make this great episode of this

616
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: awesome backstory. Yeah, and it was, you know, hal was

617
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: like one of the best TV episodes of the year

618
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: of like any show.

619
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so good, amazing. Nick Offerman just did such

620
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: a great job.

621
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other guy from White Lotus got he's

622
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: so good.

623
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: I've never seen him before. I've not watched that show.

624
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: Oh I think you would like White Lotus.

625
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: I've heard, I've heard, I've heard.

626
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Murray what's his name, Aby something? F Murray Abraham, No,

627
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: Murray Bartlett. He's fantastic.

628
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Has he been in anything else besides

629
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: White Lotus? I might have seen him in because I've

630
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: been recognized him, but he had a pretty thick beer.

631
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't know he's so good at White Lotus though.

632
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll check it. I'll check he's.

633
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: He's been another stuff, and he's certainly like probably more

634
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: busy than he's ever been now because of those roles.

635
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so where were we, Chuck? We were talking about.

636
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: Well, some of the benefits too. One thing that we've

637
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: seen over the years is that you're not weird as

638
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: a forty something year old person to not have a

639
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: parasocial relationship, because generally speaking, teens and adolescents are more

640
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: likely to have these than adults do. And for teens

641
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: it can be kind of like we said before, if

642
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: there's if Edie Brikel is telling a teen about her

643
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: struggles with something, it's a really big deal for a

644
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: teen or an adolescent to know that they're not alone,

645
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: that they can seek help, and they're not weird because

646
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: their favorite person, their favorite singer, also has the same thing.

647
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: Right, that's incredibly beneficial. Yeah, I mean to help kids

648
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: that are just feel completely isolated and make them feel

649
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: less alone. Also, apparently this is an explanation for the

650
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: trope of young girls, like pre adolescent adolescent girls having

651
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: crushes on like Scott Bayo or who else that's not

652
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: a jerk.

653
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: The Bay City Rollers.

654
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Bay City Rollers. Of course, everybody went through

655
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: that that they're actually like the parasocial relationship helps them

656
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: kind of explore what a real relationship is going to be, like,

657
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: what their expectations are, what their wants or what their

658
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: needs are. Yeah, you're kind there.

659
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there a.

660
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 2: Significant other to have Bay City Rollers hair.

661
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, the aka the best hair.

662
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

663
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: I said that because I remember when I was a

664
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: kid very specifically. I have a memory of we had

665
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: a babysitter over one night, and the babysitter was a

666
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: girl that was older than my sister. So my sister

667
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: must have been pretty young because she's six years old

668
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: than me and she usually was the babysitter by that point.

669
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: But I remember them sitting around with a bas City

670
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: Rollers record and spinning it around and dropping their finger

671
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: on the album and whichever, you know, roller that their

672
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: finger landed nearest to was the one that they would

673
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: fall in love with. I'm such a memory of that

674
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: when I was like five years old or something. It's

675
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: very funny.

676
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, did it just blow your mind? Or were you like,

677
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: what is this crying? No?

678
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: I got it, And you know, I famously had My

679
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: very first crush was Christy McNichol, who is gay. So

680
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what that says about me.

681
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: What was she and aiden is it enough?

682
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: No? She was in God, I mean she was in

683
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: movies and stuff. She was sort of just the cute

684
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: girl next door when we were well, I'm older than you,

685
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: but when I was.

686
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 2: A kid, I remember. I just don't remember what she

687
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: was in.

688
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of something. I mean, she was

689
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: in movies and stuff like Little Darlings and stuff that

690
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to watch. But I think she was

691
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: on a TV show too.

692
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm familiar with her. I can't remember what.

693
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: Oh family it was on that family.

694
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: That's why I thought it was eight is enough. It's

695
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: basically the same.

696
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: Thing exactly, there just weren't eight of them.

697
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: I think. So again can be very beneficial. Usually very harmless.

698
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: There is a dark side. That's not to say that

699
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: there isn't that that parasocial relationships can't go wrong, or

700
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: that they can be harmful or it can't be harmful.

701
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: And one of the one of the ways that I

702
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: said that media is built on itself over and over again. Yeah, kid,

703
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: going from radio to TV TV. Apparently. Another big crest

704
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: of this was when reality shows came along, yep, made

705
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 2: people even more connected to the people on the screen.

706
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: And then social media came along, and that is it's

707
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: it's almost like it was designed to get into your

708
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: brain and be like, this person is legitimately your friends.

709
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: They liked your post, they may even like DM back

710
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: and forth with you, they might respond to your email.

711
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: They know who you are, they're your friend, and at

712
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: that point, it being that realistic, it can trick you

713
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: into forgetting that they aren't your friend, they don't really

714
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: know you. And this is a parasocial relationship, especially especially

715
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 2: for developing minds.

716
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, because all of a sudden, you have twenty

717
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: four to seven access depending on how active someone is

718
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: in social media, where they are really sharing their life,

719
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: and you see a post by someone and you think, oh,

720
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: my gosh, I have a black main coon cat too,

721
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: and I had that same tile in your bathroom. You're

722
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: getting the little glimpses. And I mentioned Tyle because I

723
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: did the same thing. I saw Melissa McCarthy post something

724
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: one time and I had the same tile that she did,

725
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: and I, like a dope, thought, Oh my god, we

726
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: have the same taste. We would be such good friends.

727
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: Well, she's a huge TikTok influencer, so I'm sure that

728
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: happens still lots of people.

729
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: Oh is she really? Oh I don't know.

730
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

731
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: I've never been on TikTok.

732
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: I see her more on Instagram.

733
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. But they classify it as unhealthy when it's

734
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: disrupts your life, when it disrupts your daily life day

735
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 1: to day, and if it's damaging or replacing your real

736
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: life relationships. That's when it's if you're spending money like

737
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: the furthest extreme is when all of a sudden you've

738
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: quit your job because you have to go live in

739
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: the city where this person is, or you're spending a

740
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: lot of money collecting expensive memorabilia or buying them gifts

741
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: and sending them. That's where it gets into the potential

742
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: stalker realm.

743
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: Yes, or that you threaten self harm if they don't

744
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: respond to you, or yeah, it can be it can

745
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: get problematic. And again this is exceedingly rare. I don't

746
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: think it's like a huge thing. To lose sleepover is

747
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: like no a parent or a concerned person, but it

748
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: can't happen. And again that just the combination of social

749
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: media and at developing brains. It's just so dangerous in

750
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: so many different ways and so potentially harmful in so

751
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: many different ways. And this is one of those ways

752
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: that it can happen. One of the other I think

753
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: risk factors is is it is possible to kind of

754
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 2: let your in real life relationships dwindle as because you're

755
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: putting more and more focus and energy into your parasocial relationship.

756
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: And that also is kind of like a self defeating

757
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: thing because there's fewer people to kind of pull you

758
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: back toward reality and say like, no, no, where are

759
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: your friends? That person is an influencer, doesn't even know

760
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: you exist. So let's go get some ice cream and

761
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: play Fortnite while we do.

762
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Right, that's a nice call up.

763
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: You're not even in gamer No, I'm not, but I've

764
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: heard of Fortnite before on TV.

765
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: So there's an article that they found that is really

766
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: interesting and good, I think from The Guardian from a

767
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: couple of years ago by Rachel aerost I guess called

768
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: Tragic but True colon how podcasters replaced our real friends,

769
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: and Rachel makes a very strong case that podcasting has

770
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: even up the game even more parasocially speaking, and COVID

771
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: really helped with that because during COVID, when people were

772
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: locked in and they weren't seeing their friends face to

773
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: face anymore, they would have a zoom meetings and phone

774
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: calls with certainly with their business associates, but also with friends.

775
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: I mean I did this a few times where I

776
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: would get on a zoom with a friend from out

777
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: of town or even in town, and all of a sudden,

778
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: podcasting increased. I think fifty one percent of podcast listeners

779
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: say they first started listening during the pandemic, and it

780
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: grew forty percent from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two.

781
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: So not only are more people listening, but they're listening

782
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: in this very intimate way, and you know, people are

783
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: in their ear holes and you're looking and interacting the

784
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: same way you were on like a zoom because you

785
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: were robbed of contact with your friends. So it's basically

786
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: there was nothing to distinguish the two except talking back.

787
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: What a weird turn of events too, for sure. But

788
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: the thing is is so the I think that title

789
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: is very misleading because if you read it, she's not

790
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: actually really lamenting it. She's more just kind of documenting it. Yeah,

791
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: I think. And she also makes the point that this

792
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: was at a time during the pandemic, during like lockdowns,

793
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: where you were physically unable to interact with friends, and

794
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: podcasts made a pretty great substitute for a while, and

795
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: that that in and of itself makes it less harmful.

796
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: I might be a little biased, but I do think

797
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: that yes, being in people's ears is one of those triggers,

798
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: like looking at people in the camera was with TV

799
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: early on, Like that's a very very intimate to let

800
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: somebody to let their voice be in your mind and

801
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 2: basically take over your mind for that period of time.

802
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: And that's of course what we're doing everybody, we're experimenting.

803
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the other thing too is podcasting is they

804
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: found this great Honors thesis by someone named Mikayla Nadora

805
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: from Portland State University a few years ago called Parasocial

806
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: Relationships with podcast Hosts, where Mikayla even references stuff you

807
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: should know, which is very great.

808
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: She the whole thing is about stuff you should know,

809
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: all thirty seven pages. Yeah, I remember her sending this

810
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 2: to us when she published.

811
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: Oh that's right, God, I totally remember that. Now we

812
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: get a lot of thesis actually interestingly, but the whole

813
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: upshot is that with podcasting, anyone can do it. You

814
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: have to have a small amount of equipment in the Internet,

815
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: and it's not like you have to, you know, go

816
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: through the trials and tribulations of someone auditioning for a

817
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: role to eventually get on TV and stuff like that,

818
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: and then you're a big star. It's like it's a

819
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: low barrier to entry. And that means that there's going

820
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: to be a lot of just sort of everyday people

821
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: and regular schmos like you and I doing this, and

822
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: that lends itself even more to people thinking like, of

823
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: course we're friends, Like I'm not gonna be friends with

824
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: Carrie Bradshaw or Sarah Jessica Parker because they're just so fabulous.

825
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: But Chuck and Josh are just Normy's like us, so

826
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: we would be.

827
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: Friends normcore to the max. We are. Another thing that

828
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: Mikhael and Nadora kind of susted out as a trigger

829
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: or Q, is that a lot of times people listen

830
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: to podcasts alone. A lot of people listen and listen

831
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: to them with other people, but for the I would

832
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: say the vast majority alone, I think listen to them alone.

833
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: But they're also listening to them while they're doing other

834
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: activities like vacuuming or commuting or going to the grocery store.

835
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: So it's like we're along for the ride. We're keeping

836
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: you company while you're doing all this stuff. We're just

837
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: sitting in the backseat having a conversation that you're listening

838
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: to while you drive us to the grocery store.

839
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: Right, and also as we have done over the years,

840
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: and especially you know, there are all kinds of podcasts,

841
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: but they found that the ones, I know it makes

842
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: sense with the strongest parasocial bonds are ones like this

843
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: where it's sort of people chatting, conversational usually comedy and

844
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: not like a dramatic like I don't know, true crime.

845
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: I guess they can have that angle with the hoster

846
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: have a lot of personality, Yeah, Karen and Georgia, Yeah

847
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: for sure. But with shows like the ones that we do,

848
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: you talk inevitably about our lives and a house project

849
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: we're doing, or Momo or Nico and Charlie or you

850
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: Me and Emily or Ruby, and people get invested because

851
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: they know this stuff about us and they know they

852
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: feel like they know these people, like who gets the

853
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: biggest applause at any lives when Emily and you Me

854
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: are there? Emily and you Me, people are thrilled when

855
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: they're there. And Ruby was at her first live show

856
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: in Atlanta and people were just like, I mean, people

857
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: are kind of staring at her, and I didn't get

858
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: creeped out because people are being super sweet and friendly

859
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: and they thought it was so sweet that she was

860
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: at her first show. But people hear these stories, and

861
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: I get it because I do the same thing with

862
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: my podcast hosts that I love, and it all just

863
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: makes sense, like recalling jokes and people have especially with us,

864
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: have lived fifteen sixteen years with us, and that whole

865
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: thing where people get mad when their favorite celebrity couple

866
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: gets a divorce, like it's it's so weird to think about,

867
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: but Emily and I get mad when Susan Saranon and

868
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: Tim Robbins split up, and if Emily and I got divorced,

869
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: people would hate my guts that listen to this show.

870
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think what she kind of sums all

871
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 2: that up in is that that's one of the benefits

872
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 2: of having a long running podcast or listening to a

873
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: long running podcast. Little by little, all that stuff comes

874
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: out and you become immeshed in the other that hosts life,

875
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: Like you know what's going on in their life, and

876
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 2: that's exactly what you do with friends. You know what's

877
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: going on in their life. You know their dog's name

878
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: and that their dog is great, and you know their

879
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: wife's name and their wife is great. You just know

880
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: this stuff. And it's just another way that media is

881
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 2: tricking our brains, which are programmed to seek social connections,

882
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: into thinking, oh, I've got a social connection going on.

883
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: This is pretty great, right, and people don't know that

884
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: I can be very moody and passive aggressive, like even

885
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: in a podcast medium like this, where it is real

886
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: for the most part, you don't want to show that

887
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: stuff on the air. You put your best self forward.

888
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: Even in a medium like this, right.

889
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: That's why they coin that term persona or persona because yeah,

890
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: that's it's just no one does that. Maybe what was

891
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: that horrible punk guy who used to eat his own

892
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: poop on stage? Yes, maybe gg Allen would do that

893
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 2: if he were still alive and had a podcast. But

894
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: for the most part, no, anybody, no matter who it is,

895
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: is going to at the very least put some semblance

896
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 2: of their best self forward. Even if it's not one

897
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: hundred percent. It doesn't mean it's made up. It's that

898
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: you're holding some stuff back because it's just you don't

899
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: share that with people you've never met before. And in

900
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: that sense, we the hosts are aware that you can

901
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 2: form a parasocial relationship with us, we can't do that

902
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: with you, So that inherently makes us slightly guarded to

903
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: some degree or another and creates for you, guys, a

904
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,439
Speaker 2: persona that is an idealized version of us.

905
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If I talk about being passive, aggressive,

906
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: or moody, that ramps up the relationship because people can

907
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: identify with that. I just can't be that to you

908
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: on the air, Yeah, because then people would witness the

909
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: actual act of it and say, well, geez CHUCKSA can

910
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: be a real moody jerk sometimes.

911
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: I know it'd be like the crossword puzzle all over

912
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 2: it again. Oh no, oh no, I'm kidding. Great episode,

913
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: but man, that got everybody up to set, you know,

914
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: like they were like, what is going on? Like is

915
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: this the end of stuff you should know? Oh? I know.

916
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: I think I took my enthusiasm for crosswords and got weird.

917
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: Oh it was fine. I think it's a classic app

918
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: It was a good one too, but I mean the

919
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: fact that it has just that little ball of weirdness

920
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: in there. I love. Sure, classic stuff you should know.

921
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: Uh, I mean that's all I got. I think it

922
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 1: is super interesting for sure.

923
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: This is a what made you choose this? One? That

924
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure everybody wants to know because they'll feel closer

925
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: to you if you tell them.

926
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: I don't Dave might have actually thought of this or no,

927
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: maybe maybe i'd a because I didn't even know this

928
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: was a term. I've lived it on both sides, but

929
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: I never knew people studied it, so, uh, I don't know.

930
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: Maybe that's where it came from. I just saw the

931
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: words and I was like, oh wait, that's me. Both times,

932
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: chuck both ways.

933
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: There you go. That comes after the colon from Parasocial Relationship.

934
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: It's chuck both ways.

935
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a fine dish in a great restaurant. All right,

936
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: sure you never had that, like scallop two ways or whatever.

937
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: That's the thing.

938
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 2: I made salad four ways, check salad like a niche

939
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 2: wase salad. Okay, what were the other two? Oh? One

940
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: was like a corn and bean salad.

941
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: Okay, sounds good.

942
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 2: And then there was another one, and I was like,

943
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: my god, I made four salads. Yeah, there's a lot

944
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: of leftover salad, but it.

945
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: Was good salad forward ways.

946
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: I like it.

947
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: When I came over, he only made me three salads,

948
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: so I'm a little salty.

949
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 2: I was holding back. I still perfecting the fourth one.

950
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: I'll make that fourth one for you some other time.

951
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: Please.

952
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we're done with this episode. You

953
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: said that's all you got, It's all I've got. I'm

954
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: done talking about salad. So that means it's time for

955
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 2: listener mail.

956
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this inspiration. Hey guys, I want

957
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: to reach out and say that I love your show.

958
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: My husband discovered it showed it to me. I haven't

959
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: stopped listening since when I was a stay at home

960
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: mom feeling lonely, I would turn on the show and

961
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: feel like I was having a conversation with friends. That's funny,

962
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 1: I didn't even preread this one.

963
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 2: No way, really yeahs.

964
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: And Kinley says parentheses in the least creepy way possible.

965
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: I always could to include that. Your show even gave

966
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: me the inspiration idea to write a daily true crime

967
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: calendar as a way for me to share my interest

968
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: with others just like you. In fact, several days in

969
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: my calendar are inspired by some of your episodes. By

970
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: getting this idea from you to work on the calendar,

971
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: it helped me through a postpartum anxiety wow, and helped

972
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: me feel like I was helping to provide for my

973
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: new little one. I would love to show my appreciation

974
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: by sending you each a copy of my calendar. If

975
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: you would like one, just reply send my address so hey,

976
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: you can send it. Here's my home address. I'm just kidding.

977
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: So grateful I was able to discover the show, because

978
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be where I would am now if I

979
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: hadn't keep doing the good work. I'll look forward to

980
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: hearing from you and that is from ken Lee. Ken Lee, Yeah,

981
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: Kinley and I Kimle Yeah. I want one of these

982
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: true crime calendars. I love a daily calendar. I just

983
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: need to send kin Lee the address.

984
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, same here, so please spell kim Lee or Kinley's

985
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: name kay I n l e Y Kinley. Oh yeah,

986
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 2: like Mount McKinley, but without the mount or.

987
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: The Mitchy exactly.

988
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 2: Kinley, thank you so much for that email. Like I

989
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 2: said at the beginning of this episode, we love hearing

990
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: stuff like that, so we're glad we could help in

991
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: some way. And I'd love a calendar too. If you

992
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: want to be like Kinlee and get in touch with us,

993
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: you can send us an email as well. Send it

994
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:01,399
Speaker 2: off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

995
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

996
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

997
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.