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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. For many people, hours upon

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Speaker 1: hours upon hours are spent in the gym, working out,

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Speaker 1: trying to make their so called temple a thing of beauty,

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Speaker 1: something that would be admired by everyone they came in

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Speaker 1: contact with, something that maybe other people desire to have

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Speaker 1: for themselves. The way we appear outside doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: that what we have within us it's going to be

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Speaker 1: very beautiful at all. As a matter of fact, it

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Speaker 1: can absolutely be rotten to the Today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about a thirty nine year old mama and her

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Speaker 1: death at the hands of her husband. I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. Jackie Howard, executive producer

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Speaker 1: of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining me today. Jackie,

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Speaker 1: did you ever see something that's it has a luster

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Speaker 1: to it. It's something that you think that you want,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you look back on it. I think

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Speaker 1: many times as you get older and you think, man, think, heavens,

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Speaker 1: I didn't acquire that thing in my life, And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: in this case, this is something that really turned bad

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Speaker 1: and very ugly. After many years of marriage, Katie Bonnock

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Speaker 1: was reported missing to Florida police, and she had, before

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Speaker 1: her disappearance, accused her ex husband of physically abusing one

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Speaker 1: of their children, and she had gone to court to

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Speaker 1: get a restraining order against him, asking that the court

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Speaker 1: send him for counseling. Now. The night before she went

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Speaker 1: and missing, Katie Bonmock dropped her children off at a

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Speaker 1: friend's house. She was on her way to her ex

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Speaker 1: husband's home to pick up some of her things, and

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Speaker 1: that was the last time Katie Bonock was seen alive.

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Speaker 1: The next day, police officers visited Ian Bonnock, that was

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Speaker 1: her ex husband, and found that her car was still

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Speaker 1: parked in his driveway, her purse was inside, and neither

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Speaker 1: of the individual was expected to be at the residence

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Speaker 1: Ian or Katie could be found. Police left and the

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Speaker 1: detectives came back and found Katie Bonnock's car had been moved,

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Speaker 1: and detectives went for a search warrant. What can the

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Speaker 1: simple movement, the moving of a card tell you to

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Speaker 1: make you so suspicious that you try to get a

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Speaker 1: search warrant? Well, it implies activity. You go there and

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Speaker 1: you don't get an answer at the door, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: things are not as they appeared. Upon the initial viewing,

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Speaker 1: and so for investigators, that's that's a huge red of flag,

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Speaker 1: particularly when you've got a mama that's missing. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about an individual that's responsible for little lives, right, and

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Speaker 1: you know that makes it all the more urgent. How

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Speaker 1: many times do we hear about these cases where people

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Speaker 1: will say, well, they're an adult, they have a decision

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Speaker 1: to make, they can leave and all that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and know the police will delay in taking a missing

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Speaker 1: person's report. However, when you're talking about a mother that

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Speaker 1: goes missing and there's no explanation for it or whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: and you've got children that are kind of out here

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Speaker 1: without that support system that every child deserves from their mother,

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Speaker 1: it causes police to be a bit more sensitive to

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Speaker 1: what's going on. It's more of a motivating factor. And

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Speaker 1: when she's missing and they come back and the cars

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Speaker 1: have been rearranged, they have to get an answer for

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Speaker 1: that because they're actively looking for her at that point

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Speaker 1: in time, and you begin to think, well, she's disappeared,

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Speaker 1: she goes to her ex husband's house, that's the last

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Speaker 1: time she's known to be alive, or at least her

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Speaker 1: last destination that anyone knew of and suddenly she just

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Speaker 1: vaporizes and no one can find her anywhere. So is

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Speaker 1: that enough for probable cause for a warrant to enter

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Speaker 1: somebody's residence at that point in time? And the police

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Speaker 1: have to consider that they want to go find her

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, And it's at that juncture

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Speaker 1: once they get that warrant and they can enter the

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Speaker 1: resonance that suddenly things don't turn out the way they

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Speaker 1: expected them to. There's evidence of a struggle in the home.

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Speaker 1: Her rings are found there, which are her wedding ring

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Speaker 1: and her engagement ring. Who's going to remove those and

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Speaker 1: have them there? You know, she was always known to

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Speaker 1: wear them. The police theorized that when she went to

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Speaker 1: the house, she actually took those items with her and

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Speaker 1: gave them to him. You know, is it to say

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Speaker 1: I don't want these anymore and you never know? You

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Speaker 1: never know? Is that an act of provocation at that point?

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Speaker 1: Is that enough to make somebody angry to the point

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Speaker 1: where they're going to do great harm to an individual?

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Speaker 1: Besides the sign of a struggle that you mentioned, police

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Speaker 1: also found blood in Ian Bonnox's trunk. They used luminol.

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Speaker 1: That's how they found the blood by using luminol. So

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Speaker 1: as many times as you've explained this to me, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I need you to tell me again, walk me through this,

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Speaker 1: because I am amazed at what can be done with

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Speaker 1: the chemical reaction that we can see blood after someone

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Speaker 1: has tried to clean it up after a long time,

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Speaker 1: and walk me through the process again. It is really fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And there's a couple of these agents

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Speaker 1: that are out there that we use in forensics. Lumino,

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Speaker 1: of course it's most famously known. There's another one called

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Speaker 1: blue Star, and they act basically the same way. The

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Speaker 1: principle is is that those things that can no longer

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Speaker 1: be seen with what we refer to in science, as

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Speaker 1: with the unaided eye, as the way it's generally phrased,

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Speaker 1: particularly by forensic pathologists, can actually be revitalized and brought

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Speaker 1: back to life. And Luminov's kind of fascinating it. It

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Speaker 1: works in the same manner. It's a chemical fluorescence, is

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Speaker 1: what is what actually happens, And it's kind of the

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Speaker 1: same principle as we see with flies or as we

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Speaker 1: stay down here in the south lightning bugs, and it's

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Speaker 1: the same the same principle that that that when the

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Speaker 1: agent of luminol is applied to an area that previously

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Speaker 1: held blood, and no matter how minor that deposit of

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Speaker 1: blood might be, it will luminate us. And what's happening

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Speaker 1: is if you think about substance it's called hemoglobin that's

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Speaker 1: contained within our blood. Hemoglobin acts is like a little

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Speaker 1: vehicle that transports our RBC's, our red blood cells, those

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Speaker 1: the oxygenated blood cells that are kind of moving through

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Speaker 1: our system, and it's it's bound up with proteins. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things with the with the hemoglobin is

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Speaker 1: that it it has traces of minerals in in it.

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Speaker 1: Iron for instance, the mineral iron is found in there,

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Speaker 1: and the luminole actually reacts with the iron, and so

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Speaker 1: it'll it'll give you a snapshot and almost literally a snapshot,

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Speaker 1: because when you apply luminol to an area, you got

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Speaker 1: about thirty seconds. So the point of it is to

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Speaker 1: document the location of where you suspect blood is and

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Speaker 1: the photographer that's there. First off, you have to do

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Speaker 1: it in the dark. Take these photographs in the dark.

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Speaker 1: You have to have what's called long or extended shutter speed.

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Speaker 1: The shutter has to remain open because it's trying to

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Speaker 1: grab all the available light in order to document that

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Speaker 1: image photographically. I think a lot of people believe that

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Speaker 1: with luminol, first off, that if you apply it to

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Speaker 1: the area, you're not going to be able to appreciate detail.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell something, Jackie. You can appreciate splash patterns.

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Speaker 1: You can appreciate the dynamics of blood as to the stain,

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Speaker 1: like we talk about velocity, where we've got low, low, medium,

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Speaker 1: and high velocity blood staining that goes on. You can

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Speaker 1: appreciate that. You can appreciate what are called wipes and swipes,

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Speaker 1: particularly wipes, because what do people try to do when

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Speaker 1: you can't see blood with the unaided eye, like we

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Speaker 1: just mentioned, Well, many times they tried to wipe it up.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they've tried to drag a mop through it, for instance,

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Speaker 1: and you'll see these long swipes and wipes that kind

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Speaker 1: of go through it. And you can pick up on

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Speaker 1: that and what does that mean, Well, it means that

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Speaker 1: there was blood there, and it means that there was

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Speaker 1: probably an attempt to clean it up at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. And contrary to a popular opinion, just because

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Speaker 1: you apply luminol to an area where you believe blood

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Speaker 1: was and you can verify that there was blood there.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that the luminol doesn't actually impact DNA

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Speaker 1: to the degree that many people think. We can still

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Speaker 1: recover DNA in those environments, even though they're not the

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Speaker 1: best circumstances. You can still recover vible DNA that you

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Speaker 1: can use for typing. So it's a wonderful substance. And

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Speaker 1: what it does is it actually documents activity, and that's

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Speaker 1: the most important thing, because we're not witnessed to these

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Speaker 1: violent events that take place. There's the old adage about

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Speaker 1: blood will tell and blood does tell, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's interesting in the sense that it's almost like a

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Speaker 1: historic record of what had occurred in that location, and

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Speaker 1: now somebody is attempted to alter it and moving forward,

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Speaker 1: they're hoping that they're going to completely disguise it. So

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Speaker 1: you've got this blood that's found at the scene, and

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Speaker 1: most notably when they encountered the blood in the trunk,

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Speaker 1: the ex husband actually stated that, well, that that blood

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Speaker 1: was there as a result of groceries, and well, okay, groceries,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean are you saying that you've got

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Speaker 1: leaking ground beef or leaking pot roast that was back there.

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Speaker 1: And to another point, somebody says something like, well, this

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Speaker 1: is not human blood, this is animal blood. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: well we can make a determination about that because there's

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Speaker 1: actually testing that we do relative to determination of blood

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Speaker 1: within the construct of forensic sceurology, which is a study

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Speaker 1: of blood, which is pretty dynamic. We think about everything

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Speaker 1: that we can do because of the steps along that

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Speaker 1: continuum relative to the blood that we have it as seen.

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Speaker 1: We have to think about first off, is what we're

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Speaker 1: seeing is it blood? Because you can't just walk up

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Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there's blood here. You don't, I mean,

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Speaker 1: no investigator worth their salt would ever do that. I

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Speaker 1: think I've said before I've seen areas that appear to

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Speaker 1: be blood that turned out to be melted chocolate. And

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Speaker 1: I've seen things that I thought were chocolate that turned

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Speaker 1: out to be blood. So you can't just eyeball an

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Speaker 1: area and say it's blood. So you have to test

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Speaker 1: it to see if in fact it's blood. And then

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Speaker 1: the next step that you go to is you test

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Speaker 1: it and see if it's animal or human, and then

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Speaker 1: from there you try to narrow it down to what

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Speaker 1: human that blood belongs to, if in fact it is

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Speaker 1: human blood. So through this process of typing, and then

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Speaker 1: of course you can take it down to a really

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Speaker 1: fine point where you get to DNA analysis and you

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Speaker 1: can be very very specific with you. Years gone by,

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Speaker 1: all we had was type where we would do the

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Speaker 1: various blood types. But nowadays you can put a very

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Speaker 1: very fine point on it. This is totally off topic,

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Speaker 1: but who in the world thought, Hey, if I sprayed

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Speaker 1: this chemical on blood, I'll bet I can see it

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Speaker 1: under a black light. That's actually a pretty interesting story,

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Speaker 1: and it goes back I guess, I think if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken, that this kind of illuminescence was first discovered

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Speaker 1: all the way back, I think in like the nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenties by a German scientist. It's like anything that kind

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Speaker 1: of happens where you kind of bump up against discoveries

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Speaker 1: in science and suddenly you find something like this. I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine, and I'm kind of superimposing my thoughts

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Speaker 1: about this relative to scientific discovery. You think about some

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Speaker 1: scientists that's in a lapse somewhere and he discovers this

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Speaker 1: agent that he can to blood and luminess and you think, well,

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of fascinating. Let's move on to the

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Speaker 1: next thing. But he documents it, and then moving forward

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Speaker 1: in time, you get into like the nineteen thirties and

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Speaker 1: you've actually got a forensic scientist that looks at this

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, you know what, I think that we

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Speaker 1: could use this discovery from back in the twenties to

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Speaker 1: actually appreciate what was happening at a crime scene. And

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Speaker 1: sure enough, they did it. They began to apply it

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Speaker 1: in the thirties. Of course, it wasn't something that was

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Speaker 1: widely known about at that time, and it takes time

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Speaker 1: for these tests to evolve over a period of time,

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Speaker 1: and eventually it just kind of got into our cannon,

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Speaker 1: you know, our scientific cannon that this is something that

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Speaker 1: you're going to that you're going to apply and use.

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Speaker 1: And now you know, the everyday person knows about luminalf

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Speaker 1: So it's another one of those great things, a mistake

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Speaker 1: that turned into a great discovery. Yeah, yeah, you're you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right, and that's it's a fantastic tool. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: back to the case, when police talked to the husband

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Speaker 1: about the blood that was found in this trunk. He said,

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Speaker 1: she's not missing. You don't have a body. He blamed

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Speaker 1: the blood as you mentioned earlier on oh I brought

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Speaker 1: in groceries. It could have been the meat that seemed

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Speaker 1: But then he told police that he didn't believe that

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Speaker 1: blood was found in the hallway. When investigators continued their search,

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Speaker 1: they found a burn pile on the property, and inside

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Speaker 1: they found part of a jawbone and a tooth. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to have that discussion that we always have

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Speaker 1: about how hard it is to burn a body. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is kind of interesting because before we

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Speaker 1: get to the burn pile, which was recent, they found

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Speaker 1: this barrel. It's like a fifty fifty gallon oil drum

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Speaker 1: that's immediately adjacent to this area, and the investigators were

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Speaker 1: immediately struck by the smell of decay within this barrel

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Speaker 1: that something had begun to break down. And then, of course,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, there were bone fragments that were found

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Speaker 1: the jaw itself, which contained a tooth. Forensic anthropologists talk

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Speaker 1: about bones in a couple of ways, and one of

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Speaker 1: the most fascinating is they use the term robust, particularly

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Speaker 1: when it comes to male skeletal structure. They'll use the

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Speaker 1: term robust kind of tuberunt if you will. Like our

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Speaker 1: brow lines, and you think about the knot on the

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Speaker 1: back of our head, the oxyput that's back there, and

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Speaker 1: our master we process that are below our ears to

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Speaker 1: the rear. In males as tend to be very robust

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Speaker 1: and heavy dents, that sort of thing. The jaw is

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Speaker 1: very robust, and it does not surprise me in the

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Speaker 1: least bit that that that is one of the few

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Speaker 1: remnants that was actually left behind, and certainly with that

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Speaker 1: tooth as well, because teeth are not bone, they're seated

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Speaker 1: in obviously the jaw bone, the lower jaw, the mandible.

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Speaker 1: You've got thirty two teeth and an adult and you'd

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Speaker 1: be missing them, but you have thirty two spots for teeth,

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Speaker 1: and then of course the maxilla, the upper teeth. That's

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Speaker 1: the hard palate where the heart adjacent to the hard palate,

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Speaker 1: and the where the roof of the mouth is. And

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Speaker 1: it takes a protracted period of time in order to

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Speaker 1: render a body down visa the heat, and it requires

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of attention tending, if you will. And

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Speaker 1: bones kind of fascinated and there's been several studies that

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Speaker 1: have been done over the course of time relative to

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Speaker 1: how long it takes to actually render down bone. And

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Speaker 1: it goes through a variety of process and one of

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Speaker 1: the things that you'll see is that once heat is

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Speaker 1: initially applied to bone, bone will go through a series

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Speaker 1: of color changes. And the first kind of stop along

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Speaker 1: that continuum is it'll turn kind of a yellow yellow color.

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Speaker 1: And what's happening is that the bone itself is beginning

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Speaker 1: to render up any kind of fatty residue that's still

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Speaker 1: contained in there from life, and that's being consumed. And

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Speaker 1: then bone if you look at a bone that has

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Speaker 1: been burned, if it's only exposed to heat for a

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Speaker 1: short period of time, it'll take on this kind of

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Speaker 1: yellow color once that is burned off. Particularly, you can

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Speaker 1: really appreciate on the ends of the bone. Say you

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Speaker 1: take a long bone like a femur, down to say

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Speaker 1: where the knee attachment is, or up in the hip.

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Speaker 1: If a body has been dismembered, for instance, you'll get

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Speaker 1: this charring on the tips and it will have a

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Speaker 1: kind of a black color. But if bone just sits

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Speaker 1: there by itself, but yet it's continue to be subjected

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Speaker 1: to heat. One of the observations that you make is

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Speaker 1: that as the bone begins to heat up, you can

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Speaker 1: have what are referred to as heat related fractures. And

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Speaker 1: this is key because when you're looking at a bone

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to assess trauma, you're trying to first off,

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Speaker 1: determine is this anti mortem or post mortem before death

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Speaker 1: or after death? And secondly, is this fracture that you're witnessing.

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Speaker 1: Is this as a result of trauma that was inflicted

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Speaker 1: upon this person or is this a heat related fracture,

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Speaker 1: because that does happen. Many solid items out there that

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Speaker 1: are subjected to fire will fracture as a result of heat,

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Speaker 1: and that's that happens as a result of contraction or expansion,

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Speaker 1: and so'll it'll split along those weakest spots. But what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about bone is that when it does kind of

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Speaker 1: begin to move beyond that heat fracturing stage, it begins

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Speaker 1: to present in another way where you have the pattern

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Speaker 1: becomes almost a grid like pattern where it kind of

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Speaker 1: breaks up into these little squares, and then it goes

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Speaker 1: into a stage called calcination, where the bone will have

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Speaker 1: kind of a calcific appearance. It's almost white, and you

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Speaker 1: have to be very careful with the jackie, very very

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Speaker 1: careful because when you pick it up, when it has

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Speaker 1: hit that point, it's so absent of any kind of moisture,

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Speaker 1: it's very delicate, and you can just with mirror hand strength,

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Speaker 1: you can actually crumble it in your hands. And then

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Speaker 1: if you've done that, you've lost everything that might have

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Speaker 1: any kind of evidentiary value. You're a police officers, show

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Speaker 1: up at a home and you're looking for missing mother,

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Speaker 1: and the best you can get are what appears to

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Speaker 1: be bloodstains and a remnant of a jaw with a

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Speaker 1: tooth in it. And I got to tell you, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator, first off, you'd have a very visceral reaction,

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Speaker 1: like something horrible has happened at this point. And then

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Speaker 1: I think secondly, you think, well, where do we go

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Speaker 1: from here? What do we do? Because there has to

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Speaker 1: be an explanation for all of this. If she's only

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Speaker 1: been missing for twenty four hours, why did the barrel

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Speaker 1: have such a stench of decay? Because we know decomposition,

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Speaker 1: while it begins immediately upon death, it takes more time

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Speaker 1: to have such a stench of decay, Right, I think

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Speaker 1: that many times that people will confuse when you're around

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Speaker 1: a body that has been tissue that has been burned,

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Speaker 1: it gives off a very foul odor. Or I'll give

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Speaker 1: you an example, if anyone there smelled, for instance, burned hair,

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Speaker 1: it's horrible smell. It's absolutely horrendous. I and not just

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Speaker 1: that skin gives off a very vile stench as well.

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Speaker 1: You combine that with the super heat and humidity of Florida,

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Speaker 1: things break down pretty quickly down there in that environment.

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Speaker 1: The police have not released every bit of information in

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Speaker 1: this case, and I really wonder, I really wonder if

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Speaker 1: this is an event where there was some maybe partial

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Speaker 1: dismemberment that had taken place, Because if you're going to

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Speaker 1: either use the burned barrel or the burn pile, how

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Speaker 1: do you facilitate burning the entire body and rendering it down.

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Speaker 1: What I mean by that is that once you open

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Speaker 1: a body up, once you begin to take a body apart,

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Speaker 1: that also can accelerate the process of opposition as well,

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Speaker 1: and even in a short period of time, particularly in

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Speaker 1: very hostile environmental conditions like you have in Florida, with

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00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: the heat and humidity and all of those factors that

347
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: kind of come along with that. So you've got this

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Speaker 1: kind of combination that's going on, perhaps in a very

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Speaker 1: short period of time down there. So the odor investigators

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00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: were smelling was from the attempt to render down the body. Now,

351
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Speaker 1: part of the body was found in the barrel, but

352
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Speaker 1: there were also bones found in the burn pile. So

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Speaker 1: someone took a shovel or something and moved the body.

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Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that's quite possible in just the

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Speaker 1: jostling of the body, moving the body about and this

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. Again, you're introducing these other factors into

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Speaker 1: the equation. When you're manipulating a body that has that's

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Speaker 1: obviously already been deceased, you've already got evidence that there

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Speaker 1: was injury because there's so much blood. And so again,

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Speaker 1: the injury is going to promote. First off, it's going

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Speaker 1: to promote decomposition. It will accelerate that deepended upon what

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Speaker 1: types of injuries there are. Are we talking about a

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Speaker 1: blunt force impact injury? Are we talking about the cutting injury?

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Speaker 1: And where those cuts achieved either anti mortem, before death

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Speaker 1: or post mortem. There was evidence inside the garage they're

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Speaker 1: saying against the door, there was a fantastic struggle that

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Speaker 1: apparently had gone on within the garage in that environment.

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Speaker 1: So how do you explain this deposition of blood that

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Speaker 1: is kind of off down the hallway, you talk about

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Speaker 1: it's in the trunk of the car. You've got this

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Speaker 1: evidence of struggle. You begin to think, Wow, this is

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Speaker 1: really scattered. Going into the mindset of what was going on,

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Speaker 1: this is a very scattered, kind of frenetic, disorganized kind

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Speaker 1: of event, and it gives you a sense there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of potentially anger that's involved in this, that

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00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: it is something that's just run completely amok. And of course,

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00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: as people are always saying, domestic situations many times turn

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Speaker 1: out to be the most violent of all. So here

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Speaker 1: we run into the quandary again about figuring out determining

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00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: a cause of death. If the body has been moved

381
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: multiple times one and two, an attempt has been made

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Speaker 1: to cremate the body, how are we going to discover, determine,

383
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: diagnose the cause of death. Yeah, that's a big question

384
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: that happens. And you'll see death certificates. I've actually seen

385
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: one very recently that are essentially signed out like this.

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Speaker 1: You'll see you, as we've talked about before, on bodybacks,

387
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: where we've got the five different manners of death, and

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00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: in this case, of course, that manner of death would

389
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Speaker 1: be classified by the medical examiner down there as a homicide.

390
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: When you do not have a specific cause of death,

391
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: some people will say unknowns as cause of death, and

392
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: that is that thing that brought about the end of

393
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: this person's life. What was the primary causal factor of death.

394
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: Some forensic pathologists will list it as non specific homicidal trauma,

395
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: and that's a very broad term. They're kind of going

396
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: back and reinforcing what the what their supposition is relative

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00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: to manner of death. So they're saying, Okay, it's non

398
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: specific homicidal trauma. And each think about this. When a

399
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: pathologist gets on a stand and they go to testify,

400
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: the defense council has a field day with that. They'll

401
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: make a big dramatic moment out of it before the

402
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: jury and they'll say, so, doctor, you have no way

403
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: to say what brought about the death of this How

404
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: can you be so sure it's a homicide? Well, then

405
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: it becomes a matter of just kind of logically attempting

406
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: to piece this together from a scientific standpoint. Okay, if

407
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: this is not a homicide, how do you explain that

408
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: she has been found or the remnant of her has

409
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: been found in a burn pile, her body has been

410
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: rendered down. Do you realize how long it would take

411
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: for this to happen? And of course you go into

412
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: talking about it would take hours and hours and hours

413
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: and sustained heat of twelve hundred degrees fairnheight, and somebody

414
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: would have had been tended, it would have had to

415
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: have tended to fire. And all the while the jury

416
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: is listening to this and they're thinking, oh wow, okay,

417
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: clouds are kind of parting here, and I'm seeing that

418
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: probably this death is in fact a homicide. But you know,

419
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: you always run a risk with a case like this

420
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: because it's prosecutors trying to get this thing to the

421
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: point where it's beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes the jury

422
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: will be left scratching their head when they're back there

423
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: in that little room. So is non specific homicidal trauma

424
00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the same thing as undetermined? Well, yes, and no. You

425
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: will have friends of pathologists that are out there that

426
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: will say undetermined and simply what that is is that

427
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: they're shrugging their shoulders to say, I don't know, I know,

428
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: it's a homicide, but I don't know what the cause

429
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: of death is. When you have somebody that will write, now,

430
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 1: non specific homicidal trauma, it's almost like you're in philosophy

431
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: class at that point in time. They're going back to

432
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: reinforce their original argument, which is the manner of the

433
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 1: classification of the death, where they're saying, this is, in

434
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: fact a homicide. And let me state it once more

435
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: for those in the back, this is non specific homicidal trauma.

436
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: We know that trauma took place, we know that they're

437
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: brought about the death of this individual, and not only that,

438
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: we know that it was the death at the hands

439
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: of another. And that's essentially how you define homicide. And

440
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: as a little aside here, like when I teach the

441
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: Manners of Death, I warn my classes in advance, I

442
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 1: don't want to hear them use the term murder, because

443
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: murder is a lawyer's word, and you find it in

444
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: the canon of law in various states. You might hear

445
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: first degree homicide or first degree murder. Murder has a

446
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: very kind of theatrical tone to it, but homicide is

447
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: very clinical. It just from a scientific standpoint, you're saying,

448
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: in fact that it is death at the hands of

449
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: another that one person brought about the death of another.

450
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: You're not necessarily judging. You're not being the judge and

451
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: the jury here. You're essentially saying, I believe, based upon

452
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: my experience, that this death came at the hands of

453
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: another individual, and that's it. You're not trying to indict

454
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: anybody or impugning anybody or anything like that. You're just

455
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: merely saying that this death. And listen, there's all manner

456
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: of homicides out there that you can have somebody comes

457
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: into your home and they're threatening you with violence and

458
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: you might have to shoot that individual. That's still a homicide.

459
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: It's still a homicide. As if you have somebody that's

460
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: attacked on a darkened street in the middle of the

461
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: night and they're being to death over the contents of

462
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: their pockets, that's a homicide as well. Somebody that dies,

463
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: for instance, as a result of the death penalty, how

464
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: are you going to classify that, Well, that's a homicide.

465
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: There's no other way to really term it. So we've

466
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: only got five things that we can choose from for

467
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: a classification, and sometimes within those classifications, from a scientific standpoint,

468
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: we don't have much more to hang our hat on scientifically,

469
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: other than the fact that we've got a remain that

470
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: has a cremaine as we would call it, that has

471
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: been rendered down purposefully it would appear, and that there

472
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: was a bunch of blood found in the house that

473
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: would be consistent with someone having done harm to this individual.

474
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: You hear the term reactionary many times. I don't know

475
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: how do we react under certain circumstances when stress is

476
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: placed upon us. You know, many times we're still paying

477
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: the price many years down the road in our lives collectively,

478
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: as a result of decisions that we made reactively right

479
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: and thinking about this case, this almost smacks of a

480
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: reactionary event. Like I said earlier, it's a very disordered,

481
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: kind of disorganized, it seems for Nedick. Police said there

482
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: was a struggle, a great struggle in the home. Ian

483
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: Bounat told police that his ex wife came to his home.

484
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: They got into an argument over another woman, but he

485
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: didn't want to fight, so he went to sleep and

486
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: when he woke up, Katie was gone. So there's one

487
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: inconsistency in his story. But as police searched his property

488
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: and his record, they found he faced a domestic battery

489
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: charge last year for strangulation. Now ultimately that case ended

490
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: up being promped, but he was charged with strangling someone.

491
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: But as police continued to search his home under their warrant,

492
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: they found several let's say, suspicious substances. Yeah, they did.

493
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: What was found, according to the police, were a number

494
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: of vials of steroids that could be injected essentially, and

495
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: these were being held illegally. Steroids have to be prescribed,

496
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: and in this particular case, it's almost as if you

497
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: wonder if somebody that was in possession of these number

498
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: of vials that he had, was he possessing these in

499
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: order for personal use or did he possess them in

500
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: order to distribute. Of course, that's a question that the

501
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: prosecutor would have to answer. But we do know that

502
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: the husband in was bodybuilder. He had competed certainly at

503
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: a national level. Bodybuilding and for motion of growth of

504
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: muscle many times from an artificial standpoint, is attained through

505
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: the use of antibolic steroids. So you kind of have

506
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: to understand, you know, what the purpose is. You have antibolic,

507
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: which actually means growth, and then you have catabolic, which

508
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: means deterioration or reduction. So with antibolic antabolic steroids that

509
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: you would apply from muscle growth, it's actually what it is.

510
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: It's synthetic testosterone, and the people have success with it,

511
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's been used certainly therapeutically over the years,

512
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: for say, for instance, with people that have diminished issues

513
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: where they're trying to attain growth or recover say diminished muscle.

514
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: But many times these are abused and they're tremendous side

515
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: effects come along with this. You can have them in

516
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: two separate ways. First off, with the use of the

517
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: abolic steroids, you can wind up having serious heart complications.

518
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: There's adverse reaction that leads to heightened cholesterol in the system.

519
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: You can also have other systemic issues that a company

520
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: abuse of it. But also I think one of the

521
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: things that people are most familiar with, I think is

522
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: this concept of what people have termed as roid rage.

523
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: When anambolic steroids are introduced into the system, it impacts

524
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: the limbic system in the brain. And the limbic system

525
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: is not some people call it the limbic gland, but

526
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: it's not actually a gland. The system kind of ranges

527
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: throughout various areas in the brain, But what it comes

528
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: down to is that these centers within the brain, the

529
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: limbic system, can actually control our emotion, our ability to

530
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: kind of contain our self relative to being in a

531
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: passive spot in life or maybe being highly aggressive. So

532
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: we know what this means aggressive And there were big

533
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: neon letters of flash across the sky as soon as

534
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: you said that, saying roid rage, roid rage, roid rage?

535
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: What is roid rage and what causes it? How do

536
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: steroids turn you into the incredible hulk? That's probably the

537
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: first image that that really conjures up for all of

538
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: us that you're going to be stimulated to this point

539
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: and you actually see this aggression that will manifest itself

540
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: through steroid abuse, particularly those that are doing it habitually.

541
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: They kind of work at a very high level many

542
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: times as it impacts the brain. When the antabolic steroid

543
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: is applied, not only are you going to have muscle

544
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: growth and you will see results as a result of that,

545
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: but it's also impacting the brain. And when people are

546
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: working out, this steroid slams into the brain, slams into

547
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: it at a chemical level and impacts limbic system in

548
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: the brain. You have this kind of aggressive nature that

549
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: will manifest itself in many, many people. And look, that's

550
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: that's something I would think that if you're working out

551
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: in the gym, many people look at the weights as

552
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: something to attack and they go after it, and they've

553
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: seen substantial growth from a muscle standpoint. Now this is

554
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: being promoted physiologically, you know the reaction with the muscles,

555
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: you're having growth, but also with this this kind of

556
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: animalistic rage that's impacting the limbic system. This is actually

557
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: the primal brain. People call it lizard brain, and even

558
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: reptiles have this limbic system within their brain and it

559
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: goes to aggression that you see. And so we have

560
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: this and it's rooted in our primal brain. A matter

561
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: of fact, they think the limbic system actually developed before

562
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: our frontal brain. Did you know that gives us kind

563
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: of higher function. So it's very primal, it's very base,

564
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And so if that is constantly

565
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: stimulated as a result of the presence of the substance

566
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: in a system, wouldn't it be difficult even with those

567
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: that you love to kind of dial it back if

568
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: you've got this external stimulus is coming into the system.

569
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: Those that you should be kind and gentle and long

570
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: suffering with, perhaps they're not going to have that in

571
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: their life. They're going to be dealing with somebody that

572
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: could potentially be a monster. So when we talk about

573
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: royd rage, we're not talking about not being able to

574
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: control yourself. Correct, We're not talking about that. We're talking

575
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: about this influence of a substance that comes into a

576
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: system where it's not simply you've got impulse control issues

577
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: for instance, okay, which might be a naturally occurring condition

578
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: that an individual has, and that's not what we're talking about.

579
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody that takes a substance that comes

580
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: into their system and it actually changes their nature. Change

581
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: is how they react, you see, like heightened Obviously issues

582
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: with anger that can be set off very very easy.

583
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean, by the most benign type of thing that

584
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: can occur. They've become And here's one that a lot

585
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: of people don't really realize that it stimulates this area

586
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: of the brain, the area kind of controls the jealousy.

587
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: So even the smallest little slight or perception of a

588
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: slight that they might have can be something that just

589
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: suddenly explodes relative to their perception. Like, for instance, if

590
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: two people are involved in a relationship, an individual is

591
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 1: dealing with this antabolic steroid in their system. A partner

592
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: looking over to glance at another person could be in

593
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: their mind perceived as though that individual is having an

594
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: affair with that person. It can be that over the top,

595
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: or if you just casually say hello to somebody, it

596
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: can actually trigger this ugly, ugly monster of jealousy within

597
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: them and that can lead to a very violent reaction.

598
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: So the amount of steroids used, because we do know,

599
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: I mean we've almost everybody has seen or known someone

600
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: through the years that have had to use steroids at

601
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: some point for an injury or an asthma ailment or

602
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: whatever's going on with your body as a treatment, is

603
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: that the dosage is that the general misuse is that

604
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: the application what causes roid rage. When you're talking about

605
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: application of steroids to treatment, there's not only antibolic steroids.

606
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: They're a variety of different types of steroids that are

607
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: out there. You know, you mentioned asthma, Well, that's not

608
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: the same as the treatment that you would apply for

609
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: that is not going to be the same as an

610
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: antibolic steroids they're all purposed for a different reason. All

611
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: of them have their upside and they all have their downside. Unfortunately,

612
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: with antibolic steroids, it's meant to enhance your ability to

613
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: build muscles. Specifically, that's not something that you're going to

614
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: apply in order to treat other conditions. This is specifically

615
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: targeted to create and encourage muscle growth in individuals. Unfortunately,

616
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: the side effect with the antibolic steroid is how it

617
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: impacts the brain and your ability to act and react.

618
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: So what has happened is that you've removed the governor

619
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: okay out of your brain, that thing that kind of

620
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: controls how you're going to behave, what is acceptable, and

621
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: how you're going to behave That the Governor's off on

622
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: that thing. And so that's what makes individuals that are

623
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: suffering from roid rage, as it's been termed, that's what

624
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: makes them so unpredictable and so very dangerous. I think

625
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: to people, even around individuals that they love very much,

626
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: it can make you angry enough that you would dismember

627
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: someone that you've loved and destroy their body. Yes, yeah, absolutely,

628
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: it can get you to the point where you would

629
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: commit a homicide. And that's the shame in it all.

630
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: It can get you to the point where you become

631
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: an individual that people don't want to have anything to

632
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: do with because they know that the slightest little thing

633
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: can be misinterpreted. You can fly off the handle very quickly.

634
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: So it compromises a lot of different areas in your life,

635
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: your ability to certainly communicate with those that you're in

636
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: an indiment or relationship with, whether it's your your spouse,

637
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: or you know, that loving relationship you have with your kids,

638
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: or kind of friendly relationship you have with those that

639
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: you work with. You're unpredictable. You don't know what's going

640
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: to happen with these individuals at any moment time, and

641
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: so it's not too far of a step beyond that

642
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: where you could actually take somebody's life. Ian Bonoc is

643
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: six feet three inches tall. He weighs two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty pounds, and he has competed in the IFBB Master's

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Speaker 1: National Bodybuilding Championship. He is now charged with the murder

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Speaker 1: of his ex wife. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is Bodybags