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Speaker 1: This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Let's Be Clear. My name is Sarah Sidner.

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Speaker 2: You probably don't know me unless you're up very early

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Speaker 2: and watch CNN from seven am to ten am Eastern,

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Speaker 2: where I do a new show with two of my

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Speaker 2: buddies during the week. It was during that show that

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Speaker 2: I revealed to the audience and to some of my

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Speaker 2: distant relatives who did not know yet, that I had

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Speaker 2: stage three breast cancer. I did it while choking back tears.

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Speaker 2: But it has now been just over a year since

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Speaker 2: my diagnosis, and while I was still recovering, I had

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Speaker 2: just returned from my double mistectomy. I ended up reading

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Speaker 2: this new story and this was the headline, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to read it to you now. Actress Shannon Doherty

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Speaker 2: has died after a year battle with breast cancer. She

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Speaker 2: was fifty three years old. I choked down those words,

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Speaker 2: thinking in my head, how is this possible. She was

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Speaker 2: the queen of the nineties. She was a part of

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Speaker 2: our lives. Really all of us watched nine O two

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Speaker 2: one zero, We watched all of the shows that she

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Speaker 2: took part in. She was just sort of around and

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Speaker 2: you sort of feel like you know somebody when they

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Speaker 2: are on your television set. And I'm only a year

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Speaker 2: younger than her. So with all her resources and with

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Speaker 2: all her fame, and with all the people that she

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Speaker 2: comes across, how is she gone? That really struck me.

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Speaker 2: It turns out we both were diagnosed with the same

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Speaker 2: type of cancer, so that sent me down a very

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Speaker 2: depressing rabbit hole. But it really isn't important who I am.

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Speaker 2: It is important that you get the information that you need.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to be real, raw and real. There

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Speaker 2: might be some cringe worthy things said during this podcast

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Speaker 2: because I want you to know what the experience is

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Speaker 2: actually like and some of the things that we never

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Speaker 2: talk about, including sexual health and the problems that come

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Speaker 2: along with cancer treatment. I will be as honest as

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Speaker 2: I can, and embarrassingly so, so I hope that you

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Speaker 2: will enjoy this because we have one of the most wonderful,

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Speaker 2: knowledgeable guest that is with us today who can give

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Speaker 2: you a lot of information. She is Harvard trained, She's

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Speaker 2: an oncologist. She wrote this incredible book called All in

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Speaker 2: Her Head, The Truth and Lies Early medicine taught us

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Speaker 2: about women's bodies and why it matters today. She was

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Speaker 2: also in a special with Oprah. So welcome and thank

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Speaker 2: you for doing this with me. I am not Oprah Winfrey,

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Speaker 2: but I am so happy to have you here to

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Speaker 2: talk through this with us.

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Speaker 1: And I'm honored truly to be here with you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So can we start with your pet Peeve? And

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Speaker 2: I just did it when I announced Shannon Doherty had

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Speaker 2: died of cancer. I said she lost her battle with cancer.

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Speaker 2: Why do you hate it when people say lost her battle? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean the word in and itself in that context

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Speaker 1: just makes my heart race and honestly my blood boil,

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Speaker 1: because there are no winners and losers in cancer, and

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Speaker 1: language is so critical to how we experience illness, the

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Speaker 1: stories that are told ourselves, that we tell ourselves, and

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Speaker 1: when it comes to cancer, nobody wants to lose that battle.

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Speaker 1: And I think about all the patients that will interpret

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Speaker 1: and have interpreted that is somehow they're not fighting hard enough,

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Speaker 1: when in fact they are truly fighting. And so I

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Speaker 1: would wish and hope that the media and the lay

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Speaker 1: public would remove that metaphor from a cancer diagnosis. In

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Speaker 1: cancer treatment, it's also very violent imagery, as in the

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Speaker 1: drugs that we're giving and the treatment that we're doing,

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Speaker 1: which we're trying to do to ease suffering and to

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Speaker 1: have compassionate care, are really these violent weapons, and it

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Speaker 1: perpetuates a narrative that I think is really more harmful

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Speaker 1: than beneficial.

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Speaker 2: That's such a good point, and I do it all

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Speaker 2: the time. I'm like, yeah, I'm battling cancer or I'm

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Speaker 2: fighting cancer. And it does put you in a place

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Speaker 2: where if you don't win, then you didn't try hard enough. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And what a thing to put on a cancer patient.

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Speaker 2: It's like, course, you didn't fight hard enough. I guess

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Speaker 2: that's why somebody died. And it's not fair nor true.

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Speaker 2: It's not true.

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Speaker 1: And it also lends itself to a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 1: guilt that I see day in and day out, where

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Speaker 1: people will say I was so stressed out that's why

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Speaker 1: I got cancer, or I didn't do X, Y and Z,

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Speaker 1: or I'm not an e rate or I'm not visualizing

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Speaker 1: it away. I would love love to be out of

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Speaker 1: a job if we could pray, visualize, and eat our

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Speaker 1: way out of cancer. It's not to say that those

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Speaker 1: things are not important for how we experience disease and

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Speaker 1: a whole host of other things that we can get into,

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Speaker 1: but they're not unilaterally causing or curing cancer. And the

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Speaker 1: guilt that it saddles patients with. I would love to

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Speaker 1: unburden them from that. And what goes along with that

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Speaker 1: is this language of battle and fighting.

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Speaker 2: Why do we, as women, and not all women, but many,

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Speaker 2: many women, because you see them coming in a daily basis,

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Speaker 2: Why do we have this need to please our doctors?

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Speaker 2: Why do we have such a hard time advocating for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's so complicated, but I think so

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Speaker 1: much about the experience of medicine and what happens in

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Speaker 1: the doctor patient exam room reflects history and culture and

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Speaker 1: society and in general, you have a lot of women

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Speaker 1: that have inherited this sense of needing to please and

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Speaker 1: take care of others. And when that is overlaid with

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Speaker 1: the power dynamic of the doctor in the exam room,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to feel like you're bothering them, burdening them,

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Speaker 1: you know, hysterical with them, and it becomes a lot

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Speaker 1: harder to advocate for yourself in that context. And I

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Speaker 1: have been in that situation myself many many times. I

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Speaker 1: think what makes it even harder. And what I've seen

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Speaker 1: is when you have strong, powerful women who are on

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Speaker 1: TV or her lawyers are advocating for other people or

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Speaker 1: who are you know, mothers, whatever it may be, they're

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Speaker 1: taking care of everybody else and advocating for everybody else.

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Speaker 1: And so when they know in their soul I'm not

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Speaker 1: following my intuition or I'm not asking the questions I

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Speaker 1: need to, it feels very devaluing of yourself. And you

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Speaker 1: don't kind of know how to crawl out of that

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Speaker 1: because you think I'm supposed to be this strong person

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Speaker 1: and yet I could not ask this basic question that

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Speaker 1: I've always wanted to know about myself.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about some of the things

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Speaker 2: that I hear all the time, and you sort of

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Speaker 2: alluded to it. Probably once a week I hear someone

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Speaker 2: say to me, you know, sugar feeds cancer, you really

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Speaker 2: shouldn't eat that. Is that true?

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot to unpact there. Sugar is not

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Speaker 1: like you remember going into the cancer and feeding it right.

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Speaker 1: It's not this like one way train with that eminem

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Speaker 1: that you put in your mouth. And that also puts

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Speaker 1: a lot of blame on the patient. That being said,

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Speaker 1: Excessive sugar can lead to excessive weight, it can change

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Speaker 1: your metabolic function, and we know that that is not

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Speaker 1: good overall. As but being what's called a host to cancer.

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Speaker 1: So cancer cells are living in your body, and we

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Speaker 1: want to make them inhospitable. We want to make your

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Speaker 1: body and the environment around it less hospitable to cancer.

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Speaker 1: So I think about you know, if I have a

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Speaker 1: rose seed and I'm trying to grow it in Antarctica,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to grow as well because it's frigid,

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Speaker 1: it's cold, it's snowy. If I put it in Florida

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Speaker 1: with sunshine and great soil, it's going to grow more.

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Speaker 1: So to some degree, the habitat that the cancer can

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Speaker 1: live in matters. So trying to maintain a healthy diet,

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Speaker 1: trying to exercise, is trying to have an overall healthy

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Speaker 1: body is important. But it's not some runaway train. If

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Speaker 1: you have a bite of cake or you have a cookie.

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Speaker 1: We just want to do everything in moderation.

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Speaker 2: That is really interesting that you say that, because I

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Speaker 2: asked a couple of different oncologists. I was in one

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Speaker 2: place and then I came to New York and got

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Speaker 2: my treatment here. Because this is where I was working,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to try to work throughout this. I

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Speaker 2: don't know that was smart or not, but I did,

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Speaker 2: and I asked, is there a cancer diet? Is there

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Speaker 2: something I should be doing or changing and that actually

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Speaker 2: helps to either shrink cancer or to stop cancer? And

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Speaker 2: I was told no twice except when it came to

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Speaker 2: drinking alcohol. Three oncologists said, do not drink alcohol. I'm confused,

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Speaker 2: is there a cancer diet or not? If there's not

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Speaker 2: supposed to drink alcohol, it seems to me that there's

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Speaker 2: got to be something to do with nutrition. It's a great,

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Speaker 2: great question.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think we know, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll hit the alcohol point as well. So we do

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Speaker 1: know that maintaining more of a plant forward diet with

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Speaker 1: less processed foods. And what is processed foods? I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are all these quizzes online about is it process

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Speaker 1: is it not processed? In general, if it's got artificial

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Speaker 1: dies in it, so it's more likely to be processed.

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Speaker 1: If you can't pronounce a laundry list of ingredients there,

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Speaker 1: it's more likely to be processed than nuts.

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Speaker 2: Not. You want to think.

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Speaker 1: About whole foods, whole grains, real foods and limiting especially

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Speaker 1: processed red meats, process deli meats, the process salami, the pepperoni,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and processed red meats, and doing your

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Speaker 1: best to have again a plant four diet that has

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Speaker 1: fruits and vegetables in it, and a colorful diet. That's

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Speaker 1: the first thing that we know is really important, and

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Speaker 1: again trying to avoid the ultra processed foods. The other

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Speaker 1: piece that we know that can be helpful is alcohol.

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Speaker 1: So in this country especially, we use alcohol to celebrate,

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Speaker 1: we use alcohol to numb feelings.

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Speaker 2: There's also from the good to the bad.

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Speaker 1: Alcohol runs the spectrum of when you see it infiltrating

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Speaker 1: as a main character in someone's life.

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Speaker 2: My mother is British, so we want to talk about

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Speaker 2: alcohol being a main character, like the pub is, like

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Speaker 2: where my grandfather lived. Yes, that was the social event.

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Speaker 2: So alcohol is just part of the way we live

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Speaker 2: and celebrate and.

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Speaker 1: Talk exactly exactly, But it's a no for me. It's well,

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Speaker 1: let's think about it. So it's we know that it's

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Speaker 1: a carcinogen. We know that there's an association the more

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Speaker 1: you drink, the higher your risk. However, this is not

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Speaker 1: the same risk as having a genetic mutation that leads to,

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Speaker 1: you know, an eighty five percent increase risk of cancer

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Speaker 1: over your lifetime. But people ask me all the time,

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Speaker 1: what can I do that's within my control. You can't

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Speaker 1: control what your family history is. You can control what

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Speaker 1: you put in your mouth and how you exercise and

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Speaker 1: what you drink. And so we do know that there

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Speaker 1: is an increase association not only with breast cancer, but

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Speaker 1: other types of cancers from alcohol consumption because it is

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Speaker 1: a direct carcinogen. So for my patients that ask me

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Speaker 1: if they can limit it to you know, limited celebrations

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Speaker 1: or think about why are you reaching for that glass?

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Speaker 1: Is there something else we could do in its place?

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Speaker 1: And with respect to the social component of it, I

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Speaker 1: like to invite my patients to think about talking to

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Speaker 1: their family members, talking to their friends instead of saying

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Speaker 1: you had a bad day, have a beer, or we're

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Speaker 1: going to take a toast to you know, with this

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Speaker 1: glass of wine. Is there something else we could do

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Speaker 1: together as a community.

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Speaker 2: That's really poignant because it's such an easy thing. What

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Speaker 2: do people always say when you first meet them, Like

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Speaker 2: with girlfriends, it's like, hey, we should grab a drink, yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: and so I have changed that to, hey, let's go

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Speaker 2: grab coffee even if it's four o'clock, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, just something else that's still sort of social.

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Speaker 2: But I want to grab a cob of coffee with

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Speaker 2: you girl. You know you even grab a cop of

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Speaker 2: coffee any time with me, and.

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Speaker 1: Then we can go with for a walk at the

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Speaker 1: same time and really knock them down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that is one of the things. It's like

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Speaker 2: you don't want to say no, and then you get

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Speaker 2: the pressure to drink. I have never been. This is

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Speaker 2: a miracle because my family on both sides, loves a

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Speaker 2: good glass of whatever, usually hard stuff. But I've never

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Speaker 2: been a drinker because I just don't like the taste.

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Speaker 2: And I finally realized in my thirties that I was

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Speaker 2: just drinking socially just because everybody else was and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to fit in. And then I grew up and said, like,

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Speaker 2: I don't even like this. So I get, for example,

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Speaker 2: I'm like seltzer with some cranberry juice and like a

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Speaker 2: pretty flower or throw something in there, like a twist

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Speaker 2: that makes it seem like I'm drinking, so I don't

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Speaker 2: have to hear the amoryam or yam or why aren't

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Speaker 2: you drinking? What are you doing? Yeah? Perfect? Now I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I have cancer, so I can't really drink that and

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Speaker 2: people shut the hell out. That tends to help when

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Speaker 2: they're like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, but you don't have

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Speaker 2: to use that excuse. You can just make it look

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Speaker 2: like you're drinking and you're just having a Seltzer water

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Speaker 2: with you know, lemon in it. I think that's great.

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Speaker 2: It tends to work for me. Everybody has their way

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Speaker 2: of doing things now too, because you touched on this

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Speaker 2: as you always do, because you're the expert being overweight.

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Speaker 2: Does being overweight or being obese make you more susceptible

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Speaker 2: to cancer? It does, It does.

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Speaker 1: So we know that obesity, like tobacco consumption or alcohol consumption,

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Speaker 1: is one modifiable risk factor for cancer, but we know

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Speaker 1: that it can also be a tremendous battle to fight right,

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Speaker 1: and so it's something that we really want patients to

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Speaker 1: talk openly with their doctors about about what are their options,

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Speaker 1: what are their lifestyle options, what are the medication options

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Speaker 1: that they might be able to have so that they

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Speaker 1: can start to decrease their risk from that access weight

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Speaker 1: and this is my fault.

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Speaker 2: Like that's the first thing that stuff jump into my head.

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Speaker 1: And there is so much shame around that that I

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Speaker 1: think we have to really dismantle and compassionately give patients

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Speaker 1: their options.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of shame, this is a hard one for me

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Speaker 2: to discuss. Uh. And this might be a little cringe worthy, guys,

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Speaker 2: So just you know, if you're listening with your younger kids,

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Speaker 2: or you're listening with a daughter or a son, you

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Speaker 2: may not want to go down this road. But I'm

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Speaker 2: going to talk about sex. Where the hell did my

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Speaker 2: libido go? Love that you asked that?

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Speaker 1: Can we make sex less cringe worthy?

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Speaker 2: It's so be fine, I know, but talking to you're

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Speaker 2: not a stranger, but you all are like, yeah, literally

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Speaker 2: just vanished. Yeah, and I'm married and it's a problem

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Speaker 2: and we can pretend that it is and it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's fine, we'll work it out. It's like

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Speaker 2: you have to talk about it and it's so uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: So what happened? Where does it go when you're in

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Speaker 2: cancer treatment?

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Speaker 1: I think it's so multifactorial. And again I champion you,

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Speaker 1: celebrate you for going there and really authentically talking and

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Speaker 1: vulnerably talking about such an important topic and one that

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Speaker 1: I bang my head against the wall all the time

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Speaker 1: so that we can really honor this, particularly for women.

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Speaker 1: We know as a society we are far more likely

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Speaker 1: to address sexual needs of men than we are about women,

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Speaker 1: and it is a huge bleeping problem. I know we're

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Speaker 1: on a recorded line right now, so I can't insert

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Speaker 1: all the profanity, but I really I really mean all

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Speaker 1: of it, and it's a real that in and of

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Speaker 1: itself is a shame. Historically and to the present, we

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Speaker 1: are two times more likely to ask men about sexual

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Speaker 1: side effects from cancer targeted therapies than we are women.

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Speaker 1: And I see this shameplay out day in and day out.

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Speaker 1: So when it comes to cancer and breast cancer specifically

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Speaker 1: in libido, lots of different things. First of all, the

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Speaker 1: stress and trauma of going through a cancer diagnosis is huge.

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Speaker 2: That's all you can think about all.

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Speaker 1: It's all yes, And our sexual beings and our sexual

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Speaker 1: self is so related to how we feel in our

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Speaker 1: bodies physically, how we approach things mentally, the ways that

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Speaker 1: we access joy, and the things that might inspire us

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Speaker 1: throughout the day, especially if we're thinking about a cancer

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Speaker 1: diagnosis or cancer treatment, or even just scheduling treatment can

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Speaker 1: be exhausting and overwhelming for patients. And then there's the

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Speaker 1: biological and physical issues that can go on from cancer treatment,

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Speaker 1: and particularly with breast cancer treatment, it can affect hormone levels,

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Speaker 1: which can.

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Speaker 2: We about to talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. You want me to just bring it,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and we can just go there. But you know,

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Speaker 1: particularly with intercourse women, it can feel like I have

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Speaker 1: heard so many patients say.

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Speaker 2: It's painful, painful.

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Speaker 1: They tell me it feels like having knives, yes, right,

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Speaker 1: like shards of glass inside your vagina. And we should

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Speaker 1: be able to use that language and talk about it

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Speaker 1: and de shame it and figure out what we're going

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Speaker 1: to do about it. So for breast cancer patients, there

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Speaker 1: are lots of things that we can do, including treatments

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Speaker 1: that we give directly locally that can improve the hormonal

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Speaker 1: function of that area. And we have to not only

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Speaker 1: bring more research into this, but more clinical expertise.

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Speaker 2: I think that, Okay, you just said something I hadn't heard,

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Speaker 2: so I need to yeah, because you know, I know

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Speaker 2: down rabbit holes, and you know, I'm one of those

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Speaker 2: googling people, which I was warned not to, and you

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Speaker 2: can't stop me because it literally is part of my job.

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Speaker 2: So I can't help it. But you just said there

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Speaker 2: are things that you can use, Yes, estrogen even if

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Speaker 2: you have an estrogen.

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Speaker 1: Recept Yes, yes, so if you have an estrogen receptor

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Speaker 1: positive breast cancer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we're blowing my mind right out.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so even if you have a cancer that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to block estrogen with throughout your whole body, right,

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Speaker 1: you can use intravaginal forms of estrogen that are not

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Speaker 1: systemically absorbed in any appreciable way that we know from

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Speaker 1: research is not going to increase your risk of breast cancer,

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Speaker 1: but can locally change the tissue and make that what

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Speaker 1: it more used to be.

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Speaker 2: Like, right, how come I'm just hearing this right now?

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Speaker 2: I'm a year. Get in there, girl, I'm a year

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Speaker 2: in treatment. Yeah, how come I'm just hearing this? You

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Speaker 2: know why? Because I don't bring it up to my

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Speaker 2: doctor either. I don't. Now, you can just play the recording.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it. I especially don't

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Speaker 2: want to talk I am a grown ass woman and

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about this with a male

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Speaker 2: on cologist. I don't I don't even want to talk

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Speaker 2: about it with the female colleges to be perfectly like honest,

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Speaker 2: like it gives me all kinds of nervous energy, Like

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Speaker 2: even right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I wish I could come give you a hug,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going to crawl over the microphone. But

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Speaker 1: know that every woman that I speak to in some

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Speaker 1: measure has struggled with this, particularly going through a cancer diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: whether it's something that they want to be doing more

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Speaker 1: of or they're afraid of, or it's painful, and it's complex.

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Speaker 1: And part of the issue is it shouldn't just be

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Speaker 1: for the oncologists. We should have sex therapists that work

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Speaker 1: at hospitals. We should have gynecologists that are particularly aware

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Speaker 1: of these issues how they relate to cancer patients. Pelvic

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Speaker 1: floor physical therapy can be hugely helpful for patients, and

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of hospitals don't have this integrated

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Speaker 1: into their care teams, and we really need to push

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Speaker 1: for that and make that more a part of our

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Speaker 1: society and cultural narrative, so that just like we ask

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Speaker 1: about chess pain or exercise tolerance, we ask patients about

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Speaker 1: their sexual function and what they want for themselves.

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Speaker 2: It's really trying to help the whole body. And I

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Speaker 2: know you know where I am right now. That is

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Speaker 2: the mentality is like, we are not just treating you

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Speaker 2: as a cancer patient. We are treating you as a

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Speaker 2: human being. So we want to look at the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: And to be fair a nerve, a female nurse asked me, like,

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Speaker 2: are you dryness? And I in my in my head,

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Speaker 2: I was like, it feels like knives when I'm having sex.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, I worried about my marriage, even though my

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Speaker 2: husband has been unbelievable, like unbelievably strong and unbelievably supportive.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, look at this hurts. We're not doing

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Speaker 2: we will just figure something out. And I feel so guilty,

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Speaker 2: Like I feel so terrible because I know it's not sustainable.

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Speaker 2: And so to hear from you that there's something that

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Speaker 2: I can do about it that's different than okay, the

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Speaker 2: cream and to try this and the it's a revelation

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Speaker 2: to me and I think it will be to a

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Speaker 2: lot of women. Yes, we should mention that hormone receptor

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Speaker 2: HR two HR hormone receptor positive positive and then her

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Speaker 2: too negative is the most common type of cancer, breast cancers.

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Speaker 2: When you hear that, I mean that is you have

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Speaker 2: to strip yourself of hormones because it feeds off basically

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Speaker 2: the hormones. Is that kind of what the cancer is

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Speaker 2: right to.

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Speaker 1: Some degree, and especially now if you look at social media,

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Speaker 1: everyone's talking about menopause and giving everyone hormone yes and

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Speaker 1: giving everyone hormone replacement therapy. But we don't have that

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Speaker 1: knowledge about what we can really do for patients who

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Speaker 1: are going through or have survived breast cancer. That is

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Speaker 1: a huge unmet need in terms of breast cancer research.

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Speaker 1: Thinking about for patients who've had breast cancer, can we

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00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 1: give them at some point any form of systemic hormonal

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00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: therapy that can combat some of the issues that women

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Speaker 1: are facing with menopause. We need more research into that

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00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: and more clinical expertise into that, and at the very

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Speaker 1: least talking to women about local estrogen that they can

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Speaker 1: that they can.

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Speaker 2: I just had no idea, But I'm about to go

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Speaker 2: write the doctor right now and send a message and

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00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 2: say we need to have a quick meeting so that

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Speaker 2: I can get this prescribed.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we've talked a lot about guilt here

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Speaker 1: and I want to if I had a hazardous waste

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Speaker 1: bucket here, I would like to reach into you and

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Speaker 1: pull out that guilt that you have over something that

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Speaker 1: you have.

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Speaker 2: You didn't decide for this, you didn't want this. But

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Speaker 2: I hate to see my husband suffering because of it,

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Speaker 2: my family, you know what I mean. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: But but that's also human and you can work through this.

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Speaker 1: There are people that can help you through this, and

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Speaker 1: you deserve that, and you know you didn't. You didn't

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Speaker 1: deserve this, and you don't deserve to suffer. And people

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Speaker 1: around you clearly love you and want to see you

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Speaker 1: happy and thriving. And so if we can have a

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Speaker 1: discussion at some point, you know, with your care team

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Speaker 1: about what is it that you're missing and what is

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Speaker 1: it that you would want back or to access again.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I want my body back. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: I want my bland bag. I don't want to talk

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Speaker 2: to you about yeah, sorry now I'm totally crying. Thank you, doctor, doctor.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about menopause and what

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Speaker 2: happens and like secrets, Why the hell we have been

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Speaker 2: keeping these secrets for so long? I always say to

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Speaker 2: my mom, like why didn't you tell me, And there's

435
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: a shame in it. Women have been told that they're

436
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 2: not worth anything once they're past child bearing years, that

437
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: their life is over, or that they are not worth

438
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 2: as much in society. And we are all worth just

439
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 2: as much as we're In fact, I am ten times

440
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: smarter and a better member of society than I was,

441
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, thirty years ago got them old anyway. But

442
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 2: the brain fog, like I did not know anything about

443
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: menopause except for hot flashes. That's what everyone talks about.

444
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: But they don't tell you about the brain fog, about

445
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: everything being dry from your head to your toes and

446
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: everything in between. About the emotional freakin' roller coaster. I

447
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 2: feel like I'm a thirteen year old, like ups and downs,

448
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: anxiety and depression and happy and sad and like it's insane,

449
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: and I thought I was going crazy. I literally thought

450
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: for a second I was going crazy. And it's because

451
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: my grandfather once said, you know, when you go through

452
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: that change at a certain age, because again he's British

453
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: and may he rest his soul, and he would he

454
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: would say, you know, because your grandmother went through this

455
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: and she went crazy, And so I internalized that and

456
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: thought for a second, I'm like, am I going crazy

457
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: because I was induced into menopause because of the cancer treatment?

458
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: So am I going crazy?

459
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: No?

460
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: Or is all that symptoms of menopause?

461
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: No, You're not going crazy? And it just really drives

462
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: home for me. You know, the reason why I wrote

463
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: the book with so many stories from the past and

464
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: the present instead of some laundry list of like, here

465
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: are ten things that will help you feel better about

466
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: yourself as a woman, is because these stories that we've

467
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: been told as a society, but also to have people

468
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: think about what are the stories you've been told yourself

469
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,239
Speaker 1: from your family about yourself and what will happen to you?

470
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: And those become so important, as you just talked about

471
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: with the story about your grandfather, and when you think

472
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: about it as a women are damned if they do

473
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: and damned if they don't. When you're when you're menstruating,

474
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: you're hormonal, so you're crazy from that, right, and because

475
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: you have this or that or she must be bleet

476
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: whatever it is, right, And and then and then you

477
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: stop menstruating, and suddenly you're even more crazy.

478
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 2: Right.

479
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: And there's been this huge movement now to really uncover Okay,

480
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: what is menopause?

481
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: How can we treat it?

482
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: And historically, when hormonal replacement therapy first came out, all

483
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: these women were on it. Then there was a study

484
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: that was erroneously overinterpreted as saying everyone's going to get

485
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: breast cancer from hormone replacement.

486
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: There they thought that, yes, that's how I was trained.

487
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, yeah, I was like, you do not

488
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: do hormone replacement therapy. It is dangerous, you will get

489
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: you can't get breast cancer.

490
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: And that's simply you know, those those facts were or

491
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: those numbers were wildly overstated, right, And then now you

492
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: have this huge movement from all sorts of walks of life,

493
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: including from celebrities, really to push what is menopause? How

494
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: do we treat it better? But where we really haven't

495
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: caught up is what do we do for cancer patients?

496
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: And what about the astrom receptors in the brain, what

497
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: about other places in the body. And so there's a

498
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: lot of work being done on that, but not enough,

499
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: not enough, And you are most certainly not going crazy.

500
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: What is crazy is that our medical system has not

501
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: properly addressed this for women and in turn shamed women too,

502
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: thinking that they're absolutely nuts when they're not.

503
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: That makes me feel one hundred percent better. I do

504
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: want to delve into this discomfort or shame or sort

505
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: of how we act in doctors' offices, and maybe you

506
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: can give me some advice and how we can better

507
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: advocate for ourself. And I'm going to do that by

508
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: reading a little bit of your book. I went through

509
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: this book like hot butter or hot knife through butter

510
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: like it was fast. It was a great read because

511
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: you write it almost like a novel, where you've got

512
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: these stories of what women have gone through from the

513
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 2: very onset of women's health and how women were treated

514
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: basically as non human to now. So here's partly how

515
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: you introduce the book. You say, in those first moments

516
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: after I tell a patient she has cancer, no matter

517
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: who she is, her responses almost invariably follow the same trajectory.

518
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: Am I going to die? Why did this happen to me?

519
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry for sweating. Yeah, that makes the back

520
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: of the hairs in the back of my neck stand up,

521
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: because I had a moment where I was going to

522
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: the surgeon. It was right before my mistectomy. They have

523
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: to take a look at your anatomy and sort of

524
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 2: figure out what they're going to do when you can

525
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: ask questions. And after he was done examining me, he says, Okay,

526
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to go out, and the nurse says, okay,

527
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: now you're going to go to get your pictures. No

528
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: one had told me anything about pictures. So I walked

529
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: in and this really kind woman said, okay, just remove

530
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 2: your clothing and we're gonna take some pictures. And so

531
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: I removed my pants and my shirt and left my

532
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: undergarments on because I'm not going to stand there naked,

533
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, no, you it's everything. I literally

534
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: felt a wave of shame, like I was five years

535
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 2: old or thirteen even worse years old, standing naked in

536
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: front of a entire room full of people reading a speech,

537
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: and that there was nothing I could do. I mean,

538
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: my response as a grown woman was I turned into

539
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: a little kid. And the pictures were taken and she's like, okay,

540
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: turn this way, turn that way, and I heard myself saying,

541
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm sorry. So I'm so fat here

542
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 2: like oh, I've been trying to work out, and I

543
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: am explaining to her why I feel so bad about

544
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: my own body, and I'm about to have a double

545
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: mistackt to mey like in a month. That was one

546
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: of those moments that I wish I would have said, Hey,

547
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about these pictures. Can you tell

548
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: me a little bit more about why you're doing them?

549
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: Because intellectually, I know they have to take them so

550
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: because they need to figure out where they're going to

551
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: be doing and what they're going to be doing and

552
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: what your body looks like before. But at the moment,

553
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: I didn't say anything, and I still am pissed with

554
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: myself about it. So how do we advocate for ourselves?

555
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: Even in those very simple moments where I could have

556
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: said I don't want to take pictures today, I didn't

557
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: say anything.

558
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: I can imagine. I can't imagine, and I'm trying to

559
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: imagine what a betrayal it feels, too, because you feel

560
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: almost not only just shame about your body, but betrayed

561
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: by this body that you've had a relationship with your

562
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: whole life. And there you have to stand there, literally

563
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: naked in front of a stre you know, bearing everything

564
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: your soul and literally literally literally And I wish that

565
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: had been a far more compassionate process for you.

566
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: And look, it wasn't that there wasn't compassion. She was like,

567
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: oh my god, girl, you you look great. It was

568
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: it was this is how we do things. And I

569
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: think sometimes there's only so much time that the doctor's

570
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: spending you, it's only so much time that nurses can

571
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: spend with you, and so it's it felt a little

572
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: bit like I was on a treadmill and it was like, Okay,

573
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: this is what we do. Go next. And I should

574
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: have known because guess what I was doing before that,

575
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: looking at pictures of other women who had gone through

576
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: and mistectomy to see what it looks like. Because I

577
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: am one curious chick. I want to know everything. I

578
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: even watched a surgery before, like I wanted online. I

579
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: wanted to see what was going to happen. It didn't

580
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: dawn on me how I was going to feel. And

581
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: I walked in there and it was like, you get

582
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: to stand there start naked, in front of a lady

583
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: you've never ever met. I wouldn't stand in front of

584
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: my husband the same way naked. Totally. I'm shocked by this, actually,

585
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: and here's here's why. Because I am probably and I

586
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: still have a one major surgery to go through, which

587
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: is reconstruction. I'm probably going to do what's called a

588
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: deep flat and if you don't know what that is,

589
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: it's where instead of getting breast in plants, where you

590
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: getting a foreign body put in there, they use your

591
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: own tissue, right and so right, they cut you from

592
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: very low. So I wanted to see if I had

593
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: enough tissue, if I had enough fat. I was like, oh, honey,

594
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: I got plenty. You just needed to ask because I

595
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: got plenty of fat for you guys to use. But

596
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: they recreate your breast with your own anatomy, and over

597
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: time it's a very big surgery. But over time, a

598
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: lot of women report that it is better for them.

599
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: Over time, it's easier for them to get the implants

600
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: in the beginning if they just want to do that,

601
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: it's a faster recovery, but over time they tend to

602
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: like to be able to use their own tissue. So

603
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: that's partly why I just didn't know it was going

604
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: to be that day, and that that's how Yeah, it worked.

605
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: And think about it, I mean, you were dealing with

606
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: a new diagnosis, so much trauma, trying to make some

607
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: decisions about how you want your new body to look

608
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: like in the setting of you know, this was not

609
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: elective surgery. This is surgery that you're going to have

610
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: to have with some options for reconstruction, and in that

611
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: moment asking you to advocate for yourself, that's it's almost impossible.

612
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: I've been in that situation myself, and I have my

613
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: own stories of thinking, how could I possibly not have

614
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: said what I would say for a loved one, what

615
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: I would say.

616
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: For a friend? Why am I? You know?

617
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: And in the at the end of my book, before

618
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: I wrote the conclusion, I went through something medical myself

619
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: where here I am. I'm literally writing about empowering yourself.

620
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: You know you're a freaking in colleges. Yes you are

621
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: the doctor of doctors and.

622
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: That women need to be empowered and this is how

623
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: you can do it and don't feel shame about your body.

624
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: Look how history screwed us over. You can live differently today.

625
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: And when it came to my own self, even with

626
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: like speed dial of great doctors, I didn't want to

627
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: bother anybody. I minimized my own pain, I apologized for it,

628
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: and I waited. I ended up in the hospital for

629
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: a week when I didn't need to be there thinking

630
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: everything was okay because people said it was, you know,

631
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: just take some valume literally later.

632
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: That's the thing we usually kind of I.

633
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: Did from the very beginning, and yet I allowed this

634
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: tsunami of other opinions to tell me I was okay

635
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: when I was not. And I would love to say

636
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: that I have a perfect answer for what to do

637
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: in those moments. But I think, if possible, having somebody

638
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: else with you is really important, someone that you can trust,

639
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: someone who will really you can say ahead of time,

640
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: I know you know me in this way, but I

641
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: am scared of who I will become in a doctor's setting,

642
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: and I need someone not just to take notes from me.

643
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: But this is a question I really want to make

644
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: sure is answered for me. I want to understand rationale

645
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: for this. I want to I'm nervous about this. Can

646
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: you help me make sure that this is tackled in

647
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: this appointment and even at the start of the appointment,

648
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: saying to the physician, I know we don't have maybe

649
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: that much time today, this is important to me, and

650
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: making sure that we set the agenda at the beginning,

651
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: or at least if it's not gotten to at the

652
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: very end to make sure that you feel heard. That's

653
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: really good, and find another doctor if you don't, because

654
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: if you feel dismissed, if you feel invalidated, if you

655
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: feel shamed, if you feel guilted, it's not going to

656
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: get any better.

657
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: That's really great advice. You said you didn't think you

658
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: had the answers, but I think that you gave us

659
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 2: a couple of really good answers. And I have brought

660
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: some things up since then to my oncologists, to the surgeon,

661
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: and they've been nothing but receptive. Good.

662
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: So I stand corrected. It can get better, then it can.

663
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: It can, it can, it can.

664
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: But sometimes the onus is upon us when we are

665
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: at our most vulnerable.

666
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Yes, it's hard, it's almost impossible. I mean, I think

667
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: back to my own what could I have done differently?

668
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: And I'm so I'm still so mad at myself right

669
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: and it's really hard.

670
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: I think that part is the part that I still

671
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: right now. When I was telling you the story, I

672
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: was embarrassed that I didn't advocate for myself, because here

673
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: I am telling women, you've got to advocate for yourself.

674
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: I was embarrassed and I felt powerless, and those two

675
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: things playing against each other. It makes me want to

676
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: jump out of a window like it's that, like I

677
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: just want to fight or flight, like I want to

678
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: just get out of there. I don't want to feel

679
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: these feelings, and I think it lingers.

680
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: It does linger, and sometimes there's real trauma from that.

681
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: I had this thing during COVID where I thought I

682
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: had foot drop. Basically my foot was not as strong,

683
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: and I kept seeing different people and they'd say, Oh,

684
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: but you're so strong, you can run ten miles and

685
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, something's not right.

686
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: Something's not right.

687
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: And years later it turned out I had a compress

688
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: nerve that's probably irreparable, even though I had surgery compressed

689
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: And every day that I take a step, I feel

690
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: that my left side is weaker than the other. And

691
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: I can choose to have this narrative which I go

692
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole many times, being mad at myself.

693
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: Why didn't I say I showed videos, I said I

694
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: thought I had foot drop. Why didn't I push for

695
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: that harder? Why didn't I follow my own intuition? And

696
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: I have to fight the own narrative of being mad

697
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: at myself all the time. It's hard, exhausting, exhausting.

698
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: It really is exhausting. I want to ask you how

699
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: we can talk about cancer because we started this with

700
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 2: talking about not using the battle ready words, fighting, battling, slaying, whatever,

701
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: because it puts the onus on the patient that if

702
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: they don't fight hard enough and they lose the battle,

703
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: so to speak, that is their fault. Yeah. So when

704
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: someone brings up, for example, that you know, look, I've

705
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: been diagnosed with cancer, what have you heard from your

706
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: patients that responses that are helpful or comforting and responses

707
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: that aren't so helpful. And I will art with myself.

708
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to say because people just want

709
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: they want to help you, and they want it to

710
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: be better, and they want to make you feel better immediately.

711
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter who you tell. It could be a

712
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: stranger or your closest best friend, or your mother or

713
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: your aunt, or your coworkers. But what happened to me

714
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: constantly is that if I said so, I just need

715
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: to let you know I'm actually have been diagnosed with

716
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: stage three breast cancer, and probably fifty percent of the

717
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: time I would get You're gonna be fine, You are

718
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 2: going to be fine, You're gonna fight this and you're

719
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: gonna win and you're gonna be fine, and we're all

720
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: gonna be fine. It's fine. And I would hear that,

721
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: and I'm like, how do you know, because I just learned.

722
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: This happened to me, Like I just learned about this,

723
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: and I know what the statistics are, and I certainly

724
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: know what they are now for black women, which is

725
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: about forty percent more likely to die than my white counterparts.

726
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: So am I going to be fine? And there was

727
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: such an insistence that I felt like I couldn't say

728
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: anything else about it. What do you hear from your patients?

729
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: So I think taking a step back, that your experience,

730
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: a patient's experience, no matter the biology, is theirs and

731
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: theirs alone, and no one can know what it is

732
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: like to be in your shoes. I think the most

733
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: important thing is meeting people where they're at, because everybody

734
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: wants something and needs something different that's entirely related to

735
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: who they are as a person and what they want

736
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: for themselves. Maybe their daughter's getting married, maybe they're going

737
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: for a new job, Maybe they have other things going

738
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: on in their life that this is going to impact,

739
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: and they want to make sure that that's tended.

740
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: To as well.

741
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: I think maybe one of the most basic questions is

742
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: I'm here for you.

743
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 2: What do you need? What do you need?

744
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: And if you don't even know I'm going to show

745
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: up in these ways. And if I'm going to leave

746
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: you this, if you don't want it, throw it out,

747
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: or I'm gonna help take your kids to school, whatever

748
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: it may be. But saying how can I best show

749
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: up for you? I will be there on whatever terms

750
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: you want me there because none of us have a

751
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: crystal ball, none of us knows what tomorrow brings. But

752
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: I will be by your side in whatever dark tunnel

753
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: you're in, and whenever the sun is shining again, I'll

754
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: be there to celebrate with you. And I will be

755
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: there with the lows, whatever they are, because.

756
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: We just don't know.

757
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: But I think we all don't want that sense of

758
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: unwanted aloneness. And that's what cancer really brings up, is

759
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: this fear that you have as a patient. And even

760
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: some people don't you know, won't even touch somebody with

761
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: cancer because they somehow feel like it's contagious. It is

762
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: not contagious. For goodness sake, Maybe you just need a hug,

763
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: right because a lot of times people rush to fix things,

764
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: and that is for the doctor. Yeah, that's for the doctor.

765
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: That's for the healthcare team to really figure out. One

766
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: of some of the harmful things that I hear happen

767
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: all the time is, oh, my sister went through it,

768
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: and you know she decided to do this, and why

769
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: aren't you getting this surgery? And you have no clue

770
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: when you're talking to someone what actually happened to them.

771
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: And then patients feel this pressure to know this stage,

772
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: to know the grade, to know as if they're like

773
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: reading off a pathology report and is if the person

774
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: that you're talking to trained for fifteen years in that

775
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: cancer and it's going to know exactly what to do

776
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: for your cancer?

777
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: They don't.

778
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: I hate when they're like, oh, what stage is it?

779
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: Okay? Does that help?

780
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: Are you going to now operate on my patient? Stop

781
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: asking that? Or I saw this product and you really

782
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: need to use this right, or like if you just

783
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: sprinkle tumeric in your shampoo, everything's going to be okay.

784
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: Right, okay? Or drink it because or drink it, sprinkle it,

785
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: rub it.

786
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, but whatever it is, everyone's got some

787
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: solution and it comes from a good place.

788
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 2: But I think you can be really damaging. Yeah, that

789
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: is really good, good advice. And I like that you

790
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: sort of talk about some of the things that can

791
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: be damaging, because they sometimes those things get into your head. Yeah,

792
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: and you're like, maybe I should try that, or maybe

793
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: I maybe I should, but I you The one thing

794
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: I did know is that whatever medical advances have been

795
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: made in medicine here in this city of New York,

796
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: where you have one of the most renowned, actually more

797
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: than one of the most renowned cancer specialists in the world,

798
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 2: that I was going to do that. I was like,

799
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: cut it out, burn it out, poison it out, do

800
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 2: what you gotta do, but get it out of there.

801
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: And so I did all those things, sixteen rounds of

802
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: chemo over five months, five weeks of daily radiation which

803
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: was exhausting, and a double mistectomy, and then I started thinking,

804
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: because that's when my mental state started to go down,

805
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: was actually after I was in the midst of the crisis.

806
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: And I always say this in my family knows I'm

807
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: better in a crisis. But it's the longevity of all

808
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: this that with the most common breast cancer, if you're

809
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: not already in menopause, you have to take pills for

810
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: the next seven to ten years to try to kill

811
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: your hormones, which is also feels like sometimes killing you right,

812
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: because you're you're different and you're going through all this.

813
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: But then I had this realization and it really freaked

814
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: me out. And we'll end with this. I looked at

815
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: my ancologist after I'd gone through a year of treatment

816
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: double mist deckt tomy and started doing physical therapy, and

817
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: I walked in one day and I said, Doc, Am

818
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: I cancer free. He's like, you're cancer free? How do

819
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: you know? How do you know? And he looked at me,

820
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: and he could tell that I was like searingly, like

821
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: looking with daggers in his face. I'm like, does my

822
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: blood tell you something? Does my He's like, do you

823
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: have any symptoms that indicate otherwise? And I said no,

824
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: But how do you know? How do you know if

825
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 2: you're cancer free? When you have this cancer that can

826
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: be very sneaky, as I have heard a thousand times

827
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: it can come back, and I have heard from patients

828
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: where it did come back. So how do we know?

829
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I would probably offer a different answer, and

830
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: one that's more unsettling but really speaks to the existential

831
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: nature of what it means to be alive.

832
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: We never know.

833
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: Do we know what's going to happen when we walk

834
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: out of that door. No, But we can choose to

835
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: do everything in our power to give us the best

836
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: possible outcome. And that is what your doctor is offering you,

837
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: the best of modern medicine to dramatically decrease the risk

838
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: that this cancer will ever come back. We can throw

839
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: statistics at people, we can give them the best of medicine,

840
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, we don't know.

841
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: And I think that that is what makes cancer such

842
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: a challenging diagnosis, is that for all of us, it

843
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: brings up the reality of what it means to be alive,

844
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: and it really throws into high relief that every day

845
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: is a gift. We can hate aging, but on the

846
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: other hand, those wrinkles are a gift, Those gray hairs

847
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: are a gift to the alternative, right, And we know what,

848
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: what's the one statistic we all know? We have one

849
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: hundred percent death rate, all of us, right, And so

850
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: I am grateful that you are getting such spectacular medical care,

851
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: and to the best of our knowledge, you are indeed

852
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: cancer free. But I don't know about myself, about any

853
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: of us sitting here today, and so we have to

854
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: make choices about who we want to surround ourselves with

855
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: the type of medical care. We want what we do

856
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 1: each and every day for ourselves, and try to approach

857
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: that with grace and humanity for ourselves and everyone else

858
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: around us.

859
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: Doctor Elizabeth Coleman, let's be clear, you are amazing. Thank you,

860
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: thank you for having me