1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Dear let you know USA listener. Before we start. 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 2: You should know that if you want to listen to 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 2: this episode ad free, just join fut plus and you 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 2: can join for as little as seven dollars a month. 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: Joining also gets you behind the scenes access and yes, 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: some cheese may so click the link in the episode 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: description and after you do that, then click play. 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: Let's go to the show. 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 2: In nineteen nineteen, seven years after the Titanic sank into 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: the Atlantic Ocean, a devastating hurricane hit the coast of 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: South Florida. In Key West at the very end of 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: the peninsula, A ship coming from Spain carrying immigrants sank 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: during that storm, but unlike the Titanic, very little was 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: reported about this tragedy for nearly a century, although there 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 2: was a book written about it, and twenty years ago 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: Cuban American Politzer Prize winning author Meet del Hito found 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: that book during a visit to Key West. 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 3: And for about thirty seconds, I thought, oh my god, 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 3: I should write about this, possibly as a nonfiction book, 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 3: because this is the poor Man's Titanic and no one 21 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 3: has heard of this ship. 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: The poor Man's Titanic. Meet that renowned journalist who used 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: to write for The New York Times. Didn't want to 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: write a book that would simply translate what others had 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: put together in Spanish about that shipwreck. 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 3: I just didn't have the kind of time that nonfiction requires, 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: the amount of reporting. You have to be so careful, 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: everything has to be absolutely true. And then I thought, 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 3: it'll have to be a novel. 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: And when she read that book, she also had a 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: sort of vision. 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: I saw a woman running through a ship, through the 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: hallways of a ship, with long, red, curly hair, no shoes, 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: and a lilac dress, and she was desperately looking for 35 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: her daughter. Maybe this sort of thing that happens to 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 3: fiction writers all the time but doesn't normally happen to 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: nonfiction writers. This vision that I had told me that 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: perhaps he needed to be a novel, that he needed 39 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 3: to be anchored in reality with a shipwreck, but also 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: to have the freedom to imagine who could have been 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 3: on that ship. 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 4: So that's how it came about. 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: From Fuduro Media. It's Latino USA. 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: I'm Maria no Josa Today, a Cuban American immigration reporter 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 2: turned to fiction to tell a deeper truth. I sit 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: down with Pulitzer prize winning journalist Mirtao Jito to talk 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: about her new novel Deeper than the Ocean. For decades 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: that reported on immigration, now she's turning all of that knowledge, 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 2: including her own personal journey from Cuba, into a novel 50 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: about memory, migration, and the poor Man's Titanic. 51 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: Benita a Latino. 52 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: Usama pluscated huge pleasure to be here, Maria. 53 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: Thank you in thinking about this interview, Mia. 54 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: Of course, the book is about islands, the Canary Islands. 55 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: It's about Cuba, it's about moving through oceans. It's about 56 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: immigrants and migrants, travelers, it's about women, and so as 57 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: I was thinking, I was like, proposuida, right, all of 58 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: this has to do with how your life starts, because 59 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: you're a little girl on the island of Cuba. So 60 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: talk to me a little bit about your beginnings in Cuba, 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: in Havana and how you think that that led you 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: to this point of being a journalist slash now novelist. 63 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: I was born and grew up in Cuba. 64 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: I left Cuba when I was sixteen, but I grew 65 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: up knowing that I would at some point leave Cuba 66 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: because my parents, especially my dad, always wanted to do that, 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: and it wasn't possible for US until nineteen eighty during 68 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 3: the Marial boat Lift, which was the time when the 69 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: Cuban government allowed and the US government received more than 70 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans who left in 71 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: a variety of boats. 72 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 4: Refugees from Castro's Cuba have come to America. Boats arrived 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 4: steadily in Key West. The number of Cuban refugees brought 74 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 4: over on the Mariel boat lift will total over one 75 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 4: hundred thousand. 76 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 3: I left May tenth and arrived in Key West on 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 3: May eleventh. When we left, it was also a very 78 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: dark night, and it was also stormy and the boat 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: I was supposed to bring because it wasn't a raft, 80 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: Thank god, it was a boat. The story of the 81 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: Mariel boat lived is the central story of my life. 82 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: There was a before and an after. I was never 83 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 3: the same after that. The person I was in Cuba 84 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: remained in Cuba. Once I became a journalist in nineteen 85 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: eighty seven, I was naturally drawn to immigration stories, and 86 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: I ended up covering that for the New York Times. 87 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 3: So it's always been a part of my life professionally, 88 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: and of course personally as an immigrant myself. 89 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, what about writing fiction, what has it allowed 90 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: you to essentially reveal about yourself? 91 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: Oh, that you aren't. 92 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: Able to do when you're doing the fact based, hardcore 93 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: journalism that you do on a daily. 94 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: I think I revealed a lot of that in my 95 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: first book is a reported memoir, but a memoir of 96 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: the Cuban boatlift, and about the conditions in Cuba, in 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 3: South Florida, and in Washington that led to the boat lift. 98 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 3: If my first book, the memoir, is the book that 99 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: I owed my father, this is probably the book that 100 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: I owed to my mother, because the stories that I 101 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: reveal here, more than anything else, are the stories that 102 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: I grew up with that she told me about about 103 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 3: herself and about her mother, and I would take notes. 104 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: Sometimes I recorded her on my phone without her knowledge, 105 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: because I wanted to make sure that not to lose 106 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: the flow of the conversation. See this is an example 107 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: of something you cannot do in journalism, but you can 108 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: when you're recording your mother and Maria little by little, 109 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: almost in a magical way. I have no other word 110 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: to describe what happens in fiction. Those stories found their 111 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: way into my book, so that the character of Catalina 112 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 3: Quintana was really imbued by the stories of my mother, 113 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 3: not just a name, but by the anecdotes. 114 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: I'm wondering what you kind of came up with in 115 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: terms of understanding the hidden labor of women in immigration 116 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: stories and the hidden labor of the women who report 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: about immigration like you and me. There's so many moments 118 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: when the character of the journalist she's witnessing horrible things, 119 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: she's not talking about it. She's even not talking about 120 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: it with her therapist. 121 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: I'm like, right, right, right, Well, it's not so much 122 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: that I uncover it is that I that I ended 123 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: up writing about it without really having a purpose in mind. 124 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: I just wanted to tell the story, a good story 125 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: that readers will find fascinating. But once I finished the 126 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: book and I read it over, I thought, oh my god, 127 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: I am somehow honoring the work of women that, particularly 128 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: in the first half of the twentieth century, led such 129 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: difficult lives in Spain, in Cula and in many of 130 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: our countries in Latin America, but also in the United States, 131 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: and with reporting. What can I tell you that you 132 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 3: don't already know? It's a difficult life. It's a life 133 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: of sacrifices, particularly if you have children like you and 134 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 3: I do. But it is also a life that brings 135 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 3: you a lot of joy because being able to tell 136 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: the stories of others is an enormous pleasure. And I 137 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 3: think my character, the journalist, her name is Mada Dennis, 138 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: is aware of that. She has her own issues. Among them, 139 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: she's very afraid of the water, afraid of the ocean. 140 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 3: She goes to therapy because of that. So it's something 141 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 3: that I gave Mada my own fear. By the way 142 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: I gave her the professional journalism. I gave her the 143 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: fact that she's a mom like me. I have three, 144 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: she has one. I gave her immigration because she's an 145 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 3: immigrant as well. But above all, I gave her the 146 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 3: fear of the ocean. But you know, there's a scene 147 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: in the book at the very beginning where she has 148 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 3: to go in the water because she's writing about these 149 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: African immigrants, and she has a panic attack, but she 150 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: gets through it. She's there, she's taking notes, she knows 151 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 3: that that's what she needs to do. 152 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: I absolutely identified with your character of Madra, who is 153 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: the journalist in the year twenty nineteen because I know you. 154 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: I was also like, hah Mita's going into some pretty 155 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: intense stuff here. So there's a moment when you write 156 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 2: as the journalist character Mada, when she actually goes to 157 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: Dannity Fe in the Canary Islands to report about migrants 158 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: who have died on a boat that has capsized. 159 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: It's really painful, but. 160 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm just I was like, I need 161 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: meet that to read this, So if you wouldn't mind 162 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: going to the bottom of page forty seven. 163 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: I seeing it was probably painful to write as well. 164 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: Maria at the morgue, on a cold slab of stainless steel, 165 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: I saw the child for the first and last time. 166 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 4: Pis Aphoi would no longer wonder. 167 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 3: She was wearing a green blouse and a beige skirt 168 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: with ruffles. Suddenly, a memory assaulted me. For my own 169 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: journey from Cuba four decades earlier, I had worn the 170 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: red polyester bell bottom pants my mother had made me, 171 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: and my favorite red, white and blue plaid blouse, buttoned 172 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: in the front and festooned with navy blue ribbons around 173 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: the neck. My mother had made that too. I had 174 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: to push it away quickly or I wouldn't have been 175 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: able to finish my job focus, I told myself, quickly 176 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: returning to my notes. Tiny toenails, painted, frosted pink shoes. 177 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 4: No, of course not. She would have lost him, I've seen. 178 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: After the break, we head deeper into Mitta's book and 179 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: how her own journey lives inside the stories she tells. 180 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: The clothes that I described here is exactly what I 181 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: were when I left you by the red pants on 182 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 3: the plaid blouse that my mother made. 183 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: That's after the break. Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. 184 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: Before the break, Medita. He read a passage from her book, 185 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: a powerful scene that takes place in the morgue with 186 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: striking detail and humility, Meeta, that describes the ruffled clothes 187 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: a young migrant girl was wearing when she died. Let's 188 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: continue my conversation with Mirita and hear how her own 189 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: memories of reports on. 190 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: Immigration are braided into her writing. 191 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: Journalists like you and I, we have met these little 192 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: girls who make it right, and we see them when 193 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: they've arrived, and they have arrived wearing their best outfit 194 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: because it's a big moment. And so I was like 195 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: met that was obviously drawing on her own memories of 196 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: leaving Cuba and coming to the United States. 197 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: This specificity of. 198 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: What you were wearing, of making a little African migrant 199 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: child into someone that you just want to hold. 200 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: Yes, And the clothes that I described here is exactly 201 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: what I were when I left Cuba. The red pants 202 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: on the plaid blouse that my mother made exactly. We 203 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 3: don't wear clothes because of where we leave from. But 204 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 3: it's aspirational. Is where we're going to, is how we 205 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: want to show up in this new world that we're 206 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,599 Speaker 3: going to, in this new world of possibilities. 207 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: I'm wondering how the ocean plays such a role. What 208 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: does the ocean represent metaphorically? What does it represent perhaps 209 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: for you? And also in the book. 210 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: When you grow up on an island, the sea represents 211 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: both possibilities and also entrapment. You're surrounded by water, but 212 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 3: if you want to get out, you have to do 213 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: it through the water. And I say in the book, 214 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 3: and I'll tell you now because I firmly believe it. 215 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: I think all Cubans are traumatized by the ocean. 216 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 4: I think we. 217 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: Carry it in our genes. I think it's generational trauma. 218 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 3: If you look at the pictures of Havana, people sitting 219 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: in Malico in the sea wall, some of them are 220 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: looking out to the sea, but most of them I'm 221 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 3: looking back at the city with your back to the water, 222 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: which is insane, because now when I go anywhere near 223 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 3: the water, I want to look at the ocean. It's 224 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 3: so pretty, especially in the Caribbean, and the colors are amazing. 225 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 3: How come I never saw this water in Cuba reflected 226 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 3: that in the book. But I know a lot of 227 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: my friends and relatives don't know how to swim, or 228 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: they learned in the United States, which seems crazy to 229 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: grow up on an island and not know how to swim. 230 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: It would seem that your parents would want you to 231 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: learn how to swiam right away. Now my case, my 232 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 3: parents didn't know how to swim either, and we came 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: here in a boat. So I think the more I 234 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: looked into it, into this dichotomy, into this complicated relationship 235 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 3: that we have with the sea and Maria, it's a graveyard. 236 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 3: So many ships have been lost, so many lives have 237 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: been lost. I mean not just Cubans, Haitians, Dominicans, people 238 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: who have tried to escape one situation or another, only 239 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 3: to die at sea, and. 240 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 4: It's just terrifying. 241 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: And there's a similar situation between Africa and the Canary Islands, 242 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: because the Canary Islands have always been the sort of 243 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: the connection between Africa, Europe and the Americas. I wanted 244 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: book to reflect all of that, all the beauty and 245 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: immensity of the ocean, but at the same time all 246 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: the fear and the dangers that are Inherit also in 247 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: the water. 248 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: So mean that you're writing this book, it's about the 249 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: movement of people, the violence that occurs, whether it's physical 250 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: violence brought on by somebody or a government or nature. 251 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: You're in South Florida, you live in Miami, you are 252 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: a Cuban. Clearly there's a political moment that's happening. But 253 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, what do you think? What do you hope 254 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: that your book adds to the conversation, and particularly from 255 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: a Cuban American experience. 256 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: I wasn't thinking of a message, because I think if 257 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 3: you write a book having a message in mind, a novel, 258 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: not a nonfiction book, but a novel, it's just just 259 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 3: not a good idea. People immediately realize that it's that 260 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: there is a message in the book, and they tune 261 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 3: you out. 262 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: There's going to be some sort of understanding of immigration 263 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: as anche. 264 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 4: So yeah, exactly. 265 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: So I wasn't thinking about anything as I was doing it, 266 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: just make sure that I got the dates right, that 267 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: it flowed, that I did not make any terrible mistakes. 268 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: But again after I read it, when I finished and 269 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: I was in the editing process, I thought, well, if 270 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: people become more curious about immigration in general because of 271 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 3: this book, and they become more curious about Cuba and 272 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: Cuba and about the Canary Islands, then that's good. That's Applaus, 273 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: that's terrific. I mean, anything that I think contributes to 274 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: the understanding of how immigration shapes you and shapes a nation, 275 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: I think it's important at any time in history. When 276 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: I was teaching at Columbia had a professor who taught 277 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: at Barnard, Jose Moya, and Moya taught the history of 278 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: immigration and I always brought into my class and his 279 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 3: first lecture was always immigration is older than the word, 280 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: because before people could talk, they were on the move. 281 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: Why they were looking for food, shelter, safety. I was 282 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 3: already in love with immigration stories. But then I became 283 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 3: obsessed with it, because, I mean, what is older than 284 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 3: that our ability to move to improve our circumstances. That's 285 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 3: your said, It's just part of who we are at 286 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: the very basic cell level as human beings. 287 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: In my own career, for example, I was often distrusted 288 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: or criticized because of the fact that I was an 289 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 2: immigrant covering immigration. Kind of this like, but can we 290 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: trust her to cover this story? Is she a little 291 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 2: bit too pro immigrant in her journalism? 292 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 3: If you are an immigrant yourself, or if you've been 293 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 3: close to immigrants all your life, and if you happen 294 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: to speak the language of the group you're covering, be 295 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 3: a Creole or Spanish or French or German or whatever 296 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: group you're covering, in whatever language you are, it is 297 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 3: a huge advantage. At the very beginning of my career, 298 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: my first day in the Miami Herald, I was sent 299 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: to cover an uprising of marial detainees in a federal 300 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: penitentiary in Atlanta, Georgia. It was November nineteen eighty seven, 301 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: and I was on my first day at the paper, 302 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 3: and the editor sent to me the detainees had taken 303 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: I think ninety three hostages simply because I did not 304 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 3: want to return to Cuba. And so I got there 305 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: and I'm surrounded by reporters from all over the world, 306 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: several of whom came also from the Miami Herald, who 307 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: were excellent reporters with a lot of experience. The national 308 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 3: editor was there, and from day one I'm telling the 309 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: person from the Department of Justice, who was a spokesperson, 310 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 3: I want to go in. 311 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 4: I want to go in. 312 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 3: The stories in there, not here. I want to go in. 313 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 3: But of course you couldn't go in. It was a 314 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 3: very volatile situation. At a certain point, however, the detainees 315 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 3: had reached an agreement to end the takeover, and they 316 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: demanded a reporter who spoke Spanish so a reporter would 317 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: understand them. And so the DOJ remember me, and he 318 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 3: came over and he asked me, you're going in, And 319 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 3: so you know, at twenty three, the youngest person in 320 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 3: the staff, I went in. I'm under no illusions that 321 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 3: it was because I was the best reporter there. 322 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: I wasn't. I was the newest. 323 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 3: I went in because I spoke Spanish, and that was. 324 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 4: A pivotal moment in my career. 325 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 3: I ended up having two stories on the front page 326 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 3: of the Miami Herald, and then I became known as 327 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 3: his person who covered marial detainees, and the. 328 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 4: Rest is history. 329 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 3: I have the same feeling about migrants covering migrants. I 330 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 3: think we are We're adults, professionals, We have been well trained, 331 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 3: and we know how to handle situations no matter what 332 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 3: we're covering, but especially one that is close to us. 333 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: Stay with us. Hey, we're back. 334 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 2: Let's get back to my conversation with journalist and author 335 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 2: Mirtau Hito. So it's interesting, Mitta, because you leave Cuba 336 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: because of the politics of Cuba. A lot of the 337 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: politics of Cuba has always been impacted by the issue 338 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: of censorship and control. Put me into Mirtao Hito's brain, 339 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: not the author of a novel, but rather a Latina 340 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: Cuban American immigrant. 341 00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: Do you know. 342 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 3: I'm the director of a standards at telemon What I 343 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 3: do is to make sure that our reports, be it 344 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: broadcast or online or streaming, adhere to the highest standards 345 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 3: of journalism, the standards of NBC News and of course 346 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 3: our own standards of Telemundo, which are one and the same. 347 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 3: Are we as journalists on the more scrutiny. Now, absolutely 348 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: we are. But if you've always done the same thing 349 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: and you continue to do it right, I have faith 350 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: that it will be okay. We've lost some of the 351 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: trust that people had in media, and part of my 352 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: current obsession and my thought is how do we retain 353 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 3: what we have and how do. 354 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 4: We get it back? 355 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: And the only way that I can think of is 356 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 3: by doing our very best every day to continue to 357 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: report the way we always have, to keep calm and 358 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: to be as truthful and balance and fair as we 359 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 3: know how to be. And it's particularly dangerous because what 360 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: we do is super important for democracy and important for 361 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 3: the present and the future. It is, as far as 362 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: I know, the best job ever and the most legal 363 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 3: fund that you can have in the world being a journalist. 364 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: Frankly, because we get to travel the world and the 365 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: country and to see things with our own eyes, which 366 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: leads me. 367 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 3: To and the privilege of telling the stories of others 368 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: my God, and that and the privilege of being able 369 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: to say hi, I'm hi a marino Hosa, tell me 370 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: what's going on. I mean just that it's just fabulous, 371 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 3: It's terrific. The first person I saw asking questions like 372 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 3: real questions to feel casto was Barbara Walters. 373 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: I was going to say, let's say it at the 374 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: same time Barbara Walters. 375 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: And she said something like, I know that you have 376 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 3: a lot of political prisoners. 377 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: Do you have? How many do you have? 378 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: And he said a few, and she said one thousand. 379 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 3: He said a little more, three thousand, a little more. 380 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 3: She took him all the way to fourteen thousand, and 381 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: then I thought, oh my god, I want to do 382 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 3: what she's doing. I want to be able to ask 383 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: those questions. I mean, like nobody had done that before. 384 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 3: To be able to ask questions and to be able 385 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: always to move the story forward and to investigate, and 386 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 3: to continue to do our work, and we should continue 387 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: to tell those stories. I have an enormous love for 388 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: our profession and an enormous faith on it. And I know, 389 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: as I said earlier, that there's so many courageous journalists 390 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 3: doing great things. I'm no longer in the field, but 391 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: I see it every day. So I am very conscious 392 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: that what we're doing every day it's leaving a mark 393 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 3: in history, and that people will come back years from 394 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 3: now to our reports and tell stories from that. 395 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 4: From our work today. 396 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: All right. 397 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: Well, I hadn't really thought of that as a as 398 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: an element of hope, but I'll take it. 399 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: Mere dao Hito, thank you like it. 400 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 4: I appreciate that. I'm glad. 401 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: Thank you for writing your novel Deeper than the Ocean, 402 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: and for being a great colleague and journalist Felisi that is, 403 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: and gracias for joining. 404 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 4: Me, of course, thank you for having me. 405 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: That was mir daou Hito, author of the new book 406 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 2: Deeper Than the Ocean. This episode was produced by Adriana Rodriguez. 407 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: It was edited by Benny Lei Ramirez and Fernanda Echavari, 408 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: who is our managing editor. 409 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: It was mixed by Lea shaw Dameran. 410 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 2: The Latino USA team includes Roxanna Guire, Julia Caruso, Rebecca Ivara, 411 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: Stephanie Lebau, Luis, Luna Bonivard Marquez, Julita Martinelli, Monica Moreles Garcia, 412 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: Balo Matperez, JJ Crubin. 413 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: Annelo Reyes, and Nancy Trujuillo. 414 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 2: Bennilee Ramrez and I are executive producers. 415 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bandia Josa. 416 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: You can find Latino USA on your podcast feed, also 417 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: on our website latinousa dot org. And you can listen 418 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: to us anytime you want until next time. 419 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: Chaos Latino USA is made possible in part by La 420 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: Tau Foundation, Skyline Foundation, and Druckenmiller Foundation