1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Body dots with Joseph's Gotten More. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: I've always been fascinated by film noir. If you will, 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: I love black and white movies. I wish I had 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: more time to watch them. As a matter of fact, 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: I think I'm going to put that on my checklist. 6 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 2: Kimy and I have to sit down and at least 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 2: watch one noir movie per week until I make it through. 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: You know, you can go to the different categories on 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: these movie platforms and find them. I don't know why 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: I like it. I think it's obviously the darkness of it, 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: the kind of the shifting of light that you can't 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 2: appreciate in color films, and there's always something so foreboding 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: about it, particularly films that involved individuals that, say, for instance, 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: were cons and they escape from prison and those types 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: of things. I'm always fascinated by that because how exactly 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: does an individual escape from a high security prison and 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: just kind of vanishes into thin air. Well, today on 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: body Bags, we're going to discuss one such case. But 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: you know the thing about it is, this guy did 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: not vanish, He didn't melt away before he took the 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: life of a seven year old girl over thirty years ago. 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: Coming to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University. 23 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags, Brother Dave. 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 2: The You know, they talk about being a soldier, and 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: being a soldier is extreme boredom punctuated by just seconds 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: of terror. It would seem that being incarcerated, being in 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: some big penitentiary somewhere would I think, I guess you 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: would have punk way to moments of terror in there, 29 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: but it seems more more like boredom to me. You 30 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: have to occupy your mind, you have to occupy yourself. 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: And I think you know I love Sean shank Redemption. 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: I know you probably do too. It's such a great movie. 33 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: And you think about, you know, somebody that just sits 34 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: there and has the ability to think, how in the 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: world do I escape from this place? And then once 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: you because once you escape, that's the easy part. Staying 37 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: remaining escaped and kind of fading into fading into the 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: darkness is a completely different thing. 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: But the story today when you talk about a seven 40 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: year old child being dead and the reason the seven 41 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: year old is dead is because this scumbag was able 42 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: to escape county jail. Yeah, this is more than problematic. 43 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: This is it's I told you before we started. I 44 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: believe there are a number of other people that ought 45 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: to be suffering the pangs of this right now. But 46 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: let me just let's start. Let's start at the ending. Okay, yeah. 47 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 48 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: It was a hot summer day July twenty fourth, nineteen 49 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: ninety six. Seven year old Morgan went outside to play 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: with a friend at the Shiveline apartment complex that she 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: lived in with her mom and her two sisters in 52 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: Bowling Green, Kentucky. Morgan was with her best friend when 53 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: a man driving an older model maroon Chevy van a 54 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight Chevy van pulls up alongside the girls. 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: Witnesses saw he tries to grab Morgan's friend first, but 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: the little girl is able to get away from him somehow, 57 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: so this man grabs Morgan and slams her into the car. 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Witnesses say the suspect jumped out tried to grab the 59 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: girl Morgan played with when he was unsuccessfully snatched Morgan 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: through endo the van. It's by a way, Oh that 61 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: poor baby. Horrible. Think I'm thinking of all of the children, 62 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: all of the If you witness something like this, you 63 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: know in my head, I'm thinking, why was there not somebody? 64 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: Why was somebody not able to stop? You know, But 65 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: the fact that we're witnesses, the fact they were on 66 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: this right away, the fact people knew. And in nineteen 67 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: ninety six, Joe, we had had a good fifteen years 68 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: of stories of children being snatched, you know, we'd had 69 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries, we'd had John Walsh, you know, we'd had 70 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: all those stories for a long time at this point. 71 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: So when Morgan was snatched, I just am still. I'm 72 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: just at a loss of how it happened. 73 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: But it did, yeah, and in the twinkling of the eye, 74 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: and that that's terrifying. And you wonder why, you know, 75 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: people wonder why. And this is years ago, you know, 76 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: but to this day, and there are any number of 77 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: reasons that we could lay out here why kids don't 78 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: play out in the yard. And you don't see him 79 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: as much as you would like to. But even us, 80 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: you know, Kimmy and I when when we've got our 81 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: babies over here, you know, visiting us, or grandbabies, I 82 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: sound so overprotective. I sit out in the yard when 83 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: them though, yep, they play outside, but I sit out 84 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: in the yard with him. I don't let him out 85 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: of my sighte. 86 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: We need to know. I'm the same way with Brellin. 87 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: Bredin's ten. Breylyn is going to be eleven years old, Okay, 88 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: my grandson. He's a big eleven year old. And yet 89 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: even when he's here at my house, in my fenced 90 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: in backyard, I constantly know where he is and what 91 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: he's doing. I'm usually out there with him because I 92 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: can't stand it. I can't stand the thought of him 93 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: being out there, you know, mainly because he's way too 94 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: creative to be left alone with all this stuff I 95 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: have in my backyard, including a huge swimming pool. You know, 96 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: he would put fish and turtles in there and go 97 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: and make a camping thing. I'm not kidding. This kid 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: is nuts. But anyway to go back to this, in 99 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, at an apartment complex filled with families 100 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: and you've got witness is that watch it happened? Morgan 101 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 1: goes missing. The FBI described the man as about twenty 102 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: to thirty years old in nineteen ninety six, light brown hair, 103 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: medium height, and wait the van in nineteen seventy eight 104 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: maroon Chevy van used in the kidnapping. They were able 105 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: to find out it had been stolen from Dayton, Ohio, 106 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: the day before the abduction Joe the day before. Now 107 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: I'm not good on geography, but it's not that far 108 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: of a distance from Dayton, Ohio to Bowling Green, Kentucky. 109 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: No, No, it's an easy turn to make. I think, 110 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: you know, when you're heading down towhur that I think. 111 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, I'm probably I think Dayton is 112 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: just north of Sancy, and of course Sincy. You know 113 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: you look, you know, you land in Kentucky to go 114 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: to the sin I mean the Cincinnati Airport is actually 115 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: in Kentucky. No, think about that. Everything is, you know, 116 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: very concentrically located. 117 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: That's funny. I didn't know that Cincinnati for. 118 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: All of his problems. You know, they call it the 119 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: Queen City. It's one of the most beautiful cities in 120 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 2: the country. At night, you know, when you see it, 121 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: the sky is incredible. It really is there in Pittsburgh. 122 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: To me, all I think of is Jerry Springer used 123 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: to be the mayor and he wrote a check to 124 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: a whorehouse in Kentucky. You know, That's what I think 125 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: of anyway, But back to this story. The sickest part 126 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: of all of this, Joe, is you've got a witness 127 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: that sees everything happen. You've got people on this case 128 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: right away, but Morgan's not found. It took three months 129 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: to find Morgan. I would like to ads though they did. 130 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: They being in law enforcement, found the Chevy van in Franklin, Tennessee, 131 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: at a Union seventy six truck stop, two days after 132 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: the kidnapping. Now Franklin, Tennessee is about thirty miles south 133 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: of Nashville. So they find that. That's that's big news. Okay, 134 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: you've got we know this is the van where the 135 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: guy stole the girl out of Kentucky. We're looking for 136 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: him right here, you know. And it's them three months 137 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: to find Morgan. And when they did, Joe, it was 138 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible day. I mentioned the van was found 139 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: thirty miles south of Nashville. Morgan's remains found thirty miles 140 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: north of Nashville. She wasn't found until October twenty sixth 141 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety six. Skeletal remains of Morgan were discovered 142 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: in the woods by a woman walking near her home 143 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: in the town of White House. Tennessee just off I 144 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: sixty five. According to what we've been able to figure out, now, 145 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: Kidnapper takes off with Morgan. He kills her in that 146 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: van Joe. He dumps her body thirty miles north of Nashville, 147 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: hops on sixty five, drives to Nashville, goes thirty miles 148 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: south of Nashville, ditches the van. Now, if you think 149 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: about this, this is a person familiar with the area. 150 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: He's added, And if you head straight down south on 151 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: sixty five, you're a hopstick is skipping a jump away 152 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: from Alabama. 153 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you know, you know, you know my son Noah, 154 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: you know, he lives in northern Alabama, actually up in Huntsville. 155 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, he he loves Huntsble 156 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: and we love going to visit him there because it's 157 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: a really cool place if here. But you know, when 158 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: he goes out for serious play, Tom, he's he's heading 159 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: north to Nashville, you know, because they've got a soccer 160 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: soccer team, and he goes to pres Pread's matches and 161 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. It typical young man kind 162 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: of stuff that he does. So yeah, I think that 163 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: people geographically they don't understand this is almost kind of 164 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: a north south linear pattern that we're following here with this. 165 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: You've got somebody that is kind of uh, you know, 166 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: depositing things along the way, if you will, not the 167 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: least of which is this truck. Are this because David, 168 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the van actually many many years later 169 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: will lead to a conclusion in this case, and conclusion 170 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: at a fiber and a molecular level. You know that 171 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: one of these things you think about the twinkling of 172 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: an eye. When you get eyewitnesses to something. Most of 173 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: the time, they don't really realize how important anything that 174 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: they recall at any specific time. 175 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: Is. 176 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: You know, they don't realize that maybe these recollections that 177 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: they have from these moments, you know, when they're when 178 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: they're out there and they're just going about their lives 179 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 2: and they have this ability to see something, to witness something. 180 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: They actually had a description on this perpetrator, and I 181 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 2: think that you had mentioned it had we know that 182 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 2: he was a white male. Yes, thing just happened in 183 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: a fly. You think about poor Morgan there on side 184 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: of the road and she's with her her playmates, and 185 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: I'm sure that they contributed to the descriptor too well. 186 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: Actually went to the FBI and dug through the database 187 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: to look because this was an unsolved crime. It was 188 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: unsolved for thirty years. Okay, it's been a long time coming. 189 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: And so what I did is I went back and 190 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: looked at the FBI file on it to find out 191 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: what the description was. It wasn't filled in after the 192 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: fact that it was not they had a good description 193 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: they had The guy was twenty to thirty years old, 194 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: light brown hair, medium height and weight. This is your 195 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: average everyday guy, all right. And yet when I looked 196 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: at the drawings that they got and what the suspect 197 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: looked like at the time, they had a good look 198 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: at him, and he wasn't somebody known to anybody in 199 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: that apartment complex. Show that was the issue. You've got 200 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: a person driving a van from out of state, comes 201 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: in in and out an apartment complex, you know where 202 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: you do have a lot of transient not in a 203 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: negative you know people that come in and out renting 204 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: and things like that. So there's oftentimes movement in an 205 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: apartment complexes. You see a lot of different vehicles, so 206 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: not that uncommon too, you wouldn't pay attention to it. 207 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: Or off the bat. It's just shocking that the way 208 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: this happened. But you mentioned how they were able to 209 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: utilize that van and how they were able to tie 210 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: it all together. And do you want to go to 211 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: do let me tell you who the guy is or 212 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: do you want to go into how they discovered him? 213 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: How do you want to go about this because it's 214 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: kind of we've had to start at the end to 215 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: go to the beginning, because the reason we know about 216 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: this is because of what transpired to find this is 217 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: an unsolved crime. It happened in nineteen ninety six. Here 218 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: it is twenty twenty six. We're talking about it. Why 219 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: because we just found out they have the solution last week. 220 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 221 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: Think of the family, Joe, think of the poor family, 222 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: the friends, the other little girl that was playing with 223 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: Morgan that day. I mean, what have they gone through 224 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: for the last thirty years? 225 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, what is Let's just take her playmate just for 226 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: a second. What has she gone through? How many nights 227 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: do you think she laid awake in her little bed, 228 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: you know, recalling and trust me, this would be emblazoned 229 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: in her brain, recalling watching this grown man first put 230 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: his hands on her yep, and she was able to 231 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: slip away and then watch watch her friend Morgan be 232 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 2: snatched off into the bit of blackness inside of that man. 233 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: That door shutting, and off they go into the distance. 234 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: You're talking about seven year olds here, Dave, And how 235 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: horrific this is this child. Yeah, it's been bad on 236 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: the parents. I know that it has been. But this, 237 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: this little girl that bore witness to this, this is 238 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: something that will be emblazoned on her psyche for the 239 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: rest of her life. 240 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: Well, think about it. She's thirty seven now, Okay, she's 241 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: probably a mother herself and has probably gone through that 242 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: same fear that you and I did when Archie. You 243 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: know it's there. It's a constant presence in your life, 244 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: you know. 245 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I promise you one thing. I can almost guarantee 246 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: you this, unless she went to some kind of mental 247 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: vapor lock, if you were to sit down with her 248 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: now today, Dave, she could give you fun detail, fine 249 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: detail about what she saw at that moment in time. 250 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, al, it's something that's so burned into there. 251 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: Well, when we actually came around on this, and I'm 252 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: still amazed at how the evidence was, how they were 253 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: able to do this because when you go back in time, 254 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: you go back to we know who the suspect is. 255 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: His name is Robert Froberg. Robert Scott Froberg. That's the 256 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: man's name. By the way, he's sixty one now. He's 257 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: the suspect in the kidnapping and murder of Morgan v Ille. 258 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: December twenty seven, nineteen eighty eight, Robert Froberg committed an 259 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: armed robbery in Montgomery, Alabama. Shortly after that, Froberg was 260 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: arrested and found in possession of paperwork about how to 261 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: hot wire cars. Now this is in nineteen eighty eight. 262 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: Eighty nine. Froberger was sentenced to a lengthy term of 263 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: fore armed robbery. He got a prison term. While he 264 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: was in prison, he learned a few things. February nineteen 265 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: ninety five, prison officials find Froberg in possession of two 266 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: nude pictures of minor girls. April third, nineteen ninety six, 267 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: Froberg escapes from a prison work detail in Birmingham, Alabama. 268 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: He robs an elderly woman and steals her nineteen eighty 269 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: six oldsmobile. Roberg fleeds Alabama in the stolen car, ends 270 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: up in Mount Carmel, Pennsylvania. Now you know what he 271 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: was doing. Joe Froburg. He's on the lamb. He's a 272 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: wanted fugitive and he is in a child's playhouse, a treehouse, 273 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: and he's hiding there. Don't know how long he was there, 274 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: but on May twentieth, nineteen ninety six, this little boy, 275 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: a seven year old boy identified only by his initials WA, 276 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: shows up looking for a friend. The boy goes up 277 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: this treehouse and finds Froburg. Think about this for a minute, 278 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: but Proberg plays it cool. He engages the kid, talking 279 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: to him. The boy says, Hey, what are you gonna do. 280 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: The boy says, I'm going to the store to buy 281 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: some candy. Froberg says, I'll buy it for you. Not 282 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: a problem. The kid sensed something was wrong. He's like, I 283 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: gotta go home and get money. So before Froberg could 284 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: do anything, this kid got out of there. Joe ran 285 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: home and tells his mom, Hey, there's a guy in 286 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: the treehouse. They called the cops right away. They show up. 287 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: A brief chase is on. Froberg is caught seven year old. 288 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: A seven year old did not believe the lying fell, 289 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: so Freberg is locked up in the Northumberland County jail again. 290 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: That's May twentieth, nineteen ninety six. On July sixteenth, nineteen 291 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: ninety six, Froberg escapes Northumberland County jail Joe. He climbs 292 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: a rainspout to the roof, then using a cable, he 293 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: climbs down on the ground. He steals a prison employe's 294 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: bicycle and rides away. It is just this is. 295 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 2: A movie, not You couldn't make this up. 296 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: This is July now again July sixteenth, nineteen ninety six. 297 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: These dates are important. Friends. Remember he's on the lamb 298 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: from Alabama May twentieth, July sixteen. He's now on the 299 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: lamb in Pennsylvania. July of nineteen ninety six, Dayton, Ohio. 300 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: Froberg's parents live in Dayton, Ohio. The address is two 301 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: thousand and one Spice Avenue, in a home that Froburg 302 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: had lived in throughout his formative years. He grew up 303 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: in that home. On July twenty third, nineteen ninety six. 304 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: July twenty third, nineteen ninety six, about a half mile 305 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: from the Froburg's home, a nineteen seventy eight Chevy Van 306 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: Maroon in color is stolen the next day. That was 307 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: the van that was driven to Bowling Green, Kentucky, July 308 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: twenty four, nineteen ninety seven. That's been Morgan Bil just 309 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: kidding opped. 310 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: And I would imagine that you know that Morgan's life 311 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: ended in that van. I mean, you know, the thing 312 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 2: about it is is that you know, with with Morgan, 313 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: those those elements of her and those deeds that were 314 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: done within that van wind up betraying this guy, you know, 315 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: some possible joe. 316 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: He only had the van for a couple of days, right. 317 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: Well, any kind of movements, Yeah, you think about any 318 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: kind of deposition that they find. And I'll get into 319 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: this relative to to Morgan's death. This is a homicide obviously, 320 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: but you think about this guy is trying to stay hid, 321 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 2: and he's trying to stay secluded. So anywhere that he 322 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 2: might go in that van, he's going to leave his 323 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 2: own deposition. This is a fine, fine example of the cards. 324 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: I know you guys get tired of me talking about 325 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: la cards, but the card is is the cornerstone for 326 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: everything we think about in forensics. With those things that 327 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: you leave behind are those things you introduce into a 328 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: scene and. 329 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: Explain where that comes from, Joe, because you take for 330 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: granted that a lot of folks know what you're talking 331 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: about when you say it. I do. But you know what, 332 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: the first time you said it when we were doing 333 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: the show, we were actually doing a show with Nancy, 334 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: and you mentioned it, I wrote it down and looked 335 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: it up because I didn't know. I didn't know what 336 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: it meant. 337 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: Well, it comes from a gentleman named Edmond, Edmond Lcard, 338 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: and he's French, and he was during his day, he 339 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 2: was referred to. I think the first Sherlock Holmes book 340 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: came out in like eighteen eighty seven, and Lecard, you know, 341 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 2: was he appears on the scene in the late nineteen teens, 342 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: early twenties, nineteen twenties rather, And he's a scientist by trade, 343 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: and he understands the connectivity and crime science between at 344 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: an elemental level and the people that are involved in 345 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 2: the crime. He always thought that there would be connectivity. 346 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: So he takes the laws of physical science, you know, 347 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: classic physical science, applies it to crime solving, and he 348 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 2: arrived at and he's got several there's several, you know, 349 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 2: principles that he puts forth, but probably the most famous 350 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: is what's referred to as le Card's exchange principle, and 351 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: that is that every contact leaves a trace. And the 352 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: whole statement is a bit longer than that, but that's 353 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: the condensed version. But every contact leaves a trace. So 354 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: if you, as a perpetrator, are walking into a scene, 355 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: let's just say this pristine world, maybe a van. When 356 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: you get into that van, wherever you have come from, 357 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: you're bringing bits of yourself in your environment with you. Okay, 358 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: Now those things might be unique to you, or it 359 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: might be to another environment, but yet they're deposited in 360 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: that van. So let's just say you walk through You 361 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: walk on the side of the road, and the side 362 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: of the road is compacted clay that's dusty. Well, when 363 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: you mount up on the van and your feet have 364 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 2: been walking through it, you're going to transfer that clay 365 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: into the interior of that van. That doesn't mean that 366 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 2: that came from you, However, it is deposited. If you 367 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: find this person's boots or their shoes and has said 368 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 2: clay on it, then that's a point of connection. That 369 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: doesn't solve the case for you, but it does show 370 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 2: that someone with those shoes or those boots walked into 371 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: that van deposited the same type of clay. Now you 372 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: can also have hair deposition, you know, fiber deposition, you know, 373 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: something that comes off of a pillow or a blanket 374 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: or something like this, or you're shedding hair in this environment. 375 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: Your hair is falling away. That is your hair. And 376 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: now we can take hair and do mitochondrial DNA on 377 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 2: hair and tie it directly back to you. In the past, 378 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 2: we would do things like hair morphology where we would 379 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: look at a hair and we would say, okay, this 380 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: is human. You know. That's where we always start with 381 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: any kind of biological element. Is this human, just like 382 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: we do with blood. So we would look at that 383 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: hair and say, yes, this is in fact human hair. 384 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: Then you have to go down the list. Can you 385 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: put a race with the hair? Well, racing a hair 386 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: is a bit more difficult, okay, because you don't know. 387 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: You know, certain people carry certain genetic markers that might 388 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: predispose them to curly hair, might predispose them stick straight 389 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: hair like mine, or they might have some body to it. Okay, 390 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: But at the molecular level, it tells a tale about 391 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 2: that subject. So in broad strokes in the past. All 392 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 2: we had to look at was the more followed you 393 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: the hair, you know, some other indicators, which is really 394 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: fascinating if you ever see this in a microscope. And 395 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 2: for all our friends out there that go and get 396 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 2: their hair colored, what's fascinating. And Kimmy will do this 397 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: periodically too. She'll say, my roots are showing. And any 398 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: lady you've ever been around, if she gets her hair colored, 399 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: you'll hear them say, my roots are showing. What that 400 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: means is that the hair is growing. And as it grows, 401 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: the shaft increases in length. Well, that area that has 402 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: previously been dyed are colored. You can see a demarcation 403 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: in This thing's kind of fascinating when you look at 404 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: it microscopically because suddenly it changes. You know, you'll see 405 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 2: the natural hair and then you'll see this colored hair 406 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 2: and it has very particular markings to it. It's striking, 407 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: you know when you see it. And that's but that's 408 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: a point of identification. Because now if you've got like 409 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: a six inch strand of hair and it's colored halfway 410 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: up the shaft, well, if you can do, say a 411 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: measurement on how long it takes a human hair to 412 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: grow out that much. You can get an idea of, 413 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: you know, more about the life of this subject. Then 414 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: you can look at the dye that's in the hair. 415 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: You can try to get a sense of where this 416 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: comes from. So you know the card. I'm not saying 417 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: he knew about hair dyes, but he did, in fact 418 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: know that. There's this principle within forensics. It's called individualization. 419 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: It's a beautiful principle because if you hold onto it 420 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: and you bear down on it and use that as 421 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: like your kind of baseline as an investigator. If you 422 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: can say that that this is an individual visualized piece 423 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: of evidence, you very well might unlock the door to 424 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: the scientific truth. Dave, I hate to go on this road, 425 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 2: will you, but this is our programmed body backs, right, 426 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 2: But let me just ask you. Can you tell me 427 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: just a wee bit about how precious Morgan was found. 428 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: I know that it was. It was a period of 429 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: time before they found her. 430 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: You know, she was not found. She was found because 431 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: of the decomposition, the smell. Morgan was found three months 432 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: after she was taken. She was found in October and 433 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: of ninety six. You know, when you think I'll see 434 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: July August August, September, September, October. You've got three of 435 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: the hottest months of the year in the South, and 436 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about thirty miles north of Nashville. She wasn't 437 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: taken care of. She was tossed, just thrown off the 438 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: side of the road into the woods. Joe. Based on 439 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: how close the area was to I sixty five Interstate 440 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: sixty five, I'm going to guess that she Well, there's 441 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: certain things that we know now based on what we've learned, 442 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: that her dead body was carried from the van into 443 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: those woods just off the interstate, just off. Yeah, and 444 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: when you think about driving down the interstate at seventy 445 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: miles an hour, you know, and you glance over at 446 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: the sides, you don't really pay much attention to it 447 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: unless you see something. But usually, especially in that area, 448 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: even now, even thirty years later, driving that area of 449 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: sixty five is just woods. It's woods and houses. 450 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: All through there. Yeah, it's wooded area. And so you 451 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: have to have an event like the occurred with Morgan 452 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: that you know, a passer by in a vehicle is 453 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 2: not going to take notice. But Dave, I think that 454 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: there's a pedestrian involved in. 455 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: This there is a woman. Actually, the area where this 456 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: happened was in white House, Tennessee, And it's one of 457 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: those things I looked up because I had never heard 458 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: of white House, Tennessee. I've heard that this area, but 459 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: I thought maybe it was a misprint, like it was 460 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: supposed to be white Horse. It's white House, Tennessee. Is 461 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: an actual community actually, right is a community that sits 462 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: on two different counties. And when you come to an investigation, 463 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: that can be a problem. And Morgan's body was discarded 464 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: in the wooded area where a woman. It was near 465 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: this woman's home. She's walking down the road. And when 466 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: you think about where the body was found in relation 467 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: to the interstate and the community, it was happenstance that 468 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: she actually was found when she was found because she 469 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: had been there for three months. Joe and her decomposed remains. 470 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: It was a skeletal at that time. Just skeletal remains 471 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: is all that they found. I cannot imagine there was 472 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: a lot of soft tissue left. I'm imagining there was 473 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of it. 474 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: Brother, I got to tell you there has to be 475 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: something there, because you know, the opinion, the opinion of 476 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: the medical, legal authorities is that she was strangled. So 477 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: I think that's an interesting point, and you really have to, 478 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: you know, kind of dig into this a little bit 479 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: and think, well, if I don't if I've got a 480 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: diagnosis that's being related here that where they believe she 481 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: was strangled, and you've got decomposing remains, which for those 482 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: that don't know, it's one of the most difficult assessments 483 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: that you can do. I'd say that I would say 484 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: fire is, but with fire bodies you still have this 485 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: kind of hardened containment. That's probably not a good way 486 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: to say it. But the body is, it's burned in 487 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: one spot, for lack of a better term, Decomposed bodies 488 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: become very gelatinous, I'll put it to that way. They're 489 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: gelaginous and soupy, is really the only way I can 490 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: put it in. The longer you go with you know, 491 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: all of the organics contained in there, it's not necessarily 492 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: a melting. It's just that the cellular tissue is breaking 493 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: down and it gives way. So at that matrix, at 494 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: that baseline matrix that keeps everything, keeps us connected and 495 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: makes up our architecture, that's literally being dissolved Dave. And 496 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: as those limits are reached with you know, the changes 497 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: relative to decomposition, everything just kind of it's like a 498 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: collapsing building, if you will. That just kind of gives way. 499 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: I would compare it more probably to a sand castle 500 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: that's being washed away, because with a building, you know, 501 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: you might still have bricks and that sort of thing, 502 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: and you do have bones, but you understand what I'm saying, 503 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: it just kind of melts away. You can look there 504 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: and you can see, well, at one point in time, 505 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: this was a body, but you have to catch it 506 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: at the right point in time where you can still 507 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: make a rather complex diagnosis, which you know, some kind 508 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: of trauma to the neck is very difficult to make 509 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: when the body is not fresh. How are you arriving 510 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 2: at this conclusion? I really wonder again if her Laynix 511 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: the organs of the neck that are really cartilaginous, the trachia, 512 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: this sort of thing. I really wonder if because they 513 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: might be a bit they are. I know this for fact, 514 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: they are a bit more resilient than say muscle and 515 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: soft tissue. So was there any trauma there? And of 516 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: course we have to go back to uh, something we've 517 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: talked about considerably. Was our highway intact. Now, the one 518 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: saving grace with her case, Dave, is that her body 519 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: was in a bag, so it's not going to be 520 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: you can have scavengers that will show up, but not 521 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: like where you're talking about a surface deposition of a 522 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: body where you know they're coming and they're going. And 523 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: you know, if you put a if you had a 524 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: cadaver and you had a what's it called a you know, 525 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: a game a game camera out there, and you could 526 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: see the little animals coming and going. They've done this 527 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: a lot. 528 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: Actually. 529 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: I think there's pretty good, uh, pretty good documentary on 530 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: on YouTube about Secrets of the Body Farm where they've 531 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: got a camera that shows kind of the march of 532 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: the insects around the body. The same thing happens with 533 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: species as well. And if you could see that, you 534 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: would see, you know, going to the graphic detail, but 535 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: you know, the feasting on the body, and then you 536 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: would have the uh, other animals carrying things away, those 537 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: sort of things, which you don't have that here. And 538 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: not only were they able, Dave, in this particular case, 539 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 2: to assess that this was some kind of asphyxial death, 540 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: but Dave. They they actually had containment on on fiber 541 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 2: evidence that originated from where that van. Wow, And isn't 542 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: that amazing After all that period of time they were 543 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: able to tie back and you know you mentioned earlier, brother, 544 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 2: you know they found that damn van. They found it 545 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: in frank It was Franklin, Tennessee, right. 546 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. And again thirty miles north of Tennessee 547 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: is where her body was dumped out. Thirty miles south 548 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: of Tennessee of matt Nashville, rather in Franklin. That's where 549 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: the was found. And by the way, that van had 550 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: been totally cleaned when they found it. It had been 551 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: wiped clean, so the suspect thought he washed it, scrubbed it, 552 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: but did not get everything Joe, and it was that. Now, 553 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: a lot of what we've learned about Morgan's what happened 554 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: with Morgan from the time she was taken, has come 555 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: from the suspect, okay, to something to finish up with here. 556 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: This man, I hate to even call him, that he 557 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: was rearrested in August of nineteen ninety six. Okay. Now, 558 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: remember when we said pay attention to the dates. Ye 559 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: May twenty, nineteen ninety six, he's out of town. He 560 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: escapes Alabama, goes to Tennisee, Pennsylvania. He's arrested there. He 561 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: escapes county jail there in July July twenty thirty, steals 562 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: the van next to his parents' house. July twenty four, 563 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: ninety six, he finds Morgan. He snatches her. He throws 564 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: her in the van. By the way, Morgan was fighting 565 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: and screaming. That was why some of the witnesses knew 566 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: what had happened. They paid attention because they heard her screaming. 567 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: Once they were able to get this down pat they 568 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: found out that Morgan was fighting and screaming the whole way. 569 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: A handkerchief was used to cover her mouth, and that's 570 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: where Robert Froberg used that to strangle her. According to him. Now, 571 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: Froburg to calm Morgan down, told her that they were 572 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: going to see her dad. Now how he knew to 573 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: say that, I don't know, But he was just passing through. 574 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: He didn't have any real connection there. This was such 575 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: a happenstance occasion, Joe. For this little girl she fought. 576 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: He killed her in that van and then dumped her 577 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: body like it was nothing. He drives sixty miles from 578 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: where he dumps her body, cleans out the van, and 579 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: leaves it where it's found. You know, the van was 580 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: found two days after she was kidnapped. Think about that. 581 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: They find this van two days after Morgan is kidnapped. 582 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: There's still hope she's alive. They're still hoping that we're 583 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: going to find this little seven year old girl. But 584 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: she was already dead when they found this van. They 585 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: had been totally cleaned out. 586 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and probably had been for at least twenty four hours. 587 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Yeah, he dumped it right away. So Froburg 588 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: he does make it back to Alabama, and he's arrested 589 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: in August. Joe, August of nineteen ninety six. You know, 590 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: when we talked about how Froberg was sentenced for the 591 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: armor every charge in eighty eight. It was a long 592 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 1: sentence then, and he kept piling up other charges while 593 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: he was in jail and in prison, and when you escape, 594 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: that's even more. He was still in prison from that 595 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: original charge in eighty eight when they rested him in 596 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: ninety six. He's been in jail ever since. He's been 597 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: in jail since a month, okay, since a month after 598 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: he killed Morgan. He's been in jail ever since. He 599 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: was in jail for two months before her body was found, 600 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: Joe for two months before her body was found. He 601 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: was in jail. 602 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: Well this we know, the FEDS have gotten hold of this, 603 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: and the FEDS are the ones that are charging him now. 604 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: They're involved in this case involving Morgan's homicide. And what's 605 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 2: really interesting about this, Dave, is that Morgan, you know, 606 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 2: almost like some kind of specter, you know, arises and 607 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: you know, points to him through her own her own 608 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: biology that he he was the person that did this. 609 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 2: Because Dave contained within that bag that they found dumped 610 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 2: there in that area where this precious child's remains contained 611 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: within her hair, Dave were fibers off of one of 612 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: the pillows or cushions rather inside of that van that 613 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: he had stolen. So there the cards, you've got that attachment. 614 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: Now we know that he's been in the joint for 615 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: some time. It's the confirmatory thing is that he left 616 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 2: his own DNA in that damn van. And when he did, 617 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 2: science finally caught up to everything because they were able. 618 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 2: This is one of the cases where Cotis works Dave. 619 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 2: They were able to take that sample and put it 620 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 2: into cotis and guess what, they got a hit on 621 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: this comeback, they got to hit and again pointing the 622 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 2: finger at him. The science is telling the truth here. 623 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: But you know, the time has passed, The time has 624 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 2: passed for you know, so called and I never know 625 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: what this actually means justice. You know, in a case 626 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: like this, justice would have been that this precious little 627 00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: angel would have been able to live her life to 628 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 2: the fullest and instead on that as you put that 629 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: hot July day back in nineteen ninety six, her life ended. 630 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: It ended, and he was able to go on with 631 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: his life. Now maybe it's behind bars and incarcerated, but 632 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: he is still drawing breath. And I echo your sentiments, Dave. 633 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: If anybody had knowledge of this, looking at the parents here, 634 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 2: that he was on the lamb that they facilitated in 635 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 2: any way in his safe passage or whatever the case 636 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 2: might be, shame on you, Shame on you for doing this, 637 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 2: because now you know, Morgan's at peace. Now, she's been 638 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 2: at peace for a long time. But all of those 639 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 2: that are out there that were in her circle, her parents, 640 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 2: her grandparents, her extended family, and oh yeah, that little 641 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 2: girl that witnesses happened, that has probably spent many any 642 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: sleepless nights, may have had to go to therapy. You 643 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 2: robbed them of peace by virtue of the fact that 644 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 2: you took care of this guy. 645 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: What a shame. 646 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Facts.