1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph's gotten more, as you know. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: I'm proud to say that I'm from Louisiana. I don't 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: live there now. I miss home, I miss my family 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: down there many days, but I have fond memories of 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: my childhood and early adulthood down there. I learned a lot. 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: The state taught me a lot. The environment taught me 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: a lot down there, particularly when it came to being 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: a death investigator. Nature's funny that way. It can teach 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: you things about life, even in the midst of horrible circumstances, 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: when you're observing all that remains. 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Relative to death. 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: It's a harsh environment, just like say a jungle, a 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: lot of humidity. Everything seems like it's wet because it 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: is most of the time, and it seems that it 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: consumes everything around it, whether it's vines or trees or 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: low growth scrub or just the animals that live there. 17 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 2: Everything over a period of time bends its knee to 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: nature in those wet environments, much like the jungle of Diana, 19 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: where several decades back, we had a horrible event that occurred, 20 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: an event that still impacts even our language today. Don't 21 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: drink the kool aid. But with that in mind, there 22 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: is now a company out there that wishes to take 23 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: people on a tour, a tour of a location where 24 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: one of the most disgusting and horrible events in human 25 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: history took place. I'm talking about the Jonestown Massacre. I'm 26 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. I came 27 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: across something on my newsfeed the other day that kind 28 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: of took me aback, and it was the fact that 29 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: there was an article that appeared in Rolling Stone and 30 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: let me see, I think I've got it here at 31 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: my fingertips. Yeah, this is actually on July the third. 32 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: Just to give you an idea. The title of this 33 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: thing is Jonestown Massacre site where over nine hundred people died, 34 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: opens to tourism. And I'm thinking, oh my lord, are 35 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: they actually serious? Are they actually serious? And apparently this 36 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: is it's not just the name of the company is 37 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: actually called of all things Wanderlust. This is falls into 38 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: a group a category of tourism that's called dark tourism, 39 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: and even things like you know, like concentration camps are 40 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: part of this world. You go to you go to 41 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: London and you know, Jack the Ripper tours have been 42 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: making the rounds for years and years in my hometown 43 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: of New Orleans. You know, one of the big visitations 44 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: that people always do, uh, is they want to go 45 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: seek out Marie Levoe's grave, the voodoo queen, you know 46 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: of New Orleans. They even had the album that came 47 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: out back I mean the song that came out back 48 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 2: in the fifties. But you know, Marie Leveau was She's 49 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: kind of a character. We're not talking about some kind 50 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: of disembodied spirit here. We're actually talking about a location 51 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: where over nine hundred people went at the urgings of 52 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: a man who claimed to be a man of God. 53 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: I'm doing air quotes and drugged them down there to 54 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: this location that I'll put it to you this way, 55 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken. I think this is one of 56 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 2: the locations where the French Foreign Legion goes to do 57 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 2: jungle training. Probably that gives you how an idea of 58 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: how hostile this environment is. And these people lost their 59 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: lives down there, Dave, And now people want to go 60 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: and tour this location. It's kind of amazing. 61 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: I think. 62 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 4: I have mixed feelings about it. You know, that a 63 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 4: tourism thing, but if it prevents one person from following 64 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 4: a madman into the jungle again, Yeah, you know, I 65 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: guess there could be something good that could come out 66 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 4: of it. But I, like you, I remember the site 67 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 4: of this on the news. I remember the stories of hundreds, 68 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 4: and they were almost unbelievable. It's like because at first 69 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 4: it was Congressman Leo Ran murdered in South America. Nobody 70 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 4: knew where Guyana was. I did, okay, I didn't know 71 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 4: where Guyana was. And I remember hearing about it. 72 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: Because I was a kid. 73 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I remember hearing about, you know, this congressman 74 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 4: was killed, and that was the first thing, you know, 75 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 4: because and that there was a newsperson, a cameraman who 76 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: was also killed, and several others were killed. That was 77 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: what we heard about first. It wasn't the mass suicide 78 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 4: that we knew of right off the bat. The first 79 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 4: story was Leorian congressman murdered, you know, on a fact 80 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 4: finding mission. Because the people that were in this village 81 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 4: in Jonestown, which we had no idea what it was, 82 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 4: really a number of family members from Leo Ryan's home 83 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 4: district in northern California asked him please They had been 84 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 4: families have been asking local politicians for help for a 85 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 4: long time and they couldn't get any. Harvey Milk, who 86 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 4: was the superintendent of San Francisco or along those lines, 87 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 4: wrote a letter to President Carter in nineteen seventy seven saying, 88 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 4: Jim Jones is a good guy. 89 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 3: Leave him alone. 90 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 4: You're hearing a bunch of lies from a defector, you know. 91 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 4: And it was from a man whose son was still 92 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 4: there with his wife. He was trying to get him out, 93 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 4: and they weren't getting help from local politicians. Leo Ryan 94 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: decided to go check it out, and he went down 95 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 4: there with his aid, and you know, he was then murdered, 96 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 4: and we know the aftermath. So I guess my thinking is, Joe, 97 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 4: and I was really curious when you brought this up, 98 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 4: because I did some researching on the article that Rolling 99 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: Stone has, and there are a number of different outlets 100 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 4: who have also reported on this dark tourism, and I wonder, 101 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: I guess you and I look at it because it's 102 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 4: contemporary to we remember Jonestown, We remember it. I don't 103 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 4: remember the reports of World War Two. I wasn't alive then. 104 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 4: I didn't hear those, so it's historical for me when 105 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 4: I see film being played of deliberation of some of 106 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 4: the concentration camps that you can find occasionally seeing those 107 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 4: old war pictures. But Guyana was on our television. I 108 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: remember seeing the helicopter or news covering you know, cruise 109 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 4: and seeing what we believe were bodies. 110 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: They were bodies, And the thing about it is is 111 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: that these bodies when you see it from the air, 112 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: and I remember the day because this is kind of 113 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: how my brain works relative to the news. We never 114 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: really saw bodies as children in Vietnam, but we saw 115 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 2: those reports every single night. We saw the heros lifting off, 116 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: they're carrying wounded, or they're bringing in troops, and troops 117 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: are getting off of the heroes. And I remember because 118 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: my father was involved in Vietnam and during that period 119 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: of time. And I don't know if you recall this 120 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: because we were both kids during this period of time, 121 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: but they would they would, like Walter Cronkite, they would 122 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: put the numbers of dead on the screen and it. 123 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: Was a static, old graphic shots that they. 124 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: Would use in the news industry, and you'd see those 125 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: every now and then, but it was not really tangible, 126 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: you know, what I'm saying as a as a teenager 127 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: or a young teenager during this period of time, I 128 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: remember that aerial shot of this body, and then of 129 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: course I sought it out in magazines after that, because 130 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: I want, you know, the thing that you see. 131 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: We didn't have video back then. 132 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: We had the internet like we have it now. 133 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: We didn't even have VCRs. If you had a VCR 134 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: you were very wealthy, and we didn't have that and so, 135 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: and even if you did, you wouldn't have access to 136 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: the tape of so you catch a fleeting glimpse, you know, 137 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: when it was news at that particular time. But I 138 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: remember going back and look at those still frames like 139 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: in Time magazine or Life or one of those things, 140 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: and you couldn't really take the measure of it. In 141 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 2: my young brain, I couldn't, right, And so yeah, it 142 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: was it was striking that you could get daved. I 143 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: swear it looked like it looked like a lightning bolt 144 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: had descended from the heavens and everybody just kind of 145 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: dropped dead right where they were standing. Because you had 146 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: you had families, You had mamas with their kids. And 147 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: one of the things that I remember is they're laying abreast, okay, 148 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: like shoulder to shoulder, and some of these people are 149 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 2: laying face down on this hot and I remember the 150 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: soil is like this bright red clay and with greenery everywhere, 151 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 2: and you'd see parents like Huddler with their kids adjacent 152 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: to them, and you couldn't take the measure. And looking 153 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: back at those images now you can see all of 154 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: those bodies are bloated, every single one of them, and 155 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: being in that environment, it's not not surprising, not surprising, 156 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: that's at all. 157 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 4: That's what I was going to ask you when you 158 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 4: first sent me the article, and I'm going, okay, I 159 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: can't even imagine what's left of Jonestown in Guyana, because 160 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 4: I thought the jungle would have swallowed it back up 161 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 4: by now. So in order to go in there and 162 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: to look over what was left, I don't know. I'm 163 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: curious now as to what's left because most of it 164 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 4: was built out of wood and bamboo and local things 165 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 4: they could get. They cut, you know, cleared the land. 166 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 4: But just as a quick heads up, it was reported 167 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 4: that it was a religious cult, an End of Time's 168 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 4: religious cult, led by Jim Jones, pastor reverend Reverend Jim Jones. 169 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: That's what they called him. 170 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and that's not actually the truth of the matter. 171 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 4: If you actually dig into it, and I encourage you 172 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 4: to do it. From a historical standpoint, you know, those 173 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 4: who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. 174 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 4: These madmen exist in every community across America. There is 175 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 4: somebody who is leading people astray, and it can be 176 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 4: any number of ways. A lot of times God is 177 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 4: used as that conduit to lead people astray because people 178 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 4: are looking for something better than what they have. Most 179 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 4: of us know that you cannot be satisfied by money 180 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 4: and things. We're looking for something more, and it is 181 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 4: that that makes life worth living. It's the more. But 182 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 4: the thing is, there's always some con man waiting to 183 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: take your passionately held belief in helping your fellow man 184 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: and turning it around and stealing your heart and your life. 185 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 4: As it happened in Guyana, this man convinced people that 186 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 4: what they were doing was good. He convinced them and 187 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 4: then conditioned them. Jim Jones studied. He was He was 188 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: not an unlearned person. He knew what he was doing, 189 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 4: and he went and made it happen. He made Guyana happen. 190 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 4: Of course, they were being run out of northern California 191 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 4: because his cult was being looked into for the damage 192 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 4: it was doing to families and people. But he had 193 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: enough friends in positions of power. And I will tell 194 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 4: you that's one of the biggest fears of my life, 195 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 4: is that that'll happen again, Joe, if it might have 196 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 4: happened already and we just don't know it. But this 197 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 4: is the biggest, the biggest loss of life in our 198 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 4: American history because they were all I guess they were 199 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: all American citizens, they all came from northern California. But 200 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 4: other than nine to eleven, this was the biggest loss 201 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 4: of life in one day that we'd ever experienced as 202 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 4: a country. 203 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that probably Americans looking back over 204 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: Tom you know, we can look at those horrible images 205 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: from nine to eleven and we can see those buildings 206 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,359 Speaker 2: come crashing down. We can even see people throwing themselves 207 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: out of those buildings. But you're talking about thousands of 208 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: miles away in some isolated jungle where no one has 209 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: most of us have never even heard of it, where 210 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: you've got loved ones that have died that are littering 211 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: the floor of this jungle so called utopia. Down there 212 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: are we doomed to repeat this again. 213 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: I've had the. 214 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: Pleasure of working with some pretty cool cats over the 215 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: course of my career, and one of the most interesting 216 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: fellows I think I probably ever came across is a 217 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: guy named doctor Bill Eckerd. I caught him at the 218 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: end of his career. Doctor Eckerd was a rather renowned 219 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: forensic pathologist. I came across him because he had done 220 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: some of his time in New Orleans. He was a 221 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: He was quite the forensic pathologist of Galden to Nyu. 222 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: I think that he had paused for a period of 223 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: time to fight in World War Two. I'm not really 224 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: sure he but he had lived this kind of really 225 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: really interesting life, and one of the elements of it 226 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: was that he was involved in some of the examinations 227 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: involving Jonestown. And I've never been able to purely verify this, 228 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: but doctor Eckert had told a group of us at 229 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 2: one point in time we were gathered that he went 230 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: down to Guyana to Jonestown at the behest of the 231 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: State Department to do autopsies, and he had done autopsies 232 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: down there, and when you can you imagine doing an outdoor, 233 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: outdoor autopsy day on remains in that kind of hostile environment. 234 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 4: You know what, I'm curious, Joe, because we know, we 235 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 4: know the type of atmosphere weather wise that they were 236 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: dealing with, and yet you mentioned that you could tell 237 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 4: that the bodies were bloated. We've got nine hundred men, 238 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 4: women and children, two hundred and sixty seven children, infants, 239 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 4: little kids, and they're all laid out, and I have 240 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 4: to wonder what was it like for those who because 241 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 4: all these bodies have to be identified, right, I mean everybody, 242 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 4: You have to identify who they are, how they died, 243 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 4: what killed them? How are you going to get And 244 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: it wasn't like they came in that night after it happened. 245 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: It's been days. 246 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, Just I think, even even about today's standards, to 247 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: try to get to this location, even the world current 248 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: contexts that we live in Nowaday, even if you and 249 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: I were to I don't know, I guess we would 250 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: maybe fly out of Atlanta and wind up going you know, 251 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: Lord only knows where. I don't know if we could 252 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: get a direct flight into Guyana out of Atlanta we'd 253 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: probably have to make several connections along the way, but 254 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: even when you land in the capital, then you have 255 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: to find a way to get out to this location 256 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: because it's truly isolated. And that's what that's what Jones wanted. 257 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: He wanted to be apart from this. But one of 258 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: the things that stands out that doctor Eckert hadn't mentioned 259 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: to me, and this really struck a chord with me. 260 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: I've been on the scene of multiple decomposing bodies at 261 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: one time and have approached say one stands out in 262 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: mind where I had a bunch of drug dealers that 263 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: were killed in a van where the windows had been 264 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: blown out, and the van had been sitting there for 265 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: months and no one had discovered the body and so months, yeah, 266 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: months literally, Uh, and they were uh, these guys were 267 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: Mexican nationals'll they forget And it was in a customized van, 268 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: It's a really nice van and they had been shot 269 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: and uh, seems like there were either four or five 270 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: bodies all stacked on top of one another in the 271 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: van and the windows were blown out, and it was 272 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 2: outside of a business park and a guy had walked 273 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: around a corner to take a smoke break and he 274 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 2: saw the van and walked over to it, and you know, 275 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, took a couple of steps back 276 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: because the smell was so bad when I got there. 277 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: I remember I got within probably thirty feet of the 278 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: van and I caught a whiff at that point. Toime, 279 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: I've been around a lot of decomposed bodies. But back 280 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: to doctor Eckert, he said he flew in to the 281 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 2: location in a Huie in a Huey helicopter, which if 282 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: you don't know what a hue looks like, I think 283 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: v Atnam. 284 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: You'll see it. 285 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 2: You know, Fortunate Sons playing in the background. All right, 286 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: Creed its clear water Revival doors are open on the side. 287 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: And he said that even at like a two thousand 288 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: foot elevation, coming in across the top of the jungle, 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: they were like a mile two miles out, he could smell. 290 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 4: Death coming get a mile away, and you know, thousand, 291 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 4: two thousand feet up in the air, and smelling death 292 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 4: is not something that most of us can identify with in. 293 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: This kind of harsh environment. Dave, and I've stated this 294 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: before very plainly, but let me kind of reiterate this, 295 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: just as with all experiments that we that you might 296 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: conduct in a scientific environment, like in chemistry, for instance, 297 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: heat always speeds things up. Okay, you couple that with 298 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 2: this intense heat that they would have had in this jungle, 299 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: not to mention incredibly high levels of humidity as well, 300 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: and you will see these manifestations on the bodies relative 301 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: to you know, there were let me put it to 302 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: you this way. In these cases, you will see flies 303 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: begin to lay eggs on the deceased in this kind 304 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: of environment, potentially within the hour. Just let that sink 305 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 2: in just for a second. Have you ever been at 306 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 2: a picnic and you've been bugged literally bugged by a 307 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: bug a fly in your face? Like this, they're everywhere, 308 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: and so as the smell begins to kind of rise, 309 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: if you will, the alarms go off for these flies 310 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: and they come in from everywhere. You don't see them, okay, 311 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: but all of a sudden they're there. That's another part 312 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: of this horror show, if you will. You know, with 313 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: doctor Ecker, who was one of my mentors, you know, 314 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: mentioned as he came in on that huey he could 315 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: smell it. But you know when he would have landed here, 316 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: what's really fascinating is that as soon as he made 317 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: entrance into this area, there would have been swarms and 318 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: swarms of flies that were everywhere. They're lighting on everybody. 319 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: And as an old death investigator, that's one of the 320 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: things that used to actually unnerve me Dave about death investigation, 321 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: because you would have with decomps in particular, because you 322 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: would have flies that were feasting on the dead essentially, 323 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: and then they would light on you. They would fly 324 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: into your ears, your nose, your mouth, if you're talking 325 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 2: to somebody, you'll have because they're in this kind of 326 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: fever feeding frenzy as they're around there. And it's really 327 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: disgusting when you think about it. But when you take 328 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: this and you look at this exponentially, because we're talking 329 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: about nine hundred. 330 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: Bodies right right, you compound. 331 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: The situation with this, it's an absolute and utter nightmare. 332 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: The bodies in the jungle will not adjust to you. 333 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: You have to adjust to them, and you still have 334 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 2: to do a scientific examination despite how horrible this environment is. 335 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: You still have to make a determination about manner and 336 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: cause of death in each one of these cases. And 337 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: here here's something kind of fascinating. I was kind of 338 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: ruminating over this. When you think about this, uh, you know, 339 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: the the methodology that was applied here, this uh uh, 340 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: the cyanide uh that these people were subjected to and 341 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 2: that were essentially forced to drink. 342 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: I really wonder. 343 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 2: What kind of markers they might have seen on the 344 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: bodies as well, not just what they're looking at toxicology wise. 345 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: I wonder from my perspective, and I hate that I 346 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 2: never picked doctor Eckert's brain about this, but did they 347 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: do blood draws on every single person there? 348 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: Okay? 349 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: And then if they did, were they able to come 350 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: up with specific levels of toxicity? Because you know, you 351 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: can actually have you can actually have this stuff on 352 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: board in your system. It's a naturally occurring element and 353 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: it's you can actually have it on board, and there 354 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: are non lethal levels of it, okay, But once it 355 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: hits that lethal level, there's no you cannot unspin this 356 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: thing at that point in time, unless, of course, you've 357 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: got the necessary medical means that you're disposal on. Of course, 358 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 2: out in the jungle, you're not going to have that. 359 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 4: And that was not their intent. Their intent was to die, 360 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 4: not to find a way to survive. 361 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've thought about this extensively. You know, back then, 362 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: I think that sinod was probably a bit easier to 363 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: get your hands on. Remember, we recently did we recently 364 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 2: did an episode relative to a jet and that was 365 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: the it was the ant poisoning that. 366 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah using arsenic. 367 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, arsenic, and so those elements within that particular brand 368 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: of ant poisoning, that brand still exists, but they don't 369 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: use arsenic anymore, Okay, Okay, So it's the same. 370 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: Thing with sinide. It may very well have been used 371 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: because it's used. 372 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: In all for all manner things in the industrial world, metallurgy, 373 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: these things, uh, you know, and there's short term exposure 374 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: with low dosages where people that are mining the stuff. 375 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: Can you imagine working in a mine and you're subjected 376 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: to this where they're mining it out and you're absorbing 377 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: it through your skin, you're breathing it in, and they 378 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: get low doses. But if you hit somebody with a 379 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: high doses dosage of this stuff and they're contracting it 380 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: literally by ingesting it, and what a horrible set of circumstances. 381 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: You've got people having seizures, You've got people that are 382 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: having incredible gastrointestinal distress. There's vomiting going on, explosive diarrhea, 383 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: you know, I know that's horrible to talk about pounding headaches, 384 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 2: I mean blinding headaches. You've got rapid heartbeat, profuse sweating, 385 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 2: and then eventually seizures and coma and so you know, 386 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: and this happens with these levels. It happens very very quickly. 387 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: But my whole point, as I'm kind of holding forth here, 388 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: my whole point with this is that you still have 389 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: to I think that you would dishonor the memory not 390 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: just of the victims, but of those victims, but also 391 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 2: the victims of the Fact Finding Commission if you did 392 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: not do a deep dive. You know, they sacrificed their 393 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 2: lives here. Let's try to understand what was the mode 394 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 2: the modality of death here. You know, what are we 395 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: talking gunshot wounds? Are they inflicted by someone else? Are 396 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: they self inflicted? Is this poisoning? 397 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: I don't know? 398 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 2: For all you know, you might have people that were 399 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: beaten prior to ingesting the stuff. So there's a lot 400 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: to pick through. And anytime you do these autopsies, and 401 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: I've never done an autopsy obviously in a jungle. I 402 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: have done an autopsy in a barn. Matter of fact, 403 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 2: a couple I did one in a barn, or assisted 404 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: with one in a barn. I've done a couple of 405 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: them in garages at funeral homes. Because the bodies were 406 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: so decomposed and it was in an outlying area, you 407 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: don't have access to the same tools. And when I 408 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: say tools, I'm talking about things like basic lighting. I 409 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: remember being in a barn and there were people, actually 410 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: it got close to dusk and there were police officers 411 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: there and they had flashlights out. 412 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, wow. 413 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was talk of you know, shining high beams 414 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: you know, into there. We were able to finish the case, 415 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: but you know, you you do every now and then 416 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: have to go into these austere environments. 417 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: Uh. 418 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, doctor Eckert as a as an aside, Uh, 419 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 2: he was actually the person that participated in the exhumation 420 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: of Joseph Mingla. 421 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, that he was. That he was who they 422 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: thought he was, right, Yeah. 423 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and you know, so I was. 424 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: I was. 425 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: You know, he was always kind of a hero to me. Uh. 426 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: He probably worked a bit longer than he should, but 427 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of friends. It's all forensic pathologists know. 428 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 2: But you know, when you look at a career like 429 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: his and these other story, you know, we've lost a 430 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: lot of a lot of that generation of forensic pathologists now. 431 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: And you and I have talked about that, Uh, those tales. 432 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: Have you know, if you don't, you don't keep it 433 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: up and continue to talk about what these people did. 434 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: I don't. 435 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: It's hard for me to imagine a forensic pathologist now 436 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: going into that kind of environment and working in that 437 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 2: austere environment like that. I guess they could, but you know, 438 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: when you have mass fautalities now they actually have. You 439 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: look at d mort teams, which is the disaster mortuary 440 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: response teams, they have portable morgus that literally you can 441 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: you can cut the ropes on if you will, and 442 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: the whole thing kind of deploys where there's a table 443 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: there and you've got all of your tools and all 444 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: of that stuff. So you can go to an event 445 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 2: like a plane crash and have everything souped and nuts 446 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: ready to rock and roll. That's not the way it 447 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: used to be. It's almost kind of a cowboy mentality, 448 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, when you think about that, and then you're 449 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: you're expected to come up with your scientific findings. Uh uh, 450 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: and you had to do it in a in a 451 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: very huh I've used the word austere. You have to 452 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 2: do it in kind of a hostile environment. Can you 453 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: imagine having to do this and fighting flies the entire 454 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 2: time and any other kind of nasties that might be 455 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 2: emerging out of the jungle. And hey, you never know 456 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: who's out in the jungle that might be looking. 457 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: At you as you're going through all of this. 458 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: I guess looking back through you know, the veil of 459 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: time here. You people don't understand that that this they 460 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: call it an airports and landing strip, is essentially what 461 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: it is. 462 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: Dave. This thing. 463 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: This thing's like six miles from the actual compound at Jonestown. 464 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 2: And my thought is is that this is an area 465 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: that you have to find if you're going to facilitate 466 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: bringing in fixed wing aircraft, if you're going to create 467 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: e this, you have to find the ideal location that's 468 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: absolutely any kind of rivers, ravines, or that's a flat 469 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: area that you can go in and plow down, you know, 470 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: all of the trees and then scrape this area and 471 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: make it at least suitable. And it rains so much too. 472 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: Can you imagine it'd be a muddy, bloody mess out there. 473 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: It's six miles from Jonestown. From there, they're they're having 474 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: to you know. You you've made an interesting point, Dave 475 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:36,479 Speaker 2: about about the people that ambushed the party arriving on tractors, right. 476 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: You know, we don't think. 477 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: About traveling about on tractors, you know, but tractors many 478 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: times in this kind of environment, uneven roads, that sort 479 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: of thing that's really kind of the only way you're 480 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: going to get through. 481 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 4: And they were, you know, towing a trailer behind them. 482 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 4: You know, that's still shocking to me. And I only 483 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 4: know that from the video the news the NBC news 484 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 4: guy when he fell over and his camera you can 485 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 4: pick it up where they're cut. You know, they're shooting 486 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 4: from the back of that trailer that's being toted by 487 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 4: the tractor. And that's where where where Congressman Leo Ryan 488 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 4: was killed at that airstrip. You mentioned it's six miles 489 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 4: from the Jonestown settlement, And I was because as you 490 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 4: were telling me about Eckhart going in, and that's still 491 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 4: shocking to me, Joe. I can't quite get past being 492 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: mile two miles out and smelling death. I know, the 493 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 4: smell of death is a very specific smell, but because 494 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 4: of the amount that we heard of in terms of 495 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 4: the bodies decomposing, I thought there must have been days 496 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 4: and days. But the reality of the situation was when 497 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 4: Leo Ryan was murdered six miles away from Jonestown, they 498 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 4: had radio traffic going from the Jonestown Temple with Jim 499 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 4: Jones to the Port Kartuma where the airstrip was, and 500 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 4: then they had contact with Georgetown, which was two days 501 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 4: trek up the river, but that's where Jones's sun was, 502 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: and the other basketball players from Jonestown they were playing 503 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 4: in a tournament, and so there was already the word 504 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 4: had gone out that they had had this revolutionary suicide. 505 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 4: But because they had faked it before and people had 506 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: left the camp, you know, they call them deserters, those 507 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 4: who escaped the camp did not immediately believe it was real. 508 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 4: They were like, yeah, we've done this before, you know, 509 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 4: White Knights, and we've done that, and so they did 510 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: get people out there. 511 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: That's why I actually got there right away. 512 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 4: They had people there the next day, within twenty four hours, 513 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 4: people run site identifying it. But you had to get 514 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 4: everybody there to do the work. And as you mentioned, 515 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 4: it's not like it is now. And I didn't think 516 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 4: about it, Joe. I wondered, what would happen going into 517 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 4: some nine hundred people are dead and we're not talking 518 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 4: about We're not talking about the army, We're not talking 519 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 4: about a military action where a lot was going on. 520 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: These are civilians that took their own lives. 521 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: You know, so that everybody understands. The actual capital is Georgetown, 522 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: and weren't there. I think I heard you mentioned that 523 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: there were suicides there as well. 524 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 4: There were The Temple had an office in Georgetown staffed 525 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 4: by Sharon Amos, and because they did a lot of 526 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 4: work with the government anyway, Sharon Amos was a longtime 527 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 4: Jones loyalist. In the night of the November eighteenth, she 528 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 4: got a two way communication from Jonestown telling them telling 529 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: her to take revenge on the Temple's enemies and then 530 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 4: commit revolutionary suicide. Now, Sharon name has had three children, 531 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 4: a twenty one year old name Leanne, a eleven year 532 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 4: old name Christa, and a ten year old son named Martin. 533 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 4: When she gets this message from Jonestown to commit revolutionary suicide, 534 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 4: she escorts all three of her children into a bathroom 535 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 4: and then uses a knife to kill Christa and Martin, 536 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: but when she tries to slice her own throat, she 537 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 4: has trouble, and her twenty one year old daughter, Leanne, 538 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 4: actually helped Sharon Amos got her own throat when she 539 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 4: was deadly and killed herself. There were three individuals that 540 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 4: were shipped out of Jonestown at the time the mass 541 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 4: suicide took place. They were the sons of Jim Jones, 542 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 4: Jim Junior, Stephen and Tim. Those three young men actually 543 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 4: discovered the bodies of Sharon Amas and her children. That 544 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 4: was the shocking end in Georgetown. 545 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: You know, it's hard really to fathom this, you know, 546 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: and look, I mean, look, you and I think we 547 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: can both agree that that people are creatures of free will. 548 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: You know, you're you're going to do what you're going 549 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: to do. You know you're going to be responsible for 550 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: the choices you ultimately make. But you know, you had 551 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: said something that was kind of really penetrating. 552 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: A little a little while ago. 553 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 2: You're thinking about these kids, you know, the kids. You know, 554 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: kids are not exercising free will. You know, we're not 555 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: going to go into a developmental lecture here about children 556 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: and these decisions of accountability and those sorts of things. 557 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: But when you begin to think about these little kids 558 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 2: that are there and they're being subjected to all of this, 559 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: they're being held against their will. And then you have 560 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 2: individuals the political class in America that you know will 561 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: blindly support this, and a lot of this would Jones, 562 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: I think goes back to the money that was throughout 563 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: his life, Dave, throughout his life that was handed out. 564 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 2: And of course the one thing, you know, we were 565 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 2: talking about flies flies earlier. The one thing politicians are 566 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: attracted to, just like flies. 567 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: Is money. 568 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: You put the scent of money in the air and 569 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: they'll be attracted to it, and they'll say anything that 570 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 2: you want them to say. They're willing to look the 571 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: other way. I think about go ahead. 572 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 4: The part still affects me and affected me when this happened. 573 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 4: Of being a man of faith, I was troubled by 574 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 4: what took place because it was positioned as a man 575 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 4: of the cloth led people astray using the Bible not 576 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 4: the truth. And I encourage you to look into that. 577 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 4: But it does happen, Joe, there are wolves in sheep's clothing. 578 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 4: And I think that's what all I can tell you 579 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 4: is that I'm a Christian and Jesus did not say 580 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 4: follow my followers, He said follow me. And if you 581 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 4: just consider that, I think of that with the Helbop 582 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 4: comment people, you know, I think of that every time 583 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 4: we have David Koresh at Waco. I think of those 584 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 4: types of scenarios where people put their trust in a 585 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 4: human being that they shouldn't be trusting. You can't trust man, 586 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 4: don't trust him you And that's what bothers me to 587 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 4: this day. 588 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:49,959 Speaker 3: It hurts my heart. 589 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: Yeah it does. 590 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 2: And you think about all that's left behind. But here's 591 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 2: I think, probably thinking about this UH and thinking about 592 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: what what remains and going back to this Wanderlust company 593 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 2: that is talking about laying out laying out to this 594 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: location as a spot for dark tourism. Look, you know, 595 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: I look, I have to say, Okay, as you well know, 596 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 2: and I talked about it. We did an episode on 597 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: the catacombs in UH in France, and look, I can 598 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: church that up all I want to. Okay, I can say, 599 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: you know, I went I went to the catacombs in 600 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 2: France as an academic pursuit and I took photographs while 601 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 2: I was down there, and I'm going to show them 602 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 2: in my class. Matter of fact, this fall, I'll be 603 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: using those photographs to talk in my Clandestine Graves class, 604 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: to talk about uh, you know, depositing of human remains, 605 00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: skeletal remains. But let's face it, I was a tourists 606 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: in this world. That's that is a dark tourism sight. 607 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 2: The darkness that kind of fell over that landscape all 608 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: these decades ago. Now it it was really hard for 609 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: light to penetrate through that, I think, and still to 610 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 2: this day, you know, it still resonates with everyone. 611 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: Uh. 612 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 2: There are a lot of other sites around the world 613 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 2: day that people visit. 614 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: Uh. 615 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: You know, I and I wonder, I wonder many times, 616 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 2: you know, what what's the purpose of going there? Do 617 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 2: you know that the Wuhan Lab now is is a 618 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 2: stop for dark tourism. Now you've got Joan, Yeah, you've 619 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 2: got Chernobyl of Fukushima, Japan. 620 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 3: I didn't have Nuture Noble. 621 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: Yeahchwitzschwitz is. 622 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 4: And you know, I think when we talked about that earlier, 623 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 4: whether it was when we started or before off mic, 624 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 4: I actually see some value in Auschwitz of it being 625 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 4: a marker. I don't look at that as a dark try. 626 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 4: I look at that as if we do not maintain 627 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 4: Auschwitz and tell people that have there are too many 628 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 4: Holocaust deniers, and there will come another strain of people 629 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 4: to say six million Jews didn't die. There are way 630 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 4: too many people that say that out loud, and I'm 631 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 4: thinking these you know, that's the value in keeping that. 632 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 4: But again, is there a true value in keeping the 633 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 4: dark tour to Jonestown? 634 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 3: I guess there is. 635 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I assume that there is. I don't know. 636 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: I think that it would have to be shaped and formed. 637 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 2: You know, I think about Waco for instance, right, and 638 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: you have to imagine, Dave that these many years since Waco, 639 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: there are people that will drive way out in the 640 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 2: country because it's not actually Waco that it's in. I mean, 641 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 2: it's way outside of town. You have to be purposed, 642 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 2: you know, you don't wind up there by accident, you 643 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. There are people that purpose to 644 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 2: go there, and you know, if offered the opportunity, would 645 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: I go and see it? 646 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: Maybe? 647 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: So I think that some of it is akin to 648 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 2: you know, you can't turn your way, your eyes away 649 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 2: from a car accident when you're stopped in traffic and 650 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 2: you know you're you're cursing the fact that you know 651 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 2: you've got a thirty minute delay. But when you get 652 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: to the point where the accident is and they're using 653 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 2: hoses to wash the blood and the debris off of 654 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 2: the hot top out there, I don't know about all 655 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: the rest of you. I'm still looking. I'm looking to 656 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 2: see what happened. I want to know. And even after 657 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: all these years, as many times as I brushed up 658 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 2: against debt and worn witness to it, it's still there. 659 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 2: Maybe it's just part of our humanity. I don't know, 660 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: but this is certainly a dark chapter. It's certainly a 661 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 2: dark chapter, and I think that it needs to be remembered. 662 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: It needs to be remembered in the sense that people 663 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: can be influenced by one individual to do horrific things. 664 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs.