WEBVTT - Part Two: Aqua Tofana: How to Kill Your Husband 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.800 Hello, and welcome to cool people, get cool stuff. My 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:04.960 name is Margaret Kiljoy. And I will not continue the 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.240 bit where I set up the expectation that I will 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.600 tell a new joke eating introduction, because if I do, 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.960 my life get so much worse. And I don't jokes. 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.079 So if you got joke, shine anyone, Shine is like 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.239 the funniest person right now to pay no pressure. I 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:24.520 don't know if I have a joke right now. A 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.639 lot of my jokes are like annoyingly visual. Um, Like 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.000 my go to is like the daddy is joke, not 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:37.560 daddy is you? Like daddy joke is very different than joke. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.239 But let me think. I mean I was inslated so 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.520 you can use irrigination. But basically, you put your hand 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.040 up as like a little cut, like you're making your 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.440 hand into a U shape, uh, and you ask people 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.159 what is that? What is this? And they're like, what 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.440 are you doing? You're a weirdo. And then you put 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.800 your upper forearm from the other arm on it and 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.440 you're like, it's a gun. Rack. I love that joke 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:10.160 because muscles are guns. I think it's funny because that's 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.119 the only gun that I approve of. Everybody who's there? 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:25.360 Beats me? Okay, Sophie, Okay, I got a knock knock joke. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:30.080 You start knock knock, who's there? I don't know this 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:35.560 is your That's the point of the joke. I'm like, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.640 I don't know, this is your bit Like you know, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.800 I got nothing. Okay. My guest today is Sharne Shrine. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.920 How are you doing today? I'm I'm good. I'm good. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.960 I actually I'm excited about the continuation of the story 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.600 because you've definitely got me intrigued. Uh and not much 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.880 can do that these days. So hell yeah, Cliffhangers for 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.680 the wind. Yes, Sophie is our producer. Hi, Sophie him Margaret, Hi, 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:07.520 I like this little trio. I like and Ian as 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.560 our editor. He's in charge of editing. Now the parts 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.639 where Sophie reveals the secret of the alchemist Stone and on. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:17.119 Women wrote out our theme music. So this is part 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.440 two of our two part series of women who murdered 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.720 their husbands or rather, um well, the people who provided 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.519 the poison. Good times were had by all except potentially 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:32.400 the husbands, which deserved it probably, so yeah, many of them. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.200 So we heard about the legend of Aquata fauna the 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.000 cosmetic poison made by one brilliant poison lady. So let's 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.200 figure out what we know of the truth. We will 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.080 start in pal Merrow, a city in southern Italy. Well 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.040 it's in Sicily, which is part of Spain at the time, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.440 where we meet two aspiring widows, so Fania Diadama and 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.080 Francesca Lisarda, And they were part of a thriving scene 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.160 in Italy which someone describing a similar community in Paris 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:04.280 referred to as the criminal magical underworld. Rome, for example, 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.280 at the time, had upwards of two d magical practitioners. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.200 We don't actually know how many Palmaro had, but you know, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.280 as a capital of the region, what qualifies is magical. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.680 We will tell you. Oh hell yeah, did I set 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.600 that up perfectly? Everyone who couldn't go to the proper 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.200 channels of like doctors with leeches, would go to magicians 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.960 on the street who would sell them ship that honestly 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.000 was probably about as effective as what the leech doctors 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.640 had on offer. There were witches, they were sorcerers, and 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:37.800 they were priests. The underworld included and possibly revolved around 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.560 these priests who had gone all in for evil ship 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.880 and lived double lives and lead black masses and this, okay, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:45.680 I'll get to what I do and don't believe in 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:50.720 this particular part. But these evil priests would live double lives, 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.040 lead black masses with naked women as the altar in 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.040 order to imbue different potions and saves, and ship with magic. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.320 And they chanted in a made up mystical language that 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.360 they all came up put together that was just Latin 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.760 and Greek and Hebrew while stuck together basically like all 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.560 the old timey languages they had access to. And they 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:13.360 weren't quite like Satanists. Their magic supposedly came from God, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.919 just in really weird ways. They would use blessed wands 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.400 to make potions in the shadow of a cross that 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.640 contained a fragment of the true Cross, while like leading 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.000 black masses with naked ladies as the altar. And I 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.600 wasn't sure I believed any of this ship, but there 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.200 are a ton of documents from the time attesting to 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.080 it and lots of confessions, although come on which unts 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:40.279 and inquisitions. I don't trust the confessions, but I think 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:46.040 some of the ship was actually real. I believe it. Yeah. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.600 To quote the historian Mike dash this quote just because 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.359 it's cool. Raids conducted by the police on the on 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.960 the Paris Underworld of the sixteen eighties uncovered quantities of 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.200 Grimore's incense wands and a rich ariety of ingredients used 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.360 in sexual magic, including breast milk and bags of powdered 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:09.600 menstrual blood. Um, how do you make the idea of powder? 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.600 I guess it's like you just dry it out and 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:18.440 crush it up. That's interesting. Well, I also we still 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.200 do know everybody, but the culture of which witchiness is 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.080 still alive and well, whether it comes to like crystals 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.919 or even like even meditation, in my opinion, can be 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:36.560 a form of that kind of energetic change so or 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.080 even like I don't know, it's just I think it's 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.360 very interesting how it's evolved, but it's still here very much, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:45.400 and like a lot of it is super legit and 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.120 a lot of it's not. And it's impossible to tell 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.520 who's a grifter and who's legit, just like back then, 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.159 because I think a lot of that ship that people 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.080 did probably fucking worked right, because you could go to 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.320 the Magical Underworld and get an abortion, and you could 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:00.440 get poison, and you get general he lane. You can 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.000 get fortunes and horoscopes, you can get love charms, you 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.040 could get cures for your bad breath. Whatever ailed you, 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.080 they take care of you, no questions asked. They would 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.719 sell stillborn fetuses to gamblers who used them as good 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:17.640 luck charms. WHOA. They also dealt with quote unwanted babies, 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.400 And I don't know whether that means abortion and fanticide 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.200 or selling children through underground adoption services or to slave traders. 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:26.839 I have no idea, Honestly, I kind of think it 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.440 was all of the above. Mhm. At the time. At 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.560 the same time, you have this magical not underworld that 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.480 was flourishing, right because science and magic are fucking at 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.000 the time, and Royalty was dumping tons of money on alchemists. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.080 Who the like most famous thing that alchemists were trying 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.800 to do was like transmute base metals into gold. They 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.839 were like, oh, well, turn lead into gold or whatever. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.200 But then they were also trying to cure disease and 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.839 live forever and improve crop yields and basically just like 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:58.880 do science and magic all put together, and well not 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.000 everyone involved in magic car alchemy were up to the 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.520 poison thing. These two women. They they might have done 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:06.920 some other ship. They probably sold charms and potions or whatever, 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:13.040 but they also sold poison. It's likely that Tofania was 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:17.800 who invented aquatfauna named after herself. It's also possible they 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.720 just sold people arsenic mhm. And I suspect that they 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.800 were breaking the law by working without their husband's permission um, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.920 which is just terrible. I bet their husbands and even 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.440 what they were doing, and they did. They reached their 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.360 main aspiration, which was to become widows. As best as 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.360 I could tell, they both off their husbands in order 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.200 to return to the status of free people. But it 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.440 didn't go well for these two particular women. First Francesca 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.800 and then too Fania went down for the magic trick 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.680 of turning their husbands into corpses. So the state pulled 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.560 the magic trick of turning them into corpses um by 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.640 a bit more gruesome of a method. So for all 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.600 of the like, oh, these like evil poisoners, like the 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.320 ship that happens to people is from the state is 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.560 so much worse than what these fucking poisoners are doing. 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:09.120 So Fanio was either hang, drawled, and quartered or one 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.800 account at the time says that she was sewing up 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.320 alive into a canvas sack and then thrown from the 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.640 roof of the bishop's palace into the street in front 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:23.280 of a large crowd. Oh that's brutal. Yeah, And I 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.680 think they pulled off being poisoners for a long time though, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.200 and maybe had a good run of it before they 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.520 got thrown from sacks from the bishop's roof, so maybe 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.559 it was all worth it mhm. And most everything focuses 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.240 on this other woman, Julia to Fauna, who was born 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:41.240 Julia Mangiardi and legend hazardus to Fania's daughter who learned 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.720 the trade from Mom and then after Mom's execution, took 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.400 off to Rome with some of the other students to 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.120 set up a poison shop in the big city. And 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.880 apparently it was a vaguely normal thing at the time 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.520 in Italy or Sicily or whatever too for a woman 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:58.800 to take her mother's first name as her own last name. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.560 But it's is just as likely that she took the 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.400 name to Fauna as a last name because she was 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.640 selling aquata Fauna. It also seems possible that she never 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.480 went by to Fauna, and this is the name that 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.520 folklore has abscribed to her and she has been her 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.640 whole life. Going by Mangiardi, there's no evidence that she 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.160 was to Fani's kid to Fani's kid, but there is 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:21.319 also no evidence that she wasn't whatever. It's also possible 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:27.240 she left her room before anyway, okay, whatever, but aquata fauna. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.760 The symptoms, according to a public notice that was put 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.960 out later once everyone got busted, were, to quote the 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.560 book Toxicology in the Middle Ages and Renaissance in a 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.720 chapter by Mike dash the symptoms were a burning pain 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.400 in the throat and stomach, vomiting, extreme thirst, and diarrhea, 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.280 all of which point to arsenic as the active ingredient 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.880 of the poison. That suggested antidote was lemon juice and vinegar, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.160 and to to continue the quote, aquata fauna was described 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.559 as clear and tasteless, suggesting that a key part of 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.959 the manufacturing process was masking the characterist the metallic taste 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.280 of arsenic. It was also considered to be a relatively 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.280 gentle poison which did not produce so much vomiting as 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.000 and hence aroused less suspicious than other preparations known at 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.599 the time, So basically all of the different poisons that 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.320 you were getting on the street that were any good 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.120 were just different concoctions of arsenic And it was just 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.760 like people figuring out different ways to like prepare the arsenic, right, 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.800 I mean, it is interesting. I wonder how they did 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.319 mask that taste, because it's impressive, I know, and I 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.800 think that there's some suspicion that they like did some 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.080 mask into the taste, but not actually as much as 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.160 people claim. It was not as perfect of a poison 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.959 as people claim. It was a very good poison, but 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.360 mostly it was added to wine because wine I was 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.000 going to say, like, if you had like a couple 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.680 drops to wine, it's probably not even traced or like 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.920 you can't taste it at all. And so Tafano wasn't alone. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.920 Her stepdaughter, who just happened to be a widow surprised 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.040 there named Girolamas Bara or Spawna, depending on which book 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.400 you read. Both books are people are very committed to 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.920 these different spellings, and they're very legitimate, seeming sources. Spara 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.320 sold to the aristocratic circles that she worked in as 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.680 a professional astrologer, right, so she would get hired to 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.280 predict the future and find missing objects and tell people 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.720 about themselves and ship. Well, Giovanna de Grandie sold to 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.160 working class women. Um mostly she was a beggar, and 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.120 she would hang out outside churches, because churches where women 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.720 could gather and talk. And there's all these like cartoons 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.440 at the time about how like when women talk at church, 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.719 it's the devil talking through them, which most of the 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:39.920 time is bullshit. But I guess sometimes they were inspiring 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.840 to kill all their husbands or whatever. So whatever every 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.800 joke they say as a layer of truth. But yeah, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.880 and they also sold other ship, right, They weren't just poisoners. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.079 They worked as cunning women or sometimes wise women or 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.880 divine arresses, and they were selling charms and you know, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.600 telling fortunes and ship. They started exporting poison to other 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.360 cities too, through women they trusted, and they had this 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:09.199 whole regional distribution network for husband killing poison. They found 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.280 their clients not by you'll be shocked to know this. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.079 They don't just like hang up a sign and that 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:14.960 like in a you know, just like go into an 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.280 alley and there's a sign it's like kill your husband 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.560 five dollars. They were fortune tellers and likely abortionists and 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.160 all of that, and so they would slowly learn who 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.720 they could trust, and they also learned who was stuck 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:33.160 in unhappy marriages. So it's like they're they're witches and 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:39.719 terror readers and fortune tellers and therapists, you know, absolutely, yeah, yeah, no, 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.040 I mean it's like it's a necessary thing for society 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.439 to have. Are these people who provide all of these services. 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.079 So to make their poison they needed arsenic and then 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.640 actually theoretically the best guesses about Aquata fauna is that 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:57.080 it had antinomy and lead and maybe mercuric chloride, which 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.280 was a treatment for venereal disease at the time, And 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.840 my guess is what killed um Pathri's husband, but I 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.520 don't know. Rather than Bella Donna, which is what was 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.559 like rumored to be in it because Belladonna is a 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.000 poison and you know, has a romantic sounding name, there 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:13.400 are other things that were rumored to be in it, 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.240 including many of which I've never heard of before, toad flax, 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.800 Spanish fly, snap dragon, penny wart, and the spittle of 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.000 mad men. The spittle of mad men, you know, like 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:26.920 imagine being like someone whose job it is to be 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:31.280 like the madman who sells his spittle. Yeah, like what 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.240 if you went to therapy and you're like feeling better 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.520 to be like, no, I gotta keep it up. My 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:40.599 job depends on this. Yeah. I also because I am 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.040 a dummy sometimes I wanted to make sure I want. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.040 I don't know exactly, or I didn't know before I 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.400 read it right now, Like where arsenic actually comes from? Okay, 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:54.520 I don't know, well it sounds like okay, inorganic arsenic compounds, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.240 they're found in soils, sediments, and groundwater. They either occur 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.200 naturally or as a result of mining or smelting and 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:07.920 industrial use of arsenic. Okay. Organic arsenic compounds are mainly 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.000 found also in fish and in shellfish. So I'm wondering, like, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:17.240 how did these women procure this? Is perfect? That is 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.160 literally the next sentence in the script. Oh hell, make see. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.960 It was worth the little flip fumble there, but like, yeah, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.040 it says arsenic is found in the natural environment, in 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.920 some abundance in the Earth's crust and in small quantities 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:37.080 and rock, soil, water, and air like that is that's wild? 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.040 I don't know. It's just a yeah, something to think about. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.560 So they needed arsenic, so they found a priest they 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.080 found one of these sort of fallen priests that was 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.920 talking about earlier in the Magical Underworld. His name was 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.720 Father giro Lama and his brother was an apothecary, and 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.880 so he hooked them up and this religious overlap continued. 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.440 They didn't always sell it as aqua to fauna, and 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.560 it's actually possible they never sold as aqua to fauna, 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.400 and that's just like the myth name that gets attached 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.600 to it. But they definitely sold it for a while 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.120 under the name Mana of St. Nicholas. And because when 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:15.800 I first started researching this, it would talk about how 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.120 sold as holy water or cosmetics, but the wacky thing 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.680 is that it was both at once. Speaking of skincare routines, 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.200 Mana of St. Nicholas was meant to be the oil 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.120 that dropped from St. Nicholas's bones where it was held 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.840 in a church. Or maybe they like pour the oil 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.040 over his bones, I'm not sure. And this holy oil 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.760 got sold in the street as not as poison, as 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.880 a as a kind of regular scam. So this holy oil, 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.400 when it wasn't just poison, the regular scam and it 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.480 was sold for the purpose of fighting acne and other 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.800 facial blemishes. Interesting, So this is what they labeled their 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.680 poison as because basically it's like the woman will have 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:03.000 all of the different you know, cosmetics on the shelf 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.360 and the man never touches any of it whatever, So 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.000 it's a safe place to put it. And so they 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.400 labeled it in these like vials that look very holy 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.040 and the St. Nicholas on them or whatever. But it's 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.920 just meant to be this like fucking you know, face 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:19.960 blemish cream oil whatever. Hey, facial oils are still used today. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.280 People stand by them, so it's like you're wrong too something. Again, 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.200 I don't use an oil, use a cream. But I 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.280 also but I'm like, I like my crow's feet. I 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.520 want everything else to stay youthful, but I like my 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.360 crows feet is like a sign of like you've lived 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.480 happy time. Yeah, totally get out and the sun enough 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.800 the forehead wrinkles. I would take some oil that dropped 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.840 off of St. Nicholas's bones. Maybe the blood of innocence, 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:52.400 especially billionaires, the blood of available. Yeah can we can? 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.920 So if you can, we be sponsored by the blood 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.440 of billionaires. Yeah? Why not? Hell? Yeah? Wow, she's the best. Yeah, 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.000 and uh it is. It is that time. It's that time. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.199 Well that you did that without even trying. Do you 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:13.440 have a husband, is he a great person? If he's 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.080 not a great person, are you living in a time 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.480 when divorce is not an option? Well, akwa toe fauna. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.600 Four drops administered to wine over the course of four months, 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.359 and you will be a widow. Here's some other ads. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.960 We are back and speaking of people who are mostly 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.679 in money, these women were mostly in it for the money, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:41.679 right as you know the whole thing which is like 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.160 people are like, oh, they're in it for the money. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:44.639 I'm like, oh, yeah, they're in it for the like 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:46.560 means by which they feed themselves and take care of 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.959 their families, like when a bunch of monsters, right, yeah, exactly, 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:52.920 because but I mean it's like freedom in a lot 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.000 of ways, like freedom from their husbands, but also like 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.840 money will give you freedom as well, and then a 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.760 lot of ways to write totally, it's the it's it's 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.639 a agency in a lot of ways. The problem is 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.879 that people have too much agency and other people too 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.560 little agency. But they did have some altruistic moments, and 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.000 in particular, they would give the poison out for free 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.760 to women who couldn't afford it, who really needed to 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.600 reach widowhood decades into her poisoner's career, at least twenty 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.320 one years into it, probably longer than that. Juliet Tefauna 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.720 died peacefully in her bed in sixteen fifty one. She 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.560 was like seventy years old. She didn't die from poison. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.320 She'd never been caught. She lived her whole fucking life 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.159 as fucking and she's Actually it's possible she invented to 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.520 Fauna and then like named it after her mentor you know, 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:44.240 I don't know. Um, and her friends, including possibly her stepdaughter, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:49.240 carried on without her, and I tried really hard. I 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.000 think that I think this is enough of a pop 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.200 culture reference that I'll get Sophie's attention and love, um, 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.520 which is why I make this podcast, UM free. Thanks. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.040 So I tried to find an earl killed by the 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.520 gang because of the country song about killion earl or 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.919 almost died. Yeah, thanks, um, because I want to make 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.359 the girls about to die joke. Yeah. Um. But I 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.320 didn't find an earl, but I did find a duke. 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.520 Francesco Cessi, the Duke of Seray, was thirty years older 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.040 than his wife when he suddenly died and she was 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:27.359 suddenly doing way better in life. But in sixteen fifty 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.119 eight the Poisoner's gang came to the attention of the authorities. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.560 And I, as the way it's always phrased, right, I 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.160 struggle to imagine that they kept it up for thirty 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.959 years unnoticed. I bet they were paying someone off. They 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.159 were protected by some kind of crime syndicate or just 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.080 I don't know the Catholic Church, which was basically the 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.639 biggest crime syndicate in Rome at the time, because why 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:53.919 would they protect them, though I presume money is my 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.359 main guess. Um. I presume that they were paying someone 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:02.359 off or power, right, yeah, giving them poison, I you know, 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.639 providing abortions for their mistresses. Like it's a good point 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.919 because the magical underworld was an open secret. And the 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.040 reason we know this is that the women who are 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.239 selling this poison ship, they like kept receipts, and they 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.919 like with like issue written promises of payment like and 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.240 I think it wasn't like payment for services rendered dead 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.679 husband or whatever. But they were like being very above 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.720 ground about how they handled a lot of their finances. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.760 But history doesn't like talking about whether or not they 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.040 were in the bed with Catholic Church or some other 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.760 crime syndicate or something. I don't know. I don't know exactly, 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.440 but it seemed like an open secret, and I doubt 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.640 that they were doing this for thirty years unnoticed. How 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.639 did they get caught? Multiple versions of the story you 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.280 will be shocked to know. One version of the story 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.639 is that so many people were fessing up and confessional 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.160 that the pope decided to do something about it, because 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.560 I guess the people, you know, the priests would like 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.920 turn around and tell the confessions to the pope or whatever. 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.800 I don't believe that one. It's also possible that de 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.080 grand Is, the lower class poisoner, got entrapped by a 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:10.760 woman working for the police who showed up with a a 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.520 sob story and desire to kill her husband. My my guess, 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.520 and this is I'm not a historian. I'm not allowed 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:20.919 to make whatever I'm making. This guess. I think they 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.000 went down because they killed that earl because he died 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.960 a year before the investigation into them started, right the duke. 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.320 They didn't kill an or only killed a duke. Interesting 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.199 And because when you're helping random people kill people like whatever, 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:35.640 But then when you when you get to a duke, 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.159 maybe it's a step too. Yeah, but I guess like 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.960 if you're if they're doing pro bono poison poison services, 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:49.600 then the duke client must have been a good Like 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.360 there was probably money and that how do you turn 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.040 that down? I know? And like maybe the duchess was like, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.280 it's really bad, right, and she's married to some thirty 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.119 year old older than her dude that like, yeah, I 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.280 mean whatever, maybe there's a happy no, you know what 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.399 I'm if you are forty and you date a seventy 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:12.240 year old, I don't care. Yeah. Anyway, Also around that time, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.919 they might have been stepping up their murders around the 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.399 time that they started to get caught, because there was 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.119 a plague going through room at the time, which was 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.880 a particularly good time for men to die unnoticed. So 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.919 either they were stepping up their murders or suspicion of 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.479 them being murderers was going through the roof because all 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:36.119 of these people were dying right. Either way, the poisoner's 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.200 ring goes down after at least thirty years, easily fifty years. 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.639 Five poisoners are put up on trial, mostly poor women. 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:45.520 Several of them are the are beggars. One of them 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.200 Maria Spinola. Her nickname is Griffola, which is a type 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:51.280