1 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Last month, legendary climate denier Fred Singer died at the 2 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: age of ninety five. We ran an obituary on the 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: Drilled News site that gets into some of the things 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: that Singer accomplished in his lifetime. Some people think you 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: should only say nice things about people when they die. 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: I don't think that serves anyone really, and it's important 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: to understand the real damage Singer did in his life. 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: So I wanted to do this episode to look not 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: only at Singer's legacy, but also at what came before 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: him and what came after, sort of his place in 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: this legacy of denial, the people and the conditions that 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: set Singer up for doing the work that he did, 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: and how he groomed the next generation. Unlike a lot 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: of the climate denial crowd, Singer was an actual scientist. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: He was an astrophysicist. He actually had quite an illustrious career. 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Early on, he designed some of the very first satellites 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: that gave us information about the Earth and the atmosphere. 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: But at a certain point, Singer's anti government ideology really 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: kicked in, especially around the Cold War and the aftermath 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: of the Cold War. He started to see any kind 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: of regulation as just a slippery slope to communism. And 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: he didn't just use his scientific background to muddy the 23 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: waters around climate science. He was an aggressive bully who 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: really went after climate scientists in a lot of ways. 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: Singer designed the modern climate denial movement. Here he is 26 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: on a San Diego news show, Good Morning San Diego, 27 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, with a terrible journalist Feedinam's softballs and 28 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: just lying through his teeth about what we knew then 29 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: on global warming, sounding quite reasonable even though he's saying 30 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: preposterous things. 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: Real busy with doctor Fred Singer this morning. He is 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: a noted atmosphere physicist. He's also one of the world's 33 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: chief skeptics of global warming, and here this morning to 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: tell us why. Good morning to you. And you're also 35 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: the founder of. 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: The weather satellite service for the US government. All right, 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 3: so I was the first director, first director. 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 4: So I know something about satellites and about observing the 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 4: atmosphere from space. 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: And you feel like a lot of this global warming 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: is simply hotwashed. 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 4: Well, let me put it this way. The real issue 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 4: is not global warming. The issue is what is the 44 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 4: cause of the warming? And we have to decide whether 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 4: it's mostly natural or mostly human caust. 46 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: And obviously natural is nothing is not much. 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 4: Relates, you know, and we have to find out which 48 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: is the important one. 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: Well, of course, the one side the argument on global 50 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: warming is the carbon dioxide levels and how much they're 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: going on and how man made it is CO two. 52 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 4: Certainly man made is so it's plausible humans could be 53 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 4: affecting the climate. They just have to look at the data. 54 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: That's what we do now. The satellites don't show any warming. 55 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: Satellites don't show warming health, they don't. 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 3: Show the warming on the solar stations. 57 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: What about the polar caps that are melting that people 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: keeps bringing. 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: That's the detail we're not concerned. 60 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 4: We're missed to concern about the tropics because that's where 61 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: all the weather comes from. 62 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: So today I've got on Dan Ziegert, who wrote the 63 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: book Civil Warriors about the tobacco industry lawsuits in the 64 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: nineties and his research for that book, Dan did extensive 65 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: research on John Hill. He shared some of that information 66 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: with us for the last season of Drilled. Hill was 67 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a big time pr guy who worked for tobacco and oil, 68 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: sometimes all at the same time, and he was really 69 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: a pioneer in the sort of tactics that Fred Singer 70 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: would go on to use as an investigator for the 71 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: Climate Investigation Center. Dan has also researched Singer quite a bit, 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: and he'll talk to us about the sort of lineage 73 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: between these two guys. Dan's also the one that figured 74 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: out that John Hill had effectively tricked journalist Edward R. 75 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: Murrow into giving a whole lot of credibility to tobacco 76 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: industry funded scientists. It actually delayed any kind of action 77 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: on smoking for many decades. 78 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 5: Dann. 79 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: We'll get into that story and how it reminds him 80 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: of what he's seen on the climate front. We've also 81 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: got on Connor Gibson, a researcher an investigator with Greenpeace 82 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: who has spent a ton of his time researching Fred 83 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: Singer and his impact on climate actions over the last 84 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: few years. Those conversations and more are coming up in 85 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: a minute after award from this episode's sponsor. I'm Amy Westerwald, 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: and this is Drilled. 87 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 5: This is Dan ze Gert. 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 6: I have been for most of my life investigative reporter, 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 6: and I wrote a book called Civil Warriors, a legal 90 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 6: siege on the tobacco industry, which was about the tobacco 91 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 6: industries pursuit by the plane of s lawyers who were 92 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 6: trying to hold it accountable in the mid nineties. 93 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 5: And I now. 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 6: Work on climate issues for the Climate Investigation Center, where 95 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 6: I am the senior investigator. 96 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: Right, Thanks, Dan, I'm hoping you can start with a 97 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: bit about John Hill and this amazing story you found 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: where he convinced one of the best generals out there, 99 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: Edward R. Mureau, to promote tobacco funded scientists. 100 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 6: All right, So when I was researching my book, a 101 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 6: bunch of documents were released by actually by Congressman that 102 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 6: dealt with Hilen Knowlton's original building of the denial machine 103 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 6: that became so well known, which started in nineteen fifty four. 104 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 6: And as as I looked into that, it became clear 105 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 6: that there were sort of peaks and valleys and mountains 106 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 6: of public concern about this. And of course, once the 107 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 6: original study that was covered in Edward R. Murrow's report 108 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 6: on see it now, the two part report, which was 109 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 6: the famous study of mice that had been painted with 110 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 6: cigarette tar and developed cancers. When and then Murrow became 111 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 6: interested in this and decided that he wanted to do 112 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 6: a report on it because everyone else, of course, was 113 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 6: covering it, and the industry had gone out way out 114 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,119 Speaker 6: on a limb and said that it was not only 115 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 6: going to be vigilant, but if it found something that 116 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 6: was in cigarettes that caused cancer, that would, you know, 117 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,119 Speaker 6: it would halt stop everything and take very dramatic action 118 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 6: and make sure that it was removed. So that was 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 6: the standard that they had set themselves. 120 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 5: But the thing was that. 121 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 6: When Murrow went out and did it, it went out. 122 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 6: And actually he had very little to do with finding 123 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 6: He himself, who was probably the pre eminent figure at 124 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 6: that point in television journalism, very little to do with 125 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 6: actually picking the people who were interviewed. The scientists who 126 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 6: were interviewed were mostly picked by Fred Frienley, who was 127 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 6: his producer and friendly went out and found a crop 128 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 6: of people on both sides, and the people he found 129 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 6: who were up holding the tobacco position were extremely convincing, 130 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 6: not only because at that point they had been well 131 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 6: drilled and what to say, and they had their own 132 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 6: ideas anyway that were divergent, but these were eminent people. 133 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 5: These were Elmer Hasse. 134 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 6: Who was the president of the American Medical Association. 135 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 5: It was W. C. Hooper, who was an. 136 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 6: Important figure at the National Cancer Institute. It was doctor 137 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 6: Paul Coten, who was an environmental cancer specialist out in 138 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 6: Los Angeles. And all of these guys were in one 139 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 6: way or another compromised by the industry. They had taken there, 140 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 6: either they were already on the payroll, or in the 141 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 6: case of Coton, were actually members of the Tobacco Industry 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 6: Research Council, which was this front group they had set 143 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 6: up Killan Knowlton, the public relations agency, particularly John Hill, 144 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,239 Speaker 6: who was directly involved and also the head of the TURK. 145 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 6: The Tobacco Industry Research Council, which was later called the 146 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 6: Council on Tobacco Research was clever switch Yes, or CTR 147 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 6: as we like to call it. CTR was doctor Clarence 148 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 6: cook Little, who was the scientific director of TURK and 149 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 6: was the had been the head of the Jackson Hole 150 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 6: Memorial Lab in Maine. The thing was was that if 151 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 6: you looked a little deeper, and they also had Henry Greene, 152 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 6: who was an eminent pathologist Yale Medical Center. But if 153 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 6: you looked a little deeper, you found was every single 154 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 6: one of these guys had essentially either been bought and 155 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 6: paid for and was on the staff or was about 156 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 6: to be, and those relationships were not disclosed fully. The 157 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 6: point here is that you know, these were eminent people, 158 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 6: and actually when Fred Frienley got a call from one 159 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 6: of the tobacco guys and they asked him, well, how 160 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 6: is it going, how's your program going with Murrow? And 161 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 6: he said, it's going pretty well. But if anything, I 162 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 6: think it's going to it's going to make the tobacco 163 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 6: industry look better than these scientists because your people are 164 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 6: better at explaining. They're more definite, and of course this 165 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 6: is what it's possible to be more definite when you 166 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 6: are really espousing a particular point of view and you 167 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 6: were paid mouthpiece. And that's the great advantage that these 168 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 6: guys have always had this particular wing of the scientific community. 169 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 6: So this set the sort of standard, I think for 170 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 6: disinformation campaigns in a sense that this particular industry, which 171 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 6: was so frightened for its for survival and which was 172 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 6: really relatively small, had gone way, way, way beyond the 173 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 6: call of duty in a sense to assemble a group 174 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 6: of scientists that was basically an almost impregnable citadel of 175 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 6: scientific denial. You know, their credentials were as good and 176 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 6: in some cases better than those that were you know, 177 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 6: on the actual side of looking into and investigating what 178 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 6: was causing cancer. The effectiveness though, was striking because after 179 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 6: Murrow's broadcast, and this is where you get into sort 180 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 6: of a really interesting comparison between tobacco and climate, but 181 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 6: within a year of tobacco of the Muraw broadcast, the 182 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 6: result of this whole campaign by tobacco was that it 183 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 6: was completely effective. They found as they looked, there is 184 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 6: a great deal of material on this in the tobacco files, 185 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 6: in the documents that are found that you can find 186 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 6: that were produced in the lawsuits where they go back 187 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 6: and they say. 188 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 5: There's very very little in the way of interest now 189 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 5: in smoking in health. 190 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 6: This is eighteen months after the tobacco broadcast by Murrow. 191 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 6: So it's amazing because this is a very small group 192 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 6: of people, a few scientists, some public relations public relations firm, 193 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 6: you know, and a handful of companies, and they completely 194 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 6: change the public dialogue about the most pressing health concern 195 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 6: probably of the twentieth century, which was smoking. So you 196 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 6: have to say that that's pretty good. 197 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 5: Bang for the buck. 198 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 6: What's really fascinating is you look at tobacco and you 199 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 6: look at how emminent some of their researchers were, and 200 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 6: you look at climate and you look and you see 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 6: that most of the people like Fred Singer, like mister 202 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 6: Mark Morano and some of these other people are either 203 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 6: not scientists at all or have absolutely no relevant scientific experience. 204 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 6: They're not climatologists, they haven't studied the science, the relevant science, 205 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 6: and yet the results are just as. 206 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 5: Good, you know. 207 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 6: And what explains it is is that it's not the 208 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 6: eminence or the even credibility facial credibility of the scientists, 209 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 6: it's the PR machine behind it. 210 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: It seems to me like part of it now is 211 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: that the PR guys have almost built their own entire 212 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: media eco system. So they'll put some kind of bullshit 213 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: thing up on a fake energy blog, then the Daily 214 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: Caller will pick it up as an item, and maybe 215 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: they'll advertise it in Axios or Politico or convince those 216 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: guys to include something in one of their newsletters, and 217 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: then then I'll get a Fox News shout out and boom, 218 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's a real news story. 219 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 6: Well I think so absolutely. I mean there's a fragmentation 220 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 6: of basically the American attention span or the American where 221 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 6: everyone is reading off into their own little corner of. 222 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 5: Where they are. 223 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 6: Ideologically, the market is much more segmented. We're not all 224 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 6: watching Walter Cronkite at seven o'clock on you know, every night, 225 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 6: where we get our. 226 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 5: News from one hundred different places. 227 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 6: So they've obviously been able to take advantage of that, 228 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 6: and of course because. 229 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 5: Of people like Hill who believe that. 230 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 6: Public relations was basically the answer for how companies could 231 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 6: successfully navigate this whole sphere of public acceptance. And by 232 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 6: building essentially the tools that are now used, people like 233 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 6: Hill and the other people that you've discussed on your 234 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 6: podcast have been able to perpetuate basically a larder of 235 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 6: different techniques that have become basically standard issue. You know, 236 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 6: anybody who works in corporate public affairs is very well 237 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 6: aware of the terminology that's used and how it's done, 238 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 6: and they just they roll out the same. 239 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 5: Tired myths all the time. You know. I think it's that. 240 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 6: I think it's also just a sort of breakdown of 241 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 6: what was what was once a kind of single channel 242 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 6: kind of attention that their industry or anybody was able 243 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 6: to get When Vietnam was on TV. It was a 244 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 6: transformative event because everybody was watching those same broadcasts and 245 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 6: it had a huge impact. And the same thing with 246 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 6: many other issues. Now it's not possible to have that 247 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 6: kind of lock on the public's attention. 248 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about Fred Singer. He died last 249 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: month at the age of ninety five. How does he 250 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: fit into the history of denial. 251 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 6: Singer emerges pretty quickly as a skeptic on ozone and 252 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 6: a number of other things in the late twentieth century, 253 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 6: eighties and nineties. But what's interesting about Singer is that 254 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 6: he's obviously an extremely bright, if not brilliant man. But 255 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 6: there's a turn in his life at some point, and 256 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 6: it has seems to have to do with his anti 257 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 6: government leanings, which had been pronounced from the very beginning, 258 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 6: which he just started attacking anything that really had the 259 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 6: anything in the public health realm that had the stamp 260 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 6: of approval by government in terms of going after cigarette smoking, 261 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 6: radon in basements and climate, and it didn't seem to matter. 262 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 6: He seemed to wear these hats interchangeably, even though he 263 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 6: really didn't have any specific expertise in any of these areas, 264 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 6: and he becomes kind of, I think you would say, 265 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 6: the quintessential model of a denier, you know, kind of 266 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 6: a personality, very smart, but completely uncredentialed and totally irresponsible 267 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 6: and acting essentially as his own agent and as an 268 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 6: agent for the industries that he was associated with. Because 269 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 6: he's a scientist and he understands scientific method, he's able 270 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 6: to pick out all the areas where there may be 271 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 6: some you know, less than unanimous sentiment about certain things. 272 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 6: But even when he's dealing with well accepted facts, you know, 273 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 6: he's clever enough to find, you know, a space for 274 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 6: him to kind of stick his hook in and be skeptical. 275 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 6: And the very fact that he is doing it gives him, 276 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 6: you know, gives the issue some sort of dignity because 277 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 6: of his background, even though he's it's irrelevant in many ways. 278 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 6: But and then you know, he's also a very aggressive person. 279 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 6: I mean, he he went after scientists, He really tortured people, 280 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 6: like the infinitous example of Roger Ravel as he lay dying, 281 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 6: you know, and and and Singer was a guy who 282 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 6: would go after people as people, as scientists, as individuals. 283 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 6: You know, and that's a hallmark of this group too. 284 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 6: I think that they are very very active in attacking 285 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 6: other scienceists, just as active as they are in promoting 286 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 6: you know, science of their own, which in fact they 287 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 6: don't have, of which in fact they have none. 288 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 5: I mean, that's the most interesting thing. 289 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 6: This particular group of quote unquote sciencests unlike the tobacco 290 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 6: people who were publishing peer reviewed articles, you know, these 291 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 6: people Cot and the other people we mentioned earlier, and 292 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 6: much much later than that, in the seventies and early eighties, 293 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 6: people like doctor Gary Huber was running the Harvard Project, 294 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 6: which was a completely tobacco funded project. What was an 295 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 6: eminent researcher was still publishing in the peer reviewed literature. 296 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 6: Well Mark Morano and molloy and Singer have never published, 297 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 6: and especially Singer, because he is a scientist, never published 298 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 6: climate climate related science in peer reviewed journals, never went 299 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 6: to legitimate scientific conferences and presented papers, not once you know, 300 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 6: that's a huge difference, very different. The fossil fuel companies 301 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 6: did not have to do some of the things that 302 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 6: the tobacco industry did, which actually infiltrated you know, many 303 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 6: of these For instance, professional organizations and scientific and medical 304 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 6: organizations with their own. 305 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 5: People spied on them, follow them around. 306 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 6: Some of that, of course, the industry, fossil fuel industry 307 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 6: has done, but not so much it would appear at 308 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 6: the micro level of actually, you know, being in every 309 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 6: single climate related scientific event. 310 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 5: If they have, we'll find out. 311 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 6: About it sooner or later, you know, I'm sure. But 312 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 6: the way it looks now is the effort required is 313 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 6: not as substantial, you know, to keep this mythology floating. 314 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 6: But Singer, I think Singer is extraordinary because of just 315 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 6: the number of different assignments he took on for all 316 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 6: sorts of clients. 317 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 5: And one of the things you find in the Tobacco 318 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 5: files is you. 319 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 6: Find the facts cover pages from Fred Singer going back 320 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 6: and forth to all sorts of organizations, to Phillip Morris, 321 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 6: the tobacco company that makes Marlboroughs, to Apco, which was 322 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 6: one of the big public relations firms, so most other companies, 323 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 6: and to all sorts of other organizations, promoting himself and 324 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 6: to fight on behalf of the tobacco companies, particularly in 325 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 6: the area of secondhand smoke, which is where he really. 326 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 5: Made Actually is I think his. 327 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 6: Mark if he made one critical issue in the early 328 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 6: and mid nineties. 329 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: Coming up, we're going to talk with Green Pieces Connor 330 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: Gibson about more of Singer's work on climate denial and 331 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: the lasting impact he's had on the climate issue. Connor 332 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: Gibson does research for Green Pieces Investigations team. He focuses 333 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: on polluting industries, their front groups, and pr operatives, particularly 334 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: focusing on the Koch Brothers. But he's spent the past 335 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: few months doing a deep dive on Fred Singer. 336 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 7: Fred Singer was denying environmental problems and solutions since before 337 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 7: I was born. I'm currently thirty one years old. I 338 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 7: was born in nineteen eighty eight, which is the same 339 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 7: year that James Hansen warre in Congress and the American 340 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 7: public that global climate change is indeed upon us and 341 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 7: that was caused by humans beyond the shadow of doubt, 342 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 7: which is something that Singer worked vigorously to deny while 343 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 7: that was happening in the years that followed. But even 344 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 7: before that, you know, Singer was already developing contrarian stances 345 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 7: to a variety of problems. Starting around the nineteen seventies. 346 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 7: He came into the Ronald Reagan administration and was an 347 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 7: obstructionist in a scientific process that was designed to find 348 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 7: solutions to acid rain. And the science was starting to 349 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 7: become very clear rain was caused by sulfur dioxide emissions 350 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 7: from a variety of human industrial activity like our driving, 351 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 7: and the solution was to cut sulfur dioxide emissions and 352 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 7: nitrous oxide emissions, and that would also reduce acid rain 353 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 7: and the problems that it caused. And of course Singer 354 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 7: was somebody who dismissed the forming science there and opposed 355 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 7: a variety of solutions to the point that even Reagan's 356 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 7: political appointees wouldn't agree with him. 357 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 8: And I'm getting all this, by the way, from the. 358 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 7: Excellent book Merchants of Doubt that was written by Naomi 359 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 7: Riski's and Eric Conway right, which goes into great detail here. 360 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 8: But you know, moved from. 361 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 7: Acid rain denial to denying the extent of the ozone 362 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 7: crisis that again was another It became a very clear 363 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 7: problem that was rooted in human activity. Scientists started understanding 364 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 7: that our refrigerant technology and the chemicals that are used 365 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 7: in it, like chlorofluorocarbon. 366 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 5: Were. 367 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 7: When vented into the atmosphere, creating a hole in our 368 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 7: ozone layer and exposing us to more dangerous levels of 369 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 7: ultra violet radiation from the sun. It was a problem 370 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 7: that was entirely avoidable, one that indeed we solved. Did 371 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 7: the Montreal Protocol, brought together governments from around the worlds 372 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 7: and we agreed as a world to start reducing chemicals 373 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 7: that were harmful to the ozone. You know, all over 374 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 7: the complaints of somebody like Fretz Singer, who dismissed the problem, 375 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 7: and you know, from any perspective, it's too expensive to fix. 376 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 7: It's not us that are causing it, it's actually natural. 377 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 7: This exact same motions that he's gone through with climate 378 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 7: change denial. So by the time I came into things, 379 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 7: I was brought to a climate denial conference convened by 380 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 7: the Heartland Institute in two thousand and nine in New 381 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 7: York City, and at the time that was with Greenpeace's 382 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 7: research director Kurt Davies, who is now the director of 383 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 7: the Climate Investigation Center, And that was the first time 384 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 7: I interacted with people like Fred Singer. I don't remember 385 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 7: if I actually met Fred at that particular conference. You know, 386 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 7: the thing that struck me in two thousand and nine 387 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 7: was that was. There was actually a lot of people 388 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 7: at that conference. It was it was scary to see 389 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 7: how at least superficially robust the climate denial movement was 390 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 7: at that time. Just a year later, though, their numbers 391 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 7: diminished and have remained pretty low. Like they've never had 392 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 7: nearly as an impressive conference since then. It only takes 393 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 7: a small group of well coordinated cranks to keep obstruction alive. 394 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 8: And definitely all of these. 395 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 7: Folks are following the playbook that Fred Singer really helped innovate. 396 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 7: Even with Fred Singer being gone, you know, the danger 397 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 7: of the legacy that he's left behind is still completely present. 398 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 7: And you know, it's a parent right now, both in 399 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 7: terms of climate change, it's a parent in terms of 400 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 7: many of the same people who are downplaying the seriousness 401 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 7: of of the coronavirus epidemic. 402 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 9: From what you've read and what you've experienced, what exactly 403 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 9: was the sort of scientific cred that Singer had or 404 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 9: tried to attribute to himself as you know, sort of 405 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 9: an expert source on these things in the first place. 406 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 7: If you take a broad look at the cast of 407 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 7: characters in the climate denial movement, most of them are 408 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 7: not scientists. They don't actually have any credentials to hide. 409 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 10: They don't say like scientists political scientists like Myrony Bell. 410 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 7: Or or cranky lawyer Steve Alloy, like I'm sorry, why 411 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 7: were you relevant in this conversation? Like you're a tobacco 412 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 7: industry lawyer? Why are we listening to your opinion about 413 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 7: climate change? Why are we letting you help set up 414 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 7: our environmental protection agency? But you know we are we 415 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 7: are still in the upside down of the Trump era, 416 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 7: and we will see how society shakes out after that. 417 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 7: So the point being Fred Singer actually was a scientist. 418 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 7: There are so few climate change deniers who really had 419 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 7: scientific credentials. Fred's training wasn't in climatology or many of 420 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 7: the other fields that are key to our understanding of 421 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 7: climate change science, but he was closer than most. 422 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 8: You know, he was a rocket scientist. 423 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 7: He did have a solid reputation from his work for 424 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 7: the US government and the Cold War era in terms 425 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 7: of satellite technology. Satellite are obviously very important in terms 426 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 7: of our understanding of how the global climate works, and 427 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 7: so Fred was a much more powerful tool for the 428 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 7: fossil fuel industry to deny a problem just because of 429 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 7: the veneer of legitimacy that he could provide that none 430 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 7: of these other lawyers and pr Flax could even pretend 431 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 7: to have. And that is interesting because it clashes completely 432 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 7: with Fred's approach. Well, while Fretzinger was a credential physicist, 433 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 7: he wasn't really publishing research on climate change. In fact, 434 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 7: in the late part of his career, fretz Singer was 435 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 7: almost not publishing any research at all. Rather, he would 436 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 7: take the research that actual climate scientists were publishing and 437 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 7: just contort it blatantly, misrepresenting the conclusions of people like 438 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 7: doctor James Hanson. For instance, James Hanson showed a graph 439 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 7: to Congress in his nineteen eighty eight testimony that really 440 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 7: sounded the alarm on global warming. He had a graph 441 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 7: that he was using in order to show members of 442 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 7: Congress that this was not a natural problem. The climate 443 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 7: change that we are talking about is rooted in human activity, 444 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 7: our industrial use of fossil fuels, and he had a 445 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 7: graph showing this is not natural, this is a human 446 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 7: driven phenomenon. Fretzinger took that same exact graph, flipped it around, 447 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 7: and used it to make the claim that global warming 448 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 7: was an entirely natural phenomenon, which is a false assertion 449 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 7: not backed by the data. But it was something he 450 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 7: knew that once he put it out there. It takes 451 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 7: so much more time an effort to point out how 452 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 7: a lie works than it does to just tell the 453 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 7: lie in the first place. And so he was a 454 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 7: master of steering a conversation with a long string of 455 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 7: myths and inaccurate misrepresentation of science. And while you honest 456 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 7: scientists were chasing him, you know, he was always one 457 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 7: step ahead and trying to set the conversation in a 458 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 7: place that's favorable for deniers and for industry to begin with. 459 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 10: Do you think that the part of fred Singer's efficacy 460 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 10: was sort of this combination of him really knowing enough 461 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 10: about science to spin things and then at the same 462 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 10: time the public being relatively illiterate when it comes to 463 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 10: understanding the language of science. 464 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 7: There is no doubt that fred Singer preyed upon the 465 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 7: public's general scientific illiteracy. 466 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 8: Yeah, and I say this with no. 467 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 10: No, it's not disparaging. It's just like there's a whole 468 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 10: other language that they use in a whole lot of 469 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 10: way that they present information that people don't know, yeah, yeah. 470 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 8: The scientific process is complicated. 471 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 7: You have to be interested and dedicated in that not 472 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 7: to mention, have access to the educational opportunities needed to 473 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 7: get a foothold in that world. And you know, the 474 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 7: scientific method is inherently skeptical. It's the beauty of it 475 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 7: is that you're approaching things from the ultimate point of skepticism. 476 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 7: Everything needs to be proven from scratch, built upon the 477 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 7: findings of others, and it's never considered fully settled in 478 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 7: the science community. No issue is we do get to 479 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 7: a point where the evidence is so overwhelming that it's foolish, 480 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 7: too weight in terms of making certain decisions as a society. 481 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 7: And you know, with climate change, you could argue that 482 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 7: we turned that corner in nineteen ninety five. I'm kind 483 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 7: of following the lead of a scientist like Michael Mann, 484 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 7: one of the more celebrated and more attacked climate change 485 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 7: scientists out there because of the beautiful simplicity of his 486 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 7: hockey stick curve graph. Michael Mann wrote a book about 487 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 7: his experiences being attacked by industry funded deniers, and he 488 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 7: said that in nineteen ninety five that was kind of. 489 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 8: The turning point. 490 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 7: You couldn't reasonably deny the fact the problem, and you 491 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 7: couldn't reasonably deny the causes of climate change at that point. 492 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 8: And yet we see fred Singer. 493 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 7: You know, that's in some ways he was just getting 494 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 7: going at that point, and he continued to the vehemently 495 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 7: deny what scientists were were increasingly understanding, including the more 496 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 7: conservative scientists out there, the folks who weren't as familiar 497 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 7: with the recons search. By the time the second Assessment 498 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 7: Report from the IPCC came out, that was when we 499 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 7: really knew, Okay, there's it's irresponsible to wait at this point. 500 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 7: We do have to talk about how to solve this problem, 501 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 7: how to slow it down. Mm hm, So I'm the 502 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 7: entering now, Amy, I'm kind of longing. 503 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 8: No, that's okay. 504 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 10: What would you say our sort of fred Singer's biggest 505 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 10: contributions to I guess climate denial, you know, either ideas 506 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 10: of his or specific you know, initiatives that he kind 507 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 10: of spearheaded, or specific campaigns that he you know, was 508 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 10: sort of the mastermind of. 509 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 7: I think fred Singer was really adept at understanding the 510 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 7: power and balance that could be exploited when it comes 511 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 7: to the public. So general lack of understanding about science 512 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 7: versus political outcomes. So he knew how to capitalize on 513 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 7: on innocent ignorance in a way that that would allow 514 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 7: them to control the conversation just among the audiences that mattered. 515 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 7: They don't have to worry about convincing a majority of people, 516 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 7: They don't have to worry about convincing a majority of politicians. 517 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 7: They just need a few isolated champions with their hands 518 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 7: on the right levers in order to obstruct a meaningful 519 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 7: policy outcome when it comes to climate change. So Fred Singer, 520 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 7: you know, as one of the few credentialed scientists willing 521 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 7: to deny climate change, he was obviously a unique and 522 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 7: particularly powerful champion in terms of that. But what he 523 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 7: taught others has been replicated, and it's not just the 524 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 7: very few other scientists who deny this problem, but the 525 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 7: people who are outside of the realm of science that 526 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 7: have replicated his tactics. And in that realm, I'm talking 527 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 7: more about the public relation and the intimidation tactics. So 528 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 7: you know, when I look at Fritz Singer's career, he 529 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 7: didn't have data that he was producing on his own 530 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 7: to refute the overwhelming body of fact that was developing 531 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 7: about climate change and its root in fossil fuel burning. 532 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 7: Rather than using that data, he would misrepresent the work. 533 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 8: Of other people. 534 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 7: He would flip it completely on its head, make somebody 535 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 7: else check the references, and at that point the conversation 536 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 7: has already evolved, you know, to a political outcome. 537 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 8: You know that it. 538 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 7: Doesn't matter what the facts are at that point, it's 539 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 7: somebody else is trying to figure out what lie was 540 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 7: told when. But policy makers are already going, oh, there 541 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 7: seems to be a lot of skepticism here. There seems 542 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 7: to be a lack of consensus, and we don't want 543 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 7: to make a hasty political decision based on that, right, 544 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 7: and many non scientists replicated that as well. The other 545 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 7: thing they've done, though, and this has gotten worse over 546 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 7: the years, is to attack the people that do call 547 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 7: them out effectively, and fred Singer was fred Singer was 548 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 7: great at threatening his opponents with legal action and sometimes 549 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 7: even suing them. There's a very famous case where fred 550 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 7: Singer misrepresented the work of another scientist, Roger Ravel, pretending 551 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 7: to co author a scientific piece with him, and. 552 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 8: Turns out he didn't. 553 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 7: Somebody who called him out on it justin Lancaster, a 554 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 7: scientist in his own right was sued and brought to 555 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 7: court by Fred Singer. And in fact, the deposition from 556 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 7: this process taught us a lot about Fred Singer. Fred 557 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 7: had to admit some of the companies that were funding him. 558 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 7: We realized it's Exxon Mobil and Shell and companies that 559 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 7: are now part of Chevron Utility companies, the American Gas Association. 560 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 7: Pretty valuable information that came out of this, but also 561 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 7: relatively obscure. So while recent like myself are getting to 562 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 7: learn all these juicy tidbits about who's funding Fred Singer 563 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 7: and the lies that he's telling, the policy reality is 564 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 7: still you know, thirty years behind the science right, and 565 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 7: that's where somebody like Steven molloy or Myron email people 566 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 7: who are not scientists. You know, these tactics have been replicated. 567 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 7: These people still attack legitimate scientists. These people still threaten 568 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 7: to sue or outright sue actual climate scientists as a 569 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 7: way to intimidate them, tie up their resources, beat the 570 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 7: will out of them really to keep speaking out about 571 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 7: the problem. And so I'd really paved the way for 572 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 7: people like that to actually be very aggressive. 573 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 10: I don't expect that you found, you know, Fred Singer's 574 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 10: diary or anything. But the thing that I'm always really 575 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 10: interested in with these guys is like, you know, the 576 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 10: sort of ideological underpinnings, because I feel like, for like, 577 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 10: most people can't do this kind of stuff for decades 578 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 10: just because they're making really good money at it. There's 579 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 10: usually some sort of belief or you know, personality thing 580 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 10: at play there too. Is there anything that you've seen 581 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 10: on that front with Fred Singer? You know, what sort 582 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 10: of made him convince that this was like the thing 583 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 10: he should be spending his time on. 584 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 7: Absolutely, I agree with you. Most of these folks who 585 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 7: are paid to lie have to have some level of 586 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 7: personal ideological motivation in order to continue that beyond a 587 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 7: single contract. Yeah, Fred Singer was a Cold War era 588 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 7: conspiracy theorist. 589 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 8: Some of it fairly understandable. 590 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 7: You know, if you're working for the US government on 591 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 7: rocket science, which is what Fred was doing in his 592 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 7: early career, you've probably come out of that after decades 593 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 7: of talking about the possibility of averting nuclear warfare and 594 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 7: these sort of really heavy topics with a certain understandable 595 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 7: degree of paranoia. But Fred just went way overboard. And 596 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 7: that ideological conviction also just was boosted by his deep 597 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 7: seated flair for being a contrarian. So it wasn't just 598 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 7: about the ideology, it wasn't just about the money. It 599 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 7: was that Fred loved to argue, and he loved to 600 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 7: take the opposing position as somebody else and defend it 601 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 7: to the death. And there are many an awkward circumstance 602 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 7: where you can see him get cornered on that ABC 603 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 7: News in two thousand and eight did not make him 604 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 7: look that great. He just looked like a wacko. Really, 605 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 7: he's denying every problem they throw his way, and it 606 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 7: kind of just self illustrated that if I say yes, 607 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 7: Fred says. 608 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 8: No, says yes. 609 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 7: That's what he does. That's what he's always going to do. 610 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 7: And he found a way to make money doing that, 611 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 7: and it was a way that was consistent with his 612 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 7: distrust in government. 613 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 8: I will say the era that. 614 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 7: We're in, the thing that I'm noticing that is new, 615 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 7: it's not fun to notice. But one consequence of the 616 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 7: coronavirus interrupting all of our lives across the world is 617 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 7: these fake free market fundamentalists, the people who will hide 618 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 7: behind a supposed ideology of free markets as a way 619 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 7: to actually advance various corporate interests. Yeah, they are freaking 620 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 7: out right now because the public is going bring it on, 621 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 7: big government, send me a check, help me out. I'm 622 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 7: totally hurting right now. I'm losing my work. My family's 623 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 7: in trouble. I'm afraid to go to the grocery store 624 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 7: for basic goods because I'm afraid for the safety of 625 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 7: my you know, my child with asthma, or my grandparents elderly. 626 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 7: And they have no reasonable retort to it. And so 627 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 7: it's interesting that fred Singer passed away at a time 628 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 7: where his entire movement's ideology was being put to the 629 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 7: test in a way that it never has in a generation. Yeah, 630 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 7: and we will see what the outcome is there. But 631 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 7: from what I can tell, you know, these these climate 632 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 7: change deniers gone COVID deniers, screaming contrarian information into a 633 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 7: space that is just very very hard to counter the 634 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 7: reality of what people are living through and seeing through 635 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 7: their lived experience. You know, it might be that the 636 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 7: Fred Singer era is coming to an end. I think 637 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 7: it also depends on how long this crisis lasts and 638 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 7: how serious it gets and I truly I would rather 639 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 7: have the crisis be less impactful than have a good 640 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 7: excuse to say I told you so. 641 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 8: But unfortunately, I think we're going to get a little 642 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:52,919 Speaker 8: bit of both. 643 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. We'll post links in the 644 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: show notes, and we'll be back soon with another episode 645 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: looking at some of the ways that the COVID nineteen 646 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: pandemic is being used to roll back environmental regulations, fast 647 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: track permitting, all of that stuff. As always, you can 648 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: find more of our reporting at the Drilled News website 649 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: that's drillednews dot com. You can check out our policy 650 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: tracker there, and you can also check out various ways 651 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: to support us. We have a newsletter going now that 652 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: is weekly. I also put scoops in there pretty regularly. 653 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: We have a Patreon with the same kind of deal. 654 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: In both of those instances, you also get ad free 655 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: podcast episodes, and you will be getting the occasional bonus 656 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: podcast episode as well as a sneak peek of our 657 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: upcoming investigative series. Big thank you to our latest Patreon sponsors. 658 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: They are Zenia Kish, Leah Cory Hewitt, Bettie Fober, Alisha coeb, 659 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: Annie b d L, Larissa Akita, Aaron Moser, Ben Inskeep, 660 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: Rick Smith, Liz Ottison, James Lockheed, and Liz Charboneau. Your 661 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: support really helps us continue all of this reporting, pay 662 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: for production on the podcast, and all sorts of other things. 663 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: We really appreciate your help and thanks everyone for listening. 664 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.