WEBVTT - The Inner Lives of Men 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:17.919 Jen Kirkman. Hi, I'm Jen Kirkman, and welcome to another 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.840 episode of Anxiety Bites. Today. My guest is award winning 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:27.080 research psychologist Michael Addis. He wrote the book Invisible Men, 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:33.000 Men's Inner Lives and the Consequences of Silence. Now it's 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:38.159 it's you know, it's always weird for me. Uh two, 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.720 I want to talk about something like this because I 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:43.680 have to be honest. You know, I was the week 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.000 that I was reading this book in preparation for this interview. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.760 In my other life, in my life as someone who 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.120 well I I don't perform stand up comedy anymore, but 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.240 twenty five years as a stand up comedian. In my 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.279 other life, there was a lot going on in my 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:04.240 community where um, you know, a sexual offender who was 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.080 credibly accused and admitted to it want a Grammy for 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.280 his comedy album. And you know, he'd been exiled for 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.480 a little bit, but he came back and and anyone 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.160 speaking out about like wow, that really makes women feel 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.039 like they don't matter, and it does kick up a 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.399 lot of trauma and anxiety, and and uh, you know, 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.360 I live a life online, and I just am constantly 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.800 whenever I speak out about things, or speak up about things, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:33.840 or just even talk about sexism and inequality and the 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.880 nuance of any conversation about a sexual predator winning a Grammy. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.319 I'm not saying I don't even know what I'm I'm 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.160 not the argument I was good gets down to it 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.160 should they never work again? It's like I'm not even 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.119 thinking about that. I'm just thinking about how I feel, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.960 think about my feelings about the message it sends to 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.400 other people in comedy that aren't men. And so I 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.560 noticed this online a lot. Is like women are hawking 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.400 through their emotions, their feelings. Men are coming back wanting 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.760 to debate. It's all in their head, you know, and 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.480 and it's it's exhausting, frankly. But it was just one 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.680 of those weeks where I am living online, I'm speaking 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.240 out about something, and the harassment I'm getting is just 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:21.040 un real. And it's happened before. It's a regular part 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.160 of my life being a woman at all, but online 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.280 as well. And so here I am reading this book 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.560 about men and their inner lives and how, you know, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:34.520 because of the patriarchy, they they are stuck in these 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.960 ridiculous roles where they're you know, not supposed to show 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.920 emotion because everything is so sexist that it's like if 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.680 a man. Everything has been feminized to where like if 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.880 a man does this, it's, you know, it's not manly, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.520 and so he doesn't do it, and it and it. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.520 It was just interesting because I my empathy was at 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:55.840 a negative two on a scalpeoe to ten. I was 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.760 just like, don't just fix it already, everybody, because they're 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.760 making our lives impossible, you know. But it was great 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.640 to talk to Michael Addis because I mean, he's obviously 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.680 aware of the consequences that's in the title of his book, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.160 The Consequences of Silence. When men don't feel like they're 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.480 you know, given any room in society to talk about 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:22.960 their feelings, express emotion, it builds up and can cause 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:28.520 anxiety up to dot dot dot someone is going on 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.959 a shooting spright right, or someone is harming others, or 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.600 at the very nest is just causing disruptions in relationships, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.240 whether romantic or family or friendships, or maybe just you're 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.680 one of these guys online that just wants to debate 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.480 a woman which is talking about the nuance of a 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:53.040 feeling and these are consequences. And what we talked about 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:58.520 in this episode was that the scary part can be 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:04.880 when it's not like, oh, well, if only men could 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.560 talk about their feelings, there go back a step. They're 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.520 not even in their own minds and hearts and souls 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.200 recognizing a feeling. Like it's not that, oh, they have 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.960 all the same skills that that that women do and 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.240 you know, all kinds of different people, they're just not 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.360 able to verbalize. I mean, it's so much more than that. 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:31.200 It's like this just complete disservice that this kind of 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.520 patriarchal society has done to men. And that's you know 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.320 what I'm what was screaming about, is that feminism helps 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.120 men too, you know, break us all out of these 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:47.240 stupid binds that that we have because of as Michael, 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.360 and it reminds me of this episode the Big Pa, 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.920 the patriarchy. So if anyone listening is like I don't 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.200 want to hear about men, it trust me, you'll love 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.880 this episode. It'll be very healing for your soul. And 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.800 that's how m he be in his book is like, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.280 I know what you're thinking. Really like, men have everything 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.440 and now I've got to read a book about But 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.679 it was a really great conversation about you know, whose 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:12.720 problem this is, what can be done about it, and 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.560 what women can do to help. And I think you're 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.800 going to love his answer on that one. I will 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:26.080 not give it away anyway. So let's just introduce my 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.760 guest today, Michael at his PhD. Has published more than 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:35.000 seventy articles and books. Um. He is a recipient of 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.800 the American Psychological Association's David Shaka Award and the New 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.880 Researcher Award from the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies. 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.080 He's the author of Invisible Men, Men's Inner Lives and 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.520 the Consequences of Silence. He's a professor of psychology at 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:55.840 Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts. Again, so enjoy my conversation 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.400 and I'll see you on the other side with this 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:06.000 episode's take aways. All right, everyone, I'm here with Dr 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.719 Michael Addis, the author of Invisible Men, Men's Inner Lives 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.960 and the Consequences of Silence. And it's funny because I 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:19.359 was reading your book and I was so glad that 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.480 the way you started it is Invisible Men, Who are 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.920 you kidding. The title of this book may make you 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.000 wonder invisible men? Who are you kidding? Everywhere we look, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.760 we see men's lives on television and sports and politics, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:36.240 at work and at home. Men are anything but invisible. Um. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.040 But at the same time, men's most men's inner lives 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.200 remain hidden from others and often from themselves. But I'm 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.240 just glad you put it out there because I do think, 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.680 especially you know, being a woman, and I feel like 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:52.000 society lately, men seem to be, for lack of a 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.240 better word, going through some stuff. And so a lot 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.040 of times, and we'll talk about this more towards the 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.440 end of the episode, a lot of times my empathy 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.440 is really running thin, and it shouldn't because I have 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.720 anxiety disorders and I want to use this podcast to 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.080 help others. But I do like that you recognize and 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.080 are talking about you know, we're not saying that you know, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.400 men aren't out there, but but they're living two different 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.520 lives right there, living their public facing life and I 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.400 don't even mean like a celebrity, but does anyone, um, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.160 And then on the inside they're suffering from anxiety and 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.320 I know someone listening might go well, duh, that's everyone 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.280 with anxiety. But can you explain to us what's what's 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.080 so unique in men about about that? Well? I think 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:36.720 we're you know, encouraged from almost day one to have 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.040 this sort of public persona which lives up to images 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:42.840 of what it means to be a man, what it 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.200 means to be masculine. A lot of that is about 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:52.640 being powerful, impactful, stoic um, more powerful than women. Right. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:54.320 I mean, this is this is where I think you're 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.200 strained empathy comes from. Is that if you look around, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.720 it's like guys or everywhere saying, look at me, but 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.400 it's only part of me, right, It's the part that 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.480 is um that fits those societal ideals, and a lot 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.440 of times to achieve that, we have to sort of 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.760 squash and hold back the part that doesn't have a 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.320 frigging clue what's going on, and the part that's afraid 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:20.160 or anxious or depressed or were super stressed out because 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.560 saying I don't know what's going on and I'm struggling 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.880 is you know, essentially not very manly. So I think 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.640 that's where the duality comes from. So yeah, and you know, 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:32.600 the way I relate to this is I'll give you 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.960 an example. In my I had panicked disorder. I guess 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.959 I still do, but I'm not really panicking a lot. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.000 But where I used to panic all the time was airplanes, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.080 and sitting on the plane, I would compare and despair 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.320 and look around at other people. Oh well, none of 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.120 them are panicking. You know, that guy's reading a book, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.920 that one's you know, doing a crossword puzzle. What's wrong 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.680 with me? You know? Then shame and then shame makes 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.400 a panic horse all that kind of thing. And but 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.960 I only have those experiences such a rationally, right, So 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:06.200 I can't imagine walking around thinking like, for example, with 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.040 the men that do know they might have anxiety, and 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.600 we'll talk about the ones that don't, but thinking, um, well, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.559 I can't even let anyone know this, uh, you know, 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.559 because for me on the plane it would be I 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.320 would feel embarrassed or scared to let anyone know, and 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.240 so I would hold it in, which would make it worse. 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.079 But thank god, those were only situational things for one 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.560 to six hours of a time. But walking around the 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.360 world that way, what can that do to a person's 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.679 I don't know, personality, temperament, physical, does it kind of 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.840 hurt their body. I mean, what what does that do 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.439 over time to a guy that's stressful? You know? I 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.720 mean what you're talking about is is is the consequences 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.240 of guys hiding our true selves from each other. Right, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.199 So one of those rules from early on about manhood 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.920 is no matter what's going on inside, project externally like 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.160 everything's cool. You know, you see this really coming out 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.720 in um the adolescent and teen years. That's sort of 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.600 super unemotional teenage boy is almost like an icon. Now 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.280 nothing troubles him, and what happens is, you know, you 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.000 look at other guys. I remember this very clearly growing up, 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.440 and it still happens now is looking at other men 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.840 and thinking, well, he sure looks like he's got it 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.600 going on, you know, like nothing bothers him. And so 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.439 now I've got two issues, right, One is I'm struggling 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.560 on the inside if I'm if I'm dealing with panic 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.520 or anxiety or any sort of vulnerable emotion. And then 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.160 the second problem is it feels like there's something shameful 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.439 about that because look around me, and other guys aren't 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.640 talking about it, and they've got this long practiced kind 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.600 of cool pose, right that that indicates or at least 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.800 seems to indicate, everything's fine. And you know, and I 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.520 don't mean to position myself as above that either. I'm 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.720 sure there's a I've been told this by my students. 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.720 There's a lot of ways I'm capable of giving off 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.120 sort of everything's great, you know, nothing bothers me sort 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.720 of thing. And so, yeah, it's you know, it's not 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.160 exactly the Emperor's close, but it's close. It's close to that. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:17.120 So tell me then about like why you got into 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.360 this specific kind of work. I know, you talk in 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.760 your book about a friend of yours who's a PhD 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.920 who was studying borderline personality disorder in men, and then 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.680 you were saying that what she said is that, UM, 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:37.240 men with bp D seem brittle, but women come across 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.479 as fragile. And you were saying, you know, the differences 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.400 with men being more more brittle if it seems like 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.720 if you reached out and touch the metaphorically speaking, they 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.400 just might crack entirely. You know. Um, And unlike a 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.400 lot of anxiety people with things that disorders, men aren't 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.400 necessarily worried about going insane. It's sort of like, you know, 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.280 if I'm insane, then I maybe I won't even know it. 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.680 It's it's something different. I know that I just asked 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.199 you three questions, but can you talk about how I 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.520 got started in this and and what is that difference 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:09.160 between you know, women might appear fragile, evnxiety, men might 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.600 appear brittle. So yeah, I mean, I went to graduate 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.040 school in clinical psychology with the idea that I was 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:21.440 going to become a psychotherapist and help people, you know, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.200 through talk therapy. UM started doing a lot of research 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:30.240 on UM counseling approaches and one of the first things 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:32.720 I noticed was that the majority of people coming in 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.720 for therapy were women. The second thing I noticed was Wow, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.800 I'm the only guy in my graduate class here. And 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.600 the third thing I noticed was hot. Now that I'm 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.000 the only guy around, I'm starting to see some of 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.560 the things that I learned about being male that are 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:53.880 affecting how I'm doing in graduate school and how I'm 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.439 approaching this whole enterprise of you know, talking about emotions 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.680 and trying to help people that old on a coalesced um. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.880 When I came to Clark University in the in the 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.280 mid nineties, and I started getting interested in the question 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.440 of why men don't attend therapy as often as women. UM, 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.080 do a little bit a little bit of research and 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.000 see that not only do we not go to therapy 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.080 as much, but we don't go to the doctor as much, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.600 we don't take care of our health as much, we 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.640 don't disclose problems as much, you know, and the list 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.199 goes on, and it's really sort of a curious thing. 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.960 And so, you know, a lot of this led into 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:33.080 an interest in how men get taught to or to 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.959 not recognize problems in our lives, you know, all the 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.160 way back to like our things okay? Or not? Do 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.840 I even know myself that things are going on that 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.760 are difficult? You know, you mentioned to the frattle versus 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:52.040 frattle versus Bridgil, the fragile versus brittle. There's a new 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.360 diagnostic category. Um. That distinction actually came from one of 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.400 my graduate school advisors, Marshall Lenahan, who was the you know, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.280 she developed this therapy for borderline personality to sort of 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.920 dialectical behavior therapy, and she became world famous for helping people, 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.680 particularly people who were prone to self injury. And she 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.760 was not interested in gender in particular, but early on 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.679 in my career. I visited her one time UM and 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.480 she asked me what I was doing. I told her about, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.280 you know, being interested in men's mental health, and she said, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.080 you know, the guys that I see, the very few 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.640 of them with BPD, it's like they're they're like brittle 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.320 rather than fragile. And I asked her what that was about, 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.200 and she said, well, like the women present as fragile 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:39.720 in the sense that I have to be really careful 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.400 around them, but the guys are like they're brittle there. 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.040 They seem really well held together and if if you 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.120 poke a little bit, they're fine. But you get this 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.800 sense that if I poke a little bit too much, 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.960 they're just going to explode into shatters. And I thought, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.720 what what an amazing metaphor that is, because I can 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.440 relate to it personally. And it was true to my 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:06.400 experience doing therapy with men too, that I felt quite 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:11.280 a bit more resistance to the idea that you might 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.720 be suffering, the idea that you might be vulnerable. But 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.400 it also felt that as as tough as that resistance was, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:24.080 there was almost in some ways more raw vulnerability underneath it, 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.680 and in some ways that rawness is a byproduct of 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.960 having to expend so much energy holding yourself together because 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.520 of the fear of what would it mean if I 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.840 can't hold it together? You know, and we know what 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.240 it means is you're normal. You're a human being, right, 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.120 And I think it's important to for listeners to realize 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.880 too that when we talk about men as being brittle, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.560 it's not that they're actually brittle and going to completely 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.280 fall apart if they allow themselves to acknowledge what they're feeling. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.960 It's more that that that's the fear, right, and it's 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.800 this sense that I'm just going to explode. It's like 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.760 I've seen so many men come through our research studies 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:12.320 who will deny anxiety or depression, and you know, despite 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.040 scoring off the charts on these standardized kinds of questionnaires, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.400 and well, and I'll say, so, tell me about that. 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:24.120 So from your perspective, you're not anxious. Why is that? 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.840 And they'll say, well, I know I'm not anxious because 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.400 my wife has anxiety and she's a basket case. And 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.440 I'm still able to get up and go to work. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:34.960 So if I'm able to get up and go to work, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.840 that means I'm doing okay. And I'll say, what about 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.080 what's happening privately? What about you know? I get it, 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.160 you're you're doing really well and you're gutting it out 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.880 and that's great. And so I'm not suggesting that you 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.280 you know that you're crazy or that or anything like that, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.000 but in terms of like what it feels like on 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.320 the inside, what what's going on? You know in that sense, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.440 and you know, then it's like, if you can make 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.960 that connection, it's like, well, I'm just explode on the inside. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.520 You know. That's it's it's overwhelming, But I don't have anxiety. 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.760 How do you um what happens? I guess when a 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.160 man that you're talking to does realize it's anxiety, does 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.600 he does his worst fear come true and he thinks 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.960 he's weak? Or you know, like what what's the reaction? 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:21.879 Is there any relief or is it like does it 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.400 just turn into more problems? That's a great question. I mean, 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.720 I think I think that all depends upon the context, right, So, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.520 so ideally it turns into relief because the recognition that 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.080 you know that what I'm experiencing is not uncommon. There's 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.080 lots of other people, and importantly other men who have 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.840 experienced this, and you know, we don't have to look 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:49.720 far into fortunately these days, into professional athletes, politicians, famous, 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:51.840 you know, men with lots of I like to say, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.800 lots of masculinity in the bank. You know, these guys 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.879 too have struggled. So ideally there's relief. But as you 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.520 I think you pick up on. You know, language can 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.680 be really powerful, and a lot of us men grow 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.920 up with a sort of femophobia. You know, if something's 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.840 been labeled feminine, it is frankly fright If it's feminine, 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:20.840 it's frankly frightening. Um, you know. And so if anxiety 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:25.480 quote unquote strikes a guy as shameful and weak, then 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.960 his his initial reaction to it might be um, shame, fear, 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:35.040 you know, um self, self hatred, guilt, and so on. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.240 Hopefully they begin to understand, like I'm sure you've talked 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.800 about many times on your show, that anxieties and evolved 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.840 mechanism and all human beings, it's there for a reason, 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.720 and an anxiety disorder is really nothing more than a 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.200 sort of oversensitivity of a basic mechanism in the human 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:55.520 body and mind. And that's you know, there's nothing to 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.040 be ashamed of about that, and I was thinking, you know, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.600 it's we all know that caveman thing, and that gets 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.920 said a lot on this show. And you know, it's 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.119 a back from when we were blah blah blah and 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.600 we had this sense of danger was coming and humans, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.760 you know, we're able to you know, out we didn't. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.639 We had to use our brains to realize when danger 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.400 was coming. So is there a danger? And I don't 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.960 know if I don't know what what's going on out 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.600 there in the in the world of helping men who 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.679 have anxiety, But is there a temptation to and a 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.800 danger to, uh making anxiety masculine? You know the way 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:34.880 they make Like now we're going to have shower gel 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.959 for men and it's gonna smell like car grease, you know, Like, 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.040 is is that something at one point people were doing? 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.399 Are they still doing it? What do you? How do 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.400 you feel about that? I can't tell you how glad 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.719 I am that you brought that up, because I've done 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:52.720 a lot of these interviews and usually I have to 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.399 bring that up in other words that yeah, yeah, that 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.760 What you're talking about from my perspective, is this tendency 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.399 ultrually to man up mental health right. The idea is 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.000 if we if we make it macho to talk about 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.679 mental health, or macho to see a psychotherapist, like have 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.840 the courage to change, or like that old Viagra commercial 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.560 that I remember this going where this famous baseball player 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.240 was like, I take batting practice, I take pitching practice, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.320 I take viagra, step up to the plate and call 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:29.240 your doctor. It's like, I think I get the motivation 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.960 to do that. You know. It's marketing to a stereotype 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.840 of men. But it comes at a cost, you know, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.880 because even though it might be changing the idea of 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:44.160 what's manly into something more theoretically helpful or adaptive, it's 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.920 also continuing this idea that men must be manly. Right now, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.600 we just need to do the opposite. We need to 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:52.880 go from not talking about our feelings to talking about 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.359 our feelings. I think the bigger problem is the idea 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.920 that men need to be manly. A right, Let's just 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.520 let go of that a little bit and be like, 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.960 let men be human, you know, and then we'll see 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:14.320 the real improvements in functioning. I think we'll be right back. 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.960 So I looked back. There was this book, Uh do 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.119 you know the book Backlash by Susan Faludi quite well, Okay, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.399 I'm obsessed with it. I haven't read it since the nineties, 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.320 but stayed with me, and I almost got this chill 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.840 when I read it, thinking, oh God, I think she's right. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.359 I don't think things are going to get better. And 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.520 I think even though I'm in this, you know, it 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.960 was the mid nineties. You know, we get Hillary Clinton 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.560 first lady saying I'm not baking cookies. We've got Nirvana 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:48.159 is like the number one band and he's going on 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.440 Saturday Night Live and dresses and nail plashes, this kind 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:55.439 of moment of feminism and men were embracing their human 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.439 nous and not you know, there wasn't but there was. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:59.800 There was both things as I was going on in culture, 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:01.439 but I was in a little bubble, so I'm like, oh, 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.399 everything's great and it's getting better. And I read her 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.840 book that was like not blaming the women's movement, but saying, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.040 now that women are working, the men's roles are changing, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.160 and we're not doing anything to uh walk the men 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.720 through it, you know, and they are going to there's 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.480 going to be a backlash. And I knew she was right, 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.800 and I feel like I'm seeing it now. And what's 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.800 so odd is when I meet, um, younger men who 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.439 still fall into this, like you're talking about things have 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.200 to be manly or I just keep thinking, when is 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:37.840 I thought just certain generation had to die off and 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:39.800 then we're done here, you know. So it's just interesting 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.000 to me, Like I could understand if your dad was like, 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.560 look at I was in you know, World War two, 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.600 and I didn't sit around talking about my feelings, so 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:53.320 shut up. But now we're so many generations from that, Um, 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.880 why is this still happening? Like where is this message 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:00.840 coming from? Because there's so many examples the opposite, but 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:05.359 it's really doesn't seem to have gotten better. Where's this 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:10.560 message coming from? Patriarchy? But what what I mean? But 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.199 that's what I mean is like, isn't the president of 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.359 patriarchy like dead? Now you know what I mean? Like 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.720