1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Friends Media. 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: You are. 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 3: Watch closely now you may want to mystify your friends. 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 3: After the spring is threaded through the straw, he bends 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 3: the straw and straightens the string. Next, he clips off 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 3: the peak of the straw and throws it away. Now 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 3: he puts the straws together and pulls the string through. Presto, 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 3: it's still in one piece. Believe it or not. 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: Not Listen closely now to today's episode, The Other of 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: a Magical Negro. 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 4: I'm Katie and I'm Eves. 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: Now, Katie, let's talk about the different kinds of magical 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: niggas or dare I say, melanated magicians, colored conjurer exhibit 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: a actually magical black folks or people who use things 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: like charms and spells as part of their religious and 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: spiritual practices. People who know divination, who are healers, mediums, psychics, 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: and things like gifted seers and dreamers. People who are say, 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: colleagues with the supernatural. 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 4: If you forget to come back from Madame's rone, you 21 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 4: and your family will be pushed for always and deternity. 22 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 4: And then there's the trope of the magical negro. You know, 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 4: the black character with some invaluable skill or gift, and 24 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 4: mind you, that gift doesn't usually benefit them. This brand 25 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 4: of magical negro uses their powers to help out the 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 4: main read white character in some grand way, often at 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: a high cost. Their magic is really just a plot 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 4: device used to move the story along and get the 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 4: leading character to point in their development. 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: Last, but not least, though, is the black person who 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: performs magic, the one who gets up on a stage 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: or in front of an audience, or on the street 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: or something like that and does acts that seem impossible. 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: There are people who study the craft of magic and 35 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: entertain crowds with harmless shows of mundane but still fascinating sorcery, 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: and that is who we will be talking about today, 37 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: Black magicians who work with the art of illusion. 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 4: All magicians are performing artists who use magic tricks to 39 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 4: wow their audiences. They create illusions making it look like 40 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 4: they cut a person in half. They use everyday objects 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 4: like cards and pens, and tactics like misdirection to get 42 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: people to fall for their sleight of hand. 43 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: And magicians even perform things like mentalism or the acts 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: where they make it look like they're reading people's minds 45 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: or telling the future by reading body language, or communicating 46 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: with their assistance with coded language, and they're sometimes escape artists, 47 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: finding ways to get out of sticky situations. They'll have 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: you holding your breath waiting to see how they're going 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: to survive getting out of the strait jacket that they're in, 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: removing the padlocks and the chains that they're bound by, 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: and then escaping the coffin that they're. 52 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 4: Trapped in wouldn't be me. But all these kinds of 53 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 4: acts were and still are part of the shows put 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 4: on by black magicians. And the earliest Black American magicians 55 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 4: were working in the nineteenth early twentieth century, so the 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 4: stories that they told and the work that they did 57 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 4: had different meaning than those of the white magicians at 58 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 4: that time. Let me ask you something, Eves, when, because 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: I know magicians are like you're really into magicians and 60 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 4: magic and all that good stuff, Like when did that, 61 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 4: I want to say obsession? When did that occur? Like 62 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 4: do you remember the moment you first saw a black 63 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 4: magician and you're like, that's my shit? 64 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: I don't know. 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: I think honestly, I have always really been into the supernatural, 66 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: the up hold, the weird, the offbeat, the odd, and 67 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: the strange, so and that list can go on. So 68 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: I feel like it was just a thing that was 69 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: imbued to me from the very beginning. And I am 70 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: just really fascinated by one performers in general, because you 71 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: get up there and you have to entertain audiences, you 72 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: have to keep them captivated over a certain amount of time. 73 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: And it's also something that I think is just. 74 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: Very enjoyable across time and across age and across culture, 75 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: and that's really fascinating to me. So I think there's 76 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: just so much possibility with magic, and I think to 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: see black people do it is just another instance of 78 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: seeing a black person do something that. 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: We may more often see white people do. 80 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: But also just there's so much power and joy and 81 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: light and darkness at the same time in magic. So 82 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly. I don't know if that answers 83 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: your question because I don't know exactly when it started, But. 84 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like it's something that's just always been 85 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 4: an interest to you. I feel like black people make 86 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 4: magic shows like so much more fun because you know, 87 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 4: we do not know how to act. 88 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: On the audience. 89 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, Yes, let's talk about that because we love 90 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: falling out of a chair laughing. 91 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 4: Ye, running away, yes, running away. See, I feel like 92 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 4: the black magician that stands out in my mind. I 93 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 4: do not know this man's name, but you know, back 94 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 4: in the day at Atlantic Station, there's always this black 95 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 4: man doing tricks with like coins and cards and stuff. 96 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 4: I would be fascinated because I'm like, bro, really put 97 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 4: that coin behind her ear? 98 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: Yes, and Katie, speaking of let's talk about your magic 99 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: skills because. 100 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: You have wowed me with a card trick before. 101 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, very much. So. I only know one, and 102 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 4: you know it was a little resty, but I was giddy, 103 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 4: y'all for real, you did. 104 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So everyone, let's travel back in time. Richard Potter 105 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: was born in Massachusetts in the late seventeen hundreds. He 106 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: was the son of a white man and an enslaved 107 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: woman named Dina or Dinah, and he was the first 108 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: black magician in the United States and maybe even the 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: first American born magician period. His goal probably wasn't to 110 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: make history in this way, though. He just wanted to perform, 111 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what he did. He started off as 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: an assistant to a Scottish man named John Ranny Fyi. 113 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: Black magicians often began their careers as assistants to white 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: ones in the late eighteen hundreds. In early nineteen hundreds, anyway, 115 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: Richard traveled Europe, the Caribbean, and the US, learning the 116 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: art of performance, and eventually he struck out on his 117 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: own in the States, becoming a successful ventriloquist and magician, 118 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: successful enough actually to buy a substantial amount of land, 119 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: start a farm on it, and hire folks to work 120 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: on it. When he and his wife Sally were away. 121 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 4: People love the show he put on. They cheered as 122 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 4: he stuck a sword down his throat, laughed when he 123 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 4: made an egg appear to jump from one hat to 124 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: the next, clapped when he ran hot iron over his 125 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 4: tongue and bent it with his feet. But he was 126 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: not just some magical, magical negro immune to racism because 127 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 4: he was an entertainer. There's a story, for instance, that 128 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 4: in Mobile, Alabama, Richard and Sally were kicked out of 129 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 4: a motel because white folks didn't want any black folks 130 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 4: staying there. Whether that specific story is true or not, 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 4: they were successful black people touring the US performing tricks 132 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: for large audiences. There are certainly stories we don't know 133 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 4: about it. 134 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: And his life story. It's definitely spellbinding pun intended. 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: But one of my. 136 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: Favorite parts about his work, Katie Well, at least what 137 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: I can say as someone who's never actually seen his 138 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: work in person, is the way that his shows were marketed. 139 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: If you look at some of the advertisements for his work, 140 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: which you can do online, you'll see a list of 141 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: magical acts and amusements along with the phrase quote an 142 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: evening brush to sweep away care or a medley to please. 143 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: Richard Potters shows were officially a call to escape, a 144 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: place where he could throw his voice as a ventriloquist 145 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: into someone or something else, and where others could find 146 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: joy in that escapism. It was a place that could 147 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: have been a flight of fancy, but for Richard, as 148 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: a pioneer in the field, it was a reality that 149 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: he shaped for himself, a place that was carefree because 150 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: in it he was able to conjure whatever his heart desired. 151 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 4: And there is something so freeing and powerful about that. 152 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 4: How black magicians created something out of nothing on and 153 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 4: off the stage. You know, they fashioned their own worlds 154 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 4: and their own rules and ensured their survival, even even 155 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 4: prosperity in the process. I mean, dude bought a whole farm. 156 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: Black magicians were even too powerful if you look through 157 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 4: the eyes of some people, even threatening because they had 158 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 4: the ability to full manipulate and charm. And I think 159 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 4: that goes into some of the stereotypes about black people 160 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 4: at that time or even even now, you know, like 161 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 4: they're tricksters and can't be trusted, and you know, like 162 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 4: the Slide of Hands was like, I really, I don't 163 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: really know what this negro is up to. But the 164 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 4: magicians had control over a world and a narrative that 165 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: they created, and they had magically gotten people of all 166 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: races to buy into it. I'm thinking at this time too, 167 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: the escapism is something that is interesting because these people are, 168 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 4: you know, not even several decades out of enslavement, right, Like, 169 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 4: they definitely have people that they knew personally that were 170 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 4: affected by slavery. So it's kind of like you think 171 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 4: of escaping now, it's kind of like, oh, I'm just 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 4: going to escape the drudgery of everyday life. I'm going 173 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 4: to be entertained for you know, a couple hours. But 174 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 4: I wonder what it was like back then to play 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,119 Speaker 4: with escape in that way. 176 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: Right, And I wonder if people would have even called 177 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: it escapism or if they would have used a different 178 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: word for it, because in that context, yes, escapism would 179 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: be such a different thing. And that's not to minimize 180 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: what we go through today, because it's not like we 181 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: still don't have our personal challenges and that really dramatic 182 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: things can happen in our everyday lives. But of course, 183 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: within that context of chattel slavery, it was something that 184 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: they weren't so far removed from, So yeah, it is 185 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about what escapism meant to them, 186 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: what it meant or what it felt like in an 187 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: embodied way to go into a place where you could 188 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: maybe step out of your everyday concerns and maybe tap 189 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: into a different world or a different space of imagination, 190 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: to feel a sense of freedom. 191 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 4: In a society that you know is hierarchical, segregated, all 192 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 4: these races come in together for a minute, an hour, 193 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 4: whatever the case may be. This black magician's in charge, 194 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 4: like they're creating the rules, they're creating the world that 195 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 4: everyone has to buy into for that brief moment in time. 196 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: I think it's like super subversive when you think about 197 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 4: what black magicians were able to do, especially during that 198 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 4: period of time. 199 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: So we've got a lot more blackety, black magic of 200 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: our sleeves before our next act. We're disappearing. 201 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 4: And we're back top tier magic eves. 202 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. 203 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: So the way that black people show up as magicians 204 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: changes over the years, as to be expected. Henry Brown, 205 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: who fled slavery in Virginia by traveling to Philly confined 206 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: in a cramped wooden box, turned his experience into a show. 207 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: He published a narrative about his escape, sold illustrations of 208 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: that escape, and toured with a panorama that depicted scenes 209 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: of enslaved people's lives. When the Fugitive Slave Act of 210 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty passed, it made the threat of Henry's return 211 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: to slavery ever more present, and he was nearly captured 212 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: that year in Providence, Rhode Island, but he evaded capture 213 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: and he took off to England. 214 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 4: In England, he used performance to tell the story of 215 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 4: his escape. He even put together another panorama about the 216 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 4: Indian Mutiny of eighteen fifty seven and uprising against British rule. 217 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 4: The message that he communicated over and over in these 218 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 4: performances was in anti slavery and anti colonial resistance. The 219 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: stories he told as a writer, as an artist, as 220 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: a showman all oflifted the power of subversion and resurrection. 221 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: And after spending years overseas, Henry returned to the States 222 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: post Emancipation Proclamation, post Civil War, and post Thirteenth Amendment 223 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: during the reconstruction years. By this point, he had started 224 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: to use more magic in his shows, but he continued 225 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: to use his platform to entertain and educate spectators. The 226 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: practice of escaping restraints was one that magicians have been 227 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: using to keep audiences on their toes for a while, 228 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: and Brown began to perform an act where he broke 229 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: free from a sack wrapped with a chain in the lock. 230 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 4: He did this trick called the Spirit Cabinet, where he 231 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 4: would be tied up and concealed, but would still be 232 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 4: able to play instruments. He burned cards and then made 233 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 4: them whole again. One ticket to a show described his 234 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 4: entertainment as magic's sleight of hand, mesmerism, and electro biology. 235 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 4: He called himself Professor h Box Brown and called one 236 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 4: of his magic programs the African Prince's drawing room entertainment. 237 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: But magic didn't seem like it was just a means 238 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: of escape to Brown. Henry Brown's work as a magician 239 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: and as a resistor were intertwined. Even as he upped 240 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,479 Speaker 1: the bar on the stage, magic that he performed relaying 241 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: the story of his enslavement and escape remained an important 242 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: part of his shows. He dreamed up and brought to 243 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: life a path to actual freedom that seemed impossible before 244 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: and on stage, he used magic to make the seemingly 245 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: impossible appear real. He was able to use magic to 246 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: communicate principles that he quite literally lived by, that what 247 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: is imagined can be made manifest, that we have the 248 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: power to make change, and that there is infinite possibility. 249 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: He could use the popular appeal of magic, with its 250 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: fancy illusions and all those elaborate ruses, to convince others 251 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: of what was possible. Escaping slavery was possible, Rising against 252 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: slavery was possible, Ending slavery was possible. So it made 253 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: sense that in the third act of his life, magic 254 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: was his actual livelihood. Magic had kept him alive, and 255 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: by using it to share his story and his ideals, 256 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: perhaps it could save the lives of so many others? 257 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 4: Did you know that other abolitionists had beef with Henry 258 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: Box Brown? 259 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: Whoy was that? 260 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 4: Because like slavery was still going on, because you know, 261 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 4: he had shipped himself, mailed himself out of slavery, but 262 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 4: slavery was still going on, right, And so he was 263 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: going around doing all these like shows and lectures about 264 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 4: exactly how he mailed himself to freedom. So they're like, 265 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 4: other people aren't going to be able to do this, 266 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: like chill out, like you're given all the secret sauce away. 267 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 4: So it's like, on one hand he was like, you know, 268 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 4: shining a light on this terrible institution, and I guess 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 4: like thumbing his nose kind of at the people that 270 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 4: he tricked. But on one hand he was like low ki 271 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 4: making so that other people could not do the same thing, 272 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 4: which you know, who knows how many people would try that, 273 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: because so many things can go wrong. You could literally 274 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 4: just like starve to death or like die from dehydration, 275 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: or be on your head too long, which I believe 276 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 4: is on his head for a while. Well he was 277 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: upside down for a while, right, So but people were like, dude, 278 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 4: be quiet for a second. 279 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: He was snitching on himself. 280 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: Basically, it's kind of like a magician telling all of 281 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: their tricks. Yeah, you know, magicians don't want other magicians 282 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: to tell the secrets to their magic either, because then 283 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: that is the magic lies. Also in you not knowing 284 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: how it happens, even if you know that it happened 285 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: some way, even if you know that it wasn't an 286 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: act of God that made this rabbit disappear, you know 287 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 1: that there's something behind it, but you don't know what 288 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: it was. 289 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, he was definitely breaking like the magician code of conduct. 290 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: So over the course of Brown's life, the US and 291 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 4: black folks in it had gone through a ton right, 292 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: The landscape of black performance changed a lot. By the 293 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 4: late eighteen hundreds, the popularity of menstrel shows, which often 294 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 4: featured magic acts, had peaked and waned. Vaudeville, a kind 295 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 4: of entertainment that included a variety of acts like comedy 296 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 4: and singing, was on the horizon, and a couple of 297 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 4: men who end up performing magic for a living were born. 298 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 4: These fellows were named John Hartford Armstrong and Benjamin Rucker. 299 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 4: Let's start with Benjamin Rucker, also known as Black Herman 300 00:17:58,400 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 4: so Black. 301 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Herman started out out peddling health tonics, fortune telling, and 302 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: mind reading, but once he started gaining a little bit 303 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: more traction, he began to throw more magic tricks in 304 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: the mix, like creating the illusion that his assistant was levitating. 305 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: His performance drew from Black spiritual traditions like root work 306 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: and one act. For instance, he claimed that his tonic 307 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: could drive the demon out of a possessed person, and 308 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: he would plant people in the audience to drink his 309 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: tonic and then suddenly be cured. He moved to Harlem eventually, 310 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: and he performed for large audiences at Liberty Hall, which 311 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: was the headquarters of the Kingston division of Marcus Garvey's 312 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: Universal Negro Improvement Association. There were plenty of black magicians 313 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: who made up stories about their own lives, carrying this 314 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: mystique around their professions into their actual personal history. Take 315 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: all of the black magicians that capitalized on people's obsession 316 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: with the so called East by pretending themselves to be 317 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: Indian or Hindu because that got them better career opportunities. 318 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 4: Okay, number one, I know a couple of people who 319 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 4: could use that health timeic to drive out the demon 320 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 4: okay on is that online number two. Black Hermon did 321 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: contribute to the mystery of his life, but you know, 322 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 4: in a different way. On tour in the thirties, he 323 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 4: performed this elaborate stunt where he would appear to bury 324 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 4: himself alive. He'd escape through a secret passage and return 325 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: to the grave days later, only to be dug up 326 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 4: again just in time for his stage performance. So when 327 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 4: he died, like Pharrell in nineteen thirty four, it was 328 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 4: kind of like the Boy who Cried Wolf, because people 329 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 4: thought that he was just playing around and he was 330 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 4: gonna come back alive again. 331 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were people who were like, wanted to go 332 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: see the body, and someone who charged to go see 333 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: his body because there was all of this a hoopla 334 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: around the fact that he had made a big deal 335 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: that I don't die, I can come back from the grave, 336 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: And he didn't come back to life, but he did 337 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: leave behind a legacy that was about preservation and about spectacle. 338 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: He had become this larger than life character whose persona 339 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: and stories preceded him. His myth making around his own 340 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: life and spiritual practices were really indicative of the ways 341 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: that black folks embellished stories and find joy and freedom 342 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: in refusing to reveal too much, keeping things close to 343 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: the body instead. 344 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 4: Blackerman could not be confined to others perceptions of him 345 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 4: or his blackness. He laughed in the face of stigmas 346 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: and stereotypes about black people with the spectacles that he 347 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: created around his tonics and escapes and cares. He was 348 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 4: kind of a double agent, a trickster. The playfulness and 349 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 4: mischief that he imbued and his performance gave his magic 350 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: a sense of unbridled thrill and pleasure. He denied respectability. 351 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 4: He toyed with what was taboo, challenged what was sacred 352 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 4: at a time when black folks were struggling to break 353 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 4: down barriers. 354 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: More than a snake oil salesman, Black Hermon recognized his 355 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: ability to wrestle with his own conflicts, his doubts, and 356 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: his hopes regarding his history and self perception through his performance. 357 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: Just because there may have been gaps in his knowledge 358 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: of tradition and lineage, did it mean that he had 359 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: to wallow in self hatred sunk in beneath this mountain 360 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: of ignorance and misery. He could come back from the 361 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: dead as many times as he wanted to. His magic 362 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: told black people that they could be whomever they wanted 363 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: to be, even with what was taken from us, that 364 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: we weren't bound to anybody's rules. 365 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 4: And I think that's the through line for a lot 366 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 4: of black magicians, especially the ones that you know are 367 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 4: catering to a black audience and do have that, you know, 368 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 4: working knowledge of those that came before them. 369 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I know this quote is used to death. 370 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: Child, It's used to death, but it really didn't make 371 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: me think of the Audre Lord quote. If I didn't 372 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other 373 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: people's fantasies for me and eaten alive. I am just 374 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: so fascinated by this kind of It feels like such 375 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: a large, wild and kind of chaotic life and persona 376 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: that he built. 377 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: I don't know why. I just imagined him going around. 378 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: Evil, laughing everywhere like he is, like you know, got 379 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: multiple sides to him and is just always experimenting, always open. 380 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: Just I just imagine him as this person who has 381 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: so much for life and interest and curiosity in questioning 382 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: things and how they worked and how people viewed him 383 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: and how he viewed himself. And how he viewed his history. 384 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 4: Do you think for him specifically, or even magicians in general, 385 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 4: you know how like when you tell in a lie 386 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 4: and then you start to believe the lie, or like 387 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 4: you get too like if the actor gets too deep 388 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 4: into character. Do you think that for him, he kind 389 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 4: of thought like, well, maybe I can come back to life, 390 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 4: Like do you think that in living that life, they're 391 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 4: like kind of fooling themselves, like I am actually magic, 392 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 4: Like I actually can do these things that I'm telling 393 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: the audience that I can do. 394 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: You know what. 395 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting question because I wouldn't want 396 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: to say that they do fall for it, because they 397 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: know that it's their profession, and so I don't want 398 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to make it seem like they are gullible, 399 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, or naive in any way. But I do 400 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: also think there's something that is is magical in itself 401 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: of convincing yourself that those things can be true, even 402 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: when you're the sole person as the magician who knows 403 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: how the tricks work. You see all the cogs, you 404 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: see the wheels moving, all of the things that are 405 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes. So there is something that 406 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: could be endearing about a magician actually falling in love 407 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: with the crafts so much that they start to believe 408 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: that it could actually happen, that it could actually be 409 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: some sort of supernatural magic rather than magic that happens 410 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: in the natural world. 411 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 4: Let's talk about the Armstrongs. There's John Harper Armstrong, who 412 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 4: is a magician who's performed at black churches and schools 413 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 4: on the East Coast in the US in the early 414 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 4: to mid nineteen hundreds, and he toured with his brother Joseph, 415 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 4: but Joseph eventually left family business, and so John's first 416 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 4: and second wives were also involved. So it makes sense 417 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 4: that John's daughter Ellen Armstrong ended up in the business too. 418 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 4: But once John died in nineteen thirty nine, she took over, 419 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 4: making her potentially the only black woman magician touring in 420 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 4: the US at the time. Chalk Talk was one of 421 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 4: her main acts, where she would draw cartoons on a 422 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 4: chalkboard and sketch pad and invite audience members to participate 423 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: in the act. 424 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: The Armstrongs did card tricks, mind reading, and sleight of 425 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: hand tricks, but they also included black history in their shows. 426 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: According to the book Conjured Times, Black Magicians in America. 427 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: John Armstrong included the story of Frederick Douglass's escape from 428 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 1: slavery in an act, and Ellen Armstrong did a version 429 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: of that same act featuring the boxer Joe Louis. Instead, 430 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the middle and working class black people 431 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: who went to their shows wanted to go to them 432 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: over the vaudeville shows because they were so educational. 433 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 4: The Armstrongs were intentionally uplifting black hissy story in black 434 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 4: spaces by continuing to include black history in their shows 435 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 4: and perform in black institutions. And Ellen emphasized that importance 436 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 4: of memory and passing out knowledge that she got from 437 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 4: her father, and we love Ellen for that. H Okay, 438 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: magic history lesson over. Should we return to the present? Yeah, 439 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: I think so, But the curtains haven't closed yet. The 440 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 4: magic continues after the break. 441 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: In our own personal disappearing and reappearing act, We're back 442 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: And Katie, you spoke with someone who is truly about 443 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: the magic life, the Cole Cardoza. 444 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 4: The coal is a magician. 445 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 5: I use magic as a space to allow audiences to 446 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 5: suspend disbelief and reimagine what's possible in the world that 447 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 5: we live in today. I definitely think that I'm a 448 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 5: non traditional magician. I mean, part of that is just 449 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 5: being a black beer woman on stage. That just happens 450 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 5: by default, so you know, it's not necessarily like an 451 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 5: intentional divergence from that. But yes, I think just inhabiting 452 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 5: this body and how people respond to it on stage 453 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 5: and how they respond to a magician who does not 454 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 5: look like the norm changes the dynamic of the space 455 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 5: to begin with. For me, it's important to name the 456 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 5: stories of black magicians that have come before us that 457 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 5: have oftentimes left out of the narrative of what it 458 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 5: means to be magical. Despite the fact that we see 459 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 5: a lot of cishette white men in the role of 460 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 5: a magician, what we understand is magic has been crafted 461 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 5: and influenced by a woman in gender expansive people and 462 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 5: people of color throughout history, and for me, as a 463 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 5: black quer woman, is important to name those stories of 464 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 5: black artists and particularly black women artists that have come 465 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 5: before in this space. So that's something that I do. 466 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 5: I talk a lot about the role of Ellen Armstrong 467 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 5: in her family in magic and incorporate some of the 468 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 5: tricks that she did on stage in my performance as well. 469 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 5: Because I think it's important that her story is not forgotten. 470 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 5: But we, you know, as black magicians, we are responsible 471 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 5: for a legacy of magic, and we're responsible for the 472 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 5: stories of our ancestors in this space, and I think 473 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 5: that there needs to be an accountability built into that. 474 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 5: You know, magic is not a passive art form and 475 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 5: by default is a conversation, and I think a conversation 476 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 5: that's really inherent in the Black community because it's the 477 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 5: call and response conversation that you're having that I think 478 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 5: that if you aren't familiar with black culture, like you 479 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 5: don't see that kind of relationship in magic, which is 480 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 5: why I think it resonates so much with Black people. 481 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 5: That in itself is a powerful part about this because 482 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 5: to be able to do a call and response conversation 483 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 5: with black people, when that's so inherent in our blood, 484 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 5: in our bones. It's the way that we advocated for 485 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 5: our freedom, quite literally demanded our freedom here in the US. 486 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 5: You have a really much more interesting conversation about magic 487 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 5: and what it means to suspend disbelief and imagine something 488 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 5: greater than I think that you do in you know, 489 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 5: and then outside of that context, outside of the context 490 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 5: of blackness. You know, from the beginning to the end 491 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 5: of an effect, you oftentimes have everybody's undivided attention, and 492 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 5: when you think about other forms of art, that's quite 493 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 5: rare to capture. I think one of the things that's 494 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 5: so powerful about black magicians throughout history it's when you know, 495 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 5: back in the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds is one 496 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 5: of the few places that black people were allowed to perform, 497 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 5: where they were especially allowed to perform for white audiences, 498 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 5: which is a really important part about Henry Box's Brown 499 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 5: story and the work that he was doing there. Part 500 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 5: of it is because he wanted to and part of 501 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 5: it's because he was called into that work right because 502 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 5: he used magic as a platform for advocating for the 503 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 5: end of slavery, but also is because it's the only 504 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 5: place he could. Magic became the way I mean him 505 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 5: being able to escape during when the Feud Do a 506 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 5: Slave Act was enacted and go to Europe like magic 507 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 5: was a way for him to be able to secure 508 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: his own freedom after he fought for it so desperately 509 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 5: on the Underground River. But think about the world that 510 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 5: we live in today and how rarely we are granted 511 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 5: the opportunity to hold space that way. 512 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 4: What do you think it is about magic that kind 513 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 4: of goes across that barrier. 514 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 5: I think hope is what makes us human. And so 515 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 5: when you introduce a conversation where people get the chance 516 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 5: to hope and imagine something great, oftentimes they're in not 517 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 5: I'm not talking about like the you know, the segregation 518 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 5: that prevents black people from being seen in magic and 519 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 5: all of that. We all know it's really difficult to 520 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 5: this day for black people to get the same stages. 521 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 5: But I'm talking about in that moment, right when we're 522 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 5: not talking about the structural stuff, but two people, when 523 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 5: you get to see a magic trick, oftentimes people are 524 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 5: drawn in to that end and they want to see 525 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 5: the end of that conversation and they want to see 526 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 5: the outcome. We walk through life always feeling like we 527 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 5: have to expect the worst, any kind of like in 528 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 5: uncertainty or hesitation, right, we bar ourselves up around it, 529 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 5: especially marginalized people navigating this world. Right, And so to 530 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 5: be able to allow yourself like, oh, this card, this flimsy, 531 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 5: little random piece of paper is going to move from 532 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 5: one place to the next or vanish and reappear I'm 533 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 5: down and I want to hold I want to see 534 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 5: that happen. 535 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: Y'all can keep up with Nicole and her tour dates 536 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: at black girl Magician dot com or at black Girl Magician. 537 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: On social Before we go, It's time for roll credits, 538 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: where we give credit to something or someone that's on 539 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 4: our hearts. This week, I'd like to give credit to houseplants. 540 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 4: My houseplants are growing very nicely, and my houseplants are 541 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 4: black house plants, and they know that, and so they 542 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 4: keep my air nice and clean inside my house. Thank you, houseplants. 543 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: How do they know they're black? How do you know 544 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: that they know they're black? 545 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 4: Because everything else in my house is black. So they 546 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 4: just they recognize like black recognized black. Period. 547 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: So this week I would like to give credit to 548 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: all of the people who are preserving and practicing and 549 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: passing along traditions of their own spiritual medicines and indigenous 550 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: traditions of healing. We talked a lot today about some 551 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: of the questionable practices of Black Hermon and the tonics 552 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: that he was giving people, But there are so many 553 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: people who are actually using our knowledge of herbal medicine 554 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: to create tonics that make people better, that make them 555 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: feel better, that make them heal in so many different ways, 556 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: and so I just want to give a shout out 557 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: to all of the people who have that knowledge and 558 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: are sharing it with others. We'll be back next week 559 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: with another episode. 560 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: Bye Zia. 561 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 562 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 563 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. 564 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: Follow us on. 565 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send us 566 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: an email at hello at on Theme dot show. For 567 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 568 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.