1 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: How does a nine year old girl seemingly disappear off 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: the face of the earth. How does that happen? How 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: do you not know what happened to your little girl? 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: That is the nightmare that Debbie Randall's parents live through. 5 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened when Debbie Randall, 6 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: just nine years old goes missing? I Nancy Grace, this 7 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Take a listen now to our friends 8 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: at w x I A eleven alive Jessica Ole January thirteenth, 9 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. At that time, Debbie Lynn's family lived 10 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: in an apartment complex on one side of the street, 11 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: and the laundromat where she was abducted sat on the other. 12 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: I think it would like fifty seven feet from her 13 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: front door to the laundromat. The fifty seven feet was old. 14 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: Debbie Lynn's kidnapper needed her mother found the box of 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: soap she tried to bring home scattered on the ground. 16 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: Detective Morris Knicks was a team when it happened. I 17 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: remember vividly. I came in the house, were on the news. 18 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: People were afraid, they were angry, and it was frightening 19 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: with me an all Star panel to break you down 20 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: and put it back together again. The detective who has 21 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: a roort to this case for so long, Detective Morris Knicks, 22 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: owner Knicks and Associates, also polygraph examiner, thirty eight years 23 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: in law enforcement. Guy Watkins, Member Cobb County District Attorney's 24 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: Cold Case Unit, now Gatekeeper Global at Gatekeeper Global slash 25 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: us dot com. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State 26 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 27 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out of Beverly Hills 28 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. But now to Cheryl McCollum, 29 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: Director and founder of the Coldcase Research Institute. I want 30 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: to start at the beginning. Cheryl, tell me how Debbie Randall, 31 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: just nine years old, goes missing Nancy. It was a 32 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: Thursday night, January thirteenth, nineteen seventy two. And Debbie, I mean, 33 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: she's adorable, She's freckle faced, little nine year old girls. 34 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: She loves her goals, she loves playing with her friends. 35 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: Her mom is not feeling well. So where stepfather? Says 36 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: me and Debill golcov Street into the laundry. Her brothers 37 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: stay home because they're gonna be with their mom and 38 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: they're watching their favorite shows, The Rifleman. So they go 39 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: literally fifty seven feet door to door and they start 40 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: doing the laundry. When it's finished, Debbie asked if she 41 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: can stay and play with these little girls whose mom 42 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: is washing clothes and holding laundry. He said, yes, but 43 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: be home by seven thirty, no problem. So they're playing 44 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: together and he leaves about seven thirty. She doesn't get home, 45 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: and her parents begin to worry about her, so they 46 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: go looking for her at the laundry map and they're 47 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: on the ground. They'd see the detergent that she was 48 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: carrying spilled in the ground next to a VW bug. 49 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: A bug not a van. Correct The reason I asked, 50 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: because if it's a bug, someone walking by and driving 51 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: by it might see what happened. If it's a van 52 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: and she's on the other side of the van, you 53 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: would it would be totally obscured for vision. But you're 54 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: saying the laundry detergent is found by a VW bug. Correct, corret, 55 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: but spilled all over the parking area. Okay, let's go 56 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: straight out to Detective Morris Nicks, who's thirty eight years 57 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: in law enforcement on the case. To Detective Nicks, thank 58 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Detective Nicks, I want to 59 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: analyze what we know so far about Debbie Randall's disappearance. 60 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: We know that Debbie Lynn Randall shoulder lying brown hair 61 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 1: that even she had it tied back in a yellow bow, 62 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: and she has big green eyes. She goes with her stepfather. 63 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: They go over to the laundry mat just fifty seven 64 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: feet from their apartment. She wants to play with the 65 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: little girls. I thought some of them had dolls, and 66 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: the dad says, yes, fine, but be home an X 67 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: number of minutes, and she agrees and she's never seen 68 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: alive again. Take me up from the beginning to that 69 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: point where we find the detergent strown all out in 70 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: the parking lot. Start at the beginning and take me 71 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: to the laundry detergent. Detective Knicks. Okay, we know that 72 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: Debbie stayed behind played with the dolls. Um When she 73 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: got ready to leave, she um took the box with her. 74 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: Hold on what who had the dolls? Debbie had doll? 75 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: Debbie had a doll. She brought a dog with her okay, 76 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: don't Yeah, their friend dogs. I don't know if she 77 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: had a dog with her. Okay. One of the one 78 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: thing people that I talked who said that that was 79 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: common they would meet there and play with their dolls. Um. 80 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: Once she left, she went around around the corner. She 81 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: come out the door, E gole around the corner, and 82 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: that's where she was abducted. Now I talked to one wall. 83 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: Explain to me, well, hold on, I want to hear 84 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: about the soap detergent. You're taking me up to the 85 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: point of the soap detergent. Why is that? Did her 86 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: dad leave her with soap detergent when she's supposed to 87 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: bring that home? Explain? I haven't ask him she specifically 88 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: left her with detergent. Someone told me that Debbie would 89 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: judge just what she did. She would gather what was 90 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: left and take it. I don't know if she had 91 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: the box, whether or if she picked it up inside 92 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: the lawn her myth Okay, you're cutting out on me, 93 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: Detective Nicks, and I really want to hear every single 94 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: word you say. It's my understanding. Not only did she 95 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: love to play with her dolls, she was the neighborhood 96 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: baseball team Queen, and she collected and stacked soap boxes. 97 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: She collected left over detergent and would gather it together 98 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: and take it home to her mother. Is that correct, 99 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Detective Nicks, That is correct, that developed the habit of 100 00:06:53,560 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: doing she collected the soap powder or when she left, 101 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: another little girl wanted to go with her, and her 102 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: older sister said, no, you're going to stay here and 103 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: help full clothes. So I asked her, I said, when 104 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: Debbie went around the corner, do you think she ran 105 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: into someone she knew or do you think someone just 106 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: happened to be there. She is convinced that Debbie ran 107 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: into someone that she knew, and he probably called her 108 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: over to the vehicle just one second before I go 109 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: any further. I've gotten a lot of emails and text 110 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: regarding the parents to doctor Bethany Marshall Psycho Alan's joining 111 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: me out of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. 112 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. The parents have taken a lot of grief 113 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: because they let her play with her friends. And I 114 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: would just want to remind everyone that this neighborhood had 115 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: practically zero crime and she was fifty seven feet away 116 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, guys were talking about a 117 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: nine year old little girl, Debbie Lanne Randall, who's fifty 118 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: seven feet away from her parents at a laundry mat 119 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: and she goes missing. For instance, in the book that 120 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: I am just finishing, Don't be a victim, I talk 121 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: about children going to playgrounds or ballparks and the parent 122 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: may go get hot dogs or corn dog or drinks 123 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: and then come back and their children are there playing. 124 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: That is basically it's tantamount to what happened here. It's 125 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: just fancy go ahead, you know. I Well, if a 126 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: predator wants to get a child, they will. It's what 127 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: we call a crime of opportunity. So they are going 128 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: to look for the one moment that the child is 129 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: temporarily out of eyesight. And we can't keep our children 130 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: in cages. You're right, this was just I think this was. 131 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: This laundromat was half a block from the family's apartment complex. 132 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: And remember she was playing with another little girl. That 133 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: little girl had parents there, a mother there, so that 134 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: implies that she was left in the supervision of other adults. 135 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: She wasn't just roaming the streets by herself that this 136 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: other little girl wasn't remember that, No, you remember Madeline mccam. 137 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that. Now. Those parents are 138 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: like at least one football field away. Their children were 139 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: asleep in a vacation rental. They were having dinner with 140 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: friends that evening, and they would go back and check 141 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: on Mattie McCann every twenty minutes. And the last time 142 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: they went back to check on them, the other children 143 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: were there and Mattie McCann was gone. And those parents 144 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: have taken so much h double l about that. But 145 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: to Joe Scott more Good, Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University, 146 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the scene where all the 147 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: laundry to church it was found strewn across the parking 148 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: lot where the VW bug was. What does that tell you? 149 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: Tells me there was a struggle. Yeah, yeah, potentially a struggle. 150 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: And let's also keep in mind this is one interesting 151 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: little fact that that I've kind of dug out and 152 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: it was just kind of curious to me. Immediately adjacent 153 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: to the strewn detergent the on the ground where you 154 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: meant you were talking about this VW bug. All right, 155 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: the things that keeps coming up over and over again, 156 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: is that there was a tiny handprint that was found 157 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: on the surface of this bug. It implies at least 158 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: that it's on the side of the bug, okay. And 159 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: the interesting thing about it is the position of the print. 160 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: The print is essentially with the hands facing downward. If 161 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: if the listeners will put their hands down by their 162 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: side and turn their palms facing backwards. This print was 163 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: inverted just like that and was found on the side 164 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: of the car. Now, I think my question as a 165 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: forensics guy, were they ever able to tie that print 166 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: back to this child's hand. All they're saying is is 167 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: that it was a small handprint and it was apparently 168 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: adjacent to the soap powder. And I think that's that's 169 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: significant because you know, we can only get into that position, Nancy, 170 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: if we're kind of backing up and bracing ourselves as 171 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: we back into a surface. Everybody's done this at some 172 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: point in time to kind of catch yourself or if 173 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: we're forced backwards. Okay, So that kind of goes along 174 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: with the potential for a struggle. And let me now 175 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: go to Guy Watkins. Remember Cobb County District Attorney's Cold 176 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: case Unit. Now at Gatekeeper Global LC guy Watkins. Was 177 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: there an attempt to match that palm print up to 178 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: Debbie Randall? Honestly, I do not remember any notation and 179 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: then the file that we had that there was to 180 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: have attempt. But I'm I'm looking right at that palm print. 181 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: What do you know, Marris Knicks, do we know if 182 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: the palm print was matched up to Debbie? It was not. 183 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: It was my understanding. Did they try to match it 184 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: and it wasn't a match, or was it never attempted. 185 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: It was my understanding that they simply discarded it on 186 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: the scene. Jess Goot Morgan, if you and I have 187 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: the palm print, that means it can still be matched. Yeah, 188 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: it's it's quite possible that you could match a palm 189 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: print if but this is the problem. If there was 190 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: a print, a full palm print taking of her at 191 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: the medical Examiner's office when the body was examined at 192 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: that point in tom most of the time when bodies 193 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: come into the emmy's office, they only do fingerprints most 194 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: of the time. Back then, Yeah, okay to Cheryl column, 195 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: hold on, jump in what about this palm print? Nay? 196 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: If it was discarded at the scene, the reason that 197 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: would have been happening is if you look at the VW. 198 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: If it's dusty or has pollen on it, you're not 199 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: going to get any friction ridge. I can't see it. 200 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: I can already see the ridges. No, no, I see 201 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: the ridges on the fingertips. To Cheryl, you gotta look 202 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: at this print, especially on the thumb. I mean, I 203 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: see a great print on the thumb. It's a fantastic print. 204 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: As far as finger pall, Detective Nick said it would 205 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: disguarded at the scene. I don't know why. Well, if 206 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: I've got it, somebody's got it. But you know what, 207 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: you know what, For years I heard defense attorneys argue 208 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: there's no fingerprints, therefore we don't have a case. But 209 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true. Take a listen to your cut eight. 210 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: This is me talking to a witness, Sandra Walker. Sandra, 211 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: I know it was a while back, but please put 212 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: your mind back to the evening Debbie disappeared. What did 213 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: you observe, Lady Mike gar her real they thought they 214 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: got hurt. There was like a playground that was behind 215 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: the laundromat, and also a place there where you would 216 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: go and get Line Morris to cut people's grass, and 217 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: there was a tree right there beside the laundromat where 218 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: there was no one deserted thing on the side. I've 219 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: seen this black pickup trup stop. The driver got out. 220 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: Lets this door open, let's the truck running. He ran. 221 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: He went over to Debby. He grabbed her and she 222 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: was kicking her feet and kicking, kicking a little hard 223 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: and screaming and yelling. And he had held her over 224 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: his shoulders, so she was screaming and kicking. He threw 225 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: her in the truck and then he almost ran over me. 226 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: So guys, you know, yes, I wish we had had 227 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: a match on that handprint of Debbie Randall leaning back 228 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: against that VW bug when she was kidnapped. But I 229 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: have heard to talk laundry detersient that she had collected 230 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: and she would take home in a laundry mat. People 231 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: don't use all their laundry detersient. She would gather it 232 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: up and take it home to her mother to save money. 233 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: She'd take the excess laundry detergent home. We have that 234 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: strung own all over the parking lot. Not only that, 235 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: we now have a witness that states she was taken 236 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: forcibly by a man in a black pickup. Now, she 237 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: is a child witness at the time. And let me 238 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: tell you something, in courts of law, very often child 239 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: witnesses are treated as less important than adult witnesses. It's 240 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: my experience just the opposite. I think children make much 241 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: better witnesses than adults do. But let's see what Sandra 242 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: Walker has to say about an idea of the kidnapper. 243 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: What did the truck look like? All I know is 244 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: it was a black truck because I was twelve years old, 245 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: But I can remember it like it was yesterday. I've 246 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: had nightmares about it through Ever. What did he look like? 247 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: Who was a white man? And I was maybe one 248 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: hundred and forty feet to one hundred and eighty feet 249 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: from him, so I couldn't tell you what he looked like, 250 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 1: but I could tell he was white. And do you 251 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: recall what he had on? He had a pants and shirt, 252 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: but I mean, I don't other than that. I just 253 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: looked long, long, long pants and a shirt. And I 254 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: remember it because, um, I looked at somebody that was 255 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: walking with me. I said, did you just say that? 256 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: And when I heard her screaming hell, and I said oh, 257 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: somebody has done got in trouble time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys. 258 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: A disappearance of a nine year old little girl goes unsolved. 259 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: Is there a chance to solve it now? Debbie Randall's 260 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: parents tortured over her disappo parents. The search was massive. 261 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: To Detective Maurice Nick has been on the case from 262 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: the get go. This little girl gets reported missing. Tell 263 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: me about the beginning of the search that Thursday night. 264 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: What happened? Well, Mary had to sent out people in 265 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: the neighborhood knocking on doors and trying to get information. 266 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: They did not get very much. At that point, they 267 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: started trying to organize and people quickly volunteered, with college students. 268 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: They had helicopters, boy scout troops. Who wait a minute, 269 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: so you got boy scout troops, helicopters, scores of volunteers 270 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: all out looking for Debbie Randall. Take a listen. Now, 271 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: after a massive search, what we know? This is true 272 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: crime chronicle Jessica Noel a Chili Rainy de Sixteen days 273 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: after she disappears, thousands in a search party combed through 274 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: a heavily wooded area. Four and a half hours into 275 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: their search, a man discovers drag marks dug into the 276 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: wet ground. Her body was discovered by Mike, Mike Mahon, 277 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and he was a student in Southern Tech and a 278 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: group of students had agreed to search and they were 279 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: that's the area that they were assigned to. And Mike 280 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: said that he just hung back from Vietnam, had seen 281 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: a lot of combat in Vietnam, and he said when 282 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: he went there, he noticed the appeared to be drag marks, 283 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: and so he followed the drag mark down there he 284 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: spotted Debby's body and he stopped. He didn't go all 285 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: the way down to the body, and that's how she 286 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: was found. You know what's interesting to Cheryl McCollum. Very 287 00:19:53,800 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: often the person that finds the body is immediately under suspicion. 288 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: Not true in this case to my understanding, because this 289 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: was someone that had been solicited and volunteered to search. Absolutely, 290 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: he was a war hero, he had just been home. 291 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: He's at the college, he volunteers to help, and he 292 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: has a reason to take that path. He does recognize 293 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: the drag marks, he'd seen it in Vietnam, and it 294 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: was about one hundred and fifty feet into the woods. 295 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: Nathy and again he didn't go any further. He didn't 296 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: disturb it at all. So you know, nothing that would 297 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: have belonged to him or would pinpoint him in any way, 298 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: would ever owned her. So he did everything right. Guys, 299 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: we are talking about the disappearance of Debbie Lynn Randol. 300 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: She's a third grader, a third grade girl. Take a 301 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: listen to our friend w XIA eleven alive, Jessica Knowles. 302 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: Her brother was at the orhand and up flyers if 303 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: you had seen it that she had come up missing. 304 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: And that's when I put two hundren together. And she 305 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: still carries the heartache of what happened that day. How 306 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: people think that you gotta let it go and I 307 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: can't when her little curl didn't the room she reserved 308 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: behind the way. Debbie Lynn was found sixteen days later 309 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: during a mass search of the woods. Was cold and rainy. 310 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: She was abducted in one area, attagged in another area, redressed, 311 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: and then her body was taken to even another area 312 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: on Johnson Ferry Road. LI say Debbie Lynn had been 313 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: found raped and suffocated, the killer likely using her own 314 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: coat to muffle her screams. Like take a listen to 315 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: more of what we learn about the crime scene from 316 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Jessica All. Her lifeless body is fully clothed, wearing a 317 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: long sleeved lavender dress with small yellow flowers and tiny 318 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: green leaves, and a dark blue hooded coat zipped all 319 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: the way up to her chin. She's wearing Bobby socks, 320 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: but her favorite lavender Christmas shoes are missing. She's been 321 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: suffocated with her own coat. Investigators believe the man covered 322 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: her face, possibly to muffle her screams. She's missing an 323 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: ear and has been violently raped. Dark brown hair is 324 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: found on her body and is tested. It's from a 325 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: white male, approximately eighteen to thirty years old and maybe 326 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: dark complexed. Good chance that possible. Debbie knew her. The 327 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: body is found, this little girl. You know what all that? 328 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: Detective Nicks. Tell you with me, Detective Morris Nis. Detective Nicks, 329 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: what happened to Debbie Randall? How was she killed? What 330 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: did she endure before her death? It's his almost indescribable 331 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: m Daby was taken to a place. She was assaulted 332 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: with a foreign object. She was Wait a minute, when 333 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: you say assaulted with a foreign object, don't talk to 334 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: me like a cop. That means she was raped with 335 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: something like a bottle or a can or something correct. 336 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: And one part of report it says they think it 337 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: may be a shock. Abjelber, I have no idea what 338 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: to say. That possibly a bottle. She was torn open, 339 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: she was bleeding profusely. At some point her attacker takes 340 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: a rag of cloth in search of the vaginal area. 341 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: We believe he did that because she was bleeding so badly, 342 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: and he knew that he was going to put her 343 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: back into his vehicle. And that's why I believe that 344 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: he had to move the body because where this as 345 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: salt occurred, he was for me or that location, and 346 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: it was a very isolated location. You would have had 347 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: to have known it was there. And once she gets 348 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: her back in the truck, he only takes her just 349 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: a very short ways down the road. I think either 350 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: one she was bleeding in his truck profusely or two 351 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: Jordan did no my prayers that she was. But he 352 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: stops the vehicles right down the street, takes her over 353 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: into the woods that pleasure it was wooded them. But 354 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: the pleasure now is where the Houston restaurant was on 355 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: Polas Burry Road. It was a horrific assault and he 356 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: leaves her there. I don't think that was planning. I 357 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: don't think Keith thought I'm gonna saulter her here and 358 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: take her right down the street. I think something all 359 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: of a sudden made him stop there. Otherwise he would 360 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: have gone down, perhaps to the river, but he stopped 361 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: just right down the street. I think he says, oh, 362 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: there's problem. So she's either leaving a lot of blood 363 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: in his truck or again, she wasn't deceased. The depravity 364 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: of this mind is something I've tried all these years 365 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 1: to wrap my head around. I just don't understand how 366 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: you do that. But I do know this to Guy Watkins, 367 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: member of Cobb County distric Attorney's Cold Case unit now 368 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: with Gatekeeper Global LLC, Guy, I do know that she 369 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: was alive for the horrific and brutal rape as Nick 370 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: just said, possibly with a shock absorber on this nine 371 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: year old third grader because of the profuse bleeding. If 372 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: she was dead at the time of the sex assault 373 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: in sodomy, she would not have bled so much. So 374 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: I know that she is alive and endured that what 375 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: with what was she asphyxiated? Guy Watkins. I believed that 376 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: she was affixed with her own dress. There were certainly 377 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: DNA samples that were taken from her clothing and from 378 00:26:43,160 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: her and also from the victim crime story. He's with 379 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Debbie Randall, a third 380 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: grader who goes missing from the laundry mat and after 381 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: a massive search involving college students, war vets, and boy scouts, 382 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: her body is found in a remote and isolated area. 383 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts joining us from Beverly Hills. 384 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: What does it say to you that she was then 385 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: redressed to a t and the outfit she had gotten 386 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: for Christmas. That's what she was wearing, minus the little 387 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: lavender shoe she had gotten for Christmas. Remember this is 388 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: in January, right. What does it tell you? Do you 389 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: remember Ted Bundy after he would rape and murder his victims, 390 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: he with them, bathe them, sometimes do their hair and 391 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: makeup and redress them. What does that mean? Well, I 392 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: would love to first address the shock absorber and the 393 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: bleeding for how he addressed her, If you don't mind, 394 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: I think it's important for the listeners to know that 395 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: there is more than one MMO when it comes to 396 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: child abduction. One is to possess and control the child 397 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: and to have sex with a child, but the other 398 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: is something called sadism, where you purposely inflict pain and 399 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: cruelty because the sexual satisfaction comes from the terror that 400 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: you're inflicting on the child. And usually with this we 401 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: see anal in general mutilation, we see burnmarks on the 402 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: child's body. If I heard correctly and ere was missing, 403 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm wondering how did that happen? I mean, 404 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: if the m was just playful sexual satisfaction and the 405 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: orientation is towards children, he would have had intercourse with 406 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: her and then killed her. So she couldn't ide him that. 407 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: In this case he wanted to torture her. Then he 408 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: the rests her, and I heard some report that he 409 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: put her underwear back on in a peculiar way, which 410 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: I would love to know more about. But I think 411 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: there is some strange thing that happens after somebody commits home. 412 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: If they temporarily humanize the body, you will often see, 413 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: like you once told a story of somebody drive you know, 414 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: dying in a driveway and the person who finds him 415 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: puts a pillow under his head. Or we see people 416 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: who have been disposed of in the forest, but they 417 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: have a blanket over them. And I think sometimes there's 418 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: a peculiar type of humanity that enters after the horrific crime. 419 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: To Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, founder of the Cold Case 420 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: Research Institute, way in on the crime saying, Cheryl, for me, 421 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty big into the woods is significant. Again, 422 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: he knew the area. There's no doubt in my mind 423 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: about that this is an organized killer. He had transportations, 424 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: he had the object for race, he had the location 425 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: for the thought, he had the abilities after the fact 426 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: to cover her face. This was planned. This is somebody 427 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: that was a predator that sat between a laundromat and 428 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: a playground. And if you think about any laundromat you've 429 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: ever seen, in the front is a bank lendon. So 430 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: he's able to watch those children in the laundromat just 431 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: as openly as he can watch the children in the playground. 432 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: And he waited, he waited for the perfect opportunity, and 433 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: sadly that happened. Let me ask you something, Cheryl McCollum, 434 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: We know that she had a white male's dark brown 435 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: hair or brown hair on her person. What about the 436 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: possibility even now to do a genome study. It's crazy 437 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: that you just mentioned that. Literally three days ago I 438 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: spoke with an expert that has developed a way to 439 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: get DNA from a rootless hair, and I cannot wait 440 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: talk to take the mix and share that information with 441 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: him in the person's phone number. We've had here before 442 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: on cold cases, but without the route, we were never 443 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: able to contract the DNA. It's possible now, So this 444 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: is a good opportunity to once again tell people sometimes 445 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: science catches up. You know. Um, explain just in a 446 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: nutshell very quickly to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what 447 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about when we say a genome study and 448 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: how significant that may be to this case. Oh well, 449 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: I think that what's going to be significant is if 450 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: they can apply what we know, perhaps like for instance, 451 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: with a golden State killer, where we can go back 452 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: and find DNA or partial DNA and track this back 453 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: through a familial line. I gotta tell you, Nancy, based 454 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: on what I have heard and what I've read, I 455 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: don't think this is this guy's first time. I Okay, 456 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: I agree with all of that, but my specific question 457 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: to you objection judge not responsive to the question. Let 458 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: me just tell you. I'll Q and A with myself 459 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: for a moment. Joe Scott the genome study, while it 460 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: cannot act as DNA deoxy ribony clake acid, what it 461 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: can do is basically give us a composite sketch of 462 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: the purp. We could possibly find out what color his 463 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: eyes are. Hit me, Cheryl, take Joe Scott Morgan to 464 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: school in a nutshell. They use phenotyping, and when they 465 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: get that phenotype, it will tell you complexion, hair color, 466 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: whether or not they had frestels, their race. It can 467 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: tell you, you you know, basically, this is what the killer 468 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: looked like. It will give you literally a complement. So, 469 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, now I want you to do what 470 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: you do best. Analyze the death scene, especially that missing 471 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: ear on a nine year oh girl. I mean, how 472 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: can I even say with a straight face a missing ear? 473 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: The little girl is rape possibly with a shock absorber. 474 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: The guy plugs a rag and this little girl, this 475 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: third grade girl's vagina so she'll stop bleeding on his truck, 476 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: then totally dresses her in her Christmas outfit and dumps 477 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: her body. That's the way you have to tell a jury. 478 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: Is it nice? Is it pretty? No, it's not. But 479 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: I want this guy in jail, So hit me, Joe Scott, 480 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: give me everything you got on the crime scene. Yeah, 481 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: it's ugly stuff and messy business. Nancy. Let's start with 482 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: the ear. The ear is significant to me because this 483 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: can go down two ways. Either this was done the 484 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: ear was removed, and I've had cases where ears have 485 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: literally been ripped off. If you've got an adult male 486 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: going up against a very young girl, that's possible. However, 487 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: I think what I want to know is was the 488 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: ear dissected off, did it have clean margins? Did the 489 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: individual actually use a sharp instrument to remove this ear? 490 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: And secondly, was it done anti mortem before death or 491 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: was it done post mortem? And thirdly did they ever 492 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: recover the ear? And this is important because we got 493 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: to tie this back with these shoes that she was 494 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: in love with. Because of all those serial cases, serial 495 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: homicide cases I've worked, there have been a certain group 496 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: of them that are trophy takers, and so this is 497 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: something that they could potentially hold onto. Now I have 498 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: to go back for a moment relative to this ear. 499 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the year. It was nineteen seventy two. 500 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: There were a lot of guys coming home from Vietnam. 501 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: My dad was one of them. Okay. One of the 502 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: things that you hear about and you see about from 503 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: Vietnam are something called ear necklaces. And these necklaces were 504 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: literally created, literally created from ears that were taken from 505 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: the enemy. And there are pictures. People can search this out. 506 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,919 Speaker 1: There are pictures of our troops in Vietnam wearing ear necklaces. 507 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: So in this particular point in time, I'm really wondering 508 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: if this individual had not seen these images before, or 509 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: were they a vet perhaps that had been traumatized by 510 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: the war. Now, may I interrupt champ in quickly? The 511 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: ear it was partially missing, and it was attributed to 512 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: wild animals because she had laided the wood for like 513 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 1: sixteen days. Okay, that is the possibility. Yep. What about 514 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: the attempt to obscure the body, Joe Scott, if you 515 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 1: could touch on that, well, you know, she's so far 516 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: off of the road. Just like Cheryl had mentioned, she 517 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: is essentially obscured. This individual would have known something about her, 518 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: but I think that what I want to know was 519 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: the body actually posed in any particular way. Was she, say, 520 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: for instance, spread eagle on the ground, was she faced up, 521 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: face down? Was her buttocks raised in the air or 522 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: her hips elevated in the air? Detective next up her 523 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: face down on her side? Unt dun't okay? What does 524 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: that mean to you, Joe Scott, Well, that would mean 525 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: that the individual had done this in a rather rapid, 526 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: rapid moment. Just as the detective said earlier. This gives 527 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: us an indication to this sudden, stark realization. This individual 528 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: comes to where she's bleeding out, he's got to get 529 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: rid of the body. Remember this is on what's called 530 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: powers Ferry Road. The river, the Chattahoochee River, which we 531 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: all know about because of Wayne Williams many years later, 532 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: would have been a prim dumping area. You know, all 533 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: the evidence would have been washed away. But he couldn't 534 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: quite make it there. He had to get her off 535 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: the truck. And if he leaves her in this kind 536 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: of what we call in medicine a left or right 537 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: recumbent position, that means on your side, maybe fetal position, 538 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: that means that he's not taking a lot of time 539 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: at the scene, so that would have given the detectives 540 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: at that point an indication that this may have been 541 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: a frenzied event. Last question to you, frenzied, how does 542 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: that jive with redressing her? As far as redressing Nancy, 543 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: I would really like to know how she was redressed. 544 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, they throw this term around a lot. I've 545 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: actually heard somebody say that she may have been suffocated 546 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: at one point time with her own jacket. Well, how 547 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: is that possible if the jacket is on her body 548 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: and zipped all the way up? You know what I mean? 549 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: She obviously was redressed because their underwhear we're put back on. 550 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: So what does and what is the fact that her 551 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: shoes are missing mean to you? Well, again, with the shoes, 552 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: I think that this is key. A lot has been 553 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: made out of these shoes. She was proud of these shoes. Well, 554 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: who in her little orbit that she lived in in 555 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: that particular time would have had an awareness that she 556 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: had brand new shoes, these little shoes she had gotten 557 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: at Christmas. Who would have known about how much pride 558 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: she would take in the shoes? Does she show them off? 559 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: Does she talk, well, hey, look out on your shoes, 560 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,439 Speaker 1: so you believe they were taken as a trophy. That's 561 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: my suspicion, Yes, guys. The tipline in the death of 562 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: brutal murder of Debbie Randall seven seven zero five two 563 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: eight three zero three two repeat seven seven zero five 564 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: two eight three zero three two. For more in depth information, 565 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: go to crime online dot com. Nancy Grace crime story 566 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 1: signing off, Goodbye friend.