WEBVTT - Brett Kavanaugh Is A Great Man, Starr Says 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:13.040 Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.560 jay Ley. We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:23.480 and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:34.120 Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg. And 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.519 here to help us understand what is going on in 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.479 the world before we get to the investment perspective is 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.480 Professor Jeffrey Sachs. He is a professor at Columbia University. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.239 He is also the author of the Global Index on 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.400 Sustainable Development Goals for the United Nations, and Professor Sachs 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:56.160 has written about international trade as well as US politics, 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.040 and he joins us here in our eleven three oh studios. So, 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.240 Professor Sacks, thanks very much for being here. Let's maybe 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.960 just describe for people what exactly is the Global Index 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:10.720 on Sustainable Development Goals. The idea of sustainable development is 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.080 that we should watch not only g NP and the 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:22.400 economic indicators, but also the social indicators of inequality, health, violence, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:27.480 and the environmental indicators on climate change and pollution. So 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:32.880 this index looks at the economic, the social, and the 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.280 environmental conditions of countries all over the world, and we 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.720 take a look at whether they're making progress towards the 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.880 goals that we've set. For example, when we agreed in 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:51.040 Paris two take limit the global warming, our our country 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.880 is really doing that. So where does the United States 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.240 rank in this global index? Not very well. Of course, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.840 it does well on the economics side, broadly speaking, were 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:06.360 a rich country, but on the social side we have 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.840 about the highest inequality of all of the high income 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:15.120 countries of the world. We have the biggest gaps between 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.680 rich and poor of the high income world. And on 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:25.520 the environment, we're massive polluters. Unfortunately, we omit almost seventeen 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.440 tons of carbon dioxide per American every year, one of 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.160 the highest rates in the world and therefore one of 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.720 the biggest contributors to global warming. So among the high 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.840 income countries, were near the bottom. The countries that are 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.239 at the top, not surprisingly for some of us who 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.840 watch these things and have the chance to visit them, 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.880 are the Scandinavian countries. This year, Sweden is number one, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:57.120 Denmark number two, Finland number three. Uh those countries have 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:07.000 a remarkable combination of prosperity and social fairness and environmental sustainability. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.040 I believe You've also written that the countries that are 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:15.400 the happiest are the countries where they tax themselves the most. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.360 It's exactly the opposite of the American assumption, which is 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.720 cut taxes and people will be happy. But the countries 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.640 that I've just named, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, they rank the 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.800 highest in happiness. How do you know about happiness? Because 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:38.520 Gallup International asked people all over the world how satisfied 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.120 are you with your life? This year? The country that 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:46.160 ranked the highest in that was Finland, followed by Norway 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.480 and Denmark. And then look at their taxes. They're taxing 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.400 half of the national income in those countries, and you'd say, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.600 my god, everybody must feel miserable. But what they use 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:05.720 those taxes for is free universal access to quality health, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:13.440 free universal access to quality education, no student debt for university, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.960 child care for all, six weeks, vacation for all. In 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.560 other words, they're living the good life. They paid the taxes, 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.240 but then the government services that they get give them 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.120 the life that we all think is the kind of 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.320 life we would like, which is the access to quality 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:37.400 services and leisure time and ability to raise our kids 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.039 in safety. Well, then what do you say, to those 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.440 critics that may describe the United States as a place 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:49.080 where innovation and the motivation to succeed that drive is 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.120 particularly because there is not the state support for the 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.599 very things that you described, that the individual has to 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.839 work themselves in an outsized way in order to make 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.640 those things a reality. Well, I think there's some truth 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:11.800 to that. The US is an innovative society, but so 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.599 to our those countries in Northern Europe. They're doing it 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.120 a bit different differently, but they are competing on world 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:25.240 markets and cutting edge industries. Sweden, we know from Spotify 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:30.960 and so many others, are very dynamic and exciting uh 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.359 startup places in the world. But what we have in 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.520 the United States is a kind of excess because we 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.360 now have an epidemic of suicides, we have an epidemic 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:49.640 of drug addictions, opiate addictions. We have falling life expectancy 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.680 in this country. We have more people behind bars than 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.840 any other high income country in the world by far 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:04.159 in per population to arms. We've got rising depression rates 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:08.719 in this country. Um, we've got some serious, serious social 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:13.040 problems that we're not attending to, and we're also doing 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.800 damage for the future in not even paying attention, not 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.320 even caring, just denying all of the environmental issues which 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.240 are staring us in the face. When you're hit by 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:30.040 three mega hurricanes, massive forest fires and say, duh, we 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:35.320 don't believe in that, it shows a pretty high degree 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.880 of political corruption or neglect, or a combination of the two. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.719 So no, I don't think that the United States is 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.400 balancing these various factors very well. Right now, let me 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.719 just push you a little bit more. The very things 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.520 that you described, they could not all be the result 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:55.279 of activity over the last eighteen months. Do you believe 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.000 that these are the very issues that President Donald Trump 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.320 ran against or at least offered solutions for, and as 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:09.040 a result, what President Trump is doing now makes sense 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.720 in light of what you've just described. Well, first of all, 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.280 the things that I've been describing our trends over the 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:20.800 last forty years. So this is absolutely not about Donald Trump. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.120 This is about America, and this has been going on 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.960 for a long time. I wish I could say that 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.280 the kinds of directions that we're taking right now would 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.840 be addressing these issues, but I just don't see it. 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.560 Tax cuts for the rich, larger budget deficits, whereas the 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:46.920 rebuilding of infrastructure. I don't see it. We're cutting social services, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:52.880 were squeezing help for the poor. We have an epidemic 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:57.320 of school shootings, we have anxiety in this country. Division. 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:07.200 So these are not, uh the immediate results of this president. 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.760 But I don't see that we're moving in the direction 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.000 to address these problems. I think you're absolutely right by 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.840 the way that a lot of the support that he 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:21.680 got was a reflection of this sense that we're moving 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.800 in the wrong direction. But I don't see us getting 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.920 on the right direction in the specific kinds of approaches 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.360 that are underway right now. I want to get your 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.959 views on something specific that, of course happened in London 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.839 over the last couple of forty eight hours, the resignation 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.880 of Boris Johnson of Foreign Secretary David Davis, Brexit UH 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.920 Cabinet minister. What do you believe will happen with Brexit? 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.440 And maybe you have different scenarios. I don't think that 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.880 there is a good scenario for the UK. That's what 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:02.880 they're realizing. That's why they can't get behind a single approach, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:09.080 because the Brexiteers sold a kind of utopian view that 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.760 they'd saved so much money, they'd have so much benefit 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.440 by leaving Europe. Now they're realizing that they're basically going 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.600 to give up their markets, their economy, and so they're 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.640 scrambling to try to keep the link with Europe. And 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:30.960 what emerged from this realization was what's called the soft Brexit, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.880 which is well, will leave the European Union, but will 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.679 basically stay in the terms of Europe. That's what caused 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:44.960 these two cabinet members to leave this soft option. But 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.400 the hard option is even uglier. So they've really been 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:53.839 backed to a corner. Basically, the this slim majority to 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.320 leave was sold a bill of goods. Uh, they can't deliver, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:03.600 and that's why there's no consent within the Conservative government. 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.559 Thank you very much for being with us. Much appreciated, 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.600 Professor Jeffrey Sachs. You can follow a Professor Sacks on 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.280 Twitter at jeff D Sacks and he is also the 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:32.280 author of the third annual Global Index on Sustainable Development Goals. Tom, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.600 you know you were speaking about the Brett the Kavanaugh 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.520 as Donald Trump's the President Donald Trump's selection to the 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.640 seat being vacated by Justice Anthony Kennedy. And really we've 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.079 got someone who is the best I would say to 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.559 tell us about this selection is Mr ken Starr. He 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.920 is a former Whitewater Independent Council, former US solicitor generally 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:56.800 is a former judge, and he is now the author 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:02.160 of a book entitled Contempt, a memoir the Clinton Investigation 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.160 that comes out in September. Ken Star joins us from 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.439 our One Studios in Washington, d C. Ken Star, thank 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.680 you very much for being with us. Oh my pleasure. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.080 Thank you give us your first impressions about learning that 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.720 that Mr Kavana, the Judge Kavanaugh has been tapped to 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:25.319 join the Supreme Court. Joy, Brett's a great man. He's 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:31.000 a great human being. Uh, extremely able, buddy, is a 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:35.760 personal great humility and kindness, generosity of spirit. I think 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.040 that character started to be seen by the American people 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.839 last evening. Uh. He worked for you, he did? What 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.720 did he do for you? Well? We worked together both 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.400 in my former law firm of Kirkland Analys here in 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.679 Washingt d C. I recruited Brett off of the clerkship 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.320 with Justice Kennedy, so I won the Brett Kavanaugh Derby. 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.880 So we worked together as private practitioners, but we also 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:08.840 worked together in the UH the Whitewater investigation, and he 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.400 performed brilliantly every task. So one of the great things 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.400 about Brett is he has just tremendous judgment and that 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:21.559 came through in the most shall I say, controversial parts 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.760 of the investigation involving Monica Lewinsky. But he was with 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.200 me off and on through that very long period of time, 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.400 taking on different responsibilities and doing a great job. I 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.840 wonder if you could comment on the idea that a 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:39.400 great judgment is now being exercised in a world of 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:45.440 great political partisanship. Yes, the job of a judge is 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.439 to set all that aside, to leave his or her 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.360 politics at the door, and to say, I've got to 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.600 concentrate on the facts and on the law, and I 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.360 need to respect both. I'm not to manipulate either one 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.760 to achieve a desired result. And that's especially hard for 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.080 judges in the federal system um interpreting our constitution, where 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.560 there is a running room, there's elasticity. What is the 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.760 meaning of freedom of speech or free exercise of religion? 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.600 So these do call for for judgments. And one of 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.520 the things about Bratt about Judge Kavanaugh uh is he 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:30.240 will approach the task with a really admirable humility and say, 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.720 I really need to listen and learn and evaluate an assess. Now. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.440 He doesn't come to it without principles, and we've heard 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.720 some of those principles last night. He believes the Constitution 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.600 is the law of the land, and while there is 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.480 room for interpretation, what it does mean, just very briefly, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.160 is the judge or justice is not to impose his 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.679 or her own policy preferences on we the people. So 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.559 that's that's the beginning of the conversation, and I think 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.360 it's going to be a great conversation. There will be 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.199 a lot of yelling, unfortunately, but that's just welcome to democracy. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.320 Can start within our democracy. There was a time which 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.840 I remember, and I'm going to think of Jacob Javits 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.120 and others, where you you, you checked on the guy's 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.880 credentials and then even if you didn't agree with their politics, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.400 you voted him in. And we seemed to have removed 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.000 ourselves from that. Do you have a nostalgia that we 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.520 can get back pre Robert Borke, pre Abe Ford us 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.680 to some form of Supreme Court process where we just 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:36.960 say somebody's qualified, Okay, it can happen. I don't see 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.720 the path forward to making it happen. But but even 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:46.200 after the Judge Bork situation, Ruth Ginsberg ran the gauntlet 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:52.080 and her nomination was approved almost unanimously. Now, Ruth, who's 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.240 a great human being and obviously very distinguished judge, had 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:01.800 a record that all conservative Republicans in the current environment, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.080 we said, no, of course she's capable, and she's honest 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.400 and the like, but we don't agree with her, and 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.880 therefore we'll go against her again. The vote was almost unanimously, 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:16.200 almost unanimous. Ditto with Stephen Bryant. Are these um this 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.800 wasn't so terribly long ago. It was the last interest 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.640 it's for one thing, I think the emergence of the 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.240 special interest groups, and that's who we were hearing from 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.160 last evening, and the special interest groups, not that they 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.800 didn't exist before, but I think there's just great power, 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.080 and they have platforms, they raise enormous amounts of money, 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.240 and so they're inflaming I think on both sides of 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.840 the aisle, they're inflaming passions. One thing you did within 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.960 all of your public service in the controversy over Kent Star, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.880 which Pim and I remember so well, is then you 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.320 went onto a bigger headache, which was a college president, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.920 which has got to be the worst job in America, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.760 I mean the yard by any What did you learn 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.880 going from the Ken Star craziness of Washington and all 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.120 the controversy For those of you younger folks, Ken Starr 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:13.240 was mentioned in every third news story for about two years. 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.240 What was it like when you realized you had a 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:21.720 bigger challenge at Baylor University and talking about humbling and 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.880 the and the need for a humility. But I felt 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.240 very privileged to be at at Baylor University with its 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.960 great history of the oldest continuingly operating university in the 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.640 state of Texas. Before the state of Texas was uh, 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.200 there was Baylor University. So it had a great tradition. 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.480 I'm a six generation Texas. It was a great call home. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.840 We won't hold that against you, no, I I put 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.040 that to my credit. But you're you're very kind, Thank you. 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.240 And so the long attort of it is the university 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.920 is extremely complex with many constituencies, and I think it 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.880 many respects. Being a college president is tougher than being 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.080 a United States Senate. There. I never was one, but 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.600 I've been on Capitol Hill a lot because trying to 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.159 manage those constituencies, but also in this day and time, 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.520 showing courage, showing courage and to say no, this is 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.080 what we stand for. For example, I'm a free speech guy. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.280 And so the idea that, uh I use this just 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.000 as an example that speakers on college campuses can be 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.760 heck old and so forth and and and almost physically assaulted, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.800 is utterly inimical to what a university stands for. And 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.919 I think college presidents, university presidents have to take the 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.280 lead and stand up and say no, that's wrong, we 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.120 don't do that, um and that, and that takes courage. 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.639 Uh So I learned you need to be courageous virtually 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.960 every day and trying to manage the constituenties, but constituencies, 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.680 but also say, hey, what is it that we're here 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.480 to do? And as I was fond of saying, it's 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.800 all about the students. If what we're doing isn't about 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.480 student welfare and well being, then we need to really 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.000 reassess kind of star. Thank you so much for joining 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.840 us today to comment on at your former clerk, Mr Kavanaugh, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.880 who starts a path towards the Supreme Court kind Star, 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.720 the former Whitewater Independent Council US Solicitor General and of 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.439 course a former judge is well him. I thought that 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.360 was great. We should you know. It's great to talk 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.679 to people that either worked for whoever we're talking about, 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.520 or they worked for them. You get a whole different perspective, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.360 don't you. Yes. And just to remind everyone that Ken 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.679 Star has a book that is come out in September. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:46.439 It is entitled Contempt, a Memoir of the Clinton Investigation 0:18:46.560 --> 0:19:02.359 that will be out in September by Kent Star. This 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.560 is the interview of the day because within all the 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.480 uproars speaking to the elites of Washington, the elites of 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.440 New York, the people in six zip codes are certainly 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.119 pim fox the elites of this London, England. There is 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:24.480 another United Kingdom. Daniel Kazinski is the Minister of Parliament 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.399 for the Wisconsin of the United Kingdom. It is to 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.680 the northwest. It is buttressed up against the border with Wales. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.000 Um minister, wonderful to have you with us today. Are 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:42.120 there more cows than people in your district? Well, good afternoon. 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.960 We in Shrups are very proud of our cattle farming 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.480 and we have a lot of some of the best 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.080 cattle ranches in the country, and yes we are very 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:58.800 agriculturally based community. I am horrifically guilty, unlike Pim who's 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.359 it was a rural kind a guy of only focusing 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.159 on England and the five newspapers. How do the people 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.560 of your district, how does rural United Kingdom? How do 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.439 people outside the seven zip codes of London? How do 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:20.080 they respond to the uproar of the last forty eight hours? Well, 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.960 I think the British people generally are very sensible, pragmatic people, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:30.640 but they want they have experimented whether they have allowed 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.280 this experiment of our being a member of the first 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.000 the European Economic Community, then the European Community and then 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.960 the European Union because it is morphed into something completely 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.080 different from what we joined in nine two. They have 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:49.800 allowed this experiment to continue for forty six years. Uh 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.080 and they have come to the conclusion that it does 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.439 not suit our country. We have tried very hard, we 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.640 have been very patient, They have been very tolerant. They 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.439 have acquiesced to us handing over nearly seven hundred and 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.760 fifty billion dollars to the European Union. Since we joined, 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.160 they have seen a huge amount of our powers being 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:15.240 diminished as a result of legislation coming from the European Parliament. 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.959 They have gone along with all of that, but finally 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.199 they had come to the conclusion that they want to 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.080 get back to being a sovereign nation state and they 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.560 don't want to continue on the path of moving ever 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.280 closer into a super nationalist state, which is exactly what's 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.400 happening on the continent of euroau Daniel Krazinski, I'm wondering 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:38.560 if you could just speak a little bit about the 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.919 Conservative Party and do you believe that they will eventually 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:50.879 speak with one voice as regards a Brexit conclusion. No 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.520 country in my lifetime has ever successfully negotiated pulling out 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.119 of the European Union. This one size fits all straight 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:03.080 jacket which the elites of Brussels, who are by the way, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.240 unelected and unaccountable to the people. But this straight jacket 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.040 which they want to impose on the whole of the 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.040 continent is something that, as I've said, is not for us. 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:17.440 And being the first to do something is always fraught 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.000 with difficulties. I say to some of my constituents, Brexit 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.280 fields sometimes as if we are walking through a mind field. 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.080 But what we're doing is we are laying out a 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.440 path with bread crumbs for others to follow. And when 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.040 other country is particularly my country where I was born, Poland, 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:39.280 and others, when they see the United Kingdom thriving outside 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.800 of the European Union, navigating as a global country with 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.840 all the other countries around the world, because of course 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.639 ninety five percent of the world's growth is coming from 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.439 outside of the European Union, they will want to follow 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.640 us into becoming sovereign nation states. So of course it's difficult, 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.120 but we are absolutely resolved as a party and determined 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:03.080 to put the spot forward in our negotiating stance. In 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.159 the interviews that I've done, Sir, with the people that 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.480 are remain or like you, the people that are leave, 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.040 all are focused on Michael Gove. Tell our American in 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.680 our global audience who Michael Gove is and why you're 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.359 watching him in the next two days, the next two weeks, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:24.359 the next two months. Well, Michael Gove had you know, 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.760 when we had the Prime Minister Cameron, he tried to, 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.360 i think, make sure that all of us went along 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.040 with his dream of campaigning to remain in the European Union. 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.720 He brought back a negotiation which many of us considered 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:42.000 to be a fig leaf, something which wasn't worth the 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.399 paper was written on. And that's why people like Michael 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.480 Gove decided a senior member of the cabinet decided to 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.600 rebel and to actually say to him though, I am 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.800 going to campaign for Brexit. He showed great vision, a 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.919 great courage at that time, and many of us supported 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.160 his stance. That's one of the reasons I voted him 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.040 for him to be the leader of my party. He 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.040 is still in the cabinet and he has decided in 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.879 his wisdom, along with his other cock Brexit colleagues in 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.159 the cabinet, that this Checkers settlement with the Prime Minister 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:20.000 has presented to the cabinet is the most pragmatic way forward, 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:22.760 and as long as he continues to support the Prime 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:26.080 Minister that many of us moderates in the Conservative Party 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:30.040 will also give her that space to try to negotiate 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:34.640 something tangible and mutually beneficial with the European Union. Thank 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:37.679 you so much, Daniel Kazinski. Where this from Shampshire in 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.440 the northwest of the United Kingdom and of course a 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:58.439 member of Parliament. The president will leave for Europe. We 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.480 are saying Trump in Europe and we need perspective. We're 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:04.160 gonna do a lot in this in the next number 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:06.800 of days. Is Francie like and I travel to Helsinki? 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:09.879 Pim Fox in New York. I'm Tom Keene in London 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.520 and joining us now. Someone you need to listen to 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:16.399 Charles Coupstion uh counts on formulations are senior fellow and 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:22.920 an exceptionally interesting and varied experience with NATO. Dr coups 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.480 in good morning, what is the thing that we most 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.840 get wrong about NATO? We go NATO and I know 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.359 it's from another time in place and we talked to 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:35.120 Stavita's or, we talked to kap Lennen, we talked to has. 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:36.960 What's the thing that drives you nuts about what the 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:43.880 media covers of NATO? You know? I think the key 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:48.760 point here is that the President is right that allies 0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:51.840 have not spent enough on defense and need to do more. 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:56.080 We we spend about twice as a percent of GDP 0:25:57.160 --> 0:26:02.600 what they do on defense. But the constant haranguing of 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:08.800 our traditional European allies, the dissing of NATO. That's that's 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:11.480 where I think the President is off the mark, because 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:16.200 if you think historically, if you think about the onset 0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:19.879 of racism, of anti semitism of World War One, of 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:24.960 World War Two, and the unique revolutionary success that the 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:28.080 Atlantic democracies have had in carving out a piece for world, 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.439 you don't want to mess with that. You don't want 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:32.240 to tinker with that. We don't want to go back 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:35.880 to the nineteenth century. And that's where I think Trump 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:40.959 is taking threatening actions and shaking the foundations of the 0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:46.440 world that Americans worked so hard to build. After well 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:49.040 within that and from the Atlantic Charter on was the 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:53.920 new way. And then some would say, including Mersheimer in Chicago, 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.960 that we ever reached that we took some adjacence, ease, 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:02.640 and then we really drissed up against Mr Putin by 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:06.359 jaw owning about Georgia, jaw owning about this and that, 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:10.880 and the result was Crimea maybe even Ukraine. Did we overreach? 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:15.879 I think we did overreach, you know. I think in 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.600 the in the triumphalism that came after the end of 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:23.680 the Cold War, we thought we could we could take 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:27.760 at NATO and our principles and our charters and simply 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:32.720 extend them eastward. And the result was that we crawled 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:37.679 right up close to Russia, and Russia felt uncomfortable, you know, 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:41.240 to use a kind of analogy or counter factual, if 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:45.280 Russia form an alliance with Mexico and Canada and to 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:48.840