1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: jay Ley. We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg. And 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: here to help us understand what is going on in 6 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: the world before we get to the investment perspective is 7 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: Professor Jeffrey Sachs. He is a professor at Columbia University. 8 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: He is also the author of the Global Index on 9 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: Sustainable Development Goals for the United Nations, and Professor Sachs 10 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: has written about international trade as well as US politics, 11 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: and he joins us here in our eleven three oh studios. So, 12 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: Professor Sacks, thanks very much for being here. Let's maybe 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: just describe for people what exactly is the Global Index 14 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: on Sustainable Development Goals. The idea of sustainable development is 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: that we should watch not only g NP and the 16 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: economic indicators, but also the social indicators of inequality, health, violence, 17 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: and the environmental indicators on climate change and pollution. So 18 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: this index looks at the economic, the social, and the 19 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: environmental conditions of countries all over the world, and we 20 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: take a look at whether they're making progress towards the 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: goals that we've set. For example, when we agreed in 22 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: Paris two take limit the global warming, our our country 23 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: is really doing that. So where does the United States 24 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: rank in this global index? Not very well. Of course, 25 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: it does well on the economics side, broadly speaking, were 26 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: a rich country, but on the social side we have 27 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: about the highest inequality of all of the high income 28 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: countries of the world. We have the biggest gaps between 29 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: rich and poor of the high income world. And on 30 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: the environment, we're massive polluters. Unfortunately, we omit almost seventeen 31 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: tons of carbon dioxide per American every year, one of 32 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: the highest rates in the world and therefore one of 33 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: the biggest contributors to global warming. So among the high 34 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: income countries, were near the bottom. The countries that are 35 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: at the top, not surprisingly for some of us who 36 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: watch these things and have the chance to visit them, 37 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: are the Scandinavian countries. This year, Sweden is number one, 38 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: Denmark number two, Finland number three. Uh those countries have 39 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: a remarkable combination of prosperity and social fairness and environmental sustainability. 40 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: I believe You've also written that the countries that are 41 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: the happiest are the countries where they tax themselves the most. 42 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: It's exactly the opposite of the American assumption, which is 43 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: cut taxes and people will be happy. But the countries 44 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: that I've just named, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, they rank the 45 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: highest in happiness. How do you know about happiness? Because 46 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: Gallup International asked people all over the world how satisfied 47 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: are you with your life? This year? The country that 48 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: ranked the highest in that was Finland, followed by Norway 49 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: and Denmark. And then look at their taxes. They're taxing 50 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: half of the national income in those countries, and you'd say, 51 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: my god, everybody must feel miserable. But what they use 52 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: those taxes for is free universal access to quality health, 53 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: free universal access to quality education, no student debt for university, 54 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: child care for all, six weeks, vacation for all. In 55 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: other words, they're living the good life. They paid the taxes, 56 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: but then the government services that they get give them 57 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: the life that we all think is the kind of 58 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: life we would like, which is the access to quality 59 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: services and leisure time and ability to raise our kids 60 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: in safety. Well, then what do you say, to those 61 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: critics that may describe the United States as a place 62 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: where innovation and the motivation to succeed that drive is 63 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: particularly because there is not the state support for the 64 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: very things that you described, that the individual has to 65 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: work themselves in an outsized way in order to make 66 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: those things a reality. Well, I think there's some truth 67 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: to that. The US is an innovative society, but so 68 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: to our those countries in Northern Europe. They're doing it 69 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: a bit different differently, but they are competing on world 70 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: markets and cutting edge industries. Sweden, we know from Spotify 71 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: and so many others, are very dynamic and exciting uh 72 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: startup places in the world. But what we have in 73 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: the United States is a kind of excess because we 74 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: now have an epidemic of suicides, we have an epidemic 75 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: of drug addictions, opiate addictions. We have falling life expectancy 76 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: in this country. We have more people behind bars than 77 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: any other high income country in the world by far 78 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: in per population to arms. We've got rising depression rates 79 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: in this country. Um, we've got some serious, serious social 80 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: problems that we're not attending to, and we're also doing 81 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: damage for the future in not even paying attention, not 82 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: even caring, just denying all of the environmental issues which 83 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: are staring us in the face. When you're hit by 84 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: three mega hurricanes, massive forest fires and say, duh, we 85 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: don't believe in that, it shows a pretty high degree 86 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: of political corruption or neglect, or a combination of the two. 87 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: So no, I don't think that the United States is 88 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: balancing these various factors very well. Right now, let me 89 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: just push you a little bit more. The very things 90 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: that you described, they could not all be the result 91 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: of activity over the last eighteen months. Do you believe 92 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: that these are the very issues that President Donald Trump 93 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: ran against or at least offered solutions for, and as 94 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: a result, what President Trump is doing now makes sense 95 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: in light of what you've just described. Well, first of all, 96 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: the things that I've been describing our trends over the 97 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: last forty years. So this is absolutely not about Donald Trump. 98 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: This is about America, and this has been going on 99 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: for a long time. I wish I could say that 100 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: the kinds of directions that we're taking right now would 101 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: be addressing these issues, but I just don't see it. 102 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Tax cuts for the rich, larger budget deficits, whereas the 103 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: rebuilding of infrastructure. I don't see it. We're cutting social services, 104 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: were squeezing help for the poor. We have an epidemic 105 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: of school shootings, we have anxiety in this country. Division. 106 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: So these are not, uh the immediate results of this president. 107 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: But I don't see that we're moving in the direction 108 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: to address these problems. I think you're absolutely right by 109 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: the way that a lot of the support that he 110 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: got was a reflection of this sense that we're moving 111 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: in the wrong direction. But I don't see us getting 112 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: on the right direction in the specific kinds of approaches 113 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: that are underway right now. I want to get your 114 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: views on something specific that, of course happened in London 115 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: over the last couple of forty eight hours, the resignation 116 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: of Boris Johnson of Foreign Secretary David Davis, Brexit UH 117 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: Cabinet minister. What do you believe will happen with Brexit? 118 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: And maybe you have different scenarios. I don't think that 119 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: there is a good scenario for the UK. That's what 120 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: they're realizing. That's why they can't get behind a single approach, 121 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: because the Brexiteers sold a kind of utopian view that 122 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: they'd saved so much money, they'd have so much benefit 123 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: by leaving Europe. Now they're realizing that they're basically going 124 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: to give up their markets, their economy, and so they're 125 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: scrambling to try to keep the link with Europe. And 126 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: what emerged from this realization was what's called the soft Brexit, 127 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: which is well, will leave the European Union, but will 128 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: basically stay in the terms of Europe. That's what caused 129 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: these two cabinet members to leave this soft option. But 130 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: the hard option is even uglier. So they've really been 131 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: backed to a corner. Basically, the this slim majority to 132 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: leave was sold a bill of goods. Uh, they can't deliver, 133 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: and that's why there's no consent within the Conservative government. 134 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for being with us. Much appreciated, 135 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: Professor Jeffrey Sachs. You can follow a Professor Sacks on 136 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: Twitter at jeff D Sacks and he is also the 137 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: author of the third annual Global Index on Sustainable Development Goals. Tom, 138 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: you know you were speaking about the Brett the Kavanaugh 139 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: as Donald Trump's the President Donald Trump's selection to the 140 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: seat being vacated by Justice Anthony Kennedy. And really we've 141 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: got someone who is the best I would say to 142 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: tell us about this selection is Mr ken Starr. He 143 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: is a former Whitewater Independent Council, former US solicitor generally 144 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: is a former judge, and he is now the author 145 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: of a book entitled Contempt, a memoir the Clinton Investigation 146 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: that comes out in September. Ken Star joins us from 147 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: our One Studios in Washington, d C. Ken Star, thank 148 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: you very much for being with us. Oh my pleasure. 149 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: Thank you give us your first impressions about learning that 150 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: that Mr Kavana, the Judge Kavanaugh has been tapped to 151 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: join the Supreme Court. Joy, Brett's a great man. He's 152 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: a great human being. Uh, extremely able, buddy, is a 153 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: personal great humility and kindness, generosity of spirit. I think 154 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: that character started to be seen by the American people 155 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: last evening. Uh. He worked for you, he did? What 156 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: did he do for you? Well? We worked together both 157 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: in my former law firm of Kirkland Analys here in 158 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: Washingt d C. I recruited Brett off of the clerkship 159 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: with Justice Kennedy, so I won the Brett Kavanaugh Derby. 160 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: So we worked together as private practitioners, but we also 161 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: worked together in the UH the Whitewater investigation, and he 162 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: performed brilliantly every task. So one of the great things 163 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: about Brett is he has just tremendous judgment and that 164 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: came through in the most shall I say, controversial parts 165 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: of the investigation involving Monica Lewinsky. But he was with 166 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: me off and on through that very long period of time, 167 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: taking on different responsibilities and doing a great job. I 168 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: wonder if you could comment on the idea that a 169 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: great judgment is now being exercised in a world of 170 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: great political partisanship. Yes, the job of a judge is 171 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: to set all that aside, to leave his or her 172 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: politics at the door, and to say, I've got to 173 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: concentrate on the facts and on the law, and I 174 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: need to respect both. I'm not to manipulate either one 175 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: to achieve a desired result. And that's especially hard for 176 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: judges in the federal system um interpreting our constitution, where 177 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: there is a running room, there's elasticity. What is the 178 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: meaning of freedom of speech or free exercise of religion? 179 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: So these do call for for judgments. And one of 180 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: the things about Bratt about Judge Kavanaugh uh is he 181 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: will approach the task with a really admirable humility and say, 182 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: I really need to listen and learn and evaluate an assess. Now. 183 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: He doesn't come to it without principles, and we've heard 184 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: some of those principles last night. He believes the Constitution 185 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: is the law of the land, and while there is 186 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: room for interpretation, what it does mean, just very briefly, 187 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: is the judge or justice is not to impose his 188 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: or her own policy preferences on we the people. So 189 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: that's that's the beginning of the conversation, and I think 190 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: it's going to be a great conversation. There will be 191 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: a lot of yelling, unfortunately, but that's just welcome to democracy. 192 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: Can start within our democracy. There was a time which 193 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: I remember, and I'm going to think of Jacob Javits 194 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: and others, where you you, you checked on the guy's 195 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: credentials and then even if you didn't agree with their politics, 196 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: you voted him in. And we seemed to have removed 197 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: ourselves from that. Do you have a nostalgia that we 198 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: can get back pre Robert Borke, pre Abe Ford us 199 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: to some form of Supreme Court process where we just 200 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: say somebody's qualified, Okay, it can happen. I don't see 201 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: the path forward to making it happen. But but even 202 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: after the Judge Bork situation, Ruth Ginsberg ran the gauntlet 203 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: and her nomination was approved almost unanimously. Now, Ruth, who's 204 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: a great human being and obviously very distinguished judge, had 205 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: a record that all conservative Republicans in the current environment, 206 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: we said, no, of course she's capable, and she's honest 207 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: and the like, but we don't agree with her, and 208 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: therefore we'll go against her again. The vote was almost unanimously, 209 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: almost unanimous. Ditto with Stephen Bryant. Are these um this 210 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: wasn't so terribly long ago. It was the last interest 211 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: it's for one thing, I think the emergence of the 212 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: special interest groups, and that's who we were hearing from 213 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: last evening, and the special interest groups, not that they 214 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: didn't exist before, but I think there's just great power, 215 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: and they have platforms, they raise enormous amounts of money, 216 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: and so they're inflaming I think on both sides of 217 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: the aisle, they're inflaming passions. One thing you did within 218 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: all of your public service in the controversy over Kent Star, 219 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: which Pim and I remember so well, is then you 220 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: went onto a bigger headache, which was a college president, 221 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: which has got to be the worst job in America, 222 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean the yard by any What did you learn 223 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: going from the Ken Star craziness of Washington and all 224 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: the controversy For those of you younger folks, Ken Starr 225 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: was mentioned in every third news story for about two years. 226 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: What was it like when you realized you had a 227 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: bigger challenge at Baylor University and talking about humbling and 228 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: the and the need for a humility. But I felt 229 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: very privileged to be at at Baylor University with its 230 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: great history of the oldest continuingly operating university in the 231 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: state of Texas. Before the state of Texas was uh, 232 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: there was Baylor University. So it had a great tradition. 233 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm a six generation Texas. It was a great call home. 234 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: We won't hold that against you, no, I I put 235 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: that to my credit. But you're you're very kind, Thank you. 236 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: And so the long attort of it is the university 237 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: is extremely complex with many constituencies, and I think it 238 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: many respects. Being a college president is tougher than being 239 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: a United States Senate. There. I never was one, but 240 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: I've been on Capitol Hill a lot because trying to 241 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: manage those constituencies, but also in this day and time, 242 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: showing courage, showing courage and to say no, this is 243 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: what we stand for. For example, I'm a free speech guy. 244 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: And so the idea that, uh I use this just 245 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: as an example that speakers on college campuses can be 246 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: heck old and so forth and and and almost physically assaulted, 247 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: is utterly inimical to what a university stands for. And 248 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: I think college presidents, university presidents have to take the 249 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: lead and stand up and say no, that's wrong, we 250 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: don't do that, um and that, and that takes courage. 251 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: Uh So I learned you need to be courageous virtually 252 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: every day and trying to manage the constituenties, but constituencies, 253 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: but also say, hey, what is it that we're here 254 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: to do? And as I was fond of saying, it's 255 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: all about the students. If what we're doing isn't about 256 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: student welfare and well being, then we need to really 257 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: reassess kind of star. Thank you so much for joining 258 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: us today to comment on at your former clerk, Mr Kavanaugh, 259 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: who starts a path towards the Supreme Court kind Star, 260 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: the former Whitewater Independent Council US Solicitor General and of 261 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: course a former judge is well him. I thought that 262 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: was great. We should you know. It's great to talk 263 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: to people that either worked for whoever we're talking about, 264 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: or they worked for them. You get a whole different perspective, 265 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: don't you. Yes. And just to remind everyone that Ken 266 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: Star has a book that is come out in September. 267 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: It is entitled Contempt, a Memoir of the Clinton Investigation 268 00:18:46,560 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: that will be out in September by Kent Star. This 269 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: is the interview of the day because within all the 270 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: uproars speaking to the elites of Washington, the elites of 271 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: New York, the people in six zip codes are certainly 272 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: pim fox the elites of this London, England. There is 273 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: another United Kingdom. Daniel Kazinski is the Minister of Parliament 274 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: for the Wisconsin of the United Kingdom. It is to 275 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: the northwest. It is buttressed up against the border with Wales. 276 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: Um minister, wonderful to have you with us today. Are 277 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: there more cows than people in your district? Well, good afternoon. 278 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: We in Shrups are very proud of our cattle farming 279 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: and we have a lot of some of the best 280 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: cattle ranches in the country, and yes we are very 281 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: agriculturally based community. I am horrifically guilty, unlike Pim who's 282 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: it was a rural kind a guy of only focusing 283 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: on England and the five newspapers. How do the people 284 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: of your district, how does rural United Kingdom? How do 285 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: people outside the seven zip codes of London? How do 286 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: they respond to the uproar of the last forty eight hours? Well, 287 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: I think the British people generally are very sensible, pragmatic people, 288 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: but they want they have experimented whether they have allowed 289 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: this experiment of our being a member of the first 290 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: the European Economic Community, then the European Community and then 291 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: the European Union because it is morphed into something completely 292 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: different from what we joined in nine two. They have 293 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: allowed this experiment to continue for forty six years. Uh 294 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: and they have come to the conclusion that it does 295 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: not suit our country. We have tried very hard, we 296 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: have been very patient, They have been very tolerant. They 297 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: have acquiesced to us handing over nearly seven hundred and 298 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars to the European Union. Since we joined, 299 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: they have seen a huge amount of our powers being 300 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: diminished as a result of legislation coming from the European Parliament. 301 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 1: They have gone along with all of that, but finally 302 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: they had come to the conclusion that they want to 303 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: get back to being a sovereign nation state and they 304 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: don't want to continue on the path of moving ever 305 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: closer into a super nationalist state, which is exactly what's 306 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: happening on the continent of euroau Daniel Krazinski, I'm wondering 307 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: if you could just speak a little bit about the 308 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: Conservative Party and do you believe that they will eventually 309 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: speak with one voice as regards a Brexit conclusion. No 310 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: country in my lifetime has ever successfully negotiated pulling out 311 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: of the European Union. This one size fits all straight 312 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: jacket which the elites of Brussels, who are by the way, 313 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: unelected and unaccountable to the people. But this straight jacket 314 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: which they want to impose on the whole of the 315 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: continent is something that, as I've said, is not for us. 316 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: And being the first to do something is always fraught 317 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: with difficulties. I say to some of my constituents, Brexit 318 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: fields sometimes as if we are walking through a mind field. 319 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: But what we're doing is we are laying out a 320 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: path with bread crumbs for others to follow. And when 321 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: other country is particularly my country where I was born, Poland, 322 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: and others, when they see the United Kingdom thriving outside 323 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: of the European Union, navigating as a global country with 324 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: all the other countries around the world, because of course 325 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: ninety five percent of the world's growth is coming from 326 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: outside of the European Union, they will want to follow 327 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: us into becoming sovereign nation states. So of course it's difficult, 328 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: but we are absolutely resolved as a party and determined 329 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: to put the spot forward in our negotiating stance. In 330 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: the interviews that I've done, Sir, with the people that 331 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: are remain or like you, the people that are leave, 332 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: all are focused on Michael Gove. Tell our American in 333 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: our global audience who Michael Gove is and why you're 334 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: watching him in the next two days, the next two weeks, 335 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: the next two months. Well, Michael Gove had you know, 336 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: when we had the Prime Minister Cameron, he tried to, 337 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: i think, make sure that all of us went along 338 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: with his dream of campaigning to remain in the European Union. 339 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: He brought back a negotiation which many of us considered 340 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: to be a fig leaf, something which wasn't worth the 341 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: paper was written on. And that's why people like Michael 342 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: Gove decided a senior member of the cabinet decided to 343 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: rebel and to actually say to him though, I am 344 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: going to campaign for Brexit. He showed great vision, a 345 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: great courage at that time, and many of us supported 346 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: his stance. That's one of the reasons I voted him 347 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: for him to be the leader of my party. He 348 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: is still in the cabinet and he has decided in 349 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: his wisdom, along with his other cock Brexit colleagues in 350 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: the cabinet, that this Checkers settlement with the Prime Minister 351 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: has presented to the cabinet is the most pragmatic way forward, 352 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: and as long as he continues to support the Prime 353 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: Minister that many of us moderates in the Conservative Party 354 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: will also give her that space to try to negotiate 355 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: something tangible and mutually beneficial with the European Union. Thank 356 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: you so much, Daniel Kazinski. Where this from Shampshire in 357 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: the northwest of the United Kingdom and of course a 358 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: member of Parliament. The president will leave for Europe. We 359 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: are saying Trump in Europe and we need perspective. We're 360 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: gonna do a lot in this in the next number 361 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: of days. Is Francie like and I travel to Helsinki? 362 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: Pim Fox in New York. I'm Tom Keene in London 363 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: and joining us now. Someone you need to listen to 364 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: Charles Coupstion uh counts on formulations are senior fellow and 365 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: an exceptionally interesting and varied experience with NATO. Dr coups 366 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: in good morning, what is the thing that we most 367 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: get wrong about NATO? We go NATO and I know 368 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: it's from another time in place and we talked to 369 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: Stavita's or, we talked to kap Lennen, we talked to has. 370 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: What's the thing that drives you nuts about what the 371 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: media covers of NATO? You know? I think the key 372 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: point here is that the President is right that allies 373 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: have not spent enough on defense and need to do more. 374 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: We we spend about twice as a percent of GDP 375 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: what they do on defense. But the constant haranguing of 376 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: our traditional European allies, the dissing of NATO. That's that's 377 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: where I think the President is off the mark, because 378 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: if you think historically, if you think about the onset 379 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: of racism, of anti semitism of World War One, of 380 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: World War Two, and the unique revolutionary success that the 381 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: Atlantic democracies have had in carving out a piece for world, 382 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: you don't want to mess with that. You don't want 383 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: to tinker with that. We don't want to go back 384 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: to the nineteenth century. And that's where I think Trump 385 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: is taking threatening actions and shaking the foundations of the 386 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: world that Americans worked so hard to build. After well 387 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: within that and from the Atlantic Charter on was the 388 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: new way. And then some would say, including Mersheimer in Chicago, 389 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: that we ever reached that we took some adjacence, ease, 390 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: and then we really drissed up against Mr Putin by 391 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: jaw owning about Georgia, jaw owning about this and that, 392 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: and the result was Crimea maybe even Ukraine. Did we overreach? 393 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: I think we did overreach, you know. I think in 394 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: the in the triumphalism that came after the end of 395 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: the Cold War, we thought we could we could take 396 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: at NATO and our principles and our charters and simply 397 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: extend them eastward. And the result was that we crawled 398 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: right up close to Russia, and Russia felt uncomfortable, you know, 399 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: to use a kind of analogy or counter factual, if 400 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: Russia form an alliance with Mexico and Canada and to 401 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: put Russian troops on our border, we would go crazy, 402 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: right uh, And so we we sort of did that 403 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: with with the Russians. That having been said, I don't 404 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: think that there's any reason that that kind of decision 405 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: to expand and NATO justified what the Russians have did 406 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, or what they've done in Georgia, or what 407 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: they've done in terms of interfering in Western elections. So uh, 408 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: I do think that we need to kind of separate 409 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: the week from the taff and make sure that our 410 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: core relationships with the UK, with France, with Germany are 411 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: in good working order. If they're not, we are in 412 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: deep trouble. Charles cup Chain does the United States is 413 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: outsized contribution to NATO bring US outsized benefits such as 414 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: the dollar as a reserve currency and also the United 415 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: States having a bigger voice in NATO and European affairs 416 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: as a result, you know, there's no question that the 417 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: what we call the liberal international order is also the 418 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: American order. The world that was built by Americans and Europeans, 419 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: in Japanese and South Koreans after World War Two was 420 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: a world that benefited the American people, American corporations, the 421 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: American way of life. That's one of the reasons that 422 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: the Chinese and the Reussians don't like it, because it 423 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: represents our values, that organizes societies in the way that 424 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: we like to organize them. So, yes, we do reap 425 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: inordinate benefits. But I do think that the that the 426 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: kind of key issue here is we have carved out 427 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: a unique, historically unprecedented zone of peace across the Atlantic, 428 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,239 Speaker 1: right from our west coast right through Poland and the 429 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: eastern frontier of NATO. There's a group of nations among 430 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: which war is unthinkable. Could could brinker with that, to 431 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: threaten that, to insult Germans as unworthy allies because they 432 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: sell more BMW's here than we sell boards in Germany. 433 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: That doesn't strike me as a move. It's in the 434 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: interests of American Yeah, let's press the Germans to spend 435 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: more on defense, but let's treat them with respect. And 436 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: realize that if the U s relationship with Germany or 437 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: the French relationship with Germany goes south, the fundamental anchors 438 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: of global peace are going to disappear. Do you believe 439 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: that the position of the United States will also hurt 440 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: the ability of US defense companies to sell their wares 441 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: to our allies. For example, the Europeans are looking at 442 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: a new Eurofighter rather than taking on the new F 443 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: thirty five Joint Strike fighter. Yeah, some of that, Some 444 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: of that is in play. You know. The Kirks, with 445 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: whom we have a troubled relationship right now, have been 446 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: looking at Russian military equipment. On the other hand, Poland 447 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: has recently made a decision to buy Patriot missiles, so 448 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: they're they're buying American uh many respects. These decisions are 449 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: made on the basis of cost and military efficacy, not 450 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 1: on when you whether you kilt this way or or 451 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: that way. But I think over time, if our relationship 452 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: with Europe stours, and the economic tariffs that we have 453 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: recently imposed on steel and aluminum, and tariffs that might 454 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: follow on other products, you know that that adds to 455 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: the sense of estrangement. So I do think we need 456 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: to to put the cart before the horse and make 457 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: sure that our fundamental relationships are fine and that we 458 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: don't see a rising tide of anti Americanism spread across Europe. 459 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: And what outcome does Vladimir Putin want from the NATO 460 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: meetings that he will not attend. Well, you know, unfortunately, 461 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: I think Mr Trump, whether he knows it or not, 462 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: is doing Putin's bidding, because what Putin wants is a 463 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: weakening of the West. What Putin wants is democracies that 464 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: turn against themselves. What Putin wants is a European Union 465 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: that suffers setback such as the departure of the United 466 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: Kingdom country that you're in right now. And so the 467 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: kind of uh differences and the open acrimony that we 468 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: see right now, and the degree to which the European 469 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: Union is dealing with rising populism, that's all what what 470 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: Putin wants. And so I think the real danger this 471 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: week is that Mr Trump goes to Europe, he ends 472 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: up creating a sense of of distance and a sense 473 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: of alienation within NATO, and then he goes the Helsinki 474 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: and his chummy chummy shoulder to shoulder with the Russian 475 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: president that's that's the last signal that I think the 476 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: United States President should be sending to UH to European allies. 477 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: Dr Cupchen as a senior Fellow at the Council on 478 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: Foreign Relations and also professor at the Wolfsh School of 479 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: Foreign Service at Georgetown University. I know you served on 480 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: the staff of the National Security Council in the Obama administration. 481 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: Do you really believe that this is the end of 482 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: the American era? I think that we don't know yet. 483 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: I think that it's possible that historians will look back 484 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: at nineteen and say that was the day, that was 485 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: the moment that the order that was built during the 486 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: tough years after World War Two came undone. It's also 487 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: possible that we're that we're witnessing a detour, that the 488 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: populism here in the UK, in Germany, in Poland and 489 00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: Hungary and Turkey is a response to this location, a globalization, 490 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: to the onset of the digital economy. And we'll figure 491 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: out how to adjust to this shift, just as we 492 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: figured out how to adjust to previous shifts. But I 493 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: don't think that we should be polly anish about the 494 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: scope of the changes that are going on within our society, 495 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: and I do hope that whether it's two years from 496 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: now or six years from now or whatever, that that 497 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: we do see the pendulum swing back in the direction 498 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: of political centrism political moderation. Thank you very much, Charles Cupchin, 499 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: Senior Fellow counsel on Foreign Relations, also Professor of International 500 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: Affairs at Georgetown University. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg 501 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 502 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at 503 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: Tom Keane before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. 504 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio.