WEBVTT - Ep109 "Are you one mind or many drives?" with Jordan Peterson 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.920 You consider yourself an individual, but are you in fact 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:13.400 built of rivaling neural networks? Can we see ourselves as 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.880 a collection of personalities? How do we manage the conflict 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.480 between different drives in our brains? And what does this 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.600 have to do with deities or literature or maturation? And 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.000 what did Friedrich Nietzsche mean when he said that every 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:36.839 drive we have wants to quote represent just itself as 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:41.800 the ultimate purpose of existence and the legitimate master of 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.879 all the other drives, Or as he also put it, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:50.040 quote every drive wants to be master and it attempts 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.560 to philosophize in that spirit. What exactly does that mean? 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.640 Welcome to inner Cosmos with me David Eagle. I'm a 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.720 neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these episodes we 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.840 sail deeply into our three pound universe to uncover some 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:28.000 of the most surprising aspects of our lives. Today's episode 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.120 is about how we are built of complex circuitry. Each 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.440 of us is not like a simple computer program, but 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.400 instead a machine built on conflict. This is a topic 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.760 I have loved and written about for many years, and 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.120 in today's podcast, I talk with a colleague who equally 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.160 loves this topic from the point of view of clinical psychology. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.560 Today we talk with Jordan Peterson. He's one of our 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.000 most well known psychologists. He was formerly at Harvard University 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.400 and the University of Toronto and has now started his 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.840 own educational platform called the Peterson Academy. You likely know 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.200 Jordan from his books which have found wide audiences, like 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.679 Twelve Rules for Life and his newest book, We Who 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.400 Wrestle with God. Jordan and I are going to visit 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.200 some key points in our conversation. The first is that 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.440 as we age, we find ways to make these networks 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.520 in our brain work together better, and this is in 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:32.400 a sense, the definition of maturation. We'll also talk about 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:37.720 the spectrum from a basic drive like reproduction to something 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.160 richer that we might call a personality. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:41.880 Will come to the. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.800 Role of setting contracts with yourself to wrangle the behavior 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.720 of the networks. And finally, we're going to discuss the 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.560 role of literature and religion in setting up a way 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.360 to direct the conflicting networks by giving them an external 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.519 exemplar to look to with no out further ado. Here 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:09.120 is my conversation with Jordan Peterson. So, Jordan, I'm very 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.960 interested in how we are a collection of different things 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:14.000 going on on the inside. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.799 We use the term individual when we talk about. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.280 Ourselves, but in fact we're made up of many different 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.240 drives or personalities or neural networks. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.720 This is what we'll get into. So in my. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.280 Book in Cognito, I talked about as a team of rivals. 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.600 I know you think about things as a collection of personalities. 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.160 I'd like us to get into that. So how do 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.560 you think about what we're made of? 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.760 Who we are? I like the metaphor of personality might 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.520 be deeper than a metaphor. It might just be a 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.920 description because it works on a variety of different levels. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.560 It adds sophistication to the idea of drive because a 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:58.120 drive has an algorithmic and mechanical connotation to it. But 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:03.040 a personality has perceptions, emotions, and it has ideas, and 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:08.720 it has opinions, and our internal motivational states are like that. So, 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:14.520 like sexual the desire for sexual gratification brings with it 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.279 a perceptual framework. Obviously, the same with anger, the same 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:18.800 with hunger. 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.080 And perceptual framework means what we notice exactly, how we 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.880 prioritize our attention, and how we sequence our actions. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.760 Yeah, yeah, But then there's a there's a deeper level too, 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.880 which which I think you'll you'll find interesting. So I 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:34.800 stimpend a lot of time studying the work of a 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.560 historian of religions named Merche Eliada, and Eliada described a 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:47.440 pattern he saw across cultures which was probably the psychological 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:56.799 record of integration of tribes across time. So imagine every 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:02.719 tribe has a value structure. It's usually represented by a 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.000 superordinate deity or a set of deities. Okay, now, and 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.240 one tribe meets another and they start to interact. Well, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.760 that often involves war and certainly involves discussion. It involves 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:20.479 cooperation and competition. But there's a cognitive element to that too. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.640 So as the cultures integrate, the ideas integrate. Well, that's 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.640 represented in the mythological literature as a battle between gods 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:33.080 in heaven, right, And one of Aliata's points was that 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:37.120 the battle between these gods, so these are personalities, tends 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.839 towards a monotheism. Across time, as multiple cultures integrate, they 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.320 integrate towards a monotheism. You might say, well, what's the 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.960 evidence for that. It's like, well, mono implies unity, integration, 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.680 applies unity. If culture is into penetrate and there's no unity, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.839 they're not integrated. They might be occupied the same territory, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.080 but they're not integrated. Interesting, and I think there's a 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:04.480 parallel between that war of personalities that's represented, let's say, 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.800 in the mythological literature, and the integration of fundamental motivational 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.960 states in the process of maturation within a culture. I 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.799 think those are the same thing. And if that's the case, 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.200 then while you see a unification of phenomena across a 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.560 very wide range of inquiries. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.400 Let's talk about what we mean by integration, because in fact, 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.640 what we have is a battling of these networks all 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.080 the time. Is certainly when you're a child, but even 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.640 as you grow older and you set the path for 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.880 your life and so on, you're always battling with yourself, 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.480 as in, oh, I should need the case, I should 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:38.600 need the cake, I should go do this thing. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:39.279 I shouldn't do the thing. 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.560 And so you can cuss it yourself, you can conjole yourself, 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.640 you can contract with yourself. You can get angry at yourself. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.400 And the question is who is getting angry at whom? 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.360 That's for sure, right, So in a sense, we're still 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.320 like the polytheism on the infinite. 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.159 We never quite made it to a monotheism. Okay, okay, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.839 So I'd like to address that well simultaneously addressing something 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.280 that you said at the beginning of this discussion. So 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.920 you talked about us as individuals who are at war 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.840 with our internal states. Let's say, or we're a battleground 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.000 of warring internal states, and so we're made out of 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.800 parts and we coalesce at the individual level. But I 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:23.160 would say that's not exactly, that's not sufficient. That's a 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.800 necessary description, but it's not sufficient because the idea of 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.040 integration levels doesn't stop at the level of the individual. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.120 Because I could say, for example, well you're married, so 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.200 now you're a part of that. That's another superordinate structure. 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.720 It's a real structure. It's not a structure that's embodied 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.240 in a single body, but it's a structure that's embodied 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.320 in two very closely interacting bodies. So that makes another 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.400 it's a metabody. But then that's integrated in a family, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.160 and that's integrated in a community, and then a town, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.520 and then a state, and then a nation, and that 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.560 and even the level of the nation isn't necessarily the 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.720 highest level of integration. And to identify the individual as 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.840 arbitrarily as the pinnacle of the integration process is an error, 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.680 I think. And this actually that addresses the problem of 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:19.720 self regulation. So you're not integrated properly when your wife 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:25.760 hates you, right, So a huge, a huge source of 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.600 information that we use to determine whether we've integrated our 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.960 internal states properly isn't whether they're functioning for us as individuals. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.560 It's whether they allow us to integrate ourselves harmoniously into 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.040 a marriage, into a family, into a community, into a town. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.920 And then the measure of integration becomes not the existence 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.880 of the individual, but the existence of harmony across every 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.720 single one of those levels simultaneously. And so that harmony 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.120 is what we're striving for. I think that harmony is 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.800 exemplified by music, by the way, I think so well. 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.480 Music does the same thing. It takes diverse elements and 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.720 it organizes them into hire and higher order integrated hierarchies. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.120 And you can see people acting this out when they dance, 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.880 like to an orchestra, of all the diverse players who 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.840 are doing the same thing, they're integrated. And then you 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.760 see people moving themselves in couples and then in a 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.600 community in relationship to the music. It's a it's a 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.040 model for this, it's a heavenly hierarchy. That that's the 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.720 way you express it in terms of ideas that are derived, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.400 let's say, from the history of religion. And so I 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.200 think we've made a big mistake as psychologists. Assuming it's 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.320 because we're basically liberal Protestants in our orientation. We assume 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.280 that the individual is the pinnacle of the integration process. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:42.800 But that's not it's not accurate. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.480 I would say, there's there's other reasons why we why 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.880 concert on the individual there, because that that's you know, 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.080 bound off, it's got borders around it. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.040 It lives and dies. So this three pound. 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:56.600 Brain will at some point go away, but the other 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.040 brains in the community will stick around. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.960 That sort of so it's a natural place. But of course, 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.520 every reason to assume that it exists, right, whether it 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.800 exists as the pinnacle, that's the other question. 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.959 Okay, fair enough, But what it's trying to do within 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:15.800 its three pound universe is figure out all these tasks. Okay, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.520 how do I work within a community? How do I 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.079 work within my larger nation state. 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:19.319 And so on. 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.480 But I think we can corner it to that three 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.920 pound organ and then talk about what are the neural 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.400 networks in here? 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.640 Okay, but what Okay, that's possible, but I'm not thoroughly 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:36.000 convinced of it, because I think it's reasonable, Like, why 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.439 not assume that the neural network that's made out of 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:43.160 a communication a communicating group is like it's it is 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.960 part of the work, and it's certainly moving information back 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.440 and forth, and it like it has an existence, like 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.840 it's not as obvious to our perceptions as the embodied 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.720 form of an individual, right, and so it's more abstracted 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:57.960 in that sense. But I don't see that it's of 0:10:58.000 --> 0:10:59.400 a lower order of reality. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.160 I totally agree. Okay, it is a network inside large network. 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:08.160 That's absolutely right. But as a neuroscientist, that's the that's 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:09.360 the level that I choose. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.480 As a fair sociologist, yeah, fair enough. 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.959 So within that you've got these different networks. One of 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:17.960 the things that you and I have talked about this previously, 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.440 but this question about Okay, So, as Frederick Nictzschi said, 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:29.480 each drive philosophizes in its own spirit, meaning when I'm hungry, 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.920 when I'm angry, when I'm happy, when I'm addicted, when 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.800 I'm addicted, these things don't just drive me, but they 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.000 actually have their whole story. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.120 They tell me, oh, this is true, this is the right. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.440 And Nietzsche had a what do you call this perspectivism, 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.040 I think, which is this idea that this is why 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.880 it's hard to say what a single truth is because 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.679 you've got all these different drives, which we might call 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:58.280 personalities and whatever, but you've got these different things that 0:11:58.440 --> 0:11:59.480 tell you different. 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.720 Truths also have different criteria for truth exactly right. And 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.880 this is something that pragmatists under William James were wrestling 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:11.640 with at the end of the eighteen hundreds. So the pragmatists, 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.640 who saw analogies very directly between their philosophical work and 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.360 Darwinian theories, really derived a new theory of truth. And 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.040 the new theory of truth was something like truth good enough, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.000 like something is truth, it's good enough as a tool 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.400 to obtain a certain end right. And it's an interesting 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.840 definition because it takes into account the fact that none 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.440 of our truths are ultimate right, all our truths are proximate. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.080 And then you might say, because we're ignorant. We're bounded 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.960 by our ignorance. Nothing we know is absolute. So then 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.319 you say, well, how do you know that something's true? 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:51.520 And the answer is something like it functions in relationship 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.760 to its intended purpose, in relationship to a goal. Now 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.200 that lays open to the question of what our true goals. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.760 But that's okay for now. And when a drive philosophizes, 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.720 it's looking for the truth that enable it to obtain 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.720 its end. Yes, right, right, that's its criteria for truth. Yes, right, 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.120 this is a good enough argument to win the battle 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.760 with my wife. Right, it's true enough for what so 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.400 I can dominate her? Let's say, right, right, right, yes, exactly. 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.640 And so the thing that you and I have discussed 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.520 before is the possibility that instead of each of these 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.640 drives actually owning its own personality, it might be sort 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.280 of reaching out to other places and saying, you know, 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.640 when I think about what I want to get out 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.800 of the pre filled cortex, or you know, what I 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.480 want to get in terms of words to use in 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.560 this argument or something, it's drawing on these other mechanisms, 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:43.559 these subsystems that are there. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.400 But here's the thing. The question is. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.400 About the conflict in these things and the way that 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.720 these things battle with each other. So how do you 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.840 think about the way these battle and the way as 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.320 we mature we are working these battles out, We're working 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:03.360 out how to get these things. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.679 Well, I think that is the job of the cortex. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.080 But the cortex is highly socialized, right, so you can 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.280 think about it neurologically, it's the job of the cortex. 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:19.040 But then the cortex is programmed by these larger networks, right, definitely. Okay, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.160 So what happens to you if you're well socialized is 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:27.960 that these underlying motivational systems arrange themselves in the game 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.240 so that each of them gets what they want at 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.120 often enough, in a manner that doesn't interfere with the 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.520 future or makes the future better even and in a 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.880 manner that allows for the benefits of social community. Right. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.520 So there's a very tight set of constraints, and I 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.800 think that I think the developmental psychologist PHA probably modeled 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.440 this better than anyone else I know of, and he 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.720 put it in terms of it's not game theory exactly, 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.480 because game theory is a technical endeavor of its own. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.800 But PSA spent an awful lot of time analyzing the 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.560 structure of games as the prototype of both maturity and 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.200 of socialization. And a game for PSA, a game is 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.320 a voluntarily shared aime with agreed upon procedures, the voluntary 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.200 part being very very important. And I would say, you know, 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.720 if you're trying to integrate rage and lust, let's say 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.840 you can use pain as a suppressive or fear as 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.920 a suppressive mechanism, even neurologically, like as a parent, you 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.320 could punish your child viciously every time they were aggressive, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.840 and that aggression would come under the inhibitory control of fear, 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.320 and you could call that socialization. But a much more 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.320 effective way to do that is to entice and invite 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.360 the child to integrate. That integration into something like higher 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.480 order competition towards a distal goal. And that's what you do. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.160 For example, if you trained a competitive child, sot aggressive 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:05.440 child to be an athletic victor, so the aggression is 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.960 now directed towards a social aim, right, because that would 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.160 be the game, and the aggression actually becomes something that's 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.920 good rather than bad. Because if you have a sports team, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.240 you want your players to want to win, you want 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.920 them to be competitive. But then if they're well socialized. 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:24.880 It's like aggression within rules towards an aim name would 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.800 be the victory of the game, but not just that, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.840 the well being of the team, the growth of the 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.320 team across time, the ability of the team to get 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.520 along with other teams, and the generalization of that to 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:37.960 a broader range of games. That's what it would be 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.360 to be a good sport, for example. So's that's a 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:46.880 game like model of motivational integration towards a higher order ethos, right, 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.960 future oriented, community oriented, right exactly. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.160 So we're putting we learn as we grow from a 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.760 child who has these different drives, we're learning how to 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.920 make these cooperate for communal reasons. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.000 Yeah, yeah, and for the future, yeah exactly. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.200 The thing that's interesting the most is how these things 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.400 stay rivaling our whole lives and how we work. 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:26.960 Out strategies for this. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.240 So one thing you and I've talked about before is 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.000 the Ulysses contract, where you say, you know, I know 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:34.920 I want to do this kind of thing in the future, 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.000 and so I'm gonna contract. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:37.840 I'm going to make some. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.600 Unbreakable pact where I can't break it, and I have 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:43.600 to do this thing in the future. 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:44.919 But I'm Also, I want to. 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.960 Talk to you about story and religion and how those 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:52.879 can be ways that steer us when we are thinking 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.439 about these internal conflicts. 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:59.720 Well, I was interested in your Eleas's contract model, but 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.199 the model that sprung to mind for me when you 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.240 walk through that was the Old Testament model of covenant, 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.359 because covenant is actually contract. So unpack that. Well, the 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.400 relationship with the divine in the Old Testament is characterized 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.760 as a covenant. That's a contract. Okay, it's a sacrificial contract, 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.160 which is very specific kind of contract. And I think 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:26.320 the sacrificial contract is the basis of maturity and community. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.800 I think it is by definition. Well, and what does 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.080 that official mean? Like means I'll give up something now 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.640 to get something later, got it? Oh? Okay, that's the sacrifice. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.440 There's no difference between that and work, right, because when 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.240 I work, I sacrifice the present to the future. Yeah, right, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.600 that work is sacrificial. Okay. Now, once this is a 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.880 matter of definition. Once you know that, a very interesting 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.600 question enters the stage. You might say, which is what's 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:58.520 the most effective form of sacrifice? Right? And the biblical 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:04.760 stories examine that from every conceivable angle. So, for example, 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.680 one of the very early stories in the biblical Corpus 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:09.960 is the story of canaan Abel, and it's the story 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.879 of two patterns of sacrifice, one of which succeeds at 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.480 least in the divine sense, and the other which fails cataclysmically. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.639 And that's the sacrifice, the false sacrifice of kan. It 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:25.800 sets up a pattern of sacrifice. One is immature, prideful, usurping, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:31.280 and self serving, and it degenerates into murder and genocide, right, 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.400 and then the flood comes. That's how those stories are arranged. 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:40.400 The other is the sacrifice of able and able sacrifices 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:42.640 of the are those that are pleasing to God. Well, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.760 that opens the next question, which is well, exactly as 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.240 we pointed out earlier. Once you know that the foundation 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.520 of community and the future is sacrifice, the only question 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:58.679 that remains is what's the appropriate sacrifice? And that as 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.080 a very complex question. There's other ordering possibilities, like the 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:08.679 postmodernist notion essentially is that power is the uniting meta narrative. 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.840 What's an example of that. Well, the Marxist presupposition that 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:19.440 society is as a zero sum competition between the oppressor 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.800 and the oppressed. On the economic plan, that's been generalized 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:27.000 by the neo Marxist let's say to be what a 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.640 multi dimensional battle of power? And you know, you can 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.680 see some truth in that when you think about, for example, 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.760 if you're thinking about the solution to the problem of 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:42.840 rivalry only as competition, as unbridled competition, but as soon 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.000 as you understand that there's bridled forms of competition, maybe 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.679 that's why you're interested in the Ulysses contract because that 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:56.679 puts structure around rivalry. Right, how do you structure rivalry? 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.000 So maybe that's why it captured your attention so intensely, 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.560 because that's a crucial question, right, how do you delimit 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.320 the demands of power? M'd say, that's another way of 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.679 looking at it. Yeah, that's right, And I'm interested. I mean, 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.440 what's your take on the role of story in sayings? 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.280 So I've always got all these possible paths that i 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.600 could take, and I'm always facing temptation. 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:20.359 Everyone is. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.320 And the question is, you know, do story in general, 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.480 biblical stories or otherwise give us a sense of Oh, 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.359 here's a model that I hadn't thought of before, and 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.520 I can look up to this character and I can 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.320 or that's right, and navigate myself accordingly. 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.919 Well, okay, so a story is a description of a 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.439 hierarchy of value. That's an embodied hierarchy of value. Okay. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.760 So when God assigns a role to add him, he says, 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:55.840 your role is to name, identify, and subdu, and subdu 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:59.480 means to put everything in its proper place. Okay. So 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.200 someone's character is the manner in which they put things 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.399 into place, right, their priority. When you go watch a movie, 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:10.080 what you see is the embodiment of a structure of prioritization. 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.080 This person has an aim, they have a strategy, They 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.320 have some things for them come first. That's the things 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.320 they attend to. That's what you're watching. When you watch 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:24.040 the character, you reflect the perceptions and the emotions, and 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.199 you observe the success of the strategy. Right. So what 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.679 a story presents to you is a hierarchy of intentional 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.720 and action priority, and it's extremely valuable. And then you 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.160 can test them out. And I say, that's the technical 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:40.000 definition of a story. And so we're always looking for 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.720 a better story, and the story would be the structure 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.280 that integrates the conflicts. That's another way to say that. 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.439 That's really lovely, right, because I always think about the 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:52.600 story as what always has grabbed me is the way 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:56.760 that we slip so easily into characters, into. 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:58.200 Story in other ways. Yeah, right. 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:00.520 Neuroscientists we study the brain. We say, look, here's how 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:02.880 the visual system works. You have photons that the retina. 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:04.919 You know, you figure out what you're looking at, what 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.200 you're hearing from. But in fact, what brains do most 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:10.280 of the time is they don't care at all about 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:11.200 what's in front of them. 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.320 They're thinking about other things. They're simulating possible future. 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.880 Is that reminiscing about the past, or they're slipping into 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:20.679 literature and absolutely the character. So I love what you 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.040 said about the reason you become the characters. You get 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:24.360 to experience the world from a. 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:29.960 Different attentional exactly exactly, it's a different structure. Well look, look, 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.320 so a typical story element, let's say, in an action 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.080 romantic action adventure movie, is do you save the woman 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.800 you love or do you serve your country? Right, that's 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:42.640 very so you can see there's both of those are 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.800 very well developed hierarchies of value. There's real reasons to 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.480 prioritize the person you love, and there's real reasons to 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.920 prioritize your nation. Okay, so now what do you do 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.760 when those are head to hit? Well, the character of 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:59.840 the protagonist determines the answer to that question, right right, right, right. 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.160 So see gets to live in those shoes and see 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.800 what he does, and see what that resonates with you. 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.760 Yeah, and you can see whether that's an uphill that's 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.399