1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: You consider yourself an individual, but are you in fact 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: built of rivaling neural networks? Can we see ourselves as 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: a collection of personalities? How do we manage the conflict 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: between different drives in our brains? And what does this 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: have to do with deities or literature or maturation? And 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: what did Friedrich Nietzsche mean when he said that every 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: drive we have wants to quote represent just itself as 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: the ultimate purpose of existence and the legitimate master of 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: all the other drives, Or as he also put it, 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: quote every drive wants to be master and it attempts 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: to philosophize in that spirit. What exactly does that mean? 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to inner Cosmos with me David Eagle. I'm a 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these episodes we 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: sail deeply into our three pound universe to uncover some 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: of the most surprising aspects of our lives. Today's episode 16 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: is about how we are built of complex circuitry. Each 17 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: of us is not like a simple computer program, but 18 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: instead a machine built on conflict. This is a topic 19 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: I have loved and written about for many years, and 20 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: in today's podcast, I talk with a colleague who equally 21 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: loves this topic from the point of view of clinical psychology. 22 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: Today we talk with Jordan Peterson. He's one of our 23 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: most well known psychologists. He was formerly at Harvard University 24 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: and the University of Toronto and has now started his 25 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: own educational platform called the Peterson Academy. You likely know 26 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: Jordan from his books which have found wide audiences, like 27 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 1: Twelve Rules for Life and his newest book, We Who 28 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: Wrestle with God. Jordan and I are going to visit 29 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: some key points in our conversation. The first is that 30 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: as we age, we find ways to make these networks 31 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: in our brain work together better, and this is in 32 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: a sense, the definition of maturation. We'll also talk about 33 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: the spectrum from a basic drive like reproduction to something 34 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: richer that we might call a personality. 35 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: Will come to the. 36 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: Role of setting contracts with yourself to wrangle the behavior 37 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: of the networks. And finally, we're going to discuss the 38 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: role of literature and religion in setting up a way 39 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: to direct the conflicting networks by giving them an external 40 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: exemplar to look to with no out further ado. Here 41 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: is my conversation with Jordan Peterson. So, Jordan, I'm very 42 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: interested in how we are a collection of different things 43 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: going on on the inside. 44 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: We use the term individual when we talk about. 45 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: Ourselves, but in fact we're made up of many different 46 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: drives or personalities or neural networks. 47 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: This is what we'll get into. So in my. 48 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: Book in Cognito, I talked about as a team of rivals. 49 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: I know you think about things as a collection of personalities. 50 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: I'd like us to get into that. So how do 51 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: you think about what we're made of? 52 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: Who we are? I like the metaphor of personality might 53 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: be deeper than a metaphor. It might just be a 54 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: description because it works on a variety of different levels. 55 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: It adds sophistication to the idea of drive because a 56 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: drive has an algorithmic and mechanical connotation to it. But 57 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: a personality has perceptions, emotions, and it has ideas, and 58 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: it has opinions, and our internal motivational states are like that. So, 59 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: like sexual the desire for sexual gratification brings with it 60 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: a perceptual framework. Obviously, the same with anger, the same 61 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: with hunger. 62 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: And perceptual framework means what we notice exactly, how we 63 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: prioritize our attention, and how we sequence our actions. 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But then there's a there's a deeper level too, 65 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: which which I think you'll you'll find interesting. So I 66 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: stimpend a lot of time studying the work of a 67 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: historian of religions named Merche Eliada, and Eliada described a 68 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: pattern he saw across cultures which was probably the psychological 69 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 2: record of integration of tribes across time. So imagine every 70 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: tribe has a value structure. It's usually represented by a 71 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: superordinate deity or a set of deities. Okay, now, and 72 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: one tribe meets another and they start to interact. Well, 73 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: that often involves war and certainly involves discussion. It involves 74 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: cooperation and competition. But there's a cognitive element to that too. 75 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: So as the cultures integrate, the ideas integrate. Well, that's 76 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: represented in the mythological literature as a battle between gods 77 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: in heaven, right, And one of Aliata's points was that 78 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: the battle between these gods, so these are personalities, tends 79 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 2: towards a monotheism. Across time, as multiple cultures integrate, they 80 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: integrate towards a monotheism. You might say, well, what's the 81 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: evidence for that. It's like, well, mono implies unity, integration, 82 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: applies unity. If culture is into penetrate and there's no unity, 83 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: they're not integrated. They might be occupied the same territory, 84 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: but they're not integrated. Interesting, and I think there's a 85 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: parallel between that war of personalities that's represented, let's say, 86 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: in the mythological literature, and the integration of fundamental motivational 87 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: states in the process of maturation within a culture. I 88 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 2: think those are the same thing. And if that's the case, 89 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: then while you see a unification of phenomena across a 90 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: very wide range of inquiries. 91 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what we mean by integration, because in fact, 92 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: what we have is a battling of these networks all 93 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: the time. Is certainly when you're a child, but even 94 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: as you grow older and you set the path for 95 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: your life and so on, you're always battling with yourself, 96 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: as in, oh, I should need the case, I should 97 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: need the cake, I should go do this thing. 98 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: I shouldn't do the thing. 99 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: And so you can cuss it yourself, you can conjole yourself, 100 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: you can contract with yourself. You can get angry at yourself. 101 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: And the question is who is getting angry at whom? 102 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: That's for sure, right, So in a sense, we're still 103 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: like the polytheism on the infinite. 104 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: We never quite made it to a monotheism. Okay, okay, 105 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: So I'd like to address that well simultaneously addressing something 106 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: that you said at the beginning of this discussion. So 107 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: you talked about us as individuals who are at war 108 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: with our internal states. Let's say, or we're a battleground 109 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: of warring internal states, and so we're made out of 110 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: parts and we coalesce at the individual level. But I 111 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: would say that's not exactly, that's not sufficient. That's a 112 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: necessary description, but it's not sufficient because the idea of 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: integration levels doesn't stop at the level of the individual. 114 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: Because I could say, for example, well you're married, so 115 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: now you're a part of that. That's another superordinate structure. 116 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: It's a real structure. It's not a structure that's embodied 117 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: in a single body, but it's a structure that's embodied 118 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: in two very closely interacting bodies. So that makes another 119 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: it's a metabody. But then that's integrated in a family, 120 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: and that's integrated in a community, and then a town, 121 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: and then a state, and then a nation, and that 122 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: and even the level of the nation isn't necessarily the 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: highest level of integration. And to identify the individual as 124 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: arbitrarily as the pinnacle of the integration process is an error, 125 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: I think. And this actually that addresses the problem of 126 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: self regulation. So you're not integrated properly when your wife 127 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: hates you, right, So a huge, a huge source of 128 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: information that we use to determine whether we've integrated our 129 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: internal states properly isn't whether they're functioning for us as individuals. 130 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: It's whether they allow us to integrate ourselves harmoniously into 131 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: a marriage, into a family, into a community, into a town. 132 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: And then the measure of integration becomes not the existence 133 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: of the individual, but the existence of harmony across every 134 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 2: single one of those levels simultaneously. And so that harmony 135 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: is what we're striving for. I think that harmony is 136 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: exemplified by music, by the way, I think so well. 137 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: Music does the same thing. It takes diverse elements and 138 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: it organizes them into hire and higher order integrated hierarchies. 139 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: And you can see people acting this out when they dance, 140 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: like to an orchestra, of all the diverse players who 141 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: are doing the same thing, they're integrated. And then you 142 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: see people moving themselves in couples and then in a 143 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: community in relationship to the music. It's a it's a 144 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: model for this, it's a heavenly hierarchy. That that's the 145 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: way you express it in terms of ideas that are derived, 146 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: let's say, from the history of religion. And so I 147 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: think we've made a big mistake as psychologists. Assuming it's 148 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: because we're basically liberal Protestants in our orientation. We assume 149 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: that the individual is the pinnacle of the integration process. 150 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: But that's not it's not accurate. 151 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: I would say, there's there's other reasons why we why 152 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: concert on the individual there, because that that's you know, 153 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: bound off, it's got borders around it. 154 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: It lives and dies. So this three pound. 155 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: Brain will at some point go away, but the other 156 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: brains in the community will stick around. 157 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: That sort of so it's a natural place. But of course, 158 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: every reason to assume that it exists, right, whether it 159 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: exists as the pinnacle, that's the other question. 160 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, But what it's trying to do within 161 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: its three pound universe is figure out all these tasks. Okay, 162 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: how do I work within a community? How do I 163 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: work within my larger nation state. 164 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 2: And so on. 165 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: But I think we can corner it to that three 166 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: pound organ and then talk about what are the neural 167 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: networks in here? 168 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: Okay, but what Okay, that's possible, but I'm not thoroughly 169 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: convinced of it, because I think it's reasonable, Like, why 170 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 2: not assume that the neural network that's made out of 171 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: a communication a communicating group is like it's it is 172 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: part of the work, and it's certainly moving information back 173 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: and forth, and it like it has an existence, like 174 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: it's not as obvious to our perceptions as the embodied 175 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: form of an individual, right, and so it's more abstracted 176 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: in that sense. But I don't see that it's of 177 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: a lower order of reality. 178 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: I totally agree. Okay, it is a network inside large network. 179 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: That's absolutely right. But as a neuroscientist, that's the that's 180 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: the level that I choose. 181 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: As a fair sociologist, yeah, fair enough. 182 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: So within that you've got these different networks. One of 183 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: the things that you and I have talked about this previously, 184 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: but this question about Okay, So, as Frederick Nictzschi said, 185 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: each drive philosophizes in its own spirit, meaning when I'm hungry, 186 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: when I'm angry, when I'm happy, when I'm addicted, when 187 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm addicted, these things don't just drive me, but they 188 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: actually have their whole story. 189 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: They tell me, oh, this is true, this is the right. 190 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: And Nietzsche had a what do you call this perspectivism, 191 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: I think, which is this idea that this is why 192 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: it's hard to say what a single truth is because 193 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: you've got all these different drives, which we might call 194 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: personalities and whatever, but you've got these different things that 195 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: tell you different. 196 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: Truths also have different criteria for truth exactly right. And 197 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: this is something that pragmatists under William James were wrestling 198 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: with at the end of the eighteen hundreds. So the pragmatists, 199 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: who saw analogies very directly between their philosophical work and 200 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: Darwinian theories, really derived a new theory of truth. And 201 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: the new theory of truth was something like truth good enough, 202 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: like something is truth, it's good enough as a tool 203 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: to obtain a certain end right. And it's an interesting 204 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: definition because it takes into account the fact that none 205 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: of our truths are ultimate right, all our truths are proximate. 206 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: And then you might say, because we're ignorant. We're bounded 207 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: by our ignorance. Nothing we know is absolute. So then 208 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 2: you say, well, how do you know that something's true? 209 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: And the answer is something like it functions in relationship 210 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: to its intended purpose, in relationship to a goal. Now 211 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: that lays open to the question of what our true goals. 212 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: But that's okay for now. And when a drive philosophizes, 213 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: it's looking for the truth that enable it to obtain 214 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: its end. Yes, right, right, that's its criteria for truth. Yes, right, 215 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: this is a good enough argument to win the battle 216 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: with my wife. Right, it's true enough for what so 217 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: I can dominate her? Let's say, right, right, right, yes, exactly. 218 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: And so the thing that you and I have discussed 219 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: before is the possibility that instead of each of these 220 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: drives actually owning its own personality, it might be sort 221 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: of reaching out to other places and saying, you know, 222 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: when I think about what I want to get out 223 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: of the pre filled cortex, or you know, what I 224 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: want to get in terms of words to use in 225 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: this argument or something, it's drawing on these other mechanisms, 226 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: these subsystems that are there. 227 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. The question is. 228 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: About the conflict in these things and the way that 229 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: these things battle with each other. So how do you 230 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: think about the way these battle and the way as 231 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: we mature we are working these battles out, We're working 232 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: out how to get these things. 233 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: Well, I think that is the job of the cortex. 234 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: But the cortex is highly socialized, right, so you can 235 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: think about it neurologically, it's the job of the cortex. 236 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: But then the cortex is programmed by these larger networks, right, definitely. Okay, 237 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: So what happens to you if you're well socialized is 238 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: that these underlying motivational systems arrange themselves in the game 239 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: so that each of them gets what they want at 240 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: often enough, in a manner that doesn't interfere with the 241 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: future or makes the future better even and in a 242 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: manner that allows for the benefits of social community. Right. 243 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: So there's a very tight set of constraints, and I 244 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: think that I think the developmental psychologist PHA probably modeled 245 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: this better than anyone else I know of, and he 246 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: put it in terms of it's not game theory exactly, 247 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: because game theory is a technical endeavor of its own. 248 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: But PSA spent an awful lot of time analyzing the 249 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: structure of games as the prototype of both maturity and 250 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: of socialization. And a game for PSA, a game is 251 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: a voluntarily shared aime with agreed upon procedures, the voluntary 252 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: part being very very important. And I would say, you know, 253 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: if you're trying to integrate rage and lust, let's say 254 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: you can use pain as a suppressive or fear as 255 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: a suppressive mechanism, even neurologically, like as a parent, you 256 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: could punish your child viciously every time they were aggressive, 257 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: and that aggression would come under the inhibitory control of fear, 258 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: and you could call that socialization. But a much more 259 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: effective way to do that is to entice and invite 260 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: the child to integrate. That integration into something like higher 261 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: order competition towards a distal goal. And that's what you do. 262 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: For example, if you trained a competitive child, sot aggressive 263 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: child to be an athletic victor, so the aggression is 264 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: now directed towards a social aim, right, because that would 265 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: be the game, and the aggression actually becomes something that's 266 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: good rather than bad. Because if you have a sports team, 267 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: you want your players to want to win, you want 268 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: them to be competitive. But then if they're well socialized. 269 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: It's like aggression within rules towards an aim name would 270 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: be the victory of the game, but not just that, 271 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: the well being of the team, the growth of the 272 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: team across time, the ability of the team to get 273 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: along with other teams, and the generalization of that to 274 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: a broader range of games. That's what it would be 275 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: to be a good sport, for example. So's that's a 276 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: game like model of motivational integration towards a higher order ethos, right, 277 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: future oriented, community oriented, right exactly. 278 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: So we're putting we learn as we grow from a 279 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: child who has these different drives, we're learning how to 280 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: make these cooperate for communal reasons. 281 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and for the future, yeah exactly. 282 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: The thing that's interesting the most is how these things 283 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: stay rivaling our whole lives and how we work. 284 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: Out strategies for this. 285 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: So one thing you and I've talked about before is 286 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: the Ulysses contract, where you say, you know, I know 287 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: I want to do this kind of thing in the future, 288 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: and so I'm gonna contract. 289 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to make some. 290 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: Unbreakable pact where I can't break it, and I have 291 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: to do this thing in the future. 292 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: But I'm Also, I want to. 293 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: Talk to you about story and religion and how those 294 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: can be ways that steer us when we are thinking 295 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: about these internal conflicts. 296 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: Well, I was interested in your Eleas's contract model, but 297 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 2: the model that sprung to mind for me when you 298 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: walk through that was the Old Testament model of covenant, 299 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: because covenant is actually contract. So unpack that. Well, the 300 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: relationship with the divine in the Old Testament is characterized 301 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: as a covenant. That's a contract. Okay, it's a sacrificial contract, 302 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 2: which is very specific kind of contract. And I think 303 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: the sacrificial contract is the basis of maturity and community. 304 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: I think it is by definition. Well, and what does 305 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: that official mean? Like means I'll give up something now 306 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: to get something later, got it? Oh? Okay, that's the sacrifice. 307 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: There's no difference between that and work, right, because when 308 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: I work, I sacrifice the present to the future. Yeah, right, 309 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: that work is sacrificial. Okay. Now, once this is a 310 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: matter of definition. Once you know that, a very interesting 311 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: question enters the stage. You might say, which is what's 312 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: the most effective form of sacrifice? Right? And the biblical 313 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: stories examine that from every conceivable angle. So, for example, 314 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: one of the very early stories in the biblical Corpus 315 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: is the story of canaan Abel, and it's the story 316 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: of two patterns of sacrifice, one of which succeeds at 317 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: least in the divine sense, and the other which fails cataclysmically. 318 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: And that's the sacrifice, the false sacrifice of kan. It 319 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: sets up a pattern of sacrifice. One is immature, prideful, usurping, 320 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: and self serving, and it degenerates into murder and genocide, right, 321 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: and then the flood comes. That's how those stories are arranged. 322 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 2: The other is the sacrifice of able and able sacrifices 323 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: of the are those that are pleasing to God. Well, 324 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: that opens the next question, which is well, exactly as 325 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: we pointed out earlier. Once you know that the foundation 326 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: of community and the future is sacrifice, the only question 327 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: that remains is what's the appropriate sacrifice? And that as 328 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: a very complex question. There's other ordering possibilities, like the 329 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: postmodernist notion essentially is that power is the uniting meta narrative. 330 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: What's an example of that. Well, the Marxist presupposition that 331 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: society is as a zero sum competition between the oppressor 332 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: and the oppressed. On the economic plan, that's been generalized 333 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: by the neo Marxist let's say to be what a 334 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: multi dimensional battle of power? And you know, you can 335 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: see some truth in that when you think about, for example, 336 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: if you're thinking about the solution to the problem of 337 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: rivalry only as competition, as unbridled competition, but as soon 338 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: as you understand that there's bridled forms of competition, maybe 339 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 2: that's why you're interested in the Ulysses contract because that 340 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 2: puts structure around rivalry. Right, how do you structure rivalry? 341 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: So maybe that's why it captured your attention so intensely, 342 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: because that's a crucial question, right, how do you delimit 343 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: the demands of power? M'd say, that's another way of 344 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 2: looking at it. Yeah, that's right, And I'm interested. I mean, 345 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: what's your take on the role of story in sayings? 346 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: So I've always got all these possible paths that i 347 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: could take, and I'm always facing temptation. 348 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: Everyone is. 349 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: And the question is, you know, do story in general, 350 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: biblical stories or otherwise give us a sense of Oh, 351 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: here's a model that I hadn't thought of before, and 352 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: I can look up to this character and I can 353 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: or that's right, and navigate myself accordingly. 354 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so a story is a description of a 355 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 2: hierarchy of value. That's an embodied hierarchy of value. Okay. 356 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: So when God assigns a role to add him, he says, 357 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: your role is to name, identify, and subdu, and subdu 358 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: means to put everything in its proper place. Okay. So 359 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: someone's character is the manner in which they put things 360 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: into place, right, their priority. When you go watch a movie, 361 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: what you see is the embodiment of a structure of prioritization. 362 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: This person has an aim, they have a strategy, They 363 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: have some things for them come first. That's the things 364 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: they attend to. That's what you're watching. When you watch 365 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: the character, you reflect the perceptions and the emotions, and 366 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 2: you observe the success of the strategy. Right. So what 367 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: a story presents to you is a hierarchy of intentional 368 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 2: and action priority, and it's extremely valuable. And then you 369 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: can test them out. And I say, that's the technical 370 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: definition of a story. And so we're always looking for 371 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: a better story, and the story would be the structure 372 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: that integrates the conflicts. That's another way to say that. 373 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: That's really lovely, right, because I always think about the 374 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: story as what always has grabbed me is the way 375 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: that we slip so easily into characters, into. 376 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: Story in other ways. Yeah, right. 377 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: Neuroscientists we study the brain. We say, look, here's how 378 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: the visual system works. You have photons that the retina. 379 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: You know, you figure out what you're looking at, what 380 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: you're hearing from. But in fact, what brains do most 381 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: of the time is they don't care at all about 382 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: what's in front of them. 383 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: They're thinking about other things. They're simulating possible future. 384 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: Is that reminiscing about the past, or they're slipping into 385 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: literature and absolutely the character. So I love what you 386 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: said about the reason you become the characters. You get 387 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: to experience the world from a. 388 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 2: Different attentional exactly exactly, it's a different structure. Well look, look, 389 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: so a typical story element, let's say, in an action 390 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: romantic action adventure movie, is do you save the woman 391 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: you love or do you serve your country? Right, that's 392 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: very so you can see there's both of those are 393 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: very well developed hierarchies of value. There's real reasons to 394 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: prioritize the person you love, and there's real reasons to 395 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: prioritize your nation. Okay, so now what do you do 396 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: when those are head to hit? Well, the character of 397 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: the protagonist determines the answer to that question, right right, right, right. 398 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: So see gets to live in those shoes and see 399 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: what he does, and see what that resonates with you. 400 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can see whether that's an uphill that's 401 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: an uphill journey or a downhill journey, yes, right, and 402 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: so or or a variant of that. And this is 403 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: the most standard variant is the comedic variant, which is 404 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 2: obstacle crisis resolution, but resolution at a higher order, right, right, 405 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: that's the divine comedy. Tragedy is just the dissent, right, 406 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: that's the emergence of entropy. That's a way of thinking 407 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 2: about it. Give entropy would be while your your belief 408 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: system collapses because it encounters an obstacle that's insurmountable. Now 409 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: you're bereft, and that's the end of you. Right, that's 410 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 2: tragic dissolution of the would be hero, that's right. 411 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: And just symone's following the entropy is this idea of 412 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, instead of having a clear path, you've got 413 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: multiple possibilities. That's this idea of an increase of entropy. 414 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: Your brain is anxious and it has does things. 415 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: Fall apart, or which you don't know which way is up, 416 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 2: or when you don't know where you're going, or when 417 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: you're lost in the desert right right, or you're just 418 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: in despair. Right. All of those those are high entropy. 419 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: States exactly, And what the brain is always trying to 420 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: do is save energy. That's essentially its mainful life. Yeah, 421 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: that's right, right, Oh, that's. 422 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was Schrodinger's definition of life. Essentially, it's 423 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: an anti entropic function, right, So the association of anxiety 424 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: with entropies is very, very fundamental, very fund Stories are 425 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: ways of constraining entropy. That that isn't all they do, 426 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: because they provide an aim and they provide hope. But 427 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: even that's an entropy constraining function to some degree. 428 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: Oh, fascinating, Yeah, it's it's it's it's really a key realization. 429 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: As soon as you understand that a story describes a 430 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 3: hierarchy of attentional prioritization, you think, oh, well, of course, 431 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 3: because that means that the story, the story is literally 432 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 3: how we make sense of the world. It's a description 433 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 3: of a structure of making sense in the world. 434 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: Navigation. It's a navigational. 435 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: Structure, right, And all these lessons are as we plow 436 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: through novels with these lessons give us is ways to 437 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: manage the own conflict within our heads with all these 438 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: different drives going on. 439 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: And to do that in relationship to other people in. 440 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: The future that's exactly right, and ourselves in the future, right, and. 441 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: Ourselves of course, of course, of course, because we're actually 442 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: a community across time, right. So that's partly why there's 443 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: an analogy between the self and the community. It's like, well, 444 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: why should you take care of the old, Well, you're 445 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: going to be old. So if your society doesn't take 446 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 2: care of the old, that's you, buddy. Why should you 447 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: take care of the sick? Well, you may be naive 448 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: and think you're going to be healthy your whole life, 449 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: but you're not, you know, so over the course of 450 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: your life you're going to it. While you could say 451 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: you're going to inhabit the entire sociological cosmos. So you 452 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: see reflections of this. For example, this is a very 453 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: canonical example of this in the insistence that the savior 454 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: is born in the lowly place. You see that with Moses, 455 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: and you see it with Christ is born with the animals, 456 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: among the animals in a stable. Why well, because at 457 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: some point, at some point in his life, even the 458 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: greatest hero occupies the lowest position. And so then if 459 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: that's the case, then you want to set things up 460 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: psychologically and socially so even those who occupy the most 461 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: lowly of positions are protected as if they're of infinite value. 462 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 4: That's the ethos, oh I see, that makes them very 463 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 4: appealing to the whole demographic to watch the story, because 464 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 4: if the hero is someone who already is born in 465 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 4: privilege and rich and so on, maybe you lose a 466 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 4: lot of the audience that way. 467 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: As this course, the audience doesn't have the opportunity to move. 468 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: It means that it also means that the story that's 469 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: being told doesn't span the entire range of possibilities. It's like, well, 470 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: here's a hero story if you're rich, well fair enough, 471 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: and it's not like that isn't the guide, But a 472 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 2: better guide is here's the story that guides you when 473 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 2: you're coming up from the abyss, or from the depths, 474 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: or from the lowest possible place. Because the the total 475 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: story would take you from the lowest possible place to 476 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 2: the highest possible place. 477 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: Right, I've always thought about that just as the size 478 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: of the delta. 479 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 2: Being the important thing. 480 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: But your point is that opens it up to you know, 481 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: everybody getting to see that where that spans. 482 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: It's univers so well, and you can imagine that as 483 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: a solution increases in quality, it becomes more generalizable. Right 484 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: it is that's almost by definition. That's that's that's that's 485 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: a good indication of its utility. This applies to everyone. 486 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: So then the question is partly of course this is 487 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: the case. If you think it through, it's like, what 488 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: story are human beings attempting to work out across the generations? Well, 489 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: the story that applies to everyone, well obviously, while like 490 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: what else, what other story could they possibly be trying 491 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: to work out? Right, the story that applies to the 492 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: privileged few, well, that would work if the privileged few 493 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: were stable, But they're not, right. I mean, look, one 494 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 2: percent of the population almost always controls fifty percent of 495 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: the wealth. But the people who occupy that one percent 496 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: aren't the same people even within the span of their life. 497 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: So like the water that's running from a faucet makes 498 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: a stable column, but the molecules are different from second 499 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: to second. Well, it's the same with these distributions in 500 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: social status. And so you know, a rich person who 501 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: goes to school is still the youngest kid in the school, 502 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: is still going to be subject to bullying, is still 503 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: going to be low on the social totem pole. And 504 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: so you need an ethos that applies to everyone across 505 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: all possible social positions, right, and a universal That's why 506 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: Harry Potter's an orphan, right, because he's lost, he's parentless, 507 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: he occupies a low he lives under the stairs with 508 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: like tyrannical parents, right, But it doesn't matter because he's 509 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: the hero that redeems everything right. Right, So that's a 510 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: universalizing story, and that's why it's sold, like, you know, 511 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of copies. 512 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So coming back to the issue of rivalry between 513 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: I think about them and networks. 514 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: You think about them as personalities. Other people think about 515 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: them as drives. It'sarily some of the things are drives. 516 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: Some of the hypothalamic issues are you know, thirst, fear, hunger. 517 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: The more the more automated they are, the more they're 518 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: drive Like yeah, that's because right, So, and the more 519 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: the more phylogenetically asient they are because they can just 520 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: run as programs. That's a really good point. 521 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: Actually, so we should we shouldn't call them all drives 522 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: or all personalities. I totally agree with what you're saying. 523 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: These really automated hypothalamic things. Those are really like I 524 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: think about the most personalities with. 525 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: Very few degrees of freedom. Yeah that's right. Right, So 526 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: like sexual behavior, once it's instigated, collapses into a relatively 527 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: there's a few degrees of freedom, that's right, but it's 528 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: a more dry but it. 529 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: Still has a personality in terms of the things that notices, 530 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: the things it says to try to seduce and so on. 531 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Okay, Then we can think the more 532 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: phylogenetically ancient the motivational state, the more drive like it becomes. 533 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Okay, it's mostly automated. Good personality is 534 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: on a spectrum. Okay, so complexity of personality at least, right. 535 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: So how do you think about maturation and all these 536 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: personalities that you have. 537 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: What's your take on what it means? Okay, Okay, here's 538 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: a way of thinking. I think this is very cool. 539 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: So imagine that you have a drive to admire, Okay, 540 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: because you do. Okay, okay, what other people sure? Just 541 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 2: the fact that that exists, it's like you'll admire someone, 542 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: It's like, okay, I would say, the drive to admire 543 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: is the manifestation of the instinct to mature. Okay, let 544 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: me understand that the impact. Yeah, okay, Well, so look, 545 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: a four year old is going to admire a six 546 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: year old, all things considered, they'll usually pick someone that's 547 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: in their zone of proximal development, so someone they could be. Right, 548 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: And so now this instinct that compels them to admire, right, 549 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: to copy and to attend to picks a potential future 550 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: self that's obtainable and then grips them. Okay, that's the 551 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: instinct to mature. Right. So then you could say we've 552 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: got all these hypothalamic functions. There are sub personalities, but 553 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: there's a metafunction as well that's also biologically instantiated, that 554 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: drives us towards maturation and integration and integrates all those 555 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: sub personalities, and that manifests itself in the experience of admiration. 556 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: And then we admire heroes in books, and we admire 557 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: religious figures, and those are all here's how you make 558 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: a religious figure. It's simple. You take ten admirable people 559 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: and they're the same because they're admirable, so they exist 560 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: in a category. You extract out everything that's admirable, you 561 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: sink it into a single personality and posit that as 562 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 2: an ideal. And you do that a thousand times, you 563 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: have a savior. A savior will emerge out of that. 564 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: Oh terrific, right, okay, and then we okay, And so 565 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: the to summarize this, what we then do is we 566 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: use that savior as a way when we. 567 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: Have an internal battle. 568 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: We say, it gives us some you know, I don't 569 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: know what would Jesus do exactly? 570 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: What would what would dny X do? 571 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, because right, so, both literature and let's 572 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: say religion, even at a higher level of this gives 573 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: us a way to deal with this conflict because, as 574 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: you what I've talked about before. You know, what we're 575 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: always trying to do is reduce entropy and not have 576 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: every possibility open. 577 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: And often we know. 578 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: That there's a conflict between instant gratification and long term 579 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: thinking who we want to be, and so that gives 580 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 1: us a way to grip onto it, to say what 581 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: would this deity do well? 582 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: And the fact that that, the fact that that example 583 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: is exemplified in the story also makes it generalizable. And 584 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: here here's why. So think if you watch children play house, 585 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 2: Let's say a little boy is playing the father. You 586 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: might say, well, he's imitating his father, but that's not right. 587 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: What he does is he watches his father, and then 588 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 2: he watches instantiations of the father in say movies, Disney movies, 589 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 2: and the books he's reading, and he abstracts out the 590 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 2: character of the father. Now, the character of the father 591 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: is a far more generalizable understanding than pure imitation. It's 592 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: less drive like, it's more personality like. So, if you 593 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: have a savior instantiated in a story, you can generalize 594 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 2: from the story to the novel situation, which you couldn't 595 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: do if you were just imitating. Yes, right, so that's 596 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: how you encapsulate the spirit of the story. The spirit's 597 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: the pattern that can be generalized. 598 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: What's interesting is this is not to my knowledge, it's 599 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: not really studied in neuroscience, so we don't know where 600 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: do you store the savior? I mean presuming this all prefrontal, 601 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: long term thinking stuff, some of that shapes your circuits, 602 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: the fact that I know of a savior, or we 603 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: study it in some ways, but we don't know we're 604 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: studying it. 605 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: Okay, if you study vervet monkeys, for example, vervet monkeys 606 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: will look longer at photographs of high status vervet monkeys 607 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,919 Speaker 2: that have low status in their tribe, right in their group. Right, 608 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: So there's an association between social status and movement towards 609 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 2: that admirable figure. And the alpha chimp is the highest 610 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: status chip. Okay, so you might say, well, he's the 611 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: most powerful chimp, he's the most brutal chip. It's like 612 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 2: friends to all blue that theory to bits, that isn't 613 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: the case. Stable alphas are reciprocal and they have very 614 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: dense friendship networks. Right. So now you could say you 615 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: take alpha you're a chimp. You take Alpha one in 616 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 2: one generation and Alpha two in the second generation in 617 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: three and four and five, and then you amalgamate them. Well, 618 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 2: that's eliot a tract that development in religious stories. That's 619 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: exactly what happens, is that that's how memory actually works. 620 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: Is imagine there's a historical figure who's memorable and stories 621 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 2: are told about them, but then it's three generations later 622 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: and everyone who knew him died. Well, all the stories 623 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: get amalgamated into a central hero figure, and that's what's remembered, right, 624 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: that's what's remembered, right, Yeah, And that's what stories are 625 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: told about. That's what's remembered, and that is what is taught. 626 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: And when it's taught to somebody, then they can use 627 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: that hero figure as a way to navigate or they. 628 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: Even acted out, they dramatize its. Right, Yeah, yeah, that's 629 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 2: that's right, that's exactly right. So the the historical memory 630 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: aggregates into singular figures and then those are elevated, exactly right. 631 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: And my point is, I think this we don't understand 632 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: entirely how that we know about mirror neurons and the 633 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: fact that we in person and others. But but this 634 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 1: is a big part of why we have hero stories 635 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: in religion and so on, is so that we can say, oh, 636 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: that's somebody worth mirroring, that's definitely. 637 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: Definitely and admiration is the key to that. And that's 638 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 2: so that's where you can say the instinctual basis of it, 639 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 2: and you know that admiration is probably the drive as 640 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 2: well that compels a child to listen to his father 641 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: if he admires it, right, because and you need that 642 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 2: because otherwise, why would the child make the father a 643 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: figure of intentional prioritization. There has to be an instinct 644 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 2: there which is an instinct to respond, let's say, to 645 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 2: the paternal and then if the father matches the paternal 646 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 2: template genetically, then he's going to catalyze that instinct for 647 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: admiration and learning is going to take place. Excellence, Yeah, excellent, 648 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Hey, my pleasure. I loved this conversation. 649 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: There were so many things that came out. Yeah, yeah, correct, 650 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 2: it was my pleasure. 651 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: That was my conversation with Jordan Peterson, and I just 652 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: want to summarize a few of the parts that I 653 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: found particularly important. First, nobody, you know, is one thing 654 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: like a computer system with a single operating system. But 655 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: instead each person you look at can be somewhat different 656 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: under different circumstances. And the part that sometimes it's harder 657 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: to see is that this applies equally to ourselves. We 658 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: are each build of different networks with different goals, and 659 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: your behavior falls under the grip of different drives, like 660 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: when you're trying to obtain something or you're hungry, or 661 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: you're sexually driven, or you're angry, or you're calm and 662 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: thinking about your long term goals. Whatever state you're in 663 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: modifies not just how you act and what you decide, 664 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: but what you even notice and how you perceive it. 665 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. One study showed that when 666 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: people are thirsty, they're more likely to perceive an ambiguous 667 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: surface as transparent, like water. This is like a parts 668 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: traveler seeing mirages of water in a desert. Versions of 669 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: this sort of thing happen all the time. What we 670 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: see and what we notice depends on our drives. A 671 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: person with an addiction to drugs, sex, food, anything else 672 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: will notice threats and opportunities differently than someone else. They 673 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: know notice what they need to notice to obtain what 674 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: they seek. But because we're always trapped inside ourselves, it 675 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: can be difficult to see that we're different people at 676 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: different times. This only becomes clear in those moments when 677 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: we look back and we think, wow, I really can't 678 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: believe I did that, or said that, or thought that 679 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: was a good idea. A century ago, Albert Einstein commented 680 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: on how when a scientist looks at raw data, they 681 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: can only see what their frameworks allow them to see 682 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: he said quote. It is the theory which decides what 683 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: can be observed. In other words, there's raw data out there, 684 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: but if you don't have a framework for something, you 685 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: won't even see it. And the heart of today's episode 686 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: is the same sort of idea, not about a theory, 687 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: but a personality. The personality, the drive that grips you 688 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: at the moment, the neural network that is winning for 689 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 1: the moment, that decides what can be observed. If you're 690 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: a regular listener to this podcast, you know that I'm 691 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: obsessed with the differences between people in terms of what 692 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: they perceive from the world. But today's episode is fundamentally 693 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: about the differences between you and you and you at 694 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: different moments in time. Sometimes the role of religion or 695 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: literature is to set up ideals that we admire, and 696 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: that way, instead of just looking to other people, we 697 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: can look to an envisioned future self. We can say, Okay, 698 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: I have a vision that I kind of like for 699 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: the sort of person that I want to be, even 700 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: if you don't feel like that person. Now you can 701 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: build a model of that future you and ideal self 702 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: that satisfies the greatest number of constraints, both individual and communal, 703 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: and then you can navigate your decisions in deference to that. So, 704 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: as we wrap up, here's the takeaway. You are not 705 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: one singular, unchanging entity, but instead a shifting constellation of drives, states, 706 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: neural networks, each vying for control in different moments, and 707 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: recognizing this fluidity can be a powerful tool not only 708 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 1: for understanding your past actions and moments of regret. 709 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 2: But also for shaping your future. 710 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: Self By consciously constructing ideal versions of yourself, whether through 711 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 1: thinking about it or writing on religious or literary exemplars, 712 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: we can use these to help guide our choices because if. 713 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 2: We are in our core a team of rivals. 714 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: Then the challenge and the opportunity is learning how to 715 00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: captain that argumentative team towards the optimal outcome. Go to 716 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: Eagleman dot com slash podcast for more information and to 717 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: find further reading. Send me an email at podcast at 718 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: eagleman dot com with questions or discussion, and check out 719 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: and subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos of 720 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: each episode and to leave comments Until next time. 721 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 2: I'm David Eagleman, and this is Inner Cosmos.