WEBVTT - The Manson Family Murders Part II 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:13.680 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.759 There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry Roland over there, 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.800 and this is Stuff you Should Know about the Manson 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.880 Family Part two. And that's right. Uh if you if 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:25.880 you're listening to this one first and you're doing it wrong, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.720 so um, no need to recap. Just go listen to 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.120 part one. Yeah, and we'll pick up um with the 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.800 Beatles White Album, which was a very big deal and 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.360 how this figures in um, great great album Obviously as 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.960 a Beatles fan, I know you're not super into them, 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.760 but uh, I love the White Album. It's there, um 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:50.240 arguably their weirdest album. Uh. And it spoke to Charles 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:55.960 Manson for sure, because he really became pretty obsessed with 0:00:56.000 --> 0:01:00.480 it and diving into deconstructing the album. Uh. It's a 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.800 very dense, long album anyway, and there's a lot to it. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.920 So it's no wonder that um, Charles Manson of the 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.280 head Fallow Acid would think that the Beatles are speaking 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.959 to him, right, and he definitely did. Um. So he 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:19.120 apparently had a history already of deconstructing Beatles lyrics, but 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.759 before he was deconstructing lyrics like Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.760 Club Band, which compared to the White Album, is decidedly 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.440 upbeat and positive. Right, So, while use in prison, he 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.720 was super into the Beatles. When he gets out the 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.560 Beatles released the White Album, he's already obsessed with them, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.280 but now he's on tons and tons of acid. The 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.000 White Album is kind of a downer compared to Sergeant 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.640 Pepper's UM and the fact that it's speaking to Charles 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.320 Manson like really made things turn dark, it seems like 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.360 as far as him and the people in his orbit 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:57.760 are concerned. Yeah, so they're hanging out their lighting bonfires, 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.240 they're doing drugs. Their list thing to Charles Manson stomp 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.880 around with his tiny feet uh in his redneck voice 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.760 talking about Helter Skelter, which is a great great Beatles song, 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:17.760 um and basically sort of sort of renamed his uh, 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:22.880 his vision for the this race war and impending apocalypse 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.800 Helter Skelter. He kind of stole that from the Beatles, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.799 as Bano would later go on to say, yeah, he 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.640 stole it from the Beatles, but he also um, took 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.040 it again as like a message that the Beatles were 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.240 sending him, a sign that he needed to prepare his 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.320 family for this because they were the chosen ones basically 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:45.240 who should wait out the race, riot and in death valley. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.880 So there's this whole idea that the all of the 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:55.560 Tate Lobianca murders took place. Um to further this idea 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.680 of helter skelter, to strike strike the match that would 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.400 set it off to get the is going right. And 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:07.520 this idea apparently is the creation of the prosecutor in 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.320 the case, a guy named Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote a 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.080 book called Helter Skelter like a six d page book. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:19.480 Basically this the definitive true crime book on the Manson 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.600 family and the Manson family murders. And so most of 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.400 the most of what we said in part one and 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.040 most of what everybody knows about the Manson family murders 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:34.480 are come through this lens that was established by Vincent Bugliosi, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.680 who is the lead prosecutor in the case, was privated 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:43.560 tons of information to to um, confessions, to interviews under questioning, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.800 to all this stuff. But he's the one who pieced 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.400 together the idea that the Manson family committed these murders 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:55.400 to to start helter skelter. That was his his whole jam. Yeah. Well, 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.960 I mean some of the Manson family coborate, coroborated, corroberated. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.040 It's in there somewhere corroborated. That's a dark time with 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.560 that word corroborated, corroborated. I don't have to say it much, luckily, 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.360 because I'm not in a life of crime. Uh No. 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.440 But some of them back that up um and saying that, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.440 you know, at one point he wanted them to throw 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.640 a wallet of a victim in a in a black 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.039 neighborhood so so that people would think it was you know, 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.440 black panthers that did this. Yeah, but it's some evidence 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.880 that that was probably the case. If you talk though 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.640 to Manson and you or if you listen to some 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.760 of the stuff he says. Some of these explanations because 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.760 over the years people have said, what about this part, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.400 what about this part, and have basically presented him with 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.760 every aspect of the whole case against him. He you know, 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:45.800 a lot of the stuff he has no explanation for 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.720 nothing good. But that whilet is a sterling example of 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.160 where it becomes obvious that wait, we're we're basically hearing 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.520 one point of view about this, and we've never that's 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.720 all we've ever heard, um, Which if you're doing any 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.839 kind of reporting, which you and I are not, but 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.680 if you were inclined to do any kind of reporting, UM, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.159 you never want to just stick to just one source. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.880 And with the Manson family case, it's basically one source, 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.360 and it's Vinci Bugliosi, the prosecutor. But Manson explains it 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.920 as he told, UM, I think it was Linda Kasabian 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.640 to just get rid of that wallet that he was 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.919 it wasn't in a predominantly black neighborhood, and then he 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:24.320 told her to get rid of the wallet because it 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.640 was hot, and she hid the wallet actually in the 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.719 tank of a toilet in a women's bathroom in a 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.320 gas station, which is hardly where you'd put it if 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.640 you wanted a black person to find it, to use 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.520 the credit cards inside, and to tip off the cops 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.520 that a black person was behind the Tate La Bianca murders. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.400 So when you when you kind of dive into stuff 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.200 like that, you see that there actually are two competing 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.320 explanations in some aspects of this case. Yeah, but I 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.000 think Cassabian herself said that too though, didn't you. Yeah. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.960 The thing is is if you are, if you losableach 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.840 Arles Manson, Right, I know that's that's the thing is. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.440 There's a terrible realization when you're like, actually a wait 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.680 a minute, I understand what Charles Manson is saying here. Um, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.920 the with with stuff like that when you look at 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.520 the testimony. These were people who were on trial for 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.440 murder who had every incentive to go along with the 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.719 lead prosecutors theory that it was all Charles Manson's fault. 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:32.040 They could have maybe immunity, Um, they could have they 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.400 could have charges dropped against them that by saying yes, 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.360 this is the case, or having their testimony jibe with 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.680 what Vincent Boogliosi's case was. Um, they had an incentive 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.599 to do that. Whether Charles Manson is right or correct 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.719 or lying from a from a an objective perspective, the 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:55.680 people on trials for murder had a an incentive to 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:01.320 agree with Vincent Boogliosi. All right, So, uh, the way 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.800 they got caught was actually pretty interesting. Um. Unrelated to 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.520 these murders. Police rated spawn Ranch because um, it was 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.240 sort of became known that the people were living there 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.400 that were out on these creepy crawls doing these crimes. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.360 And so that's why they were originally uh fingered as 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.920 they say in the biz Um. And they went there 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:26.920 and they rated Spawn Ranch and a lot of the 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.559 family were arrested at that time for like kr theft 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.760 and burglary and stuff. Um. They were released on the 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.840 technicality and then went to Death Valley to that weird ranch. Um. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:39.640 If you ever been to Death Valley, it's not a 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.760 place you want to hang out. No, it's not, especially 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.800 in the summertime. Is that where Joshua Tree is? No, 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.360 that's it Joshua Tree, But that's not in Death Valley. No, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.040 they're those are two different places. But is it close by? 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.280 Is the same type of terrain kind of thing? Uh? Yeah, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.880 I mean I've been to both. Are they similar? Well, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.080 I mean Joshua Tree is is the desert for sure, 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.360 but it's very lovely. Like I don't remember much about 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.400 Death Valley that was. Um, I think it was not 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.560 very hospitable for me. It's it's appropriately named, yeah, I 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:17.040 think so okay. Um. And of course now people are 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.880 gonna say Death Valley is the best. You know what 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.680 you're talking about, heavy sweater um, So they go to 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.240 Death Valley. Then there were a bunch of raids at 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.720 the Death Valley camp between October tenth and twelfth of 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:37.160 nineteen sixty nine, and eventually they ended up rounding up 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.200 the people responsible for these murders without knowing that they 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.720 were responsible for these murders. So they were they were 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:48.120 in jail, uh kind of luckily already in jail when 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.280 they sort of decided they could pin on that pin 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.800 like legitimately, um pin these murders on these people. So 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.480 this being the second time there's there's something that I've 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.199 ran across the research, Chuck. It never gets talked about, 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.520 but is I think really significant. At both of those raids, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.520 the Spawn Ranch rate and the Death Valley rate. The 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:14.160 the state took children from this, Like there were kids, babies, toddlers, um, 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.840 little kids running around growing up, uh like at the 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.600 Spawn Ranch end at the Barker Ranch, which is extraordinarily troubling. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.160 And some of them have been are thought to have 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:30.120 possibly been um Charles Manson's kids, like he may have 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.760 had some some there's just so much free love going 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.200 on and so many pregnancies that were the results of 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.520 this free love. It was difficult to say whose kid 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.600 was who's, but it's they think that it's possible at 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.800 least one or two of those kids was Charles Manson's kids, UM, 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.120 and they were taken by the state and later adopted 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.679 by people. But it's like, you know, it's one thing 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:50.800 to think of a bunch of hippies just out in 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.880 the desert taking acid, just being idiots, you know, and 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.800 then eventually turning dark and murderous. But the idea that 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.080 there were kids around at any part of this is 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.800 really I find it very troubling. Yeah, for sure. I mean, 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.319 I mean, all those cults had kids roaming around, UM, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.200 they just weren't murderous cults, you know, yea. Uh so. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.320 Susan Atkins, for her part, she agreed to testify initially 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.839 UM against Charles Manson UM to avoid the death sentence UM, 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.120 which UM for a few years more, was still a 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.560 thing in California. I think in v two they reversed that, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.480 but at the time the death sentence was was a 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.880 threat at the time of the crimes, so she had 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.320 a grand jury testimony UM. It basically led to Manson 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.760 being arraigned for these murders in December sixty nine. Um, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.280 she recanted that testimony, UM, and the deal was revoked 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.040 by the prosecutors. It was kind of too late at 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.880 that point. UM. Linda Kasabian, who you might remember was 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.680 I think the getaway driver and then the one who 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.160 um would not knock on the right apartment door to 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.839 kill the actor. So she she'd actually didn't commit any 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:02.120 more orders at all, was not in any of the houses. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.120 She was granted immunity immunity for testifying, and I think 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.880 she was the only one granted immunity, right, although I think, yeah, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.920 they just took the death penalty off, like you said, 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.040 for Susan Atkins. And I don't know if you said 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.000 this or not, but Susan Atkins is the reason the 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.600 case broke open eventually when they rounded up all of 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.520 the Manson family and had him in jail for um, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.120 the death Valley raids for for you know, um, burglary 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.840 and theft and stuff like that. The way that they 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.200 found out that the Manson family was responsible for the 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.600 Tate Lobbianca murders was Susan Atkins bragging about it and 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.920 a couple of her cell mates going and telling the cops. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.440 And that's originally how the case began against the Manson family. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.240 That's how the authorities originally found out big mouth. Yeah, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.400 I guess so. All right, so let's take a break 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.360 and we'll come back and talk a little bit about 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.440 one of the weirdest, most sensational trials in American history. 0:11:53.520 --> 0:12:24.360 Right after this, alright, chuck so Um. On December nine, 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.880 Charles Manson, who the public had just been acquainted with, UM, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.920 I think just in the last few months, was finally 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:37.880 arraigned for UM the murders of Tatelbianca murders, and I 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.280 think that UM. Did they get him for his role 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.640 in the Hinman murder at that point, M I'm not, 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.360 I'm not actually sure about that. Definitely the Tatelbianca murders, 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:54.839 which was plenty enough UM and he it's it's it's 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.880 kind of an understatement to say that he did not 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:03.080 UM offer any public contrition. He actually went the opposite way. Yeah, 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.199 for sure, he was. UM. Well, the whole trial was chaos, 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.880 and he UM he incited chaos at every turn, UM 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.920 to make it just a circus, and was quite successful 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.320 at doing so. Um initially wanted to represent himself and 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.400 did for a little while, but the judge Um denied that, 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.960 Judge William Keene and said, you have to work with 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.760 a lawyer because of the fact that you're just making 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.320 this into a circus. Basically, we need this to stay 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.280 on track. And Um he actually was successful, though Manson 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:40.040 was getting Judge Keene m Austred as Judge Um and 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:45.120 Judge Charles Older eventually would oversee the trial. Yeah, and 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.000 I read a two thousand thirteen interview with Manson, and 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.559 the thing that seemed to still get him the most 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.840 was that he was denied Um the ability to represent 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:56.960 himself in court, Like he felt like he never got 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.079 to have his same court and that was that was 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.880 the thing that god him more than anything else, not 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.440 being locked up for his whole life or anything like that. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.880 It was that he didn't get to open his big 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.680 mouth and court as much as he wanted to. So 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:12.679 I guess we could go over some of these things 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.120 that happened in court, Um that that led to this 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.920 circus atmosphere. And by the way, if you want to 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.560 see it yourself, there's a pretty good dramatic recreation in 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.720 the movie helter skelter that was based on Bugliosi's book 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:33.200 nothing better than dramatic recreations. Yeah, Um, lots of yelling 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:37.520 and screaming, lots of shouting and cursing, lots of disrespect 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.480 to the judge and the American flag. Uh. They threw 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.040 a copy of the Constitution in the garbage. At one point. Um. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.640 Very famously, Charles Manson carved an X into his forehead, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.960 which later became a swastika, saying that he was exed 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.920 out of the world. And then his family members would 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.880 do the same, and they would shave their heads and 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.080 generally just trying to disrupt things at every turn, right, 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.280 And they did. I mean they were quite successful. But 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.440 the trial kept going on and on, right, I think 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.320 it was it went on for a couple of years, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.280 based on news articles I was reading about it. So 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:18.480 it turns out, though that Richard Nixon supposedly had the 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:23.360 most disruptive effect on the trial, um by saying while 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.840 the trial was going on, quote, here's a man who 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:30.600 was guilty directly or indirectly of eight murders without reason. 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.560 He was the sitting US president commenting saying unequivocally that 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.520 this guy was guilty of a trial that was going on, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.120 which is, you just don't do that. It doesn't matter 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.200 what the case is. Not not for any compassion for 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.640 Charles Manson or anything like that, but just because even 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.200 on the other side, you could have blown the case 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.200 and and and he legitimately could have created a mistrial 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.600 there just because the President said something and everyone reported 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.400 on it. I can't imagine that happening today. I totally can't. 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.480 It was a very Trumpean move. Um. So we we talked. 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:07.640 I think we covered the Helter Skelter thing enough, don't you. 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.160 We did. But I think there's a there's a big 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.320 thing that all this hinges on is that, um they're 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.800 the prosecution said, and you said earlier you even had 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.520 a quote from text Watson that Charles Manson told him 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.760 to go and just destroy the people in that house, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.360 gruesome as you can. And the prosecution said that that 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:29.160 Charles Manson was trying to spark the Helter Skelter race 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.360 war that he believed was going to happen. Manson's whole 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.480 thing was this here, this is Charles Manson's explanation for 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.600 what happened and why he's innocent. He said, yeah, I 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.280 believed in Helter Skelter. Yes, I believe there's a race 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.400 war coming. Um. I I talked about it at night 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.520 around bonfires with everybody on acid. I also talked about 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.560 death of the ego and all sorts of other stuff. 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:56.440 Um And if you ask me, what happened was my 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.920 friends just took things and went it took it to 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.000 who literally and went too far. And that it all 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.200 hinged on this Bobby Bosl thing, right, and even even 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.200 before that, this lots of Papa thing. So text Watson 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.320 rips off Bernard lots of Papa crow and he's got 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.880 a problem with lots of Papa who wants to kill him? Now, 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.679 and Manson goes over there to help, Um, text Watson 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.040 solve this problem by shooting, shooting lots of Papa. So, now, 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.359 as far as Manson and Texts are concerned, text os 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:32.159 Watson a debt, any kind of debt? Well, Manson's or 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.520 Tex owns Manson a debt. Now, Manson's friend Bobby Boos, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.399 who was one of his tightest family members, gets arrested 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.840 for murder, the murder of Gary Hindman, and Manson says, well, 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:47.960 you know, I mean you should do something to help 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.400 my brother Bobby bos Al and um, you know, text says, 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.440 well what should I do? And apparently Manson flew off 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.639 the handle and said, don't ask me what you should do. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.879 You know what you should do. And that was that 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:05.080 at And the next thing, Manson knows Watson and cran 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:10.480 Winkle and Atkins are over at the Tate, the Tate residents, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.919 carving up Sharon Tate and the rest of the people 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.359 in the house. He didn't say anything about going to 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.280 kill anybody. He didn't direct him anywhere, he didn't say 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.520 anything like that. He just said they took what all 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.840 the other stuff that he'd said too far, and that 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.400 really what they were doing was trying to cover up 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.680 cover for um, Bobby Busy to get him out of prison. 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:37.199 That's Manson's explanation for the whole thing. Well, yeah, and 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.280 for and for the part uh, well, I guess we 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.159 should go ahead and say that, um, that all of 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.160 these people went to prison, um uh and Susan Atkins, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.080 Patricia Cranwinkle, Leslie Van Houghton, they all were, you know, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.680 still so under his spell that they were fully ready 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.040 and did take the blame for these killings. UM. But 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.200 when it comes to parole, it was in January one 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.760 that they were all convicted on all accounts murder conspiracy 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.520 to commit murder. UM. But years later, as parole hearings 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.080 would come up for all these women and Texas Watson 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:19.240 and Manson himself, the reason why they were continually denied. UM, 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.760 even like tex Watson became a born again Christian and 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.280 and you know supposed he turned his life around. But 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:31.479 they none of them would would take responsibility. All these 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.960 years later, they would all still say that it was 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.120 Manson was Manson. And from what I understand a big 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:42.240 part of getting your parole approved is to finally take 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.359 full responsibility for what you had done. And none of 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.439 them would do it, and they were all all denied 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.480 over the years. UM. Susan Atkins eventually died of brain 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.040 cancer in two thousand nine. UM. And then just a 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:00.639 few days ago, UM. Well, Leslie van Houghton September of 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.399 last year was actually recommended for parole in just a 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.600 few days ago. As of this recording, the Governor of California, 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:11.399 Jerry Brown, denied that UM and said, now she's still 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.760 isn't taking responsibility. UM. And I think these cases are 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.320 just so loaded still that it would be really tough 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.399 even though parole was recommended for the governor to to 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.720 approve that. You know. So we'll see they're gonna apparently 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.439 they're gonna keep pursuing that, and I'm not sure what 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.240 the next steps are, but they're gonna fight that ruling 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:38.280 by Jerry Brown and we'll see where that goes. So um, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.160 so I think, and then Patricia Fenwinkel is still in prison. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.040 And I think now that Susan Atkins died, she is 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.880 the longest serving female in may in California prison system. Yeah. Oh, 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.960 and we should say too that um Squeaky From tried 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.400 to kill Nixon. That's where she gained later fame. Oh 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.280 what I say Nixon? Yeah, Gerald Ford and um, she's 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.280 she's out of prison. She uh, she lives in upstate 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.359 New York. And I think the last I've seen of 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.000 her was someone took her picture in a Walmart parking 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.720 line and she like smack the camera down. Yeah. So 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:16.159 she she's an interesting case. Squeaky From was out. She 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.120 wasn't um indicted for any of the murders or any 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.600 role in the murders, but she was a number she 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:26.000 was the number two UH person to join the Manson family. Remember, 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:31.560 and she Um still to this day refuses to denounce Manson. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.719 It's still very much all about Charles Manson and UM 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.720 just as much as she was before UM and she 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.480 went to I I guess I'm not sure what she 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.679 was doing with a gun and gerald Ford, but she 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.160 aimed a gun at gerald Ford. It was the gun 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.680 wasn't loaded, but it still had the effect of sending 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.960 or to prison for decades for an assassination attempt on 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:58.000 the president. Right, I'm surprised she ever got out. I 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.000 am too, but she was parole eventually lee, but she 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.479 still she's still never denounced Charles Manson. All of the 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.920 other ones denounced Manson. She's the only one who has it. 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.040 And supposedly one time she escaped in the eighties because 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.960 she heard that m. Charles Manson was sick, so she 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.760 broke her way out of prison to try to get 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:19.520 to him. I guess was a Manson family member who 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.239 tried to kill the president and escape from prison, and 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:26.560 they she earned parole. Yeah, hard to believe, but I 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.320 think it's like you said, I think those are the 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.200 case that Tate La Bianca murders were so politically charged 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.159 and so loaded, um that that that like it just 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.520 didn't They just weren't going to get out the people 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:45.639 who actually committed the murders. Yeah, Manson had an interesting 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.000 time in prison too. He had a you got try 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:51.560 and kill him by lighting him on fire at one point. Uh, 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.760 and like I think of, his body was badly burned. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:01.879 And he had a string of of relationships with people 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.159 from pin pals, which will kind of cover at the 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.840 end to a to a woman that he did he 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.679 actually marry that woman? I don't. I don't know she 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.320 was in that two article that I was reading, um, 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.920 and I don't know if they got married. Man, we 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.439 should do I don't know what we would call it, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:26.280 but an episode on generally women who who marry serial killers. 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:30.280 We totally should in prison. Let's do that, but first 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:59.240 let's take a break. How about that? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, okay, Chuck, 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.159 we're backward talking about. So Manson's in prison for a 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.120 while there. This is just mind blowing to me. For 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.080 a good decade he enjoyed, uh, actually more than that, 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.679 he enjoyed the limelight he he could get. Um, interviewed 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:17.040 by huge names like you said, Diane Sawyer, Charlie Rose, 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.399 Haraldo Rivera very famously did an interview with um Charles Manson, 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.840 where apparently Manson you were saying how much poise Diane 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:29.720 Sawyer showed during her interview. Supposedly Manson just owned Haraldo 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:33.360 during that interview, just totally took control of the whole thing. 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.480 But um, these were things that were televised like on 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:43.560