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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry Roland over there,

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Speaker 1: and this is Stuff you Should Know about the Manson

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Speaker 1: Family Part two. And that's right. Uh if you if

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this one first and you're doing it wrong,

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Speaker 1: so um, no need to recap. Just go listen to

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Speaker 1: part one. Yeah, and we'll pick up um with the

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Speaker 1: Beatles White Album, which was a very big deal and

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Speaker 1: how this figures in um, great great album Obviously as

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Speaker 1: a Beatles fan, I know you're not super into them,

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Speaker 1: but uh, I love the White Album. It's there, um

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Speaker 1: arguably their weirdest album. Uh. And it spoke to Charles

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Speaker 1: Manson for sure, because he really became pretty obsessed with

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Speaker 1: it and diving into deconstructing the album. Uh. It's a

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Speaker 1: very dense, long album anyway, and there's a lot to it.

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Speaker 1: So it's no wonder that um, Charles Manson of the

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Speaker 1: head Fallow Acid would think that the Beatles are speaking

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Speaker 1: to him, right, and he definitely did. Um. So he

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Speaker 1: apparently had a history already of deconstructing Beatles lyrics, but

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Speaker 1: before he was deconstructing lyrics like Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts

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Speaker 1: Club Band, which compared to the White Album, is decidedly

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Speaker 1: upbeat and positive. Right, So, while use in prison, he

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Speaker 1: was super into the Beatles. When he gets out the

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Speaker 1: Beatles released the White Album, he's already obsessed with them,

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Speaker 1: but now he's on tons and tons of acid. The

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Speaker 1: White Album is kind of a downer compared to Sergeant

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Speaker 1: Pepper's UM and the fact that it's speaking to Charles

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Speaker 1: Manson like really made things turn dark, it seems like

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Speaker 1: as far as him and the people in his orbit

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Speaker 1: are concerned. Yeah, so they're hanging out their lighting bonfires,

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Speaker 1: they're doing drugs. Their list thing to Charles Manson stomp

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Speaker 1: around with his tiny feet uh in his redneck voice

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Speaker 1: talking about Helter Skelter, which is a great great Beatles song,

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Speaker 1: um and basically sort of sort of renamed his uh,

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Speaker 1: his vision for the this race war and impending apocalypse

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Speaker 1: Helter Skelter. He kind of stole that from the Beatles,

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Speaker 1: as Bano would later go on to say, yeah, he

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Speaker 1: stole it from the Beatles, but he also um, took

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Speaker 1: it again as like a message that the Beatles were

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Speaker 1: sending him, a sign that he needed to prepare his

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Speaker 1: family for this because they were the chosen ones basically

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Speaker 1: who should wait out the race, riot and in death valley.

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Speaker 1: So there's this whole idea that the all of the

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Speaker 1: Tate Lobianca murders took place. Um to further this idea

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Speaker 1: of helter skelter, to strike strike the match that would

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Speaker 1: set it off to get the is going right. And

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Speaker 1: this idea apparently is the creation of the prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: the case, a guy named Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called Helter Skelter like a six d page book.

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Speaker 1: Basically this the definitive true crime book on the Manson

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Speaker 1: family and the Manson family murders. And so most of

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Speaker 1: the most of what we said in part one and

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Speaker 1: most of what everybody knows about the Manson family murders

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Speaker 1: are come through this lens that was established by Vincent Bugliosi,

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Speaker 1: who is the lead prosecutor in the case, was privated

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Speaker 1: tons of information to to um, confessions, to interviews under questioning,

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Speaker 1: to all this stuff. But he's the one who pieced

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Speaker 1: together the idea that the Manson family committed these murders

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Speaker 1: to to start helter skelter. That was his his whole jam. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean some of the Manson family coborate, coroborated, corroberated.

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Speaker 1: It's in there somewhere corroborated. That's a dark time with

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Speaker 1: that word corroborated, corroborated. I don't have to say it much, luckily,

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Speaker 1: because I'm not in a life of crime. Uh No.

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Speaker 1: But some of them back that up um and saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, at one point he wanted them to throw

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Speaker 1: a wallet of a victim in a in a black

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Speaker 1: neighborhood so so that people would think it was you know,

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Speaker 1: black panthers that did this. Yeah, but it's some evidence

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Speaker 1: that that was probably the case. If you talk though

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Speaker 1: to Manson and you or if you listen to some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff he says. Some of these explanations because

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Speaker 1: over the years people have said, what about this part,

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Speaker 1: what about this part, and have basically presented him with

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Speaker 1: every aspect of the whole case against him. He you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff he has no explanation for

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Speaker 1: nothing good. But that whilet is a sterling example of

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Speaker 1: where it becomes obvious that wait, we're we're basically hearing

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Speaker 1: one point of view about this, and we've never that's

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Speaker 1: all we've ever heard, um, Which if you're doing any

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Speaker 1: kind of reporting, which you and I are not, but

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Speaker 1: if you were inclined to do any kind of reporting, UM,

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Speaker 1: you never want to just stick to just one source.

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Speaker 1: And with the Manson family case, it's basically one source,

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Speaker 1: and it's Vinci Bugliosi, the prosecutor. But Manson explains it

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Speaker 1: as he told, UM, I think it was Linda Kasabian

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Speaker 1: to just get rid of that wallet that he was

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Speaker 1: it wasn't in a predominantly black neighborhood, and then he

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Speaker 1: told her to get rid of the wallet because it

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Speaker 1: was hot, and she hid the wallet actually in the

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Speaker 1: tank of a toilet in a women's bathroom in a

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Speaker 1: gas station, which is hardly where you'd put it if

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Speaker 1: you wanted a black person to find it, to use

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Speaker 1: the credit cards inside, and to tip off the cops

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Speaker 1: that a black person was behind the Tate La Bianca murders.

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Speaker 1: So when you when you kind of dive into stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, you see that there actually are two competing

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Speaker 1: explanations in some aspects of this case. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: think Cassabian herself said that too though, didn't you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing is is if you are, if you losableach

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Speaker 1: Arles Manson, Right, I know that's that's the thing is.

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Speaker 1: There's a terrible realization when you're like, actually a wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, I understand what Charles Manson is saying here. Um,

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Speaker 1: the with with stuff like that when you look at

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Speaker 1: the testimony. These were people who were on trial for

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Speaker 1: murder who had every incentive to go along with the

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Speaker 1: lead prosecutors theory that it was all Charles Manson's fault.

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Speaker 1: They could have maybe immunity, Um, they could have they

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Speaker 1: could have charges dropped against them that by saying yes,

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Speaker 1: this is the case, or having their testimony jibe with

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Speaker 1: what Vincent Boogliosi's case was. Um, they had an incentive

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Speaker 1: to do that. Whether Charles Manson is right or correct

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Speaker 1: or lying from a from a an objective perspective, the

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Speaker 1: people on trials for murder had a an incentive to

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Speaker 1: agree with Vincent Boogliosi. All right, So, uh, the way

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Speaker 1: they got caught was actually pretty interesting. Um. Unrelated to

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Speaker 1: these murders. Police rated spawn Ranch because um, it was

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Speaker 1: sort of became known that the people were living there

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Speaker 1: that were out on these creepy crawls doing these crimes.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why they were originally uh fingered as

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Speaker 1: they say in the biz Um. And they went there

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Speaker 1: and they rated Spawn Ranch and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: family were arrested at that time for like kr theft

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Speaker 1: and burglary and stuff. Um. They were released on the

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Speaker 1: technicality and then went to Death Valley to that weird ranch. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you ever been to Death Valley, it's not a

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Speaker 1: place you want to hang out. No, it's not, especially

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Speaker 1: in the summertime. Is that where Joshua Tree is? No,

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Speaker 1: that's it Joshua Tree, But that's not in Death Valley. No,

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Speaker 1: they're those are two different places. But is it close by?

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Speaker 1: Is the same type of terrain kind of thing? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I've been to both. Are they similar? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean Joshua Tree is is the desert for sure,

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Speaker 1: but it's very lovely. Like I don't remember much about

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Speaker 1: Death Valley that was. Um, I think it was not

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Speaker 1: very hospitable for me. It's it's appropriately named, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think so okay. Um. And of course now people are

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Speaker 1: gonna say Death Valley is the best. You know what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, heavy sweater um, So they go to

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Speaker 1: Death Valley. Then there were a bunch of raids at

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Speaker 1: the Death Valley camp between October tenth and twelfth of

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, and eventually they ended up rounding up

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Speaker 1: the people responsible for these murders without knowing that they

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Speaker 1: were responsible for these murders. So they were they were

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Speaker 1: in jail, uh kind of luckily already in jail when

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Speaker 1: they sort of decided they could pin on that pin

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Speaker 1: like legitimately, um pin these murders on these people. So

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Speaker 1: this being the second time there's there's something that I've

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Speaker 1: ran across the research, Chuck. It never gets talked about,

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Speaker 1: but is I think really significant. At both of those raids,

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Speaker 1: the Spawn Ranch rate and the Death Valley rate. The

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Speaker 1: the state took children from this, Like there were kids, babies, toddlers, um,

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Speaker 1: little kids running around growing up, uh like at the

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Speaker 1: Spawn Ranch end at the Barker Ranch, which is extraordinarily troubling.

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Speaker 1: And some of them have been are thought to have

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Speaker 1: possibly been um Charles Manson's kids, like he may have

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Speaker 1: had some some there's just so much free love going

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Speaker 1: on and so many pregnancies that were the results of

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Speaker 1: this free love. It was difficult to say whose kid

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Speaker 1: was who's, but it's they think that it's possible at

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Speaker 1: least one or two of those kids was Charles Manson's kids, UM,

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Speaker 1: and they were taken by the state and later adopted

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Speaker 1: by people. But it's like, you know, it's one thing

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Speaker 1: to think of a bunch of hippies just out in

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Speaker 1: the desert taking acid, just being idiots, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then eventually turning dark and murderous. But the idea that

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Speaker 1: there were kids around at any part of this is

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Speaker 1: really I find it very troubling. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, all those cults had kids roaming around, UM,

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Speaker 1: they just weren't murderous cults, you know, yea. Uh so.

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Speaker 1: Susan Atkins, for her part, she agreed to testify initially

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Speaker 1: UM against Charles Manson UM to avoid the death sentence UM,

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Speaker 1: which UM for a few years more, was still a

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Speaker 1: thing in California. I think in v two they reversed that,

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Speaker 1: but at the time the death sentence was was a

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Speaker 1: threat at the time of the crimes, so she had

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Speaker 1: a grand jury testimony UM. It basically led to Manson

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Speaker 1: being arraigned for these murders in December sixty nine. Um,

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Speaker 1: she recanted that testimony, UM, and the deal was revoked

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Speaker 1: by the prosecutors. It was kind of too late at

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Speaker 1: that point. UM. Linda Kasabian, who you might remember was

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Speaker 1: I think the getaway driver and then the one who

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Speaker 1: um would not knock on the right apartment door to

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Speaker 1: kill the actor. So she she'd actually didn't commit any

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Speaker 1: more orders at all, was not in any of the houses.

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Speaker 1: She was granted immunity immunity for testifying, and I think

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Speaker 1: she was the only one granted immunity, right, although I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they just took the death penalty off, like you said,

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Speaker 1: for Susan Atkins. And I don't know if you said

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Speaker 1: this or not, but Susan Atkins is the reason the

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Speaker 1: case broke open eventually when they rounded up all of

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Speaker 1: the Manson family and had him in jail for um,

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Speaker 1: the death Valley raids for for you know, um, burglary

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Speaker 1: and theft and stuff like that. The way that they

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Speaker 1: found out that the Manson family was responsible for the

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Speaker 1: Tate Lobbianca murders was Susan Atkins bragging about it and

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Speaker 1: a couple of her cell mates going and telling the cops.

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Speaker 1: And that's originally how the case began against the Manson family.

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Speaker 1: That's how the authorities originally found out big mouth. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess so. All right, so let's take a break

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Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: one of the weirdest, most sensational trials in American history.

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Speaker 1: Right after this, alright, chuck so Um. On December nine,

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, who the public had just been acquainted with, UM,

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Speaker 1: I think just in the last few months, was finally

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Speaker 1: arraigned for UM the murders of Tatelbianca murders, and I

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Speaker 1: think that UM. Did they get him for his role

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Speaker 1: in the Hinman murder at that point, M I'm not,

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Speaker 1: I'm not actually sure about that. Definitely the Tatelbianca murders,

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Speaker 1: which was plenty enough UM and he it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: kind of an understatement to say that he did not

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Speaker 1: UM offer any public contrition. He actually went the opposite way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure, he was. UM. Well, the whole trial was chaos,

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Speaker 1: and he UM he incited chaos at every turn, UM

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Speaker 1: to make it just a circus, and was quite successful

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Speaker 1: at doing so. Um initially wanted to represent himself and

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Speaker 1: did for a little while, but the judge Um denied that,

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Speaker 1: Judge William Keene and said, you have to work with

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Speaker 1: a lawyer because of the fact that you're just making

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Speaker 1: this into a circus. Basically, we need this to stay

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Speaker 1: on track. And Um he actually was successful, though Manson

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Speaker 1: was getting Judge Keene m Austred as Judge Um and

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Speaker 1: Judge Charles Older eventually would oversee the trial. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I read a two thousand thirteen interview with Manson, and

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Speaker 1: the thing that seemed to still get him the most

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Speaker 1: was that he was denied Um the ability to represent

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Speaker 1: himself in court, Like he felt like he never got

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Speaker 1: to have his same court and that was that was

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Speaker 1: the thing that god him more than anything else, not

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Speaker 1: being locked up for his whole life or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: It was that he didn't get to open his big

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Speaker 1: mouth and court as much as he wanted to. So

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Speaker 1: I guess we could go over some of these things

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Speaker 1: that happened in court, Um that that led to this

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Speaker 1: circus atmosphere. And by the way, if you want to

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Speaker 1: see it yourself, there's a pretty good dramatic recreation in

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Speaker 1: the movie helter skelter that was based on Bugliosi's book

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Speaker 1: nothing better than dramatic recreations. Yeah, Um, lots of yelling

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Speaker 1: and screaming, lots of shouting and cursing, lots of disrespect

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Speaker 1: to the judge and the American flag. Uh. They threw

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Speaker 1: a copy of the Constitution in the garbage. At one point. Um.

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Speaker 1: Very famously, Charles Manson carved an X into his forehead,

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Speaker 1: which later became a swastika, saying that he was exed

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Speaker 1: out of the world. And then his family members would

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Speaker 1: do the same, and they would shave their heads and

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Speaker 1: generally just trying to disrupt things at every turn, right,

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Speaker 1: And they did. I mean they were quite successful. But

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Speaker 1: the trial kept going on and on, right, I think

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Speaker 1: it was it went on for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: based on news articles I was reading about it. So

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Speaker 1: it turns out, though that Richard Nixon supposedly had the

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Speaker 1: most disruptive effect on the trial, um by saying while

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Speaker 1: the trial was going on, quote, here's a man who

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Speaker 1: was guilty directly or indirectly of eight murders without reason.

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Speaker 1: He was the sitting US president commenting saying unequivocally that

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Speaker 1: this guy was guilty of a trial that was going on,

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Speaker 1: which is, you just don't do that. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: what the case is. Not not for any compassion for

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson or anything like that, but just because even

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Speaker 1: on the other side, you could have blown the case

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Speaker 1: and and and he legitimately could have created a mistrial

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Speaker 1: there just because the President said something and everyone reported

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Speaker 1: on it. I can't imagine that happening today. I totally can't.

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Speaker 1: It was a very Trumpean move. Um. So we we talked.

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Speaker 1: I think we covered the Helter Skelter thing enough, don't you.

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Speaker 1: We did. But I think there's a there's a big

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Speaker 1: thing that all this hinges on is that, um they're

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Speaker 1: the prosecution said, and you said earlier you even had

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Speaker 1: a quote from text Watson that Charles Manson told him

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Speaker 1: to go and just destroy the people in that house,

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Speaker 1: gruesome as you can. And the prosecution said that that

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson was trying to spark the Helter Skelter race

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Speaker 1: war that he believed was going to happen. Manson's whole

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Speaker 1: thing was this here, this is Charles Manson's explanation for

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Speaker 1: what happened and why he's innocent. He said, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: believed in Helter Skelter. Yes, I believe there's a race

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Speaker 1: war coming. Um. I I talked about it at night

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Speaker 1: around bonfires with everybody on acid. I also talked about

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Speaker 1: death of the ego and all sorts of other stuff.

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Speaker 1: Um And if you ask me, what happened was my

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Speaker 1: friends just took things and went it took it to

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Speaker 1: who literally and went too far. And that it all

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Speaker 1: hinged on this Bobby Bosl thing, right, and even even

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Speaker 1: before that, this lots of Papa thing. So text Watson

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Speaker 1: rips off Bernard lots of Papa crow and he's got

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Speaker 1: a problem with lots of Papa who wants to kill him? Now,

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Speaker 1: and Manson goes over there to help, Um, text Watson

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Speaker 1: solve this problem by shooting, shooting lots of Papa. So, now,

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Speaker 1: as far as Manson and Texts are concerned, text os

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Speaker 1: Watson a debt, any kind of debt? Well, Manson's or

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Speaker 1: Tex owns Manson a debt. Now, Manson's friend Bobby Boos,

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Speaker 1: who was one of his tightest family members, gets arrested

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Speaker 1: for murder, the murder of Gary Hindman, and Manson says, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean you should do something to help

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Speaker 1: my brother Bobby bos Al and um, you know, text says,

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Speaker 1: well what should I do? And apparently Manson flew off

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Speaker 1: the handle and said, don't ask me what you should do.

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Speaker 1: You know what you should do. And that was that

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Speaker 1: at And the next thing, Manson knows Watson and cran

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Speaker 1: Winkle and Atkins are over at the Tate, the Tate residents,

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Speaker 1: carving up Sharon Tate and the rest of the people

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Speaker 1: in the house. He didn't say anything about going to

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Speaker 1: kill anybody. He didn't direct him anywhere, he didn't say

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Speaker 1: anything like that. He just said they took what all

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Speaker 1: the other stuff that he'd said too far, and that

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Speaker 1: really what they were doing was trying to cover up

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Speaker 1: cover for um, Bobby Busy to get him out of prison.

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Speaker 1: That's Manson's explanation for the whole thing. Well, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: for and for the part uh, well, I guess we

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Speaker 1: should go ahead and say that, um, that all of

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Speaker 1: these people went to prison, um uh and Susan Atkins,

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Speaker 1: Patricia Cranwinkle, Leslie Van Houghton, they all were, you know,

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Speaker 1: still so under his spell that they were fully ready

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Speaker 1: and did take the blame for these killings. UM. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to parole, it was in January one

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Speaker 1: that they were all convicted on all accounts murder conspiracy

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Speaker 1: to commit murder. UM. But years later, as parole hearings

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Speaker 1: would come up for all these women and Texas Watson

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Speaker 1: and Manson himself, the reason why they were continually denied. UM,

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Speaker 1: even like tex Watson became a born again Christian and

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Speaker 1: and you know supposed he turned his life around. But

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Speaker 1: they none of them would would take responsibility. All these

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Speaker 1: years later, they would all still say that it was

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Speaker 1: Manson was Manson. And from what I understand a big

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Speaker 1: part of getting your parole approved is to finally take

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Speaker 1: full responsibility for what you had done. And none of

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Speaker 1: them would do it, and they were all all denied

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Speaker 1: over the years. UM. Susan Atkins eventually died of brain

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Speaker 1: cancer in two thousand nine. UM. And then just a

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Speaker 1: few days ago, UM. Well, Leslie van Houghton September of

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Speaker 1: last year was actually recommended for parole in just a

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Speaker 1: few days ago. As of this recording, the Governor of California,

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Speaker 1: Jerry Brown, denied that UM and said, now she's still

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Speaker 1: isn't taking responsibility. UM. And I think these cases are

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Speaker 1: just so loaded still that it would be really tough

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Speaker 1: even though parole was recommended for the governor to to

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Speaker 1: approve that. You know. So we'll see they're gonna apparently

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Speaker 1: they're gonna keep pursuing that, and I'm not sure what

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00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: the next steps are, but they're gonna fight that ruling

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Speaker 1: by Jerry Brown and we'll see where that goes. So um,

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00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 1: so I think, and then Patricia Fenwinkel is still in prison.

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Speaker 1: And I think now that Susan Atkins died, she is

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Speaker 1: the longest serving female in may in California prison system. Yeah. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and we should say too that um Squeaky From tried

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Speaker 1: to kill Nixon. That's where she gained later fame. Oh

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Speaker 1: what I say Nixon? Yeah, Gerald Ford and um, she's

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Speaker 1: she's out of prison. She uh, she lives in upstate

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Speaker 1: New York. And I think the last I've seen of

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Speaker 1: her was someone took her picture in a Walmart parking

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Speaker 1: line and she like smack the camera down. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: she she's an interesting case. Squeaky From was out. She

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Speaker 1: wasn't um indicted for any of the murders or any

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Speaker 1: role in the murders, but she was a number she

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Speaker 1: was the number two UH person to join the Manson family. Remember,

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Speaker 1: and she Um still to this day refuses to denounce Manson.

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Speaker 1: It's still very much all about Charles Manson and UM

357
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Speaker 1: just as much as she was before UM and she

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Speaker 1: went to I I guess I'm not sure what she

359
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,679
Speaker 1: was doing with a gun and gerald Ford, but she

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Speaker 1: aimed a gun at gerald Ford. It was the gun

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Speaker 1: wasn't loaded, but it still had the effect of sending

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Speaker 1: or to prison for decades for an assassination attempt on

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Speaker 1: the president. Right, I'm surprised she ever got out. I

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Speaker 1: am too, but she was parole eventually lee, but she

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Speaker 1: still she's still never denounced Charles Manson. All of the

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00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: other ones denounced Manson. She's the only one who has it.

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Speaker 1: And supposedly one time she escaped in the eighties because

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Speaker 1: she heard that m. Charles Manson was sick, so she

369
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: broke her way out of prison to try to get

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Speaker 1: to him. I guess was a Manson family member who

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Speaker 1: tried to kill the president and escape from prison, and

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Speaker 1: they she earned parole. Yeah, hard to believe, but I

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Speaker 1: think it's like you said, I think those are the

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Speaker 1: case that Tate La Bianca murders were so politically charged

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Speaker 1: and so loaded, um that that that like it just

376
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Speaker 1: didn't They just weren't going to get out the people

377
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Speaker 1: who actually committed the murders. Yeah, Manson had an interesting

378
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: time in prison too. He had a you got try

379
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Speaker 1: and kill him by lighting him on fire at one point. Uh,

380
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Speaker 1: and like I think of, his body was badly burned.

381
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Speaker 1: And he had a string of of relationships with people

382
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Speaker 1: from pin pals, which will kind of cover at the

383
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: end to a to a woman that he did he

384
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Speaker 1: actually marry that woman? I don't. I don't know she

385
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: was in that two article that I was reading, um,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if they got married. Man, we

387
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: should do I don't know what we would call it,

388
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: but an episode on generally women who who marry serial killers.

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Speaker 1: We totally should in prison. Let's do that, but first

390
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: let's take a break. How about that? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, okay, Chuck,

391
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Speaker 1: we're backward talking about. So Manson's in prison for a

392
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 1: while there. This is just mind blowing to me. For

393
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: a good decade he enjoyed, uh, actually more than that,

394
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: he enjoyed the limelight he he could get. Um, interviewed

395
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: by huge names like you said, Diane Sawyer, Charlie Rose,

396
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: Haraldo Rivera very famously did an interview with um Charles Manson,

397
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: where apparently Manson you were saying how much poise Diane

398
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: Sawyer showed during her interview. Supposedly Manson just owned Haraldo

399
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: during that interview, just totally took control of the whole thing.

400
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: But um, these were things that were televised like on

401
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: on national National News, and and these these people were giving,

402
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: these networks were giving Charles Manson a platform too, talked

403
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: about himself, to talk about his philosophy, to show the

404
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: world how crazy he was. Oh yes, to keep him

405
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: in the public, in the public eye, in the public mind.

406
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: Until finally after the Diane Sawyer interview, they they not

407
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: only pulled the plug on his interviews, they said for

408
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 1: there you couldn't televise interviews with any inmates from in

409
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: California because of Charles Manson. Basically, So, Um, it's just

410
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: really strange to me, especially these days looking back, that

411
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: he had a platform for so long to stay that boogeyman.

412
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: You know that that just scared the Bejesus out of America. Yeah,

413
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: I think those last like whatever, like twenty five years

414
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: in prison with no limelight. Was that had to have

415
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: been like the darkest time of his life because you know,

416
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: he wanted he clearly wanted to be a singing star.

417
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: And in a weird way, he ended up kind of

418
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: getting what he wanted because some of his music ended

419
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: up being recorded by you know, the Guns and Roses

420
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: and the lemon Heads and Um. He became this kind

421
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: of weird u cult figure and not as in uh,

422
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: Jim James cult like like movie type jacket, yeah Jones,

423
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, like a cult figure in uh, revered

424
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: by some people weirdly. It just it's so strange that

425
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: people would look at him that way, you know. So

426
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 1: one person who revered him later on in life was

427
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: a woman I believe he named Star Um. And she

428
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: moved from her parents house in Mississippi out to California

429
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: to be just down the street from where Manson was held.

430
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: And this is she was the woman who was um

431
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: supposed to marry him Um, and she was a follower

432
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: of his. She said she didn't care anything about nineteen

433
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: sixty nine. He so Manson later in life became really

434
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: interested in Um preserving the environment. He came up with

435
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: a thing called at Wa air trees water. I can't

436
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: remember the last a yeah, argon, that would be a right.

437
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: So um, she became very interested in him for his

438
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: ecological stance. Right, and she moved out to be close

439
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: to him and would visit him on weekends. And they

440
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: became very close, and I, I I guess to kind of

441
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: demonstrate to the world that he he still had it,

442
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: I still got it world, he um asked her to

443
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: carve an X in her forehead and she did so. Um.

444
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: She was also big time into collecting and selling Manson memorabilia,

445
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: and Ed points out in this article. I think he's

446
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: referring to her that the whole marriage thing may have

447
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: been a ploy to get at Manson memorabilia. But I

448
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: don't believe that's the case at all. So she actually

449
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: ran a website and still does called Manson Direct dot

450
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: com and it's it's like up to date. So I

451
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: think she had not abandoned him after some big, big

452
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: score with memorabilia. Like she seems to have been the

453
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: real deal follower, like a early Manson family girl reincarnated weird.

454
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: So there were a bunch of other uh I saw

455
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: an article whether at least ten other weird deaths related

456
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: to the Manson family that um some people say could

457
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: have been them or maybe not. I looked into a

458
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: few of them. That was his original or at least

459
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: this guy was originally going to represent Manson, as he

460
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: is an attorney named Ron Hughes. He ended up representing

461
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: I think Leslie van Houghton, but she uh. He disappeared

462
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: while on a There was a ten day recess in

463
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: the trial. So he goes camping with another couple and

464
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: the couple left and he's like, I'm gonna stay on

465
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: here in the woods. He was never seen again, so

466
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: that was a little weird. They never found a body

467
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: or anything. I don't think it wasn't they even though

468
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: he was one of their defense attorneys, they had a

469
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: huge grudge against him because, like you said earlier, Van Houghton, Um,

470
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: cren Winkle, and Atkins were all um or not Atkins,

471
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: I can't remember who the third one was. We're all

472
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: going to to incriminate themselves. So as Leslie van Houten's defense,

473
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: her and he he said, I'm not he rested after

474
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: the prosecution rested. He never presented a defense because he

475
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: knew that they were gonna incriminate themselves and he refused

476
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: to take part in it, so they had a grudge

477
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: against him. So it's possible. Possibly, Uh, there was a

478
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: spawn ranch worker that that disappeared and he would They

479
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: were actually convicted. Some other family members of his murdered.

480
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: His name was Shorty Shade Donald Shorty Shay. That was

481
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: this one dude, Joel Pugh who was married to Sandra

482
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: Good who was a member and he uh, he was

483
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: found dead in his London hotel. He had um It

484
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: was ruled a suicide, but his wrist had been slashed

485
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: and his throat was slashed twice and there was something

486
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: written in blood on the mirror that was erased. You know,

487
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: it's one of these shoddy jobs I think by the

488
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: London cops. But some say it said Jack and Jill.

489
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: Other people say they don't remember what it said. But

490
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: that was definitely a one of those that was like,

491
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: could he have been killed Manson family member? Yeah, well

492
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: this goes on one of those um Manson family members

493
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: who was convicted of killing Shorty Shay had made a

494
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: couple of trips to the UK while Joel Pugh was there,

495
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: so there's even there's even more there's there's definitely weird

496
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: that he died like that. Yeah, you know, having your

497
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: throat slashed in a London hotel, it's weird no matter what. Uh.

498
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: And so like we said, you know, you said at

499
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: the beginning, it was definitely the end of the peace

500
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: love movement, and UM sort of put a pin on

501
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: what the um, what people thought about what a lot

502
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: of people thought about the counter culture, and like, hey,

503
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: this is these are the hippies. They're not peace and love.

504
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: They murder people on drugs and this is what acid

505
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: can do to you. So that was mainstream media. You

506
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: had other um, alternative media or places like Rolling Stone

507
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: that was still a pretty young magazine that would uh

508
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: would not say things like that, would not kind of

509
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: buy into the mainstream media portrayal. But UM it captured

510
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: and still captures a lot of people's um imagination. You know,

511
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: it was a part of the zeitgeist. But it just

512
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: endured for decades after, you know for sure. And Rolling

513
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: Stone actually did a tremendous amount of reporting on UM.

514
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: Charles Manson that was really good at the time. That

515
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: two thou article I read was really good. That was

516
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: from Rolling Stone. You can get into a Manson rabbit

517
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: hole just going onto Rolling Stone's website, and that that

518
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: two thousand UM article I read Chuck the the author.

519
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: Um he I think he kind of summed up Charles

520
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: Manson better than I've seen it anywhere else. But he

521
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: said this, he said, sometimes he can be so transparent,

522
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: which makes him look like nothing more than a goofy,

523
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: klutzy small timer who made some bad decisions that led

524
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: to more bad decisions that led to murder, and who

525
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: then got caught up in an ambitious DA's dream about

526
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: a mastermind saying Gali with demonic visions of world domination.

527
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: Some crook, some outlaw, some gangster, some desperado, probably the

528
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: worst ever, but in the end, a tiny redneck. I

529
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 1: mean that definitely falls in there too. Yeah. So as

530
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: far as these kids go, Um, it's kind of hard

531
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: to get good information because I read a bunch of

532
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: different things. But from what I can tell, he had

533
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: three sons, for sure. Yeah, one with Candy Stevens named

534
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: Charles Luther Manson. Uh, one with Mary Brunner named Valentine

535
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: or Valentine Michael Manson. Those two guys are impossible to

536
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: find anything on. I'm sure they have probably changed their names. Uh.

537
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: There was a Charles Manson Jr. Who killed himself in

538
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: the I think early nineties. Yeah, and then there's this stude.

539
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: Did you see this Matthew Roberts guy. I ran across

540
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: his name, but I don't know anything about him. Well,

541
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: he claims to UH that his mother said, you know what, Um,

542
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: Charles Manson's your dad. We um had sex in an

543
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: orgy in San Francisco in the late sixties, and I

544
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: believe that he is probably your father. Although given that

545
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: it's an orgy, you know, those things go. So that's

546
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: the last That's the last thing you ever want to

547
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: hear your mom tell you that whole story, the whole story,

548
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: from beginning to end. It's just bad news for you,

549
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: the kid. Yeah. So just look this guy up. And

550
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: if he doesn't look like Charles Manson Incarnate, then I

551
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: don't know what to say. But the dude looks exactly

552
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: like him. Um. Here's the deal, though, is he ended

553
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: up He tried to get DNA from the prison, tried

554
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: to smuggle it out, but it got contaminated. The test

555
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: didn't work. He ended up taking a DNA test to

556
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: match with who we know was Charles Manson Jr. Son

557
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: a dude named Jason Freeman, who was you know, the

558
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 1: grandson of Charles Manson, and there was no match there. Um.

559
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: But Matthew Roberts says, well, that doesn't prove anything because

560
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: we've never seen the DNA match from Freeman and Manson,

561
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: so he's still claiming to be his son. And um,

562
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: I mean, the guy looks so much like him. It's

563
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: a little creepy. So it's hard to not say, you know,

564
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: why would his mom make up the story? The guy

565
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: happens to look just like him. Um, but who knows? Um.

566
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: And in the end, his will and supposedly his estate

567
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: is worth money. Um, and I know how much, but

568
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: they say, you know, there could be a lot of

569
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: dough there. And right now there's a legal battle going

570
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: on between Jason Freeman, who was the grandson, and then

571
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: this pen pal that Manson had for like decades named

572
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: Michael Channels, who he scribbled out a will to this guy.

573
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: And he's saying, hey, look, he wrote this will. He

574
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: wants me to have this money. Jason Freeman saying it's mine. Um.

575
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: For their part, they're both saying what they want to do.

576
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: His body's on ice still as they want to uh,

577
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: they both want to scatter his ashes just where no

578
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: one knows. So there it doesn't become like some weird shrine. Yeah,

579
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: but the the ongoing legal battle first will, well, we'll

580
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: see what happens there. So in that star Lady Wade

581
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,959
Speaker 1: in saying if anybody who says he has a will

582
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: is lying that he purposefully said that he was not

583
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: going to leave a will, right, but it would just

584
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: it would be just like Charles Manson to scribble off

585
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: a will, deny that he ever did it, and just

586
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: leave a big mess behind afterwards, you know, yeah, just

587
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: just one more mess for everybody to sort out. So strange,

588
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: so strange, and said absolutely in the sixties there was

589
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: some I know, he talked about the who was that

590
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: one cult that saw the documentary with Father Zod or whatever.

591
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: I mean, that was a crazy documentary that I mean,

592
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: just that whole time was so so strange. It really

593
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: was just people looking for something to belong to, something

594
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: some meaning that wasn't their parents, meaning you know, yeah,

595
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: well all right, Chuck, they found it. By the way

596
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: they found it, they all became stockbrokers in the eighties.

597
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about the Manson family, well,

598
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: like I said, there's rabbit holes all over the internet. Um.

599
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, you can also read this great

600
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: article by egg Grabanowski by typing the words Manson family

601
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: and the search bar how stuff works. And like I said,

602
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: he'll bring up this great grabs or article. Uh and wow,

603
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: I said that it's time for listener. Now I'm gonna

604
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: call this, uh Confederate monuments, well not Confederate monuments, but

605
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: removal of monuments up. So we got a lot of

606
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: great email about that podcast. Um. I don't know how

607
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: many of those you read, but you know, people roundly

608
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: said we did a good fare take on this tricky subject. Yeah.

609
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: I saw that too, which always makes me feel good.

610
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: Uh and a shout out. This is not from her,

611
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: but one of the people who wrote in was an

612
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: artist named ka Uh Kara Walker who just look up

613
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: her work. She is amazing. She she's I think the

614
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: second youngest person to ever received a MacArthur Genius Grant

615
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: and she does He's great. She does a lot of

616
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: stuff and a lot of mediums. But what she's known

617
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: for I think of these room sized um silhouette like

618
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: black cutout silhouettes depicting like statements on race and gender

619
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: and civil rights. And she's just like a rock star

620
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: in the New York art scene. And she went to

621
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: my high school. Yeah, I saw that. I did not

622
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: know that. She introduced herself. She graduated two years ahead

623
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: of me at Redan, So uh. I wrote back to

624
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: her and just told her proud I was to be

625
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: an alum. So anyway, go check out Carl Carl Walker's work.

626
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: That's a mouthful, but this is from someone else. Hey, guys,

627
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: thanks so much for the podcast. I'm a big fan,

628
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: especially enjoyed the Public Monument episode. I'm writing to clarify

629
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: small point about the Georgia state flag that Chuck discussed

630
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: in that episode. I got this thing wrong, by the way.

631
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: You pointed out that Georgia, like some other former Confederate states,

632
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: included the familiar Confederate battle flag with the ex pattern

633
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: and it's state flag from fifty two thousand one. However,

634
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: that flag is not the Stars and Bars. The Stars

635
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: and Bars was the official national flag of the Confederacy

636
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: and is the flag after which the current Georgia flag

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00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: is patterned. It turns out that the flag Georgia used,

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00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: uh TIL was modeled after the national Confederate flag, and

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00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: the state switched to the Confederate battle flag in fifty six.

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00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: And other words, while the most familiar Confederate flag was

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00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: removed in two thousand one, it was replaced with another one.

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Speaker 1: That's so Georgia. I thought we did the right thing. No,

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00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: so I thought you guys to be interested. By the way,

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00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: in Mississippi is the only state that still uses the

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00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: Confederate Battle flag and its official state flag. Keep up

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Speaker 1: the great work. And I don't have a name on

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00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: this one. Well, thanks a lot, I don't have a

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00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: name on this one. That was some good info. We

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00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: appreciate that. And Chuck, that was big of you to

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00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: to say, hey, I got it wrong. I got it wrong.

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00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: That's all right, man, that's all right. Uh if you

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00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: want to write end to tell us we got something wrong,

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00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: lay it on us. That's fine. You can tweet to us.

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00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: I'm at josh um Clark. I also have a website

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00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: called are You Serious clark dot com. There's also an

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00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: official Twitter for Stuff you Should Know called s y

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00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: SK podcast. Chuck's on Facebook dot com slash It's Charles W.

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00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, and there's also an official Facebook dot com

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00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: slash Stuff you Should Know You can send us all

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00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: including Jerry an email to stuff podcasts at how stuff

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00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: Works dot com and has always joined us at our

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00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: home on the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com.

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00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, is

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Speaker 1: that how stuff Works dot com m