1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from how Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chipper, Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry Rowland. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: And we're all in great moods everybody, because it's stuff 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: you should know. Time. Everything else just falls to the 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: wayside when we record stuff you should know. It's just 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: it's the reason we love doing it. Still, after a 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: thousand episodes, do you realize every single listener right now 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: is thinking why are they in a bad mood? And 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: why is Josh being so weird? I don't think I'm 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: being weird? Am I being? Am I overselling it? I 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: think so? Oh sorry, it makes it sound like we 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: all three were in a big fist fight and then 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: Jerry had recorded, right, She's like just jammed to clean 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: X upper nose to staunch the bleeding. I am recovering 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: a bit because we just got back from New York City. Dude, 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: it has been a week. So we did. We did 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: show a show Sunday, a show Monday, in a show Tuesday, 19 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: all sold out at the Bellhouse travel Home Wednesday, and 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: our recording today Thursday. Yes, and I I just want 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: to say, there's no way that people will ever hear 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: Tuesday's episode because it was the filthiest thing we've ever 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: done on stage. It was seriously, man, I don't know 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: what got into us. I think it was night three 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: of three. Uh so that is for the three and 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: fifty people in that room. Yeah, I hope they enjoyed it. 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: It was fun. It was fun, and come on out. 28 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: Whenever we do a live show, you never know for 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: this gonna be like this one's not getting released. Let's 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: just go crazy, you know, especially it was a twenty 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: one and up show, which is really well, that's why 32 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: we for sure why we did it. Yeah, that's what 33 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: took the feedbag off, you know. And that is saying 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: I think so put the feedback on take it off. Yeah, 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: I guess so. I guess so it's not really but 36 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: we'll just pressed forward. How about that. Let's do so, Chuck, 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: I know that you know this, but not everybody knows this. 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: I had a personal conversation with one Charles C. Man, 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: who wrote my favorite book of all time that is correct. 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: Uh And I was talking to Mr Man and he 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: has a I was talking to him. I've got a 42 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: show coming out on Existential Risks eventually, but um, and 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: he's going to be in it, and it's just like 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: interviewed for it. But he has a book coming out 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: this January and it's called The Wizard and the Prophet. 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: Have you heard of it? No? But did you just 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: say that he's going to be uh part of Existential Risks. Yeah, 48 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: he's an Interviewee. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's gonna be pretty 49 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: I was really psyched to just be able to talk 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: to him, and even better than that, like you know, 51 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: we were kind of rapping for a few minutes beforehand, 52 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: and it was just as calm and casual as I 53 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: had always like envisioned talking to him that would be. Yeah, 54 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: it was a really really neat conversation. But he was 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: telling me about the book has coming out, The Wizard 56 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: and the Profit, and it's basically about him trying to 57 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: find out how we can possibly or even if it 58 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: is possible, um sustain ten billion people on planet Earth 59 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: and not just sustained meaning like you know, keeping him alive, 60 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: but how can we do it sustainably? And he goes 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: back and starts digging in and finds that there's this 62 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: long standing head butt between the techno optimists, the people 63 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: who are like, well, we humans are smart enough to 64 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: invent our way out of any problem, and the people 65 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: who are like, no, we need to really like mitigate 66 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we're doing right now to 67 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: to make sure that we actually can keep doing this 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future. Uh. And part of it is 69 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: on Norman borlog Um, and he is the wizard that's 70 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 1: actually absolutely right there. The profit is a guy named 71 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: William voked v O g T. I believe his name, 72 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: and he I don't know nearly as much about him 73 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: as Norman borlog which is say, I know basically zero 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: about him, but he's the prophet, so I will know 75 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: all about him when the book comes out in January. 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: I'm psyched about it. But as I was researching this 77 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: pull Perma Culture article, I was like, you can really 78 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: see that that same head butt, that same push and 79 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: pull between people who are saying we need sustainability and 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: other people are like, we need to feed, you know, 81 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: billions and billions of people. And that really comes together 82 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: in the debate over perma culture and whether it works 83 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: or whether it is just just a pie in the 84 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: sky kind of idea. Well, I have a little something 85 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: to say. I am a bit of an earth well 86 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: not a bit. I'm an urban perma culturist. That's awesome. 87 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: We have not in me as like I don't know 88 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: much of while I do know about the stuff now 89 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: after researching it. But we uh have are redoing our 90 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: front and backyards and we hired a perma culture company 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: to do so. Really, the Perma Culture Pros. That's not 92 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: their name, but maybe it should be. Uh yeah, So 93 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: we're we're we are like right in the middle of 94 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,559 Speaker 1: making our small little piece of Atlanta UM a perma 95 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: culture urban permic I know it's hard to say now 96 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: that I'm saying it out last an urban perm habitat 97 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: if you will herb perm that's right. So I'll be peppering, 98 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, little things here and there. I think that 99 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: would help a lot because UM perma culture, as it 100 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: turns out, and I didn't know really anything about it 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: until we started researching this. UM it is a wooly idea. 102 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: It's tough to pin down, which is really weird because 103 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: it's actually a set of design principles meant to grow 104 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: food for people in a way that's sustainable and not harmful. 105 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: And it basically stands in contradiction of what you would 106 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: consider like big modern and agriculture, which is, we grow 107 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: one kind of food and we squeeze as much as 108 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: we possibly can out of it from the ground we have, 109 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: using as much artificial resources as we possibly need to 110 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: to increase our yield. Yeah, and that's like people throw 111 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: around the word sustainable or unsustainable. Um, and maybe people 112 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: sometimes folks don't even stop to think about what that means. 113 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: Sustainable or I guess we'll start with unsustainable. That means 114 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: that you are you're depleting resources around you, and you're 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: depending very much on bringing in different resources to make 116 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: that thing work. Right, Like you're not just using what's available, 117 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: Like that's what sustainable would be. You're using what's available 118 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: at all works together to ideally sustain itself without saying, well, 119 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: now I need to bring in this thing from where 120 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: we're here to make this these acres of corn grow. Yeah, 121 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: I've got to go burn a bunch of fossil fuels 122 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: to create nitrogen based fertilizer. And uh, it's not going 123 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: to attach to the soil very well, so a lot 124 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: of it will run off and be wasted, and even worse, 125 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: it'll end up in a pond, which will create an 126 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: algae bloom which sucks up all of the dissolved oxygen, 127 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: which creates a fish kill. That's unsustainable. And and it's 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: weird because I hadn't really thought about that either, Chuck. 129 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: But as growing up, as like kids who were sentiented 130 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: in the nineties, you hear unsustainable and it's just basically 131 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: in your mind equated with evil, like almost intentionally malicious 132 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: acts against the earth, and that's just not necessarily the case. 133 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: And that that's another thing about like Norman Borlog the Wizard. Um, 134 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: he had the greatest of intentions, but you can also 135 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: lay at his feet a lot of the ecological problems 136 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: we're facing right now because of agriculture and the agricultural 137 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: practices he helped pioneer in order to feed a bunch 138 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: of people. So there's this this this tension between unsustainability 139 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: and sustainability, but it's also of attention between what's realistic 140 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: and what's not. You know, Yeah, it's definitely a little sticky. 141 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: It is a little sticky, But permaculture basically is trying 142 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: to create like a harmonious, holistic approach to um farming 143 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: and whether it be a large farm or like in 144 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: my case, like an urban a small urban plot. Uh. 145 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: And like I said, well kind of go over both 146 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: of those through my lens and then through the larger 147 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: ideas of the farm. Um. And it's not like Robert 148 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: Lamb wrote this article from stuff to pull your mind. 149 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: He did a good job with it. He does, but um, 150 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: he does point out that you shouldn't. It doesn't necessarily 151 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: mean that you have to go back to caveman days 152 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: and like you have to live like tuk tuk and 153 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: scavenge the earth. Um. He said, to think of it, 154 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: uh in terms of a river, Like you're a boat 155 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: floating down a river and you were sustained by that river, 156 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: but you are also navigating it as well with your 157 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: rudder and if you have to you right now, it 158 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: just increased tenfold. That's right. So yeah, it's it's it's 159 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: not like just passively taking from the land what it 160 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: has to offer. There's still management of it, right, But 161 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: but the idea behind that management of it is is 162 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: managing the land um in a way that that the 163 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: land is happy with you, Like you can walk past 164 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: the dog that's just sitting there looking at you, and 165 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: maybe you know, give it like a wink or something 166 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: like that and keep walking. Um, that's passive. But if 167 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: you stop and scratch it behind the ear, you're managing 168 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: that dog in a way or something like that. You're 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: at least interacting with it more and the dog likes it. 170 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: You could also walk past the dog and like poking 171 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: in the ribs. That's interacting with it in a way 172 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: that the dog wouldn't like. Permaculture is the middle one, right, 173 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: So you're saying, hey, I want to get something out 174 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: of you, like a good feeling, so I'm gonna scratch 175 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: it behind the ear earth. And again, like you said, 176 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: you're doing that by trying to create a system, whether 177 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: it's you're little plot of land or a full scale 178 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: industrial sized farm, um, in a way that it has 179 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: it's sustainable, meaning it requires as few external inputs as possible. 180 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: That's right, But sorry, I just need to point it again. 181 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: It's still being managed. It's still being managed by you, 182 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: just in a harmonious way. Yeah. I think there's a 183 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: word for the other thing where you just just let 184 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: everything do its thing, right. Yeah, that's nature. Maybe like 185 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: wilding or something or rewilding. Have we talked about that? No, 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: we did. I'm probably wrong anyway, although we also thought 187 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: we didn't do a cat episode, So who knows if 188 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: we've talked about it before or not. All right, so 189 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: this all goes back to Australia and see you in 190 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:52,359 Speaker 1: September of next year Australia. Yep, right, yep, get get excited. 191 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: Oh man, you just sold us a million tickets for 192 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: that accent, buddy? Uh in New Zealand, Um, you gotta 193 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: you gotta take it better than that. Well, no, I'm 194 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm super excited about going to New Zealand. I didn't 195 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: want to not mention that, you say in New Zealand. 196 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: In New Zealand. Uh So in Australia in the nineteen 197 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: seventies there were a couple of dudes named Bill Mollison 198 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: and David Holmgren and imagine they were sitting around smoking 199 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: a joint one night and in the version that I 200 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: have in my head, when they dreamed up the word 201 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: perma culture, in which is basically what we've been talking about. 202 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: This is just put a word on it. Um actually 203 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: two words permanent and agriculture. Good point, and they said, 204 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: let's join those up. And he said, and that was it. 205 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: That's how I went down. Uh. And it's a self 206 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: sustaining alternative to like what you were talking about, which 207 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: is mass production of a single crop. And there are 208 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: three basic ethics to the perma culture movement. Um, care 209 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: for the earth, care for the people, and then setting 210 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: limits on population and consumption. Right. And so Mollison, I believe, 211 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: was a professor at the time and Homegren was a student, 212 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: and they they split within a few years. They had 213 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: creative differences. I guess you could kind of call it. 214 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: They both like pursued perma culture, but through different ways. 215 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: So Mollison is frequently um accused, or was I think 216 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: he may have passed um accused of being kind of 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: a dogmatic, um charismatic, egomaniac maybe where it was like, 218 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: it's more way, you're the high way, um, and and 219 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: that that extended to even principles of perman culture, right, 220 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: like if he said it, it was just that was 221 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: just true. Whereas Homegrown apparently took a little more of 222 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: a pragmatic approach to studying it, finding out the best practices, 223 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: discarding the ones that didn't work. Even if they were 224 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: like precious to everybody, including the entire Perma culture movement, 225 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: and and movement is actually the right word, because there 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: is like this definite um well, like Mollison put the 227 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: cult in permit culture, you know what I'm saying, Like, 228 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: there's definitely an adherency to it that's kind of fervent. 229 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: You know that that the whole movement gets criticized for, 230 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: rightfully or wrongly, but they they both kind of um. 231 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: I think the fact that they did split probably added 232 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: to this field even more because there's two different courses 233 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: of study or of um thinking about it, at least 234 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: um that were able to develop in tandem. Yeah, and 235 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: this stuff is nothing new. They didn't intervent this idea 236 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: because took took in the gang way back in the 237 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: ancient days did things like this. They worked with what 238 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: they had. They didn't have four acres of corn. They 239 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: had they did forest farming, they had crop rotation, they composted, 240 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: they had multiple crops. Uh. And they were not just 241 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: out to be leading pioneers and environmentalism. They were that 242 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: was just the way you work the earth back then. 243 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: And that's a lot of what perman culture is all about. 244 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: Is returning to this idea of of just sort of 245 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: doing it the smart right way. Uh. And again, this 246 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: is probably not going to be the thing that feeds 247 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: the world. But that's not to say you can't have 248 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: a perman culture movement in farms and urban perman culture 249 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: going on. Well, that's one of the things that it 250 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: gets criticized about is that people, um who are big 251 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: time adherents of perman culture do tend to say, like, uh, yeah, 252 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: this is this is what we need to feed the world, 253 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: and if we don't do this, then there's not going 254 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: to be people around two feed because we're going to 255 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: wreck the earth and die from climate change. Yeah. I 256 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: get that, but I think I come from the like 257 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: reality camp, and you're not going to undo conventional modern farming. 258 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: You're not gonna just completely supplant that anymore. It's kind 259 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: of too late. I agree with you. I am of 260 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: the same mindset. Um. I do think though that you 261 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: these practices are most of them should be incorporated as 262 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: best as possible. That'd be great. So I think there's 263 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: a happy medium between you know, big big time monoculture 264 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: agriculture and pure perma culture, just because they're both probably 265 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: unsustainable for what we need, which is to feed a 266 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: bunch of people in a way that doesn't wreck the earth. Yeah, 267 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: I'm with you, man. Should we take a break? All right, 268 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a little, uh, a little pause for 269 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: the cause and then come back. That was so corny 270 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: and so I'm like a radio dj uh and then 271 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: come back and talk about design principles of perman culture 272 00:15:42,480 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: right after this. Okay, you're back, We're back. Are we back? 273 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: I'm back. Okay, I'm back to Jerry. You're back. She's back. 274 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: She's back. So um, Like I said early on Chuck, 275 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: the permaculture is a little it's wooly. It's a wooly idea. 276 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: There's so many different definitions of it, and as a result, 277 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: it's it's um image kind of suffers in the mind 278 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: of rational skeptics. Right. But I did find one um 279 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: one definition of it that I thought really got the 280 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: whole point across the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally 281 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: productive systems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of 282 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: natural ecosystems. That's a big one. There's a second half 283 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: even it is the harmonious integration of the landscape with 284 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: people providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and 285 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: non material needs in a sustainable way. That is a 286 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: great definition. I agree wholeheartedly. And I'm not sure who 287 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: the actual person who who said or wrote it was, 288 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: because it's it was misattributed to at least three different people. 289 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: But regardless, it's a great definition. We should just throw 290 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: your name in there too. Sure we'll say I said it. 291 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: So you said you brought up the three basic ethics, right, 292 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: the care for earth, care for people, and setting limits 293 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: on population. I feel like we should kind of go 294 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: over those a little in depth, don't you think. Yeah, 295 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: care for earth is um it's not just like a 296 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: lot of this is about plants, of course, but it's 297 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: also animals and insects and how the air moves through 298 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: the area and minerals in the earth. Um, And it's 299 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: basically respecting all of the things within the ecosystem. How's that? 300 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: I think that's great? Care for people right? So basically 301 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: that's saying like, um, that there's an importance to community. 302 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: It's every person isn't just an island, right, and that 303 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: this is a big one too, that access to resources 304 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: is a human right and it's easy to take that 305 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: for granted. You know where in places where you you 306 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: have easy access to um land or water or something 307 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: like that, but in places as diverse as Flint, Michigan, 308 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: or Central America, they're there the access to good stuff 309 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: like water is highly restricted or the water is just 310 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: not good. So the idea that everybody should have easy, cheap, 311 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: if not free, access to something like clean water is 312 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: that's a that's a big one. That's that's kind of 313 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: radical in a weird way these days. Yeah. And as 314 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: far as the limits on population and consumption, Robert puts 315 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: it as recognizing how you have to reinvest money in 316 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: surplus labor and energy into caring for the planet. Like 317 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: it's it's it takes work. Right, So those are like 318 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: the three ethics. That's not how you go permacal ulture. 319 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: That's just kind of the basis for the designs to permaculture, right. 320 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: And I think, um, you said that this is this 321 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: is not new, right, this is something that's been around 322 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: for a very long time or these some of these 323 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: ideas are the sustainable practices are adopted from like generations 324 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: and generations of proven techniques, right, Um, which is pretty 325 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: interesting if you ask me. That's another thing too. If 326 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: if you if you have not read have you read 327 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: fourteen ninety one yet? Oh man, you have to read it. 328 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: It talks about this kind of stuff where like they 329 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: they from just looking into it, they've and they've found 330 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: that there's always sophisticated land management techniques that were just 331 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: totally lost the time until um archaeologists started discovering them. 332 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: And at first they didn't even realize what they were 333 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: looking at, and they'd be like, well, there's a lot 334 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: of kind of weird hills in this this area, it's 335 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: otherwise pretty flat, and then they realized, oh wait, this 336 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: is entire system of berms that used to be planted. 337 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: And in between the berms were aquaculture ponds where they 338 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: raised fish, and they were just doing all the sophisticated 339 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: stuff that no one had any idea. That book is 340 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: just all about chasing that stuff down and figuring it out. 341 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: So so good, Chuck, one day you'll read it, right 342 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, So before the break, I promise some 343 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: design principles and there are believed like ten of these 344 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: in our article. And it breaks down like this, and 345 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: this is this is talking about a farm, but we 346 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: have incorporated in this company that's come in is incorporating 347 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: these most of these same principles within like our place 348 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: as small as our backyard, for instance, zones. We have 349 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: divided our yard up into zones now, uh, And basically 350 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: in the case of a farm, it's a little bit different. 351 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: They divide areas into zones based on based on the 352 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: and all this stuff. It's just sort of makes sense, 353 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: and it's all seems like it would be intuitive and 354 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: how tuk tuk would have done it. So it divides 355 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: into zones based on like how much attention certain things 356 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: need on the farm and what does it require out 357 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: of people in the different areas. And so if if 358 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: you think of it as a circle, you got your 359 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: farm in the center. So obviously the stuff that needed 360 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: the most attention would be closest to the center where 361 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: the people are. And then as you go out and out, uh, 362 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: the activity uh decreases, like the human activity, and things 363 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: are allowed like maybe trees to grow a little more wildly. Right, Yeah, 364 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: So like the zone is kind of like riffles in 365 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: in a pond or something right there, concent concentric circles, yeah, 366 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: radiating from the center. And I guess the center is 367 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: the actual farmer, in this case your house. Uh yeah, okay, 368 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: so that's understandable enough. And then you look into something 369 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: called sectors, and that's kind of similar, it seems like, 370 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: but it's actually not. With sectors again, the center of 371 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: the whole, the whole um permana culture land or whatever, 372 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: is the farm where the people live or whatever. And 373 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: then the the zone or the sector's radio outwards. So 374 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: the whole thing is one big circle around the center, 375 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: but this time it's sliced into like like pizza slices. 376 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Basically alright, I'm hungry enough, okay, So but with that, 377 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: so that doesn't mean like you do sectors or zones. 378 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: These are two different ways of looking at the land 379 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: that will overlay one another. Right, And I've seen a 380 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: couple of places that recommend if you're setting up a 381 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: perma culture farm, you want to spend basically an entire 382 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: year doing nothing but observing. Don't plant anything, don't cut 383 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: anything down, don't dig a pond, don't do anything like that. 384 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: Just observe. Figure out where the sun is at different 385 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: parts of the year, where does the wind come from, 386 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: where does the water go, um are there pollutants that 387 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: come on the property that you need to to you know, 388 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: manage where do the animals, Like if there's deer that 389 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: come in and eat the eat the garden, like, where 390 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: would they be coming from? And so that's what you 391 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: base the sectors on. And then that that creates kind 392 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: of like this underlying map beneath the zones. Does that 393 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: make sense? Yes? Okay? And I got that one right, Yeah, 394 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: I think so? Okay. I mean I'm sure a perma 395 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: culture expert would say, oh boys, right. Uh. Relative locations 396 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: another important part of permaculture. That is basically designing things 397 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: and again in a way that makes sense relative to 398 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: one another. So the great example that Robert gives is 399 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: is planning a crop downhill from a pond. That way, 400 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: it's downhill, you don't need to install a pump system. 401 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: The whole idea of sustainability and so if you can 402 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: have the stuff you need to water downhill from your water, 403 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: then you have just created a stable environment. Right, And 404 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: that one is um there's a it's an actual design principle. 405 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: Like David Holmegrin came up with twelve of them. One 406 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: of them was called integrate rather than segregate, and that 407 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: one's definitely part of that. That's right. There's also um 408 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: having single elements with multiple functions. Right, So going back 409 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: to that, like a pond example, um upon also um 410 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: not only serves as a source for irrigation, but it's 411 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: also a water source for your livestock. And depending on 412 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: where you put it, it also acts as a barrier 413 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: between your livestock and the edge of your property. So 414 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: you don't even need offense because cows aren't going to 415 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: swim across the pond. No, you try to find one 416 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: doing it, they won't do it. Or a hedge, a 417 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: hedge lovely hedge connect as a wind block, things like that, 418 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: right or and and it can also like produce seeds 419 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: that your chickens eat right right, or shade if you 420 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: need shade, right and so all that, I mean that 421 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: just makes total sense. Of course you want to do that. 422 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: But when you stop and think about the fact that 423 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: they don't do this on big modern farms, like this 424 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: stuff is not that's just wasted area where you could 425 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: be planting more corn, you know what I mean. Yeah, 426 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: and they don't do Most people don't think about this 427 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: when they're designing their home backyards either they want they 428 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: just say this looks pretty. That looks pretty, uh, and 429 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: it and it may be laid out in such a 430 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: way that it's completely unharmonious and working against each other 431 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: at times. Likewise, that thing, Diane, it's so pretty, it's like, well, 432 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not where it should be. Another permit 433 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: culture principle that stands in stark opposition to monoculture is 434 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: having a single thing um have just one function, or 435 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: have okay, a bunch of different things serving as fail 436 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: safes to one another. See what I'm saying. So like 437 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: that pond um can also provide water, right, so it's 438 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: a it's a water reservoir um. But you may also 439 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: have rain barrels on site as well. So you have 440 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: all these different things serving multiple functions but also serving 441 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: backups to the functions that they share with one another. 442 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: And again, this is the idea that you're doing this 443 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: if you take the time to diversify. Like this is 444 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: where the idea that you you shouldn't put all of 445 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: your eggs in one basket. It came from the farm. 446 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: And this is this pert Like some of these principles 447 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: are just getting back to that very simple maxim which 448 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: is you have to diversify, and the more you diversify, 449 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: the better off you're gonna be. If something befalls, like 450 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: if an avian flu wipes out your chicken flock, well, 451 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: if all you do is raise chickens, you're ruined. Your 452 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: your family is going to start, You're gonna lose all 453 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: of your money, and the farm is going to be 454 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: taken from you. If chickens are just one part of 455 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: a larger holistic farm you have going on, then you 456 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: lose your chickens, and that's awful, but you still have 457 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,959 Speaker 1: You know you can you can out off a cow's 458 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: foot and chew on that for the winter. You know 459 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: where the chicken and the eggs in the basket comes from. Right, 460 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: Little Bobby Joe going out to get the chicken eggs 461 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: one morning, taking one basket, he says, Paul, I got him, 462 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: don't don't fret, And then he trips on the way 463 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: back and breaks all his eggs, and Pau says, put 464 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: all the chicken eggs in one basket. Now, ain't got 465 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: no eggs. And then Bobby Joe says, will then Paul 466 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: have more kids or get more baskets? That's right, and 467 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: that happened in December of eighteen forty two in Georgia. 468 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: That's right. Those were my relatives. That was a great ware. 469 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: They choc taw no, no, no, this is from the 470 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: other side of the family, the other side. Okay, yes, 471 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: you can say, the redneck side. Uh. Energy efficiency is 472 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: a big deal using energy efficient designs, whether or not 473 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: you're straight up using like wind power or solar or 474 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: you can just simply, like I said, build in a 475 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: way where you have natural wind breaks built in or 476 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: places to allow the wind to come through and spread 477 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: seed and stuff like that. Right. Uh, My favorite dude 478 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: of all is the biological resources, let's hear it. So 479 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: it's just basically using nature to help solve the problems 480 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: that you have. Right. So Um Mollison one of the 481 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: creators of it. What is his first name again, Bill 482 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: Bill Mollison. He had a saying you don't have a 483 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: snail problem, you have a duck deficiency, which is to 484 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: say that that was a great T shirt too. It 485 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: was for a little while. It was almost out sold 486 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: gas grass or you know, right, Um. But the premise 487 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: of it is that if you are over hum with snales, 488 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: get more ducks because the ducks are gonna eat the snails. 489 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: And it's fine. It's good to have ducks because they 490 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: do other stuff too, like they walk around and poop 491 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: um all over your property, fertilizing it as they're doing. Right. So, um, 492 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: the just to kind of take a take a step 493 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: back and look at it like, okay, what how just say, 494 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: like what would nature do? That's a great way to 495 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: solve your problems through permit culture. Um. Another one is 496 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: um using pigs or chickens to till the ground and 497 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: to actually rotate where you plant crops every year, and 498 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: so this year's pig pen is next year's crop land 499 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: because you can move the pigs onto another area and 500 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: they'll turn it all muddy and turn it up and 501 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: and get it ready for planting, just like they did 502 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: for this year's crop land that you're using. Now, pretty 503 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: great insects too, Yeah, very big thing to bring in 504 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: the right kinds of plants, to attract the right kinds 505 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: of insects, to take care of the wrong kinds of insects. Right, 506 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: But this raises an issue though too. Um. One of 507 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: the criticisms of permit cultures. It's like, well, where you're 508 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: gonna bring in those insects from right. So if, for example, 509 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: if you order ladybugs online, it can actually be really 510 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: bad for the ladybugs that live in your area because 511 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: if they are lab raised or farm raised ladybugs, they 512 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: very frequently carry a parasite that you're bringing now into 513 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: your neighborhood and you can wipe out the existing native 514 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: ladybug population. So what do you do? Well? The permit 515 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: culture way would be to say, I need to attract 516 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: more native ladybugs because I got a FIDS on my 517 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: lemon trees. So how do I do that? Well, you 518 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: just plant more high pollinating plants like sunflowers and um 519 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: voila native ladybugs parasite free. I love it. I didn't 520 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: know people about ladybugs online. Yeah, I know that because 521 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: I've had a FIDS before I looked into it, he said, Duck, 522 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: I got a FIDS in my lemon tree. Shot. Plant 523 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: succession is another design principle. UM. If you think about 524 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: how land was before people were messing around with it. 525 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: In a natural scene, UM, things that just sort of 526 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: grow and develop as they as nature intended, and fields 527 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: might be barren and then grow into weeds, and that 528 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: that that might eventually grow into plants that may eventually 529 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: grow into trees, and then what do you know, You 530 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: have a forest. Right, So Robert makes the case like 531 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: that's apparently the natural progression of a temperate area that 532 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: if you leave it alone for long enough, it's going 533 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: to turn into a forest. I didn't realize that. I 534 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: guess it makes sense. So this is basically saying, well, 535 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: how can we how can we do that if that's 536 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: the way the plant, if that's the way that the 537 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: area wants to be, how can we accommodate that while 538 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: also getting um, you know, food food staples from that too. Right. 539 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: There's also a nutriment recycling, which is basically composting. And 540 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: I was thinking the other day, I don't answer enough 541 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: when asked to what my favorite episode is. Composting is 542 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: definitely up there. That was a great one. All right, 543 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: if you're digging this episode at all, go listen to 544 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: composting if you haven't already, it's a good one. Yeah. 545 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: And finally, diversity, uh, raising multiple crops um, having different 546 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: kinds of animals. Like we said, we've kind of been 547 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: beaten up on corn. But that's the ideas and not 548 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: have you know, a thousand acres of a thing and 549 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: have many different things. So, like you said, the benefits 550 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: there if if something comes along that is an illness 551 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: to a crop, you're not wiped out completely, right, you know. 552 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: So speaking of wiping out, let's take a break for 553 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: a second. Okay, are you wiped out? I'm a little 554 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: wiped I need to regenerate here. Okay, Okay, we'll be 555 00:32:42,880 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: right back. Okay, we're back. I'm feeling restored. Chuck good, Well, 556 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: he took a nap on my shoulder and that always helps. 557 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: I got a little jewel on your sleep. Okay. So 558 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: when when you're talking about this, like design principles are 559 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: great and and good and they are really interesting to me. 560 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: I think ecology is incredibly fascinating. Um. But there to 561 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: actually feed people, you have to take them into action 562 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: and like do something. And people have been trying this 563 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: right to varying degrees of success, and more importantly, to 564 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: varying degrees of scientific study. Um. I ran across a 565 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: professor and I believe the UK, at a place called 566 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: Schumacher College. Her name is Bethan Stag and she I 567 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: get the impression Schumacher College is a little crunchy. I 568 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: think they're the fighting granola just a tad But one 569 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: of the things they teaches permaculture, and so Beth and Stagg, 570 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the professors there, um basically studied this permaculture 571 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: next to traditional like gardening um plots that are the 572 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: same size there there like everything's the same, the amount 573 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: of wind and rain and sun they're getting. The differences 574 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: one is one is cultivated in a through perma culture methods. 575 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: The other ones more just like traditional gardening like go 576 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: by fertilizer and stuff like. It depends on your definition 577 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: of one. Well, which one was lying dead in the 578 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: field afterwards the regular gardener. They both got a couple 579 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: of good licks in on one another. Ultimately, I think 580 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: most people would say that the traditional gardening UM or 581 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: the the normal modern gardening method one. The reason why 582 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: it one was because for a hundred for every hundred 583 00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: square meters of land, it yielded thirteen of edible food. 584 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: The permit culture one yielded two point three kilograms per 585 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: hundred meters. So far far far less food was grown. 586 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: But there's a couple of things you got to point 587 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: out here. There was also far, far far less time 588 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: put into the perman culture plot, because that's one of 589 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: the tenants of permit culture is just like like plant 590 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: this stuff and then just forget about it. You're not 591 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: ever supposed to mess with it again except to harvest stuff. 592 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: There's an emphasis on perennials rather than annuals. There's far 593 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: less inputs that are meant to be made into it. 594 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: It's just supposed to be like a like a little 595 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: engine you you build and then start and it just 596 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: keeps going forever. So far less time and far less 597 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: effort on the permit culture side, so it kind of 598 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: wins in that respect, right. But then also there was 599 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: over this three year study there were also at least 600 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: one year where the weather was really bad, and so 601 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: the normal modern gardening suffered as a result, whereas the 602 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: perma culture one, which was more diversified I had about 603 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: the same yield as the other years. So so they 604 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: both won. They're all winners. It's like a soccer game. Yeah, 605 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: And I think the idea too, is it's not like 606 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: like that's the kind of test that should be carried 607 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: out over a hundred years. Almost, Yes, And the whole 608 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: point is that though still that perma culture is not like, 609 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: they're not saying we will shall create more yield than 610 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: any other farm. That's not the whole point. Again, though 611 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: it depends on who you talk to. There are definitely 612 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: perman culture adherents out there who think that anyone who 613 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: doesn't use permacultures, anydiget who's ruining, ruining the planet and 614 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: this is the way. No, I'm not saying that. But 615 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: are they saying that they can they can provide more 616 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: yield the conventional farming. I think if you backed them 617 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: into a corner, they would probably hedge that. But I 618 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: think that when they're amongst themselves, they may yes, okay 619 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: there like you guys, totally no, we can't comp okay, 620 00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: we just wanna talk about it. Shut up, simon. Um. 621 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: So there are people doing this to varying degrees all 622 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: over the world. Whether or not is uh. If you 623 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: have a full scale permaculture farm, then you are almost 624 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: likely to be a pomic perma culture activist. For an educator, um, 625 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: it's not something you're doing lightly. You may also be 626 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: someone who's like, well, you know, part of my part 627 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: of my farm here, I'm doing in in such a 628 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: manner part of it. I'm not, um, but there are 629 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: things that you can do even at your own home, 630 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: like a forest garden. Well that that's like what perma 631 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: culture seems to really be best at is is backyard gardening. Yeah, 632 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 1: so tell him about the forest garden because I found 633 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: this fascinating. Man. Yeah. I mean, if you've got a 634 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: if you have a back lawn that is just a 635 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: big grass lawn. Um. And you know, during our grass episode, 636 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: we we didn't get preachy, but a lot of people 637 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: will say, like, that's the worst thing you can do 638 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: is just to have a huge flat thing of grass 639 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: as far as what's good for the earth. And that's 640 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: a total I mean once in that I think I 641 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: remember we talked about that literally being just like an 642 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: American creation and the fifties or something. No, it was 643 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: than that, Yeah, but yeah, I'm pretty sure it was 644 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: pretty American. Yeah. So a forest garden is a food 645 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 1: garden that you build or plant. You build it out 646 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: of wood and iron in your backyard to that imitates 647 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: a natural forest. So you're trying to sort of replicate 648 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: what you might find in that natural setting in your yard. Uh. 649 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: And this is gonna, like you said, make things a 650 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: little easier on you because you're not gonna have to 651 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: rotate crops or till like you normally would. Um, and 652 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: everything is just sort of working together. And and Robert 653 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: has sort of a four part example for layers, if 654 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: you will, starting with trees, which are gonna obviously the 655 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: big guts sing in that forest garden. They're gonna eat 656 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: most of that sunlight. But they're also gonna let dappled 657 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: light through, which can be great growing conditions for certain things. Right. Um, 658 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: so the there's you're gonna grow things like blackberries or 659 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: leaf lettuce or strawberries. Um, any vines that are shade 660 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: loving that there that produce food. But the point of 661 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: this is like the tree isn't just like, well, here's 662 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: a tree, isn't that great? Um, It's like the tree 663 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: also provides stability for the vine to climb up, right, 664 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: like you said, it provides shade for these shade loving plants. 665 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: And I guess the point. And I didn't really see 666 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: anywhere explained why people do this. I know it's like 667 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: an ancient technique from um South America, I believe, like 668 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: in the Brazilian rainforest it's used to great impact the trees. Yeah, 669 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: forest egro forest tree basically is what it's called. But um, 670 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: the I did really see what the benefits of it are, 671 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: especially if it limits you to shade loving food plants, right, 672 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: because there's plenty of food plants out there that don't 673 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: love shade. Isn't that correct? Yeah? It, well, I guess 674 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: let me talk about what we're doing. So this lady 675 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: came in and she's a company owner, and she takes 676 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: a look at our yard and she's basically instead of saying, hey, 677 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: let's plant a tree that will take twenty years to 678 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: grow to provide whatever shade and then go, she's like, 679 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: let's let's look at what you got now, because Atlanta 680 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: is an urban forest on its own, as you know, 681 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 1: and there are trees everywhere, so we we had existing 682 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: trees and stuff, and she basically just sort of looks 683 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: at everything, draws up a design, and then comes back 684 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: to us and said, here's what we're gonna do. Um. 685 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: And that she's working mainly with Emily because this was 686 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: sort of her initiative and she knew more about it 687 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: than I did. And Emily, it's more of the gardener 688 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: in the family. Emily. Yeah, but I was on board, 689 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, and I was it in on these meetings, 690 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: going this sounds great, this sounds great. Uh. So she 691 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: would say, all right, you have shade over here, so 692 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,280 Speaker 1: why don't we think about this here, um, like blueberry bushes. Um, 693 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: this is where you might want to think about putting 694 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: your herbs and downwind from there because of how the 695 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: way the wind blows through your yard. You might want 696 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: to think about this there. And we can move. Like 697 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: we had certain things that we wanted to keep, like 698 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: some azaleas and some roses and things, and she was like, 699 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,720 Speaker 1: we gotta move those because they're not in the right place. 700 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: So we'll put that over here, move this over there, 701 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: and then before you know it, she's drawn a schematic 702 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: for a sustainable backyard that all works together. And you know, 703 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: the the insects from the one plant are close to 704 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 1: the where they need to be to to help kill 705 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: insects that affect the other plant. And you know, I wish, I, well, 706 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,919 Speaker 1: it's probably great to get too wonky over my yard, 707 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: but it just all works together in harmony, and we're 708 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: doing it in stages. The main thing, big big change 709 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,959 Speaker 1: that we've done, aside from rearranging and planting new things. 710 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: Is we got a a cistern finally, so we have 711 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: a big huge jeez, I don't even know how many 712 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: gallons I want to say, like gallon. No, it's large. 713 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's as big as that's that's an above 714 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: ground swimming pool. I think you're describing. Is it is 715 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: that too many gallons? That's a lot. I don't know. 716 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: Let's let's say this. It is as big as a 717 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: it's like half as big as a Volkswagen Beetle. Wow, 718 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,879 Speaker 1: it's large. So this is under our deck, so it's 719 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: not an is or anything. Um, all the gutters in 720 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,439 Speaker 1: the house, all the water that falls onto our roof 721 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: is fed into this cistern. And then that cistern has 722 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: pipes that they trenched and they go all underground throughout 723 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: the whole yard and just sort of uh leech water 724 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: where it needs to be. And then there's also a 725 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: couple of pumps. We didn't have spigots in our backyard. Um, 726 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: we still don't. It's been awful, you know, we haven't 727 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: had a We've had to run like hundreds of feet 728 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: of hose every time we wanted to water anything. And 729 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: it just feels wasteful anyway, and so we didn't have 730 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: backyards pickets. So now we have these two posts with 731 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: the little pumps and it's sort of gravity fed in 732 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: a way, like if the cistern is full and you 733 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: turn that pump on, it'll water will flow some. But 734 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: then we have an actual pump installed on the cistern 735 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: to where we can actually use a sprinkler if we 736 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: want to. But but the the pump is squirrel run 737 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: by a hamster wheel, right, and it's it's located in 738 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: the the chestnut tree, so it's kind of attract the 739 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: squirrels anyway. Now it's sadly it does run an electricity. 740 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: I wish it was hooked up to solar, but we're 741 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: not that far along yet. That's pretty cool though, Man, 742 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: that's a that's a neat pro plane you got. It's 743 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: pretty awesome. And guess what we have a swale. Oh, 744 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: I was hoping we were going to be able to 745 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: talk about sils. Yeah, Robert didn't include this in his article, 746 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: but I sent you know a thing on swales, And 747 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: we have a swale, which is to say, in the 748 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: back right corner of our yard. Now we have a 749 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,879 Speaker 1: a tiny pond it's only about five ft across by 750 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: five ft across, and it is around and it has 751 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: a like a round berm around it, so, uh, you know, 752 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: it's like a little hill and a swale. The definition 753 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: of a swale it is a is a level ditch 754 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: that has dug across whatever site you're in with a 755 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: purpose of stopping the flow of water in order to 756 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: make the water slowly filter into the land instead of 757 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: rushing over it. And the idea there is is that 758 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: most people design their yards uh so water won't accumulate 759 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,319 Speaker 1: and it will run It's graded in such a way 760 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: that water rain water will just run off of it 761 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. And that's you know, that's very wasteful. 762 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,280 Speaker 1: And that's not how the ground. The ground is supposed 763 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: to accept the water. I know that sounds so hippy, 764 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: but in an ideal situation, the ground x steps the 765 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 1: water into it and it's not dry a day later. 766 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: It is actually feeding the ground. And so this swale 767 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:13,760 Speaker 1: now has a has a a runoff from the cistern, 768 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: So when the cistern gets too full, the water will 769 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: then run out into the swale and just sort of 770 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: slowly lead into the ground. Around it, or if we 771 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: get just tons of tons of rain, obviously the swale 772 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: will collect it and the water will leach it to 773 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: the ground around it. That's very cool. That is swale. 774 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: It's it is super swale. But it was an important part. 775 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: Like when this lady came over, she's like, we gotta 776 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: have a swale. Yeah, alright, Like swales are my biggest seller, 777 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: and right now it's not the most attractive thing in 778 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: the world. But over time we're planning. Instead of grass 779 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: and between everything or even maltu, we're doing groundcover. I 780 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: can't remember the specific variety, but groundcover or malt are 781 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: the two most sustainable ways to treat your yard period. Yeah, 782 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: that makes sense because the multiple break down right and 783 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 1: degrade and become nutrients. Yeah. So it's it's pretty neat, 784 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: Like we've got a good scene. It's going to be 785 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: years in the making. Well that's another thing too. I mean, 786 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: like you've got to be very patient with this kind 787 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: of stuff. That's great man. Anywhere there are and I'm wondering, um, 788 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: you seem to have a pretty realistic approach to perma 789 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: culture though, Like you're not going to save the world 790 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: with your backyard it sounds like, but it's certainly not 791 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: hurting some of the issues that the world is facing 792 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: right now. We're just trying to create our own little 793 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: sustainable habitat. So there are there are we should mention 794 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: some criticisms of perma culture. A lot of criticisms of 795 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: perman culture we should say, but um, they you know, 796 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: we've kind of hit on a couple of them. But 797 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 1: the big one probably is that it's not rigorously tested 798 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: scientifically enough that it's just kind of taken like, oh, yeah, 799 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: that that would work intuitively, and then that it's just 800 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: left at that in a lot of ways. So there 801 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: are people like Beth and Stagg who I mentioned in 802 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,720 Speaker 1: other people around the world who are starting to apply 803 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: science to these things to say this one works, let's 804 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: keep at it. Uh, this one works better if you 805 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: do it this way, or this one doesn't work at all, 806 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,359 Speaker 1: don't waste your time. Um. And as long as they're 807 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: doing that, permaculture deserves any respect it can get because 808 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: it really is again intuitively, it makes a lot of sense. 809 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: But um, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true in fact, 810 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: which is why you got to study that kind of thing. Yeah, 811 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: and the other thing that I saw in the Robert's 812 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: article that did make sense to me was one of 813 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: the criticisms was to Mullissen himself because he apparently had 814 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: a stress on bringing in exotic plants. Uh, and that 815 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: goes counter to everything that our lady for her company 816 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: talked about. She is all about native plans, only native plants. 817 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: And Mullison's response was, well, we've already screwed up the 818 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: earth so bad that we're not trying to preserve ecosysts 819 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: says they are specifically where um, we're trying to make 820 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: them better through management. And it's like, um, actually just 821 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: contradicted everything you said back in And I think that's 822 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: a pretty good example of from what I understand of 823 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: that guy. He's like, well, this is what I'm saying now, 824 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,919 Speaker 1: so this is true, you know what I mean? That's 825 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: just and I've never met him, never heard him speak 826 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 1: anything like that, just from reading about him. That's the 827 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,760 Speaker 1: impression that I have. So to the Mules and family, sorry, 828 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: if that's not right, Do you have anything else? Got 829 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,720 Speaker 1: nothing else? You'll have to come over in in two years, 830 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: I'll take you upon you to see it. Now. I've 831 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: been waiting for this invitation for ten years twelve total. 832 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: All right, Uh, if you want to know more about 833 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,320 Speaker 1: permit culture, you can type that word into the search 834 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: bar how stuff works. And uh, since I said search bars, 835 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,440 Speaker 1: sime for listener mail, I'm gonna call this harrowing story 836 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: from a fashion design In turn. Yeah, it's a good one, 837 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 1: and I got her permission. Hey, guys, listen to internships. 838 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: I wanted to say thanks for addressing this issue. When 839 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: I was in college, I went to work or I 840 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: wanted to work in the fashion industry, and the internship 841 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: process was very difficult and exploitive. I managed to somehow 842 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,280 Speaker 1: get an internship without any connections, which felt nearly impossible, 843 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: and worked my first gig for a top designer and 844 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,799 Speaker 1: she did not name the designer, and a follow up 845 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: email she did, but then said maybe don't read it, 846 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: but it's a top designer. And not only was the 847 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: internship unpaid and one of the most expensive cities in 848 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,399 Speaker 1: the world, but I was also expected to wear an 849 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: all black, fashionable wardrobe at all times, so I had 850 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: to find housing in New York by all new clothes. Luckily, 851 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: my parents were able to help me out there, but 852 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: I hated how prohibitive the whole thing was. While I 853 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: was with that designer, the Condonast lawsuits were going on, 854 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: and I remember people saying the lawsuit was just another 855 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,479 Speaker 1: example stereotypical millennial entitlement. That's obviously not the case, because, 856 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's a social issue. Because of my internship, 857 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: I was able to get more experiences in the fashion 858 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: industry and eventually a full time job in New York 859 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: after I graduated. Everyone I work with now had unpaid, 860 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: fashioned internships, and almost everyone I work with as white, 861 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: upper class and from a good school. Unpaid internships have 862 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: led to bigger problems and diversity that I think really 863 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: have hurt the fashion industry. You always hear about how 864 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,240 Speaker 1: retail and department stores are dying. Well, all the companies 865 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: are run by old, white, straight dudes, and we lack 866 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 1: a variety of perspectives which prevents innovation. I'm glad I 867 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: had internships and I learned a lot, but I think 868 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: the internship market really needs to change. So thanks again 869 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: for addressing this. With a lot of people listen to 870 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,799 Speaker 1: your podcast and reevaluate how they do things at their 871 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,280 Speaker 1: own companies. And that's from Gail thanks a lot, Gail, 872 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: nice one. Actually, uh, if you want to get in 873 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: touch with us, like Gail did, you can tweet to us. 874 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: I'm at s Y s K podcast or at Josh M. Clark, 875 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,399 Speaker 1: Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant on Facebook and at 876 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,280 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know on Facebook. I'm on there too somewhere, 877 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: although I'm not sure where. You can send us all 878 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: an email, including Jerry J. E. R. I to Stuff 879 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 1: Podcast at how stuff Works dot com and in the meantime, 880 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: hang out with us at our home on the web 881 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know dot com for more on this 882 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,919 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works 883 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:41,839 Speaker 1: dot com