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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, they're Happiness Lab listeners. Today, I have a

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Speaker 1: really special treat for you. You see, there's this amazing

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Speaker 1: podcast called ten Percent Happier, hosted by Dan Harris. In

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Speaker 1: case you're not yet a listener, here's a deal on

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Speaker 1: ten Percent Happier. Dan interviews researchers, celebrities, and meditation teachers

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Speaker 1: about how to train your brain. And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of crossover with the things we talk about on the

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab, things like mindfulness, staying present, and well happiness.

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Speaker 1: Right now, they're doing a whole series on a subject

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Speaker 1: that's near and dear to my heart, how to have

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Speaker 1: a better work life balance. So Dan invited me on

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Speaker 1: the show to talk about some science back strategies for

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Speaker 1: heating the reset button at work. We tape the interview

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Speaker 1: live on Facebook a few weeks ago, and today we're

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Speaker 1: bringing that whole full episode to you without further ado.

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Speaker 1: Here it is very happy to be talking to doctor

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Speaker 1: Laurie Santos post of the excellent Happiness Lab podcast, which

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Speaker 1: I recommend to everybody. Also Yale Professor Laurie. Great to Sue,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for being on our livestream today. I

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Speaker 1: am always happy to be associated with you in any

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Speaker 1: possible way, soa same same. So we're talking about work

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Speaker 1: and all the glory and suffering therein, and I know

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Speaker 1: one of the subjects you wanted to talk about as

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Speaker 1: it pretends to work is time affluence. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Time affluence is this funny term that social scientists are

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Speaker 1: using these days, which is basically your subjective sense that

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Speaker 1: you have some free time. It's the sense that you're

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Speaker 1: wealthy in time. You know, if somebody calls you to

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Speaker 1: schedule something, it's not like, well, how about never, or

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Speaker 1: how about twenty twenty three or something like that. It

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Speaker 1: tends to be the opposite sensation of what we often experience,

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Speaker 1: which is what's known as time famine. We're literally starving

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Speaker 1: for time. And the evidence is cool is suggest that

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Speaker 1: time famine works a lot like hunger famine. You're kind

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Speaker 1: of triaging things. There's like evidence of stress on your body,

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Speaker 1: and like time famine has a huge hit on your

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Speaker 1: well being. In fact, some work by the Harvard psychologist

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Speaker 1: Ashley Willins suggest that if you self report being time famished,

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Speaker 1: that's as bad for your well being as if you

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Speaker 1: self report being unemployed. We know unemployment is a huge

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Speaker 1: hit on people's happiness, but just feeling like you don't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of time can do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Ashley was on my show. I think she's phenomenal, and

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Speaker 1: every time I talk about this issue, I can feel

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Speaker 1: my nervous system getting activated because this idea of time

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Speaker 1: starvation and it's opposite of time affluence. It's you know,

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Speaker 1: I do not feel affluent in terms of time, but

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Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons you made this recent

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Speaker 1: job change. I'm not sure you're comfortable sharing, but you

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Speaker 1: just made a big change for your own time affluence

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Speaker 1: is my understanding, right I did. I decided to leave

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Speaker 1: ABC News, where I had been for twenty one years,

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Speaker 1: and I loved ABC changed my life working there that

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Speaker 1: I got to go all over the planet and cover

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Speaker 1: amazing stories. And for eleven years I was the anchor

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Speaker 1: of weekend Good Morning America, which I really loved doing

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Speaker 1: that show, especially it was an am quite attached to

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Speaker 1: my co hosts. But something had to give because I

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Speaker 1: was working seven days a week, like really working seven

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Speaker 1: days a week, and so I would finish a long

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Speaker 1: week of working for ten percent happier hosting my podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I'm writing a book, which I try to do

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Speaker 1: five six hours a day on that I am helping

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Speaker 1: to run the company. And I would finish a long

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Speaker 1: week of that and then roll right into getting up

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Speaker 1: at three forty five on Saturday and Sunday mornings, which

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Speaker 1: you know, I just turned fifty. It's you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a bit like taking a flight to Asia every

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Speaker 1: week in terms of having to get up that early

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Speaker 1: and recover, and so something I had to give. And

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Speaker 1: I made a hard decision, which was to leave ABC,

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Speaker 1: which I wasn't really happy about, but I did it.

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Speaker 1: This is the thing that I think so many of

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Speaker 1: us faced, where we're often in positions where our time

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Speaker 1: is just so filled up that something has to give.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes if you don't make a hard decision, then

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Speaker 1: the thing that gives is something that's really bad for

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Speaker 1: your well being. Like the thing that gives is time

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Speaker 1: with your family, or the thing that gives is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, sleep, or your weekly exercise class or something.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes making an active decision to take time back, the

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Speaker 1: research shows, is like a real path towards happiness, and

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Speaker 1: it gets you off this bad trajectory that's only going

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Speaker 1: to get worse. You know, if this is where you

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Speaker 1: are when you're fifty. What is it going to look

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Speaker 1: like when you're fifty five, sixty and so on. It's

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Speaker 1: too early for me to know whether leaving ABC is

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Speaker 1: going to be the path to some big bump up

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Speaker 1: and happiness. I mean, I was already pretty happy. It's

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Speaker 1: such a huge change, and I just know that it

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Speaker 1: takes for me. It takes a long time to metabolize

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Speaker 1: something like that, you know, And it's only been a

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Speaker 1: few weeks as we're talking right now since I left

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Speaker 1: ABC News. And in terms of time affluence, though, all

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Speaker 1: it did was remove a very costly from a physiological

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Speaker 1: and psychological standpoint, habit or hobby on the weekends. So

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Speaker 1: now I have my weekends like a normal person. But

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Speaker 1: my Monday through Friday still feels as jam packed as ever.

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Speaker 1: When somebody calls me and says, hey, can I get

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Speaker 1: on your calendar? That makes me nervous every time that happens.

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Speaker 1: So what are your thoughts about how to deal with that.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of strategies you can use to kind

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Speaker 1: of feel better. I mean, one is really to reframe

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Speaker 1: the time saving things that you are doing. You know,

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Speaker 1: so many of us are often spending our money in

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Speaker 1: subtle ways to get back time. You know. I know

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Speaker 1: my husband and I we get curbside pickup or take

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Speaker 1: out every once in a while. And if you just

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Speaker 1: kind of get your takeout and eat it not mindfully

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Speaker 1: while you're checking your email, that's one thing. But if

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Speaker 1: you get your takeout and you put a time stamp

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Speaker 1: on it, I just get this burger and fries, that's

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Speaker 1: a regret and need to fry up and potatoes I

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Speaker 1: didn't need to chop and dishes I didn't need to do.

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Speaker 1: That was two hours and forty five minutes of my

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Speaker 1: time that I just saved. Just the act of framing

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Speaker 1: something that way, it's like, oh, it just kind of

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Speaker 1: takes that off your plate. And that's been a really

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Speaker 1: powerful one for me from a quick takeout, you know,

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Speaker 1: hiring somebody to do unwanted tasks. We often feel guilty

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Speaker 1: about these things, but it can be a way that

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Speaker 1: we're putting act time like into our schedules in a

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Speaker 1: way that can feel amazing. It sounds like you do

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Speaker 1: a thing that most of us do mindlessly, maybe even sheepishly.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to order take out tonight because I don't

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Speaker 1: feel like cooking, but you reframe it and deliberately intentionally

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Speaker 1: savor the time savings. Yeah, and I do that for

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Speaker 1: like different takeout the burger and fries. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: that saves me like two hours, but you know, like

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Speaker 1: a good pad tie, I was not going to do that, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I was not going to figure out where I get

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Speaker 1: pad tie noodles and all that stuff like that would

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Speaker 1: be really hard for me to do. And that's actually

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Speaker 1: a pretty big time savings. And we can do that

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Speaker 1: with other things. People pay for a cleaning service or

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Speaker 1: you know, hire the neighbor's kids to mow the lawn.

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Speaker 1: These things can feel privileged, but even if you're paying

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Speaker 1: ten bucks to the neighbor's kid to help out, like again,

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Speaker 1: it's a time savings that you get. The problem is

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Speaker 1: most of us have a little bit of discretionary income,

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Speaker 1: but we tend not to spend it to get time back.

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Speaker 1: But when we invest it to get time back, then

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Speaker 1: that discretionary income winds up going further. I interrupted you

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Speaker 1: before you were going to go onto another. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: the second tip, second ship. This second one has been

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Speaker 1: an enormous one for me, which is to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you're using the free time you do have. So

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Speaker 1: one of the many amazing things I learned in Ashley

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Speaker 1: Willen's book that still sticks with me is the fact

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Speaker 1: that if you look at people's time records, we actually

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Speaker 1: have more free time now than we did like fifteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty years ago. That feels shocking to me. It

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Speaker 1: feels like, how could we ever have been more time

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Speaker 1: famished than we are right now. The problem is that

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Speaker 1: the time budgets looked different. Fifteen years ago. We had

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Speaker 1: more big blocks of free time, So now we have

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Speaker 1: more actual objective amount of time, but it's broken up

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Speaker 1: into these tiny chunks five minutes before this zoom meeting

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Speaker 1: here and ten minutes when your kid falls asleep early.

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Speaker 1: This is what researchers called time confetti. These like little

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Speaker 1: pieces of time that are sort of floating in the ether.

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Speaker 1: And you have a lot of these, but they feel

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Speaker 1: so small that you never want to do anything good

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Speaker 1: with them. I can find myself like, oh, I got

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Speaker 1: an extra five minutes. I'll scroll through that feed that

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Speaker 1: I just looked through again, you know if I missed something,

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Speaker 1: or you know, I'll put a little extra time into

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Speaker 1: this email or something right, we do these things that

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Speaker 1: don't build us up, and then we feel like we

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Speaker 1: don't have any time. And so one great recommendation is

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Speaker 1: to make a sort of time confetti to do list,

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Speaker 1: but not a work to do list, like a kind

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Speaker 1: of well being you know, user time wisely to do list.

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Speaker 1: So on mine are five minutes here and there. That's

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Speaker 1: an extra three minutes of deep breaths I can do

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Speaker 1: these days. I've been trying to write in a gratitude

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Speaker 1: app more often, and I don't have a set time

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Speaker 1: to do it. But during my time affluent, it's like

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Speaker 1: my moments of time confetti. That's the moment to do.

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Speaker 1: It's like up five minutes before that meeting, we pull

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Speaker 1: out my phone and scribble a few things I'm feeling

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Speaker 1: grateful for. These little moments can add up if you

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Speaker 1: use them well. I love that. What about the notion

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Speaker 1: of a four day work week. What does the literature

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Speaker 1: say about whether we can actually get our work done

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Speaker 1: and whether this attractive idea does lead to a boost

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Speaker 1: in happiness. There's only a few studies coming out, but

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Speaker 1: the ones that there are are really suggesting that it

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Speaker 1: can be a powerful way to boost your well being

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Speaker 1: which like no surprise, that's like research that's published in

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Speaker 1: the journal, Like no kidding, right, you know. But what's

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Speaker 1: more amazing from these studies is it turns out that

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Speaker 1: people on the four day work week wind up being

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Speaker 1: more productive rather than less. They get more stuff done.

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Speaker 1: And we kind of all get this when you've had

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Speaker 1: the super long day, if you're just kind of dead

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Speaker 1: tired and feeling burned out, you do stuff at work,

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Speaker 1: but you're more kind of like churning. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: like kind of going through emails or like checking stuff.

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Speaker 1: You're doing stuff to tick off your list to feel

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Speaker 1: like you're being productive, but you're not doing like the

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Speaker 1: deep innovative work. You know, for me as academic, I'm

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Speaker 1: rarely doing the deep thinking work. I'm just kind of

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Speaker 1: getting stuff off my list. And when you chunk out

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Speaker 1: a whole day you got to get to the important stuff,

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Speaker 1: you wind up prioritizing it more so the thing that

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Speaker 1: drops off isn't the important creative work. It's often just

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Speaker 1: the churning. So like, who cares if you're not churning

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Speaker 1: as much, take that day off where you really have

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Speaker 1: some real leisure. This haunts me. This idea, though, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to be able to

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Speaker 1: articulate it. But I have been trying to get better

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Speaker 1: at not working when I'm exhausted. But I am haunted

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Speaker 1: by guilt when I do that, because I am thinking

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Speaker 1: about all the things I could be getting done even

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Speaker 1: on You know, I have one huge creative project right now,

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Speaker 1: which is the book that I'm writing, and I've been

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Speaker 1: working on it for three and a half years and

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Speaker 1: I've got another six months at least left to go.

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Speaker 1: I know on some level that if I take a

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Speaker 1: day off and do nothing, I will be more productive

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Speaker 1: when I return to the book a day Hence, but

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Speaker 1: I often struggle to allow myself to do that. Does

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Speaker 1: that make any sense to you what I'm saying, Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's like you're in my brain. Like this

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Speaker 1: happens to me all the time. And I think that

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Speaker 1: guilt is twofold. Right. One is we have this misconception like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I should be working. You can't be working. Your brain dead,

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Speaker 1: You're not functioning at the same level. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to get the work done that you believe you will.

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Speaker 1: But the second problem is that sometimes that guilt creeps

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Speaker 1: in because when we finally do take time off, we

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Speaker 1: don't let ourselves do anything that's really engaging, that's flow filled,

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Speaker 1: that's fun. Gotta have this crazy work week, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling totally burnt out, and then I don't have

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Speaker 1: the energy to do something interesting or fun with my friends.

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Speaker 1: I just like PLoP in front of Netflix, honestly, And

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'm so burned out that I can't even pick anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm so depleted that to just make a choice of

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Speaker 1: which movies, so I literally will spend an embarrassing hour

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Speaker 1: just watching the different you know, documentary scroll by, like

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Speaker 1: not that one, and then I feel gross and nasty afterwards.

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Speaker 1: And yes, it's true. When I'm doing that, the guilt

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Speaker 1: is setting in, which is like I just wasted a

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Speaker 1: half hour scrolling through little blocks on a screen, like

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Speaker 1: I could have been working on my book, or I

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Speaker 1: could have been working on this project. But if you

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Speaker 1: take a break earlier, when you can really engage and

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Speaker 1: do something that's real fun, that gives you flow, that

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Speaker 1: feels playful, often that involves other people so kind of

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Speaker 1: boost your social connection, these are ways to really take

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Speaker 1: a break, and those are the energizing things. So part

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Speaker 1: of the problem is that we don't take a break.

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Speaker 1: But part of the problem is that when we do

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Speaker 1: take a break, we don't take like a good break,

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Speaker 1: a nutritious break, something that's going to build us up.

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Speaker 1: We kind of just like PLoP around. First of all,

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Speaker 1: that Netflix moment you described, you were in my brain

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Speaker 1: for that, And to be fair, it's not just Netflix,

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Speaker 1: it's any Yeah, yeah, exactly, you're all implicated. We're not

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Speaker 1: hating on Netflix here, but yeah, but in terms of

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Speaker 1: having free time that we're using, well, i'll give you

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Speaker 1: an example of something that I came up with recently,

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Speaker 1: and I'll be interested to hear what you're doing to

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Speaker 1: use your free time. Well, when you actually do that,

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Speaker 1: as you know, as a parent, playing with little children

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Speaker 1: can be incredibly boring and frustrating, and then sometimes you

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Speaker 1: can hate yourself for being frustrated and bored with your children.

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Speaker 1: It could be a real toilet vortex. And I have

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Speaker 1: a six soon to be seven year old and I

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Speaker 1: love playing with him. It's it's better now that he's

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Speaker 1: six than it was when he was three, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's still pretty boring. And so what I did was

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Speaker 1: I got as a drum set. I have been playing

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Speaker 1: drums since I was ten, and he's wanted to play

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Speaker 1: drums for a while, and so we play together and

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Speaker 1: that is really really fun, and I also use it

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Speaker 1: in my downtime when he's not around. This is so

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Speaker 1: funny because so we just finished a podcast episode about

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Speaker 1: fun and about how I don't know how to have fun.

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Speaker 1: So I tagged in fun expert, the journalist Katherine Price,

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Speaker 1: who has this great new book called The Power of Fun,

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Speaker 1: and she recently actually has decided because you know, we

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Speaker 1: talked about what I like to do and what I

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Speaker 1: have fun with, and I like to do music, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not that great at music. So she has decided.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I have this long text thread from her

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Speaker 1: where she's like, you need to learn how to play

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Speaker 1: the drums, like you will really like the drums, like

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Speaker 1: you should starting to play the drums. So Dad, this

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Speaker 1: is inspiring me to listen to Catherine and actually learn

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Speaker 1: how to play the drums. But you're exactly on point.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what you're doing is you're finding an activity

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Speaker 1: that's giving you both some playful flow, like connected where

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Speaker 1: you're both playing together. And this is the definition of fun, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, Katherine talks about this idea that fun is playful,

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Speaker 1: connected flow, and you're kind of finding all the parts

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Speaker 1: of it in that drone practice with your son. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons that kid play feels kind

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Speaker 1: of yucky is that it's sort of boring for adults.

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Speaker 1: It's not really challenging for the adults. But there are

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Speaker 1: lots of things you can do with your kids that

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Speaker 1: really are challenging for you too. One of the other

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Speaker 1: folks we interviewed for our fun episode is the journalist

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Speaker 1: Tom Vanderbilt, who wrote this book called Beginners, and he

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Speaker 1: had this harrowing moment with his own i think nine

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Speaker 1: year old at the time, where he was taking her

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Speaker 1: to like chess practice and drum practice and swimming lessons

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Speaker 1: and all these things, and she was like learning and

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Speaker 1: having a good time, and he'd sit there while she

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Speaker 1: was doing that and like futs around on some feed

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Speaker 1: or check his email, feeling bored, and he was like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, hang on, I could be doing that

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Speaker 1: fun thing too, Like I could be learning in the

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Speaker 1: same way that she's learning, and in fact, we could

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Speaker 1: do it together and that would be like a huge

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Speaker 1: boost because now you know, we're doing something together. We're

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Speaker 1: having like parent kid bonding time, and I'm learning something

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Speaker 1: and having fun. And he talks about how you know,

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Speaker 1: this has been amazing for him, both in terms of

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Speaker 1: changing his identity, especially kind of giving him a sense

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Speaker 1: of like he's learning something new. He's not just his job, right,

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Speaker 1: so when the job's feeling stressful and is burning him out,

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Speaker 1: he can feel like, Wamacho's player now, or I'm taking

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Speaker 1: surfing lessons or something fun. But also it's just a

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Speaker 1: way to like kind of connect with his kids and

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Speaker 1: sort of show up and not be this bad example

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Speaker 1: where your leisure is an adult looks really boring and

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Speaker 1: miserable to the kids. Right, You're showing them adults can

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Speaker 1: learn and have fun too. I love that. I love

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Speaker 1: that starting to take my son to drum lessons, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make the lou the amazing drum teacher,

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Speaker 1: teach me a few things. You'll get to hear more

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Speaker 1: of my conversation with Dan Harris on his podcast Ten

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Speaker 1: Percent Happier After the break, The Happiness Lab will be

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Speaker 1: right back. Okay, so let's let's keep going with some

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Speaker 1: of the tips that you have for how to make

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Speaker 1: work suck less than it does so often for so

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Speaker 1: many of us, you have this notion of job crafting.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? So job crafting is a term

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Speaker 1: that my colleague year at the Yell School of Management,

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Speaker 1: Amy Resineski, came up with. And this is the idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, our jobs have like on paper what

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to do, you know, like the list of

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Speaker 1: tasks that we're supposed to get done or so we

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Speaker 1: don't get fired. But within that list of tasks, for

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Speaker 1: pretty much all of us, there's a lot of flexibility

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Speaker 1: around the edges of what we kind of emphasize of

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Speaker 1: how we frame it in terms of what we are

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Speaker 1: actually doing in the day to day. And job crafting

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Speaker 1: is the act of building in more stuff that you

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Speaker 1: find valuable and fun. She suggests, starting with the kinds

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Speaker 1: of virtues that you care about. Often researchers call these

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Speaker 1: signature strengths. So we all have these things that'll kind

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Speaker 1: of get us a going. Maybe you love to learn,

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Speaker 1: or maybe you love to be social, or maybe you

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Speaker 1: like things that require bravery or it's kind of a challenge,

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Speaker 1: or you take on some risk. Maybe you like doing

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Speaker 1: things that are creative where you're building stuff with your

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Speaker 1: hands or something. We all have these kind of things,

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Speaker 1: and her ideas with job crafting, you kind of put

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Speaker 1: more of that in your job. It's not necessarily in

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Speaker 1: your job description, but you kind of build in it

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Speaker 1: any way. Now when people sometimes hear about job crafting,

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Speaker 1: they think, well, that might work for some cool jobs

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Speaker 1: like ours, where we're podcasters and we could be really creative,

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Speaker 1: But what about really boring jobs? And that's where Amy's

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Speaker 1: work is so awesome. She does these lovely studies where

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Speaker 1: she studies folks who have the job that you might

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Speaker 1: not think of as the most creative or flexible job.

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Speaker 1: She studies hospital janitorial staff members. You know, so these

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Speaker 1: are people who are literally cleaning up vomit and cancer

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Speaker 1: ward not a flexible position, but she finds that a

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Speaker 1: decent number of them say that their job is a calling,

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Speaker 1: that they wouldn't change it for anything in the world,

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Speaker 1: and when she looks at what they do, they're the

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Speaker 1: ones who are using a lot of these virtues, these

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Speaker 1: signature strengths. She tells us one story and talked about

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Speaker 1: it on my podcast, where she was interviewing one of

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Speaker 1: these janitorial staff members who said that his job he

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Speaker 1: was a person who cleaned up vomit in a chemo

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Speaker 1: therapy award, And he said that his job wasn't to

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Speaker 1: clean him up people being sick. His job was to

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Speaker 1: cheer people up, you know, after they were feeling really crappy.

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Speaker 1: Imagine the situation like you're in chemo, you cancer, you

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Speaker 1: get sick all over the floor. This sucks, you feel awful,

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Speaker 1: This is a low point in your life. And this

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Speaker 1: staff member would come in and he saw his job

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Speaker 1: as to make you laugh. His standard joke was, you

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Speaker 1: keep vomiting because that's how I get my paycheck. Like,

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Speaker 1: I'll have to do overtime if you vomit extra. So

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Speaker 1: now the patient is laughing. He's laughing, he feels like

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Speaker 1: he's done something genuinely meaningful and good. He's really helps someone.

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Speaker 1: And Amy's claim is if ganitorial staff members can do

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Speaker 1: this in their work and still get their job done,

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Speaker 1: all of us can do this in our own way.

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Speaker 1: And this is something I talk with my students about.

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Speaker 1: You know, so many of my students are stuck in

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Speaker 1: like majors that they're kind of annoyed by y're getting

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Speaker 1: through premed coursework, and it's like, well, how can you

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Speaker 1: build in the fun parts? There are things that you

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Speaker 1: find fun. Maybe you want to just be more social

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Speaker 1: and you come up with a quiz bowl to like

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Speaker 1: do your problem sets, or maybe you want you have

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Speaker 1: like a love of learnings on the edges. When you

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Speaker 1: find something cool, you watch extra five minute YouTube video

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Speaker 1: about it. If you take charge of this process that

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Speaker 1: you're stuck in, it can both feel like you have

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Speaker 1: some control, but then you get to exercise these things

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Speaker 1: that you love about life anyway that are going to

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Speaker 1: build you up. Here from my mind is going with this.

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Speaker 1: So you just say you're at a company, and you

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Speaker 1: are a younger person in a company, and you have

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Speaker 1: a somewhat humdrum job, but there are ways that you

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Speaker 1: could see yourself advancing that would be interesting within that company.

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Speaker 1: But we all know that maybe we don't know, but

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Speaker 1: we should know that the modern workplace was created by

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Speaker 1: white men for white men. And you don't feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: advocating for yourself to do this kind of job crafting

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Speaker 1: because nothing in your history tells you it will go. Well,

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Speaker 1: what do you say to people like that? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, when you look at Amy's work,

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Speaker 1: what you find is often the people who are doing

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Speaker 1: the job crafting, we're doing it in ways that their

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Speaker 1: managers didn't necessarily even know about you. So there's job

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Speaker 1: crafting in a way where you're like, if I could

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Speaker 1: really harness my strengths, and that's my move to get

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Speaker 1: promotions and stuff like that. That's kind of one move.

429
00:19:42,236 --> 00:19:44,436
Speaker 1: But another move is you don't care about promotions or

430
00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:46,156
Speaker 1: like getting a raise. Like what you want is just

431
00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:48,596
Speaker 1: to like not hate your work. You want to not

432
00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:51,556
Speaker 1: be miserable every Monday morning when you walk in. And

433
00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:53,476
Speaker 1: that's where these job crafting things I think can be

434
00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:55,956
Speaker 1: the most powerful. Nobody cares if you see, your job

435
00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:58,836
Speaker 1: is making sure you chat with folks at the office cooler,

436
00:19:59,116 --> 00:20:01,036
Speaker 1: or like take an extra step to like, you know,

437
00:20:01,156 --> 00:20:04,396
Speaker 1: have a five minute conversation with the administrative assistant in

438
00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:06,316
Speaker 1: your office. But you're going to do a little bit

439
00:20:06,396 --> 00:20:08,636
Speaker 1: more creative work on the edges or learn something on

440
00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:11,596
Speaker 1: the side. That's not stuff to necessarily be moving up.

441
00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:14,956
Speaker 1: It's just making your life more fun while you're spending

442
00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:17,156
Speaker 1: literally a third of your life at your job. You know,

443
00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:19,276
Speaker 1: eight hours a day, we get hopefully eight hours of

444
00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:21,876
Speaker 1: sleeping if you're following the well being tips and sleeping enough.

445
00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:24,356
Speaker 1: But then there's another eight hours where you're like at

446
00:20:24,436 --> 00:20:26,476
Speaker 1: your job, if not more than that. So finding ways

447
00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:28,436
Speaker 1: to love it can be really powerful, even if it's

448
00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:32,236
Speaker 1: not necessarily for career advancement. I'm convinced. Let's talk about

449
00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,276
Speaker 1: another way, And I think this is particularly relevant in

450
00:20:35,356 --> 00:20:39,276
Speaker 1: a pandemic, where the separation between work and the rest

451
00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:42,476
Speaker 1: of your life could get very blurry. It was relevant

452
00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,556
Speaker 1: even before the pandemic because we all have our office

453
00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:48,076
Speaker 1: in our pocket in the form of a phone, But

454
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:51,316
Speaker 1: now the physical office is the dining room for many

455
00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:55,196
Speaker 1: of us. Still, how do we not take the stress

456
00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:59,076
Speaker 1: of the day into our interactions with everybody else? Yeah,

457
00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:01,436
Speaker 1: this is so much more important now, especially for folks

458
00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:03,836
Speaker 1: who are still working at home. Right because, for better

459
00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:06,796
Speaker 1: or for worse, there was often a natural separation between

460
00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:09,476
Speaker 1: the work day and walking home. Yeah, you know, you

461
00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:11,316
Speaker 1: have your office in your pocket, but there was a

462
00:21:11,436 --> 00:21:13,876
Speaker 1: moment that you got into your car and like there

463
00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:16,476
Speaker 1: was a separation of physical separation between where you thought

464
00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:18,836
Speaker 1: about work and where you thought about home. Or maybe

465
00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:20,916
Speaker 1: you hopped on the subway and just kind of left.

466
00:21:21,396 --> 00:21:23,796
Speaker 1: These things are subtle, but our brain picks up on

467
00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:26,516
Speaker 1: them because their habits. They're little rituals that we do

468
00:21:26,636 --> 00:21:29,436
Speaker 1: all the time. That quickly, in March of twenty twenty,

469
00:21:29,436 --> 00:21:31,396
Speaker 1: a lot of these things kind of went away, And

470
00:21:31,516 --> 00:21:34,436
Speaker 1: so we need some way to tell our brain, hey,

471
00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:36,956
Speaker 1: we're shutting things off right now, we're moving away. This

472
00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:40,236
Speaker 1: was the commute home basically, And so we can figure

473
00:21:40,236 --> 00:21:42,436
Speaker 1: out stupid ways to do that. Like the beauty of rituals,

474
00:21:42,476 --> 00:21:43,916
Speaker 1: our brain doesn't really care what it is. You just

475
00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:46,236
Speaker 1: have to give it something over and over again. And

476
00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:48,476
Speaker 1: so I have colleagues who, for example, at the end

477
00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:50,796
Speaker 1: of their work day shut the laptop and throw like

478
00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,036
Speaker 1: a towel over it, just to be like the towels

479
00:21:53,076 --> 00:21:55,636
Speaker 1: over it the day is over. I had another colleague

480
00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:57,996
Speaker 1: kind of tiny New York apartment type thing where they

481
00:21:58,036 --> 00:21:59,996
Speaker 1: sat at the kitchen table to work and then they

482
00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:02,556
Speaker 1: literally flipped the laptop around and sat on the other

483
00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:05,636
Speaker 1: side of the kitchen table like and that was like leisure, right,

484
00:22:05,996 --> 00:22:08,596
Speaker 1: And it sounds so dumb, but like our brain prays

485
00:22:08,596 --> 00:22:12,236
Speaker 1: attention to these little physical cues. So giving your brain

486
00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:14,916
Speaker 1: some can just sort of have a little separation. I

487
00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:17,036
Speaker 1: mean we all learned this as kids with mister Rogers.

488
00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:19,396
Speaker 1: Where he cuts home, he takes the shoes off, he

489
00:22:19,476 --> 00:22:22,676
Speaker 1: puts the slippers on. Mister Rogers was deeply wise about

490
00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:24,916
Speaker 1: well being, and this is just another domain in which

491
00:22:24,956 --> 00:22:27,636
Speaker 1: he was. So what's your slipper going to be? How

492
00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:30,036
Speaker 1: do you do just some act that you always shut

493
00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:32,676
Speaker 1: off for work? And if your kids happen to still

494
00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:35,556
Speaker 1: be studying from home, I think this can be even

495
00:22:35,676 --> 00:22:38,476
Speaker 1: more powerful for them. Our brains don't have a separation,

496
00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:41,436
Speaker 1: but their brains are still growing. They're even more affected

497
00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:44,396
Speaker 1: by this kind of clutter in their routine. So giving

498
00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:46,156
Speaker 1: them some cues that they can use to be like,

499
00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:47,876
Speaker 1: all right, we're shutting down for the day can be

500
00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:51,636
Speaker 1: super powerful. One thing that we instituted really during the

501
00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:54,076
Speaker 1: pandemic that we hadn't done before that has been a

502
00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:56,836
Speaker 1: great dividing line between the work day and the rest

503
00:22:56,876 --> 00:22:59,316
Speaker 1: of the day is family dinner, which we had not

504
00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:03,436
Speaker 1: been doing in a ritual way until we're all confined

505
00:23:03,476 --> 00:23:06,076
Speaker 1: to this tight space together five forty five six o'clock,

506
00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:10,636
Speaker 1: we do dinner together and that has been really helpful. Yeah,

507
00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:13,716
Speaker 1: I mean, we forget that there haven't been these long standing,

508
00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:17,076
Speaker 1: often quite ancient traditions that we in the modern world

509
00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:19,276
Speaker 1: kind of just like a drop off, like oh, family dinner,

510
00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:21,276
Speaker 1: so silly, or like, oh, you know, putting the slippers

511
00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:23,876
Speaker 1: on when you get home, so silly. Right, But these

512
00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:28,476
Speaker 1: things are doing psychological work, powerful psychological work to get

513
00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:31,036
Speaker 1: our mind kind of ready for next sorts of steps, right,

514
00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:33,196
Speaker 1: and so anything we can do to build that in

515
00:23:33,396 --> 00:23:36,076
Speaker 1: for the workday can be incredibly powerful. I mean, another

516
00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:38,196
Speaker 1: one I know you've talked about is that commute home

517
00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:41,156
Speaker 1: can be a nice time to do a couple deep breaths,

518
00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,036
Speaker 1: or maybe the first thing you do when you walk

519
00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:45,756
Speaker 1: in before you're bringing your whole work emotionally home to

520
00:23:45,836 --> 00:23:49,236
Speaker 1: deal with your family is do a quick ten minute meditation, right, Like,

521
00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:51,636
Speaker 1: these are moments where we can do all kinds of

522
00:23:51,716 --> 00:23:54,516
Speaker 1: things to separate between the workday and the rest of

523
00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:56,996
Speaker 1: our lives. One of the most painful parts of work

524
00:23:57,476 --> 00:24:00,516
Speaker 1: for me over the last couple of decades, in particular

525
00:24:00,676 --> 00:24:05,876
Speaker 1: and television news, has been comparing myself to other people

526
00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:08,956
Speaker 1: and wondering why they're getting this job and I'm not

527
00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:12,876
Speaker 1: getting it, etc. Etc. Do you have thoughts on this

528
00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,396
Speaker 1: kind of social comparison and how we can surfeit rather

529
00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:19,756
Speaker 1: than be drowned by it. We're in it. Well. One

530
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:22,596
Speaker 1: is recognizing that it's happening, you know, like all things

531
00:24:22,676 --> 00:24:25,996
Speaker 1: I think in this space of being mindful enough to notice. Oh,

532
00:24:26,116 --> 00:24:28,396
Speaker 1: the reason I feel crappy about my salary today is

533
00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:31,196
Speaker 1: I just heard about Joe's rays in the office. The

534
00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:33,556
Speaker 1: reason I feel bad about my performance is I just

535
00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:35,996
Speaker 1: heard someone else get an accolade. These are the things

536
00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:38,036
Speaker 1: that if we just start noticing them, we can start

537
00:24:38,116 --> 00:24:40,756
Speaker 1: acting on them. The other thing is you start noticing

538
00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:43,516
Speaker 1: these things is to recognize that our brains really suck

539
00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,156
Speaker 1: when it comes to social comparison. There can be a

540
00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,796
Speaker 1: billion people who are doing worse than us, and our

541
00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:52,076
Speaker 1: brain locks onto the one person in our career or

542
00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:54,116
Speaker 1: in our life who seems to be doing as good,

543
00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:57,116
Speaker 1: if not better, and holds onto that and directs all

544
00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:00,276
Speaker 1: of our attentional resources at that. My favorite example of

545
00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:01,996
Speaker 1: this is not in the workplace, although I guess it's

546
00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,516
Speaker 1: in the workplace for some folks whose job is to

547
00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:06,836
Speaker 1: be an Olympian. It was this famous study that looked

548
00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:10,396
Speaker 1: at olympians on the stand and what emotion they were experiencing.

549
00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:13,196
Speaker 1: So you win a gold medal, of what emotions are

550
00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,316
Speaker 1: experiencing generally pretty positive, you're joyous, you're happy, and so on.

551
00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,516
Speaker 1: You win a silver medal, What emotions are you experiencing?

552
00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:21,836
Speaker 1: You think, maybe not as good as gold, but pretty good.

553
00:25:21,876 --> 00:25:24,036
Speaker 1: You're like taking home your second best on the planet.

554
00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:27,956
Speaker 1: Turns out no, When scientists analyze the facial expressions of

555
00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:30,836
Speaker 1: silver medalists, what they find is that their emotions are

556
00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:35,516
Speaker 1: showing things more like contempt, deep sadness, anger. Run the

557
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:38,116
Speaker 1: list of negative emotions and you see that expressed in

558
00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:41,396
Speaker 1: their face. And what's the problem. There's a social comparison.

559
00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:43,556
Speaker 1: They're not looking at the billions of people who were

560
00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:45,636
Speaker 1: not good enough to make it to the Olympics or

561
00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:48,156
Speaker 1: get on the stand. They're looking at the one person

562
00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,396
Speaker 1: who beat them. But the remedy for that comes with

563
00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:53,996
Speaker 1: the other person who's standing on the stand, who's the

564
00:25:54,076 --> 00:25:56,516
Speaker 1: bronze medalist. So you might think if the silver medalist

565
00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:59,036
Speaker 1: is feeling contempt and disgust and all these things, than

566
00:25:59,036 --> 00:26:01,796
Speaker 1: the bronze medalist is even more in the dumps. But

567
00:26:01,916 --> 00:26:04,996
Speaker 1: it turns out that if you analyze bronze medalist facial expressions,

568
00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:08,836
Speaker 1: they're psyched. In some cases, they're showing expressions of a

569
00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:12,316
Speaker 1: late that are stronger than the Gold Medalist. And again

570
00:26:12,556 --> 00:26:15,356
Speaker 1: here's the you know, social comparison at work. Bronze medalist

571
00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:18,516
Speaker 1: isn't comparing themselves against the gold Medalist. They were seconds away,

572
00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:20,956
Speaker 1: you know, multiple people were in between them, right, but

573
00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:23,716
Speaker 1: they're thinking, oh, man, if I was just two seconds slower,

574
00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,076
Speaker 1: like point two seconds slower, i'd be going home empty

575
00:26:26,156 --> 00:26:28,716
Speaker 1: handed by the skin of my teeth. I am up

576
00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:31,476
Speaker 1: here walking away with the metal. And they're stoked. And

577
00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 1: the Bronze Medalist is helpful because it makes us realize

578
00:26:35,036 --> 00:26:37,716
Speaker 1: that with a little bit of cognitive work, we can

579
00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:40,556
Speaker 1: kind of reframe however we're doing. We can kind of

580
00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:43,316
Speaker 1: look to the fact that, hey, we've actually done pretty

581
00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 1: well no matter where we are. We might not have

582
00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:48,476
Speaker 1: billions of people below us, but there's some folks below us.

583
00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:50,316
Speaker 1: The other thing is that you can tend to not

584
00:26:50,476 --> 00:26:52,916
Speaker 1: just it the other people who are below you, but

585
00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:56,716
Speaker 1: at yourself kind of be competing against yourself, and that

586
00:26:56,916 --> 00:26:58,916
Speaker 1: can be a powerful way to kind of feel good

587
00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:02,036
Speaker 1: because hopefully you're going in a positive direction, and if

588
00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:04,396
Speaker 1: you're not a means a time for exercising a different

589
00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:05,996
Speaker 1: thing that I think can make work better, which is

590
00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:08,756
Speaker 1: a little self compassion. But you know, competing with yourself

591
00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:11,916
Speaker 1: and having that competition stick to wherever you were before

592
00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,836
Speaker 1: can be a powerful way to feel a little bit

593
00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:17,036
Speaker 1: better too. Have you heard of a kind of meditation

594
00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:20,276
Speaker 1: practice called moodita? No, I don't know this one, t

595
00:27:20,436 --> 00:27:24,156
Speaker 1: set okay, I'm going to tell the great doctor Laurie

596
00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,316
Speaker 1: Santo something she doesn't know. We can do it now, probably, yeah,

597
00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:29,116
Speaker 1: So I will teach how to do it. This is

598
00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:37,076
Speaker 1: an ancient Buddhist meditation practice. Moodita translates roughly to sympathetic joy.

599
00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:40,516
Speaker 1: It's kind of the opposite of schadenfreud. You're taking pleasure

600
00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:43,396
Speaker 1: and the success of somebody else. Is very hard skill

601
00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:46,396
Speaker 1: to build, and I think it's not coincidence that the

602
00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:51,036
Speaker 1: Buddha honed in on building this skill, because it really

603
00:27:51,116 --> 00:27:53,876
Speaker 1: can shave down on one of the primary sources of

604
00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:57,956
Speaker 1: our unhappiness as members of Homo sapiens, which is falling

605
00:27:57,996 --> 00:28:02,036
Speaker 1: into what meditators often call comparing mind this mode that

606
00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:05,676
Speaker 1: you've just described, or you really can't feel gratitude or

607
00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:10,236
Speaker 1: take pleasure in anything if you're just constantly trying to

608
00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:13,676
Speaker 1: keep up with your brother in law, so Moudita practice.

609
00:28:13,756 --> 00:28:16,836
Speaker 1: It's going to sound to some, especially the skeptics, and

610
00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:19,636
Speaker 1: it certainly sounded to me a little hokey at the

611
00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:22,716
Speaker 1: beginning of Some people have no problem with what some

612
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:25,076
Speaker 1: of us will find hokey, but just a name that

613
00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:27,596
Speaker 1: it's it's a bit forced at the very least. So

614
00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:29,916
Speaker 1: you can just kind of close your eyes and picture

615
00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:35,156
Speaker 1: somebody who's doing really well. For the listeners, you can't

616
00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:38,556
Speaker 1: see that Laurie has her eyes closed out, closed mind too,

617
00:28:39,316 --> 00:28:41,996
Speaker 1: So just pick somebody. Don't start with you know, your

618
00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:45,876
Speaker 1: arch nemesis, who just got some raise that is really

619
00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 1: burning for you. You can start with somebody really easy.

620
00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:53,396
Speaker 1: Sometimes I pick my kid, be aforementioned six year old,

621
00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:57,476
Speaker 1: and our kitten. They play really nicely together and they're

622
00:28:57,516 --> 00:28:59,876
Speaker 1: having a great time. And so just pick Alexander and

623
00:29:00,156 --> 00:29:04,796
Speaker 1: Ozymandias the kitten and imagine them scampering around together. As Laura,

624
00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,436
Speaker 1: you might pick somebody's easy for you and just imagine that,

625
00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:13,836
Speaker 1: and then you can repeat these phrases, may your happiness increase.

626
00:29:14,356 --> 00:29:16,356
Speaker 1: You can start maybe with just may you be happy,

627
00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:20,356
Speaker 1: and then move to May your happiness grow increase, repeating

628
00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:23,916
Speaker 1: these kinds of phrases, and then you might move to

629
00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:26,476
Speaker 1: somebody who's a little bit more challenging. Somebody you like

630
00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:29,676
Speaker 1: at the office or in your personal life, who's had

631
00:29:29,756 --> 00:29:33,356
Speaker 1: something good happened to them, may be happy. May this

632
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:38,436
Speaker 1: happiness you're experiencing grow and get more intense. Anyway, you

633
00:29:38,516 --> 00:29:40,436
Speaker 1: get the picture. We don't have to do it for

634
00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:43,836
Speaker 1: too long, and you can keep moving to more and

635
00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:46,316
Speaker 1: more challenging people. Maybe not the first time you do it,

636
00:29:46,676 --> 00:29:50,516
Speaker 1: but over time you can. And the great share in

637
00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:54,196
Speaker 1: Salzburg one of the first people who she's a meditation teacher,

638
00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:55,996
Speaker 1: one of the first people who taught me how to

639
00:29:56,076 --> 00:29:58,156
Speaker 1: do this. She talks about this fallacy that many of

640
00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:01,796
Speaker 1: us have, which is that when something good happens to somebody,

641
00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:06,356
Speaker 1: we feel like whatever accolade or raise they have just

642
00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:08,996
Speaker 1: had come their way, that it was actually heading to

643
00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:13,436
Speaker 1: us and they reached out and intercepted the pass. And

644
00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:17,116
Speaker 1: that's actually not usually the case. And even when it

645
00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:19,956
Speaker 1: is the case, what do you want to do carry

646
00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:22,796
Speaker 1: around this resentment or would you like to be able

647
00:30:22,916 --> 00:30:26,916
Speaker 1: to see the humanity and your rivals and be happy

648
00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:29,076
Speaker 1: for them. Isn't that going to free up more bandwidth

649
00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:33,316
Speaker 1: for you to pursue what you want next without carrying

650
00:30:33,316 --> 00:30:36,116
Speaker 1: around the boulder of resentment? So does any does that

651
00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:38,156
Speaker 1: make sense to you totally? I mean, you know, it

652
00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:41,036
Speaker 1: fits with so much that we know about other practices

653
00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:43,596
Speaker 1: that are really similar, like loving kindness, meditation right where

654
00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:46,076
Speaker 1: you can kind of build up your compassion over time.

655
00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:48,396
Speaker 1: And my guess I'd love to do the studies on this.

656
00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,636
Speaker 1: Actually I'm doing a related project with the Stanford neuroscientist

657
00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:54,796
Speaker 1: Jamil Zaki on what we call a zero sum happiness.

658
00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:56,716
Speaker 1: There's this idea I think that a lot of us

659
00:30:56,716 --> 00:30:59,156
Speaker 1: are carrying around that you know, there's like a happiness

660
00:30:59,276 --> 00:31:01,716
Speaker 1: pot somewhere in the universe, and you if good things

661
00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:03,796
Speaker 1: happen to one person and there's like less in the

662
00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:06,796
Speaker 1: pot potentially for me. That's just empirically that is not

663
00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:09,556
Speaker 1: how well being works. If anything, you know, doing for

664
00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:12,436
Speaker 1: others winds up increasing the sum, right, you know, when

665
00:31:12,476 --> 00:31:14,556
Speaker 1: you do nice things for others, you donate money to

666
00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:17,156
Speaker 1: someone else, for example, you get the happiness bump from

667
00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:18,996
Speaker 1: that at the same time they do pretty much we

668
00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:21,316
Speaker 1: know how well being and probably even success and good

669
00:31:21,356 --> 00:31:23,316
Speaker 1: things work in the world. Is like, this is not

670
00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:25,476
Speaker 1: zero sum. We kind of all add it up together.

671
00:31:25,756 --> 00:31:28,316
Speaker 1: I imagine this meditation practice does a really good job

672
00:31:28,396 --> 00:31:31,356
Speaker 1: at overcoming that misconception. It's like an intervention we can

673
00:31:31,396 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 1: do to be like, no, no, no, there's not some

674
00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:35,756
Speaker 1: tiny sum that we're sort of splitting up. We all

675
00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:39,116
Speaker 1: can do a little bit better. Yes, exactly. Just two

676
00:31:39,156 --> 00:31:41,156
Speaker 1: things to say about that. I love how many of

677
00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:44,036
Speaker 1: these names you're invoking, Jamie, Zachie, Catherine Price. These are

678
00:31:44,036 --> 00:31:46,556
Speaker 1: people who come on both of our shows, and it's

679
00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:49,516
Speaker 1: interesting to hear you can listen to them being interviewed

680
00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:51,476
Speaker 1: in two different places because you come at it from

681
00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:53,796
Speaker 1: a perspective of actually knowing something. I come at it

682
00:31:53,876 --> 00:31:57,276
Speaker 1: as the amateur happiness expert who's a journalist and is

683
00:31:57,396 --> 00:32:00,476
Speaker 1: very very very very interested in training the mind through meditation.

684
00:32:00,956 --> 00:32:04,596
Speaker 1: So often I think the results are complimentary. So that's

685
00:32:04,636 --> 00:32:06,276
Speaker 1: just one thing that came to mind. And then just

686
00:32:06,396 --> 00:32:11,476
Speaker 1: to clarify, moodita practice and loving kindness practice are related.

687
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:14,716
Speaker 1: There are In Buddhism, there are what are known as

688
00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:19,356
Speaker 1: the four Brahma Viharas or divine abodes, hard to reach

689
00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:23,876
Speaker 1: states that you can train through meditation loving kindness practice. Actually,

690
00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:26,716
Speaker 1: you can translate loving kindness into friendliness. That can sound

691
00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:31,996
Speaker 1: a little less hokey to the skeptics. Loving kindness phrases

692
00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:33,716
Speaker 1: are like may you be happy, may you be safe,

693
00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:35,636
Speaker 1: may you be healthy, may you live with ease. So

694
00:32:35,796 --> 00:32:37,956
Speaker 1: that's of practice very similar to what we just did

695
00:32:38,036 --> 00:32:40,516
Speaker 1: with meditai, where you close your eyes and picture usually

696
00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:42,756
Speaker 1: start with somebody easy, and then you can move to yourself,

697
00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:45,836
Speaker 1: and then you can move to a benefactor, and then

698
00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:49,636
Speaker 1: a neutral person, a difficult person, and then everybody. You

699
00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:53,156
Speaker 1: can run through that same cycle with all of the

700
00:32:53,276 --> 00:32:57,276
Speaker 1: Brahma Bharas. So there's loving kindness, there's moodita or sympathetic joy,

701
00:32:57,396 --> 00:33:01,156
Speaker 1: there's compassion, where you're sending phrases to people who are suffering,

702
00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:03,676
Speaker 1: May you be free from suffering, may be free from pain.

703
00:33:04,116 --> 00:33:07,636
Speaker 1: And then there is equanimity, where you're just training in

704
00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:10,196
Speaker 1: order to reach these states, in order to keep them going,

705
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:14,436
Speaker 1: you need to have some evenness of mind. Especially with compassion,

706
00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:16,716
Speaker 1: you know where you're you're getting close to suffering, and

707
00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:20,036
Speaker 1: so we train up the ability to just be steady

708
00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 1: in the face of whatever comes up in our minds.

709
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:26,116
Speaker 1: So these practices, these brahma a horror practices. I don't

710
00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:28,796
Speaker 1: have all the science at hand, but my understanding is

711
00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of science to suggest that these

712
00:33:30,716 --> 00:33:35,276
Speaker 1: can have physiological, psychological, and even behavioral impacts. And so

713
00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 1: it's to me the idea that if you aggregate all

714
00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:41,796
Speaker 1: of these skills under one egis, that egis could be love.

715
00:33:42,276 --> 00:33:46,036
Speaker 1: Love is not an unalterable factory setting. It is a

716
00:33:46,196 --> 00:33:50,596
Speaker 1: trainable skill that is incredibly good news. Yeah, And with

717
00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:53,836
Speaker 1: love and with these kind of trainable skills, you kind

718
00:33:53,876 --> 00:33:57,436
Speaker 1: of take out of your emotional ether, the bad stuff.

719
00:33:57,596 --> 00:33:59,436
Speaker 1: The power of mudita is it takes it. It's not

720
00:33:59,556 --> 00:34:02,276
Speaker 1: just that you feel good for someone else's success, is

721
00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:06,716
Speaker 1: that it takes away this horrible burden pain, you know, sadness, anger,

722
00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:09,956
Speaker 1: frustration that you're walking around with that you don't need to.

723
00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:12,836
Speaker 1: And so getting rid of some of these negative emotions

724
00:34:12,916 --> 00:34:15,316
Speaker 1: can be thinking a really important part of this practice

725
00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:17,796
Speaker 1: because you don't have to walk around with this. We

726
00:34:17,876 --> 00:34:20,356
Speaker 1: often on my podcast talk about, you know, and another

727
00:34:20,596 --> 00:34:22,716
Speaker 1: parable that comes from the Buddhist tradition, this idea of

728
00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:24,476
Speaker 1: the second arrow. You know, it's one thing to not

729
00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:27,316
Speaker 1: get the promotion but it's another to be stabbing yourself

730
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:29,676
Speaker 1: with this second arrow, pissed off the whole time that

731
00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:31,356
Speaker 1: you didn't get it. And if you can get rid

732
00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:33,916
Speaker 1: of that part of your emotional labor, that can be

733
00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:38,556
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful. You'll get to hear more of my conversation

734
00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 1: with Dan Harris on his podcast ten Percent Happier after

735
00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:49,116
Speaker 1: the break, The Happiness Lab will be right back. You

736
00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:53,396
Speaker 1: invoked emotions. What are your thoughts on how we handle

737
00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:55,556
Speaker 1: emotions at work? Because I think a lot of us

738
00:34:55,556 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 1: are conditioned again because, as I said before, the modern

739
00:34:59,196 --> 00:35:02,876
Speaker 1: workplace was created by white men for white men, and

740
00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:05,516
Speaker 1: so white men and I can speak with some authority

741
00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:09,156
Speaker 1: about white men being one, we were not famously in

742
00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:11,756
Speaker 1: touch with our emotions. So we didn't design a workplace

743
00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:15,516
Speaker 1: that was really, you know, conducive to the healthy metabolizing

744
00:35:15,556 --> 00:35:18,596
Speaker 1: of emotions. So what are your thoughts about how we

745
00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:22,276
Speaker 1: can handle our emotions in the workplace? Yeah, I mean,

746
00:35:22,356 --> 00:35:25,156
Speaker 1: I think because of the structure of modern workplaces and

747
00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:27,676
Speaker 1: the you know, the sense that they're not necessarily built

748
00:35:27,716 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 1: to be so inclusive, our instinct is to just shut

749
00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:33,636
Speaker 1: them off, not shut them off in a long equanimity

750
00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:35,876
Speaker 1: practice where you come to terms and allow your emotions, oh,

751
00:35:35,916 --> 00:35:37,836
Speaker 1: shut them off, like, can't feel that right now, just

752
00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:40,516
Speaker 1: going to pretend and keep moving, and you know, keep churning, right,

753
00:35:40,996 --> 00:35:43,756
Speaker 1: And I think that's bad for a bunch of reasons. Right.

754
00:35:43,836 --> 00:35:45,956
Speaker 1: One is, you know, we know from the lovely work

755
00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:49,596
Speaker 1: by like Stanford neuroscientists James Gross and others, that the

756
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,956
Speaker 1: act of suppressing your emotions is bad for your performance.

757
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:55,796
Speaker 1: You do worse for example on like you know, decision

758
00:35:55,916 --> 00:35:59,516
Speaker 1: tasks and memory tasks. It's also awful for your bodies.

759
00:35:59,676 --> 00:36:02,636
Speaker 1: Even in little laboratory tasks where you show people these

760
00:36:02,676 --> 00:36:05,076
Speaker 1: little emotion suppression tasks, you find that they put their

761
00:36:05,116 --> 00:36:08,116
Speaker 1: bodies under cardiac stress. Like, so you're screwing up your

762
00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:10,876
Speaker 1: performance and your growing up your bodies when you suppress

763
00:36:10,916 --> 00:36:13,756
Speaker 1: your emotions. The other thing is that you miss out

764
00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:17,236
Speaker 1: on an incredibly valuable signal. You know, we talk about

765
00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:20,036
Speaker 1: things like negative emotions, and we have this term that

766
00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:22,596
Speaker 1: they're like negative, right, you know, they're negative because they

767
00:36:22,596 --> 00:36:25,556
Speaker 1: don't feel great. But actually, if you think evolutionarily, these

768
00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:29,236
Speaker 1: things are awesome because there's signals of something that's going

769
00:36:29,356 --> 00:36:31,996
Speaker 1: badly that we should probably take some action to fix.

770
00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:36,276
Speaker 1: You could think of negative emotions like sadness, anger, feeling overwhelmed,

771
00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:38,196
Speaker 1: like you think of, you know, your hand on a

772
00:36:38,236 --> 00:36:40,316
Speaker 1: hot stove. If you stick your hand on a hot stove,

773
00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:43,476
Speaker 1: it's going to hurt, and that feeling doesn't feel great,

774
00:36:43,516 --> 00:36:45,516
Speaker 1: but it's there for a reason. Your body wants you

775
00:36:45,556 --> 00:36:48,076
Speaker 1: to yank your hand away so you can stop burning it.

776
00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:50,916
Speaker 1: And I think we forget that negative emotions kind of

777
00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:53,556
Speaker 1: work like that, you know, especially some negative emotions that

778
00:36:53,636 --> 00:36:55,996
Speaker 1: come up in the workplace these days. A lot of

779
00:36:56,076 --> 00:36:59,316
Speaker 1: my colleagues are talking about overwhelm, this emotion where you're

780
00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:02,556
Speaker 1: like you can't do it anymore. You are just burning out,

781
00:37:02,636 --> 00:37:04,916
Speaker 1: you are getting cynical with your colleagues. You're just not

782
00:37:05,116 --> 00:37:08,516
Speaker 1: enjoying what you used to enjoy. That's overwhelmed. And when

783
00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:11,116
Speaker 1: we experience it's not great because it makes it hard

784
00:37:11,156 --> 00:37:12,876
Speaker 1: to do our work and it feels unpleasant. So we're

785
00:37:12,916 --> 00:37:15,596
Speaker 1: like stuff it down, pretend that it's not happening. But

786
00:37:15,756 --> 00:37:17,756
Speaker 1: then that comes back to bite you. It's like leaving

787
00:37:17,796 --> 00:37:19,956
Speaker 1: your hand on a hot stove. And so I think

788
00:37:19,996 --> 00:37:22,476
Speaker 1: the second thing that's bad about suppressing emotions at work

789
00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:26,156
Speaker 1: is that we're ignoring these very honest signals that we

790
00:37:26,236 --> 00:37:28,596
Speaker 1: should take action on or things are going to get worse.

791
00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:30,876
Speaker 1: You know, stop when you get the first degree emotional

792
00:37:30,956 --> 00:37:33,716
Speaker 1: burn rather than the third degree and burnt off kind

793
00:37:33,716 --> 00:37:36,276
Speaker 1: of emotional burn. I really like so many of the

794
00:37:36,356 --> 00:37:38,716
Speaker 1: things you said there. I think it's really compelling to

795
00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:41,676
Speaker 1: have it pointed out to us that stuffing your emotions

796
00:37:41,836 --> 00:37:47,836
Speaker 1: can have negative psychological and physiological consequences for us. But

797
00:37:48,516 --> 00:37:51,796
Speaker 1: it's also true, at least in my experience, that stuffing

798
00:37:51,876 --> 00:37:55,556
Speaker 1: my emotions or not being okay with whatever I'm suffering

799
00:37:55,636 --> 00:37:58,796
Speaker 1: within the moment, can have negative consequences for anybody who's

800
00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:05,156
Speaker 1: in my orbit. They can become irradiated by my unmetabolized rage.

801
00:38:05,436 --> 00:38:07,316
Speaker 1: And I don't know if this is somebody that you've

802
00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:09,676
Speaker 1: had on your show, but somebody's been very cuential to me.

803
00:38:10,076 --> 00:38:13,836
Speaker 1: Jerry Colonna. He's a sort of famous in tech circles

804
00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:16,116
Speaker 1: that they call him the Yoda of Silicon Valley. As

805
00:38:16,116 --> 00:38:18,876
Speaker 1: a corporate coach, he was a very successful that your

806
00:38:18,916 --> 00:38:21,516
Speaker 1: capitalist for many years, had a bit of a life crisis,

807
00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:24,836
Speaker 1: got interested in Buddhism, changed his whole life, and now

808
00:38:24,956 --> 00:38:29,356
Speaker 1: works with CEOs and boards of directors to help people

809
00:38:29,876 --> 00:38:33,476
Speaker 1: be saner and more humane in the workplace. And I've

810
00:38:33,556 --> 00:38:35,636
Speaker 1: been working with him for several years. Like I said,

811
00:38:35,676 --> 00:38:38,036
Speaker 1: he's had a huge impact on me. And he once

812
00:38:38,116 --> 00:38:39,676
Speaker 1: said to me, and I'm probably gonna mangle this, but

813
00:38:39,796 --> 00:38:42,676
Speaker 1: something the effect of violence, by which he was not

814
00:38:42,796 --> 00:38:45,636
Speaker 1: referring to a physical violence, but sort of psychic or

815
00:38:45,676 --> 00:38:48,276
Speaker 1: psychological violence is what we do and we can't handle

816
00:38:48,356 --> 00:38:50,756
Speaker 1: our own suffering. And in the moment he said that,

817
00:38:50,836 --> 00:38:53,276
Speaker 1: I can interpolate back to my whole professional life and

818
00:38:53,356 --> 00:38:55,756
Speaker 1: see that all the damage or much of the damage

819
00:38:55,756 --> 00:38:58,196
Speaker 1: I'd done in the workplace was because I was not

820
00:38:58,516 --> 00:39:01,436
Speaker 1: up to the task of riding my own emotions and

821
00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:04,796
Speaker 1: then just lost it with people. Yeah, and it's not

822
00:39:04,916 --> 00:39:07,436
Speaker 1: just in your workplace, because I know lots of people

823
00:39:07,516 --> 00:39:09,876
Speaker 1: who you might be able to keep a pressure cooker

824
00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:12,876
Speaker 1: lid on in your workplace, but then you walk home

825
00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:14,836
Speaker 1: into your house and you see your spouse and the

826
00:39:14,956 --> 00:39:19,236
Speaker 1: dishwashers not put away correctly, and emotions. We think we

827
00:39:19,316 --> 00:39:21,556
Speaker 1: can hold the lid on, but these things are going

828
00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:23,676
Speaker 1: to come out. They're going to come out either in

829
00:39:23,756 --> 00:39:25,916
Speaker 1: our body where our fight or flight system is going

830
00:39:25,956 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 1: to take the brunt and we're going to have cardiac

831
00:39:28,156 --> 00:39:30,636
Speaker 1: problems and hormonal problems, we're not going to have our

832
00:39:30,716 --> 00:39:33,436
Speaker 1: digestion working right, or they're going to come out as

833
00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:36,076
Speaker 1: like much more extreme emotions that they didn't need to

834
00:39:36,196 --> 00:39:38,556
Speaker 1: get to if you just kind of dealt with them earlier.

835
00:39:39,036 --> 00:39:40,756
Speaker 1: But then that raises the question, which is how do

836
00:39:40,836 --> 00:39:42,636
Speaker 1: we deal with these emotions? And that's why I love

837
00:39:42,716 --> 00:39:45,156
Speaker 1: practices that you all have on like ten percent happier

838
00:39:45,396 --> 00:39:49,076
Speaker 1: about this idea of equanimity, where like we can kind

839
00:39:49,116 --> 00:39:51,836
Speaker 1: of be even keeled in the face of often really

840
00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:55,876
Speaker 1: negative emotions, especially if we notice them quickly find ways

841
00:39:55,956 --> 00:39:58,636
Speaker 1: to sort of allow them and investigate what they're doing

842
00:39:58,676 --> 00:40:01,996
Speaker 1: to our bodies. Yes, I'm obviously a big supporter of

843
00:40:02,396 --> 00:40:06,236
Speaker 1: the Barahma Viharas, including equanimity own at. I didn't plan

844
00:40:06,316 --> 00:40:07,956
Speaker 1: to say this, but it came into my bind. Is

845
00:40:08,036 --> 00:40:10,276
Speaker 1: something that might be useful for people, and I'm interested

846
00:40:10,276 --> 00:40:13,596
Speaker 1: to hear your reaction to it. Loris Burnet Brown talks

847
00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:15,836
Speaker 1: about a little phrase that she and her team use

848
00:40:15,916 --> 00:40:18,716
Speaker 1: around the office all the time, which is the story

849
00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:22,076
Speaker 1: I'm telling myself is dot dot dot, because I think

850
00:40:22,116 --> 00:40:25,996
Speaker 1: so many of us walk around with these paranoid, phantasmagoric

851
00:40:26,476 --> 00:40:30,396
Speaker 1: projections about what other people are thinking. Often they're not

852
00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,156
Speaker 1: thinking about us at all. It's our own conditioning and

853
00:40:33,596 --> 00:40:37,716
Speaker 1: past traumas or whatever that it's creating this story. But

854
00:40:37,996 --> 00:40:40,516
Speaker 1: if you don't deal with it, it can simmer and

855
00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:43,916
Speaker 1: then it can reach a boil. So my CEO and I,

856
00:40:44,196 --> 00:40:46,556
Speaker 1: the CEO of ten percent Happier, got named Ben Rubin,

857
00:40:46,596 --> 00:40:48,596
Speaker 1: with who I'm very close. We've worked together. It's a

858
00:40:48,716 --> 00:40:52,276
Speaker 1: kind of marriage really, and we've done couples counseling with

859
00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:55,036
Speaker 1: the aforementioned Jerry Colonna for years, and one of the

860
00:40:55,116 --> 00:40:58,156
Speaker 1: things we reached was this agreement that once in a

861
00:40:58,196 --> 00:41:00,916
Speaker 1: while we will say, can I let my amygdala speak?

862
00:41:01,076 --> 00:41:03,596
Speaker 1: Can I just tell you what the sphere center of

863
00:41:03,676 --> 00:41:06,956
Speaker 1: my brain is doing right now? And then everything I say,

864
00:41:07,036 --> 00:41:10,076
Speaker 1: even if it's not putting Ben in the most positive light,

865
00:41:10,356 --> 00:41:13,116
Speaker 1: I've framed it as, Look, this is my paranoia speaking.

866
00:41:13,156 --> 00:41:15,316
Speaker 1: I'm not accusing you of anything. This is just what

867
00:41:15,836 --> 00:41:19,476
Speaker 1: the darkest precincts in my mind are offering up right now.

868
00:41:19,756 --> 00:41:22,316
Speaker 1: That has been hugely helpful to our relationship, and it

869
00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:25,356
Speaker 1: really also helps me in my own mind sort between

870
00:41:25,476 --> 00:41:28,436
Speaker 1: fact and fiction. Does any of that land for you totally.

871
00:41:28,476 --> 00:41:31,236
Speaker 1: I mean the power of that is, I think twofold

872
00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:33,836
Speaker 1: run is you have to be aware of what those

873
00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:36,516
Speaker 1: stories are, so they're not just kind of in the background,

874
00:41:36,676 --> 00:41:39,076
Speaker 1: like controlling emotions. You kind of call them out, and

875
00:41:39,196 --> 00:41:41,316
Speaker 1: that can be powerful for the second reason, which is

876
00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:43,596
Speaker 1: then when you start to say them, when you say, well,

877
00:41:43,636 --> 00:41:46,116
Speaker 1: my amygdala is really thinking this thing. I mean, guess

878
00:41:46,196 --> 00:41:47,916
Speaker 1: is that a lot of times as you start saying it,

879
00:41:47,956 --> 00:41:50,476
Speaker 1: you're like, well, this is awful, Like this is very

880
00:41:50,516 --> 00:41:53,756
Speaker 1: black and white thinking, this is catastrophizing. No, you pull

881
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:56,596
Speaker 1: the big list that clinical psychologists talk about in cognitive

882
00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:59,396
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy of all the thinking errors, and your amygdala

883
00:41:59,516 --> 00:42:01,836
Speaker 1: is making every single one of those thinking errors. And

884
00:42:01,916 --> 00:42:04,436
Speaker 1: then your rational self can be like, Okay, that seems

885
00:42:04,436 --> 00:42:06,476
Speaker 1: a little black and white amygdala, let's like kind of

886
00:42:06,556 --> 00:42:08,956
Speaker 1: rain that in just a tad. But it's only by

887
00:42:08,996 --> 00:42:11,476
Speaker 1: that act of articulating it. I mean, sometimes these fears

888
00:42:11,556 --> 00:42:14,076
Speaker 1: can be so scary to us we can ever say them,

889
00:42:14,396 --> 00:42:16,596
Speaker 1: but then when we say them out loud, we're like, oh, wait,

890
00:42:16,716 --> 00:42:19,556
Speaker 1: that's dumb, or that's like extreme, or like even if

891
00:42:19,596 --> 00:42:21,556
Speaker 1: that happened, I'd be able to deal with it. You

892
00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:24,916
Speaker 1: can kind of negotiate with your own ambigduala thinking errors,

893
00:42:25,196 --> 00:42:27,356
Speaker 1: and that can be super powerful, and it can mean

894
00:42:27,436 --> 00:42:29,756
Speaker 1: that those emotions that would normally go with it, you

895
00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:31,796
Speaker 1: can kind of rain them in because you're not as

896
00:42:31,796 --> 00:42:33,956
Speaker 1: scared anymore, which doesn't lead to the downstream You're not

897
00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:36,796
Speaker 1: as frustrated anymore, or as pissed off anymore, and so on.

898
00:42:37,236 --> 00:42:39,836
Speaker 1: And in my experience, I mean, yes, everything you said,

899
00:42:39,916 --> 00:42:43,036
Speaker 1: and doing it with somebody else who you actually have

900
00:42:43,116 --> 00:42:46,156
Speaker 1: a foundation of trust with is even easier for me

901
00:42:46,436 --> 00:42:48,956
Speaker 1: because I am not trying to sort this all out

902
00:42:49,236 --> 00:42:52,396
Speaker 1: inside of what David Foster Wallace calls the skull sized

903
00:42:52,476 --> 00:42:55,596
Speaker 1: kingdom inside of my own head. I'm actually talking about

904
00:42:55,596 --> 00:42:57,756
Speaker 1: it with somebody else, and for me, that's much easier

905
00:42:57,916 --> 00:43:00,236
Speaker 1: to do the processing. Yeah, and it's helpful for them

906
00:43:00,316 --> 00:43:02,876
Speaker 1: to know where those kind of core triggers and fears are,

907
00:43:03,156 --> 00:43:05,716
Speaker 1: because if it's somebody that you trust and who wants

908
00:43:05,756 --> 00:43:08,436
Speaker 1: to see you succeed, they can recognize, oh, when I

909
00:43:08,516 --> 00:43:11,516
Speaker 1: said that, I didn't realize I was stepping on your

910
00:43:11,596 --> 00:43:14,036
Speaker 1: core terror or this core thing that's going to trigger you.

911
00:43:14,196 --> 00:43:16,556
Speaker 1: And that can kind of build relationships for the future too.

912
00:43:16,756 --> 00:43:18,876
Speaker 1: I have one more area I wanted to explore with you,

913
00:43:19,036 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 1: but before I go there, is there anything else you

914
00:43:20,836 --> 00:43:23,956
Speaker 1: want to say about working with emotions within the workplace? No,

915
00:43:24,076 --> 00:43:26,196
Speaker 1: I want to hear the last area we're going too. Well,

916
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:27,996
Speaker 1: it's your idea. I'm just you know, you send me

917
00:43:28,036 --> 00:43:29,476
Speaker 1: a bunch of things you wanted to talk about, and

918
00:43:29,796 --> 00:43:31,636
Speaker 1: they were also good that I'm trying to work my

919
00:43:31,716 --> 00:43:33,196
Speaker 1: way through them, so I don't want to take any

920
00:43:33,236 --> 00:43:35,076
Speaker 1: credit where it's not due. You sent me a note

921
00:43:35,076 --> 00:43:37,356
Speaker 1: and you said something to the effect of many of

922
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:41,756
Speaker 1: us carry a misperception that we hate work. Why is

923
00:43:41,756 --> 00:43:44,236
Speaker 1: that a misperception. One of the things that we talk

924
00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:45,956
Speaker 1: about a lot on my podcast and then I talk

925
00:43:45,996 --> 00:43:47,476
Speaker 1: a lot a lot with my Yale students, is this

926
00:43:47,596 --> 00:43:49,996
Speaker 1: idea that we have all these misconceptions when it comes

927
00:43:49,996 --> 00:43:52,196
Speaker 1: to our own happiness. We have misconceptions when it comes

928
00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:54,156
Speaker 1: to what we really like and what we really enjoy,

929
00:43:54,516 --> 00:43:56,436
Speaker 1: and I think the workplace is one of these. So

930
00:43:56,636 --> 00:43:59,356
Speaker 1: there's this lovely study where if you ping people at

931
00:43:59,476 --> 00:44:01,356
Speaker 1: random times at their work, you know, to set them

932
00:44:01,436 --> 00:44:03,316
Speaker 1: up with a little smartphone app that dings and says, hey,

933
00:44:03,356 --> 00:44:05,916
Speaker 1: how are you feeling right now. Generally speaking, people are

934
00:44:06,036 --> 00:44:08,916
Speaker 1: okay at work usually because they're in flow right kind

935
00:44:08,916 --> 00:44:10,916
Speaker 1: of doing something. It's kind of taking up your time.

936
00:44:10,956 --> 00:44:13,196
Speaker 1: It feels good. It feels better, for example, than what

937
00:44:13,236 --> 00:44:15,556
Speaker 1: we were talking about before with the Netflix scrolling when

938
00:44:15,596 --> 00:44:18,036
Speaker 1: you're on like screen number forty seven of different movies

939
00:44:18,116 --> 00:44:19,996
Speaker 1: that are scrolling by. If you ping me then and

940
00:44:20,036 --> 00:44:22,676
Speaker 1: say how you're feeling, I feel apathetic. I am not

941
00:44:22,836 --> 00:44:24,516
Speaker 1: in flow, and though you know that, I'm like, I

942
00:44:24,636 --> 00:44:27,116
Speaker 1: feel kind of gross. And the sad thing is that

943
00:44:27,316 --> 00:44:29,556
Speaker 1: for many of us, when we're at work, we get

944
00:44:29,596 --> 00:44:31,716
Speaker 1: these moments of flow, we get these moments of connection

945
00:44:31,756 --> 00:44:33,956
Speaker 1: where we're talking to other people and talking to teammates

946
00:44:33,996 --> 00:44:37,116
Speaker 1: and figuring out ideas and things. But oftentimes we're so

947
00:44:37,276 --> 00:44:39,236
Speaker 1: bad at picking our leisure that when you ping us

948
00:44:39,316 --> 00:44:41,796
Speaker 1: during leisure, we're kind of bored, or we're like half

949
00:44:41,836 --> 00:44:44,276
Speaker 1: paying attention to our phones or kind of not doing it.

950
00:44:44,636 --> 00:44:47,236
Speaker 1: Paying people at work they're kind of happy and flow.

951
00:44:47,516 --> 00:44:50,036
Speaker 1: Paying people at leisure, they're start of feeling apathetic. How

952
00:44:50,116 --> 00:44:52,436
Speaker 1: have you ask people when they're at work? Would you

953
00:44:52,516 --> 00:44:54,876
Speaker 1: rather be at work? Would you rather be in leisure?

954
00:44:54,916 --> 00:44:56,956
Speaker 1: People are like leisure and if you ping me, you know,

955
00:44:57,036 --> 00:44:58,636
Speaker 1: when I'm in the middle of my Netflix scrolling and

956
00:44:58,756 --> 00:45:00,316
Speaker 1: say Laurie, would you rather be at work and be like,

957
00:45:00,396 --> 00:45:03,076
Speaker 1: no way, dude, I'm home, like I'm taking the day off.

958
00:45:03,436 --> 00:45:06,036
Speaker 1: And so we are actually happier at work than we think,

959
00:45:06,236 --> 00:45:09,356
Speaker 1: and maybe more problematically, we're actually less happy be a

960
00:45:09,436 --> 00:45:11,756
Speaker 1: leisure than we think. And this is something we really

961
00:45:11,836 --> 00:45:14,436
Speaker 1: can control. We need leisure that allows us to be

962
00:45:14,596 --> 00:45:16,676
Speaker 1: more and flow that allows us to be a little

963
00:45:16,716 --> 00:45:18,516
Speaker 1: bit more present, that allows us to be kind of

964
00:45:18,596 --> 00:45:21,396
Speaker 1: doing things a little bit more actively, and so finding

965
00:45:21,436 --> 00:45:24,916
Speaker 1: ways to get in some active leisure can be quite powerful.

966
00:45:25,156 --> 00:45:27,196
Speaker 1: I'll offer something up here that's been helpful for me,

967
00:45:27,516 --> 00:45:30,836
Speaker 1: and I resisted because I resist everything because I have

968
00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:34,556
Speaker 1: a sort of unhelpful variety sometimes of skepticism. But if

969
00:45:34,636 --> 00:45:37,756
Speaker 1: something strikes me as at all hokey, I will often

970
00:45:37,836 --> 00:45:41,716
Speaker 1: get my backup setting intentions. But I have found that

971
00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:45,276
Speaker 1: setting intentions with some regularity is a really great way

972
00:45:45,396 --> 00:45:49,156
Speaker 1: to be mindful. Mindful and the purest expression of that word,

973
00:45:49,316 --> 00:45:51,676
Speaker 1: if you go back to the polly word, that's the

974
00:45:51,716 --> 00:45:55,556
Speaker 1: ancient language of polly that was spoken at or around

975
00:45:55,596 --> 00:45:58,636
Speaker 1: the time of the Buddha. The word is sati, and

976
00:45:58,876 --> 00:46:02,556
Speaker 1: one of the translations of sati is recollecting or remembering,

977
00:46:02,796 --> 00:46:05,396
Speaker 1: and that's what we're doing in meditation. We're remembering to

978
00:46:05,556 --> 00:46:08,636
Speaker 1: wake up and be awake right here. And so setting

979
00:46:08,636 --> 00:46:11,076
Speaker 1: an intention like I'm about to go to Disney World

980
00:46:11,156 --> 00:46:15,196
Speaker 1: with my family, and my intentions will be to disconnect

981
00:46:15,756 --> 00:46:18,996
Speaker 1: from work and to enjoy my time with my family,

982
00:46:19,116 --> 00:46:21,636
Speaker 1: and I can while I'm on the wed Way, people

983
00:46:21,716 --> 00:46:25,076
Speaker 1: mover or whatever with my family, I might notice myself plotting,

984
00:46:25,316 --> 00:46:29,476
Speaker 1: you know, the overthrow of whatever some you know, some rival,

985
00:46:29,836 --> 00:46:32,716
Speaker 1: or you know, planning some expletive filled speech I'm going

986
00:46:32,756 --> 00:46:35,276
Speaker 1: to give to Ben when I get back. Uh, Nope,

987
00:46:36,076 --> 00:46:38,156
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm doing right now. I am looking

988
00:46:38,196 --> 00:46:40,396
Speaker 1: at the joy on my son's face, feeling that warm

989
00:46:40,476 --> 00:46:44,636
Speaker 1: Florida air against my face, etcetera, etcetera. For work, similar thing,

990
00:46:44,716 --> 00:46:45,836
Speaker 1: you know, I wake up in the morning and I

991
00:46:45,996 --> 00:46:48,756
Speaker 1: try to remember to say, well, my intention is to

992
00:46:49,236 --> 00:46:51,836
Speaker 1: make awesome stuff that helps people do their lives better,

993
00:46:51,996 --> 00:46:54,476
Speaker 1: and while I'm at it, to have good relationships with

994
00:46:54,596 --> 00:46:57,636
Speaker 1: everybody I'm working with. Setting these intentions with some regularity

995
00:46:57,716 --> 00:47:02,276
Speaker 1: while I still am deeply, deeply fallible has made me better,

996
00:47:02,436 --> 00:47:04,556
Speaker 1: I think so again, I'll ask you, does any of

997
00:47:04,596 --> 00:47:06,516
Speaker 1: that land for you totally? I mean, one of the

998
00:47:06,636 --> 00:47:09,436
Speaker 1: biggest issues I think with our brain, in the way

999
00:47:09,436 --> 00:47:11,876
Speaker 1: our minds are set up, is that that recollection doesn't

1000
00:47:11,876 --> 00:47:14,876
Speaker 1: happen naturally. We can have goals in these really rational

1001
00:47:14,996 --> 00:47:17,276
Speaker 1: theories about the kinds of things will enjoy. You know,

1002
00:47:17,276 --> 00:47:19,076
Speaker 1: if you're at Disneyland, you're probably going to enjoy more

1003
00:47:19,436 --> 00:47:22,036
Speaker 1: watching the smile on your son's face than ruminating about

1004
00:47:22,076 --> 00:47:24,276
Speaker 1: some bad decision at work that happened three weeks ago.

1005
00:47:24,476 --> 00:47:27,676
Speaker 1: But our brains don't naturally make the choice correctly. And

1006
00:47:27,796 --> 00:47:29,956
Speaker 1: I think, you know, our systems kind of naturally go

1007
00:47:30,116 --> 00:47:33,836
Speaker 1: to the things that feel easy, that feel negative. Right

1008
00:47:33,836 --> 00:47:36,476
Speaker 1: with this negativity bias, our attention kind of just goes there.

1009
00:47:36,636 --> 00:47:38,796
Speaker 1: They go to the things that are easy dopamine hits.

1010
00:47:38,916 --> 00:47:40,436
Speaker 1: As much as you might want to look at your

1011
00:47:40,516 --> 00:47:43,196
Speaker 1: child smiling expression, you know your email is going to

1012
00:47:43,236 --> 00:47:45,516
Speaker 1: be yanking on the little dopamine chords in a way

1013
00:47:45,556 --> 00:47:47,876
Speaker 1: that will kind of move your attention in the wrong

1014
00:47:47,996 --> 00:47:50,236
Speaker 1: direction in terms of what will really make you happy

1015
00:47:50,276 --> 00:47:52,116
Speaker 1: and make you remember the trip well. And so I

1016
00:47:52,196 --> 00:47:54,756
Speaker 1: think this practice of intention setting is just a way

1017
00:47:54,876 --> 00:47:58,596
Speaker 1: to fight all these natural biases of where our negativity

1018
00:47:58,676 --> 00:48:00,236
Speaker 1: is going to take us, where our dopamine hits are

1019
00:48:00,276 --> 00:48:02,076
Speaker 1: going to take us. It kind of pulls us back

1020
00:48:02,116 --> 00:48:04,756
Speaker 1: into the moment. But that has to be sadly, I mean,

1021
00:48:04,796 --> 00:48:06,396
Speaker 1: it's stupid that our brains work this way, but it

1022
00:48:06,476 --> 00:48:09,196
Speaker 1: has to be an explicit practice. It doesn't work like

1023
00:48:09,396 --> 00:48:12,116
Speaker 1: regular memory. We have to put some work into remembering

1024
00:48:12,156 --> 00:48:14,436
Speaker 1: and reminding ourselves so that we can kind of do

1025
00:48:14,516 --> 00:48:17,076
Speaker 1: it correctly. And that's true in leisure, but it's definitely

1026
00:48:17,156 --> 00:48:19,596
Speaker 1: true at work. Sometimes my intention setting at work is

1027
00:48:19,676 --> 00:48:21,796
Speaker 1: like I wanted to get through this big project, but

1028
00:48:21,876 --> 00:48:23,396
Speaker 1: I also wanted to get through this big project in

1029
00:48:23,436 --> 00:48:25,436
Speaker 1: a way that didn't make my students feel like crap,

1030
00:48:25,796 --> 00:48:27,516
Speaker 1: or like make my colleagues kind of hate me or

1031
00:48:27,556 --> 00:48:29,876
Speaker 1: push them to the brink. Right, we want to do things,

1032
00:48:29,956 --> 00:48:31,876
Speaker 1: but we want to do things in a particular way,

1033
00:48:31,956 --> 00:48:35,716
Speaker 1: in a particular manner, with a particular kind of emotional stability,

1034
00:48:35,876 --> 00:48:38,716
Speaker 1: and so remembering that that is part of the goal too,

1035
00:48:38,876 --> 00:48:42,036
Speaker 1: can be really quite important. Well said in closing here,

1036
00:48:42,116 --> 00:48:44,316
Speaker 1: can you just plug everything you're doing, because I think

1037
00:48:44,796 --> 00:48:46,916
Speaker 1: my listeners will get a lot out of it. Obviously

1038
00:48:46,916 --> 00:48:48,716
Speaker 1: you have this amazing podcast in which you can talk

1039
00:48:48,756 --> 00:48:51,036
Speaker 1: about if you want, but anything else you've put out

1040
00:48:51,036 --> 00:48:53,436
Speaker 1: into the universe that might be useful for folks, Yeah,

1041
00:48:53,516 --> 00:48:56,076
Speaker 1: the best is to check out the Happiness Lab podcast

1042
00:48:56,156 --> 00:48:58,956
Speaker 1: where starting new seasons hopefully soon. If you missed to

1043
00:48:58,996 --> 00:49:00,836
Speaker 1: see our last season three, you should check it out.

1044
00:49:00,956 --> 00:49:03,356
Speaker 1: Lots on these errors of our mind and going after

1045
00:49:03,436 --> 00:49:05,956
Speaker 1: dopamine and what you can do to find more fun.

1046
00:49:06,356 --> 00:49:08,556
Speaker 1: But I also wanted to plug for my folks this

1047
00:49:08,716 --> 00:49:11,156
Speaker 1: fantastic stick thing you have coming up where folks can

1048
00:49:11,236 --> 00:49:13,476
Speaker 1: really sign up to kind of think more about their

1049
00:49:13,516 --> 00:49:16,836
Speaker 1: relationship with work and find more intention. So tell me

1050
00:49:16,836 --> 00:49:19,516
Speaker 1: about the challenge. So we're doing a meditation challenge. We're

1051
00:49:19,556 --> 00:49:22,356
Speaker 1: calling it the Work Life Challenge. It starts on November eighth.

1052
00:49:22,516 --> 00:49:24,156
Speaker 1: You can get it for free if you download the

1053
00:49:24,196 --> 00:49:26,796
Speaker 1: ten percent Happier app. Every day we'll serve you up

1054
00:49:26,836 --> 00:49:29,276
Speaker 1: a little video that'll be me talking to a meditation

1055
00:49:29,396 --> 00:49:33,476
Speaker 1: expert about some of the challenges we may face at work.

1056
00:49:33,636 --> 00:49:36,156
Speaker 1: And right after the little video ends, it'll slide directly

1057
00:49:36,236 --> 00:49:39,156
Speaker 1: into a guided meditation that will help you sort of

1058
00:49:39,356 --> 00:49:42,476
Speaker 1: as I like to say, pound the lessons into your neurons.

1059
00:49:42,796 --> 00:49:46,036
Speaker 1: So we find this combination of video and then audio

1060
00:49:46,116 --> 00:49:50,276
Speaker 1: guided meditation to be really really effective. And so starting

1061
00:49:50,316 --> 00:49:52,236
Speaker 1: on the eighth, you can do the work Life Challenge

1062
00:49:52,276 --> 00:49:54,916
Speaker 1: for free on the ten Happier App. I think this

1063
00:49:55,236 --> 00:49:57,836
Speaker 1: is awesome. In fact, I'm publicly committing that I'm going

1064
00:49:57,876 --> 00:50:00,316
Speaker 1: to do this myself. I feel like November eighth is

1065
00:50:00,396 --> 00:50:03,596
Speaker 1: perfect timing because at least in North America, right like,

1066
00:50:03,716 --> 00:50:06,596
Speaker 1: our time is going to change, it's getting dark sooner.

1067
00:50:06,836 --> 00:50:08,756
Speaker 1: This is a time when my brain might naturally go

1068
00:50:08,876 --> 00:50:11,956
Speaker 1: into like hermit low emotion kind of mode and to

1069
00:50:12,116 --> 00:50:14,196
Speaker 1: like take a challenge where I can say, like, no,

1070
00:50:14,436 --> 00:50:17,836
Speaker 1: I'm going to be actively working on positive emotion at work.

1071
00:50:17,956 --> 00:50:20,036
Speaker 1: This sounds awesome. I'm in Thanks so much for sharing

1072
00:50:20,156 --> 00:50:25,876
Speaker 1: us my pleasure. Thank you. Thanks again to Dan Harris

1073
00:50:25,956 --> 00:50:28,276
Speaker 1: for having me back on his show. It's always great

1074
00:50:28,316 --> 00:50:30,476
Speaker 1: to talk to him. And don't forget to sign up

1075
00:50:30,516 --> 00:50:32,876
Speaker 1: for the free work Life Challenge on the ten percent

1076
00:50:32,956 --> 00:50:36,956
Speaker 1: Happier app. The challenge starts Monday, November eight, and I'll

1077
00:50:36,956 --> 00:50:41,436
Speaker 1: be doing it right alongside you. The Happiness Lab will

1078
00:50:41,436 --> 00:50:44,596
Speaker 1: be back soon with more new episodes, so stay tuned,