WEBVTT - The Widemans : Part 1 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:10.880 Place your left hand on the bay Bible and raise 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.560 your right hand and repeat after me. I do solemnly 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:19.760 swear the jury find a defendant not. Protests continued this 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:24.280 weekend at Ferguson and around the country. Resisting makes no sense. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.960 If it doesn't fit, you must have quit. Judge, you 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.360 are the last line of reason in this casey, every 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.720 one of us took it all the sapotas, and we're 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:39.159 sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:45.080 this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Is this 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:50.320 Mason Lindsay, Yes, this is Don't ever call me about this. 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.800 I don't like your brother, don't like you, and I 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.120 don't know a god damn thing about the murderit case 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.040 you asked me about. But I do to know about y'all. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.400 What a bunch of swine you are, So don't ever 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:16.120 call me. Okay. After decades of working within the criminal 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.480 justice system, I've seen that I've experienced firsthand the told 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.760 the job takes on those who dedicate their lives to 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.440 public safety, whether you're a sheriff or a local police officer, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.160 and a heinous crime takes place in your town. You 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.080 want that case to be solved. You need it to 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.560 be closed, and quite frankly, you want the right person 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.080 behind bars. You've sworn to protect your community. But what 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.840 happens when a case starts to slip away? What happens 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.720 when you still can't find the answers after a year, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.400 after two years, three years, ten years, fifteen years? What 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.840 can the criminal justice system do to keep these cold 0:01:54.960 --> 0:02:00.440 cases alive? When responsibility for solving a case changes hands 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.160 time and time again, at the end of the day, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.000 who really does bear the burden of Solider kids? On 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.720 today's episode, we'll explore all this through the framework of 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:24.000 the Wideman Kids still unsolved after fifth teen years. Hello, 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.560 Mr Wise, ye hi, this is Philip Holloway from the 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.040 Sworn podcast. How are you doing good? If you have 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.120 just a minute, do you mind speaking with me about 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.760 the Wideman case. I have a minute to speak with 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.120 you about it. It's my understanding you were one of 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.600 the first people to arrive on the scene. Is that correct, Yes, sir, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.720 I was the first one to get there. I was 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.399 actually a fire powder for the County Powder Corfet turn 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.200 the Carty Macnya, so I was a volunteer you. So 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.240 that morning we had a had a fire. I responded 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.960 to in my personal vehicle, called inside a fire department, 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.720 and another guy was picking up the fire truth so 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.880 I got to the scene before. So you were actually 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.760 the first person to arrive, Yester, I was the first 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:17.240 one to arrive at a m on March twenty second 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.920 two thou and two, a truck driver passing through Rebecca, 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.519 Georgia saw a large fire from the highway. After the 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:28.440 driver called the Turner County Volunteer Fire Department responded and 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.120 James Wise was the first one at the scene. When 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.920 I got into that place, I always up the driveway. 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.640 I backed all the way just about out to the 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.560 highway where they had some double gates, and I parked there. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.560 It was a real dark night sometimes you have those freeeding. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.120 I walked up to that house and it was dark 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.600 and just had a bad feeling that morning. Once I 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.360 looked around and I've seen all the cars there, I 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:00.560 just had a feeling those people was in the house. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:05.280 Because always the home the property belonged to the Wideman family, 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.440 and the house there was engulfed in flames within minutes 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.840 of the firefighter's arrival. The roof of the one story 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.160 home had collapsed. The Whiteman's vehicles were parked around the property, 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.400 but the Widen family was nowhere to be found. When 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.400 I got there, the whole house. You could see the 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.640 whole front of the house. It wasn't burning. Burning at 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.680 the end of the house would but it was a 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.960 very windy morning. It was. It was real windy that morning. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.159 It was just crushing the fire. Actually it prushed the 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.080 fire all the way from one end of the house 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:35.800 out the other end. That they had a big field 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.080 of pine trees there, and it actually called trees on 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.680 fire out there. I went to the front door, and 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:44.880 I didn't not from the front door. The front door 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.680 was shooting. And I can steal a memory real good 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.240 that it's a solid white front door. And so I 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.960 made it to the door, but I wasn't never able 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.000 to make the entry into the home. I called on 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.080 the radio and informed them that on the cards the day, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.080 and I felt like that they possibly was in the house. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:12.160 Actually called and told him they was probably home. If 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.760 I can remember properly, it seemed like we were on 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.080 the outside of the house and could look in one 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.960 of the fig rings. When we first distubored one of 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:25.000 the bodies. Fifty one year old Tommy Joe or T. J. Wideman, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.880 forty eight year old Devor Wheeler Wideman, and the twenty 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.720 two year old pregnant daughter Melissa were found dead inside 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:35.040 of the decimated home. They were very bad. They was 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.400 like their legs. It was just like the torsos and 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.240 Leo if burnt. If they was burnt, pretty bad. We 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:46.120 put the victims then body bag. They loaded them up. 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.320 They took him to have to the crime now I 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.760 think where they took them. But when they lay them, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.320 it didn't take them long. They called the Stack We 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.720 were still on the scene to share. He found out 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:03.240 when we got back these people been shot. It started 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.120 as a terrible and inexplicable house fire, but when the 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.599 fire ended, a more disturbing mystery began. The fire hadn't 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.479 been the cause of death for any of the Wideman's. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.120 All of them had been shot, and the fire that 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.839 was deemed the result of person It wasn't immediately apparent 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.360 that they had been shot. It took some further examination 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.280 to figure that out. That's why I actually they was 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.000 just kind of treating it like it wasn't like they 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.440 hadn't been shot. Ory, it's not like that. After they 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.040 called back, everything has changed. Right after the g P 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.120 I got there and started talking. They weren't to interview. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.560 He asked me. He said, what made you feel like 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.599 stare is wrong here today? I feel well, I said. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.839 The first thing. Every who called, they wasn't here at 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.400 the house when I got here, and they said a 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.880 struck driver rocket, So it raised my speak. It's just 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.680 phrase without the ordinary. I said. So I just down 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.280 here and I've seen all the cars here, and I 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.560 felt like the people get home. I did not know 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.799 that being shot or anything like that, but things just wouldn't. 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.240 Time I got I said, well, something's wrong. There ain't 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.800 nobody here, because nine times out of ten, if a 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.080 person calls, they wait till we get there. If they're 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.800 sitting there. There was no one there when I pulled up. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.200 It's about twelve thirteen miles Master. Like people responding to 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.000 the fire, most of them had to come all the 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.560 way from Master. I knew the sheriff got there pretty quick, 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.400 and I'm gonna be honest, I kind of luke the 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.760 round and watched stains, and I know that, uh, I 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:42.440 can't remember him going to Mr Charles Henry's, which was 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.720 the guy that was deceased in the house's brother, because 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.400 we had him had the fire full extinguished, and I 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.720 remember him pulling up out front. He got out and 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.520 looked and you know, and he left. He didn't say 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.680 you along. But after it got daylight, there were several 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.520 of my officers here, and like I said, they called 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.000 a g b I mean they came to see because 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:10.440 he interviewed me after seeing it was the same day. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.920 So then it seems that the sheriff brought the g 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.960 b I in pretty much right away. Yes, sir, who 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.040 was the sheriff at that time, Randy Kendrick. Was it 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.240 your impression that the g b I took over the 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.360 case from the very beginning yesterday? They took over the case. 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.720 Did anybody at the g b I or anyone in 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.960 law enforcement ever talk to you about any potential suspects 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:34.960 that they might have or they may have been looking 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.040 at that They never talked to me after that day. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.280 After the gp I talked to me, I know what 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:46.400 everything contact. What was the coroner's role in this, you know, 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.920 him being the corner, he just wanted, you know, pronounced 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:51.640 them to be and he comes out and get them. 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.959 Anyone that made the call back after he took the body. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.560 Do you remember who the coroner was at the time, 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.760 I'm pretty do you know what Edgar Perry's normal job 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:11.760 was his brother, So he's not a medical trained person. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.800 He's not a physician. He's a funeral home owner or 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.640 a funeral director who also was the elected coroner. Is 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.280 that right? That's right, that's right, So he would have 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.480 had to have some medical professional help him determine that 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.959 they had been shot. For clarification, the coroner, Edgar Perry, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.000 is an elected official, not a physician, but a funeral 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.280 homeowner in Turner County. He wouldn't be the sole voice 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.760 in determining the cause of death for the wideman's but 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:39.719 he would be the one to certify their death within 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:44.880 his area of jurisdiction. The incident took place in the 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.000 small town of Rebecca, Georgia, which is part of Turner County, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:53.240 roughly two and a half hours south of Atlanta. Rebecca 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.520 is a quiet place without a lot of devious crime, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.840 least of all a triple homicide. Firstly, Rebecca is really 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.240 really small, only about point eight square miles, not exactly 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.000 the kind of place you'd think of as a hotbed 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.280 for crime. According to the latest census records, there's a 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.480 population of under two hundred people. The next biggest town, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.360 about twelve miles away, is Ashburn, with population under four thousand. 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:26.000 Farmings still probably the main income, but there's no factories 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.079 or anything done in Rebecca except some little communience stores. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.040 That's Patti Jones, whose mother and her whole family were 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.280 from Rebecca growing up. Patty spent a lot of time 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.200 there and new t J. Wideman personally because his family 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.439 on the local hardware store. We were all shocked because 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:46.600 t J was loving, kind person. He would never hurt anybody. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.600 He was always helpful. He had a great sense of humor. 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.200 He was disabled. I don't know if it was by birth, 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.080 but he had a hard time getting around and walk 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.760 were the kane, so he could ever really hurting one. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.640 It was just a great guy to be around, always cheerful, 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.959 even though he was in a bad disposition. When I 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.440 saw t J at the Mark, we started talking because 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.719 we were trying to catch up, and he told me 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:18.439 that he was the tax commissioner of the county, and 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.000 you know that that job a lot of people don't 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.319 like you because of that, and so we laughed about it, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:29.240 and uh, he talked about his daughter, Melissa was pregnant. 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.040 You know, I was like, wow, that's great. And he 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.760 didn't tell me that she wasn't married, but I really 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:36.480 didn't know how old she was or anything like that. 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.839 But they were all excited about her gonna have the baby. So, 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.920 you know, speculation. Everybody was like, Okay, well, it could 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.199 have been somebody that didn't like him because he was 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:53.640 a tax commissioner, or because maybe Melissa something's about the baby. 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.480 And then there was always speculation that maybe because his brother, 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.679 this was a rumor that his brother was not in 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.679 the wheel or something like that, so people speculated that 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.079 maybe his brother had had something to do with it. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.400 I know he and his brother weren't real close. Of course, 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.880 everybody has their own theories, so I hate to jump 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.880 to one because I don't really know Charles either. That 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.560 was just hearsay. Everybody was just floored because everybody loved 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.560 t J. And he was very verbal and great guy, 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:31.679 you know, had a happy attitude and just devastated. Everyone's 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.679 floored that something so terrible could happen to such a 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.679 good guy and in his family. He was in the 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.880 center of the town, so everybody that needed anything at 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.559 the hardware store New T j. And the fact that 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.760 they weren't in their own house that night, they were 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.439 staying at his mother's house. And how would someone know 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.839 that that right there? Makes you wonder. You'd have to 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:55.920 make an effort to get to it. You'd have to 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.880 look for it. That night, the white mens were staying 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.480 in Tommy Joe's mother's use. This is something they did 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:03.920 whenever Tommy Joe's mother went down to her second home 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.240 in Florida. Reportedly, they stay there on and off for 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.360 extended periods of time. Her house and Rebecca is secluded, 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.760 not someplace you'd easily stumble upon down there. You don't 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.480 have a police there's no police station, there's you have 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.839 to rely on Ashburn. They don't have the facilities like 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.160 a big city. I mean, I'm sure the g b 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.160 I came in, but never heard anything about what they found. 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:33.360 It's a small town gets passed over. It's becomes uh, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.760 you know, just part of being in the small town atmosphere. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:42.319 People probably just keep wandering and I know that nothing's 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:46.800 ever gonna be done about it, and hopefully the podcast 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.760 will bring out some more information, get things started, I hope, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.400 but people Rebecca will come out and start talking about 0:13:54.440 --> 0:14:00.920 it again. This is something I've heard before. Smalltown crime 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.160 does get passed over, sometimes simply because it affects a 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.400 smaller number of people in a place like Rebecca. We're 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:13.520 talking about minimal government services. We're talking about volunteer fire departments. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.800 We're talking about law enforcement with longer response times. We're 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.240 talking about sheriff's departments that are spread very thin, and 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.280 perhaps a state trooper who passes by every now and then, 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.040 but for the most part, it's in the middle of nowhere. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.000 Local law enforcement, particularly the Sheriff's office, responded first along 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.600 with the corner but ultimately it was the Georgia Bureau 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.320 of Investigation that was called in and was handed control 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:47.480 and responsibility for investigating the widen emerged. I know a 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.520 thing or two myself about cold cases and what it 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.760 takes to investigate them, but I don't want you to 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.960 have to take my word for it, So I reached 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.760 back out to my friend John Dawes, who is a 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.600 subject matter expert in the field the cold case investigation. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.600 He currently works for the Cobb County District Attorney's Office 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.800 in Marietta, Georgia. Before that, John was a very good 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.480 homicide detective who I've faced in court many times, and 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.400 so I know that he knows his stuff. What experience 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.040 if any of you had with a murder or a 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.760 homicide or a killing where the perpetrator used a fire 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.840 to destroy evidence of how someone was killed. I've been 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.240 involved in some cases like that. It's a person's attempt 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.960 to tamper with evidence to cover their trail. Does it work? Seldom? 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.720 When you bring in fire into a scene, yes, it 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:44.560 burns evidence in many aspects. But if you're not schooled 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.080 in how to start a fire and allow it to raise, 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.840 then sometimes it works against you. If you're using that 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.880 to cover your crime. Arson investigators come in, they can 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.080 determine the origin, They can determine whether or not an 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.440 accelerant was used, and then if you have a suspect 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.840 quickly enough, you can test them for the accelerant their clothing. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.680 You and I stopped to get fuel in our car 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.320 on the way to the house. We're gonna have some 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.280 gas on us somewhere when we get home. Sometimes it 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.080 works against the bad guy. If fire started and doesn't 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.800 fully in golf a structure, then you can still get 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:23.720 fingerprints because the oily substance left by the ridge impressions. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.800 If it's a fully engulfed fire, then yes, it's very 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.520 challenging to get any evidence out of that scene. This 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.160 is a small town. Rebecca probably has two or three 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.360 hundred people living there, some related, some are as close 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.800 as relatives. Everybody knows everybody, and in all likelihood many 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.800 members of the law enforcement community are are well aware 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.600 of all the residents as well. I think that people 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:53.080 who are intimately close to a major crime like this, 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.800 the longer it goes unsolved, the more they just accept 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.960 that it won't ever be solved, and eventually, unfortunately, they 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.640 just stopped talking about it and just deal with it 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.480 as best they can. But rumors always abound in cases 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.520 like this that can be beneficial to the case, and 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.040 it can also throw the case off track. You really 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.320 have to spend a lot of time dusting off the case, 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.520 focusing yourself back into the facts of the case. You 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.880 don't want to get to a point where you don't 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.280 remember whether something is a fact of the case or 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.359 whether it's someone's opinion or theory about the case. So 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:37.040 our biggest author unknown phrases, keep it simple, stupid, and 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.720 go back to the facts of the case, the circumstances 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:41.520 of the case, and the physical evidence of the case. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.960 In order to get someplace a small agency like this 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.600 sheriff's office, which I don't know. Turner County is probably 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.960 eight or ten thousand people. Small shaff's office, and it's 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.320 probably a widespread area, so their numbers would be probably 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.560 challenge men powerwise, but they may not see that much 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.760 violent crime like in other areas of Georgia. Regardless of that, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.240 Sheriff's office desire to do the best that they can do. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.080 Regardless of their ability to do the best that they 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.639 can do, they're gonna face challenges because of the closeness 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.680 of the community. You bring in uh the g B I, 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.800 I would suspect they came in from Perry, and those 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.240 gb agents are not known by the local people. They're 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.200 not seen in the area all the time. They don't 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.280 go to school with them, they don't go to church 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.199 with them. They don't know him as well, and they 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.200 may not be as free within their mind to talk 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.120 to a GBI agent where they might have Shaff's office. Yes, 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.240 you get more resources when you bring in the state agency, 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.760 and that's obviously good when it comes to getting the 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.199 postmortem examinations done and getting evidence processed, but it may 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.840 make the case more difficult to work for the GBI 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.800 because they don't know those people like the sheriff's office stuff. 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:02.440 Is it possible for a local era of to keep jurisdiction, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.200 if you will, for being the lead on the case, 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:11.600 but still utilize bits and pieces of state resources. My 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.040 understanding is that you want to and you're kind of 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:19.159 permitted to work alongside them. Like the sheriff's office likely 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.040 had an investigator assigned to the g b I to 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.399 keep things rolling and keep things between the two agencies. 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.359 I've been involved in some cases where the g b 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.520 I came in to assist and they took leads on 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.840 certain part of the cases. I kept leads on certain 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:37.520 part of the cases, and it was just kind of 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.440 communicated between us to keep everything on the same page, 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.360 make sure that we knew where each other was going. 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.120 But the state agency comes in as a request from 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.320 that sheriff to come in and head up the investigation. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.920 So I'm sure that there was some working together on 0:19:55.040 --> 0:20:00.440 the case after fifteen years, what would you expect that 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.960 an investigator, whether it's the sheriff's officer or the gb I, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.840 what would you expect them to be doing other than 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.199 waiting around for hopefully for some phone call. There are 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.000 a number of answers that I would want to gain 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.639 for myself through this investigation if I were assigned the 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.719 case today, And I would think that any investigator who 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:26.240 picks this case up and begins a thorough, methodical review 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.679 of the case would come across some of the same thoughts. 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.080 There are any number of things that that may have 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.120 been done back in the day with say cell phone records, 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:41.800 home phone records, the difference back then and I don't 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.639 know whether they got any cell tower information. Today we 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.760 can get cell sites and it's a very very minimized 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.439 area and attracts every tower that you hit. There are 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.840 a lot more towers now. In two thousand two, you 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.639 were looking at a very very different potential with cell phones. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.280 They were gonna exist, but you only hit market areas 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.520 of towers. There were probably three in the state of Georgia, 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.480 so North Georgia, Brown Dalton and Atlanta and down near 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.000 Tifton or Videlli, and there may have been three market 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.840 areas for cell phones, So I don't know how much 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.200 research was done on those phones and the numbers that 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.359 were calling them talking to them, but that's something I 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.320 would want to know. I would want to know who 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.520 the biological father of this unborn infant was, and I 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.480 would want to talk to him and find out where 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.400 he was at that night. I would want to talk 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.680 to her family, the surviving family, and see what she 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.240 had been talking about about her relationship with the biological 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.320 father of this unborn baby. That would be my first 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.359 thought that comes to mind in my first area that 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.200 I wouldn't want to focus on. Back in uh the 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.480 early days, when I first started working murder cases, back 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.000 in the early nineties, there were a lot more domestic murders, 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:02.680 and then crime trends have changed. Drugs have changed, gangs 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.040 are more and so there is more stranger on stranger crime. 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:08.720 But when you're looking at a situation where you have 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:13.600 three people a man, a wife, and a child in 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.639 a house who were all murdered and then there was 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.360 an attempt to cover the evidence, then you you want 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:26.840 to focus on somebody that's known to those people, absolutely absolutely, 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.000 because if this is a stranger on stranger crime, why 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.080 would they try to burn the evidence. That makes no sense. 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.440 They're going to commit the crime and leave. I want 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.879 to know if there is any attempt to ransack the place, 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.040 if there's anything of value missing. Sometimes that's hard to 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.280 see in a fire scene, but my understanding from a 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.600 couple of articles I read that their vehicles was there 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.760 and there was nothing obvious that had been taken from 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.760 the house. So I've got to look at at a 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.880 domestic situation. You've got three people that are all at home. 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.280 It had to have occurred late at night because the 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.520 fire was seen at what three thirty in the morning, 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.240 So you're probably looking at a midnight crime time when 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:05.840 all the parties were known to be at home by 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.480 someone who knows them well and intends to take their lives. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:12.680 So I'm looking at somebody close. I'm looking at somebody 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.320 if if these people were awake at the time they 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:18.400 were shot and looked in the eyes of the killer, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.840 they knew exactly who it was. How helpful is it 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.600 for an investigator, though, to be aware of a motive 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.600 for a crime when it comes to helping solve that crime. 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:33.119 It directs you. Identifying a motive directs your investigation. You're right, 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:35.840 it doesn't have to be proven by prosecution in the court. 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.520 That's not a requirement under the law. But when there 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:42.159 is a motive, you separate out who probably did a 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.320 crime compared to who probably didn't. Greed is an underlying 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:48.879 cause nearly every time, whether it's a drug murder, an 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:52.879 armed robbery murder, a domestic murder because somebody. There was 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:55.160 a case in Gwinette not long ago where a man 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:59.200