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Speaker 1: All right, hello and welcome to another episode of Wide

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Speaker 1: Open with Ashland Harris. Today, I am so excited to

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Speaker 1: be talking to Yale professor, scientist, podcaster and happiness expert

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Speaker 1: doctor Lori Santos. Doctor Santos, Welcome to the show. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being here. What a important time

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: It's so good to meet you, be here with you.

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Speaker 2: You are the guru everyone talks about you. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's

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Speaker 3: an honor. You know.

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Speaker 1: Wide Open means a lot of things in life, whether

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Speaker 1: it's sport, whether it's your personal journey, whether you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just about being honest and vulnerable in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. And what a better conversation to really just

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Speaker 1: dive into who you are. I'm just curious to start

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Speaker 1: the show by saying, who are you? How do you

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Speaker 1: show up in the world outside of what you do,

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Speaker 1: because that's a big important factor of this show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, I think you know one of you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons I study happiness and study well

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Speaker 3: being is that, like I'm curious about it in my

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Speaker 3: own life, right, you know, like this is something that

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Speaker 3: you know, I occasionally struggle with a lot. You know,

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Speaker 3: I got really interested in the science of happiness in

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Speaker 3: part because I was seeing such mental health issues in

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Speaker 3: my college students, right, I mean right now. Nationally, more

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Speaker 3: than forty percent of college students report being too depressed

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Speaker 3: a function. Over sixty percent say that they're overwhelmingly anxious,

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Speaker 3: like our students are struggling. But the reason I really

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Speaker 3: got into this was that I was noticing some of

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Speaker 3: the same patterns in myself. You know, I wasn't experiencing

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Speaker 3: suicidality or like clinical depression, but I was just watching

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Speaker 3: like stress and overwhelm just take the joy out of

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Speaker 3: the stuff that I was experiencing in life. And I

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Speaker 3: just thought, you know, I need to teach my student

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Speaker 3: skills to deal with this stuff, but I also need

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Speaker 3: to learn these skills for myself. And so part of

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Speaker 3: my journey that like sounds scientific and sounds nerdy and

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Speaker 3: the guruy and whatever, is really a journey to kind

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Speaker 3: of help myself and try to learn from myself what

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Speaker 3: are the things that really matter in life.

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Speaker 1: And it's such an important thing to talk about because

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Speaker 1: everyone just expects it. Everyone just expects us to be happy,

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Speaker 1: even though we live in.

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Speaker 2: This really complex culture and.

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Speaker 1: World where things are very different than they used to be.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm curious though, what got you here? Before

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Speaker 1: we dive into the incredible work you do as a

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Speaker 1: scientist professor.

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Speaker 2: What got you here?

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Speaker 1: What was the driving factor to say, this is what

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Speaker 1: I want to do, This matters, and this will change

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Speaker 1: the landscape of how people are on the pursuit of happiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, for me, it started you know my little

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Speaker 3: girl you know career path was like I think I

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Speaker 3: was always a psychologist at heart. I was always like

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Speaker 3: curious about people, especially curious about adults. I was like

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Speaker 3: the little kid that the parents would be like, get

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Speaker 3: out of here, go play with your friends, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: stop paying attention to us. So I think I was

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Speaker 3: sort of fascinated by human nature, like ever since I

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Speaker 3: was a little kid, And so you know that naturally

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Speaker 3: drew me. And it's like a nerdy academic to study psychology.

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Speaker 3: When I first started, I was really interested in this

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Speaker 3: question about what makes the human mind special? And why

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Speaker 3: are you and I here having a podcast where we

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Speaker 3: talk about going wide open and know other you know,

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Speaker 3: chimpanzee or amiba is doing the same thing, right, like,

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Speaker 3: why are we on the only species that gets to

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Speaker 3: do this fun stuff? And so I spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of my time studying animals trying to figure out what

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Speaker 3: makes humans unique. I work with this kind of strange

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Speaker 3: population of monkeys that lives on an island off the

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Speaker 3: coast of Puerto Rico, studying them and comparing them with humans.

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Speaker 3: I just spent a lot of time like studying these

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Speaker 3: very Ivory Tower questions, but it was really interacting with

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Speaker 3: my students where I started to realize how how many

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Speaker 3: young people are struggling that I thought, you know, my

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Speaker 3: field of psychology might have some answers for this stuff.

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Speaker 3: I started to realize that, like, you know, the skills

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Speaker 3: that people were studying in this field of positive psychology,

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Speaker 3: those are the kinds of things that like everybody should

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Speaker 3: learn about. And so I think my transition happened from

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Speaker 3: kind of being more of like an Ivory Tower professor

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Speaker 3: to thinking about, like, Okay, how can we translate these

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Speaker 3: skills into like easy ways that people can use this stuff.

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Speaker 3: How can we communicate this stuff outside the university so

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Speaker 3: that everybody who's struggling in this world, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: which especially in the modern day is so tough. How

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Speaker 3: can we give everybody these tools?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: And I love that.

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Speaker 1: And you know what I love so much about who

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Speaker 1: you are and how you show up and how you've

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Speaker 1: dedicated your life to this work.

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Speaker 2: Is you make it really digestible.

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Speaker 1: You make it easy to understand for everyday people wanting

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Speaker 1: the same thing, joy and happiness. And I'm curious with that.

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Speaker 1: Is there a difference between joy and happyiness?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think you know.

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Speaker 3: One of the things, one of the things we have

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Speaker 3: to start with when we develop this science of happiness

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Speaker 3: is like to get some definitions on the table. So

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Speaker 3: let's first like talk about how scientists define happiness, because

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Speaker 3: it tends to be a little bit different, I think,

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Speaker 3: than how lay people think about happiness. So scientists divine

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Speaker 3: happiness as this sense of being happy in your life

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Speaker 3: and being happy with your life. So let's break that down.

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Speaker 3: So being happy in your life is sort of the

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Speaker 3: extent to which you have lots of positive emotions and

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Speaker 3: have a decent ratio between your positive emotions and your

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Speaker 3: negative emotions. It doesn't mean happiness, doesn't mean having no

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Speaker 3: negative emotions. I think we'll talk about this the negative

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Speaker 3: emotions are normative. We don't want to get into toxic positivity,

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Speaker 3: like we want them to be there, but ideally you

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Speaker 3: balance them out with a set of good emotions. Right.

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Speaker 3: Being happy with your life is just your sense that

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Speaker 3: like things feel good, You're satisfied with your life, you

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Speaker 3: have a sense of meaning and purpose. You kind of

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Speaker 3: think your life is going well. So scientists call this

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Speaker 3: a kind of affective or emotional part of happiness, kind

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Speaker 3: of cognitive or sort of thinking part of happiness. Now

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Speaker 3: we get to joy, and how that's different. I would

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Speaker 3: say that joy is sort of an emotional state, kind

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Speaker 3: of that being happy in your life part that so

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Speaker 3: many of us need to experience. Right, So it's kind

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Speaker 3: of one component of being happy. But what scientists would

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Speaker 3: think about it differently. And so the goal of all

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Speaker 3: the work that I do is to figure out, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what are some tips of strategies behavior as mindsets that

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Speaker 3: we can engage in to make us a little bit

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Speaker 3: more happy in our lives and hopefully a little bit

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Speaker 3: more happy with our lives too.

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Speaker 1: I love that, and you know I'm thinking in real

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Speaker 1: time and why this is this conversation is so valuable

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Speaker 1: for me personally as you know you might know, I

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Speaker 1: am a newly retired professional athlete.

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Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to be asked to speak.

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Speaker 1: At the Wellness Oasis with Deepak Chopra and Art Basle.

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Speaker 2: And what my topic on stage was was about joy.

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Speaker 1: And happiness and in the landscape, the current landscape, you know,

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Speaker 1: how do we show up and choose joy and happiness?

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Speaker 1: And I got really candid and I got really open

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Speaker 1: because I think faking joy and happiness is really toxic.

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Speaker 2: And I got.

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Speaker 1: Really vulnerable, and I like really got wide open in

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Speaker 1: front of a lot of people, and I said, happiness

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Speaker 1: is really difficult and joy is really difficult for me

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Speaker 1: personally as a professional athlete because of my job, because

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Speaker 1: of the expectation of my job.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happiness is.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what joy is because if I wasn't suffering,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't doing my job. And it really like gave

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Speaker 1: me whiplash in a lot of ways. And I left

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Speaker 1: that and I was like, Wow, what does happiness mean

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Speaker 1: to me? Did I even enjoy my career?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know, I win a world championship. Great? Did that

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Speaker 2: check the box?

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Speaker 1: I don't even sit in it to enjoy it and

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Speaker 1: the journey, the hard work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. This this, this is a bias that psychologists called

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Speaker 3: the arrival fallacy, where you when we're kind of planning

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Speaker 3: for something, we kind of get in our head, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to get that national championship and that'll be it.

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Speaker 3: I'll kind of leave like halfway ever after when I

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Speaker 3: arrive at that point, I'll be good. But then we

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Speaker 3: get there, and what the research shows is it's never

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Speaker 3: doesn't make us as happy as we think, and it

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Speaker 3: doesn't make us as happy for as long as we think,

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Speaker 3: And then I think we're kind of like it's that

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Speaker 3: whiplash you talked about about, Like now I'm blindside. What's

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Speaker 3: the next thing. Well, I guess I need to get

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Speaker 3: an international championship, or I need to win the next one,

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Speaker 3: or I need to like you know, be MVP or

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Speaker 3: whatever it is. We just like immediately jump on to

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Speaker 3: the next carot. And I think that, you know, like

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Speaker 3: for you, as professional athlete, those carrots were you know,

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Speaker 3: accolades in your sport. I think for other people it

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Speaker 3: can be money, it can be trying to find the

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Speaker 3: perfect relationship, you know, getting married, getting that next promotion

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Speaker 3: at work. I think so many of us fall prey

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Speaker 3: to this arrival fallacy where we're not enjoying the journey

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Speaker 3: at all. We just have this kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: this carrot in the future in our minds, and we

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Speaker 3: chase there. But even in the rare cases where we

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Speaker 3: get it, you know, when we achieve the excellence we wanted,

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Speaker 3: we're not satisfied with that. We just move on to

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Speaker 3: the next hurdle.

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Speaker 1: And I unfortunately think our culture now has really affected our.

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Speaker 2: Ability to be present.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talk about social media, you talk about

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Speaker 1: you know, these kids at a very early age. Just

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Speaker 1: like you said, whether it's athletics or academic, these kids

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Speaker 1: are being professionalized at such a young age. Like when

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Speaker 1: I grew up playing, I played everything like I When

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Speaker 1: I think about my child childhood, I do think about happiness,

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Speaker 1: and I do think about joy because I didn't have

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Speaker 1: the expectation of being the greatest, you know, to win

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Speaker 1: these championships, to pave the way for these all these

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Speaker 1: young women looking up you know, to our team and

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Speaker 1: us as athletes and individuals like I just don't see

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Speaker 1: kids playing outside like I did as as a young child.

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Speaker 1: Has this really affected our children and how they see

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Speaker 1: themselves and how they view happiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. A former Stanford dean has christened this

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Speaker 3: term cages of enrichment. Right. The idea is like, you know,

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Speaker 3: you want to give your kid, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: access to the best like soccer team, so they can

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Speaker 3: play and get good at it. But because all of

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Speaker 3: these kinds of things that we're doing to help kids

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Speaker 3: feel like there's kind of pre professional that they're kind

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Speaker 3: of very goal oriented, that you have to kind of

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Speaker 3: get to the point and be excellent all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's almost like a cage. Like, yeah, they're getting this

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Speaker 3: sort of enrichment, but they're sort of trapped in it, right,

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Speaker 3: And I think that you're exactly right that this kind

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Speaker 3: of thing is happening more and more and more from

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Speaker 3: athletics to you know, academics. I mean, I talk to

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Speaker 3: so many of my student athletes who will say things

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Speaker 3: like you, like you kind of think in this moment

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Speaker 3: of like sort of sharing a deep dark secret of

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Speaker 3: like I hate my sport. I hate it. I just

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Speaker 3: don't want to do it anymore. And it's so incredible

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Speaker 3: that these students who dedicated so much time to being

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Speaker 3: excellent this thing, you know, hate this thing that they've

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Speaker 3: become excellent at. And I just think that's just such

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Speaker 3: an indictment of our culture right now, and in some

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Speaker 3: ways an indictment of parenting. I think parents sometimes get

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Speaker 3: a lot wrapped up in this sort of carot chasing

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Speaker 3: and really want their kids to be excellent at whatever

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Speaker 3: they're doing. And so I think parents need to step

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Speaker 3: away and ask the question, Okay, do you really want

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Speaker 3: that excellence at the cost of your kid's mental health,

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Speaker 3: at the cost of their enjoyment, at the cost of

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Speaker 3: their kind of relishing the journey along the way?

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Speaker 1: And I love that you bring that point up because

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Speaker 1: it is really important to me. And I get this

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Speaker 1: question a lot is these parents like bumba me and

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Speaker 1: is like, are like, what advice can you give my child?

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Speaker 1: Your child eight like, yes, exactly, My advice is to you.

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Speaker 1: My advice is exactly what you said. This is supposed

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Speaker 1: to be the best time of their life.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, just they should just be having fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what we know one of the things we

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Speaker 3: know about the power of fun, the power of playfulness, right,

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Speaker 3: which is often how it's defined right, which is that

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Speaker 3: you're doing something not for some extrinsic reward, like you're

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Speaker 3: trying to get a trophy, you're trying to you know,

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Speaker 3: get into a good college. You're just doing it for

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Speaker 3: the intrinsic internal enjoyment of things. Research shows that the

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Speaker 3: more we play, especially when you're young, the better we

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Speaker 3: develop stress coping strategies that just like doing things that

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Speaker 3: you enjoy can help you kind of gain resilience when

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Speaker 3: the tough stuff in life comes up, you know, not

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Speaker 3: to mention, it's also just like fun, so it makes

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Speaker 3: you feel good and gives you positive emotions. And I

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Speaker 3: think you're right. I think we really have moved away

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Speaker 3: from fun. And it kind of raises a question of, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, Okay, if you're kind of a person like

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Speaker 3: you who's been doing this for so long, how do

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Speaker 3: you step out of it? How do you get back

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Speaker 3: to what researchers call a journey mindset where you're kind

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Speaker 3: of not waiting for the arrival but sort of enjoying

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Speaker 3: the journey along the way. How do you fight back

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Speaker 3: against these cultural tendencies?

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Speaker 2: Oh, and I love that. Stay tuned.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this, you know, as I

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Speaker 1: shared with you about a very humbling moment for me

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Speaker 1: now trying to understand my identity outside of sport. I

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Speaker 1: think that conversation of joy and happiness really split me

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Speaker 1: wide open. And I ask every person on this podcast

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Speaker 1: show that you know, what was the defining moment in

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Speaker 1: your life that really split you wide open, that really changed.

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Speaker 2: Everything for you, that made you sit.

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Speaker 1: Back and be like, oh, like this is going to

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Speaker 1: make or break me.

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Speaker 2: What was that moment for you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I think it came a little bit after

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Speaker 3: I sort of dove into this field of the science

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Speaker 3: of happiness. As I mentioned, I was working really closely

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Speaker 3: with these students. I was actually living with them on

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Speaker 3: campus in this role as a head of college on campus.

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Speaker 3: This is this kind of weird role at Yale where

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Speaker 3: you're like, as a faculty member, you live with students

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Speaker 3: and eat with them in the dining hall and kind

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Speaker 3: of you're just like in student life much more closely.

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Speaker 3: And that was where I started to see really this

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Speaker 3: college student mental health crisis up close and personal. Right.

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Speaker 3: So I developed this new class that idea. As I'm

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Speaker 3: teaching students all these great strategies, you know, my class

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Speaker 3: went a little bit viral because everybody pays attention to

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Speaker 3: what's happening at Yale, and I think there was this

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Speaker 3: question about, like, oh my gosh, these kids who are

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Speaker 3: nineteen and at Yale University, if they are all desperate

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Speaker 3: to take a class on happiness, like, you know, what

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Speaker 3: about the rest of us? You know, So there's news articles,

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Speaker 3: there's I started my podcast, which came soon after that,

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Speaker 3: and juggling being a professor, being ahead of college, being

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Speaker 3: a podcast host, being an expert and a speaker on happiness.

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Speaker 3: And that was when the pandemic hit, and you know,

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Speaker 3: there was a lot more you know, need for folks

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Speaker 3: who are interested in science. I want to talk, and honestly,

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Speaker 3: I just got really burned out, especially the part about

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Speaker 3: running this college on campus when we had kind of

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Speaker 3: unceremoniously kicked everyone out for COVID. It was just really hard,

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Speaker 3: and I just started to notice all the kind of

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Speaker 3: clinical signs of burnout, you know, the one we think about,

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Speaker 3: which is a sense of emotional exhaustion. But it's not

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Speaker 3: like the usual physical exhaustion. It's like even if you

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Speaker 3: take a break, you just kind of can't even you're

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Speaker 3: just emotionally not able to keep doing it. That's sort

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Speaker 3: of clinical sign number one. Clinical sign number two is

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Speaker 3: what folks call depersonalization, but it's really a sense of cynicism.

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Speaker 3: It's just like everybody is getting on your last nerve, right,

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Speaker 3: you just start of interpret everyone around you's intentions as bad.

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Speaker 3: And I knowed this in a kind of really embarrassing

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Speaker 3: moment that I've talked about before, but it still kind

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Speaker 3: of strikes me when I talk about it. As a

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Speaker 3: head of college, you often get, you know, emergency situations

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Speaker 3: from students who might need, you know, finances or need something.

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Speaker 3: And I got an email from a student that I

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Speaker 3: was really close with who desperately needed a root canal. Right,

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Speaker 3: his tooth was all messed up. He needed some money

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Speaker 3: for a root canal. And instead of what I hope

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Speaker 3: would be my usual reaction of just compassion, like oh,

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Speaker 3: this poor kid, he's in the middle of midterms and

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Speaker 3: he you know, so sucks, you know, my immediate reaction

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, I have to send another damn email.

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Speaker 3: And I was like WHOA, Like that is something's wrong there?

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Speaker 3: Like I ha, do you to kind of think about this,

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Speaker 3: you know? And so that was clinical sign number two.

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Speaker 3: Of my burnout and then clinical sign number three is

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Speaker 3: that you experience what what researchers call a sense of

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Speaker 3: personal ineffectiveness, which is this idea that like, even if

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Speaker 3: I was doing my job perfectly, even if I was

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Speaker 3: hitting every mark, every deadline, it still wouldn't matter. It

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Speaker 3: still would kind of feel meaningless. And that was really

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Speaker 3: happening during COVID, where I'm like, what are we even

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Speaker 3: you know, what are we even doing? Like running a

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Speaker 3: college where everyone's like on screens and zooms and there's

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Speaker 3: no athletics, right, there's no music, there's no anything happening

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Speaker 3: on campus, and so it was really it was really

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Speaker 3: that moment, you know, when I got that email and

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Speaker 3: had that reaction that I was like, I have to

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Speaker 3: make change, Like I am not living up to all

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Speaker 3: this stuff that I'm teaching other people, and so I

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Speaker 3: stepped away from my role as a head of college.

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Speaker 3: I took a like an unpaid year leave from Yale.

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Speaker 3: I really tried to get more in touch with kind

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Speaker 3: of what I was doing wrong in the spots where

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Speaker 3: I wasn't following my own advice. And that was really transformative, right,

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Speaker 3: I think I got back into social connection. I developed

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Speaker 3: some better self talk strategies to give myself, you know,

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Speaker 3: a little self compassion despite being a kind of perfectionist

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Speaker 3: in my own ways. I think it was really important.

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Speaker 3: It was an important realization and it's been a journey

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Speaker 3: since then for.

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Speaker 1: Me, and I'm sure it took a lot to get

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Speaker 1: to the place of understanding what burnout actually is and

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Speaker 1: having a enough like agency over your own mental health

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Speaker 1: and well being to say I need to put myself first,

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Speaker 1: which you know, a lot of people don't understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're themselves enough or don't have the ability to take

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Speaker 1: a step back to say, hmm, I'm I'm heading into

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Speaker 1: this place and I really need a reset. Y.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think another thing is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: we mentioned a little bit negative emotions before. I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, especially people kind of type A folks who

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Speaker 3: push themselves. I throw professional athletes into this category, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, with all you talked about suffering, it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like whenever you experience a negative emotion, it could

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Speaker 3: be like inconvenient, like, oh, that sense of overwhelm I'm

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Speaker 3: feeling right now, that sense of burnout. Don't have time

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Speaker 3: for that on this random Tuesday. I'm going to push

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Speaker 3: that away, right, And I think what I came to

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Speaker 3: realize is that, you know, our negative emotions are kind

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Speaker 3: of like the dash or light in our car. You know,

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Speaker 3: if your tire light goes on or your engine light

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Speaker 3: goes on, that's inconvenient. You might not be able to

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Speaker 3: pull over right at that second to deal with this.

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Speaker 3: But like, unless you deal with it soon and take

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Speaker 3: it seriously, you know your car is going to get

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Speaker 3: much more messed up. And I think our bodies and

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Speaker 3: our minds wind up getting much more messed up when

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Speaker 3: we're not listening to our negative emotions, because they're like

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Speaker 3: an alert signal. Right. If we're experiencing loneliness, that's telling

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Speaker 3: you something important about you need a little bit more

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Speaker 3: social connection. If you're experiencing a sense of overwhelm at

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Speaker 3: work or burnout, that's a really important signal that you've

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Speaker 3: got to take something off your plate. If you're experiencing

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Speaker 3: sometimes resistance, you know, this is the thing. I think

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Speaker 3: my students and my student athletes are feeling like I

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Speaker 3: hate my sport. I'm like that is an honest signal

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Speaker 3: that something about this relationship and this dynamic and your

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Speaker 3: values have to change, right, And so I think we

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Speaker 3: ignore those negative emotions at our peril, even if they're

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Speaker 3: ones that are really inconvenient. That suggests, you know, a big,

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Speaker 3: wide open change needs to come. We still need to

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Speaker 3: pay attention to those absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So what would you say is like the biggest misconception

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Speaker 2: about happiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about one of them, right, which is

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Speaker 3: this idea that happiness is really about no negative emotions. Right,

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Speaker 3: that's toxic positivity. That's just wrong. A rich, good life

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Speaker 3: is going to include negative emotions because they're your signal

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Speaker 3: for like, you know what you really need to kind

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Speaker 3: of experience more joy and be more satisfied with your life.

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Speaker 3: I think a different misconception is that happiness is all

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Speaker 3: about your circumstances, right, It's what you achieve in life.

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Speaker 3: It's your money, it's your accolades, it's you know, you

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Speaker 3: got that national championship. But those things just don't impact

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Speaker 3: our happiness for as long or for as much as

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Speaker 3: we even think. And so I think that's honestly, the

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Speaker 3: biggest misconception I see in my students is like I

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Speaker 3: have to change something in my life or get something

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Speaker 3: or earn something or win something to feel happy, and

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Speaker 3: study after study just shows that's not it.

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Speaker 1: So if trust me, I live this, and I just like,

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Speaker 1: I love your work so much, and my brain right

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Speaker 1: now is just literally doing cartwheels or jumping jacks. I

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Speaker 1: really don't know which one, but something in between. What

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Speaker 1: are like the tangible things.

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Speaker 2: That people can do.

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Speaker 1: To get to a place of happiness, Like how when

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Speaker 1: you are doing your work and you're you know, you're

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Speaker 1: talking to people like me. I'll be very honest, I

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Speaker 1: feel more at home and suffering than I do in happiness.

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Speaker 1: Not looking for like a therapy session. But I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people feel this because the journey to

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Speaker 1: happiness is like not as easy. Like people get so

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Speaker 1: comfortable and suffering and so comfortable and misery and so

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Speaker 1: at home in that space of being in the trenches.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious of what are actionable steps that we

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Speaker 1: could be taking or checking ourselves or rewiring our self

437
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 1: talk and self worth to putting one step one foot

438
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: in front of the other and really like practicing the

439
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: art of happiness.

440
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, a big step is changing your mindset, changing

441
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: yourself talk, as you mentioned, And I think there's a

442
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 3: couple of things we can start with. Right. One is

443
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: if you're kind of in the mindset of suffering and

444
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 3: that's what you gravitate towards, it'll take your mind a

445
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 3: little bit of training to notice some of the good

446
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: stuff in the world. So this has often been called

447
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: like a gratitude practice, where you try to notice the

448
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 3: things that you're grateful for. If that feels heavy, which

449
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 3: it does for some people, I like to suggest a

450
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: slightly different practice, which is to notice the delights in

451
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: the world. Gratitude can feel really heavy of like, oh

452
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: my gosh, I have so much privilege. It kind of

453
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 3: feels overwhelming. But delights are like, oh my gosh, you know,

454
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 3: my morning coffee cup. You know, when I was walking

455
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 3: over here to get set up for the podcast, there

456
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 3: was just like somebody driving by, like black some like

457
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: Motley Crue. And also that's like a little delight, you know,

458
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 3: it's a little yeah. And so it's like delights are

459
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 3: great because they're they're just tiny, you know, They're just

460
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: these moments where your heart's like, oh, you know, like warm,

461
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 3: happy feelings, right, And the act of noticing them is

462
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like it, but what you're really doing

463
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 3: is practicing over time, right, just like you do you know,

464
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 3: sprints or I don't know, like you know, kicking this.

465
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 3: I was never a soccer player, I mess up all

466
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 3: my soccer metaphors, right, But like, just like you do

467
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: that kind of practice and athletics, the act of noticing

468
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 3: delights makes it easier for your brain to notice them, right.

469
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: You're kind of retraining what your mind naturally pays attention to.

470
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 3: So if your brain is like on the lookout for

471
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 3: things that you're grateful for, things that are cool, things

472
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: that are delightful, you'll kind of train away what's often

473
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 3: called a negativity bias. Our mind's just evolutionarily naturally notice

474
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: the negative stuff, but you can kind of train that

475
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 3: away with a little bit of practice. And so that's

476
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: kind of finding delights, finding gratitude. I think that can

477
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: be a a big mindset shift for a lot of us.

478
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: Another one that I think sounds like, you know, perfectionists

479
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: or folks who are kind of their whole career and

480
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 3: how they approach things we're suffering. I think a big

481
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: mindset shift there that can really help is to develop

482
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: a little bit of self compassion, which sounds like wooy

483
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 3: and whatever, but really it's just the practice of talking

484
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: to yourself and giving yourself the benefit of the doubt,

485
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: just like you would with a good friend or someone

486
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: you really cared about. And so Kristinneff, who's a researcher

487
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: at UTI Austin, does a lot of great work on

488
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 3: self compassion, and she sort of defines it as having

489
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: these three steps. One is sort of mindfulness, like I'm

490
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: struggling right now, this sucks right now, I'm feeling really overwhelmed.

491
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 3: Right now, you sort of notice where you are and

492
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: what could be tough. You kind of mindfully notice that.

493
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 3: The second step is what she calls calmon humanity, which

494
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: is especially hard for the perfectionists, but you know, practice

495
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: you get good at it. Common humanity is just and

496
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: that makes sense that I'm overwhelmed and struggling because I'm

497
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: just human. I'm not like a superhuman robot. I'm not

498
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: like the perfect you that's never going to make a mistake.

499
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm actually human, and it makes sense that I'm going

500
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 3: through this and it's a normative experience. I'm not alone,

501
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 3: right That's a common humanity step. And then the final

502
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,239
Speaker 3: step is what she calls self kindness. This is kind

503
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: of treating yourself like you treat a friend. You say,

504
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: you know, what do I need right now? What can

505
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 3: I take off my plate? Right? And this idea of

506
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 3: treating yourself like you treat a friend, I think is

507
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: a helpful way to frame self compassion for perfectionists, because

508
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: I think sometimes perfectionists confuse self compassion with self indulgence.

509
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: They think that being nice to yourself is like just

510
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: letting yourself off the hook, just screwing up. But really,

511
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: what self compassion is, it's like being a really good coach,

512
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: like a really empathic coach. Like if you are actively

513
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 3: screwing up, your coach wouldn't be like, that's fine, I'll

514
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: just pretend it's okay, but they would be like, hey,

515
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 3: what is up? What is going on? Can we talk

516
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: about this and like figure it out? A good empathic

517
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: coach would go into like problem solving mode but not

518
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: accusing mode, right. And that's the sort of attitude you

519
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 3: bring to yourself. It's not like you're can of letting

520
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: yourself off the hook if you're really screwing up, but

521
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 3: you come in there with like a little bit of

522
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 3: compassion and problem solving rather than just like beating yourself

523
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 3: up all the time, and self compassion can be an

524
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: incredibly powerful mindset. Research shows that it allows you to

525
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: treat your future self better. Suit eat healthier, you exercise

526
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 3: more when you're a little bit more self compassionate. If

527
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: you have a big project, you're less likely to procrastinate

528
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: because you're not beating yourself up, So it makes it

529
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 3: easier to do hard things. And self compassion research shows

530
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 3: can actually help even in just really extreme situations of suffering,

531
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: like trauma. Kristin has done work with Afghan and Iraqi

532
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 3: veterans who've been in combat, and she founds that teaching

533
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 3: them these self compassion strategies mean they get lower rates

534
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: of PTSD post traumatic stress disorder even going through trauma.

535
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like it's like a really good strategy,

536
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 3: but is one that can be really hard for perfectionists,

537
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 3: so it too kind of takes a little bit of

538
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 3: time and practice to get used to.

539
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think what it boils down to is

540
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: just giving yourself grace, which I'm learning in real time.

541
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: And I say this all the time. You know, there's

542
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: so many people that have opinions of me and my

543
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: performance always, you know, the days of making a mistake

544
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and walking off the field and not thousands, if not

545
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: millions of people watching it and having an opinion on it.

546
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: It's been a weird process growing up in a space

547
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: of social media with people having opinions of you, and

548
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: then you internalize the way they see you. And it's

549
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: just this really wild spiral that I had to go

550
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: through as a as a performer, player, perfectionist, all these things.

551
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: And what I did know is no one was harder

552
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: on me than me, and I really had to learn grace.

553
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: I had to really humanize myself a lot, because I

554
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: am not a perfect person. I am not a perfect athlete,

555
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: and I am going to make mistakes all the time.

556
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: I really hold on to that grace part.

557
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: I really hold on to understanding boundaries, which I'm learning

558
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: to set now, because for every five hundred beautiful, nice

559
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: comments that people think I'm so lovely and I'm doing

560
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: great work and they're so encouraging, the two, three, four,

561
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: five comments that absolutely destroy me I weirdly hold on

562
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: to completely.

563
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: I mean, that is the negativity bias, right Like, your

564
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: brain can see hundreds and hundreds of nice things and

565
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 3: the one terrible thing. It's like, oh, let me lock

566
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: onto that. We do the same thing with comparison, right.

567
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: You know, you can be a better player than you are,

568
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: a better player than literally billions of other people on

569
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: the planet, but the one or two players that are

570
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: better than you, like that will stick in your mind,

571
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: and whatever your comparison is at the time, your brain

572
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: will lock onto the one that makes you feel worse

573
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: about yourself. I was doing I was doing some training

574
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: with professional basketball players and I was showing the power

575
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: like how bad our brains are at comparison. And I

576
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: was asking them like, you know, what, what's the comparison

577
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: point for like, you know, free throws? And I was like, oh,

578
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: that's Steph Curry, you know, because he's so good at it.

579
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I was like, what's the comparison point for

580
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know how much people are earning

581
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: at the time. Stuff was making a lot and they're like, oh, yeah,

582
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: Steph Curry again. And I was like, Okay, what's the

583
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 3: comparison point for height? And they're like, well, that's not

584
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: Steph Curry, you know, because he's kind of short. He's like,

585
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: that's like taco fail. He's like really tall. I'm like

586
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 3: Why did your brain let stuff off the hook for

587
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: that one? Why didn't it like allow you to feel

588
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: better because you're taller than him. It's like, that's just

589
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: not how brains work, you know. And so if it's

590
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: your performance at work, you know, you're gonna pick the

591
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 3: highest performer at work. If it's your look, she'll pick

592
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: someone off social media.

593
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: Right.

594
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 3: It's like whatever you are feeling is relevant to your

595
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 3: identity at the time, you tend to pick comparison points

596
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: that make you look the worst possible, right, And because

597
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: you know, know, none of us are perfect, there's gonna

598
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: always be some dimension on which we're not, you know,

599
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: the best ever in the history of universe, and that's

600
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: just going to make us feel kind of crappy. There's

601
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: a very famous study on this, on this kind of

602
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: form of comparison that was done actually with athletes, So

603
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: it was with Olympic athletes on the metal stand, just

604
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: asking kind of who's happiest, and of course you predict,

605
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 3: like you know, when you win a gold medal, you're

606
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: going to be the most happy. It's the gold medalists

607
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 3: who are the most happy, and they are happy. But interestingly,

608
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: if you look at the silver medalists, they're not kind

609
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: of second happiest. They're actually showing emotions on the metal

610
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: stand that look like contempt, deep sadness, grief. Right, and

611
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: you're like, oh my gosh, you're second best in the world.

612
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: You're taking home a metal for your country. Why do

613
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 3: you feel so crappy? Well, they feel crappy in part

614
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: because of this comparison. There's a really salient thing they

615
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: didn't get, which is the gold medal. But what's interestingly

616
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 3: is if you look at if you look at bronze medalists,

617
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 3: you might predict that they'd be experiencing even more contempt

618
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: and grief than the silver medalists, but not so. There's

619
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: sailing comparison isn't gold. You know, they weren't gonna you know,

620
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: they're multiple points away or multiple seconds away or whatever,

621
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: and whatever sport they're in. Their sailing comparison is like,

622
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, if I was just a little bit worse,

623
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: I wouldn't get any metal at all. And so it

624
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: turns out that if you look at on the stand,

625
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: the bronze medalists on average are like smiling, more like

626
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: feeling this relief. They're feeling ecstatic even though objectively they

627
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: actually did worse than silver medallists, they're feeling better. And

628
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: so my joke from you know, these studies with Olympic

629
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: athletes is instead of looking for the silver lining, we

630
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: all have to look for the bronze lining, right, We

631
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: need to look at the spot where you know it

632
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: might not be as good as we are, like find

633
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: comparisons that kind of make you feel a little bit

634
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: better about your own identity.

635
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: And that is so that is I love what you

636
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: said there, and it's so important. This is wide open

637
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.

638
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

639
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: You know, in the culture of sport is that, you know,

640
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: really contradicts what we were trying to talk.

641
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: About what we're unlearning in a lot of ways, because

642
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: they teach you to suffer. They teach you.

643
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: That that's how you become the best. And now that

644
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm on the other side, I'm like, holy shit, I

645
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: have so much unlearning to do because of it and

646
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: because of how it now affects how I move in

647
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: the real world.

648
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: How how does that.

649
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: Make you think based on all the studies you've done,

650
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: based on your life commitment in this you know, happiness

651
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: section of psychology. Like I just feel now that I

652
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: think back on my younger self, I'm like, oh my gosh,

653
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: no wonder.

654
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: I can't sleep. I always think someone's working hard than me.

655
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: No wonder.

656
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: I have this weird complex that nothing is ever enough,

657
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: that how I do anything is how I do everything,

658
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: and like, I run these things through my head because

659
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm so branded to do so, and it really does

660
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: affect my overall well being and happiness and how I

661
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: show up for my friends, my work, my.

662
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: Family, my kids.

663
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think about this, because it

664
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: is a part of our culture as athletes to be

665
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: brainwashed to suffer because that's what makes us great.

666
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think this is I mean, that's a theory, right,

667
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: that what makes athletes great is that you have to

668
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: force them to suffer. And we have this kind of

669
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: theory in a lot of performance careers and domains.

670
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: Right.

671
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: I did some work with retired Navy seals, you know,

672
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: and they have similar kinds of phrases eat the pain, right.

673
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, things right. But it raises a question of like,

674
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: is that the best way to perform?

675
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: Right?

676
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: It turns out that if you look at performance data

677
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: you often find is that people's overall levels of mental

678
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: health correlate with their performance in all kinds of different domains,

679
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: including athletics. Right. I think we have this assumption that like,

680
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 3: you know, suffer suffer, suffer, no pain, no gain, push

681
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: through it is the right move. But it might be

682
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 3: that like recognizing your own boundaries, recognizing your limitations, you know,

683
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 3: that might actually make athletes who not only perform really well,

684
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: but might have longevity in the sport part because they

685
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 3: continue to enjoy it and they don't hate it. Right,

686
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: And I do think there are some athletes out here

687
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 3: there that, despite their excellence, have trained in ways that

688
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 3: are like less kind of you know, eat the pain

689
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 3: and more like self compassion. On my show, I talked

690
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 3: to the Olympic figure skater Michelle Kwan and was surprised that,

691
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 3: you know, even though she just like achieved such you know,

692
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: excellence at her sport, she kind of was able to

693
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: maintain a little bit of a journey mindset. Somehow she

694
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 3: kind of fought off all those arrival fallacy kinds of things,

695
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: and she had these lovely examples of it. You know.

696
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 3: She talked about when she would go to the Olympics.

697
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 3: Her favorite part was that she would get to skate

698
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: across the ice where they had the Olympic rings embedded in,

699
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 3: and she talked about like skating over those colors and

700
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: just trying to say, I'm just going to be present

701
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: with like, I don't care about what happens. I just

702
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: kind of want to be present with this, right. And

703
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 3: so I think somehow there are excellent athletes who've avoided

704
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 3: this suffering mindset. I think as a culture, we're not

705
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: good at that, and we push because we think that

706
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: that's the only way to become excellent. But I think

707
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 3: more and more as people see the research, they realize, actually,

708
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 3: you perform better like with self compassion. Actually you have

709
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 3: longer careers, right, longer more successful careers if you treat

710
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: yourself well. And so I hope is that my hope

711
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: is that a new generation of coaches who see these

712
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 3: real performance dat are going to say, hang on, maybe

713
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 3: we can achieve the same kind of performance in sport,

714
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 3: but do it with a little bit more compassion, like

715
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: a kind of smart way that kind of understands psychology better.

716
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: And I love that, and I wish I knew more

717
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: while I was young because I do. I agree with you.

718
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: I think if I could have found more happiness and

719
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: joy through the journey, I think I would have been

720
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: a better teammate. I think I would have been a

721
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: better human. I think I would have been a better, like,

722
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, person outside of sports too. I just I

723
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: felt that I carried that mindset in everything I did.

724
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: And you just brought up something that really.

725
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 2: Made me think.

726
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: You said something about boundaries, and I don't think we've

727
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 1: really touched on that with the landscape of social media.

728
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: You know, let's pull away a little bit outside of sport.

729
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: The current landscape of our country, new presidency, things are

730
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: bonkers right now. It's really affecting everyone overall.

731
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: Well being, mental health. As a queer woman who has

732
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 2: adopted two black children, I'm terrified most days. I got

733
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: to be really honest. How do we start setting boundaries?

734
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: How do we.

735
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: Help protect ourselves in a landscape where you know, we're

736
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: always picking this damn thing up and checking what everyone

737
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: else is doing.

738
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 2: The country's on fire.

739
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: Everything is just like whoa spiraling absolutely out of control.

740
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: And it does affect the way we move, It does

741
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: affect the way we show up, It does affect the

742
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: way we see ourselves. How do we set boundaries, like,

743
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: how do we really figure out a way to protect

744
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: our peace?

745
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I think the first step gets back to

746
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: something we spoke a little bit about before, which is

747
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 3: like mindfully noticing these negative emotions. I think it helps

748
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 3: to kind of notice what you're feeling after you're on

749
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,959
Speaker 3: your phone. Right, So, say you, you know, scroll through

750
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: Instagram or look at what the news is showing you,

751
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: and you know, at least I'm like you, like the

752
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: last New Week's wonder're having this conversation, it's been like

753
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: utter terror, utter frustration, that kind of sense of loneliness

754
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: and disconnection, just like yucky, yucky feelings. Right, But I

755
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 3: think there's a moment to take a breath and notice

756
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: those feelings, right like, because they're not you know, this

757
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 3: is what the administration is. This is kind of where

758
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: we find ourselves breath, notice and ask the question, Okay,

759
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 3: what do I need right now? How can I take

760
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: care of myself? Right? And often what you realize is

761
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: like it's not another half hour scrolling through the same

762
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 3: news feed, right, it's you know, to put the phone

763
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 3: away and go spend time with your kids, right it's

764
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: to put the phone away and just like take a

765
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: deep breath, maybe move your body around a little bit

766
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 3: so you can get some endorphins, right, Like, it's really

767
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: asking yourself what can I do to take care of myself?

768
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 3: And a very practical kind of set of strategies that

769
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: I often use that I teach my students is this

770
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: very specific meditation practice that was popularized by the meditation

771
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: teacher tar Brock. It goes by the acronym of rain

772
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: RAI in which stands for recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture.

773
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 3: And so you know, let's say you're scrolling through the

774
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 3: newsfeed and you see what's going on in the world

775
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: right now, and you just you know, that's when you say, okay,

776
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 3: do a quick rain, take a step away, recognize what

777
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: are the specific emotions I'm going through, and really try

778
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 3: to categorize them, Like this time, it's just like it's anxiety,

779
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: or it's anchor, or it's just overwhelmed, Like I just

780
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: feel like the problems of the world can't fit with

781
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: everything I have on my plate. Just kind of notice

782
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: and try to categorize what you're feeling. That's step one. Recognize.

783
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: Then you say the next one is a hard step.

784
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 3: You say, allow, just gonna allow those feelings to be

785
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: there just as they are. Right. I think this is

786
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: the spot where your training is as an athlete comes in. Right.

787
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: You're good at allowing pain or allowing things. You're gonna

788
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 3: allow these emotions and sit with them and look at them, right,

789
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 3: But you give your brain something to do while you're

790
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: doing that, And that's the eye step. Investigate. You say, Okay,

791
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: deep breath, when I'm feeling the sense of overwhelming anxiety,

792
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: where do I experience it in my body? You really

793
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 3: kind of get deep. Is it in my chest? Maybe

794
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 3: my brow is furrowed? Whatever. And the reason this step

795
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: works is, you know, there's so much work in clinical

796
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 3: psychology and clinical training that talks about how our emotions,

797
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: our cravings, they're sort of like a wave. Right when

798
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: we first start to pay attention to them, they'll kind

799
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 3: of go up, and they might feel more intense when

800
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: you're really looking at it. But if we give our

801
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 3: emotions time, they'll just sort of pass like a wave.

802
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: This is often a process that's called urge surfing, and

803
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 3: that investigates step. Let you do that because you're looking

804
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: directly at it. Like, oh, my chest, my body's fluttering,

805
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: my stomach feels gross. But you're like feeling that thing

806
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: head on, and inevitably in a couple minutes, usually like

807
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 3: three to five minutes. A lot of the science suggests

808
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: that will pass, but you don't stop there. There's one

809
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 3: last step of rain, and that's the end nurture. You say,

810
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: what can I take off my plate? What do I

811
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 3: need right now? Sometimes those answers will be inconvenient. Right,

812
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: It's like I got to ask somebody for help, right,

813
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 3: I need to, you know, cancel these meetings that feel important.

814
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 3: I need to really take a break. But kind of

815
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: give yourself that grace and kind of do that. I

816
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: think rain is a really nice way to notice the

817
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: bad things in the world, recognize and allow like we

818
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: might not be able to solve them, and that sucks.

819
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 3: But deep breath, let's feel that emotion and kind of

820
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 3: let it take its course.

821
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: And that's important what you just said, because I do

822
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: find that the times I get the most overwhelmed are

823
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: when I can't control things.

824
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot of this world I can't control.

825
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: So I think that's the spiral in me where I'm like,

826
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's when I get uncomfortable. That's when

827
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: I start crawling out of my skin. That's when it's

828
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: like I can't directly impact this, but it's affecting me

829
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: so much.

830
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: So I love that you suggest that.

831
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: And I hope you know everyone watching and listening, you know,

832
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: can take something away here because there's no question why

833
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: your class is the most popular class and Yale, what

834
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: is it.

835
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: Three hundred years something?

836
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: The work is so important and I want to first

837
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: and foremost say thank you for the way you serve

838
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 1: your community, your students, all of us. Like I love

839
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: your podcast, you know, the Happiness Lab. It's such an

840
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: important practice you've dedicated.

841
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 2: Your life to. And like, I want to end there

842
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: a little.

843
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: Bit and talk about that, because so much of what

844
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: you do is serving other people.

845
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 2: So I'm going to, you know, remove that for a second.

846
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: Like the legacy you're leaving behind through your work is

847
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 1: so beautiful, it's so powerful, and I wonder if you

848
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: ever take a step back and realize the work you've

849
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: done to bless all of these people on this pursuit

850
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: and journey of happiness, Like.

851
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: Do you think about that? What is the legacy you

852
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: want to leave behind?

853
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: Like, what what's next for you? You know, You've done so

854
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: much in this space, and I'm so grateful for your work,

855
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: and I needed to tell you that personally.

856
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's great to hear, especially coming from you.

857
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: It's nice, yeah, fans of fans, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

858
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 3: You know. I think one one great thing about the

859
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 3: work that I've done, and I think you'll see this,

860
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: you know on your podcast Wide Open, is that this

861
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: act of helping other people, sharing good stories, helping your

862
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: viewers and your listeners and winds up helping you too, right.

863
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: It really gives you a sense of meaning and purpose.

864
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: It forces you when you're sharing these kinds of ideas

865
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: and strategies to make sure you're adopting them yourself. And so,

866
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 3: you know, I'm proud of the work I've done. I

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Speaker 3: feel incredible humbled that it's helped so many people. But

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Speaker 3: I'm also just like so happy that I get to

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00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 3: do it because I get something very selfishly out of it, too, right,

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00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: I get these strategies and get the great feeling and

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00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: meaning and purpose that comes from this work.

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Speaker 1: I love it and I'm very grateful for you, and

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00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: I will continue following you. Please tell everyone the listeners

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00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: and everyone tuning in where they can.

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00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: Access your work.

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00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: Not all of us are lucky enough to go to Yale,

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00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: but the good thing is is everyone can access you

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00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: and your podcast and your work.

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00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: Please let everyone know where they can find you.

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00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, they can subscribe to the Happiness Lab, which

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00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 3: is my podcast wherever they get their podcasts. And if

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00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: you want to take a short version of the Yale

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00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 3: class that I teach, you can check it out on

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00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 3: Coursera dot org. It's called the Science of well Being

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00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: and it's really available to anyone who wants to take it.

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00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for being wide Open, thank you for being vulnerable,

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00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: and thank you for showing up today. I think this

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00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: was a really great conversation and I think a lot

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00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: of people will learn something new and take something away.

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Speaker 1: So doctor Santos, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me on the show.

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00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 2: And I hope to see you down the line.

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Speaker 1: I will definitely tell them all my athlete friends if

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00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: they haven't tuned into your work, they're missing out. So again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here this week, and we'll see

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00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: everyone next week. Wide Open with Ashland Harris is an

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00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: iHeart women's sports production.

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00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: You can find us on the iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our

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00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: producers are Carmen Borca, Coreo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.

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00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: Production assistants from Malia Agudello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,

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00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan

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Speaker 1: and Emily Rudder and I'm Your Host Ashlyn Harris