WEBVTT - 16) Is This Freedom 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:03.920 All eight episodes of To Die For are available now 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.000 to bench absolutely free, but for ad free listening and 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:12.160 exclusive bonuses, subscribe to tendorfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.200 or on Apple Podcasts. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:22.720 Warning, the following episode contains explicit language and sexual themes. 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:25.320 Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:33.600 This is a scary case. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.680 Actually tell me what you mean by that. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:46.440 This is scary because the implications are pretty profound, I think. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.120 So let's assume everything. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.880 This is Robin Drake, who spent twenty two years working 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:56.240 Russian counterintelligence for the FBI. You heard from him in 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.640 the first episode of this podcast. I've circled back to 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.400 get his thoughts from an intelligence perspective on what he's 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:03.080 heard so far. 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:09.200 Let's assume everything Aliah has said is true. That would 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:15.200 mean that this country is won by warlords. That each 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.720 one of these generals is a fieftom under themselves, and 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.600 they're all serving the greater warlord Putin, and they each 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.959 have their cadre of enforcers that are in uniform, that 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:32.800 are under state kind of control. I'm only analyzing the 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:37.320 information she provided, but they're not as a nation state 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.440 trying to counter drugs. They as warlords are going after 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:47.000 their adversaries, and if it's a general that's at the 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:48.560 top of yours, that means a general on the top 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:50.280 of another. So in other words, this to me looks 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.920 like a feudal system of a bunch of fiefdoms trying 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.280 to take out each other's supply chain and monetary structure. 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.120 That's kind of scary if you're thinking about it. 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.760 This is actually the truth of how this nation state, 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.040 a world power is supposedly being run. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:08.880 So it's either one or the other. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.760 Either she's making all us up, or this country is 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:13.760 a country of warlords. 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.800 To jolly, I'm really sorry. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:47.160 How to do jut to? This is. 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.359 Episode sixteen, chapter thirty three, down word spiral. 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:28.880 He put me into the car. I drove away, and 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:33.800 I felt like something died inside of me. I felt 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:39.720 like I just lost him forever. But I was trying 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:41.760 to tell myself, no, no, no, I will see him again, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.600 But they didn't feel like I will really see him again. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.720 Aliyah had just left the home of Vladimir, her former 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.240 target and now her ally. He was sending her to 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.720 Moscow for the time being to hide out until it 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.720 was safe. She had no idea how long that would 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.320 be and whether or when she'd hear from the general. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:03.000 She met with. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:10.400 The driver. He drove me to Moscow and he opened 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.600 their apartment for me, quite like small but very clean 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:22.000 and nice apartment. The driver brought me some food and 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:27.039 then he left, and I remember, I just I just 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.719 wanted to sleep. I think I slept like a few 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.680 days straight. 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:37.520 Up. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.719 I drank some water and I just went back to bed, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.200 and I was just sleeping, sleeping, sleeping, recovering. You know, 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:54.960 sleep was the best recovering medicine. I just wanted to 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:00.679 forget everything. I was thinking about the bladder or a lot, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.279 about what he's done for me, about Cornell, and about 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:11.400 you know, my former commander. Then I didn't go out 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:18.960 for like a few days. And then at some point 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.640 life was starting to come back to me, and I 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:28.240 was wondering what's happening outside, And I decided to go 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:34.200 out just to buy some food, buy some newspapers. It 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:40.200 was a dark time. I knew that I couldn't contact anyone, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:44.799 but I thought, if I will contact one person, wouldn't 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:45.479 be bad. 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.880 Leah decided to contact an old high school classmate of 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:51.400 hers who had moved to Moscow. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.440 I was just alone, lonely and board. 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.000 Her friend invited her to a party, and against her 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.120 better judgment, A Liah decided to go. 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.480 I knew I couldn't do it, but yet I did it. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:11.040 And I remember, like first time, for like so long, 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.560 I saw so many people in one place and it 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:20.480 was so weird. There were like access to drugs everywhere. 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.080 Despite everything she'd seen, Leah quickly found herself swept into 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.359 this culture of drugs. It wasn't because she didn't know 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.200 how they ruined lives, it was because she did. 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:40.080 And then at some point I just couldn't understand why 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:44.760 the vict just was gone in one day. It was 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:53.680 just like only one scene club, dog dancing, drugs, alcohol, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:58.760 and it just was like NonStop, and then you come 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.640 back to the reality and you cannot accept it again 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:08.600 and you just go back. I think that time I 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:16.040 felt so much guilt. I felt guilt for Vladimir, I 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:21.480 felt guilt for Sasha. I felt guilt for my father 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:32.080 that I didn't succeed in my career. I failed. The 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:36.000 feeling of guilt which was so deep inside of me 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:44.000 that I just couldn't handle it. And I just thought 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:49.480 that moment that maybe this will help me to stop 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.440 this pain when I try that. I don't understand people 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.480 when they become drug added because they have so much 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:03.080 pain inside of them, so much so they just cannot 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:10.360 handle it in a normal life. It's like too much. Everything. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.960 What Vladimir told me about the big life and the 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:20.400 big world, I didn't see it. And I was still 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.040 waiting maybe he will come and he will know what 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.120 to do, because I was completely lost completely. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.800 Unfortunately, Leah never saw Vladimir again. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:41.679 So his driver, his friend, he called me. He said, 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.280 do you know what happened? He said, like, no, I 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.040 didn't know what was happening. I stopped even reading newspapers 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.240 and I was just in another world. And I asked him, 0:08:54.400 --> 0:09:01.720 what's happening. Do you know anything about Vladimir? He said, well, 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:13.440 he said he is his dad. And for a quite 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.600 a long time, I was silenced. He's like, are you okay? 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:22.319 Are you okay? And I asked what happened how? And 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.800 he said, I don't know a lot of details, but 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.200 he was murdered and I don't know how and where. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:35.680 I just wanted to tell you, so you know, And 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.040 I said, when it's the funeral and He's like, well 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.120 it will be soon, like in a couple of days, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.440 but you can't come here. Don't even think about doing that. 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:55.439 And he switched over the phone. And I couldn't even cry. 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:57.520 You know. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.320 It was almost like the last my hope of the future, 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:08.040 the last my connection with the past. It was just 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:18.200 gone with him. I found some newspapers, but they wrote 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.760 like in the very like facts kind of thing, so 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:29.040 and so was killed at this place. That's it. And 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:35.920 I just took some drugs just to escape because I 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:43.000 felt even more guilty. I felt like, now it's time 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:52.000 for me to leave the world. I felt so disgusting 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.320 that I'm not allowed to leave. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.680 Leah soon fell sick, a combination of the psychological toll 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.600 of Vladimir's murder and the physical toll of her lifestyle. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.320 I have a very high fever. I couldn't walk. It 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:17.680 was something really bad. I thought like, this is the 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:23.640 time when I may finally die, like I felt, that's 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:31.240 so close to me. And I was thinking about my parents, 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.920 and you know what, I decided to call them. My 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:40.559 mom remembers that call still now. She sounded really sad, 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:47.760 and I said, Mom, that's me. I just wanted to 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.160 tell you that I really really love you, and I 0:11:53.360 --> 0:12:00.600 want to apologize for everything, like everything I've done, and 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:07.360 I'll just try to do my best. And he said, 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.000 oh my god, he sounds so sick, like where are 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.520 you what's going on? I said, like, tell my dad 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:20.680 that I'm really sorry for everything, and I think this 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.520 would be my last call. So I just wanted to 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.400 tell you that I love you and thank you for 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:35.319 giving me this life. That's it, and I switched over 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:41.559 the phone. I thought like, oh, this is just absolutely 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:50.840 pointless life. You know, I live a pointless life. So 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:56.080 I took the raise of blade. I didn't even like 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.520 write a letter whatever they say lo because sometimes they 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.480 write a letter, you know. I didn't do anything like that. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.000 I just took the lizard and just cut my wrist. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:18.240 I thought, okay, so now I can be free. This 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:24.439 is my freedom. Now, this is the end of my suffer, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:34.960 of my guild, of my negative experience. And at some 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:42.319 point I just fainted. I woke up. I looked at 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.079 my wrist and either I didn't do the deep cut either. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:52.160 My blood it dried so fast, so it's so blood 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.800 on the floor on my hand, but in my hand, 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.520 the blood stopped bleeding. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.079 Somewhere in the state being half awake and half asleep, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.160 half alive and half dead, Elia saw a vision that 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:10.760 to her seemed very real. 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:18.000 It was Vladimir, and I saw him sitting next to 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:22.040 my bed and he looked at me and he said, 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.760 come on, wake up, you have to go. You have 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.320 to leave. You have to go and live your life. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.200 And he told me, do you remember I gave you 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:43.840 all these numbers. Call them. They will organize for you everything. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:50.760 Call them. And he was saying it like, come on, 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:57.760 stand up, you have to go. You have bigger goals, 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:08.920 bigger mission. And he just disappeared. The next morning, when 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.520 I woke up, I found a note with all these numbers, 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:22.800 all these addresses, names everything, Switzerland, Italy, Fronts, Turkey, Greece, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.920 his friends people, He relied on them, He trust them. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.800 And I called one number and I said that I'm 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:39.000 from Vladimir, and I asked for the help, and then 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:52.720 they arranged everything. So I fly away. First country was Turkey, 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.600 and I had the time. Russian prospered, so it was 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:02.880 very convenient and easier to fly to Turkey. First. I 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.520 wanted to find the light in this dark tunnel, and 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:14.000 Vladimir showed me that light and I stopped doing drugs 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:22.880 and alcohol just like that in one day. Where I 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:27.240 am right now, it thanks to him, you know. He 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:33.200 pushed me and he didn't let me die. Seriously, I 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.320 feel this way. 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.480 While Leah was in Turkey, she discovered the fate of 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.120 her former superiors, the colonel and the commander who assaulted 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.360 her and abused her and sent her to die. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.880 So both of them, the coronel and my previous commander, 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:00.200 they got retired and it was quite quick of the 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:07.760 whole operation was finished. Usually, if you do something bad 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:13.439 while your career, but not too bad, then they just 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.800 read of you like okay, so here's your pension, here's 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:26.680 your retirement. Good luck. And it gives me understanding that 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.600 they obviously lost the income of the bribery and the 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.359 power which they had while they had high rank. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:59.119 Chapter thirty four fairy tale endings. 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:10.240 So ninth of July in two thousand and four, according 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.840 to Regno media, with the few shots to the neck 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:21.240 and had the criminal leader, which is in Russian calls 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:27.760 of started forty four years old. Vladimir Costin were shot 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.480 about eleven PM near to the preschool. 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.679 Alia Rosa is reading an article on the death of Vladimir. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.280 It's still a mystery what happened, but she believes that 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.040 his former partner and friend had something to do with it. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.480 There are a lot of unanswered questions left at the 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.280 end of Lea's story, so I asked her about a 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:57.560 few of them. In the last episode, we discussed your 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.359 meeting with the general and himself saying take a rest, 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.000 I have some other missions and things for you, and 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.159 the story got a little squarely there. But now that 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.200 we're talking together, I wanted to get your answer to 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:13.880 what happened there. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:22.480 I okay, So I still, you know, like it's still scared. 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.560 I mean I was scared a lot of times when 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:31.399 I was there, but this was the most scariest meeting 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:36.760 in my life, because you I that time, and even 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.760 now I kind of like, you know, like the power 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:41.560 of the person. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.280 Eliah seems to be struggling here. 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.119 I try to ask again what really happened at that 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.760 meeting with the general, why she was allowed to leave 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.879 the country, whether we had new assignments for her, and 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:57.000 whether she escaped the system and how. For the next 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.439 half hour, I struggled to get a clear and direct 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.320 answer that makes sense. I'm not sure something is lost 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:08.320 in the translation, or if there's something she's hiding and 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:13.080 it turns out there is. 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.440 Am I free now? Am I free? Now? 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:15.560 Like? 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.320 I don't know? Where is the guarantee they will not 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.520 do anything to me? Oh? My son and I have 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:28.160 this the thought every moment I leave, Is it a freedom? Now? 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.159 I ask Aleiah why she doesn't feel free and if 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:34.920 there's anything she's had to do since. 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:42.600 My general in my new commander, the unofficial commander, gave 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:47.480 me a new task to become whom I never wanted 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:53.040 to be. And it was low to my pride and 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:59.080 betray to my body and my soul. But I don't 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.440 want to end up on this note because it's such 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:06.520 a it's like breaking every hope for every person who 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.040 listen to that. The life is not like. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:12.119 You know. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.560 Aliyah trails off here. It's clear that she's conflicted. She 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.879 wants to be the hero of her own story and 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.120 she is just for starters. She's here and she survived it, 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.360 but it's a different kind of hero than perhaps her 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.199 father raised her to be. This desire to give her 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:35.120 story a happy ending for the audience helps explain who 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:40.439 she's become today. Throughout this podcast, some listeners have written 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.600 in struggling to reconcile the story she's telling with her 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.920 social media presence, which portrays a lot of red carpets, 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:52.760 expensive sports cars, paparazzi, fame and glamour. She wants She 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:58.440 likes everybody to see the success, the success. 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.720 The final story. Yeah, retail which I create in my 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:09.960 in my illusory world which actually fucking doesn't exist. I 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:15.679 pretend the Instagram is just all for me. It's like 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.880 I look at it and I feel better. I want 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.920 to believe that this is the result which I created 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:23.639 for myself. 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.719 Do you think part of that illusion also is not 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.399 just for you? But like showing your dad, even though 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:31.920 I didn't choose his path, look at me and look 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:33.240 at my life to. 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:40.840 My dad, of course, to show him that without military 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:46.560 and without following your order, I still pretend that I'm 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:54.800 successful because I feel I feel like it's my armor, 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:58.320 and I protect myself in certain ways where I cannot. 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:08.520 I don't have power enough to be open and live 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:14.399 in real world because it's it scares me a lot. 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:18.520 Let me pause, I said, Okay, if I call Emily. 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.840 He'd been working with therapeutically. So if I kind of 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:27.880 looper around this discussion, yes, okay, heym Lee you're there. 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.280 Yeah, I am so. 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.359 As I'm sitting here sort of unpacking stuff with Alah, 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:33.960 I just thought i'd sort of bring you in and 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.120 getgains some thoughts. Okay, what I'm learning is I talked 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:43.200 to a Liah Moore. Is the happy ending isn't exactly 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:46.640 how would you put Aliyah? The happy ending isn't? 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:48.000 There is no happy ending? 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:53.480 To be honest, at this point, I've spent a year 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.359 and a half with Aliyah an unpacked her story, not 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.400 just with Emily Maccus, the trauma counselor we're speaking with now, 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.600 but with Russian intelligence sources and experts. And I could 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:05.760 go over at point by point and share what the 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.000 FBI says was believable, with the CIA says was credible, 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.119 and so on. But I think we could do that 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:16.679 with any story. Every true crime podcast is a collection 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.400 of narratives that we're trying to pick the best path through. 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:22.280 And I think the path that is best to take 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:26.640 with Aleah given everything we've heard, is a trauma informed one. 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:28.560 People see Lea's Instagram, and they think of it from 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.359 an influencer point of view, but I'm curious what does 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:33.639 it look like from a trauma point of view. 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:38.480 Part is the association. It's part of her coping mechanism 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:39.000 and what she. 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:41.040 It was. 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:48.959 It's involuntary and detachment from reality at times, and it's 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:53.800 a way that she protected herself and most of the 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:55.920 time is unconscious. 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:56.960 With that dissociation. 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.920 When we experienced trauma, some of us want to feel 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.159 like it doesn't define us, that we're not victims, that 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:07.560 we winners, winners. 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:13.080 Trauma does affect the way we perceive ourselves, the way 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:16.000 we act and react, because it affected our brain. It 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:20.960 affected our nervous system. When you look at the association, 0:25:21.800 --> 0:25:25.160 it's part of the fight flight response. It's even your 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:27.119 memory that can be affected. 0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:32.920 I start to understand, as Emily speaks, that after surviving 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:36.199 such a disempowering experience, there's a need to find a 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:40.800 way to empower ourselves through our narrative. As the author 0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:44.680 Esactinas and once said, all sorrows can be born if 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:46.840 you put them into a story or tell a story 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:49.000 about them. 0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:54.560 And look at even the way Eliir was raised by 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:59.720 her father in the military. She was raised not to feel, 0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:06.439 not to be connected, but she was also raised to 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:10.919 be the superhero in the story. I just want to 0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:16.239 remind you, Aliyah that you can't change your past. You can, 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:19.840 but you can't change the narrative of the story. But 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:23.080 you are the superhero in your life story. 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:25.280 What are your thoughts on that? 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:33.359 I was thinking that I think this podcast actually gave 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:41.679 me freedom because first time in life I started to 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:50.159 feel I felt a strong guilt, I felt anger, I 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:56.840 felt hate, I felt pain, and then I started to 0:26:56.840 --> 0:27:04.000 feel love. I started to not to be ashamed of 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:12.040 my vulnerability. And first time in life, I noticed that 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:18.159 I started to be open to people in general and 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:25.800 man especially. And it's very scary, like it's so many 0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:29.400 fears that I don't know if I can handle it. 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:38.520 But I take a deep breath and try to move 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:44.680 on and not to close my heart and continue feeling, 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:49.359 which which is so hard. 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.119 Epilogue a Russian story. 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:23.840 So I just called to ask, what are your thoughts 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:25.280 now that you've heard the rest of e Leia's story. 0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:29.080 It took me on a journey, really, and. 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:32.639 The journey that it brought me on was such a 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:36.520 conclusion that she is a product of. 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:37.919 A father who's part of the state. 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:43.880 She was recruited and or volunteered into the state system. 0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:49.760 Her context is then shattered tragically with abuse and rape 0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:55.440 and then put into this odd school of sparrow training. 0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:58.120 Because that is just as we've said before. 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:00.240 Was that a real school, Was it a state spons 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.000 to school, or was a bunch of dirty old men 0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.520 that were justifying their actions on behalf of the state 0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:08.920 as an excuse could be all there lies the Russian 0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:10.480 state at its bedrock. 0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.480 This is Robin Driek again, former chief of the FBI's 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:17.280 Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis program. 0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:21.960 To keep you in a state of chaos personally, emotionally, psychologically, 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:26.600 and physically. They traumatize you, They trauma bond you to them. 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:28.520 This is the case where they give you. 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.040 A little bit of love bombing, we love you, you're great, 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.080 you're awesome, and then they beat on your, beat on 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:34.520 your beat on your beat on you, and then the 0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:37.000 beating has become more and the love becomes less, and 0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:40.080 then you get addicted to that. One time out of 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.160 a million, you might get a kind word or a 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.720 promotion or a good posting from someone, or maybe even 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:51.000 not being traumatized tonight by someone. This is what they do, 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:53.840 and that's what she u is a product of the state. 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:57.240 It is pretty profound that she was able to do 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:01.560 what she did to rescue herself, the amount of bravery 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:05.880 she had to start recognizing. Basically, it's the matrix. You 0:30:05.920 --> 0:30:07.840 know that they have to get myself out of this matrix. 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.440 And that's where therapy comes in, and that's where rescuing 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:14.160 ourselves from the trauma with the great healthy relationships we 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:16.680 tend forge around us and getting that narrative and that 0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:18.240 story out there for people to see. 0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:29.640 What is a hero? Is it Black Widow? Is it 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:34.040 Red Sparrow? Is it James Bond? When I first sat 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:36.880 down with Aliyah, that's the type of story I imagined hearing, 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.440 and I think that's the type of story Aliyah imagine telling. 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.760 But real life is not so clear cut. And I 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:47.680 learned through this process at least three things I will 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:52.720 never forget. The first is that life in a totalitarian system, 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:55.560 whether it's a country or one's own family, is a 0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:59.040 prison with bars made of fear and duty, and even 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:02.520 if we manage to gape physically, it's much harder to 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:09.480 escape psychologically. The second is that sexpionage is anything but sexy. 0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:13.200 The third is that most stories of abuse don't have 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.640 happy endings. The perpetrators often get away with it, the 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:22.120 victims rarely get justice or resolution, and even if they do, 0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:25.719 the healing process is often messy and incomplete. 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:28.840 All these things in here do happen, and these are 0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:30.680 the tragic results of them. 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:34.320 So what is a hero in this case and so 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:38.840 many others? Does a person who survived to tell their story? 0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:43.800 Not necessarily the story, their story? And what is healing? 0:31:45.040 --> 0:32:13.000 It's being heard, So thank you for listening. To Die 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.080 For is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:19.240 iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted and written by me 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:24.400 Neil Strauss, with additional writing assistants by Tristan Bankston. Executive 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:29.320 producers are myself, Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay. For iHeart Podcasts, 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:33.760 executive producers are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. Lead producer 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:37.600 and editor is Tristan Bankston. Additional editing by Miles Clark 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:43.760 and Christian Brown. Supervising producer Tracy Kaplan. Consultants include Nushin, 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.680