1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: Today we're going to repost my conversation with the late 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: Patricia Bosworth, my friend and colleague who died on April 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: two of this year of complications from the coronavirus. Bosworth 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: and I served together on the board of the Actor's Studio, 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: where she can always be relied upon to share her 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: passion for all things literary, theatrical, and artistic. From April 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen. Here's my conversation with the late Patricia Bosworth. 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: Mark Twain once likened biographies to what he called quote 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: the clothes and buttons of the man. He said, quote 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: the biography of the man himself cannot be written. The 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: quote is a favorite of Patricia Bosworth, in nineteen fifties 13 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: Broadway star turned by bographer, who for forty years has 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: been proving Twain's words wrong. In her books, Bosworth has 15 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: captured the essence of elusive artists like Montgomery Clift, Marlon Brando, 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: and New York Underworld photographer Diane Arbus. These men and 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: women were revered but broken, larger than life characters doomed 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: to self destruct. It's a type of Patricia Bosworth knows 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: firsthand her own father, Bartley Crumb, was a famous left 20 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: wing lawyer who, after an illustrious career that included defending 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: members of the Hollywood Ten, ended his own life. It's 22 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: her father's suicide and that of her brother years earlier, 23 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: that gave Bosworth a thirst to understand tormented souls. Her 24 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: new book, The Men in My Life turns that examination inward, 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: exploring how those deaths shaped her and were linked to 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: the fear and repression of that era. The third man 27 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: in her life during that period was her abusive first husband, 28 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: her frustrated artist she eloped with at age nineteen, HarperCollins. 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: Did not want me to name him since he tried 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: to kill me, you know, they felt that he might object. 31 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: And he was a painter, wanted to be a painter, 32 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: but he never painted anything except painting, which but he 33 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: seemed to be blaming everyone around him that he couldn't 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: get me painting done. That's right, yes, right, I make 35 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: jokes about it, but it actually was a horrible situation. Right, 36 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: How old were you? I was nineteen. My husband was 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: literally beating me up in a cab and I kept 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: telling him to stop, and finally I said to the 39 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: cab driver, please help me, and the guy just said 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: he's the boss lady, and he went right on, allowing 41 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: my husband to beat at me. So I jumped out 42 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 1: of the cab and ran to the traffic and got 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: on a bus and went up to see my therapist 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire because she had said, if I really 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: get into trouble, call me, I will be there for you. 46 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: So I get it there. She's your New York therapy. 47 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: She's my New York and she said if you ever 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: need me, call me. And now she's up in Vermont, Vermont. 49 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: That right on a bus because she had said, if 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: I really get into trouble, call me, I will be 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: there for you. So I get it there. I went 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: to the Quarta Thority bus terminal, got on the bus, 53 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: got up to notice no I didn't. I showed up 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: Ding Dong, opened the door and there she is in 55 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: a Kimona and I see sort of a man in 56 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: the background, and I say I needed help of therapy 57 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: right secondly, and I said I please, I need to help. 58 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: My husband's beating me up. This is my vacation. We 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: will talk when I returned to New York into September, 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: and she closed the door in my face, and I 61 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: was totally I didn't know where I was. I didn't 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: know where to go. She literally shut the door in 63 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: my face. I'm in a dusty, you know, little town, 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: wandering down the street east. Yeah, exactly. But I see 65 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: this in up ahead, and they're all these cars and there, 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: I think people, and and there are filmmakers and cameras 67 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: being pulled in and out of the places. And I 68 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: go inside and I'm crying. And this middle aged man 69 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: comes over to me, said what's the matter. And I said, 70 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: my husband left me. I didn't even know what to say. 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: He said, I'm going to take care of you. He said, 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: I am doing a movie on Robert Frost this afternoon, 73 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: a documentary, and you're going to come out with me. 74 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: And talked to Mr Frost and it's gonna make you 75 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: feel better. And I spent the entire afternoon with Robert 76 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: Frost talking poetry. And this actually happened Bella Kornitzer, who 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: is a well known documentarian who done movies on Truman 78 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: and Eisenhower, and he was doing this documentary on Frost. 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: He took I'd never seen me before in his life. 80 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: He was wonderful and it really did. It really sort 81 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: of was a very important experience in my life because 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: at that point I was so depressed and so I 83 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: didn't didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know 84 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: where I was going, and here was this man who 85 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: literally saved my life that day and showed me that 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: there was beauty and wonder and fabulousness in life, which 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: of course I knew, but i'd forgotten, you know, it 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: was it was really an incredib At that point in 89 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: your life. You weren't writing then, were you. I mean, 90 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: I was keeping a journal. I kept a journal since 91 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: I was a teen. I was modeling and acting, and 92 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: I started to act. Yes, I did that, And your 93 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: career as a writer doesn't really take off, so to speak, 94 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: until when well I was I was an actress on 95 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: Broadway and off and movies for ten years for ten years. 96 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: But I always wanted to write. I had these dual 97 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: ambitions of wanting to be both an actress and a writer, 98 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: like call that. But you walked away from acting? Why? 99 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: Because I really enjoyed writing more. Uh. And also I 100 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: hated the rejections out and I was not moving as 101 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: fast as I wanted to. I didn't get the parts 102 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: I wanted. I uh, but I really I really enjoyed 103 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: writing more. And you're more self reliant when you're where everybody. 104 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: I didn't have to I didn't have to wait for 105 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: people to agree, you know, tell me what I was, 106 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: get it right? The part? What are the first things 107 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: you start to write and submit? But magazine pieces or 108 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: books or whatever they were, they were they were magazine pieces. 109 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: Actually what happened was I took a writing course at Columbia, 110 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: and uh, I started writing little pieces, sort of memory pieces. 111 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: I actually started writing a memoir about my father and 112 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: my brother. When I was backstage in Mary Mary. Remember 113 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: I was doing that too. I was in a Broadway show. 114 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: I was understudying a double understudy Barbara ball Gettys and 115 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: Betsy on Furstenburg, and I went on for both parts 116 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: where you can imagine it was. It was rough, because 117 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: of course I wanted to play both parts. But but 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: when I wasn't going on for these two actresses, I 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: was in my dressing room starting to write. And I 120 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: did start to write this story of my family, but 121 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: I wrote it as a novel. And of course was terrible. 122 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: But then I was writing little pieces. I started talking 123 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: to my actor friends. I thought, god, they're sort of interesting, 124 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: and I began interviewing Sandy Dennis and Liz Ashley and 125 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Marian Seldi's all the actors I knew on Broadway at 126 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: the time, and they created a sensation because they were 127 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: very honest, frank interviews. Because nobody thought I'd get my 128 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: stuff published. My friends babble to me without realizing that 129 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: I was taking everything down, and actually Sandy and Liz 130 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: both tried to sue me. They stopped being my friends. 131 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: It was horrible. I got sick to my stomach. It's 132 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: like it's like answered prayers. No, but I really felt 133 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: that I had betrayed them. And if I remember them correctly, 134 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: they're two rather delicate women. Yeah, what's the first book 135 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: you attempt? Oh. I didn't start writing a book for 136 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: ten years. I had a long apprenticeship at various magazines, 137 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: including a place called Magazine Management, a schlock house where 138 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: Mario Puzzo was writing The Godfather. No, he was writing 139 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: The Godfather. Well he was on staff at the magazine, 140 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: Yes he was. He wrote sex action pieces and sex 141 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: action Well, that's what they're called sex action. I want 142 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: you and I to you and I are going to 143 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: start an online side we are. We're gonna call it 144 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: sex action. We're gonna I never dreamed it would be you, 145 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: Patty Bobsworth, You and I are going to do sex action. 146 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: And I can't even tell you how which money we're 147 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: gonna make. I don't even know what it is. It 148 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: doesn't even matter. Sex slash action, I figured. And then 149 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: when they come home, they have a lot of sex. 150 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: They do have their mind. Huh. Yes. But Mario wrote 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: incredible stories. He ground them out. And on the side, 152 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: he was writing this book called The Godfather, and people 153 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: kept saying when are you going to finish? And it 154 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: took him nine years, and if you can believe it, 155 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: one of the staff people said to him, Mario, the 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: Godfather is not a good title, right, yeah, come on. 157 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: But but I became one of his like proteges in 158 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: a way. Really was like he was just a wonderful 159 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: man and he really knew how to write. He knew 160 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: how to write dan narrative characters. He was terrific. He 161 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: was a wonderful But the thing that bothered him was 162 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: he was not considered a serious writer. After he had 163 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: so much success with The Godfather. He wanted to be 164 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: of Philip Roth Hemingway. He wanted people to think of 165 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: him in these terms. But he wanted to be considered. 166 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: He wanted to be reviewed in New York Review of Books. 167 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: He wasn't. Was he married a family yes, oh yeah, 168 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: very much a family man while he was writing sex action. 169 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: He was a family man, yes he was. He was 170 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: also a gambler. That was the other reason that he 171 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: stayed there so long. At this place called Magazine Management, 172 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: which also produced Marvel Comics. Okay Stanley of Marvel Comics 173 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: and guests who came to visit one day at the 174 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: office Felini what Felini came to see stan Lee because 175 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: he had created you know whoever spider Man and God knows. 176 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: And Felini came to the office in the black cape 177 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: and the hat, and Mario was out in the lobby 178 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: and he saw this guy speaking in Italian to the reception. 179 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: She didn't know who he Felini, so he said, oh 180 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: my god, you are Felini, and they spoke in Italian. 181 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: He brought Felini into the bullpen. We were all, you know, 182 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: sitting there and he introduced us, and Felini told us 183 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: in Italian Mario translating, I too began in schlock, I too, 184 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: I was in the magazine management of I two wrote 185 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: sex action. No, but he used to. But but Felini 186 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: was a cartoonist, you know, I didn't know, Oh yeah, 187 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: and that. And so he was talking to us about 188 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: how you two can be great, you know, artists, but 189 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: you do begin sometimes in a different way. You draw 190 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: cartoons or you write sex action, and then you go 191 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: beyond that. But he was like, very inspiring to us. 192 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: Were the influences of your family, your brother, your father, 193 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: your childhood? Were they revealing themselves in the work you 194 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: did then? Or did that all pile up later into No, 195 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: it didn't. It didn't reveal itself at all. In fact, 196 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: nobody knew anything about my I never talked about my stuff. 197 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: That yeah, I did. I just totally swallowed it and 198 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: and and hit it. And I didn't talk about anything 199 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: that had happened to me. Ever, when I wrote this, 200 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: these last two books, nobody had known anything about my 201 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: father or the suicide of my my brother or my father. Um, 202 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: I was you were in college, Yes, you were going 203 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: where again, Sarah Lawrence, Yeah, do you care to talk 204 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: about that? Would prefer I could talk about whatever you 205 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: What do you think was going on with your brother? Well, 206 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: it's a long story. He had gone to Deerfield Academy, 207 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: very happy to be there. He was a brilliant kid. Uh, 208 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: the closest person to me in my life. Really. I 209 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: really looked up to him and we were just very 210 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: close for every closest twins really, i'd say. But anyway, 211 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: he was at Deerfield and he he really fell in 212 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: love with another boy. Uh. And in those days, that 213 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of thing didn't happen. It was inconvenient to put 214 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: it mildly. He was discovered with his arms around this 215 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: boy in a gym in the gym in the Deerfield 216 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: gym by somebody, and uh, they realized they'd been caught 217 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: hugging each other, embracing. Perhaps because I never really found 218 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: out exactly what was going on. But the following day, 219 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: my brother's friend was found hanging from a tree, and 220 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: my brother was expelled from school and he was blamed 221 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: for it really uh, and he never ever recovered from it. 222 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: He went into a deep depression. He was sent to 223 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: many analysts nobody ever talked he stopped going to school. No, 224 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: he continued to go to school. He went to different 225 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: schools after that. But but soon after that boy died. 226 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: Three years my brother shot himself on the head when 227 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: he was eighteen. Uh, he was fifteen when when his 228 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: friend hung himself. And by the way, Deerfield refused to 229 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: ever talk about the suicides, that it never happened. I 230 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: tried to research it. I went up there and they 231 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: said my brother had never gone to Deerfield. So I 232 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: pulled out the year book which had my brother's name 233 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: in it. I said, he did go to school. This boy, 234 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: this other boy did himself. They never ever would would 235 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 1: admit that there had been a suicide at Deerfield. H 236 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: m um. So there's a period of this writing McCall's 237 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: and Harper's Bizarre and so forth. And then your first 238 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: book is Montgomery Cliff. You homed in on him first? Why, well, well, 239 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: my husband, my second husband, Melregi, who was my great 240 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: one of my great loves of my life. Uh and 241 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: smortunately not here now anyway, Mel said right about Montgomery Cliff, 242 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: because you knew him, you remember him, you saw him 243 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: when you were a little girl. Blah blah blah, start 244 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: with and and and so I did. Uh. And I 245 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: met him when I was fifteen because my father was 246 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: his lawyer. My father was his lawyer for what when 247 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: when Monty this was a long long time ago, like 248 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: in forty eight, when Montgomery Cliff was just starting and 249 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: becoming the star. My father advised him on on on 250 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: on his politics. Oddly enough, Monty was very involved politically involved, 251 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: I mean in that he had a conscience and he 252 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: knew what was going on in the Blacklist was about 253 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: to start. And my father had come off working for 254 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: Truman and was known politically as a you know, radical lawyer. Anyway, 255 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: money Uh came to him and talked to him, and 256 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: that's when I first saw him, and fella sort of 257 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: got a crush on him. Uh. I didn't know anything 258 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: about his problems at that time. It was only later 259 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: you didn't know anything about it. I didn't, but all 260 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: the other people that I gravitated to, like Jane Fonda, 261 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: whose mother had committed suicide, and so we became like 262 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: suicide survivors together at the studio and uh Arbists who 263 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: did commit suicide, and Arbist the photographer, and then Brando 264 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: who was also very committed suicide and slow motion in 265 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: a way, yeah, by eating too much. Is it safe 266 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: to say that there's a link between your childhood your 267 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: dad had a very kind of uh tough period in 268 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: his career with the House and American Activities Committee, to 269 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: ending people there, your brother and the kinds of people 270 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: you wrote about in your books. Do you kind of 271 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: gravitate towards complicated, troubled people. Absolutely always. And I didn't 272 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: know that. I mean when I began, I just you know, 273 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the first book I wrote was about Montgomery Clift. Your 274 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: your book about Cliff was entitled Montgomery Cliff, And there 275 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: was another book, Monty someone else wrote about him. Did 276 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: they both come out at around the same time. No, 277 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: they didn't. My mind came out later the other book 278 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Bob LaGuardia. What happened was I had been contracted to 279 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: do a biography but Montgomery Clift and I began got 280 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: this incredible research from his about his family, and then 281 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: my mother got very sick and I had to stop 282 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: writing it to take care of her, and the publishers 283 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: sued me and got Bob LaGuardia to write a quickie 284 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: book called Monty. He used my even the picture, my 285 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: cover picture. He also sued me for ten tho dollars 286 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: because he said he promoted me in my book. Monty 287 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: came out. When Monty came out about almost a year 288 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: and a half before my my book came out. But 289 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: then my book was considered the good book. Your book 290 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: came out, and I was living in Washington at the time, 291 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: going to school, and I read the Washington Post review 292 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: of your book. A big piece of the article was 293 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: an interview with his brother who lived in the DC suburbs. 294 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: I guess in Maryland or Virginia. Mae and Eleanor Clift 295 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: was his wife. There you go. And the thing that 296 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: was so amazing was that Brooks gave me everything. He 297 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: decided he would trust me because he had all of 298 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: his brother's stuff, including a phone book, and my name 299 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: was in the phone book and my father's name was, 300 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: so he knew that I had known him, and he 301 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: liked that. He liked that idea. I found him in 302 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: the in the phone book, and I called him up 303 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: because I was so intrigued by Clift and the kind 304 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: of predator natural beauty, and he was so beautiful, gorgeous, 305 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: he was incredible. But when but when you did, when 306 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: you did his story, you had met him. I had 307 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: met him when I was fifteen year years old and 308 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: died in nineteen sixty five, I believe. But I met 309 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: him in nineteen I hate to say it. I mean, 310 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: I think I met him in forty eight or forty nine. 311 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: It was when he did the Search and Red River. Uh. 312 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: And then he did Place in the Sun in nineteen fifty. 313 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: I guess it was. I met him literally at the 314 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: height of his fame, and he was absolutely, ravishingly beautiful. 315 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: What wasn't that that d him? What was it that 316 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: ated him? Oh? I think I think the fact that 317 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: he was homosexual and he was very conflicted about his sexuality. 318 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: He was supposed to pretend to be straight. Was that 319 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: Was that the conflict that he had to pretend in public? 320 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Or was he conflicted about being gay? He apparently, according 321 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: to his analyst, he was conflicted about being a You know, 322 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: he did have these relationships with women. Apparently he did 323 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: go to bed with one woman, Judy Balaban, Remember Judy 324 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: Judy Barney Balaban's daughter who was the head of Paramount. 325 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: Women were crazy about him. When women want to do 326 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: it in bed with him. He was androgynous. He was 327 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: like Brando in a way. They were both. It was 328 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: so complicated sexually, so so sensual and so oh boy, 329 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he's so gorgeous. Number one, Yes, it was. 330 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: He did go both ways, as did Brando. They were 331 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: both bisexual to begin with, but Cliff then ultimately turned 332 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: totally gay and had many male lovers. You hear these stories, 333 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: but the one I heard was that Brando said to 334 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: Edward Dimitric didn't Demitric direct that the alliance, and Brando 335 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: said to Dimitric that he was going to get shot 336 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: in the end his big death scene and rolled down 337 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: the side of this hill. He was gonna land, and 338 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: he wanted to land in the christ like low and 339 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: he wanted the last minute for a bush to fall 340 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: and a crown of thorns, kind of formal and apparently 341 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: Cliff said. Apparently Cliff turned to Demitric and said, if 342 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: he does that, I'm going home. I think that may 343 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: be a true story, could be, but but but Cliff, 344 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: I can't help but speak about this in the most basic, 345 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: even eroticized fandom. You know what I mean, which is 346 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: everybody knows that him and Elizabeth Taylor in Place in 347 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: the Sun. I mean, there's just no more beautiful couple 348 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: in the history, not not even carry granted me. They 349 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: like to stand in front of the mirror together to 350 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:23,239 Speaker 1: look at their reflections. They knew they were gorgeous coming up. 351 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: Patricia Bosworth relives the day she's sent to facts to 352 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: Marlon Brando's dog and got a response. Patricia Bosworth has 353 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: a thousand stories from her days amongst the greats of 354 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: stage and screen. But if anyone can give her a 355 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: run for her money, it's the late Robert Osborne, host 356 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: of Turner Classic Movies and once a working actor himself 357 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: in NT His luck and charm got him a screen 358 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: test with Lucille Ball. So when it was over, Lucy 359 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: didn't really say anything. She's just thank me for coming by, 360 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, she wasn't that impressed, but at 361 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: least I got to spend some time with Lucia Ball. 362 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: Like a week later, a message comes on my voice, Uh, 363 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: you're answering service. Hello Lebray and nine and two thousand. 364 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: I called the number and the second he said, well, 365 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: Lucy A Ball wants you to come to dinner on 366 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: Friday night. So I go to Lucy's house at Friday Night. 367 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: There's Janet Gayner, there's Joseph Cotton, there's Kay Thompson, and 368 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, did you ever believe that you would ever be? 369 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: And then I thought, no, wait a minute, I always 370 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: knew I was going to be here. Listen to my 371 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: entire interview with Robert Osborne at Here's the Thing, Dot Org. 372 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's 373 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: the Thing. Patricia Bosworth had a successful career as an 374 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: actress in the nineteen fifties, rubbing elbows with the likes 375 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: of Audrey Hepburn and Marilyn Monroe, but it was the 376 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: stories behind the scenes that interested her most. After releasing 377 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: her first book in Night, She's gone on to write 378 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: six more, one of which, on Diane Arbus, was turned 379 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: into a movie. New York Magazine called the book a 380 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: spell binding portrait my research on arbas is all original. 381 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 1: It was. It was amazing. It took me seven years 382 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: almost to write the book, and I I didn't know 383 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: how incredible it was going to be. I really didn't. 384 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: Is that what happens? You're doing the research and going, oh, 385 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: it's it's like solving, like solving a mystery. 're always 386 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: looking for cluescing a well, not really, but in terms 387 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: of a lot of research, very research heavy. I interviewed 388 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of people from every part of her life, 389 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: and of course I created the worlds that she inhabited, 390 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: the world of fashion, the world, the dark world, and 391 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: I wanted to do that. Oddly enough, every single one 392 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: of the people I've written out I've known personally, and 393 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: in a way it makes it, It makes it for 394 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: me more. I don't know immediate and I can since 395 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: I know them, I can see them and I know 396 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: a little bit about them, and it's mainly I'm so curious. 397 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm very nosy. That's the way most higraphers. And you 398 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: thought that her story would make something that was worth 399 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: I didn't know I had. I'd modeled for her when 400 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: I was a kid, when I was a teenager, you 401 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: know that, and I needed money and I became a 402 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: model and I modeled for her and she hired me 403 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: because I didn't really look like a model. I was, 404 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, she was then in fashion and she was 405 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: a fashion photographer with her husband, and she was intrigued 406 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: by me because I had gotten married when I was seventeen, 407 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: loped she had too, and I hadn't realized that. So 408 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: this kind of interested her, intrigued her, and I found 409 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: her probably one of the strangest, kind of most eerie 410 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: personalities I'd ever come across. Well, she spoke in a 411 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: very tiny voice. She wore the same dress every single day, 412 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: a reuniform, was always barefoot. She wore the same dress 413 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: because she said, I don't want to think about what 414 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: I wear. And literally the thing that was falling apart 415 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: was ragged and dirty. But she was very, very smart, 416 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: and she asked me all sorts of interesting questions. She 417 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: lived in the studio with her with her husband and 418 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: child in New York. Yeah, it was an old artist 419 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: laft studio on East seventy second Street off Second Avenue, 420 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: and had a tree in the live in in part 421 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: of the studio. But I never forgot her because she 422 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: was so she was she actually took an interest in me. 423 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: I was. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. 424 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: I was very unhappy. I remember at one point a 425 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: photographer molested me, a male photographer before one of my 426 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: sessions with with in A was a catalog house. I 427 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: guess I was working for. And I remember telling her 428 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: about this in tears and saying, now I'll never be 429 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: able to work with this man again. She well, of 430 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: course you won't. You shouldn't, yeh, you're getting it all wrong. 431 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: Won't have me back exactly, And she said, remember who 432 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: you are. You know you can't, you don't shouldn't tolerate 433 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: this kind of behavior. Nobody had ever talked to me 434 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: like this. Of course, in those days, women were very passive, 435 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: very until you were by and large. Why did Arbace 436 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: kill herself, Well, there were many reasons for that, you know. 437 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: She was deeply depressed to her lover was uh not 438 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: faithful to her. That was one thing that upset her. 439 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: But she also was suffering from deep depression and didn't 440 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: could not take any kind of antidepressants. They made they 441 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: made her feel sick. That's what her mother told me. 442 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: She was never on any any drugs from Arbus. Originally 443 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: she was right from New York City. Her her family 444 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: were a mercantile family. They owned Russex department store. Her ears. 445 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: She was very rich, came from a very rich family, 446 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: was raised by nanny's and and chauffeur's jargon U. S. 447 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: S I C. K apostrophe. Yes, and the Russex building 448 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: is still on. Her mother was always depressed. The entire family, 449 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: it was, this was depressed her. Her brother was Howard Nemeroff, 450 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: the poet, and he was the one who was my source, 451 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: my major source. And he said, we were always depressed. 452 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: Uh not all the money in the world, but money 453 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: was didn't it didn't matter. I mean she she fought 454 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: her depression by by photograph, by going into this other 455 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: world or this other reality, this dark reality she always 456 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: wanted to explore because she felt she was in a reality. 457 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: She didn't like this reality of the department store and 458 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: the money and and the thinking of possessions all the 459 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: time she was she wanted to decree. Marvin Israel, who 460 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: was Richard Avedon's right hand and his work, and he 461 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: was He was also a brilliant painter and photographer. He 462 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: was an assistant to Abdon No he designed his shows, 463 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: and he was also art director of Harper's Bazaar. He 464 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: was a graphics designer and painter, a very strange man 465 00:25:52,920 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: who who only painted dogs chewing it at each other. Well, 466 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna leave that out of Sex Action. Um, your 467 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 1: book about Cliff comes out in seventy eight, and your 468 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: book on artist comes out in eighty four, and then 469 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: you take a very long time until you write your 470 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: next book. You don't do the book about Brando until 471 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: seventeen years later. Well, that's right. In the meantime, I 472 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: did were anything your little heart desires in? How does 473 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: that just state? Well? As I say, I jes stated 474 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: for like forty years. In other words, I started writing 475 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: it in my dressing room at the Hellenais Theater when 476 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: I was in Mary Mary. I started writing the story 477 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: of my father, of his beginnings, of his political career, 478 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: my brother's suicide. I actually started as a novel. I 479 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: fictionalized it, which is ridiculous, and then I stopped. I 480 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: didn't actually write it as a real book, as I 481 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: didn't get a contract for it for thirty some thirty 482 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: odd years. But I was thinking about her all the time. 483 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: This story of my father, story of my brother, my 484 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: mother me uh took about thirty forty years. A lot 485 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: of things out. No, I didn't because by the time 486 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: I wrote it, everybody was dead, you know, and I 487 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: was felt free enough to for example, my mother and 488 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: her lovers, this lover that she had was our gardener, 489 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: which is an incredible story in the book. I never 490 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: could have told that when she was alive, and I 491 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't have. But but no, I really did. I think 492 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: I told almost everything, not everything out. You know. I 493 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: almost would rather write a novel because I can do 494 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: whatever I want to do and say whatever I want 495 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: to say, and just make up the people and if 496 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: they overlap with real people, who gives a ship? Have 497 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: you ever want to do the same thing? Yes, I have, 498 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: I haven't. I haven't though, but but I still feel 499 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: I may may yet write another memoir. But yes, of 500 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: course I have. Uh, I just haven't yet. Now we 501 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: obviously when you did the first memoir, anything your little 502 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: heart desires an American family story, it stops when the 503 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: cutoff is it stops after after my father committed suicide. 504 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: What actually, I just on this movie called Anne Story 505 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: with Audrey Hedburn. It was my biggest credit. Uh and uh, 506 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: yeah I was. I was doing quite well. But after 507 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: my father committed suicide, I seemed to lose all ambitious 508 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: vision and I I kind of became numbed all over 509 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: again because my brother had already committed suicide. So this 510 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: for me was a very traumatic, huge change in my 511 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: life his suicide. I'd also wanted to prove myself to him, 512 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, be successful. He was gone. Were all these 513 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 1: things that that that made me pulled back? And for 514 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: a while I just didn't want to do anything I did. 515 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: I worked, but I didn't have an ambition. I want 516 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: to talk quickly about Brandon. Um, my feelings about Brandon 517 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: have altered quite a bit over the last ten years. 518 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: When when you put all the pieces together psychologically, intelligence, sexuality, 519 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: and sensitivity, most stars have two, almost none have all three, 520 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: and Brando of course had all three, but very quickly 521 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: he becomes you know, this extended middle finger of this 522 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: extended fuck you to the business. It's exhausting. What do 523 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: you think that was about? When did that start for him? 524 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: Was it fuck you? Even with Streetcar with Kazan and No, 525 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: it was his mother, the death of his mother. I 526 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: think we'll go back, I'll backtrack. Okay. His mother was 527 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: an alcoholic, and Brando spent his childhood and adolescents taking 528 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: care of her, getting her out of bars, carrying her home, 529 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: even beating his father up when his father was beating 530 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,479 Speaker 1: her up. And of course you know she was an 531 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: actress ran that little playhouse in where was it, Nebraska? 532 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: For example, when he did Julius Caesar, he went home 533 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: and he recited Shakespeare in the corn Fields with her listening, 534 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But what happened was she decided 535 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: to go into a and this meant that Brando no 536 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: longer could take care of her. She was taking care 537 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: of herself. He almost had a nervous breakdown, and he 538 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: even Stella Adler even talked to him about it. So, uh, 539 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: Harold Kleman talked to me about this, this whole aspect 540 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: sea the book. No, I didn't speak to him at all. 541 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: I only I only met him once at the actor's studio. 542 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: I called him on the phone. He wanted to talk 543 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: to me, originally because he wanted to talk about Kazan, 544 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: and he actually wrote me a letter that he would 545 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: talk to me, but then he decided not to, and 546 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: I really became so frustrated. I kept calling him and calling, 547 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: and finally somebody said, why don't you call his dog Alec. 548 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: I did listen to this. I facts, dear Fido, I 549 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: want to speak to your master. Within seconds, the facts 550 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: came back back, saying, my master does not want to 551 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: talk to you and signed with two paw prints. This 552 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: was Brando answering me people incessantly I was going to 553 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: do because I had done street Car for TV, which 554 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: was a huge miss, was one of the biggest mistakes 555 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: of my career and the biggest waste of time of 556 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: my career, and we all just did it for a paycheck. 557 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: And then I get an offer from CBS. Was doing 558 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: that stuff back then. They said, would you do Canona 559 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: Hot Tin Roof with my ex wife with Kim would 560 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: play uh Maggie. And we were all a little long 561 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: in the tooth for these parts, by the way, But 562 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: then they said would we do? And Brando would be 563 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: big daddy. And I've got a call Brando, And you know, 564 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: you call the number and leave the message, and the 565 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: woman calls you back, and they're very prompt and very formal, 566 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: and she said, what time, what number, he will call you. 567 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: And sure enough, I'm sitting in my house and my 568 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: phone rings, and of course I trip over myself and 569 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: most break brand neck tripping over a stool in the 570 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: kitchen to get to the phone. Maybe he's gonna let 571 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: it ring three times and hang up. You know, he's 572 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: maybe he's just sick of this. And I pick up 573 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: the phone and she says, here he is. And he 574 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: gets on the phone and he said, why don't you 575 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: come by a Thursday? And I was like, oh my god. 576 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: And I go to his house and I had lunch 577 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: with him for four hours. Oh my god, are you 578 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: kidding me? And I had lunch with him for four 579 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: hours and you could tell he was sad. He was sad. 580 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: What was the thing that you learned about him that 581 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: was among the thousands of things I'm sure was Brando's bisexuality. 582 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: That's that's not that widely known though, Oh yes among 583 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: his friends. Yes, he was totally free about it. He 584 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: didn't give a damn. He didn't care at all. Any 585 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: port in a storm for absolutely, absolutely, who's wild? And 586 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: it was it was Wally Cox's dear friend or was 587 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: he his boyfriend that I don't know. I don't know. 588 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: Wally Cox absolutely, and Brando lived. Heared Wally Cox. And 589 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: when Wally Cox died, Brando went went to the funeral. 590 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: But he wouldn't go to the funeral. He climbed up 591 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: a tree and looked down at the ceremony and then 592 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: thought to get the ashes oh, I thought that they 593 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: roomed together. They did in the fifties, and Shelley Winters 594 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: tells this funny story about being Brando's date one night 595 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: and Wally Cox was there and they had they had 596 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: something like roasted grapefruit for dinner. That's it, right, Yeah, 597 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: that's it, and Brando cooked. He used to climb out windows. 598 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: He used to go into people's apartments. He would like, 599 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: be like a burglar and climb into windows and poke 600 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: his head and say hello and then leave. But now, 601 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: Jane Fonda is someone who has always just intrigued me 602 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: to the end because she's had these multiple stages of 603 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: her career, her you know, tabloid e marriages and Tom Hayden, 604 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: who I worship. I love Tom. But for me, what 605 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: will never die is looking back at her as one 606 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: of the great not just beauties and movies started, but 607 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: film actresses. I mean, she's such a great act she is, 608 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: she is great. Forget include It's heartbreaking to me this 609 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: woman is still not grinding out as any movies as possible, 610 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: even forget about age, because she's so mes terizing the 611 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: what was the experience like writing about her? She had 612 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: a comparable loss that losses, her mother slitting her throat 613 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: when Jane was twelve years old, and and her father 614 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: who never showed his love for her. Henry Fonda never 615 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: said I love you. He was always cold to her. 616 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Uh does she ever understand? Why did she venture? He 617 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: was a very strange man. I think he actually was 618 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: obsessed with her myself. But what happened was Jane and 619 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: I had met at the actor's studio and she decided 620 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: she wanted a woman to write her biography. She'd had 621 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: nine biographies written by men, and they had all been 622 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: threatened by her. She wanted a woman to write about 623 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: her life, totally biography. She didn't want to call it 624 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: off our eyes because she didn't read it. She refused 625 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: to read it. She said, oh, I'm only looking at 626 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: the pictures. But she heard from other people it was okay. 627 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: It was very difficult for me to do that. I 628 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: mean it was difficult because I knew her. She trusted 629 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: me totally, and there were a lot of things in 630 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: her life that she'd done that We're not that great, 631 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, So how do I handle that one? I mean? 632 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 1: She stole her routines for the workout from her trainer 633 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: and should I tell this, you know. So I called Gilda, 634 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: who is her trainer, and Gil said, yeah, she didn't 635 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: steal him. Did you ask about Yes? I did. She said, well, 636 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: you know, I you she she hedged and and him 637 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: to odd. I didn't want it to be a puff 638 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: piece because she had given me so much. It was difficult, 639 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: and there were certain things I did leave out. She 640 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: decided she wanted to be taken care of, even though 641 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,439 Speaker 1: Ted Turner himself said I couldn't take care of her. 642 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: She wouldn't even let me pay for her plane tickets, 643 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: she said. But I think also they were They're very 644 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: much alike in a way. I mean, they're both totally 645 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: self involved, very smart. Uh. They loved they loved the fame, 646 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: they loved the power that comes with that. Um So 647 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: I think for a while it worked, except he was 648 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: always unfaithful to her, always and and and she couldn't 649 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: take that he was unfaithful. Like the second week, third 650 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: week they were married, she found out he was screwing 651 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: somebody you were. The latest book entitled The Men in 652 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: My Life, A Memoir of Love and Art in nineteen 653 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: fifties Manhattan is very sad and funny, but really really sad. 654 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: But but the thing is, when you write a book, 655 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: what are you supposed to write? You cannot be indifferent 656 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: to your own history, you know you can't. And I 657 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: was very involved, and yes, I guess I did get 658 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: sad at times. Well, what I love about when I 659 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: read Cliff as you as you as you read, and 660 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: you think, is anybody happy in this business? Is anybody 661 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: ultimately happy? I don't know. I don't know. I think 662 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: they are. You know, was Paul Newman happy? Now? Maybe 663 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: he wasn't. I think Paul, I think that was very 664 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: happy towards the end. I think Newman for Newman, the 665 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: great you know, horrible thing. I want to assume as 666 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: when his son Scott killed himself changed him to I 667 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: think it was completely changed to changed him totally. I 668 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: think that that really affected him. Your last book, your 669 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: memoir that's out now, there really is a kind of 670 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: an energy of what's the word I'm thinking of? Forgiveness? 671 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: Is that is that right to say that you're not 672 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,919 Speaker 1: mean to these people in this book? Well, you really 673 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: put the gloves on with the X husband of yours. 674 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: That's not mean to him? No, I know, I'm not. 675 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: I don't I I was. I was just I don't know, 676 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: I just I wanted, I wanted to tell these stories. 677 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: It's really, you know, the book really is about my brother. 678 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: It's it's a tribute to my brother. What's the next 679 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: memoir for you? I don't know yet. I think I 680 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: would like to write about Actually, I'd like to write 681 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: about the next ten years, meaning the six the sixties 682 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 1: into seventies, where I get into feminism and I work 683 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: in pornography, which I did for a while with Bob 684 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: Guccione and did I edited a female porn magazine called 685 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: Viva for two years until he fired me. What was 686 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: he like? He was a complicated man. I mean, he 687 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: wanted to be a painter or another one. Uh. He 688 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: felt he was doing good. He was an accidental pornographer. 689 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: Was he was? He was? He was very smart and 690 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 1: he actually published some wonderful articles inhouse. Remember I remember 691 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: reading about Barry Seal from the Whole Mina Arkansas Conspiracy 692 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of and and and 693 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: Viva had great writing in it too. He did well. 694 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: I think that when you're done with that memoir, or 695 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: maybe while you're writing that memoir, I want you to 696 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: remember to allow time for you and I for sex action. 697 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: It's a winner. Okay. Launch date to be determined. This 698 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the 699 00:38:51,120 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: thing they did in cho put the same time k