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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And it seems this week, rob you've got ninjas on

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Speaker 3: the brain. You have ninjas on the brain, in the brain,

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Speaker 3: coming out of the brain, going in and out in secret.

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Speaker 3: What brought you to the topic of the ninja for

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Speaker 3: today's episode.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, on one level, obviously, I've always been

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Speaker 2: a ninja fan, a big, big fan of the pop

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Speaker 2: cultural ninja. As we'll get into, you know, just because

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Speaker 2: by virtue of growing up when I grew up in

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Speaker 2: the various interests that I have. But then, of course, also,

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Speaker 2: as I've mentioned the show before, my family and I

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Speaker 2: recently went on a trip to Japan. We got to visit,

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Speaker 2: I believe, a couple of historic sites that have ties

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Speaker 2: to the historic Nina, and so I thought, well, now

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Speaker 2: it's the time. Let's this is the ideal time to

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Speaker 2: jump into the subject of the ninja with the acknowledgement

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Speaker 2: that's it gets a little complicated in places. It's not

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Speaker 2: as cut and dry as some people might expect it

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Speaker 2: to be. But there's a fascinating weave of fiction and

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Speaker 2: hidden history and also legends and myth totally.

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Speaker 3: But I also hear what you're saying about coming of

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Speaker 3: age in an era where there was just ninja fever

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Speaker 3: in like US pop culture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think this would be a great

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Speaker 2: place to start and maybe compare notes on sort of

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Speaker 2: our generational influences regarding the ninja. I'm a little older

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Speaker 2: than you, so I might be exposed to some things

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Speaker 2: earlier that you were not, like the Big Divider being

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Speaker 2: like teenage mutant Ninja Turtles. By the time they came around,

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Speaker 2: I was very into them, but I at the time

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Speaker 2: thought that I was too old to be into them,

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Speaker 2: So I had this kind of like should I shouldn't

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Speaker 2: I relationship with the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles? Then of

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Speaker 2: course I should have, and I'm glad that I did

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Speaker 2: to the extent I did. But for me, looking back,

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Speaker 2: I would say, like the earliest exposures I had to

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Speaker 2: ninja media in the US, I would say, certainly, you

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Speaker 2: have the g I. Joe ninja characters, storm Shadow and

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Speaker 2: Snake Eyes. One wore black and was you know, goodness,

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Speaker 2: I can't remember which one was the good cart back.

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Speaker 2: I think maybe the good guy wore black and the

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Speaker 2: bad guy wore white, which even at the time was

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Speaker 2: like stuck stuck out as stuck out as being a

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Speaker 2: little unbelievable because even as a kid, you know that

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Speaker 2: the ninja is supposed to move through the shadows. Why

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Speaker 2: is this ninja wearing all white? It seems like he's

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Speaker 2: made some style choices that may backfire on him later on.

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Speaker 3: I was just looking up to see if Snake Eyes

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Speaker 3: was one of the G I. Joe action figures I had,

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Speaker 3: and I think it was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I definitely had one or both of these guys,

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Speaker 2: and they would go on all sorts of you know,

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Speaker 2: ninja related adventures with the other action figures. Inevitably a

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Speaker 2: small screwdriver would become involved and and G I. Joe

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Speaker 2: Man would be.

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Speaker 3: Dismembered swapping heads and stuff. Yeah, yeah, well, I think

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Speaker 3: I had some of the same main obviously teenage meaning

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Speaker 3: ninja turtles. I fortunately, I think when I first came

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Speaker 3: to them, did not have to deal with the internal

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Speaker 3: turmoil of thinking I was too old for them. That

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Speaker 3: does that sounds rough.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know rough is the right way to

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Speaker 2: describe it. But you know there is it is that

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Speaker 2: that conundrum if the peer pressure is there to make

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Speaker 2: you feel like you need to get in a hurry

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Speaker 2: to grow up, but you really are not ready to

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Speaker 2: put aside things like ninja turtles. You know, at the

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Speaker 2: time it may feel like a conundrum, but you know,

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Speaker 2: Ninja turtles are awesome.

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Speaker 3: Yes, But there was also I know what you're saying,

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Speaker 3: in that it was not just a craze in say,

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Speaker 3: adult focused media in the US in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 3: Though there was that, and we can talk about some examples,

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Speaker 3: but there was a very kid friendly version of the

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Speaker 3: ninja archetype that showed up in a lot of kid

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Speaker 3: focused movies, like, for example, the Three Ninjas series.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I ever saw any of these, but

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Speaker 2: these were like kid Ninjas. This was maybe this was

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Speaker 2: Power Ranger inspired to a certain extent.

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Speaker 3: Possibly I think I only ever saw the first of

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Speaker 3: these movies, never made it to Three Ninjas High Noon

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Speaker 3: at Mega Mountain, but I don't remember that much about it.

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Speaker 3: I think there are three brothers, and there are kids

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Speaker 3: who are learning the ways of the ninja, and some

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Speaker 3: like robbers, come into their house like Home Alone style

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Speaker 3: or something and they use ninja ninja techniques on them?

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Speaker 2: What could be all bad if Victor Wong? Isn't it right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Looking back on ninja movies that I watched, also think

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Speaker 2: a major early influence was that I must have seen

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Speaker 2: this in like my uncle's house. There were sometimes movies playing,

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Speaker 2: like RoboCop that I ended up watching way too early,

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Speaker 2: And I do specifically remember watching at least a big

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Speaker 2: chunk of the nineteen eighty one Manaham Golan directed ninja

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Speaker 2: movie that starred Franco Niro, I believe as a ninja

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Speaker 2: titled Enter the Ninja, and I remember it like horrifying

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Speaker 2: and enthralling me to varying degrees because you had some,

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Speaker 2: you know, a fair amount of like ninja mayhem going on,

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Speaker 2: and then also some rather grotesque moments that I probably

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have seen it at early age.

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Speaker 3: I think that's like a hyper violent movie, isn't it. Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember it being hyper violent, But I also

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Speaker 2: have not rewatched it since I was a kid, so

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Speaker 2: I don't know what was actually violent and what was

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Speaker 2: maybe just ridiculous and a little like unbelievably gory, or

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Speaker 2: if it like holds up as an actual gore fest. Oh.

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Speaker 3: Actually, as far as cartoonified movie Ninja Go, I recently

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Speaker 3: before I knew you were going to want to talk

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Speaker 3: about this on the show, just like last week with

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Speaker 3: my friend Ben, I watched a movie called Ninja three

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Speaker 3: The Domination, which is a sequel to Enter the Ninja's.

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Speaker 2: Right, this is like the third one in that the

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Speaker 2: canon film's Ninja series, Right.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So this entry is about an LA aerobics

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Speaker 3: instructor who gets possessed by the ghost of a ninja

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Speaker 3: hit man who wants revenge against the police who put

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Speaker 3: a stop to his Ninja rampage on a golf course,

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Speaker 3: which took place on a golf course in which he

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Speaker 3: like single handedly destroys a helicopter and a bunch of

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Speaker 3: other stuff. And then the aerobics instructor is possessed by

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Speaker 3: the ghost of the evil Ninja and then falls in

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Speaker 3: love with one of the cops on the Ninja Spirits

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Speaker 3: Naughty list, so uh oh, and then she has to

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Speaker 3: get the ghost purged out of her body by a

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Speaker 3: mystical priest.

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Speaker 1: Or.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I think maybe that the attempt to do that fails,

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Speaker 3: but it's sort of a cross between you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a equal to enter the Ninja. So it's got that

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Speaker 3: kind of sleazy nineteen eighties La van Halen guitar lick

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Speaker 3: ninja movie feeling. But then it's also got elements of

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Speaker 3: the Exorcist, and then it's also a cop movie and

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Speaker 3: also just aerobics, you know, dance aerobics all over the place.

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Speaker 2: I am on board for all of that. That sounds amazing.

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Speaker 2: We might have to consider that for Weird House, in

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Speaker 2: part because on Weird House Cinema we have talked about

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Speaker 2: the movie blood Beat in the past, which has a

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Speaker 2: ghost samurai. So it seems fitting that we should have

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Speaker 2: a film at some point that has a ghost ninja's.

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Speaker 3: Ghost ninja possession.

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Speaker 2: Now, obviously there are tons of additional Western ninja properties

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Speaker 2: we could side here. There's so much kid stuff. Certainly

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Speaker 2: video games are big, some being imports, like I do

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Speaker 2: remember the Shanobi Arcade game, though I don't know how much.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how strong the ninja vibes are in

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Speaker 2: that one. But then eventually you get things like Mortal Kombat,

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Speaker 2: which has you know, some version of Ninja's in them, often,

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Speaker 2: of course with all sorts of crazy colors that that

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Speaker 2: again don't make sense if you're if you're engaging with

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Speaker 2: the idea of ninja as a stealth operative, but if

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Speaker 2: you're engaging within the idea of ninja as a user

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Speaker 2: of magic, then as we'll get into, then I guess

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Speaker 2: Mortal Kombat isn't too unbelievable. And then during junior high,

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Speaker 2: probably like early junior high, it ended up picking up

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Speaker 2: Showgun and reading it, and there was a lot I

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Speaker 2: didn't understand at the time. But then there's like a

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Speaker 2: lot of just you know, ideas about Japanese history and

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Speaker 2: Japanese culture that they're loaded in that volume. And it

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Speaker 2: does contain a very memorable section that involves the shinobi

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Speaker 2: the ninja. So we'll come back to that, because, as

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Speaker 2: it turns out, the novel Showgun has a very important

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Speaker 2: influence on the idea and the popularity of the ninja

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Speaker 2: outside Japan.

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Speaker 3: Well, regarding the idea of the ninja outside of Japan

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Speaker 3: and the word ninja as an enters sort of the

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Speaker 3: English lexic. I came across a really interesting fact in

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Speaker 3: a book that I'm going to reference a bunch of

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Speaker 3: times in this series. It's been one of my main

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Speaker 3: sources here by a British historian named Stephen Turnbull called

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Speaker 3: Ninja Unmasking the Myth. This is one of the best

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Speaker 3: looking historical books and investigating the history of the concept

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Speaker 3: of the ninja in the English language. And what Turnbull

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Speaker 3: says that really shocked me is that the word ninja

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Speaker 3: with its current romanized spelling did not appear in any

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Speaker 3: Japanese English dictionary until the year nineteen seventy four, and

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Speaker 3: there were plenty of Japanese English dictionaries before this, going

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Speaker 3: back to the nineteenth century. Before the mid twentieth century,

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Speaker 3: the favored Japanese pronunciation for the same concept the same

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Speaker 3: kanji idiographs was shinobi mono or shanoby no mono. But

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Speaker 3: there's an alternate pronunciation of the same idiographs nin ninsha

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Speaker 3: or ninja, which became the dominant way of expressing the

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Speaker 3: idea out loud in English in English contexts, at least

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Speaker 3: I guess, beginning in somewhere in the mid twentieth century

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Speaker 3: or the nineteen seventies or so, but I don't know.

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Speaker 3: That's just surprisingly late to me. I've read in a

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Speaker 3: few sources that consciousness of the idea of the shnobi

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Speaker 3: or ninja in English speaking cultures traces in large part

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Speaker 3: to the nineteen sixty seven James Bond movie You Only

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Speaker 3: Live Twice, which is pretty fun, does have some great

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Speaker 3: ninja action, and it is also wildly racially and culturally problematic,

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Speaker 3: but apparently was a big sort of funnel of the

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Speaker 3: idea of the ninja or shanobi into the international market.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, You Only Live Twice definitely a Bond film I

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Speaker 2: saw as a kid, and I was surprised to learn

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Speaker 2: of its historical importance to this topic. It's not a

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Speaker 2: film that has ever stuck in my mind as being like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is important, this is bringing cultures together or anything

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: Oh, but in some ways it kind of is, I

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Speaker 3: mean nick like you know you can. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: to criticize there, but also there are some great scenes

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Speaker 3: of like the ninja training scene where they're like out

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Speaker 3: there practicing all their skills and techniques on the target dummies.

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Speaker 3: It's great.

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Speaker 2: So one of my main sources for this is an

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Speaker 2: excellent and well sided book titled Ninja Attack. True Tales

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Speaker 2: of Assassin, Samurai and Outlaws Outlaws by Heroko Yoda and

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Speaker 2: Matt Alt matt All type referenced on the show before

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Speaker 2: for some of his other writings about Japanese culture and

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Speaker 2: Japanese popular culture. And in this book they point out

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Speaker 2: as well that You Only Lived Twice was the first

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Speaker 2: ninja screen appearance in international cinema. They write that while

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Speaker 2: You Only Live Twice is the first international film concerning ninja,

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Speaker 2: it was directly influenced by the nineteen sixty five film Shinobio,

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Speaker 2: which was in turn inspired by the success of the

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Speaker 2: various ninja short stories of Futaro Yamada, who lived nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty two through two thousand and one. This is a

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Speaker 2: writer who is discovered by Atogawa Rampo, who we've talked

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Speaker 2: about in Weird House Cinema because his writings have been

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Speaker 2: adapted to the screen numerous times.

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Speaker 3: So how did ninjas end up in James Bond.

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Speaker 2: Well, it involves the screenwriter, who was of course Roald Dahl,

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Speaker 2: who lived nineteen sixteen through nineteen ninety. You know, we

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Speaker 2: often associate with Willie walk in The Chocolate Factory and

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Speaker 2: various other works, but he was a screenwriter on You

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Speaker 2: Only Live Twice and apparently went on a research trip

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Speaker 2: to Japan to prepare for this, And while in Japan

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Speaker 2: he watched the movie in question, that nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 2: Ninja film, and realized, well, this is what the screenplay needs,

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Speaker 2: we need ninja and ninja were added. Good choice. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and again you know, popular, big budget film that is

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Speaker 2: exactly the thing that will propel a new concept into

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Speaker 2: the public mindset. Now, this book gets into the overall

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Speaker 2: sort of tangled web of pop culture ninjas and in

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Speaker 2: and out of Japan, going all the way back to

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Speaker 2: things like a seventeen seventy eight kabuki play that involves ninja.

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Speaker 2: And they actually have a lovely flow chart that includes

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Speaker 2: everything from Ninja scroll to kill Bill. I'll come back

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Speaker 2: to more of what they have to say about ninja,

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Speaker 2: popular culture, and ninja fiction here in a bit.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think maybe we should do a rundown of

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Speaker 3: some of the common characteristics of the twentieth century movie Ninja,

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Speaker 3: the international market movie Ninja. So usually this ninja is

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Speaker 3: a stealthy assassin dressed head to toe in cloth coverings,

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Speaker 3: usually black cloth or a black costume, with a mask

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Speaker 3: that covers most of the face except maybe like an

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Speaker 3: opening for the eyes or some other kind of gap

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Speaker 3: in the face covering, but otherwise head to toe, head

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Speaker 3: to toe black cloth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just the iconic idea of a ninja. You

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Speaker 2: can't say the word ninja without picturing that.

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Speaker 3: On some level, what does the ninja do well? The

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Speaker 3: ninja is a master of martial arts combat with a

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Speaker 3: batman style belt of special tools and weapons, often including

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Speaker 3: a grappling hook for climbing, smoke bombs to hide an escape,

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Speaker 3: and pointed metal throwing stars that can be thrown with

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Speaker 3: deadly accuracy.

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Speaker 2: Right along with of course the katana for some sword play,

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Speaker 2: maybe various other little shorter sword, yeah, shorter swords, and

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Speaker 2: various you know, various gadgets has required generally all related

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Speaker 2: to stell then assassination.

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Speaker 3: They are often depicted as capable of almost superhuman acrobatics,

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Speaker 3: bordering on the ability to fly, And I think it's

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Speaker 3: interesting Turnbull actually points this out in his book that

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Speaker 3: it is often within settings that are taken as otherwise realistic,

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Speaker 3: or within fictional settings where magic is not otherwise assumed

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Speaker 3: to exist, that ninja have these apparently supernatural abilities. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not a full fantasy world, it's like realistic setting

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Speaker 3: but the ninjas can basically fly. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get into more on that in a bit.

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Speaker 2: I'd say other aspects of the pop culture ninja is

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Speaker 2: that the ninja there's no like Ninja by night, blank

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Speaker 2: by day. Ninja are generally depicted as being like fanatics,

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Speaker 2: as being completely devoted to their art of stealth and assassination,

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Speaker 2: and in generally and oftentimes they're you know, villains and

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Speaker 2: sometimes secondary villains and a lot of properties, So there's

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Speaker 2: not a lot of effort given to develop their characters

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Speaker 2: outside of the adversary that they're presented as.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes they're presented as members of a sort of

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Speaker 3: secret international brotherhood of some kind that they belong to

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Speaker 3: some corpus or body of similarly trained people. In some cases,

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Speaker 3: I do think there are sort of alter ego you know,

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Speaker 3: Clark Kent Superman ninjas. In fact, I think there is

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Speaker 3: one in Ninja three, the Domination. Oh okay, so I

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Speaker 3: think it pops up from time to time, but I

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Speaker 3: agree that most of the time, in like American movies,

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Speaker 3: it's as if all they ever do is like sneak

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Speaker 3: around and do stealth missions.

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Speaker 2: Right and have great, great eyes. We really want to

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Speaker 2: have really expressive eyes in your cinematic ninjas, you know,

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Speaker 2: because that's all you're going to see of the actor

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Speaker 2: at least, and when they're in ninja.

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Speaker 3: Mode, brows that narrow dramatically. Yeah, there's one more thing

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Speaker 3: I came across in Turnbull that I really liked regarding,

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Speaker 3: like the ninja's obscure tools techniques. There's one that is

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Speaker 3: from a novel by Yamato Futaro, who you mentioned a

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Speaker 3: minute ago is writing these influential ninja stories and novels

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties. This is from a nineteen fifty

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Speaker 3: eight novel called Coca Ninpocho, which Turnbull says is basically

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Speaker 3: a mostly accurate historical setting, but the ninjas within the

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Speaker 3: story can turn their hair into porcupine quills, which they

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Speaker 3: like shoot off and launch his weapons, So like weaponized hair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the dark magic of the ninja. Now I

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Speaker 2: want to come back to Showgun for a second here. Showgun,

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Speaker 2: of course, it was a nineteen seventy five novel. There

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Speaker 2: is a subsequent TV mini series about it based on it,

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Speaker 2: and then there's been a more recent twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: adaptation of Showgun that is quite excellent. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: My wife and I loved it. Everyone I've talked to

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Speaker 2: has really enjoyed it, and they went to great pains

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Speaker 2: with this adaptation to sort of make sure that it

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Speaker 2: was grounded as properly as they could in history and

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Speaker 2: in Japanese culture. Though James Colvell's Showgun is like an

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Speaker 2: adaptation of history, I guess you would say it is.

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Speaker 2: It is a work of fiction based on history, written

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Speaker 2: by an outsider who who was interested in these things.

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Speaker 2: But there is, of course this this pivotal sequence in

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Speaker 2: the novel and in adaptations that involved the ninja, and

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Speaker 2: it has been argued that Clavel helped introduce the concept

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Speaker 2: of ninja into the West. I've also read it argue

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Speaker 2: that like, for a while, this was a very successful novel,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people read it like a lot of

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Speaker 2: what many Westerners knew about about Japanese history in Japanese

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Speaker 2: culture was based on this book. You know, It's like

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Speaker 2: it was. It kind of had the same role as

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Speaker 2: you only live twice in this regard, a very popular

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Speaker 2: work of media that was for many people their their

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Speaker 2: first or primary exposure to this different culture and different

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Speaker 2: time period. Again, the novel's based on history, it's not

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Speaker 2: one accurate. I think the recent TV series does a

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Speaker 2: pretty good job of updating everything as far as I

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Speaker 2: understand it, and so the ninja or shinobi that we

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Speaker 2: see in it, they seem like they seem to have

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Speaker 2: done what they could to sort of ground it more properly.

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Speaker 2: Though I think they're still sort of reflecting the trappings

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Speaker 2: of the ninja's pop culture glow. So they're not all

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Speaker 2: dressed in black, and they're certainly not wearing white or

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Speaker 2: you know, bright Mortal Kombat colors, but they are they

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Speaker 2: are more recognizable as pop culture ninjas. Quick note on

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Speaker 2: the word ninja plural and singular is ninja, but I

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Speaker 2: am inevitably going to keep saying ninja's from time to time,

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Speaker 2: So my apologies.

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking about that exact thing. I realized, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's ninja is plural, but I bet I've already said ninja's.

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Speaker 3: I can't stop myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But on the Showgun issue, I turned to editor

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Speaker 2: Henry Smith's book Learning from Showgun Japanese History in Western Fantasy.

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Speaker 2: This is put out as part of the program in

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Speaker 2: Asian Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara in

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Speaker 2: the editor and the authors here point out that ninjas

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Speaker 2: in the novel Showgun Quote reflect the romanticization of the

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Speaker 2: ninja in modern Japanese popular entertainment. So the idea here

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Speaker 2: that what we see in the novel and inevitably in

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Speaker 2: any adaptation, we see the ninja as this violent death

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Speaker 2: cult of fanatical assassins. And as we'll be discussing, there's

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Speaker 2: some truth to that, to their role in assassination and

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Speaker 2: stealth and even military endeavors. But there's a lot more

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Speaker 2: of the myth in the legend here in this usage

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Speaker 2: of the ninja than anything.

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Speaker 3: Else, and the overtaking of historical fact by sort of

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Speaker 3: myth and storytelling and romanticization of the ninja, that that

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Speaker 3: tradition that goes way back. Actually it's not just a

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Speaker 3: twentieth century thing.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just a Western appropriation of it or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. Like it would be easier to sort

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Speaker 2: of sum it all up if it were like, well,

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Speaker 2: there's the Japanese reality of what ninjas were, and then

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Speaker 2: westerner's got a hold of it, and of course they

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Speaker 2: transformed it. There is some Western transformation of it involved,

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Speaker 2: but for the most part, this transformation of the historic

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Speaker 2: ninja into the pop cultural trope of the ninja. This

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Speaker 2: all occurred within Japanese popular culture well in advance of

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Speaker 2: anything James Bond got up to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One thing I think we should establish early, and

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Speaker 3: this is something that is a major theme of this

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Speaker 3: book by Turnbull that I've been referencing, is that apparently

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Speaker 3: a huge amount of what is commonly said about the ninja,

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Speaker 3: even in apparently authoritative books and museums and other historical sources,

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Speaker 3: is based on text traditions that do not necessarily reflect

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Speaker 3: what really happened in history. So there is sort of

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Speaker 3: a ninja tradition, or maybe to be more phonetically accurate,

385
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Speaker 3: a shanobi tradition that is Japanese in origin and does

386
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Speaker 3: in many ways go back hundreds of years, but still

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Speaker 3: may not be based on real figures and practices in

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Speaker 3: history that the term shinobi originally referred to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Like in the past, I've heard people be

390
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Speaker 2: as firm as to say the ninja didn't really exist,

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Speaker 2: the ninja are a myth, and I think you could

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Speaker 2: basically say that that's a true statement to some degree,

393
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Speaker 2: Like the ninja as we see them in popular culture

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Speaker 2: didn't really exist, but they are based on a thing

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Speaker 2: that did, and it's fun to get into that and

396
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 2: try and piece apart, like what was real, what was

397
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Speaker 2: probably real, what isn't an embellishment, and why does that

398
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: embellishment mean. In the book by Yoda and All, they

399
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Speaker 2: point out that, like basically the term ninja or even snob,

400
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: we're dealing with a colloquial term that can be translated

401
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: to things like, you know, a clandestine person or one

402
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: who is invisible. But historically they would have been known

403
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 2: by a whole bunch of different colloquial terms, including, but

404
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: not limited to, a few of these examples. So there's

405
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Speaker 2: ninjutsu tuska, which means like a practitioner of ninjutsu the

406
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: art of stealth. There's one called omitsu, which would have

407
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: meant like the secret service. And then there are a

408
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: couple here I want to include that I think are

409
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Speaker 2: neat because they kind of hint at some of the other,

410
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: like non stereotypical modern ninja things they would have been

411
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Speaker 2: up to. There's one which we have translated to the shortcutters,

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Speaker 2: which I rather like, you know, it's like you have

413
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 2: some sort of a political, military, or social problem, and

414
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Speaker 2: traditional honorable means of dealing with those problems are not achievable.

415
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Speaker 2: So what do you need. You need a shortcut, and

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Speaker 2: that's why you seek out the shortcutters.

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Speaker 3: That's very cool.

418
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Speaker 2: There's another one that I believe is ukami that I've

419
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: seen translated as the silent watchers, And I think that's

420
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Speaker 2: also important here because while, yeah, while while the historic

421
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: ninjas would have involved themselves or been hired to deal

422
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Speaker 2: in military and assassination type scenarios, they also might have

423
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: been involved in entirely non violent affairs as well, things

424
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Speaker 2: that we might typically describe more as like straight up

425
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Speaker 2: spy and espionage business.

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Speaker 3: And often I think I've seen the word ukami translated

427
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: as spy. Yeah, And that leads back to how I

428
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: think many of the earliest understandings of the ninja or

429
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Speaker 3: shanobi have to do with spying and infiltration in warfare,

430
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Speaker 3: and so to situate the classical understanding of the nin

431
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: within a conceptual context, I wanted to talk briefly about

432
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: the precedent of using spies and infiltrators in war and

433
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 3: Turnbull does this by making reference in his book to

434
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: the classic Chinese text The Art of War by sun

435
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 3: Zu or Turnbull calls him sun Z. I guess they're

436
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: different ways of pronouncing the name, but I think I'm

437
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: gonna say sun Zu because that's more familiar to me.

438
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 3: So this is a classic Chinese text, usually dated to

439
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: the fifth century BCE. Apparently many of the authors of

440
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 3: the Tokugawa period who wrote the Tales of the Shinobi

441
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: establishing a lot of this lore, would have been very

442
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: familiar with Sunzu in the Art of War and other

443
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: sort of warfare manuals of this type. And apparently Sunzu

444
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: talks about the concept of a secret agent, referring to

445
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 3: it with the Chinese character khan, which means the space

446
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 3: between two objects or discord. So this refers to the

447
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 3: use of secret agents to undermine alliances and sew division

448
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: within within societies or within within armies. And sons who

449
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: actually sort of lays out a taxonomy of five different

450
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: kinds of secret agents. I thought this was interesting. So

451
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: first of all, you've got your incon or native agents.

452
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: These are villagers of an enemy's province or country. He says,

453
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: you can't really expect them to do like risky work

454
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 3: or carry out difficult missions, so they are mainly useful

455
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: for just gathering general information about the enemy's disposition, maybe

456
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: like where the enemy is or the direction of travel

457
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 3: and so forth. Then after that you've got nikon, which

458
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 3: are inside agents. These are officials of the enemy government

459
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: drafted to your side by bribes or pay. These agents

460
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: can supply much better quality information and they are especially

461
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 3: useful for creating discord within enemy ranks. And if you

462
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: want to identify these people, you can look for officials

463
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 3: within the government who have been slighted in some way,

464
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 3: like maybe being insulted or passed over for promotion. Find

465
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: someone who has power who thinks that your enemy has

466
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 3: treated them unfairly. After that you've got yukon or friendly agents.

467
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 3: This apparently refers to double agents. So the enemy has

468
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 3: spies as well you are. If you want a double agent,

469
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 3: you can recruit the enemy's spy to actually spy for

470
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 3: you or to feed false information to their masters. Classic

471
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: double agents set up. Yeah, then there's one called chi khan,

472
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: which means dead agents. This one is interesting and pretty cold.

473
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: It's the idea of expendable allies who can unknowingly be

474
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 3: given false information which they believe to be true, and

475
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: then sent deliberately into enemy capture, so when information is

476
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 3: extracted from them, it will mislead the enemy command.

477
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is cold.

478
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: But then finally you get to Chokan, the last of

479
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 3: the five, who are called living agents, and what Turnbull

480
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 3: says about them is the following quote. They go boldly

481
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: into enemy territory and return with valuable information. For this purpose,

482
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: men who are pre eminent in intelligence are selected. They

483
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: have the ability to withstand great hardship and have the

484
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: social skills to gain access to those of the enemy

485
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: who are closest to the seat of power. These are

486
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: the classic spies envisaged by the ninja myth. So to

487
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 3: be clear, these are not being called ninja or anything

488
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 3: in this context. This is a much earlier work, but

489
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: it's establishing this sort of principle within warfare and within

490
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: the taxonomy of spies and secret agents, that there's already

491
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: this idea of this like James Bond spy kind of figure,

492
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: or this ninja, this person who is who is an

493
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: agent who can strike out on their own, who can

494
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: act and has some kind of like has capability, has powers,

495
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: and they can go into hostile territory and carry out

496
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 3: a mission to gather information or sow discord or do

497
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 3: whatever is needed.

498
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course, in all of this, sun Zoo

499
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: is codifying like realities that already existed in warfare. One

500
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: thing that Yoda and all point out is you can

501
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: look into various old texts and some ancient texts, and

502
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: you can see allusions to this kind of spycraft. There

503
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: are apparently examples from the Old Testament that also involve,

504
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: you know, something you could interpret us as spy work

505
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: and espionage, like you go out on this mission, do

506
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: this thing, you know, so, you know, again codifying realities

507
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: that were already present, but meaningfully doing so meaningfully and

508
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,239
Speaker 2: in a very influential way that with the ripples are

509
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: going to spread of course, out of China, through Japan

510
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: and ultimately globally.

511
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: I do think it's kind of interesting that if you

512
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: think beyond the concept of just the ninja and to

513
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: the broader idea of like any character in fiction who

514
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: is depicted as having like peak abilities in almost every domain,

515
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 3: like they know everything, they're the smartest, they speak all

516
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: these languages, they're you know, unbeatable in hand to hand combat.

517
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: I would say the most common profession this character has

518
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: is spy. Isn't that kind of interesting?

519
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: It is interesting? Yeah, I mean on one level, I

520
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: think it it's a realization of the intense level of

521
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: danger that individuals like this would put themselves in. Like

522
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: even if they're you know, not involved in an actual

523
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: like ninja movie fight and stealth sequence, you know, it's

524
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: like the intense danger of engaging in that level of

525
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: deception and betrayal, you know, like on just like a

526
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: social level and a legal level, like you're in you're

527
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: engaging in a high level of danger. Now, another interesting

528
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: thing we didn't mention this when we talked about the

529
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: trope of the ninja in popular culture, But another thing

530
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: you frequently see you will see examples of ninja is who,

531
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: you know, use modern gadgets and or are robots or cyborgs.

532
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: There's a lot of fun to be had there. But

533
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: a lot of times the ninja is depicted as an

534
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: operative even in like a modern or nineteen eighties nineteen

535
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: ninety setting, who depends in large part on traditional even

536
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: archaic weapons used with great skill. But like if a

537
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: ninja needs to you know, get past a you know,

538
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: computer console on a security door. You're more likely to

539
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: see that movie Ninja throw a throwing star through it, right,

540
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 2: or shoot it with a bow and arrow, as opposed

541
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: to get down there and stick in a USB stick

542
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: or start you know, hacking the computer system.

543
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. I really have a picture in my mind of

544
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 3: somebody like chucking a throwing star into a computer and

545
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: like sparks shoot out of it. Yeah, that's that's how

546
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: you get past security.

547
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: But an important point that Yoda and altamaic about the

548
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: the the myth of the Ninja and the modern idea

549
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: of the Ninja versus the historic reality as we understand it,

550
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: is that these individuals would not have been picky about

551
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: like what level of technology that they used. In fact,

552
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: they would have used like the latest advancements available, such

553
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: as gunpowder for example. So it's kind of just a

554
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: virtue of us spinning modern tales about an older pop

555
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: cultural idea than anything like. So, yeah, if the Ninja

556
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: had access to James Bond spy gadgets, they would use

557
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: those James Bond spy gadgets like they are like any

558
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: espionage operative out there. They'll make use of the best

559
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: tools available to pull off the deed.

560
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: Now, another interesting way of understanding that the ninja character archetype,

561
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 3: by contrast, is something that the Turnbull highlights in the book,

562
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: which is the idea of the ninja as the quote

563
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: dark antithesis of the samurai, another historical character. Now, again,

564
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 3: this is something that is not necessarily a historical reality.

565
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: This is something that is That is how the ninja

566
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: archetype is reflected within storytelling and tradition, not necessarily historically real,

567
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: but within these traditions you can see that see the

568
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: contrast here. The samurai are warriors who are nobles. The

569
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 3: ninja are often represented as commoners. The samurai are depicted

570
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: as loyal and honorable, the ninja as treacherous and mercenary.

571
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: The samurai fight their enemy face to face, while the

572
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: ninja sneak up on people, you know that, stab people

573
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: in the back. And as a spy, the ninja must

574
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: always survive the mission at all costs to deliver the

575
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: gathered intelligence, whereas the samurai is very often depicted as

576
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: dying selflessly in battle and maintaining having an honorable death.

577
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: And so in all these ways, within the storytelling tradition,

578
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: the ninja could often be seen as positioned as like

579
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: the the the negative mirror image of the samurai warrior trope.

580
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that that is key, and it

581
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: does seem to get into some historic realities like, for instance,

582
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: the idea that that that apparently ninja would have very

583
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: often been lower born men and women as opposed to

584
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: warrior class individuals. So there is this like the social

585
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 2: distinction there. But and then also when it comes down

586
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: to what stories are told and celebrated, the stories of

587
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: the samurai were celebrated and told and retold, and legends

588
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: were told about them far ahead of anything like this

589
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: with the ninja. The ninja would would have been essentially

590
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: been the dirty tricks department for any feudal lord looking

591
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: to solve some sort of again political, military, or social

592
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: problem that they couldn't their wise approach, and it was

593
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: not something that you would have talked about in polite society.

594
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: Like the shnobi and the various colloquial terms would have

595
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: been synonymous with trouble. They weren't to be celebrated, even

596
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 2: if you prize their skills secretly, and in employing them

597
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: you would have hoped to retain plausible deniability over whatever

598
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: was about to happen. In general, we may we may

599
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: get into some you know, some some examples to the contrary,

600
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: but in general like this, this was this was the

601
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: dirty tricks department.

602
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: But yes, to come back to your point, despite the

603
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: later profusion of valorizing tales, you know, often at the time, people, uh, people,

604
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 3: people don't feel so excited or proud about I don't know,

605
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: deception in warfare or secretive military activities, even if they

606
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 3: are necessary to winning.

607
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah, better to celebrate the tale of the noble

608
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: and victorious samurai than the the shnov that you pay

609
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: to go in and stab somebody in the back. Now,

610
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: I want to at a quick note, I mentioned men

611
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 2: and women, and on the subject of female ninja, they

612
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: did apparently exist, though the reality was likely nowhere near

613
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: what image may be summoned in your head here. You know,

614
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: the various pop culture ideas of a female ninja. Yoda

615
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: and all point out that there's no indication that any

616
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 2: female ninja ever engaged in combat of any kind, or

617
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: again that we have no direct evidence or writings of that.

618
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: But female spies at the very least would have been

619
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: able to move through parts of society that would have

620
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: been less accessible or inaccessible to men, or move in

621
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: ways that men would easily overlook. They might disguise themselves

622
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: as entertainers, as prostitutes, as household staff, and of particular note,

623
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: as transient Mico holy women. So these would have been

624
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: the modern version is this. They tend to Shinto shrines

625
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: and so forth. But this would have been like a

626
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: loose knit order, so not a lot of like you know,

627
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: you can't like check the papers as much of these individuals,

628
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: and they would have traveled around, So it's a great

629
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: cover story. If for any female ninjas, female spies that

630
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: would have been utilized, it would have been an ideal cover.

631
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: And these are sometimes referred to as the kono ichi,

632
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: but very little is known about them. The use of

633
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: female spies may have been considered even more taboo than

634
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 2: just using spies or shnovi in general. And we really

635
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: only have legends about a single named female ninja. This

636
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: would have been the sixteenth century figure Mochizuki chi Yojo.

637
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: It is thought that she was a real person, but

638
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 2: we don't even know the like one correct pronunciation of

639
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: her name. But still it was probably a real person.

640
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: Based on what I've been reading. But anyway, all of

641
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 2: this makes sense because again, this is about not playing

642
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: by the rules. This is about breaking the rules, doing

643
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: the taboo thing in order to achieve your military political goals.

644
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: And so in that case, you know, all cards are

645
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: on the table there, Rob.

646
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 3: So you found something about like the earliest references to

647
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: ninjas in their all black costume.

648
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this was really interesting because you know,

649
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: the iconic vision of the of the ninja, as we've

650
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: been discussing, is that of the ninja and all black,

651
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: you know, blending into the shadows, creeping along the rooftops

652
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: and so forth, like you just you can't separate that

653
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: from the pop culture idea of the ninja. But this seemed,

654
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: this idea that they wore all black and trooped around

655
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 2: like this apparently did not emerge in Japan until around

656
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: eighteen seventeen, or at least that's when we see the

657
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: first known print, the first known image of a ninja

658
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 2: wearing this sort of garb, and it actually ties into

659
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: a very important figure in Japanese art history, Katsushi Kuhoku Sai, who,

660
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with his name, you're very familiar

661
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: with at least his most famous piece, and that is

662
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 2: the great wave of kind of Gatwa. This artist lives

663
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 2: seventeen sixty through eighteen forty nine.

664
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 3: And so what do we see in his woodblock featuring

665
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 3: a ninja.

666
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: Well, we see something that is just instantly recognizable as

667
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: a modern ninja. Like you could not mistake this for

668
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: anything else, right, because it is a man all in black,

669
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: everything covered except his eyes, and he's climbing a rope

670
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: and you just know he's climbing. You know, he's climbing

671
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 2: somewhere he's not supposed to be, or he's returning from

672
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: that place having assassinated somebody, or having stolen some important

673
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 2: scrolls or something to that. To that effect, Now, where

674
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: does this come from? I mean, I'm you would be tempted,

675
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 2: and I think would be very understandable to guess, well,

676
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: you're just you're making an assumption that if you're up

677
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 2: to secretive things, you might wear all black to blend in, right,

678
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense, and it it has been

679
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,479
Speaker 2: pointed out that, you know, it would be ridiculous to say,

680
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: no historic ninja's ever dressed like this, because in the

681
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: art of espionage, it you know, it might make sense

682
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 2: to do so at some point, but it's been interpreted

683
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: that what we see here is essentially like a use

684
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: or a repurpose of what in Japanese theater is known

685
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: as a kuroko, which is someone that is dressed all

686
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: in black, essentially a stage hand that is there to

687
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: aid in the production in ways that you know, that

688
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: don't distract from the key performance. And this is something

689
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: we see in theater arts around the world as well.

690
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: You see it in puppetry, for example, you want an

691
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: invisible puppeteer, then you have them just wear all black

692
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: and black over their faces as well, so they blend

693
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: into the background and don't distract from the central performance.

694
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I've done theater, you know, people working backstage

695
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 3: were dressed in all black, and I guess the idea

696
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 3: is you're you're just less likely to be seen that way.

697
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, hern Bul talks about this that in traditional

698
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 3: kabuki theater, there were these figures, the corogo or the coroko,

699
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 3: who would wear all black to like move scenery around

700
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 3: or maybe like help the actors change costume within view

701
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 3: of the audience or something. But they would be dressed

702
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 3: in black and they would have a mask over their face,

703
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: and this would symbolize it would not only make them

704
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: stand out less visually, but also apparently would like symbolize invisibility.

705
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what we're looking at here is interesting. It's

706
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 2: kind of a mash up, a visual mashup of the

707
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 2: idea of the invisible ninja and the mostly invisible presence

708
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: of the stage hand. And of course the stage hand

709
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 2: is literally manipulating reality, but in a way that is

710
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 2: supposed to be secondary to the performers. Also interesting to

711
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: think about that a lot of these productions are going

712
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: to involve samurai, you know, so you're going to have

713
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 2: like the samurai in the forefront doing all the really

714
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: important dramatic stuff, but in the background there are these

715
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: almost invisible characters who are doing something else, something that

716
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: that we're not meant to know about.

717
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, but of course, the ironic thing about like dressing

718
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: in a full black costume head to toe is that

719
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 3: if somebody saw you and you were wearing this costume

720
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 3: you were you would instantly stand out in reality, like

721
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: with not in the context of a stage play or something.

722
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: And so yeah, it's it's a contradiction to what would

723
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 3: actually be said in most of the texts that talk

724
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 3: about ninja or shanobi going way back, they say, oh,

725
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 3: you know what these people would do is wear a disguise,

726
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,959
Speaker 3: so you blend in with the people that you're trying

727
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: to infiltrate. Yeah.

728
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: So yeah, in general, when we think about what would

729
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: a ninja look like, what would a shnobi look like,

730
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,479
Speaker 2: they would just look like anybody else. The best way

731
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 2: to move from point A to point B through the

732
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: people is to look like the people, and so that's

733
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: what they would have done. I guess James Bond does this.

734
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: I can't remember. James Bond's always wearing it. He's always

735
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: going places where you wear a tuxedo anyways, so I

736
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: guess it's like he's doing that. But you know, in general,

737
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: like a spy is going to want to blend into

738
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: the crowd. They don't want to stand out. You know,

739
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: It's that you want to be the least interesting looking

740
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: person in the room because nobody is supposed to know

741
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 2: you're there.

742
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: I guess it actually highlights a tension between the reality

743
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: of intelligence gathering and spy work and the sort of

744
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 3: the media demands, which is like, when you want to

745
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 3: read a spy story, you want it to be the

746
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: most thrilling and exciting thing possible. So you want the

747
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: spy hero to be like to stand out, to be

748
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 3: notable and exciting in every way, And in reality, if

749
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: you were doing spy work, you would want to be

750
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 3: the least exciting, least notable looking person on earth.

751
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely so. I guess at this point we might summarize,

752
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: as we kind of reached towards the end of this episode,

753
00:43:53,400 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: that the Ninja is there's a historical like bedrock, and

754
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: then there is all of this fiction and legend making

755
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: and mythology on top of that. And one of the

756
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: additional challenges here is that there's there's less historical record

757
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: down there on the bedrock than one would like. There's

758
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: a lot more fiction and legend making, and it can

759
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: make things things difficult. It can make it difficult to

760
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: sort of try to weed out what exactly is the

761
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: historic reality of the Shanoby. And then these various groups

762
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: that are described as Shanoby and there apparently are according

763
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: to Yoda and A there are like three different ways

764
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 2: of sort of looking at why this is the case.

765
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: And the first is something that we've touched on already,

766
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: and that is that, okay, if if Shanoby operatives were

767
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: generally common born dirty tricks specialists who were you know,

768
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: taboo to use and not something you'd brag about, they're

769
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: totally not on the same level of cultural esteem and

770
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: power as the samurai warrior class. So the samurai are

771
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: going to get all the stories and the legends and

772
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: the tales at least during their initial that the key

773
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: period of operations here in the Ninja are going to

774
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: be ignored for the most part. Now, another important thing

775
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: to keep in mind is that the Ninja would have

776
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: inevitably been a secretive bunch. They were working in the shadow,

777
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: they existed under the radar, and Yoda and Auld actually

778
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: signed an individual by the name of Musque Hatsumi, the

779
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: last living descendant of the Tokukushi school of ninja, who

780
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: stated that quote, if one can know the truth about ninjutsu,

781
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: it isn't really ninjutsu. So this reminds me a bit

782
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixty seven Japanese crime thriller Branded to Kill,

783
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: which is a very stylish noir action picture about assassins.

784
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: But in that movie, which again is very much work

785
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 2: of fiction, that's not to be taken in reality, it's

786
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: very surreal in some ways. But in that fiction, there's

787
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 2: like this ranking of assassins, and there's supposedly a number

788
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 2: one assassin, like the best assassin in the world of

789
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: Japanese crime. But they are almost like a ghost. They

790
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 2: might not even exist, or perhaps they've kind of transcended

791
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: traditional existence by being the best at what they do.

792
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do like this idea, and I think

793
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: there may be is something to acknowledge there that you're

794
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: dealing with the secret of organization that wouldn't want there

795
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: to be a bunch of records about what they did

796
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: and what they're doing. They would have wanted to remain

797
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 2: in the shadow. And then the third point they make

798
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: is that during the heyday of the Sengoku era, the

799
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: warring States of fourteen sixty seven through fifteen seventy three,

800
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: roughly the ninja were not fun. They were synonymous with

801
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: trouble and unrest. Again coming back to the idea of

802
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: shinobi as an adjective as well, And it was only later,

803
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: during the comparable piece and stability of say the Edo

804
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: period sixteen oh three through eighteen sixty eight, that new

805
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: generations had the luxury of turning and looking back to

806
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: the horrors of the past to spin out new tales

807
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: of their stealthy exploits for entertainment purposes.

808
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think maybe we are out of time for

809
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: part one, but there's a lot more to say about

810
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: the ninja, trying to unravel the historical complexities, the differences

811
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: between what we know and what is more likely some

812
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: kind of historical fiction or invented tradition, untangling those differences,

813
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 3: as well as getting into some of the great anecdotes

814
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: and stories about historical alleged historical Ninja, as well as

815
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 3: maybe some of the science of their tools and tricks.

816
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can definitely spin off some ninja

817
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: science in a subsequent episode. So excited to get into

818
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: that later on. But we have a lot more to cover,

819
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: various named ninjas of history and legend worth talking about

820
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: some more about just how you know this, this interwoven

821
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: idea of the ninja comes to fruition and so forth,

822
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 2: So keep on the lookout for that. By the way,

823
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: that book that I mentioned by Yoda and Alt Ninja Attack,

824
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: this is one of three books that they put out.

825
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: The other two are on Yo Kai and Yuri. If

826
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: you look these up, you're going to notice that it

827
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: has some very flashy, fun illustrations on the cover. I

828
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: believe that the illustrator is Utaka Kondo, and it has

829
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: like a very fun manga look to everything. But these

830
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: are very informative, very well cited texts. I highly recommend them.

831
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 2: There are a lot of fun that the Yo Kai book.

832
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: I read with my son. We really got into that one.

833
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, you'll learn a lot about Japanese culture and history.

834
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: So anyway, we're going to go and close out here,

835
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: but write in. We'd love to hear from you if

836
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: you have any thoughts on anything we discussed here, including

837
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: your first exposures to the wonderful world of the of

838
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: the pop culture Ninja. Where did what? What? Where? Was it?

839
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: What did you see? Was it a video game? Was

840
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: it a TV show? Was it a Japanese film? Uh?

841
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: We we want to know. We're very interested in this

842
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: in the global legend of the Ninja.

843
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 3: Did anybody out there ever beat Ninja Gaiden? Oh?

844
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: Man, I don't think. I don't think I played that one,

845
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: but that is another huge ninja video game franchise.

846
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: Of note, we accept your tall tales about how you

847
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 3: were almost to the last stage but then kept getting

848
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: knocked off the ledge by that thing that spawns over

849
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 3: and over.

850
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 2: Now, this is this one that you could actually beat,

851
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: because I know there have been some of the In fact,

852
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: I think there's a teenage meaning Ninja Turtle game for

853
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: like any s that it was only later that that

854
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: people realize, oh, you couldn't actually make some pivotal jump.

855
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 2: That is, nobody could actually beat it.

856
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: I don't know we've talked about this before. Yeah, I

857
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 3: remember that, but I don't know about Ninja, and I

858
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 3: just remember it being hard.

859
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: They used to make the game, those games so hard.

860
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 2: I did not miss it. Some people were nostalgic for

861
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: impossible games. I occasionally play one of these and I'm like, no,

862
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 2: I want to I want to be able to beat

863
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: this and move on from it. This is not a

864
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 2: lifelong struggle I'm signing up for.

865
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm with you there.

866
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: I don't know.

867
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: People play video games for different reasons, I guess, but

868
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: if I play video game, I'm not looking to test

869
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 3: my metal. I'm just like I'm trying to relax.

870
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I want to feel like a competent Ninja

871
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: in this video game, not an incompetent one. I didn't

872
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: sign up for a bunch of ninja fails.

873
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there were a lot of those in that anyway. Okay,

874
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 3: so I guess you know. We're wrapping up for today,

875
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 3: but we'll see you next time.

876
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 2: Uh.

877
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 3: Huge, thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

878
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

879
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

880
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

881
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

882
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

884
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.