1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. We are live outside the 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Carlton County Courthouse and you should have been in the courtroom. 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: So much went down in the last hours right behind us. 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: And to see Alex Murdock sitting there at the table, 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: you would think not a thing had happened. But that 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: is entirely not true. I mean, it's he grace. This 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Series leven. First of all, have 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: you ever heard of a Freudian slip? Well, you're about 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: to hear one right now. Take a listen to our 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: cut seven. You testified that Alex said on the video 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: captured by audio that it was so bad I did 13 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: him so bad. That's what you testified to yesterday, Yes, 14 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: or that is what I testified to him. Now, are 15 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: you one hundred percent confidence that Alex said I did 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: him so bad rather than they did him so bad? 17 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: I had one hundred percent confident him what I heard 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: and I interpreted him and saying, okay, you are hearing 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 1: a cross examination of a state's witness. The defense tried 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: so long and so hard to tell this witness he 21 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: didn't hear what he heard Alex Berdyke saying in tears, 22 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: I did him Paul my son so bad. Now listen 23 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: to this our cut eight. There was a mental note 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: that it was definitely something that we needed to follow 25 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: up on and act at a later time. The father 26 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: the only one in the circle, and he says, I 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: did him so bad and intelliger You even wrote it 28 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: down on a piece of paper. I don't recall if 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: I actually made a physical note of it or not sure, 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: your honor. We'd like to play it again at one 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: third speed to slow it down. So did you hear? They? Then? No, 32 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: Sure I did not. No matter how they tried with 33 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: this witness, he would not give in to the defense. 34 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to make sense of 35 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: what just went down behind me, just as we were 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: all coming out of the courtroom, they had a former 37 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: Secret Service member from the US Secret Service and formerly 38 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: of the Columbia PD. But I want to address that 39 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: SlowMo replay of what Alex Murdoch said. It's caught on 40 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: body cam. Wendy Patrick joining me, California Prosecutor, Wendy, I 41 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: wish you had been in the courtroom. This witness was 42 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: describing Alex smardog breaking down in tears, and as part 43 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: of his blubbering, he said I did him so bad, 44 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: and the defense tried over and over to get the 45 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: witness to say no. He said they did him so bad, 46 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: not I did him so bad. But the witness never 47 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: gave in, Windy Patrick, that's exactly right, nor would the witness, 48 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: given this witness is trained to listen to the words exactly. 49 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: That wouldn't have been something the witness would have needed 50 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: to write down. It's so explosive, and you heard exactly that, 51 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: there was no question as to what was said, and 52 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: slowing it down it's even more significant and even easier 53 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: to hear. And can I tell you something to Cheryl 54 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: McCullum joining me, Crimes Saying expert, forensic expert, founder director 55 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case re Shorts Institute. Cheryl, I found 56 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: myself literally sitting on the edge of my seat. I 57 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: scooched forward, punched forward so I could put my ear 58 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: to what I was hearing in the courtroom when they 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: did that SloMo, I mean I closed my eyes. I'm like, 60 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: did he say they did Paul so bad when he 61 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: was murdered? I mean, the whole courtroom, Sheryl, you've been there, 62 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: you could have heard a pen drop. What do you 63 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: make of it? Well, first of all, the word ah 64 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: and day, so don't found anything alike. Number two, If 65 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: he used ah, that's gonna be a confessional. If he 66 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: used the day, then he's saying there was more than 67 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: one person. Why would he say that at that time 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: he didn't know two separate weapons were used. So again 69 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: it seems like to me he's in both the knowledge 70 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: there either one of those words, it's been a helpless Well, 71 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: I can tell you that witness sat there with a 72 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: stone face and the whole courtroom hung on his words. 73 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: Let me ask our New York control room, because you 74 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: play cut eight one more time, I want you to 75 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: hear it just the way we heard it in the 76 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: court rang There was a mental note that it was 77 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: definitely something that we needed to follow up on. And actually, 78 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: at a later time, the father the only one in 79 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: the circle and he says, I didn't so bad, And 80 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: you can't tell a jerry. You even wrote it down 81 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: on a piece of I don't recall if I actually 82 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: made a physical note of it or not. Sir, your honor, 83 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: we'd like to play it again at one third speed 84 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: to slow it down. So did you hear they? Then? No? 85 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: Sure I did not. Man, I was looking right at 86 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: that witness and I was thinking, what is he going 87 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: to say? And what I'm seeing here is the same 88 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: attack that we saw yesterday. For instance, we heard a 89 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: lot about bloody footprints yesterday have been contaminated. You know, 90 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: it's almost like a TV drama where the defense says, well, 91 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: shouldn't there be bloody footprints? And the state says there 92 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: are bloody footprints. So the defense then says, well, they 93 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: were contaminated. So we see that happening again today, that 94 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: same attack, because we hear the video and then the 95 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: attack becomes well, you didn't write it down, did you. Well, 96 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: of course the witness didn't write it down. It was 97 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: all on bodycam video. Guys joining me a if very 98 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: well known psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 99 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: You can find her an Angela Arnold, m D. Doctor Angie, 100 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You know I've thrown 101 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: around the term with my lay person's understanding of it, 102 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: a Freudian slip. Now. I didn't pay very much attention 103 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: to Sigmund freud until the twins turned four, and then 104 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: I started believing pretty much everything he said. But please 105 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: explain the meaning of a Freudian slip, Nancy. In very 106 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: simple terms, a Freudian slip is a slip of the tongue, 107 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: but it reveals something that someone is unconsciously thinking. So 108 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: this man is upset. We hear him crying, and he 109 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: has a slip of the tongue That reveals something that 110 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: is going on in his unconscious mind. It is very important. 111 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: It is a very important clue. So I want to 112 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: circle back to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Why 113 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: Bad Looks So Good. You can find out Wendy Patrick, PhD. 114 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Wendy explain what happened in that core And because I 115 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: can tell you I wasn't the only one on the 116 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: edge of my seat. The jarars, every one of them 117 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: were looking at the replay. They were listening. They were 118 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: looking right at the witness to find out if he 119 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: was going to crack. Oh, that's exactly right. And that's 120 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: the benefit you have of actually being in the courtroom 121 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: and seeing these witnesses and the defendant in the flesh. 122 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: The jurors are able to gauge his reaction. Now he's 123 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: technically not an exhibit, but you can imagine they're imagining 124 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: what they would feel seeing their loved ones covered with blood, 125 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: listening back to the statements they say, wondering if they 126 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: would ever accidentally admit committing a murder. So these are 127 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: very powerful statements and observations that they're able to make firsthand, 128 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: just like you are. You're on the edge of their seats. 129 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: I'm willing to bet they are too. Time Stories with 130 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace and Emerson with me seeing your investigative reporter 131 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: WCIV ABC, and I was just talking to all the 132 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: guests about that SloMo replay. I saw you in the 133 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: courtroom when everything was going down. Literally everyone was sitting 134 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: on the edge of their seats. I could get one 135 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: inch closer to that refle and I was thinking, after 136 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: all this time, we've been talking about Alex Murlock saying 137 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: I did him so bad. I did Paul, my son 138 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: that just got murdered. I did him so bad, And 139 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: now on SloMo, we're going to hear that he really 140 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: said they did him so bad. I couldn't believe that's 141 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: what was happening. Explain to everyone you had a bird's 142 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: eye view of it. What went down? Well, I was, 143 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: and I was right there leaning in with everybody else, 144 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: I think, and we were looking at the jurors. We 145 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: really wanted to see exactly how they were going to 146 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: be taking this information and sort of pivoting back and 147 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: forth and looking at the senior sled Agent Croft at 148 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: the same time, seeing if he was going to change 149 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: his decision about what he heard, and he did not. 150 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: He stood stood his ground on what he heard and 151 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: said this is what I heard. And Griffin of course 152 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: had to say, well, it's going to be up to 153 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: this jury who was really voted. They were absolutely trying 154 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: to figure out, thinking this could be a critical turning point. 155 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: So we'll see what they say when they get back 156 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: into that jury room. Nancy. So, right before they called 157 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: the lunch break, a new witness had taken the stand. 158 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: He was short, he was succinct, he was awesome. Jonathan 159 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: Van Houghton, as I recall his name, and he has 160 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: been with the US Secret Service and he is a 161 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: digital expert, and he's explaining to everybody how he ultimately 162 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: unlocked Paul Murdoch's phone. This is critically important because Paul Murdoch, 163 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: the son, the murdered son. I had sent a snapchat 164 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: and was sending voicemails and phone calls and texts all 165 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: the way up until the time of his murder. This 166 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: guy is talking about unlocking Paul Murdoch's phone and how 167 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: you do it. But before I get to that, I 168 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: want to circle back chronologically. Let me get in my notebook. 169 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: No phone's allowed, so to write everything down as quickly 170 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: as I could. I want to talk about and this 171 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: is where you come in. Leonard Romero joining US forensic 172 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: firearms experts at Ballistic Firearms Expert dot com. Leonard, thank 173 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: you for being with us. A lot was made this morning. 174 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: Let me get back to my notes about Blackout. Three 175 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: hundred AMMO taken from the murder scene. And I couldn't 176 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: quite understand where the state was going and what the 177 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: defense was trying to get to, and then it all 178 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: became very very clear. You know, they had basically a 179 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: gun room there at the dog kennels is not really kennel. 180 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: It's a big, big spread. It's not a dogshit, I 181 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: can tell you that much. And inside which the defense 182 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: thought really hard yesterday to keep out. I don't know 183 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: if we could pull up a picture of this or not, 184 00:11:54,800 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: but a room within the hunting watches Stay eight that 185 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: was dedicated to holding all the guns and ammo. We 186 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: learned Leonard that during this time it was very hard 187 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: to get three hundred blackout ammo and because of COVID, 188 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: they said, and they looked across the entire estate as 189 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: best as they could. They found two two twenty three 190 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: caliber two fifty six three h eight from a hunting 191 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: rifle also military use, but no other three hundred blackout, 192 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: but that was what was used for the murders. Now 193 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: explained to me, what is three hundred BLACKOUTMO? Thanks for 194 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: having me, Nancy. Three hundred blackout AMO is basically similar 195 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: to an eight K forty seven type of ammo. All 196 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: it is is it's very powerful ammunition. It's an eight 197 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: key forty seven type round that's been and developed to 198 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: be fired in an AR type weapon as the weapon 199 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: as we've seen with this blackout three hundred. What's interesting 200 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: about that gun room is the cartridge cases that they 201 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: found in the flower bed and just adjacent to the 202 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: stoop entering the gun room. I believe they were three 203 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: hundred blackout ammunition, but they were weathered cartridge cases, Okay, 204 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: that it had been fired old, Yes, ma'am. If we 205 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: can go ahead and link them to the fired cartridge 206 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: cases back in the kennel, as well as any other 207 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: cartridges that were cycled through the weapon, then that puts 208 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,479 Speaker 1: to rest that the gun was brought onto the property. 209 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: That shows that that gun was fir Leonard Romero. Slow down, 210 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: Will you say that again, very slowly so I can 211 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: just let it sink in. Yes, ma'am, what happened. And 212 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: it's the same sled agent who is just testifying about 213 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: He just just a minute ago when you showed him 214 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: he found some cartridge cases adjacent to the flower bed 215 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: in the gun room as well as adjacent to the 216 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: stairs entering the gun room. He described them as being weathered. 217 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: Those cartridge cases being weathered means they've been there for 218 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: a significant amount of time. That tells us if we 219 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: can link them back to the fired cartridge cases within 220 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: the kennel, as well as any ammunition that have may 221 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: been cycled through the weapon, that tells us that that 222 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: weapon was on property all along, that it's not a 223 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: weapon that just came onto the property. Because those cartridge 224 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: cases have been there a significant amount of time, very significant, 225 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: Ann Emerson and joining us wciv Way in. Of course, 226 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: this is before we get what I thought was a 227 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: wild goose chase pardon my pun. Pardon my pun, because 228 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: there was a huge long line of questioning and cross 229 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: examination about turkey shot in other words, waterfowl versus landfowlmo. 230 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: And I thought, why do we care about waterfowl versus 231 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: non waterfowl, ammo? And that went on and on forever 232 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: a till suddenly they made their point. But could you 233 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: back up an to what Leonard Romero was telling us 234 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: about the three hundred blackout, AMMO. Well, it's very significant 235 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: because you know, markings on these shell casings, as as 236 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: we just heard, are going to be so important to 237 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: this case. They are like the signature of a gun. Now, 238 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: we don't have the murder weapon in this circumstance. They've 239 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: already said that several times that we don't have the 240 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: actual murder weapon, but the prosecution is setting it up 241 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: that this is a family weapon that was used. Even 242 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: if we don't have it yet, we have these shell 243 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: case things that can all point they're telling us from 244 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: the range to the stoop of the house to the 245 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: casings that were found around Maggie's body, that these three 246 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: hundred blackout that not only are they uncommon, according to 247 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: our senior sled agent, he says he has never worked 248 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: a case with three hundred blackout before. This is also 249 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: the same shell casing. So we're gonna have to see 250 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: how hard the defense goes after that. Now, the water foul, 251 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: I thought that was so interesting too, And I was, 252 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: you know, as as at one point Griffin said, I'm 253 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: a city boy. You know, I'm not. I'm not you know, 254 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm still from a small southern town, but I guess 255 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: I'm a city girl. So I really had to take 256 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: a lot of notes on that too. But what I 257 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: got from that was that there Griffin, the defense Jim 258 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: Griffin is trying to say that the shells that killed, 259 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: the shells that killed Paul Murdoch, well those just were 260 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: not on the property. These seal shell steel bullets that 261 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: killed waterfowl that would have been loaded into this shotgun. 262 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: The way I understood it, this just isn't what killed Paul. 263 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: So that does seem to present a problem. You know, 264 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: they went through a lot of discussion, a lot of 265 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: questioning and cross examination on particular types of MMO. And 266 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: I took so many notes. I'm just wondering how the 267 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: jury to keep up with it, because I noticed they're 268 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: not taking notes. Now, in some jurisdictions, note taking is allowed. 269 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: In many jurisdictions, it is not allowed. And this is 270 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: the legal reasoning why some judges do not allow girars 271 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: to take notes. The law the judge does not want 272 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: the jury, when they are working in tandem, to rely 273 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: solely on one or more jurars notes. They are to 274 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: reach a true verdict based on their collective memories of 275 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: what happened in the courtroom. But I can tell you, 276 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: and I try to flow chart about all the different 277 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: AMMO and all of the AMMO related questions, but I'll 278 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: tell you what it boils down to. I can do 279 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: that for you. Leonard Romero, forensics ballistics expert. It boils 280 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: down to this. We all know that a bullet is 281 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: like a fingerprint, because once a bullet hurdles down the 282 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: barrel of a gun, it is indelibly and forever marked 283 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: with the imperfections on the inside of that barrel where 284 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: when the factory made it, that metal cooled and there 285 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 1: will be little rivets and dots inside the barrel. And 286 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: those bullet striations or marks on a bullet are only 287 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: made by one gun and one gun only. And when 288 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: you look at it under a microscope at the crime lab, 289 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: you get your known bullet out of the body. You're 290 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: at the crime saying that was fired from a gun, 291 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: and then you try to fire from the known weapon, 292 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: the murder weapon, and see if they match. Our problem 293 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: is we don't have the murder weapon. What a lot 294 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: of people don't know is that a cartridge can do 295 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: not exactly the same thing, but much the same thing. Explain, Yes, basically, 296 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: the cartridge case is going to have tool marks on 297 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 1: it that our individual for a particular firearm that it 298 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: was fired in. Just as a bullet has those individual 299 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: tool marks that allow us to identify it back to 300 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: a particular gun, the cartridge cases all have those similar 301 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: tool marks in different areas of it that we can 302 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: use to identify back to a gun. Going back to 303 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: your original question with regards to the AMMO, it is 304 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: a fairly new round. It was developed in two thou 305 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: and ten, but there was a difficulty in getting AMMO 306 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: during COVID, not only for this particular round. What made 307 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: it more difficult for this is that it was a 308 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: newer type of round developed. But for all ammunition because 309 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: of COVID, it was very difficult to buy ammunition. An 310 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: Emerson with Me, Senior investigator, Reporter WCIV. We keep hearing 311 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: about a receipt that was found in a trash bag 312 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: and it was a Gucci receipt. Why do we keep 313 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: hearing about a Gucci store receipt and what if any 314 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: significance do we believe that played well, Nancy, you know, 315 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: it just seems like they just keep on hooking us. 316 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: Did you see the room again? Like once again? It 317 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: was one of those moments where everyone but he said, 318 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we're gonna talk about that Gucci receipt 319 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: again and then they sort of leave us hanging. All 320 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: we get out of that is that there was a 321 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: Gucci There was a receipt from the Gucci storeward thinking 322 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: that it was from Charleston, because we know that there's 323 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: one in Charleston. That it was for over a thousand dollars. 324 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: It was on a credit card statement, It was circled 325 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: and it was balled up and it was thrown in 326 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: the trash can of of this kennel, of the area 327 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: of where the murders took place, and so who threw 328 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: away the Gucci receipt was? How does this play into 329 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: what we already know about the financial pressures that Alec 330 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: Murdoch had brought upon himself with these alleged financial crimes. 331 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: How how is this going to play into the prosecution? Now? 332 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: One thing that I have heard over and over again 333 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: is that this case is to be looked at just 334 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: like a puzzle. They are getting us a piece at 335 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: a time, and sometimes those pieces turn out to be 336 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: really not the right fit. But gosh, I mean, we 337 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: are starting to see a picture for sure. So that 338 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: Gucci receipt to me was something was bought there. It 339 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: was over a thousand dollars that would have caused pressure 340 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: on the family. You know, we can really start kind 341 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: of seeing where there that those state wants us to 342 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: focus on financial issues, whether or not they get brought 343 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: into Well, I've done a little bit of digging since 344 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: we've been here in Walterborough, and I'm thinking about that 345 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: Gucci receipt and this is what I've learned, But by 346 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: not one person, but by two thinking about this Gucci receipt. 347 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how Alex Murdog knew he was so 348 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: deep in debt, stealing clients money, siphoning money from his 349 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: law firm, just outright embuzzling money, you know, to the 350 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: point where his law firm kicked him out. And of 351 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: course you know, yesterday we spoke with Eric Bland, the 352 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: lawyer for the sadder Field family whose mom was found 353 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: at the foot of the stairs there and all of 354 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: that money, hundreds of thousands of dollars was taken by 355 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: Alex Murdog that should have gone to that family. That's 356 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: just one small example. So Murdog knows he's way draw 357 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: downing in debt, but Maggie didn't really know, according to 358 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: some sources, how bad it was. And I'm wondering if 359 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: she went and unwittingly blew a thousand bucks at Gucci. Now, 360 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: this is what I've learned. That the man the home, 361 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: the beach house they had in Edmonton, was in Maggie's name, 362 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: Anne Emerson, and that Murdoch went to Maggie and wanted 363 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: her to put that beach house up as collateral for 364 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: him to get yet another loan. She wouldn't do it, 365 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: and he was mad as h e double l that 366 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: she would not use that house as collateral, that there 367 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: were all sorts of money tensions between these two. You know, 368 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: I would like to pose the hypothetical why to rich people, 369 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: all they want to do is hold on to that money, 370 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: spend it and try to get some more. Said this 371 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: Gucci receipt. We're gonna hear about that, Anne Emerson. We're 372 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: gonna hear it, because they keep mentioning it in the courtroom, 373 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: they keep on hooking us. They're absolutely going to bring 374 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: that up, and I think they're gonna bring it up 375 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: in a way that's going to make a lot of 376 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: sense as far as what we also know, which is 377 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: that the chief financial officer over the Murdoch law firm 378 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: has confronted Alec Murdoch the day of the killing. So 379 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: that's going to have to play in tandem with this 380 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: level of pressure that's building on the family. Years and 381 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: years of financial allegations that are going to be coming 382 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: to play here, and it's just a matter of time. Well, 383 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: I can tell you one person that better get their 384 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: story straight. But before I go to Alex Murdoch and 385 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: our cut one talking about exactly when the last time 386 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: he saw his wife alive. I mean, I can tell 387 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: you right now the last time I saw my children 388 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: in my house, sin as I pulled out in the 389 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: driveway to come here, I can tell you exactly what 390 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: they were doing. But he seems to have a little 391 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: trouble remembering exactly what was happening the last time he 392 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: saw his wife alive. But before I go to that, 393 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle dupre joining me forensic pathologists, medical examiner, also 394 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: detective author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Dupree, I mean, 395 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: I know you've You've had a lot of autopsies, but 396 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: it just stopped me in my tracks when I heard 397 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: that Paul's God Rest, his soul, brains were down by 398 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: his feet. Those words were Murdog's words, not mine. Murdog's words. 399 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have put it quite like that, 400 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: But doctor Dupree, would a three hundred caliber blackout bullet 401 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: as opposed to let's just say a twenty two, for 402 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, cause that type of damage to the human body. Absolutely, 403 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: Nancy that the way that we determine the damage to 404 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: the body is basically by the kindetic energy or the 405 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: amount of energy in that specific projectile, and that would 406 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: cause extensive damage to a human body, especially when it 407 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: hits a skull like that, it would be devastating, and 408 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: again at rather close range. But to take your brain 409 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: first of all, out of your skull and it fly 410 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: all the way to your feet. A bullet a weapon 411 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: that powerful. Is that what a three hundred blackout is? Yes, 412 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: it is, Nancy, that's what. Any type of weapon like 413 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: that is, A rifle or an AKA would do the 414 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: same thing, a shotgun, the same thing. Now, this type 415 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: of weapond Leonard Romero, a ballistics expert, is a semi 416 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: semi automatic, which means you have to pull the trigger. 417 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: It's not like a machine gun on TV, where you 418 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: go you pull a trigger at one time, it just 419 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: keeps on shooting. This is a semi where every time 420 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: you hear a bullet, somebody had to pull the trigger 421 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: for each firing. Correct, Yes, ma'am, that's correct. With each 422 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: pull of the trigger, the gun is fired. I can 423 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: tell you right where that's going, Wendy Patrick. That is 424 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: going to intent, because intent to commit a crime does 425 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: require some malice aforethought. But under the law, there is 426 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: no specific time for that planning. It does not have 427 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: to be a long attenuated plan such as I feed 428 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: Ann Emerson a little bit of arsenic every day in 429 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: her coffee before court until she kills over. That's a 430 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: long extended plan to kill. Intend to kill under the law. 431 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: The law says this, not me. The law says it 432 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 1: can be formed in the twinkling of a moment, the 433 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: blink of an eye. The time it takes you to 434 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: raise the gun and pull the trigger is long enough 435 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: to form intent to kill, much less when you fire 436 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: multiple rounds Wendy Patrick, and each time you must knowingly 437 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: and willfully pull the trigger. Isn't that true? Oh? Absolutely, 438 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: you know. Not only does the law say you can 439 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: form intend to kill very quickly, but in a case 440 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: like this, where there are so many moving parts that 441 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: you can put together, that's exactly what you find here, 442 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: to the extent that it's almost a rage type killing 443 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: when you have chosen and selected this particular weapon, which, 444 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: by the way, through that unique signature that we've been discussing, 445 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: is tied directly to the crime scene. So this may 446 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: be a puzzle, but we've already established the border. Now 447 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: the Gucci receives some of the other information that's just 448 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: going to fill in the middle of it. Jurors don't 449 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: need to see notes to see the picture that is emerging. 450 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: So Cheryl McCollum is joining me. Frins the expert the 451 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl wag In on what you're 452 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: hearing about ballistics. I think one of the most important 453 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: things is going to be the placement on their body 454 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: then where you know the cards being a found and 455 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: Nancy also something from me, Major if All has never 456 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: said any guns were missing. Okay, hold on, hold on, 457 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: say that one more time. I'm out here in the 458 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: in front the courthouse. I didn't you cut out on me? 459 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: What did you just say? Aul has never said guns 460 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: were missing from his arsenal. He's never said, oh my god, 461 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: just and that was difference. You never said that. You 462 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: know what's interesting about what you just said. I want 463 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: to circle back to Anne Emerson on exactly what Cheryl 464 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: McComb just said. They're laying the foundation. The defense is 465 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: laying the foundation. Anne Emerson, how many times have we 466 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: heard the defense say in court that Paul Murdoch leaves 467 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: things laying around and it is suggesting he's lost a 468 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: gun absolutely, I mean, and it was something that was 469 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: laid by Alec Murdoch. The defendants started laying the groundwork 470 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: for that. In his first statements to SLED officers. We 471 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: heard that Paul was absent minded, he was irresponsible. We 472 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: heard that he had ADHD. We heard that he left 473 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: stuff all over the place, including his clothes all over 474 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: the state, his guns all over the place. He talked 475 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: about how he used his guns all all over the 476 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: seventeen hundred acre estate. In other words, like who knows 477 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: what he could have done with his guns. He was 478 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: really setting that up in these video statements that Paul 479 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: was irresponsible with guns and armo and that he would 480 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: he would take a three hundred blackout and just go 481 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: shoot hogs when he felt like it. Now, the thing 482 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: about the lost or stolen there's a big question here 483 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: because we heard that he never reported his stolen the 484 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: blackout rifle of Paul's. This is what we were hearing 485 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: that Alec Murduck never reported it, but he did let 486 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: his buddies know in law enforcement in case it turned 487 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: into a drug thing. So I'm wondering if defense already 488 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: had some witnesses lined up to say we knew that 489 00:30:53,440 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: Paul's gun was missing from the property time stories with 490 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I can see them laying the trap right now. 491 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure where they were headed, but I knew 492 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: they're laying a trap for the stake. They're implicating Paul, 493 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: the dead son, as somehow being irresponsible and quote leaving 494 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: guns laying around. You know, Charyon will call them. You 495 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: and I have handled a lot of cases in intercity Atlanta, 496 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: and almost all of them dealing with guns. There's a 497 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: big difference and having a messy room and throwing your 498 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: clothes around your car or your bedroom and leaving an 499 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: a r basically, you know, a semi automatic assault weapon 500 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: lying around. I just don't see that. I don't believe 501 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: that for one minute. I don't believe. And here's what's 502 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: gonna happen. The prosecution is going to show what all 503 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: is not present at that scene that kuld be if 504 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: this is an outside person. They're gonna show there's no 505 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: unknown footprint, there's no unknown cell phone team, there's no 506 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: other suffect anywhere that anybody's been able to name. There 507 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: gonna have promote there's no one else but lured in 508 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: this nobody else does to say, but all three d there. 509 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: But you know Alex to believe no unsold power past. 510 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: There's no Burkeley, there's no sexty calls, there's Susie, there's 511 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: nothing that Alex Burdoffs begin to speak of us. It's 512 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: gonna come back. Who Alex Ardoff to day of the movie? 513 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: What does he call you? With his office, even with 514 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: residable suit involving Paul, that the receif angle about us, 515 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: he lured his wife say he already admitted me and 516 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: as all all all, that's why you've got to do 517 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: what he telling you. I was old this property with 518 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: these two people, that I got this and I had 519 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: you know, I was looking at my notes about what 520 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: I was telling you earlier that two witnesses, two people 521 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: came up and told me that Maggie had a quote 522 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: nice beautiful Antebellum home in downtown Hampton, and that Murdog 523 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: had her sell it and move, and that he also 524 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: wanted her to put up the Edisto Beach home, put 525 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: it up for collateral so he could get another bank loan, 526 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: and she refused. We also heard a lot today about 527 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,479 Speaker 1: step playing on the skin, and I nearly jumped out 528 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: of my skin yesterday, An Emerson, and you know Leonardamro 529 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: or anyone on the panel, Doctor Michelle Dupree. I keep 530 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: telling you guys, this is not high tea at Windsor 531 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: Castle with the new King Charles. Okay, so jump in 532 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: if you have an idea here. You're all experienced veterans. 533 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: So Anne Emerson. Yesterday when the defense was going on 534 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: and on and on about the trajectory path, the angle 535 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: at which the victims were shot. Was it from here down? 536 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: Was a straight across? Let me just give an example. 537 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: Here's a way to tell if there was a suicide. 538 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: If somebody is shot in the back of the head, 539 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: that's probably not a suicide because it would be difficult 540 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: for the suicide victim to do that. They were arguing 541 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: yesterday about the trajectory of the path of the bullet 542 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: that shot the victims, and we're trying to get worldly. 543 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: I love that woman. She was such a great witness 544 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: on the stand to say that there were two shooters. 545 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: She would never say it today. They came in first 546 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: thing this morning talking about stippling on the victim's skin, 547 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: which in my mind would show a defendant a perp 548 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 1: could shoot at one angle, and when the victim was down, 549 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: they could go over and shoot close range at a 550 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: different trajectory path, a different angle. So Ann Emerson, they 551 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: came in immediately talking about stippling on the victim's bodies. 552 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Well, I think that 553 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: there's a couple of things here that I took away, 554 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to listen to some of the tidbits 555 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: that they're they're handing out, because I, like you said, 556 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: this is very important that they were that close that 557 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: they actually had stippling on both of these bodies. Now, 558 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: we were hearing from Defense that there must have been 559 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: another angle that was quite far away, and that's where 560 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: Defense started setting up the two shooter theory, which I 561 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: don't think they did a bad job with. I just 562 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: think the problem that they're having is that people are 563 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: saying the witnesses on the sand States talking about that 564 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: they're actually people can move. It's not like they have 565 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: to stay still if they're exactly we know because we 566 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: heard earlier on that Maggie and they they've already said 567 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: that the shooter and Maggie were moving when that happened, 568 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: when she was shot. They were both moving, so there's 569 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: there's nothing stopping the state from saying, hey, this is 570 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: one person and he was moving around. I think their 571 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: bigger problem is how he was holding two guns. Did 572 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: he have one on his back, did he have one 573 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: in his hand. I'm really interested to see what they're 574 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: gonna say about where the position an Emerson and Emerson. 575 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: Apparently when you were in journalism school, you did not 576 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: get the required course. In Arnold Schwarzenegger or Rambo, they 577 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: always carry two guns. So anybody's been watching TV and 578 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: they think they're gonna pull off a murder, they do 579 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: what they see day. They come in, you know, guns loaded, 580 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: locked and loaded. I can very easily see him coming 581 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: in with two weapons. It's not that fantastical to me. Okay, guys, 582 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: another thing happened today. I want you to hear Alex 583 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: Murlock seems to be a little confused about the last 584 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: time he saw his wife alive. Take a listen to 585 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: our cut one. At some point we were all back 586 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: at the house together. Maggie had gotten home, and you know, 587 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: we sat down, we ate supper, and which we usually 588 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: suffered together. I know that Maggie went to the kennels. Um, 589 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly where Paul went, but he left 590 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 1: the house too, Okay, I mean I assuming Paul went 591 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: to the kennels. I stayed in the house and I 592 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: was watching TV, looking at my phone, and I actually 593 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: fell asleep on the couch when you and Paul got 594 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: back to the house. Whence Maggie's there and goat eat 595 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: supper which has been prepared, And you said, you said 596 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: you laid down and took a little bit out and 597 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: when you got up, Maggie and Paul was gone. Or 598 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: did they leave when you laid down? I believed that, 599 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure, but they weren't there when 600 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: you woke up around the nine o'clock mark or so 601 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: when when you made the call to Maggie to let 602 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: her know. He's going to even know nobody was in 603 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: that house when I when I left, And just trying 604 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: to narrow that the last time that Paul and you 605 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 1: saw paulow Maggie's when y'all are eating supper, Yes, sir guy, 606 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: he can't be asleep having supper at the kennels, in 607 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: the car on the phone all at the same time. 608 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he's not clear He's giving multiple explanations of 609 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: where he was, where Maggie was, and when he saw 610 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: her for the last time before she was murdered. How 611 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: can that be? It can't be, and I'll chase something else, 612 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: and he says, I was watching and throwing on my phone. 613 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: That's gonna be easy for them to prove whether or 614 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,479 Speaker 1: not that happened. What show were you watching? He's easily 615 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: going to be able to tell something that was on 616 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: TV at that time or not. Yeah, they've got his phone. 617 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: They're gonna know whether or not he was throwing like 618 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: before posing this nap. What is going to be critical 619 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: is the patality of everything that he has said. When 620 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: he said it and acted alman he comes as he 621 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: ever woken up from a nap, didn't see his wife 622 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: for tom and left without telling then he would Nancy. 623 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: Can I jump in here? Oh okay, go ahead, Wendy 624 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: jump in. Shery was making some great points about the 625 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: fact that the suspect was giving all this kind of 626 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: information that can be corroborated. What was he watching on television, 627 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: what was he doing on his phone? They can check 628 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: all of that. I want to point that tone of 629 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: voice is very important. Here as well. It's not just 630 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: what he's saying, it's the way he's saying it. And 631 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: remember this was close in time to the murders. So 632 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: the the fact that there's this inability to reconstruct a 633 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: timeline that literally just happened is definitely something that jurors 634 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: are going to really pay a lot of attention to. 635 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: And then loop is I think everybody else has been saying, 636 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: with the weight of the rest of the evidence they 637 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: have to work with. Well, let me just ask doctor 638 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: Angie Arnold Angela, do you remember the last time you 639 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: saw your husband before you came to the set? Well, 640 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: what was he doing? What was he doing? He was 641 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: leaving to go to a meeting, Okay, and I remember 642 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: what time it was. Also, because Nancy, typically what people do, 643 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: they associate things with other things that are going on. 644 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: So one of my questions is, had Alex been drinking 645 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: heavily that night? I don't know, why could he? Why 646 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: is he so specific about some of the things that 647 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: he remembers that he wants us to think that he remembers, 648 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: and then and then everything else is so fuzzy. I 649 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: think that's a very big red flag. Also, other thing, 650 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: doctor Angie is I can remember to this day the 651 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: last moment I saw my fiance alive before he was murdered. 652 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: He was leaving in his car and I was waving 653 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: and held his right hand out the window and waved, 654 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: and that was the last I saw him. I remember 655 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: it like it happened before the lunch break. And now 656 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: murdog can't tell me the last time he saw his 657 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: wife alive, the mother of his two children. That is 658 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: some bs and that is not a technical legal term. Guys, 659 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 1: A lot going down in the courtroom, and I want 660 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: to go to our cut nine about not only is 661 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: it stipling on the body, but another significant line of 662 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: questioning by the defense that has just happened about where 663 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: does the cartridge land when you shoot a shotgun or 664 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: any long gun. This is important. Listen to this. Are 665 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: you aware that both victims had stippling on them from 666 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: their gunshot injuries? Yes, sir, I am, and what is stippling. 667 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: Stippling is a powder burned pattern which is left on 668 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: an individual due to a close range shot. To a 669 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: close range shot, that is correct. Thank you. You're asking 670 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: some questions about the location of where showcasings land when 671 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: they're ejected out of the weapon of Zaka. Yes, sir, 672 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: I was. Are there a number of factors that going 673 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: to where a showcase he might actually land? Yes, sir 674 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: it is. Can people move? I'm sorry, sir, Do people move? 675 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: People can move? Yes, sir. I gotta tell you that 676 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: prosecutor was he knows his way around a courtroom. I 677 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: can tell you that much. He's good. And they had 678 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: another defense lawyer up today in addition to Hartpool again 679 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: doing cross exams. He was pretty good too. So right 680 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: now it's an even match in the courtroom between the lawyers. 681 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: Can we talk about why it's important where does the 682 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: cartage go after you fire a long gun? With me? 683 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle du Pree not only pithologists medical examiner, but 684 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: she also is a forensic consultant. What can you tell 685 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: us about where the cartridge goes when it's ejected, Not 686 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: the bullet, but the cartridge when it's ejected from a 687 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: long gun. We'll answy that. That's a good question, and 688 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: most of them do eject to the right and oftentimes backwards. 689 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: But the problem is we can't place a lot of 690 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: stock in where we find that cartridge, that cartridge casing 691 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: because there are so many things that happen. Maybe the 692 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: person themselves moved it, maybe the shooter kicked it, maybe 693 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: some of the first responders kicked it. It's something to 694 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: look at, but that is not definitive. I want to 695 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: say one other thing. It does give some indication as 696 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: to possibly where the shooter was standing. And there's also 697 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: been a lot made about not having the weapon or 698 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: not finding the weapon, but oftentimes we don't have the weapon. 699 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: When we go to trial, we don't ever find the weapon, 700 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: and that's one of the things that is just I guess, 701 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: sort of smoking mirrors that the defense is trying to 702 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: throw out. I think the defense is also trying to 703 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: set up that it's not just that it's the murder weapon. 704 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: It's said they could be a stolen weapon that came 705 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: off of their property and they don't know where it 706 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: is and they don't know what happened to it. So 707 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: I think that's also part of the mystery behind which 708 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: weapon was used and was it Paul's actual three hundred blackout. 709 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: Leonard Romero, ballistics expert, let me talk to you about 710 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: this ejection theory. As doctor Dupree just said, typically cartridge 711 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: will eject to the right of the gun, of the shotgun, 712 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: the long gun, and maybe a little bit backwards. And 713 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,919 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how the defense went round and round, 714 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: establishing that I can see where they're going with this. 715 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: Exactly what Dupree just said. They're going to argue about. 716 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,800 Speaker 1: Could there be two people standing in two different places 717 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: in that dog kennel when the shootings went down? But 718 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: the reality is is the surface on which the cartridge falls. 719 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,760 Speaker 1: If I remember a case where a murder took place 720 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: in a bedroom, the victim was lying in the bed 721 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: was set up to like suicide. We were looking at 722 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: where the cartridges went and if it's carpet, it could bounce, 723 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: If it hits tile, it could go somewhere else. But 724 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree It typically ejects to the right, and 725 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: usually a little back over your shoulder, typically to the right. Yeah, 726 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: that's correct, Dency. If we're dealing with a semi automatic shotgun, 727 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: yes it's to the right, and with this blackout three hundred, 728 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: it's going to be to the right. What's interesting also 729 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: about this case is if you look at the sled 730 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: officer's diagram, you'll see items two through seven, which are 731 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: the three hundred blackout cartridge cases kind of going in 732 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: an arc towards Maggie away from Paul. You're correct in 733 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: that the surface does play a big reasoning or a 734 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: big hindrance if you will, as to where the cartridge 735 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: case and can land and when we're trying to do 736 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: ejection pattern analysis. But if you look at this crime scene, 737 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,399 Speaker 1: you'll see also right behind Paul there's a shot gun 738 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: wad that's labeled as photo ID number one, and that's 739 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: right directly behind him. And then if you look in 740 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 1: front of him going towards Maggie, you will see what 741 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 1: looks like an arc of cartridge cases and those my 742 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: understanding photo IDs two through seven or the three hundred 743 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 1: blackout cartridge cases. But it is a dynamic crime scene. 744 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: People are moving, the individual is moving, victims could be 745 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: moving at the time. So again, those are all factors 746 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,399 Speaker 1: that have to be played are considered when you're doing 747 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: these ejection pattern analysis. You're so right, Leonard Romero, Cheryl 748 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: McCall with me, forensics expert. Maggie we believe was running. 749 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 1: We believe she was running from the shooter. Talk about 750 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: a dynamic crime scene. Yes, people were running and moving 751 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: and screaming. So I think that that is going to 752 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: benefit the state, but yet it will give the defense 753 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: a toe hold. They're going to argue that cartridges were 754 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: in different places, so that would indicate a second shooter. 755 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: Of course, that see anything but true. Well, again, if 756 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: Paul was shot first form, we all believe Maggie was 757 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: aware of that at some point, especially with the second shot, 758 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: with the shot the chest in the head. At that 759 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: point she is running to try to save herself and 760 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 1: the shooter is now hunting her. So again, I think 761 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,839 Speaker 1: it's really important that we understand was Paul out there, 762 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, and where his mother was when the murder? 763 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: The third? But Alec was he hunting hog? Was he 764 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 1: hunting his family? So I'm gonna tay you something. Nancy, 765 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: not his brothers, not his law partner's got his brand's 766 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,439 Speaker 1: got other family members. Nobody has been named the law enforce. 767 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: They go out and find the real killer. Nobody's hired 768 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,720 Speaker 1: a private investigator. The community at large is not afraid 769 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 1: of someone. Luke, excuse me, loose madman on the run. 770 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,960 Speaker 1: You know, I was just thinking about something else, And 771 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,919 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to our cut four to the control room. 772 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you playing this sound in the 773 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: control room because I want everybody to hear what's happening, 774 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: not just me telling you what happened, but for you 775 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,360 Speaker 1: to actually hear we've been recording it for you. They 776 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: better be careful when they keep talking about what a 777 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: great marriage they had. Take a listen to our cut four. 778 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: How is your relationship with Maggie as good as it 779 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: could possibly be? I mean, you know, we had our issues, 780 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: but wonderful and we really didn't argue about much. Man, 781 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: how much too are you of Uh? Take time because 782 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: he was a wonderful girl. I have a wonderful wife. 783 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: She was a great bu She you know, she didn't work, 784 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:32,320 Speaker 1: and she always said it was her job. She was 785 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,439 Speaker 1: privileged enough not to work. She was gonna make sure 786 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: she took care of me and the boys. And I 787 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: mean she did everything, TV did absolutely everything. I'm sorry, no, no, 788 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,720 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something. Uh. If someone asked my husband, 789 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: how's your marriage with Nancy and he said, well, it's 790 00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: as good as it can be, my head blow off. 791 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: Because if somebody asked me about how is my marriage 792 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: to David, I'd say next to having the twins. It's 793 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: the best thing I ever did in my life. I 794 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: only wish I had done it earlier. As good as 795 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: it can be? Really, I mean, Cheryl helped me. If 796 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: anybody said, well, as good as it can be, and 797 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,319 Speaker 1: you're telling them there's some problems there, it ain't great. 798 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,399 Speaker 1: It's not fabulous. It's not the best thing I ever did. 799 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: He's not It could be, Nancy, It wasn't it natural. 800 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,359 Speaker 1: It isn't quite true that she didn't work. Maggie did 801 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: do some work at the law firm as a book keeper. 802 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: That's the last thing a mom wants to hear is 803 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: the husband's saying, well, she didn't work. What raising two boys, 804 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,359 Speaker 1: putting dinner on the table every night, seeing that they 805 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: do their homework? Can they do this and that? I 806 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: tell you what, when I have a weekend, I can't 807 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,800 Speaker 1: wait to get back to work because I work harder 808 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: being a mom and a wife than I do being 809 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: a lawyer. For Pete's sake, she didn't work, and our 810 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 1: marriage was as good as it could be. Nancy. He 811 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,759 Speaker 1: didn't just say she didn't work. He said she was 812 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 1: privileged not to work. Let's not let that word go 813 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: by the wayside, he provided her the privilege of not working. 814 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: That's what he thought of what she did Doan, let 815 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: me tell you what's happening next. This judge is running 816 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: the courtroom as tight as a ship. He's a great 817 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: judge with a great demeanor, and he does not tolerate 818 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: any misbehavior in the courtroom. And he listens very carefully 819 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 1: to both attorneys when they're making objections. But what's happening 820 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 1: on the stand right now is telling you earlier is 821 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: a former secret service person from the US Secret Service 822 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: about how Paul Murdog's phone was unlocked. Now, I think 823 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: the last thing he said was that they had used 824 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: on multiple attempts to get into Paul's phone. Yeah, and 825 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,240 Speaker 1: it turns out after all that it was his birthday. 826 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: And I can tell where they're heading with this, and 827 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: last to you, I think we're trying to get in 828 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: the snapchat video or the video he was sending just 829 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,439 Speaker 1: before his murder. I think that's where where we're heading. 830 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: I think that it is too and I think we've 831 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,920 Speaker 1: got a lot headed our way. And I'm really really 832 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,879 Speaker 1: interested to see what they found on Paul's phone, as 833 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: is everybody. I also want to know Rogan Gibson, who's 834 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: this friend of his who we've already heard about. We 835 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,400 Speaker 1: know that this was sort of the last communic. This 836 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: was the last communication that Paul Ride and it was 837 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: raiders and what. I'm concerned that this snapchat it was 838 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,439 Speaker 1: also already sent to him, So I'm wondering if he's 839 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,919 Speaker 1: going to be one of our witnesses coming up that's 840 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,879 Speaker 1: going to be a huge piece of this puzzle. Yeah, 841 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: his name is Rogan Gibson aka Roadie Gibson. I think 842 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: he will be taking the stand. Guys, I didn't get 843 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,800 Speaker 1: to even a tenth of what we the notes like 844 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: taking the courtroom today. Thank you so much for being 845 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: with us, To the guests, and to you for joining 846 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:06,760 Speaker 1: us here. Goodbye, everybody,