1 00:01:09,389 --> 00:01:12,669 Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we 2 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,099 --> 00:01:18,459 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,499 --> 00:01:21,819 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,859 --> 00:01:24,789 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,829 --> 00:01:25,829 Speaker 2: didn't remember were there. 8 00:01:26,109 --> 00:01:28,849 Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning 9 00:01:28,889 --> 00:01:31,429 Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them 10 00:01:31,489 --> 00:01:34,369 Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes 11 00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:38,029 Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions 12 00:01:38,129 --> 00:01:41,029 Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value 13 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:41,449 Speaker 1: from them. 14 00:01:41,789 --> 00:01:45,299 Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,339 --> 00:01:47,979 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you 16 00:01:48,019 --> 00:01:49,119 Speaker 2: will love just as much. 17 00:01:49,539 --> 00:01:52,659 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,839 --> 00:01:55,139 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,399 --> 00:01:58,149 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,569 --> 00:02:02,909 Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks 21 00:02:02,929 --> 00:02:06,049 Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. 22 00:02:06,489 --> 00:02:09,719 Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com. 23 00:02:10,309 --> 00:02:13,479 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,769 --> 00:02:16,619 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,659 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb. 26 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 27 00:02:26,159 --> 00:02:28,939 Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. 28 00:02:29,339 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 29 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:35,009 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED. 30 00:02:35,449 --> 00:02:39,389 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. This week, We're going to 31 00:02:39,429 --> 00:02:41,409 Speaker 2: check in on a guest from season two to hear 32 00:02:41,459 --> 00:02:42,839 Speaker 2: how they're doing a year later. 33 00:02:44,219 --> 00:02:47,939 Speaker 1: First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 34 00:02:48,439 --> 00:02:51,559 Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is 35 00:02:51,599 --> 00:02:55,179 Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 36 00:02:55,459 --> 00:02:58,099 Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, 37 00:02:58,359 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may 38 00:03:00,999 --> 00:03:04,739 Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 39 00:03:04,819 --> 00:03:07,059 Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part 40 00:03:07,119 --> 00:03:09,149 Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length 41 00:03:09,179 --> 00:03:12,049 Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have 42 00:03:12,069 --> 00:03:14,069 Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our guests. 43 00:03:16,729 --> 00:03:20,169 Speaker 2: So today we're going to hear from Nicole. Nicole's episode 44 00:03:20,189 --> 00:03:24,849 Speaker 2: was called Nicole's Family Divorce. Nicole's parents were getting divorced 45 00:03:24,949 --> 00:03:28,139 Speaker 2: after 40 years, and Nicole had a lot of feelings 46 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 2: about it, even though she was an adult, because adults 47 00:03:30,619 --> 00:03:33,219 Speaker 2: often do have feelings when their parents get divorced. 48 00:03:33,459 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 3: But. 49 00:03:34,199 --> 00:03:37,059 Speaker 2: Nicole had always been in this role in her family 50 00:03:37,119 --> 00:03:40,379 Speaker 2: of being a mediator. And so she really struggled to 51 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:43,649 Speaker 2: make space for her own feelings because her parents and 52 00:03:43,689 --> 00:03:46,569 Speaker 2: her sister were all coming to her for support. So 53 00:03:46,629 --> 00:03:48,809 Speaker 2: Nicole really wanted to get out of the middle of 54 00:03:48,869 --> 00:03:51,729 Speaker 2: her parents' problems. Let's get a reminder of how that 55 00:03:51,749 --> 00:03:52,229 Speaker 2: session went. 56 00:03:52,249 --> 00:03:54,579 Speaker 4: It's kind of always been my role in life has 57 00:03:54,619 --> 00:03:58,739 Speaker 4: been the listener. So it's my parents, my mom, my dad, 58 00:03:59,019 --> 00:03:59,959 Speaker 4: and then my sister. 59 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:01,179 Speaker 3: Everybody. 60 00:04:02,399 --> 00:04:04,639 Speaker 4: Always comes to me when they have a problem with 61 00:04:04,659 --> 00:04:07,479 Speaker 4: somebody else in the family. And then I kind of 62 00:04:07,519 --> 00:04:09,769 Speaker 4: carry the burden of everybody's and try to give advice 63 00:04:09,789 --> 00:04:13,069 Speaker 4: where possible. And at this point, though, it's kind of 64 00:04:13,129 --> 00:04:19,689 Speaker 4: like everybody's coming to me and then everybody's problem is 65 00:04:19,729 --> 00:04:22,579 Speaker 4: with the other person, which is a little more difficult. 66 00:04:28,979 --> 00:04:32,129 Speaker 2: You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after a 67 00:04:32,149 --> 00:04:32,669 Speaker 2: short break. 68 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:46,099 Speaker 1: And now let's hear what's going on with Nicole a 69 00:04:46,139 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: year later. 70 00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:51,349 Speaker 5: Hey, Guy and Lori. I just want to check in 71 00:04:51,369 --> 00:04:54,889 Speaker 5: with you guys since we last chatted. I did get 72 00:04:54,909 --> 00:04:56,869 Speaker 5: a new job and it's been super great for me 73 00:04:56,889 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 5: and everything. I think that the thing that I changed 74 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:02,819 Speaker 5: the most since talking to you guys is just being 75 00:05:02,919 --> 00:05:08,409 Speaker 5: able to shut off my engagement in the conversations with 76 00:05:08,489 --> 00:05:12,299 Speaker 5: my parents. They both definitely still try to drag me 77 00:05:12,539 --> 00:05:16,149 Speaker 5: into it. They both try to say things like, oh, 78 00:05:16,869 --> 00:05:18,089 Speaker 5: your mom and I got in a fight. 79 00:05:18,189 --> 00:05:19,369 Speaker 1: How does she seem? 80 00:05:19,389 --> 00:05:22,029 Speaker 5: Or your dad got in a fight. How does he seem? 81 00:05:22,609 --> 00:05:26,109 Speaker 5: Which isn't fair. And to be honest, like I kind 82 00:05:26,129 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 5: of got sick of saying like, I don't want to 83 00:05:27,709 --> 00:05:29,639 Speaker 5: talk about it. So I'm at the point where I 84 00:05:29,699 --> 00:05:33,939 Speaker 5: just kind of, yes, my way through whatever they're saying. 85 00:05:35,339 --> 00:05:38,139 Speaker 5: I just want to know how you guys think that 86 00:05:38,159 --> 00:05:42,219 Speaker 5: I can really get more firm with them or what 87 00:05:42,259 --> 00:05:46,819 Speaker 5: kind of wording... I could use to help me with that. 88 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:50,419 Speaker 5: I don't feel like it's fair for them to do 89 00:05:50,459 --> 00:05:53,619 Speaker 5: that to me. And I just don't know how to 90 00:05:54,139 --> 00:05:56,819 Speaker 5: say no, I guess. I do really want to thank 91 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 5: you guys for your advice, though. I was able to 92 00:05:59,299 --> 00:06:02,689 Speaker 5: really work on my own feelings and how I feel 93 00:06:02,749 --> 00:06:07,689 Speaker 5: about stuff versus letting their feelings take over. Thanks so 94 00:06:07,729 --> 00:06:10,289 Speaker 5: much for all of your advice. And I can't wait 95 00:06:10,309 --> 00:06:11,569 Speaker 5: to hear what your guys' update is. 96 00:06:16,769 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: So it's good to hear that Nicole is really clear 97 00:06:19,339 --> 00:06:21,519 Speaker 2: that it's unfair that her parents try and put her 98 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: in the middle. And it sounds like the best she's 99 00:06:24,299 --> 00:06:27,259 Speaker 2: been able to do is not engage them when they 100 00:06:27,299 --> 00:06:29,739 Speaker 2: do put her in the middle. But what Nicole is 101 00:06:29,819 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 2: struggling with is what a lot of people struggle with 102 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:34,779 Speaker 2: when they try to set limits. They set the limits. 103 00:06:34,819 --> 00:06:37,609 Speaker 2: She told her parents, I don't want you to come 104 00:06:37,669 --> 00:06:39,469 Speaker 2: to me. It's not fair to put me in the middle. 105 00:06:39,529 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: That's not good for me. She did that part. But 106 00:06:42,899 --> 00:06:45,519 Speaker 2: limit setting has two parts. The first part is very quick. 107 00:06:45,679 --> 00:06:50,249 Speaker 2: That's setting the limit. The big part is the need 108 00:06:50,349 --> 00:06:54,969 Speaker 2: to maintain that limit thereafter time and time and time again, 109 00:06:55,089 --> 00:06:59,009 Speaker 2: if necessary. And that's where she's struggling. She's not aware, 110 00:06:59,069 --> 00:07:02,339 Speaker 2: I think, that she needs to continue to set that 111 00:07:02,379 --> 00:07:05,139 Speaker 2: limit and remind them of it. Each time, the minute 112 00:07:05,219 --> 00:07:08,399 Speaker 2: her father says, oh, I had an argument with your mom. Dad, dad, 113 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:10,519 Speaker 2: to remind you, that's not something I want to hear. 114 00:07:10,559 --> 00:07:12,299 Speaker 2: So please do not address that to me. If you're 115 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:15,069 Speaker 2: concerned about mom, contact mom. And the same to her mom. 116 00:07:15,109 --> 00:07:17,189 Speaker 2: If she needs to say it every time she speaks 117 00:07:17,209 --> 00:07:19,769 Speaker 2: with them, say it every time you speak with them, Nicole. 118 00:07:20,069 --> 00:07:22,289 Speaker 2: That's what maintaining the limit is about. Right. 119 00:07:22,329 --> 00:07:25,289 Speaker 1: And a lot of people feel guilty doing that. And 120 00:07:25,309 --> 00:07:27,489 Speaker 1: they feel like they need to apologize for setting the limit. 121 00:07:27,809 --> 00:07:31,389 Speaker 1: But now that Nicole realizes that indeed this is unfair, 122 00:07:31,409 --> 00:07:34,489 Speaker 1: there's nothing to apologize for here. She just needs to 123 00:07:34,809 --> 00:07:39,169 Speaker 1: be very clear and brief. And the important thing is 124 00:07:39,189 --> 00:07:43,189 Speaker 1: the consistency of the response. She can't sometimes give that 125 00:07:43,229 --> 00:07:46,029 Speaker 1: response and sometimes let them talk about the other parent 126 00:07:46,369 --> 00:07:49,189 Speaker 1: because they're not going to get the message. when you 127 00:07:49,249 --> 00:07:53,829 Speaker 1: are consistent with setting the boundary every single time that 128 00:07:54,149 --> 00:07:57,149 Speaker 1: one parent talks about the other, when she very kindly, 129 00:07:57,249 --> 00:08:01,229 Speaker 1: very calmly, very politely says, just a reminder, I don't 130 00:08:01,269 --> 00:08:03,669 Speaker 1: want to hear about your issues with mom or dad, 131 00:08:04,149 --> 00:08:07,569 Speaker 1: then that's the only way they're going to get the message. 132 00:08:08,049 --> 00:08:12,069 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And consistency is the key word, because if you 133 00:08:12,089 --> 00:08:14,439 Speaker 2: do it four times and then the fifth you don't 134 00:08:14,499 --> 00:08:16,979 Speaker 2: and you indulge it, the message she would be giving 135 00:08:17,019 --> 00:08:20,209 Speaker 2: her parents is that, Sometimes it is okay when it's not. 136 00:08:20,669 --> 00:08:23,269 Speaker 2: And that's why the consistency is so important. And to 137 00:08:23,319 --> 00:08:28,019 Speaker 2: be clear, it's very emotionally laborious to keep having to 138 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:30,659 Speaker 2: set limits with people. It's a difficult thing. It feels 139 00:08:30,679 --> 00:08:34,539 Speaker 2: like a confrontation. It's uncomfortable. But I'm reminding Nicole and 140 00:08:34,619 --> 00:08:37,479 Speaker 2: our listeners, the limit you set is you're letting the 141 00:08:37,539 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: person know what you will tolerate, not what they want 142 00:08:41,599 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: to do, but what you will or will not tolerate. 143 00:08:44,699 --> 00:08:48,069 Speaker 2: And when you're saying, I will not tolerate that conversation, 144 00:08:48,529 --> 00:08:51,429 Speaker 2: you have to be incredibly consistent and make sure that 145 00:08:51,589 --> 00:08:55,609 Speaker 2: indeed you don't ever tolerate that conversation. That's the only 146 00:08:55,649 --> 00:08:58,009 Speaker 2: way to be consistent. And for them to eventually, and 147 00:08:58,029 --> 00:09:00,299 Speaker 2: they will, if you're consistent, get the message. 148 00:09:00,999 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: I also wonder what happened with her sister, because we 149 00:09:03,619 --> 00:09:05,419 Speaker 1: had given her an assignment where her sister would come 150 00:09:05,439 --> 00:09:07,399 Speaker 1: to her as well. And in one of those conversations, 151 00:09:07,479 --> 00:09:09,979 Speaker 1: she discovered that she and her sister were both quite 152 00:09:10,019 --> 00:09:15,129 Speaker 1: upset about the divorce. And We were hoping that maybe 153 00:09:15,179 --> 00:09:18,899 Speaker 1: she and her sister could be mutually supportive for each other. 154 00:09:18,959 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: So there would be some reciprocity there. It wouldn't just 155 00:09:21,119 --> 00:09:23,399 Speaker 1: be the sister coming to Nicole, but Nicole could also 156 00:09:23,459 --> 00:09:25,859 Speaker 1: go to the sister. So Nicole, if you're listening, I 157 00:09:25,899 --> 00:09:28,059 Speaker 1: hope that you and your sister are able to have 158 00:09:28,079 --> 00:09:32,139 Speaker 1: a more reciprocal relationship because you're setting a boundary with 159 00:09:32,199 --> 00:09:35,119 Speaker 1: her as well. Because the thing about boundaries is that 160 00:09:35,259 --> 00:09:37,399 Speaker 1: while it can be scary and it might feel like 161 00:09:37,419 --> 00:09:41,049 Speaker 1: you're doing something aggressive and And sometimes people feel like, well, 162 00:09:41,069 --> 00:09:43,819 Speaker 1: that's just going to make things very complicated. Setting the 163 00:09:43,849 --> 00:09:47,659 Speaker 1: boundary actually brings clarity to the relationship, makes things less 164 00:09:47,739 --> 00:09:50,419 Speaker 1: complicated and brings people closer together. 165 00:09:54,169 --> 00:09:56,429 Speaker 2: Next week, we're going to check in with Diane from 166 00:09:56,489 --> 00:09:59,389 Speaker 2: season two to hear how she's doing a year later. 167 00:09:59,409 --> 00:10:02,279 Speaker 3: I had a really, really, really hard time with that loss. 168 00:10:02,969 --> 00:10:06,329 Speaker 3: I was probably a month out from surgery when my 169 00:10:06,489 --> 00:10:09,329 Speaker 3: brother and sister-in-law announced they were pregnant. It really kind 170 00:10:09,369 --> 00:10:12,159 Speaker 3: of sucked the air out of me because I was like, oh, 171 00:10:12,179 --> 00:10:14,099 Speaker 3: now she's going to be pregnant. And oh, we could 172 00:10:14,119 --> 00:10:17,039 Speaker 3: have been pregnant together. And that really caused like a 173 00:10:17,079 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 3: big friction in my relationship with my brother and sister-in-law 174 00:10:21,259 --> 00:10:24,699 Speaker 3: because I just didn't want to be around them. 175 00:10:25,229 --> 00:10:28,269 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for 176 00:10:28,329 --> 00:10:31,209 Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please 177 00:10:31,249 --> 00:10:33,909 Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapist by telling your friends about it 178 00:10:34,189 --> 00:10:37,429 Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really 179 00:10:37,489 --> 00:10:38,689 Speaker 1: help people to find the show. 180 00:10:39,069 --> 00:10:41,149 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 181 00:10:41,629 --> 00:10:48,409 Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is 182 00:10:48,469 --> 00:10:53,009 Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional 183 00:10:53,069 --> 00:10:57,659 Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen John Washington, and Zachary Fisher. 184 00:10:58,139 --> 00:11:02,749 Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton. 185 00:11:03,349 --> 00:11:06,909 Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. 186 00:11:07,349 --> 00:11:09,229 Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session. 187 00:11:10,209 --> 00:11:12,829 Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.