Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 1: All Right, hey guys, um, welcome back to another episode.
Speaker 1: So I, um, I kind of just really want to
Speaker 1: jump in with my guest today because obviously I'm kind
Speaker 1: of having all the fields right now and I had
Speaker 1: this um uh, It's been kind of great because I've
Speaker 1: relied on so many of of y'all for you know,
Speaker 1: just inspiration and quotes and posting things about strength and
Speaker 1: moving on. And one of the d ms that I
Speaker 1: got was about this girl named Michelle Dempsey. Um, she's
Speaker 1: and someone basically said, like, you need to check out
Speaker 1: her book. It's it's called Moms Moving On. And I
Speaker 1: just started to stalk her naturally on Instagram, and I
Speaker 1: just I really truly love her story and everything that
Speaker 1: you know that she is. And so I just honestly
Speaker 1: just want to get her on right now and just
Speaker 1: kind of dive into it because there's no better person
Speaker 1: to talk to than someone that has been in that situation.
Speaker 1: So let's get Michelle on and let's have a conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm here, hey girl, Hi, Okay. So, because so I
Speaker 1: was just kind of filling in the listeners and just
Speaker 1: for a second, about I've had so many people reach
Speaker 1: out to me about like, oh, follow this person, like
Speaker 1: this person is great at this or you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, read this person's book. And one of the
Speaker 1: direct messages I got was about you and so I know,
Speaker 1: so they're like, you should look into this girl named
Speaker 1: Michelle and she's all about you know, mom's moving on.
Speaker 1: She went through a divorce, and so I started to
Speaker 1: stock you on Instagram and was like, I need to
Speaker 1: have her on my podcast because you know, obviously everything
Speaker 1: just went um finalized the divorce a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and I just there's no better time now to kind
Speaker 1: of pick myself up and have this conversation with someone
Speaker 1: that's been through it and can hopefully help guide not
Speaker 1: only me, but everyone else that's going through a breakup
Speaker 1: or situation from you know, from that needs to keep
Speaker 1: moving on. So, Michelle, can you just give me a
Speaker 1: little snippet of your story so I can catch up. Yes, Well,
Speaker 1: first I just want to say thank you for stalking me,
Speaker 1: because all of my followers were sending me articles and
Speaker 1: they were like, you have to talk to her. You'll
Speaker 1: make her feel so much better. Get her on your podcast.
Speaker 1: And I'm like I don't. I'm not going to swoop
Speaker 1: in and be like, congrats your divorce, let's chat. So
Speaker 1: I'm glad you reached out to me, But yeah, I
Speaker 1: um somehow ended up a divorce coach. I'm a certified
Speaker 1: divorce specialist. I was writing for a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: Mommy publications as a blogger when I got divorced and
Speaker 1: my daughter was too, and I had had already been
Speaker 1: growing my social media, so people were watching and reading
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you know what, I have to be
Speaker 1: authentic and nobody was like out there talking about divorce
Speaker 1: yet on Instagram. So I started to and and Scary
Speaker 1: Mommy and some of the other publications that I write
Speaker 1: for were really welcoming and open about me changing my
Speaker 1: content to what it's like to co parent a little
Speaker 1: kid and how much it sucks to be a single
Speaker 1: mom at thirty three years old. And um, with that,
Speaker 1: my my following grew. And as my following grew, I
Speaker 1: realized people really needed answers to questions that a year
Speaker 1: and a half ago I didn't feel comfortable answering. So
Speaker 1: I started my podcast so I could bring in other
Speaker 1: experts and I literally just take all the questions in
Speaker 1: my d m s and find experts that can answer
Speaker 1: them and I and I bring them on and we
Speaker 1: have great discussions that have been really helpful for people.
Speaker 1: And then people started to reach out about hiring me.
Speaker 1: So I got certified as a coach and a divorce
Speaker 1: specialist so that I can work with women primarily who
Speaker 1: are looking for the strength to leave and kind of
Speaker 1: need that final push and a little bit of a strategy,
Speaker 1: and women who are adjusting to co parenting, because there's
Speaker 1: no harder thing in the world, as I'm sure you
Speaker 1: already know. Um. And then I got a book deal
Speaker 1: with Simon and Schuster. Not like it. It didn't just
Speaker 1: land in my lap. I'm gonna start that over. I
Speaker 1: wanted to write a book. I worked my ass off
Speaker 1: for about six months until I got a book deal
Speaker 1: from Simon and Schuster. So the book comes out later
Speaker 1: this year, and it's really like what to expect when
Speaker 1: you're expecting, but for divorcing moms who are just like,
Speaker 1: how did I end up here? And why? I mean,
Speaker 1: for that's I'm so thankful that you are doing this
Speaker 1: because there are so many people and it's shocking to
Speaker 1: me to like in my Instagram, the d m s,
Speaker 1: it's the amount of people that were like, how did
Speaker 1: you get the courage to leave? And it breaks my
Speaker 1: heart because I'm like, that's of my messages is like
Speaker 1: how did you get the courage? I don't know how
Speaker 1: to leave? And I'm like and it makes me just
Speaker 1: want to cry because I'm like, I was that girl,
Speaker 1: you know, and now it's like there's all these women
Speaker 1: that are just so unhappy and they want hope, so
Speaker 1: they're trying, but then they're just like when they come
Speaker 1: to the end of their road and it's just like
Speaker 1: I'm tired, you know, of of fighting for it, and
Speaker 1: they're depressed and they don't know how and then you
Speaker 1: know a lot of them are like, well, financially, I
Speaker 1: don't know how to get out, and then they just
Speaker 1: feel stuck. So what do you say to those people
Speaker 1: that are going through that kind of challenge? I always
Speaker 1: if I had a dollar for everyone who asked me
Speaker 1: that question like it, I'd be, you know, floating in
Speaker 1: the South of France somewhere. But the truth is, there's
Speaker 1: no one size fits all model like to answer that,
Speaker 1: I think, and everyone hates to hear this because they're like, no,
Speaker 1: I need more than that answer. But I had somebody
Speaker 1: on last year Tanya Zucker brought from F Factor, and
Speaker 1: she talked about what it was like to be in
Speaker 1: a really like loveless, almost emotionally abusive marriage, and it
Speaker 1: came down to spending endless years crying and thinking and
Speaker 1: analyzing and strategizing, how am I going to be okay?
Speaker 1: How my daughter is going to be okay? What are
Speaker 1: we going to do for money? Until you come to
Speaker 1: that moment where it's like one last fight or one
Speaker 1: last text from some woman or one last whatever, and
Speaker 1: you're like that's it. You have this awakening and you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go now because if I don't go now,
Speaker 1: my soul will die and I'll probably die along with it.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's one of those moments that you
Speaker 1: can't describe and I hate to say it, but when
Speaker 1: you know, you know, and as I'm sure you came
Speaker 1: to a point where you were like, I've done everything
Speaker 1: I can do. I've tried the counseling, I've cried, I've begged,
Speaker 1: I've pleaded, and I just can't do it anymore. But
Speaker 1: I always say, you can be as done as you
Speaker 1: want to be. But I never suggest leaving without counseling
Speaker 1: for two reasons. Women tend to carry a lot of
Speaker 1: guilt after divorce, and I feel like going to counseling
Speaker 1: is where you're going to say, all right, now I've
Speaker 1: officially tried everything. We've come to counseling, and also where
Speaker 1: your counselor will say, yeah, it seems you, guys are
Speaker 1: at the end of the road, and you'll get that
Speaker 1: validation that you need. So my advice is always you
Speaker 1: don't want to lay your head down on your pillow
Speaker 1: at night without knowing you've tried everything you can try,
Speaker 1: just because of that mommy guilt that creeps in um.
Speaker 1: But when you feel it, you have to honor it
Speaker 1: and and not overthink it and just kind of go.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that for me was even hard
Speaker 1: because for me, I always was like, Okay, if I
Speaker 1: have that smoking gun, then i'll leave again. Then then
Speaker 1: I'll go. And it's like, you know, I think it
Speaker 1: was hard for my friends too, because it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you got your smoking gun, why aren't you leaving? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, guys, this is not easy, Like this is
Speaker 1: not like what I like, even though I know I
Speaker 1: need to like, it still was like the hardest thing
Speaker 1: I ever had to do, you know. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I think that's even when you have your aha moment,
Speaker 1: like you have no choice, it's still like this. I
Speaker 1: think that's like where the punch hits me, is like
Speaker 1: the the reality of like And I think that's where
Speaker 1: why it was so hard for me, you know, a
Speaker 1: week ago when it all got finalized, It's like I
Speaker 1: knew it was coming. I knew it was going to
Speaker 1: be on this day, and I knew it was gonna
Speaker 1: be a really hard day, and I knew I had
Speaker 1: to show up to work and film and you know,
Speaker 1: feel it and then you know, hold it, push, push
Speaker 1: it all back in. But it was that moment where
Speaker 1: it's like the finality of like the reality that was like, well,
Speaker 1: what what we what? I didn't want ever, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have spend thousands of dollars in therapy and and tried
Speaker 1: and and you know, has spent sleepless nights and all
Speaker 1: the tears and all the like, you know, all the
Speaker 1: trying and all the to to end up here, but
Speaker 1: you ended up here. And that's something I always say,
Speaker 1: like nobody wants to be I remember walking out of
Speaker 1: divorce court four and a half years ago. I'm just like,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what in the health for me? It brought
Speaker 1: up a lot of child to trauma because I'm a
Speaker 1: child of divorce and I swore, I swore I would
Speaker 1: never get divorced and never get married because I never
Speaker 1: wanted to get divorced. Then here I am walking out
Speaker 1: a divorce court by myself. It was like nine oh
Speaker 1: five on a Tuesday morning, and I'm like, huh, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you know? Life just came full circle and
Speaker 1: it was a punch in the gut. As much as
Speaker 1: I knew I had no choice but to be in
Speaker 1: this situation. And I think, you know, accepting what what
Speaker 1: it means to emotionally entire yourself from somebody that hurts
Speaker 1: you will help empower you through the decision. Like you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that you could come to work on the
Speaker 1: day that you got divorced and and just put a
Speaker 1: happy face on and through the day. I want to
Speaker 1: say a large part of that is the drive you
Speaker 1: have because you're a mom and you're gonna make me
Speaker 1: cry stop. Okay. It's a very, very very like, I
Speaker 1: struggle so much with co parenting, Janna. I am in
Speaker 1: between therapy appointments for my daughter right now. We're having
Speaker 1: a very hard time. But it all comes back to
Speaker 1: what I wanted her to grow up seeing in terms
Speaker 1: of a relationship and how how a woman should be
Speaker 1: treated and never have her think that emotional abuse or
Speaker 1: cheating or any of that stuff is okay. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what it comes down to for every woman
Speaker 1: who finally has to leave. Yeah. Yeah, and I and
Speaker 1: I and what this story that you know, we always
Speaker 1: wanted to tell was like, well, look how we overcame it.
Speaker 1: And so now it's like now I have to read
Speaker 1: kind of train my brain of Okay, now this is
Speaker 1: the new story that I have to know tell her.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting that something you
Speaker 1: said to about the guilt, because there's still I mean,
Speaker 1: I woke up today I had just a immense amount
Speaker 1: of anxiety, like, well, if I would have maybe been
Speaker 1: a little less naggy, or maybe if I would have
Speaker 1: been a little less controlling or like and then I
Speaker 1: start to put that on me, like what and there
Speaker 1: are things, of course that we can all be better
Speaker 1: and do better, And there's a million things that I
Speaker 1: wish I could go back and and do different things,
Speaker 1: but I still know the end resull like we don't
Speaker 1: deserve certain things that happened, um, no matter what. But
Speaker 1: still it's just how do you how do you let
Speaker 1: go of those things so you don't just drag yourself
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I want to be happy, you know,
Speaker 1: and I just feel like I'm I'm being like held
Speaker 1: down from the what IF's and the like oh no,
Speaker 1: like and then and also like I think there's the
Speaker 1: moments to have, you know, the anger still comes into
Speaker 1: of the reality. Like just like you said, yes, I've
Speaker 1: been married before, but I didn't want to, like and
Speaker 1: I always would leave to be like, well, I'm not
Speaker 1: having kids because I'm like, I'm again a product of divorce.
Speaker 1: I will not like this is not right. I need
Speaker 1: to because I will not have my kids being a
Speaker 1: doors house ever ever. And then I'm like here we are,
Speaker 1: what how did this happen? Right? You know? And some
Speaker 1: people say really stupid things sometimes like oh my god,
Speaker 1: you should have just left before you had kids, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, well my daughter is my best friend,
Speaker 1: but thanks, um, yeah, I mean, look, nobody, nobody wants
Speaker 1: to be there, but that anxiety and that what if
Speaker 1: I actually posted about it this morning? How my anxiety
Speaker 1: just went into full on overdrive and I started having
Speaker 1: like obsessive compulsive issues, like ruminating thoughts that were horrible
Speaker 1: about like what might happen to my daughter when is
Speaker 1: not with me? I was like over the top and
Speaker 1: I had to really tackle my anxiety at that point.
Speaker 1: But I think it comes down to realizing that like
Speaker 1: if you were less naggy, he wouldn't have had less
Speaker 1: of an issue. If you were less something, if your
Speaker 1: boobs were bigger, if you were more perfect. Like that's
Speaker 1: a degree of infidelity is that it very often has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with us at all. You know, when
Speaker 1: when a woman and cheats, it's because she feels neglected.
Speaker 1: When a man cheats, it's because he's got issues and
Speaker 1: it's nothing more than that. And it's like searching for
Speaker 1: this sense of loss that they felt at some point
Speaker 1: in their lives and it you know, look at Jlo
Speaker 1: and a Rod it's like, you're really, dude, you're gonna
Speaker 1: cheat on JL. Like it never has anything to do
Speaker 1: with the person, So you could have been everything or nothing,
Speaker 1: and it's still would have happened. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what women have to realize, is that marriages don't fall
Speaker 1: apart because of one or two things that they might
Speaker 1: not have done right. It's a lot of stuff that
Speaker 1: people carry when they're coming into marriages that tend to
Speaker 1: get exacerbated. And men are never really the ones to
Speaker 1: like seek the help for themselves. It's the women who
Speaker 1: do all this work, and so you know, to put
Speaker 1: that kind of pressure on yourself is just unfair to you,
Speaker 1: but also really natural. And the anger is natural, and
Speaker 1: the doubt and the insecurity and the anxiety, that's all
Speaker 1: It's all going to come in waves. And I always
Speaker 1: say it takes about a year after your divorce is
Speaker 1: finalized for you to like really level out emotionally and
Speaker 1: start to see things almost with more gratitude for being
Speaker 1: in the situation that you're in now. And I hear
Speaker 1: you say that, and I'm like, Okay, I'm so excited
Speaker 1: for that day, But at the same time, like, how
Speaker 1: could I be grateful that my kids aren't with me
Speaker 1: every day and then I have to say goodbye to them?
Speaker 1: Like that's the part that I'm like those are my babies.
Speaker 1: Like I hate it. I hate it, but you know what,
Speaker 1: aside from having to co parent with somebody who makes
Speaker 1: co parenting difficult, I have. I have manifested exactly the
Speaker 1: life I feel that I always deserved. I went through
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma as a child. I kind of
Speaker 1: grew up telling myself the story that I wasn't worthy
Speaker 1: of a happy life or a happy marriage, that I
Speaker 1: would never have that you know, I'm not like other
Speaker 1: girls because I'm so damaged and broken, and I used
Speaker 1: my divorce as an opportunity to be like, well, fuck,
Speaker 1: I deserve that too, So what do I need to
Speaker 1: do to get that? And I started working on myself
Speaker 1: in ways that has really like, I feel like I
Speaker 1: couldn't have the life I have now had I not
Speaker 1: done all that work. So I chose to heal. And
Speaker 1: I always said like, I'm not done with love yet.
Speaker 1: I didn't have the love I deserved and I'm going
Speaker 1: to get that. And for me, that was really important.
Speaker 1: And I feel, you know, a year from now, a
Speaker 1: week from now, your life can change. You don't know
Speaker 1: what can happen in a year. And everybody writes me
Speaker 1: at the one year mark because I always say, you
Speaker 1: don't know what can happen in a year, and they're like,
Speaker 1: look what happened in a year, and that it's it's
Speaker 1: going to happen for everyone. And you're also going to
Speaker 1: find your comfort in co parenting, Like it took me
Speaker 1: about a year and then it was great. And then
Speaker 1: you know, now my daughter has some issues going to
Speaker 1: her dad's which is hard, but but it comes and
Speaker 1: goes in waves, and you learn to adapt your life
Speaker 1: to the time that you're with them and when you're
Speaker 1: not with them, Like you're going to enjoy parenting so
Speaker 1: much more because you're going to be that much more
Speaker 1: present when you have them, because you know what it
Speaker 1: feels like when you don't have them. And I truly
Speaker 1: think that's the best gift of motherhood and co parenting.
Speaker 1: And I will say to there's something like now it
Speaker 1: I don't have to carry the like when's the next
Speaker 1: you're gonna drop? Or is he really telling the truth?
Speaker 1: Or like is he cheating on me? It's like I'm
Speaker 1: so much happier around my kids now, Like I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm lighter with them, and it's it's that's been
Speaker 1: a gift to Oh my god, but that's but that's
Speaker 1: it right there. Like your children are children, nobody's children,
Speaker 1: anybody listening. They don't deserve to carry the weight of
Speaker 1: our emotions. And we often don't realize when we're in
Speaker 1: these really toxic marriages how much that tension rubs off
Speaker 1: on them, because it does, no matter how much we
Speaker 1: mean for it not to, it does. So that alone
Speaker 1: is a gift to your children. And when you're crying
Speaker 1: because your kids are not with you, you're going to
Speaker 1: remember that they deserve daddy by himself and mommy by
Speaker 1: herself instead of mommy and daddy unhappy together. How do
Speaker 1: you not be so angry with your X because of
Speaker 1: the choices that UM have now affected that reality and
Speaker 1: that dream that you wanted. I think you can be okay,
Speaker 1: you can be angry with your ex. There's um there's
Speaker 1: a psychologist in New York who came on my podcast
Speaker 1: and talked about righteous anger and like, you are righteously angry,
Speaker 1: Like you have a right to be angry. In the
Speaker 1: second you tell yourself, oh, I shouldn't be angry. Anger
Speaker 1: is a bad emotion. You're suppressing everything and it's only
Speaker 1: going to come out in other ways later on be angry.
Speaker 1: Like one of the best things I ever did was
Speaker 1: just starting to Instead of like having three drinks every night,
Speaker 1: I every morning would wake up and drag my ass
Speaker 1: to the gym and try different class every day just
Speaker 1: to keep myself. Instead of running on the treadmill, I've
Speaker 1: kicked box. As cliche as it was, it felt really
Speaker 1: good to hit something. I channeled my anger into, like physicality,
Speaker 1: and I think that that helps, you know. L Wood said, yes,
Speaker 1: happy people just un kill their husband's right exercise and doorphins,
Speaker 1: But it really works for me and I and I
Speaker 1: always tell women they have to find that thing where
Speaker 1: they they can use the anger and process it and
Speaker 1: like get it out, because if it stays inside, it
Speaker 1: turns into all sorts of ugliness. So I can't tell
Speaker 1: you how not to be angry, because you have to
Speaker 1: be angry. You have a right to. But there's like
Speaker 1: a time and a place, just like there's a time
Speaker 1: and a place for crying. You're not going to cry
Speaker 1: all day. You're not going to cry on set, You're
Speaker 1: not going to cry in the car with your kids.
Speaker 1: You're gonna wait till nighttime when it's like you're alone
Speaker 1: in bed, hyperventilating. Um. But it's just it's the same
Speaker 1: with anger. You almost have to say, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to the gym, I'm gonna let it all out right here,
Speaker 1: or I'm going to the beach to sit by myself
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna fucking rage for a few minutes.
Speaker 1: I think you need to have that entitlement to your
Speaker 1: anger and stop telling yourself it's so bad. Then how
Speaker 1: do you co parent with that anger? So I think
Speaker 1: what your ex husband needs to I don't know you
Speaker 1: know his side, but I'm hoping he's taking responsibility that like,
Speaker 1: you're in this situation because of him. And what you
Speaker 1: do when you have all those angry emotions in co parenting,
Speaker 1: is you really just limit contact to what needs to
Speaker 1: be said. You know, you do have to take a
Speaker 1: step back and realize that your children are lucky to
Speaker 1: have a dad in their lives. It would be much
Speaker 1: harder if he did what he did and then just
Speaker 1: bounced right. You have to separate your anger from the
Speaker 1: fact that he is entitled to be their dad. And
Speaker 1: you know, every time you want to pick up the
Speaker 1: phone and be like your mothercker if he's with the kids.
Speaker 1: Know that that's going to take not only time and
Speaker 1: attention away from the kids that he should be giving them,
Speaker 1: but it's also going to pull you into a hole
Speaker 1: when you should be using all of your energy at
Speaker 1: that time to keep things light for yourself because you
Speaker 1: don't have the kids. And I always say one of
Speaker 1: the best things, like when I get really, really really angry,
Speaker 1: is all right, like a raging email and not send it,
Speaker 1: Like I I have notes in my phone, I have
Speaker 1: emails in my drafts, because at least you're taking the
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings and putting them somewhere they're not festering
Speaker 1: inside of you. But also know that sending it will
Speaker 1: get you nowhere, right, Yeah, I say, I'm going to
Speaker 1: have some in my notes as well, and also like,
Speaker 1: you know, my ex as a point to like when
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't have to listen to this anymore,
Speaker 1: you know, But at the part of the same in
Speaker 1: for me as I'm like, I go to that place
Speaker 1: where I'm like I don't feel like I have that
Speaker 1: closure of the apology I've wanted, you know, and so
Speaker 1: or deserved or whatever, and so it's like I'm like,
Speaker 1: how do you not see this or you know, so
Speaker 1: it's not where but that. I'm like, I know me too.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I left my ex husband. First of all,
Speaker 1: it takes two to tango. I did a lot of
Speaker 1: not nice things too, but he pushed me to them
Speaker 1: and I I left him. So it's very easy for
Speaker 1: him to say you destroyed the marriage, you did this,
Speaker 1: And for two years I would say, no, I did
Speaker 1: this because and you don't see things my way, and
Speaker 1: I wanted that closure until I realized there is no
Speaker 1: such thing as closure. It's more of an inside job,
Speaker 1: like you have to make peace with it inside yourself.
Speaker 1: Because no matter I posted this the other day, no
Speaker 1: matter how well written the texts, no matter how logical
Speaker 1: or rational, they're not going to see things our way,
Speaker 1: like they're just not. We can't. Men are like children,
Speaker 1: even the good ones. And the more you tell them
Speaker 1: no it's yes, it's more to you tell them yes
Speaker 1: it's no, and there's nothing we can say that they're
Speaker 1: going to be like, oh okay, even if they did,
Speaker 1: they can't hop in their time machine and change, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever they did wrong. So I think it's really just
Speaker 1: a matter of understanding that as much as you want
Speaker 1: to have him like eat ship for what he did.
Speaker 1: It serves no purpose anymore. Well here's that. Let me
Speaker 1: just play devil's advocate, which I don't want to do,
Speaker 1: but I do this when I ruminate in like fester
Speaker 1: in my sadness. Um is, if you just said that statement,
Speaker 1: then couldn't you just say the same thing, Well, I
Speaker 1: cheated on you because you did this and because you
Speaker 1: wouldn't you know, you made me feel this way? That's
Speaker 1: gas lighting? But isn't that kind of what you just
Speaker 1: said though? Too? Like because because I said the same,
Speaker 1: I've said the same thing. Well, I'm I'm angry and
Speaker 1: I'm shaming you because you treated on me. So but
Speaker 1: isn't that like we were both isn't that kind of
Speaker 1: the same thing? Yeah? Absolutely, But he's not gonna It's
Speaker 1: not like you're going to say I'm doing this because
Speaker 1: you're you cheated on me, and he's going to be like, okay,
Speaker 1: go ahead, you know please, By all means, he's not
Speaker 1: going to do that. Men are defensive and their whole
Speaker 1: lives are um driven by their egos, whereas our lives
Speaker 1: are really driven by anxiety and fear. So it's it's
Speaker 1: like your anxiety fighting his ego and it just goes
Speaker 1: in circles. But is it? But I mean, like, is
Speaker 1: it okay for them to say that because we're saying
Speaker 1: the same thing though, because it's like, well, I'm doing
Speaker 1: this because you did this, and then he said, well,
Speaker 1: I cheat on you because you were a naggy, controlling wife.
Speaker 1: Your perspectives are arguing with each other and and your
Speaker 1: perspective is very different from his. And so you're never
Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, you cheated on me. You're right,
Speaker 1: I nagged you too much on that Tuesday three months ago.
Speaker 1: You're not going to say that, and he's gonna he's
Speaker 1: not going to say that you're right. So both of
Speaker 1: you are adding fuel to the fire when you should
Speaker 1: kind of just be like, you know, backing off and
Speaker 1: just following the parenting plan and live and let live.
Speaker 1: Like he made his bed and he needs to lie
Speaker 1: on it. He's forever going to be the guy that
Speaker 1: couldn't keep it in his pants and ruined a happy
Speaker 1: marriage and you're not. You're going to be the one
Speaker 1: who moves on. So how do you walk away not
Speaker 1: having that real closure and apology? I think it's you
Speaker 1: have to have it with yourself. You have to be
Speaker 1: strong enough, you have to find the strength inside of
Speaker 1: yourself to say there is nothing in the world that
Speaker 1: can change the situation, right, And so I'm choosing to
Speaker 1: make the best out of the hand I've been dealt.
Speaker 1: Is it the hand I wanted to play? Absolutely not,
Speaker 1: But I have it, And now I have an opportunity
Speaker 1: to change the course of my relationships and change how
Speaker 1: I'm loved, and change the way my children view their
Speaker 1: mom being treated. And you really just have to, you know,
Speaker 1: want to. Once you accept it, I think that's all
Speaker 1: the closure you need. Yeah, you mentioned uh, j Lo.
Speaker 1: And it's it's interesting because so many people are like, well,
Speaker 1: how is she healthy because she just moved right onto
Speaker 1: then first of all, wrong like wrong, j Lo. Wrong,
Speaker 1: But also we most of us are very confused as
Speaker 1: to whether this is even real, right, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to be real the seaway, Like
Speaker 1: I keep sending it to my friend Brian Davis, who's
Speaker 1: she's been on the show. She's a she's a sex
Speaker 1: and love addict, and I'm I'm like, but look it,
Speaker 1: and she's like, Janna, it's not real, this is in
Speaker 1: first Like that's so I'm like, but like I believe
Speaker 1: in love and I want love, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: they they they've found each other again. Like I'm like
Speaker 1: a big advocate for then hey, you know what if
Speaker 1: it is real good for them, But like she hasn't
Speaker 1: done the healing, so you know, like if you don't
Speaker 1: heal your ship, it's just going to come out in
Speaker 1: the next relationship. So unless she just wasn't that into
Speaker 1: a rod because he's such a cheesy idiot, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, Like, but here's the here's the thing. I
Speaker 1: saw this on Instagram because this is one of my
Speaker 1: my big things that I've been fighting with myself is
Speaker 1: can you heal while still while you know, being with
Speaker 1: someone else. And I do think you can. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think that if you're with someone who has also
Speaker 1: committed to their own growth, that's the best relationship you
Speaker 1: can be in. I think we're you know, people would say,
Speaker 1: don't get into a relationship too quickly after a divorce.
Speaker 1: I met my now husband two months later. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was a couple of years out of his marriage. I
Speaker 1: was two months out of mine. But for a year
Speaker 1: before that, in my marriage where we were sleeping in
Speaker 1: two separate rooms and miserable. I knew that, like, I
Speaker 1: had work to do and I was going to do
Speaker 1: it no matter what. And when I met my now husband,
Speaker 1: I'm like, look like this is fresh for me and
Speaker 1: it's going to be ugly and there's gonna be like
Speaker 1: should I need to go through? And he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm trust me. I'm working on my own stuff because
Speaker 1: he came out of a really long marriage and had
Speaker 1: his own stuff to work on, and so we're both
Speaker 1: very committed to our growth. And that's when I think
Speaker 1: it is safe to have a relationship after so soon
Speaker 1: after a separation. But you also have to be really
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that when you if you choose
Speaker 1: somebody as a rebound, like j Lo and Ben, a
Speaker 1: lot of times rebounds are just a way for you
Speaker 1: to go back into familiar patterns, even if the relationship
Speaker 1: was awful. Maybe there's something in Ben that is for me.
Speaker 1: I think she likes to fix her upper you know.
Speaker 1: A Rod was always a cheat. I've known him since
Speaker 1: I threw his thirtieth birthday when I was a publicist
Speaker 1: for the forty forty Club in New York City. Like
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. I remember, like he's there with his
Speaker 1: wife and he's like looking at all these pointment was
Speaker 1: um Anyway, I think she likes to fix her upper
Speaker 1: and Ben has his own issues, so I think she's
Speaker 1: somebody who deflects from her own stuff maybe and focuses
Speaker 1: on the other person, which many people do. That it's
Speaker 1: a motherly nurturing type of thing. But hey, he looks
Speaker 1: like a rebound daddy if I've ever seen one. Like
Speaker 1: good for her if it's working out, I know, But
Speaker 1: I think that's also you know, because people will comment
Speaker 1: on on my stuff too, and I'm like, man, I've
Speaker 1: been unhappy for five years, and I'm like, I want to.
Speaker 1: I want to be happy, and I want to I
Speaker 1: have so I know I have so much work to do.
Speaker 1: I know that, and I'm doing the work and I'm
Speaker 1: going to therapy and talking to my therapist. But I'm
Speaker 1: also like, I want to you know, if i'm if
Speaker 1: I'm if I find that happiness in the healing, Like
Speaker 1: I don't want to be judged like oh you moved
Speaker 1: on too fast, or Jenna, you're in the public eye,
Speaker 1: You're going to be judged no matter what you I
Speaker 1: hate being the comments like kill me, and I'm like
Speaker 1: and so I'm like, okay, they're right, Like I need
Speaker 1: to know. I'm like, why am I? Why am I
Speaker 1: like basing my life and my love life off of
Speaker 1: what people think that I'm doing or not doing. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, Amanda, she lost her husband, and I'm like, Jesus, like,
Speaker 1: let the woman be happy. People right, right, so you
Speaker 1: can answers. There's no timeline for grief, like, and you're
Speaker 1: gonna always I'm gonna always gonna grieve my divorce. There
Speaker 1: will always be a piece that I'm gonna grieve that loss,
Speaker 1: whether I'm happily married again. I believe if people aren't
Speaker 1: paying your bills or taking care of your children, they
Speaker 1: have no right. You know, nobody really has a right
Speaker 1: to dictate what you do now or how you do it,
Speaker 1: Like you have to do it in a way that
Speaker 1: feels right for you. And it sucks to be in
Speaker 1: the public eye. And you know, these angry people that
Speaker 1: sit behind a keyboard on Instagram and like make judgments
Speaker 1: on other people's lives. I get it too. And I'm
Speaker 1: you know, eight hundred thousand followers less than you. So
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine, but it's it's something that you
Speaker 1: really just you know. My publisher told me the other day, like,
Speaker 1: don't read, don't read the reviews, don't read the comments,
Speaker 1: like you know, cancel. Culture is real. People suck, but
Speaker 1: opinions are like assholes and everybody's got one. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna someone will say something about you no matter what
Speaker 1: you do. Like that's that's just how it is. I
Speaker 1: know I want a approval, right and someone told me
Speaker 1: I'll never get that, and that makes me angry. No,
Speaker 1: they told me in one of my marketing meetings from
Speaker 1: my book. They were like, just do you know of
Speaker 1: all reviews are going to be negative. It's just science.
Speaker 1: And I'm like what They're like, Yeah, these people won't
Speaker 1: even read the book, they'll just negatively review you. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh cool, Like I'm gonna have to have like more
Speaker 1: zolof to add it to the mix. Oh man, zolof.
Speaker 1: I just switched to lexapro. That was my really, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was all off. I gained like twenty pounds and
Speaker 1: I was felt nothing. So then I moved to lexe Pro. Now,
Speaker 1: I like, I still have anxiety attacks, but not to
Speaker 1: the extent. Yeah, but it works for you know, different
Speaker 1: for everybody. But I'm curious on how, because you are
Speaker 1: so public and you are so open, does your ex
Speaker 1: get upset with you for having this um like being
Speaker 1: open about things that you talk about, because I think
Speaker 1: that's a big you know, one of the reasons I
Speaker 1: wanted to quit the show is because it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't want that heat from the you know him or
Speaker 1: an you know or his friends are being like, oh god,
Speaker 1: she's playing the victim, and it's like, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to like find strength and to share my story and
Speaker 1: I'm not looking for I'm not trying to be victimized.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not trying to victimize myself. I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to you know, heal and talk about it. I
Speaker 1: think there's so much healing and there's so much power
Speaker 1: in in authenticity and sharing your story. But I have
Speaker 1: become very mindful, um you know, whereas four years ago
Speaker 1: I post, I'd be that girl that like post the
Speaker 1: quote that you're like, oh no, what happened to her?
Speaker 1: Like you know, waiting for someone to ask, But he
Speaker 1: would obviously get very triggered by that, and over time,
Speaker 1: as I realized that people are coming to me for
Speaker 1: help and comfort. I never wanted to paint him in
Speaker 1: a negative light despite our issues, out of respect for
Speaker 1: my child and because that doesn't do anything to help anybody.
Speaker 1: You know, I have a Facebook group where the rule
Speaker 1: is very simple, like, we don't come here at event
Speaker 1: and bash, like we're here for uplifting stuff. We have
Speaker 1: to get through this, we don't have to pull each
Speaker 1: other down into it. So I make a conscious effort
Speaker 1: to really, if I'm talking about the end of my
Speaker 1: marriage or what contributed to it, to talk about my
Speaker 1: flaws and what I did wrong and what I messed up.
Speaker 1: And you know, my ax also was very unhealed and
Speaker 1: the two of us together were toxic, but that was
Speaker 1: on me. I put myself in that relationship and state
Speaker 1: in that situation. So I talked a lot about it
Speaker 1: from my personal perspective, and my book is not going
Speaker 1: to dive into the nitty gritty of him. It really
Speaker 1: is everything through the lens of where I needed to
Speaker 1: change and why the marriage was bad because of me.
Speaker 1: Um So, you know, yeah, no, does he like that
Speaker 1: I've become successful over the fact that we got divorced.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, but he also can't say that I don't
Speaker 1: take the blame. Will blame is due in certain areas? Sure, Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's a good a good thing
Speaker 1: because it's in this situation. It's like we could run
Speaker 1: over them, probably with the truck, but like we have
Speaker 1: our children that we're protecting, and I don't want them
Speaker 1: reading those things. And it's also like, what's the point.
Speaker 1: What's the point. It's not going to do anything I
Speaker 1: don't like, like bad energy or bad karma, not confrontational
Speaker 1: at all. So I'd rather move. Also, I'd really like
Speaker 1: for my ex to meet somebody nice, So like I
Speaker 1: don't want people to think that he's bad because he's not.
Speaker 1: We were just bad together. So I you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's always touchy when you're gonna put yourself out there.
Speaker 1: And again, like people are going to be unhappy no
Speaker 1: matter what you say, like ex husbands or ex spouses.
Speaker 1: I get d M all the time asking but what
Speaker 1: did he actually do wrong that you were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's it. I'll never share that. I just won't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a I get that one a lot too. And
Speaker 1: it's like I I have my two kids I'm looking
Speaker 1: up for and at the end of the day, it's like,
Speaker 1: does it even matter anymore? It doesn't you have them,
Speaker 1: And what matters is that you be the report in
Speaker 1: the storm right now when you start? Are you co
Speaker 1: parenting already? Yeah? And it's I think that's gonna be.
Speaker 1: So I'm in Connecticut right now, film in a movie.
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week and um, you know, we
Speaker 1: we had this summer arrangement and now school schedule will
Speaker 1: start and that's going to be I think that's when
Speaker 1: it's really going to hit me, just like the you know,
Speaker 1: the every Wednesday, every other weekend and um yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just it's once I'm home and getting in that regular schedule,
Speaker 1: I think it's really gonna I'm gonna have to do
Speaker 1: some major healing around that and grind. Yeah, listen, it's
Speaker 1: you have to. I wrote a whole um chapter in
Speaker 1: my book about my first weekend without Bella and how
Speaker 1: insane I drove myself. That's also I posted about it
Speaker 1: this morning that that's what led me to calling my
Speaker 1: doctor and being like I'm not okay, Like I can't
Speaker 1: even pretend to be okay right now. And that's when
Speaker 1: I went on anxiety medication. But you know there are
Speaker 1: going to be first for everything. Now, first birthday without them,
Speaker 1: or first somebody loses a tooth and you're not there
Speaker 1: and you want to like just stab yourself in the heart.
Speaker 1: But like it's the reality of parenting in pieces, and
Speaker 1: as much as it sucks, it is much better than
Speaker 1: forcing yourself to stay in a situation that would break
Speaker 1: you emotionally. So talk about the book. It's available for preorder. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about it. It's it's got like thirty chapters.
Speaker 1: It's like every how to every first thing you're going
Speaker 1: to encounter, how to pull yourself out of bed in
Speaker 1: the morning, A lot of it has Um. I talk
Speaker 1: about journaling a lot because that was very helpful for me,
Speaker 1: just like I said, to write the anger text and
Speaker 1: not send it, getting your feelings out on paper, like
Speaker 1: it's like free therapy. Um. So it's called Mom's Moving On,
Speaker 1: Real Life Advice for Conquering Divorce, co Parenting through Conflict,
Speaker 1: and Becoming your Best Self, which you can pre order,
Speaker 1: which I will be preordering right now. The I'm happy
Speaker 1: to send you one, but thank thanks so much. And
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's like, really, I'm very open,
Speaker 1: as you know I have, I wear my heart on
Speaker 1: my sleeve, So I think it's like a really empowering,
Speaker 1: like you've got this type of thing, while also honoring
Speaker 1: that if you don't, it's okay too, because divorce is
Speaker 1: shitty and so is co parenting. And in no way,
Speaker 1: shape or form does my book promote like second marriage
Speaker 1: as you're happily ever after. I actually told my publisher
Speaker 1: I wouldn't write about getting remarried because I don't think
Speaker 1: that that's what sets the tone for happy life after divorce.
Speaker 1: I think it's really all about accepting yourself and you know,
Speaker 1: coming to terms with who you are as an individual
Speaker 1: and as a mother in this stage of your life,
Speaker 1: and finding in our happiness, not finding it anywhere else.
Speaker 1: I one thousand percent agree with to like, I just
Speaker 1: want to be happy for me and not because I'm
Speaker 1: with somebody else or you know, I'm dating. It's like,
Speaker 1: I just want to be like I want that, I
Speaker 1: want to be enough. You know from me, you are
Speaker 1: preaching to the anxiously attachment style choir, Like I was
Speaker 1: an anxious attachment person because I had daddy issues. I
Speaker 1: didn't have a dad in my life who wanted me,
Speaker 1: and so it was like, oh my god, you looked
Speaker 1: at me. I love you, and I couldn't be that
Speaker 1: person anymore, which was I was listen when I got separated.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first thing was like all right, yeah,
Speaker 1: booty call like for sure. And then I remember thinking, like,
Speaker 1: I can't have a guy wake up in my house.
Speaker 1: You know, all these guys were like coming out of
Speaker 1: the woodwork, and I'm like, I can't be that person now,
Speaker 1: Like I really can't be that person now. I have
Speaker 1: to be okay alone. As much as I wanted to
Speaker 1: say yes to that hot bartender or whatever, I couldn't
Speaker 1: do it. I couldn't do it. And I forced myself yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and then, you know, two months later, how
Speaker 1: did you let your like how did you let that
Speaker 1: love back? It back in Jenna? I knew I was
Speaker 1: going to marry him from so he lived in so
Speaker 1: it's a ridiculous story. He lived in my mom's building
Speaker 1: here in Miami, and and I had moved to a
Speaker 1: little town house with my daughter, and I'd pick her
Speaker 1: up from school at two o'clock every day, and it
Speaker 1: was like kind of lonely just going back to our townhouse,
Speaker 1: the two of us. So I would go to my
Speaker 1: mom's apartment and she lives on the water, and I
Speaker 1: would walk Bella and her stroller around the marina and
Speaker 1: like the for or four thirty. Every day, this like
Speaker 1: hot guy would come with his daughter and and go
Speaker 1: fishing off the pier. And I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I never saw a ring, but I was not going
Speaker 1: to pick him up. But I just like looked at
Speaker 1: him and remember thinking like, that's the guy. His physicality
Speaker 1: was what I always envisioned myself with. He was tall
Speaker 1: and dark and sexy hair and um, and I didn't nothing,
Speaker 1: you know, came of it. And then we were both
Speaker 1: in our the same edition of our city's newspaper. He
Speaker 1: was on the cover for something he had done in court.
Speaker 1: He's a judge, and um, I was way back in
Speaker 1: like the last page for something else. And he wrote
Speaker 1: to me on LinkedIn and I but we were talking
Speaker 1: on the phone before we went out, and I told
Speaker 1: my best friend the morning of our first date, I
Speaker 1: was like, I know, everything's going to be different after tonight.
Speaker 1: And when you meet someone that you connect with in
Speaker 1: the way that you were never even able to connect
Speaker 1: with in your marriage, no matter how much you loved
Speaker 1: your ex husband, like I loved my ex husband, but
Speaker 1: we really just didn't connect on a lot of levels.
Speaker 1: It was almost like I found like home, like I
Speaker 1: like and it's been like a sigh of relief every
Speaker 1: day since. Like it really is a comfortable, almost like
Speaker 1: we've known each other in our past life kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I'm just I'm happy that you
Speaker 1: found your healing, but also you know, found that person
Speaker 1: that and he gives me my space to heal, like good,
Speaker 1: he gives me my like I'm in there. I spend
Speaker 1: more money on therapy than anything else between me and
Speaker 1: my daughter. And also he's where I used to take
Speaker 1: out my stress, Like I used to ignore my stress
Speaker 1: and anxiety by being like pay attention to me. Now
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm I'm very clear, Like I'll text him
Speaker 1: before he gets home from work and I'll be like,
Speaker 1: I need to not talk to anybody tonight. It's not you,
Speaker 1: it's me. I'm triggered by whatever. Like give me my space.
Speaker 1: And he's really good about that too well, And that's
Speaker 1: that's amazing too, because it's like that shows you and
Speaker 1: that's kind of I'm like, I'm gonna pat myself on
Speaker 1: the back too. I usually do not like being alone,
Speaker 1: but like when I'm home, friends you know, are like, hey,
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna come over, and like, I honestly like
Speaker 1: I want to be alone, and I just want time
Speaker 1: and my thoughts. And it's like, holy crap, Like that
Speaker 1: was big for me to realize too, that you know
Speaker 1: I'm slowly heal. Yeah, yeah, for me, it took so
Speaker 1: much time, Are you kidding? I had never been single
Speaker 1: in my life, and it took I was so alone
Speaker 1: in my marriage that I in the last year of
Speaker 1: my marriage, I felt like I just was single and
Speaker 1: I was so lonely that I got comfortable in that
Speaker 1: loneliness and that being alone. So I feel like I've
Speaker 1: worked so hard to be okay alone that when I
Speaker 1: need it, I need it and nothing can compromise that. Well, Michelle,
Speaker 1: I just like I appreciate you coming on and just
Speaker 1: being so open and and thank you for being a
Speaker 1: resource to me and so many other women and men
Speaker 1: that you know need need your help. So thank you
Speaker 1: for having me. I'm glad I worked out. Where can
Speaker 1: my listeners find you if they haven't already. I'm on
Speaker 1: Instagram at the Michelle dem cy um. My website is
Speaker 1: Mom's Moving On dot com podcast is Mom's Moving On,
Speaker 1: which I would love to have you on when you're yes, Um, everyone,
Speaker 1: I told you my d MS were like have Janna,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, sure, let me just go scoop her up. Um,
Speaker 1: and I have a membership community that's free for women.
Speaker 1: I'm a divorce coach, but if if the coaching price
Speaker 1: point is out of somebody's reach, I don't want anybody
Speaker 1: to go without the support that they need. So I
Speaker 1: do have a membership community that women can join for
Speaker 1: free and they have access tom are my private Facebook
Speaker 1: group and Q and as with me and um. The
Speaker 1: book Mom's Moving On is available on Amazon, Barnes and
Speaker 1: Noble and a bunch of other places. Now, amazing, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for you and I will be sliding
Speaker 1: into your d M thanking you and also asking if
Speaker 1: you can coach me. So you got it? Okay, perfect,
Speaker 1: Thanks Michelle, I appreciate you of course. Bye bye. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: that was an amazing conversation with Michelle. Uh, and I
Speaker 1: guess the underlying or I don't know I don't even
Speaker 1: want to say underlying overlying theme. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: um that it's all going to be okay, and in
Speaker 1: one year, in one day, tomorrow, the next week, Like
Speaker 1: just keep on keep on moving and um healing and
Speaker 1: do the work, um even though it's really freaking hard,
Speaker 1: but um, and that's with everything in life. Just to
Speaker 1: continue to do the work, continue to grow, and continue
Speaker 1: to be the person that you want to be. And UM,
Speaker 1: I'm here doing the work with you. So see you
Speaker 1: next week.