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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And TikTok has sued the US government

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Speaker 1: for violating their First Amendment rights.

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Speaker 2: We have a historic studded show today.

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Speaker 1: MSNBC is Jen Saki stops by to talk about her

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Speaker 1: brand new books, Say More Lessons from Work the White

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Speaker 1: House in the World. Then we'll talk to philosopher Jason

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Speaker 1: Stanley about America's creep towards fascism. But first we have

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Speaker 1: former White House communications director and host of the podcast

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Speaker 1: How to Win twenty twenty four, Jennifer Paul Mary. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics. Jennifer Paul Mary.

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Speaker 2: Happy to be here, Mollie, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm such a fan of yours, and I also like

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Speaker 1: anytime I see you, I'm like, oh, you know, there

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Speaker 1: are people where you're just like, there's a little bit soothing.

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Speaker 2: I get. That's good. That's good, that's good. I hope

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Speaker 2: I make people feel better today.

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Speaker 1: You worked in white houses, you've worked on campaigns, You've

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Speaker 1: literally done it all. There's something horrible about how it

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Speaker 1: feels right now. Can you match it to any other

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Speaker 1: moment in your sort of history at.

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Speaker 3: Such lower stakes that people might find it laughable, but

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Speaker 3: it reminds me of twenty twelve and being in the

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Speaker 3: White House in twenty twelve when Obama was running for reelection.

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Speaker 2: And it was just the same kind of sense.

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Speaker 3: Now again like in the parallel universe, you know, different

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Speaker 3: kind of scale, but just like we felt like we

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Speaker 3: had done a lot, we didn't feel like any of

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Speaker 3: it was taking hold. Obamacare was not popular, and you know,

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Speaker 3: Santa Romney, who's someone like even in the time, our

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Speaker 3: opponent we had a lot of respect for, Like we

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Speaker 3: really thought the wrong chords and it was very hard

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Speaker 3: to get traction, and the polls were not great, and

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Speaker 3: there was a lot and we could see a lot

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Speaker 3: on the horizon from me until November that could be problematic,

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Speaker 3: from Gad's crisis rising to met healthcare premiums possibly rising.

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Speaker 3: People associated that with health care and just like having

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Speaker 3: non gotten over the recession and feeling like things that

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Speaker 3: were out of your control we're going to impact the election.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like that it's kind of a good

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Speaker 3: parallel to how it feels now where we see Lake.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to fathom than although there were two national

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Speaker 3: poles that had Biden up by five, very excited and

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Speaker 3: ascy that particualing with where you feel like you have

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Speaker 3: a good argument to make and it's not taking hold

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Speaker 3: and things outside of your control and to determine the election,

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Speaker 3: it feels like twelve. David Ploff was the President's senior

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Speaker 3: advisor in the White House that year, and he would do,

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Speaker 3: you know, Bridger for us every week, and then at

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Speaker 3: the end, I would wait for my servame thing Molly,

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Speaker 3: which was for David to say in the end, I'd

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Speaker 3: rather be up for them, And there were some weeks

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Speaker 3: where he did not say that. He never said up one,

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Speaker 3: I'd rather be them than us. But it's just and

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Speaker 3: I would in this case, I would definitely rather be

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Speaker 3: a side of Bide then than then. I think in

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Speaker 3: the end, what Biden has to do to win is easier,

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Speaker 3: even by sort of like traditional electoral standards, than what

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Speaker 3: Trump has to do win.

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you for giving me a modern

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Speaker 1: historical precedent, because one of the things I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 1: is that we never, for whatever reason, punditry is shaped

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Speaker 1: in a way that we're never asked to just look

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Speaker 1: back at like four years ago, and there's so many

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Speaker 1: lessons to be gleaned from the very recent past that

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Speaker 1: I'm always shocked that we don't do that. Like the

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Speaker 1: midterms a great example. I do think like that is

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Speaker 1: so useful. But also when I was in DC for

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Speaker 1: White House Correspondence Weekend, the Blur of parties.

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Speaker 2: Though, there was a place where they had a chocolate station.

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Speaker 1: By the way, my friend was like, I've never seen

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Speaker 1: you happier than when you wandered into a party and

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Speaker 1: they had like a whole chocolate station.

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Speaker 2: Was it like a fountain, Like I talk about fountain.

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Speaker 2: They have it in Manhattan. It's very expensive.

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Speaker 1: It has these sheets of chocolate, like you go in

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Speaker 1: for a chocolate bar and you spend eighty bucks, you know, so.

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Speaker 2: It's very expensive.

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Speaker 1: But they had it's ledakorie anyway, I'm mispronouncing if someone's

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Speaker 1: going to write me an angry email, but they had it,

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Speaker 1: and I like found a bag and started like it

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Speaker 1: was like I was at a barn.

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Speaker 2: It's fars up thing.

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Speaker 1: And I always say, you know, so that was the

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Speaker 1: best moment of the whole weekend. But I went to

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Speaker 1: you know, some of those things have, like we present

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Speaker 1: information to you, which usually is not so interesting. But

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Speaker 1: this was some polling numbers which I hate, and think

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Speaker 1: that the poll was maybe a little bit, a little

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Speaker 1: bit suspect. But what I thought was interesting was he

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Speaker 1: said the closest parallel was twenty twelve. Oh interesting polling wise,

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Speaker 1: because he said people are not happy and they're not excited.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of parallels, you know, he said

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Speaker 1: the stakes are obviously ten times higher, right, but that

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Speaker 1: Biden too looks a lot like Obama.

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Speaker 2: Too, right right, Yeah, that's all Field.

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Speaker 3: They were the same, you know, all on a different scale,

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Speaker 3: the same but the same dynamics. But I do feel

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Speaker 3: like there are things in our favor this time that

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Speaker 3: definitely did not exist in twelve two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean the things though that are on Budden's favor

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Speaker 1: this time are like the things that could seriously end

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Speaker 1: American democracy if they're not, you know, like Mitt Romney.

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Speaker 1: Nobody worried that Mitt Romney was going to end American democracy.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the salad days, Yeah, I know, I know.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's not how you eat fish. I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: When he has a catchup and this he makes a

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Speaker 1: fish hamburger, I mean that is like the he's a.

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Speaker 2: Very rich guy. Did they not send anyone to just

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Speaker 2: like make a little food for him? It's definitely his

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Speaker 2: own man.

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Speaker 3: Like we learned that, you know, like you still to

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Speaker 3: learn that they had that great documentary about him. Of

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Speaker 3: the course that his family I think children that are

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Speaker 3: pine and it was really great that they didn't. You know,

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Speaker 3: like all back campaign decisions came out after the election

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Speaker 3: and I was like.

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Speaker 2: Not happen, you know.

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Speaker 3: Then he saw the mcmah every kind of know today

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Speaker 3: not that met Romney the Obama campaign to fight in

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Speaker 3: June of twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they did a good They did a really good

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Speaker 1: That was a good campaign.

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Speaker 2: You were in the White House then I was in

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Speaker 2: the White House then.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because Biden world, it's like it's so

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Speaker 1: quaint compared to Trump world. But you know, if you

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Speaker 1: ask someone in the Biden White House about the campaign there,

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Speaker 1: oh we can't talk about that because that there's a

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Speaker 1: firewall between the two. Meanwhile, Trumpetti's press secretary writing checks,

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Speaker 1: you know, not checks, but dealing with the porn star checks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, oh yeah, it's amazing just looking at at

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Speaker 1: the landscape. The thing that people love to do is

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Speaker 1: like saying, well, you know, this is how Biden world

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Speaker 1: should be doing this or that. Oh yeah, you actually

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Speaker 1: know how to do that stuff. Most of the people

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Speaker 1: working in the White House, I can't speak to everyone,

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Speaker 1: but the people I know who work there are like

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Speaker 1: some of the nicest people in the entire world. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like it seems like a very kind of organized,

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Speaker 1: you know, not very dramatic, you know, work environment, which

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Speaker 1: is why people don't like to read books about them.

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Speaker 1: But right, I mean, because it's like pretty boring. But

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Speaker 1: do you see anything where you feel like they're not

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Speaker 1: doing it right?

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Speaker 3: Their biggest challenge is breaking through, right, and so I

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Speaker 3: think that they and I would say from the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the year to now, I think they've done a

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Speaker 3: They've done a really good job.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's like, oh, they're so late.

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Speaker 3: You're like, it's many people Like they had people in

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Speaker 3: battleground states earlier.

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Speaker 2: Than usual, earlier than we did in twelve.

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Speaker 3: They had you know, the president was doing battleground state

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Speaker 3: travel on January fifth, you know above, but we didn't

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Speaker 3: do that until June. They have a ton of money

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Speaker 3: and they're using it really smartly and the polls are right.

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Speaker 3: So like that is there's like group of concepts right there,

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Speaker 3: and it is like there will I'm sure there will

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Speaker 3: come a time in the next sixth month where some

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Speaker 3: mady charitable will happen or gas prices will go up

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Speaker 3: or whatever, and like he will fly back down.

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Speaker 2: But the point is, like why people.

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Speaker 3: Should feel good is that, you know, when they've had

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Speaker 3: some runway of you know, obviously the GODSA conflict is

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Speaker 3: a huge problem, but they've had some runway to make

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Speaker 3: their argument and there's evidence that it is taking hold.

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Speaker 2: So like that's durable, Okay.

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Speaker 3: But the thing that I think, I think that in

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Speaker 3: terms of because it's harder than a breakthrough if they

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Speaker 3: try to go to places when they were doing events

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Speaker 3: that were in direct conflict with Trump, like go to Wakeco,

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Speaker 3: Texas where.

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Speaker 2: He announced his campaign.

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Speaker 3: Everyone like this the scene of the branch Davidian fire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was insane. That was insane. That was last April.

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Speaker 3: He went there to announce his reelect and you know

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Speaker 3: the Dan six him and the whole you know, the

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Speaker 3: whole bit, you know, go there and to talk about democracy,

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Speaker 3: go stand out in sead of Jocelyn Benson Home and

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Speaker 3: Michigan the Secretary of State, where people were you know

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Speaker 3: there like an arm protests after the election, saying and

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Speaker 3: like they wanted her to overturn Michigan election to try

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Speaker 3: to find the dramatic backdro off or something that's in

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Speaker 3: durrect conflict with Trump that will like let their argument

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Speaker 3: puncture the bubble, because it is very hard. The one

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Speaker 3: time where I felt like they really broke through and

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Speaker 3: got to Trump was when Biden went to the border

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Speaker 3: a couple of months ago. I guess he announced he's

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Speaker 3: going to the border, and then Trump chases him to

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Speaker 3: the border. You're like great, And then polling showed that

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Speaker 3: sixty three percent of Americans blamed Trump and the House

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Speaker 3: Republicans for the border security bill not getting pad. You know,

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Speaker 3: so that it's like, I think, if you have you know,

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Speaker 3: that is the one sort of tactic that I think

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Speaker 3: would work that I don't see them doing. Always VP

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Speaker 3: did that. She went to Florida, Right, That's where I

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Speaker 3: can do. Somebody needs to be in Florida on May one.

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Speaker 3: I would go to some red states too, you know,

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Speaker 3: particularly one abortion, because I think that women everywhere in America,

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Speaker 3: even if you're part of the sec you have rights

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Speaker 3: and the re United Stations have your back, and I

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Speaker 3: think that and not the kind of thing that would

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Speaker 3: break through as well. And by it, I think ultimately,

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Speaker 3: you know, part of white Biden will win. It's this

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Speaker 3: decent thing and you like for opportunities for that to

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Speaker 3: come through. That just work keeps popping up a lot lately,

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Speaker 3: and it's very true of him.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point and that we

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Speaker 1: have seen more of that. And by the way, every

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Speaker 1: time we see that, when we see like you know,

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Speaker 1: them go aggressive, people in the mainstream media are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's like you're running against a guy who wants to

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Speaker 1: end American democracy and.

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Speaker 2: You're like and so wow, right, it's like, oh Biden

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Speaker 2: wor all this going? You know, Oh this is that

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Speaker 2: we're not used to this from Biden.

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Speaker 1: It's like we're not used to him wanting to win,

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Speaker 1: so we don't all have to move to Brazil.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the framing is insane.

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Speaker 3: I know, I know, I know, I know, I know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know I've been doing only with it

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Speaker 3: for twenty five years, and but you know, I go

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Speaker 3: back and read books just like the Crater White Health

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Speaker 3: bitching about the New York Times, the Kennedy White Health

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Speaker 3: pitching about the cart like some dictator was attacking him

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Speaker 3: in the third world country is like, oh Di's the

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Speaker 3: first work with leaction of posts. You know, the mainstream

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Speaker 3: media liked to beat up on Democrats to prove that

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Speaker 3: they're not really on our side.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that is what it's about.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's what it's about. And that's a really good point.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was listening to this audio book now

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Speaker 1: I can't find it about how the right loves autocrats

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Speaker 1: because basically the history of the right and autocrats.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because you know, I had these.

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Speaker 1: You know, my grandfather was this liberal writer who wrote

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Speaker 1: for the Nation and for a lot of places, went

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Speaker 1: to jail for the House of American Activities. People were

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Speaker 1: mad at him because he was very late to disavow Stalin.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my dad, he was the last living recipient

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Speaker 1: of the Stalin Peace Prize.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so whoa they were.

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Speaker 1: Mistakes were made, Mistakes were made, but when you look,

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Speaker 1: I know, not good.

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Speaker 2: My dad said he founded in the garage. That's amazing

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Speaker 2: was that that he done it. We were in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty four. That's late to begin to stall in peace price. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's not good.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, you know, even the times with the Autocrat

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Speaker 1: stuff like, there is a sort of over correction on

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Speaker 1: the part of the mainstream media.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a really important point. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I remember talking to somebody when I worked for all

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Speaker 3: the way back the network for President Clinton, and they

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Speaker 3: were giving us a really hard time about gas pricess.

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Speaker 2: The press were and like, what President's going to do

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Speaker 2: to solve it? No?

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Speaker 3: No, And I was like, I don't know when hw

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Speaker 3: Bush President, I remember you all going on after, you know,

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Speaker 3: work like this, and they're like, because Republicans don't intervene in,

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Speaker 3: they hunt me, and that's what you guys do, so

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Speaker 3: we're gonna be a hard time about it.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, alright.

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Speaker 3: I see, like what you know more, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: just sort of revealing why they're harder on Democrats.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how they prove they're not really on our

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Speaker 3: And I think they all big Democrats get help you

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Speaker 3: a way higher standard than Republicans do. Like why why

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Speaker 3: shouldn't they just be on Republicans to solve that problem too.

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Speaker 3: Why is name but disolling on Democrats solve problem?

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Speaker 1: The Clinton white House. That must have been a complicated job.

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Speaker 2: It was volatile. It was a volatile place. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: That was kind of like my first family in politics.

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Speaker 3: I just learned so much and it was such an

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Speaker 3: exciting place to be and it was a sink of

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Speaker 3: so much possibility. Demographs had not been in charge for

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Speaker 3: so long, and both Bill and Hillary Clinton were such

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Speaker 3: banks that made it fun and exciting and thought anything

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Speaker 3: was possible. I mean, we just had obviously like a

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Speaker 3: roller coaster of experience there too. So I mean talk

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Speaker 3: about like I've never had an experience again, even every

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Speaker 3: you know, everything we stained up like downs and downs

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Speaker 3: of the Clinton white House. It was awesome and every

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Speaker 3: in every sense of network.

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Speaker 1: He was such a talented politician in a way that

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Speaker 1: Democrats had not had talented politicians like he was. He

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Speaker 1: had this charisma that even though I think of Obama

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Speaker 1: as a kind of gifted orator of which we have

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Speaker 1: not had since and may never have, Clinton had a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of charisma that you just don't associate with

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Speaker 1: Democratic politicians.

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Speaker 3: Here, like the person at the person I have met,

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Speaker 3: and I thought all things people were like that had

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Speaker 3: that kind of aura, and I came to realize that

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Speaker 3: it's something that is unique to him. But Democrats had

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Speaker 3: not been you know, he got elected in ninety two,

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Speaker 3: the left time my Democrat had been elected with seventy six,

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Speaker 3: and even then the charter people are only there for

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Speaker 3: four years, so it had really you know, have a

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Speaker 3: sort of an admiration. So it really felt like nobody

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Speaker 3: had been there sixty eight, so no one had any

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Speaker 3: idea what they were doing. But it was a very

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Speaker 3: grilling time and you know, lots of disappointments obviously all around,

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Speaker 3: but like incredible.

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Speaker 1: When you think about Hillary and sort of like in

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Speaker 1: history what happened there. I mean, it strikes me that

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Speaker 1: the fundamental reason that she lost, besides Jim Comey, is

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Speaker 1: that Democrats felt they had it in the bag. And

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Speaker 1: like we saw that in twenty twenty two, Like when

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Speaker 1: Democrats feel they have it in the bag, they do

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Speaker 1: not happen in the back.

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Speaker 3: I went into that campaign thinking I was a great

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Speaker 3: choice for communicating this darker because I've been through I've

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Speaker 3: been White House communications darker, I've been through sooo of

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Speaker 3: any things. I knew the Clayton as well, and I

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Speaker 3: was ill prepared, and that I had never worked for

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Speaker 3: a woman, and no one had ever worked for a

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Speaker 3: woman on that scale. And it's not that everyone in sexist,

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Speaker 3: but just the unconscious gender bias that just blew us

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Speaker 3: away at every turn. You know, there's just something about

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Speaker 3: her I don't like that no one could ever define,

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Speaker 3: or it's just something about her I don't trust, even

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Speaker 3: though when you go through the litany of things I

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Speaker 3: have questions about, from you know, Whitewater to emails, letter's

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Speaker 3: like nothing unprecedented or nothing that someone else hasn't done.

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Speaker 2: Or nothing that people didn't really explain away. There's all that.

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Speaker 3: But I think the fundamental problem was it wasn't that

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Speaker 3: Democrats were over confident.

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Speaker 2: We were very you know, like we were really scared

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Speaker 2: and worried.

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Speaker 3: It was that no one thought it was possible for

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Speaker 3: him to win, and that kept a lot of people,

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Speaker 3: I think at home when it was just sort of

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Speaker 3: the you know, I could see just all along in

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Speaker 3: the years I've worked for politics, things becoming just pulling,

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Speaker 3: more broken, and people more centical, less people voting, and

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Speaker 3: just kind of the whole game of politics becoming calcified

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Speaker 3: and kind of needed, you know, in some ways needed

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Speaker 3: to be blown up and revitalized. You know, obviously not

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Speaker 3: in the start of way that it's happened, but I

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Speaker 3: do think now it is, you know, getting revitalized at

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Speaker 3: grassroots level and either will win you know, when this

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Speaker 3: big fight or not. But I think we will win

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Speaker 3: this big fight, and I being beyond twenty four, and

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Speaker 3: then we will come out of this with more people voting,

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Speaker 3: more people running for off It's different kinds of people

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Speaker 3: running for up. There's more diverse people running for office,

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Speaker 3: and that part of it feels good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I saw her last night, by the way, and I'm

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Speaker 3: just I don't have to say how brown I am

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Speaker 3: of her, And I just think in history, ellery I mean,

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Speaker 3: in history, she is going to be a just I

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Speaker 3: think she's going to be a very big figure and

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Speaker 3: people appreciate talents that she has, but also what she

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Speaker 3: went through in sixteen and I think that like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: she'll be rightly remembered.

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Speaker 1: Well exactly and also just super interesting. Thank you so much, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Mary and tell us what the podcast is called.

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Speaker 2: It's called How to Win twenty twenty four, How.

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Speaker 1: To Win twenty twenty four, and it's you and Claire

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Speaker 1: mccaskell and filled with a lot of really important insight

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Speaker 1: and very modern history that none of us look back

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Speaker 1: to ever.

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Speaker 3: Because what can I say one thing that will make

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Speaker 3: people feel that you remember, like to hold on too

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Speaker 3: when you're freaked out.

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Speaker 2: It's like, let me here are the things that beat

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Speaker 2: to hold on to.

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Speaker 3: Trump's job is harder, which is he has to get

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Speaker 3: people who have never voted for him to vote for him.

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00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,159
Speaker 2: Biden's padless easier. He's got people. You need to get

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Speaker 2: people who voted for him before to vote for him again.

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00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,719
Speaker 3: Biden's problem it's people don't know enough about him, and

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Speaker 3: he's spending money to solve that problem. And I think

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Speaker 3: you know that will work out. Abortion abortion abortion, man.

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Speaker 3: I thought in twenty two like everyone like I was

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00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: out on the road and people are like, it's not

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Speaker 3: really bringing through.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I just talked to three guys with twenty four year

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Speaker 3: old white guys in Pittsburgh with trumpads who said they

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Speaker 3: thought the Democrats were going to win because of abortion. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: help for me, Like it's breaking through Republicans who don't

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Speaker 3: want to support Trump because them Jan sick. Then Democrats win.

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Speaker 3: Democrats know how to win in the battleground state. It's

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Speaker 3: been a long time since Republicans had think about the

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Speaker 3: battleground state. Think about them in eighteen twenty and twenty two.

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Speaker 3: Democrats the ground game there, like the headlock, faith in that.

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Speaker 3: So those are the four or five things you can

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Speaker 3: hold on to, Okay when you're like wake up at

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Speaker 3: a start in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you too. I hope

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Speaker 1: you'll come back, please come back.

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Speaker 2: I love it, love talking with you.

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Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

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00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

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00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

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00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

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00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 1: and toe bags to grab. Head to fastpolitics dot com.

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00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 1: Jensaki is the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jensaki, former

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00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 1: Biden White House Press secretary and author of SayMore Lessons

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00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: from Work the White House.

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00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 2: In the World. Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Jensaki, Thank you, it's so great to be here. One

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00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 4: of my favorite commentators out there, Molly.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're so nice. I am such a fan of yours.

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00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 1: I always feel like you're a person where people really

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00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 1: like you.

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00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 2: And I also like you. Thank you. I like it.

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Speaker 4: I like you. There are normal people in this normal

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that's the right word, but like

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Speaker 4: good humans in this business.

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Speaker 2: I think you're really smart.

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Speaker 1: And also I was thinking about this because you actually

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Speaker 1: may have been on this podcast when you were still.

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Speaker 2: In the admin. I was I think I've also done

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Speaker 2: this podcast since I left. Yeah, so that.

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Speaker 1: You know the problem is because we do nine thousand

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Speaker 1: interviews a week, Jesse and I are.

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Speaker 2: I was like, just where am I and what am

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00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 2: I doing? It's all good, I'm like, Molly, it was

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Speaker 2: really memorable for me?

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Speaker 3: Was it not all for you?

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Speaker 2: Kidding? And you won my show a ton of times?

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Speaker 4: I mean fun Midnight when I asked stravaganzas together, so may.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you do a really fun streamer. So now

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about say more. So, yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this book. Why did you decide to write

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Speaker 1: this book? What was the sort of thinking behind it?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 4: So, when I was leaving the Biden administration, you know,

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Speaker 4: I'd been working in politics and in government for presidents

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00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 4: and politicians for twenty years at that point, and you

440
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 4: and I both know them this same age. You learn

441
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 4: a lot over time, thinks, you make things you wish

442
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 4: you would have done differently, things you wish you would

443
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 4: have known. And I was sort of thinking through the

444
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 4: prism of my kids are younger than yours, But what

445
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 4: do I want to tell my daughter my son too,

446
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 4: when they're old enough to have the conversation about the

447
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 4: work world, about how to talk to people, about how

448
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 4: to have tough conversations. So I just had all these

449
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 4: stories and I didn't I didn't want to do it

450
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: through the frame of a memoir. I joke that I'm

451
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 4: too young for that, but so I'm not kind of

452
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 4: like then at this point, this person said this in

453
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 4: this meeting and it was so seedy, and you just

454
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 4: didn't know about it until now.

455
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: Like not my personality.

456
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: The people work in the Biden admin tend not to

457
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: have books like that.

458
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 4: No, it's true, or Obama really, but I really wanted

459
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 4: to write a book that was about lessons and things

460
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 4: I wish I would have known when I was starting

461
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 4: my career.

462
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 2: And so that's what this is. And since I've never

463
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 2: written a book before.

464
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 4: The challenge was the structure, right, like how it's a

465
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 4: way that's like not chronological, but people can follow it.

466
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 4: And it took me some time to really figure that

467
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 4: out in a lot of smart people giving me advice

468
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 4: on how to do that.

469
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: But that's that's the kind of book I wanted to write. Yeah,

470
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: it's really writing a book.

471
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: I just say, I've written a bunch of books and

472
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,160
Speaker 1: it's always a fucking nightmare.

473
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: Like you are literally like how do I do this?

474
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: And also now for you know, I can write you

475
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 1: two thousand words on almost anything, but now do that

476
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: you know twenty times?

477
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 2: Is not you say?

478
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, I am a total book nerd.

479
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 4: Like my dream would be just like sit in a

480
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 4: hammock or a comfortable chair and like read all day

481
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 4: with copy. That's what I'm gonna be doing when I'm ninety.

482
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 4: People underestimate how hard it is to write a book.

483
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 4: It is hard, and I could talk about probably any

484
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 4: issue under the sun until I'm blowing the faith.

485
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 2: I have no shyness about that.

486
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 4: But really articulating and I love to write, but articulating

487
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 4: and making it cohesive and clear, I have so much

488
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 4: respect for authors.

489
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: And I always have, but now even more so. Oh yeah,

490
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know.

491
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: I just think that it's tough, and I also think

492
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: the loneliness of it is really just crushing sometimes.

493
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and just kind of thinking, am I making

494
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 4: this clear? Is this a story that's accessible? And I

495
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 4: want I hope people when they read the book, take

496
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 4: away and feel like things are applicable to them.

497
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 2: I mean, whether they're in politics or not.

498
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think any maga people are buying

499
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 4: my book, maybe, but even for people love politics. There's

500
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 4: lots of stories about politicians and there people people know,

501
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 4: but a lot of things in there are more broadly

502
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 4: applicable than that.

503
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: And that's what I hope people's takeaway is when they

504
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: read it. It's opunny because we're both forty five.

505
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: I think it's a weird age because you consider yourself

506
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: to be young ish. Yeah, but you know you're not

507
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: young because there are people who are twenty years younger

508
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: who are adults walking around and as hard as a woman.

509
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: You know, I had this feminist mother, so she spent

510
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: all her time talking about like how hard it was

511
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: to be I don't want to say we're middle aged

512
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: because we still have a little runway.

513
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: But very hip Molly. First of all, about aside.

514
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: I hate to say something positive here, but it does

515
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: seem to me like society is a little more interested

516
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: in us than they were twenty years ago.

517
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: I think that's true.

518
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: I also think and this is just like as like

519
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 4: self benefiting our mutual age. Here, I am a much

520
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 4: more comfortable in my own skin. I don't give a

521
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 4: fuck about a lot of things. That means I can

522
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 4: focus on the things that do matter. And that obviously

523
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 4: applies to obvious things like kids and my husband, but

524
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 4: it also applies to like friendships and.

525
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 2: Who you surround yourself with. I mean, like you, I'm

526
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: like not, I hope.

527
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 4: I'm certain there's many people who hate me out there

528
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 4: so much trying to underestimate that, but like, I try

529
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 4: to have like civil relationships with everybody, right, But it's

530
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 4: more about being selective about how you live your life.

531
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: Now.

532
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 2: I've actually found and you mentioned people who are in

533
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 2: their twenties.

534
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 4: So one of the things I've found, like at forty five,

535
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 4: is like I seek out people who are different than

536
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 4: me to be friends with. I find that to be

537
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 4: most interesting, right, It's like I'm not I'm like, I

538
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 4: like it when people are like they have different points

539
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: of view, they have different life experience, maybe they're different age,

540
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 4: and that to me is life giving in a way

541
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 4: that is different from when I was like twenty two

542
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: and you're just like looking for people to.

543
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,239
Speaker 2: All be like like you. Yeah, you surround yourself with

544
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: You're not in the admin anymore.

545
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: But that job is a tough job and you were

546
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: wildly popular in it.

547
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: Why thank you? Yeah?

548
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: Sorry, but I mean it's a tough question because but

549
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: it's something I think a lot about because as a

550
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: feminist and also as a writer, I often wonder why,

551
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: like you have something about you and in that job

552
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: you were quite beloved, and that is not an easy job,

553
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: and most people who have that job are not beloved.

554
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 4: Thank you for that, I would say, I know how

555
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 4: I approached the job, and in a weird way. I mean,

556
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 4: being in that job during the height of COVID was

557
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: incredibly challenging in a thout ways. There was a weird

558
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 4: benefit of it in that, like my life was so

559
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 4: small in the sense that like I was focused on

560
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 4: being as prepared as humanly possible every day right, reading everything,

561
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 4: consuming everything, and then I would go home and see

562
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: my kids and my husband. I like barely left the

563
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 4: White House when I was there. And I remember that

564
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 4: summer in twenty twenty one where I like, I think

565
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: I was at a baseball game and people recognized who

566
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 4: I was and I was like, are they looking at me?

567
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 4: Or like, what's happening me?

568
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 3: I didn't.

569
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: I just like kind of lived in what my job

570
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: was and I hugely benefited.

571
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: And this is like I talked about this in the book,

572
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 4: but like a lesson you probably have these two. Mollie

573
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 4: is like I was the runner up for that job twice, right,

574
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 4: and set it obviously either tie.

575
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: I think I knew this, yeah, And you know the.

576
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 4: First time I was like relieved because I was like, christ,

577
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 4: I don't know how to do that job. And Jay

578
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 4: Carney became the press secretary and that was the right

579
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: choice and he was amazing at the job in all things.

580
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: The second time, I really really wanted the job and

581
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 4: I knew I could do the job. And John Journies,

582
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: who's a friend and amazing and crush that job and

583
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 4: was so good at it, got the job and it

584
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 4: was like.

585
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: You know, crushing in the moment.

586
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 4: But what I've realized is that like I was as

587
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 4: the most prepared the third time around, right because I

588
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 4: was a little bit older, a little bit more sure

589
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: of myself. I had already been the spokesperson at the

590
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: State Department, so all of these nerdy things about Russia

591
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 4: and Ukraine, it's just.

592
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: Like I'd lived that.

593
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: So I feel, in a weird way lucky that it

594
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: like didn't work out till the third time.

595
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, I'm a big fan of rejection.

596
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: Like, one of the seminal moments of my career was

597
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: I wrote this enormous historical novel and a fancy agent

598
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: said this is going to make your career and then

599
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: it did not.

600
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: Sell, which and like what?

601
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: And then I went to an even less good agent

602
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: and I was like, if I write something, will you

603
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: and she was like she didn't quite say no.

604
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: But it was basically no.

605
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: And I was like oh, And you know, I was

606
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: like twenty four or something, and I was like, oh,

607
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: this is oh, this part of my career is clearly over.

608
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: And thank god it was, because you know, that's not fun.

609
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 4: It's so well. I mean, first of all, you've written

610
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: a lot of amazing things since then.

611
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: So it's like, but I had to start over again,

612
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: and it was amazing for me.

613
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: It's the best thing that ever happened to me.

614
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 4: It can be so good and like life clarifying. And

615
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: I think sometimes the toughest moments can be that right

616
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 4: where you feel like rejected or beaten down or and

617
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 4: she you know, it's also a realization. And I write

618
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 4: about this in the book too, of like, well, I

619
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 4: didn't get the job the second time. I was like,

620
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: oh my god, all of these people rejected me in

621
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 4: your work right house, right, it felt so just like embarrassed.

622
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 4: And then I had to go on this trip just

623
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: because I was still doing my job at the State

624
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 4: Department right with president and the Secretary of State. And

625
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 4: I said to my mother, who's a therapist and I

626
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: write about her a lot in the book, is like,

627
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 4: oh my god, how can I go on this trip?

628
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: I want to die? Like all these people have been

629
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: so embarrassed. Yeah, And my mother.

630
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 4: Was like, it takes two to make it awkward, which

631
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 4: is so true, right, It's like you just have to

632
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: go and hold your head high. And she didn't exactly

633
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: say this, but all I learned from that is like,

634
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: these people aren't worried about me, they're not rejecting me.

635
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: They got a lot of things on their plates. They

636
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: picked somebody else from the job, who, by the way,

637
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: was great at it.

638
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: So it's it's also good to experience rejection because it

639
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 4: brings you down to planet Earth yourself too.

640
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: Oh, such a good point. And I really do feel

641
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: like that myself. And it is like, you know, they're

642
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: not doing it to you, They're just doing it.

643
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just happening sometimes. You know.

644
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 4: My mother used to always say when I was growing up,

645
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 4: she grew up in Queens, so she always tells me

646
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 4: she just like brings us all down to Earth. Is

647
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: like life is unfair, life is unequal, and life is

648
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 4: what you make it.

649
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: Which is a pretty simple thing but very true. Well,

650
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: and it is.

651
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: And it's also you know, this idea that it's personalizing rejection.

652
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: And one of the great things that I've experienced in

653
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: my career is, you know, I've done a ton, ton

654
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: ton of freelance writing, and you know, I've had the

655
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: experience where they're like where you convince an editor to

656
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: run a piece and then they get the piece and

657
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: the you they're like we're sorry, or even they just

658
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: ghost you. And then I've had the experience where you know,

659
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: they seem so excited about you and then they get

660
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: the piece and they're like mah, yeah right, so but

661
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: it's so good because what it did was it really

662
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: did make it so I understood that really huge quantities

663
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: of rejection are just the.

664
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: Biz and that I need to just keep going totally, totally, totally, and.

665
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: If I had taken every rejection as proof. And by

666
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: the way, like the other thing which I think is

667
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: such a like incredible moment that I have understood at

668
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: forty five is that as I do things more, I

669
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: get better at them.

670
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: Oh for sure, this is you know, it's so interesting

671
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: and I'm sure you live this too. It is like

672
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: the other one of the things I talked about a

673
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 4: lot in my book is about feedback. And now it

674
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 4: took me a long time, I mean not the turning

675
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: forty was like some marketing point, although sort of maybe yeah,

676
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 4: to really seek aggressively seek feedback from people, in part

677
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 4: because I think when I was growing up in politics

678
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: I mean by growing up, I mean in my twenties

679
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: and early thirties, and I had a lot of jobs

680
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 4: where I was seen as young for the job, right,

681
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 4: And so you don't want to almost expose yourself as

682
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: somebody who recognizes they're not perfect that the thing they're doing.

683
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: It's like I can't feedback from people because then I'll

684
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 4: expose myself.

685
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: Right.

686
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: What I've learned is that feedback is what makes you

687
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 4: better and once you get over and this is what

688
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 4: rejection teaches you.

689
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: Once you get over this.

690
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: Notion that like we all can always be improving, we're

691
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 4: all works in progress, it's super helpful, you know. And

692
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 4: if you can create a form for feedback, I mean

693
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 4: I go through ebbs and flows of this. But since

694
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 4: you know my whole show team, it's like I go

695
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: through periods of like harassing them for feedback, right, like

696
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: I wish I would have done it better. Yeah, you know,

697
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: And it's like every show you think that, and then

698
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 4: once you're free of like, oh and it's okay if

699
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 4: people like criticize me.

700
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: It's very freeing and it's also so helpful.

701
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: I mean, Ali Mettali and I were texting because I

702
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: watch my hits, which which is like so masochistic, But

703
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: you don't do it because you want to feel bad

704
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: about yourself.

705
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: You do it because you want to see what works

706
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: and what doesn't. People have to watch their hits. You

707
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: have to. It's painful, it's so harsh.

708
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: But anyway, Yes, I love feedback, and I think it's

709
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: really helpful and relevant and also important for the experience

710
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: of getting better at things.

711
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: I agree completely one hundred percent. Talk to me.

712
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: About like one of the things that when you talk

713
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: to Democrats, they have a lot of complaints about how

714
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: Democrats message. Right here, we have this administration has done climate,

715
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: has done a lot of legislation which is kind of

716
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: like FDR level stuff right bringing chips and you know,

717
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: just federal money for medicaid, I mean, stuff that is amazing.

718
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: I don't agree that Democrats message badly as much as

719
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: like it's a war against fake news and news avoidance

720
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: and people who are But I'm just curious what you

721
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: think and also like answer this question for me, because

722
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: this is the thing I've been obsessed with. Country of

723
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty million people more probably like only

724
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: a couple million read the newspaper.

725
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: Well, yes, and I love a good printed newspaper, and like.

726
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: Oh school, In this way, it's like when I'm on

727
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: a long flight, not with my kids. I love to

728
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: have one with me. Right.

729
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 4: The circulation of these newspapers, if people saw the numbers

730
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 4: would shock them.

731
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: They are tiny, even cable news.

732
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: Would you and I both passionately love It's not a

733
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: huge group, but.

734
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: Much bigger than newspapers. Yeah, this right, It's true. There's

735
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: a couple of things at play in this moment.

736
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: One of them is the biggest political story in a

737
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 4: presidential election year is the presidential election, right, And one

738
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 4: of the candidates is sitting in a courthouse because in

739
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 4: only one of his criminal trials. People can criticize coverage

740
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: of that, too much coverage.

741
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: All of that. It's a debate to be had.

742
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 4: But it's also a historic moment now that is clouding

743
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 4: out the sun of any Biden storyline because it's a

744
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 4: historic moment for the bad right. And that's a challenge

745
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 4: if you're sitting in the White House. This is not

746
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 4: a normal time where it's like Mitt Romney and Barack

747
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 4: Obama getting equal time to debate their social security plans.

748
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: That the world we're living in, right, So that's a reality. Now.

749
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: What I think is also true is that what the

750
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 4: campaign is doing, and I don't see all of this

751
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 4: is trying to meet people where they are right by

752
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 4: doing a lot of digital organizing, by doing a lot

753
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 4: of paid media.

754
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: What the impact of that will be, we won't know

755
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: till November, but that is how you break.

756
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 4: Through the clouds in some ways. What I also think

757
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 4: though is true, which is a warranted criticism. I think

758
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 4: it's a little overtrqued. Still, I have actually somebody sent

759
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 4: me a mug that was NACP not a comms problem.

760
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 4: Say this all the time. It's like people would be

761
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 4: like when I was in the Obama administration, people say

762
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 4: that about like Syria.

763
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, it's it's not like it's like a

764
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: brutal civil war, right.

765
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 4: But it's a brutal civil war. It is a not

766
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 4: comms problem, and that does happen. But what I also

767
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 4: think democrats not every there are certainly exceptions to this

768
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: could be better at it's speaking in a way that

769
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 4: is accessible English. I actually read a whole chapter in

770
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 4: my book about this because it's like democrats.

771
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: One of the reasons I love democrats. They're like intellectual nerds.

772
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. You and I are nerds too.

773
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 2: We are very much it's all.

774
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 4: Relative, right, like cooler than maybe the average nerd, but

775
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 4: democratic nerd, I don't know, maybe not convinced.

776
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: I have a C Span sweatshirt. I would have one

777
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: if they would get when I wear it. But like

778
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: it's really good. I mean, but it's so good. I

779
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: love PBS anyway.

780
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 4: But sometimes Democrats speak in a way that is so

781
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 4: intellectually elite.

782
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: It's not. And I'm not saying dumb it down.

783
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 4: I don't think the American public is stupid, but like

784
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 4: speak in a way that like there's an entry point

785
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 4: for people, right, I mean, like, and this is something

786
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: actually that I think is a superpower of Joe Biden.

787
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 4: I don't think he's like going to go down in

788
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 4: history as like the number one orator of presidents, but

789
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 4: I do think he speaks in a way that is

790
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: accessible and that's important. And sometimes the people are like

791
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 4: out there, like well the squad and the Paris climate agreements.

792
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: Like people are like, what are you talking about? I'm

793
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: living my leg here.

794
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 4: And that's an important lesson I think to learn that

795
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 4: Democrats could improve upon.

796
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that's the right answer. And again

797
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: there are some things that are just real things in

798
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: the world, like the carnage in Syria, and they are

799
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: not Tom's problems.

800
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: They are like actual humanitarian crisises. So I thought that

801
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: was a really important point. Thank you, Jensaki. Oh my gosh, Molly,

802
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 2: I'm such a super fan of yours.

803
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 4: I always look to see what you write, so thank you.

804
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: Jason Stanley is a philosopher and professor at Yale, as

805
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: well as the.

806
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: Author of How Fascism Works.

807
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, my buddy, Jason Stanley.

808
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Molly. Great to be in conversation with you.

809
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you, fancy Yale professor. Before

810
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: we started we were just.

811
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: Talking about You were like, what are we going to

812
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: talk about?

813
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: I was like, the death of American democracy, the hopefully

814
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: not death of American democracy. But you were saying. Putin

815
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: was selling your new book discuss.

816
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 5: So Putin just said, wars are won by teachers, And

817
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 5: my new book is called Erasing History, how fascists rewrite

818
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 5: the past to control the future. And it's about when

819
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 5: you're trying to establish authoritarianism, you really want to attack

820
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 5: the schools, you really want to delegitimate democratic education. You

821
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 5: want to delegitimate any narrative that speaks against the glory

822
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 5: of your country. You want to erase all the history

823
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 5: of the past crimes of your country. So people think

824
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 5: your country is innocent. They think it's innocent and great,

825
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 5: and they think that anything you do that might be

826
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 5: anti democratic is justified by this glorious innocent history.

827
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, you specialize in reconstruction. That was what you

828
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: wrote your thesis on, right, or those sort of larger

829
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: post Civil War America.

830
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 2: Right. No, I specialize in philosophy language, right, But you.

831
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: Have this other profound interest in reconstruction. And one of

832
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: your thesises, which I think is a really strong and

833
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: important one, is that we've had many moments in American

834
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: history where the country has had the opportunity to become

835
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: a multi racial democracy and has been unwilling or unable

836
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: to do that, and one of those moments was reconstruction.

837
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: Oh.

838
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's an existential moment to be thinking of. I

839
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 5: specialize in two things, philosophy of language and epistemology, and

840
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 5: it's my work in epistemology that leads me to think

841
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 5: about how these barriers to knowledge affect politics. So pistemology

842
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 5: is the study of knowledge, and I'm interested in the

843
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 5: study of barriers to knowledge and how they're strategically used. So,

844
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 5: of course, most Black Americans vote for Democrats nowadays. So

845
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 5: if you are strategically trying to delegitimize votes for the

846
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 5: Democratic Party, you're going to try to delegitimize black votes,

847
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 5: especially black votes in cities and majority Democratic cities.

848
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: And we're seeing that history return.

849
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 5: When Trump talked about errupt cities, he was t like

850
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 5: Atlanta and Philadelphia. He's talking about cities with large black populations.

851
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 5: Detroit often majority black populations. And that was precisely the

852
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 5: reason that was given to end reconstruction. That was precisely

853
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 5: the reason given to say we need the Ku Klux

854
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 5: Klan to shut down voters in the South because black

855
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 5: politicians are corrupt.

856
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: Do you think that is a fear of black power.

857
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: It's a fear of black power and equality, Black equality, yees.

858
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 5: Overall, we see this. We see this for example in India,

859
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 5: any movements for equality are treated as attempts to take

860
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 5: over the country. I mean, we don't need to go

861
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 5: to India. We can just ask any woman in the

862
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 5: world what people say, how is men's reaction to your

863
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 5: claim that you'd eat greater equality.

864
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: Oh, the feminists are taking over, right, that's a really

865
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 2: good point.

866
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 5: It's that impulse in humans that patriarchy is the first ideology.

867
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 5: Any attempt for women's equality seems like an attempt to

868
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 5: take over. But just take that and put it through

869
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 5: every dominant group. You find the sort of cultural representation

870
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 5: of Black Americans and political representation that gets treated as

871
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 5: a threat for white Americans.

872
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: Right, So I think that's really interesting. So now sort

873
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: of thread the needle to sort of where we are.

874
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: Right now, we have.

875
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 5: A fascist social and political movement that has many components.

876
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 5: A fascist social and political movement can only win if

877
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 5: it's supported by many different groups that don't view themselves

878
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 5: as fascist. They just view democracy as, you know, the

879
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 5: worst alternative given their goals. So suppose, now, you know,

880
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 5: to take a very salient example, you're a pro Netta

881
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 5: Yahoo Zionist. You might think, Okay, I don't really care

882
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 5: about American democracy. What I really care about is making

883
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 5: sure that no matter what Netan Yahoo does, he gets unqualified,

884
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 5: unconditioned support whatever happens with American democracy. Then you know

885
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 5: you're going to strategically vote or take you know, abortions.

886
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 5: Suppose all you care about is making abortion illegal atocracy.

887
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 5: Those okay, but more importantly, we have to make sure

888
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 5: there are no abortions in the United States. You might

889
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 5: not consider yourself a fascist, but you're going to vote

890
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 5: for the fascist party. So what we have in the

891
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 5: United States is we have, as it were, a broad

892
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 5: tent political party, the Republicans, that appeal to multiple factions.

893
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 5: They appeal to white supremacists, they appeal to anti abortion advocates,

894
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 5: they appeal to male supremacists, they appeal to ethnonationalists of

895
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 5: various kinds christian nu and then there's the overarching appeal

896
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 5: of a macho leader whom the rules don't apply to.

897
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 5: What we have now is we have a kind of

898
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 5: classic mid century fascist formation with an actual cult of

899
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 5: the leader, which unifies various longstanding elements and threads in

900
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 5: the American right. And that, of course is a long

901
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 5: standing danger. I mean European fascist parties only one because

902
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 5: social conservatives started voting for them, so observatives that well,

903
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 5: better these guys than the social democrats.

904
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: Right right, So how does this sort of steep ban

905
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: in flood the zone with shit crue factor into those.

906
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: They're undermining any kind of way of.

907
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 5: Tracking reality, right, So you just you and of course

908
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 5: you know anytime when you have these interest groups, you know,

909
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 5: different interests groups representing different goals, then it's easier to

910
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 5: do because each of those interest groups is going to

911
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 5: be like, I don't really care about truth as long

912
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 5: as I get my goal fulfill. So now you're getting

913
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 5: Most recently, we have these protests on campus that are

914
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 5: being represented as violent riots. That benefits one group that

915
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 5: just wants to attack universities. The same went out your

916
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 5: critical race theory, gender ideology. They don't care about anything

917
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 5: other than attacking and delegitimizing universities.

918
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: As JD. Van said, the professors are the enemy.

919
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 5: So this kind of all out attack on any institution

920
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 5: that you want to delegitimate is part of the flooding

921
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 5: the zone with shit strategy. And since all you care

922
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 5: about is smearing institutions that you don't like, then the

923
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 5: truth doesn't matter. Think of the campaign against quote unquote

924
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 5: welfare called anything you didn't like welfare and people turned

925
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 5: against them. So this is kind of the strategy to

926
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 5: get to direct people's attitudes to create negative attitudes among

927
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 5: people towards institutions you want to delegitimize. You connect the

928
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 5: those institutions, say the Democratic Party with Hamas, it's a

929
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 5: terrorist organization. You say, oh, the Democrats really are Hamas,

930
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 5: And it's like there's no factuality there.

931
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: But it works for the narrative that you want. It

932
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: works in creating us, this very extreme us them narrative.

933
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: Right, if Trump loses again, right, this he'll have lost

934
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, twenty twenty twenty two. If he loses again,

935
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: does this start to go away?

936
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 2: Well?

937
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 5: Trump had a unique ability that I think he's losing

938
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 5: that enact with his supporters. He had what Max Weber

939
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 5: called charismatic authority. Seeing his latest speeches, he seems to

940
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 5: be losing that. Actually, he seems to be losing the

941
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 5: kind of thing, but in a very different way that

942
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 5: Barack Obama had.

943
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: Bizarro Obama Bizarro right exactly? Tisaroa.

944
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 5: I mean, so you need you know, as we saw

945
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 5: from Ron DeSantis, a politician with zero charisma who's just

946
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 5: a mean guy, can't really do that. Trump is an

947
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 5: unusual figure. It's hard to predict whether you could have

948
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 5: such a character person come and sort of get Americans.

949
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 5: I mean I found I used to find Trump funny, right.

950
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: No, of course, I mean that's the secret of Trump.

951
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: I mean that's like Mussolini, right, Mussolini came to power

952
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: because people sort of thought he was funny.

953
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Mussolini had a kind of complete clownish funniness.

954
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 5: Trumps sort of varies between accurate and you know, the

955
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 5: system is broken and this kind of outlawsh sensibility that

956
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 5: Mussolini has as well, So to get people unified behind

957
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 5: that and this really macho patriarchal strutting thing, which is,

958
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 5: you know, patriarchy always appeals. You need that kind of

959
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 5: leader for a cult of the leader. However, this coalition

960
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 5: that we're seeing between the old Right, it unifies traditional

961
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 5: religious conservatives across many religions, Jewish people, Christians. Not seeing

962
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 5: an increasing pro Trump Muslim vote.

963
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: That's insane. Like the guy had a Muslim ban, Yeah

964
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: you saw.

965
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 5: I believe Michael Flynn visited a Detroit's majority Detroit city

966
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 5: recently or last year or two by invitation. Because you

967
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 5: have conservative sides of religions, patriarchy can appeal to them,

968
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 5: antioy sentiment can appeal to them. So, and we forget

969
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 5: that Muslims were Republican voting block before nine to eleven.

970
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 5: So you get that aspect that we call the old right,

971
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 5: you know, the social conservatives. And then you get the

972
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 5: billionaire class who just wants they don't want regulations, Democracy

973
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 5: limits them, so they want to get away with democracy.

974
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 5: They don't want to be regulated, So the billionaire is

975
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 5: supporting this. Then you get Christian nationalists, the sort of

976
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 5: hard edge of the social conservatives, who are like, this

977
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 5: is a Christian country, immigrants are going to ruin us.

978
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: And then you.

979
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 5: Get, you know, people with just these very specific interests

980
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 5: like both anti Semites I think right.

981
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 2: Right and religious Jews I mean exactly. Yeah, how is

982
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: that a coalition? Oh oh, my colleague el Yahustern has

983
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: talked about that.

984
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 5: I mean, one of the main rabbis in Germany in

985
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 5: nineteen thirty five said Hitler will be our ally in

986
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 5: the war against intermarriage.

987
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: Right.

988
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: Wow, we can't forget that Hitler's enemy was not religious

989
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 5: Jews in the first instance, very clear, his enemy was

990
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 5: Jewish people who looked like everyone else. The idea was

991
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 5: Jews were infiltrating German society and they were infiltrating in

992
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 5: a way that you couldn't tell who was Jewish and

993
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 5: who wasn't. They were marrying Aryan women and polluting their blood,

994
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 5: and they were taking over the press and infecting it

995
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 5: with Marxism and communists. His enemies were leftists Jews. You

996
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 5: had Jewish people religious Jews in Europe thinking Stalin was

997
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 5: the greater threat. Of course, Stalin was a monster.

998
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: Right didn't have the death camps for Jews.

999
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: Also, I would like to point out that in the

1000
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: other episode that is going to air on this episode today,

1001
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: I did, in fact talk about how my grandfather won

1002
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: the Stalin Peace Prize and was late to disavouse Stalin.

1003
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: He was the last recipient of it while Stalin was

1004
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: still alive. So, you know, Stalin was a lot of things,

1005
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: but he was nice to some Jews.

1006
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 5: Well, there's a story that my family tells because when

1007
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 5: my grandparents had to decide whether to flee when the

1008
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 5: Malta of Rode Bribent trop packed when they split Poland,

1009
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 5: my grandparents had to decide whether to go east towards

1010
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 5: USSR or sort of west towards Germany. And my grandfather said,

1011
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 5: Hitler hates the Jews. Stalin hates everyone, bet or not

1012
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 5: to be singled out.

1013
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: It's true.

1014
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: There's no endorsement here of any foreign dictator now deceased.

1015
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 5: Yes, but Dalin killed just as many people as Hitler.

1016
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 5: He hated everyone, and.

1017
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: Grandpa did, in the end admit he was wrong about Stalin,

1018
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: which for Grandpa to admit he was wrong about something

1019
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 1: me and you really knew he was wrong about Stalin.

1020
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: So I do think though, was a really good point.

1021
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: We're six months from this election, and it really is

1022
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: if Trump wins, it's over.

1023
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 2: It's over. Yeah.

1024
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 5: I mean, he explicitly tells you who he admires, and

1025
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 5: those are the people who only have sham elections like

1026
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 5: they just had in Russia. And that's what he wants here.

1027
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 5: He's very explicit, that's what he wants here. You're already

1028
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 5: seeing the sort of group, very now effective group behind him,

1029
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 5: the Heritage Foundation. You're seeing publications like the American Conservative

1030
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 5: endorse Trump for twenty twenty eight talking about how you know,

1031
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 5: the two term rule is just as anti democratic, right.

1032
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 5: So we're already seeing the brain trust, the new brain trust.

1033
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 5: What we the difference now is that there is a

1034
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 5: whole fascist intellectual cadre behind Trump now, the Claremont Institute,

1035
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 5: Heritage Foundation, and they're completely organizing what a new authoritarian

1036
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 5: society will look like in American authoritarian society. Trump is

1037
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 5: not the mastermind there. Trump will allow it through all

1038
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 5: these changes. It's an interest convergence, and then you know

1039
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 5: you're going to have minority rule rule by the far

1040
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 5: right for the rest of America's existence.

1041
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: Right until there's some other thing that is expensive and

1042
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: possibly terrifying. One of the things that Trump wild has

1043
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: started doing very effectively, I think, and effectively.

1044
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 2: Again, we don't know how effective it is until the election.

1045
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: But so Biden made a real point, and I think

1046
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: it was the right point of how democracy is on

1047
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: the line, and so you see Trump as pushing back. No,

1048
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: it's Biden who wants to end American democracy. He just

1049
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: sort of the significance of that.

1050
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 5: Well, that's just a standard. That's what I would do

1051
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 5: if I was advising Trump, and he's advising himself on there.

1052
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 5: He's got great instincts. You deflate any accusation. You know,

1053
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 5: there's an old cliche, every accusation is a confession. That's

1054
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 5: what we're seeing here. Trump very early On fastened on

1055
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 5: this seat very early on said okay, let's make this

1056
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 5: a fight about democracy.

1057
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 2: I can do that because he's very good at reversing things.

1058
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 2: Remember crooked Hillary, who was the one I'm not saying.

1059
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 2: You know, the system wasn't crooked and corrupted. It is.

1060
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 5: We shouldn't have presidents leaving office with one hundred million dollars,

1061
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 5: which we do too often. But you know, Trump is

1062
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 5: clearly the more explicitly a corrupt one of that duo.

1063
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 5: So this is a reversal. This is a pro projection.

1064
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 5: It's meant to confuse people and deflate the charges that

1065
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 5: are aimed at him. He's trying to take these criminal

1066
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 5: charges against him that are instances of the rule of

1067
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 5: law and represent them as really ways Biden is trying

1068
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 5: to undermine him politically.

1069
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: We know that's not true. We know that these are

1070
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 2: criminal charges.

1071
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 5: And of course it's not that surprising that Donald Trump

1072
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 5: faces criminal chartists. We New Yorkers know, right right, It's

1073
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 5: a standard propagandistic technique to project to take the accusations

1074
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 5: made against you and reverse them, and it leaves people confused,

1075
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 5: and so it deflates the power of the accusation.

1076
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: So interesting.

1077
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 5: Jason Stanley, can you please come back, of course anytime.

1078
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 2: I love to be in conversation with you. No moment,

1079
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon, my joining Fast. Some people predicted that this

1080
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: Trump trial would be boring. I think not.

1081
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: Trump is mad about the Stormy Daniels testimony. Different parts

1082
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: of it annoy him, though. I think the thing that

1083
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: got him upset was the recounting of their sexual activity

1084
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,479
Speaker 1: and also other stuff. But either way, Stormy Daniels has

1085
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: made Trump completely crazy and now he is saying that

1086
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: he must have a mistrial.

1087
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: And the judge said to that that they should have

1088
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 2: done more objections during the trial, which is sure to

1089
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: make Trump blow a gasket. Yeah that's good.

1090
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1091
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

1092
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1093
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1094
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Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.