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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow and we're Talking Transports.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transport Podcast. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Lee Clasgow, Senior Freight transportation Logistics Analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts

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Speaker 1: and strategists before diving in little public service announcement. Your

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Speaker 1: support is instrumental to keep bringing great guests onto the

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Speaker 1: podcast like the one we have today. If you haven't already,

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Speaker 1: please do take a moment to follow rate and share

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Speaker 1: the Talking Transport Podcast with your friends, colleagues and family.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate your support. I'm very excited to have Garnett

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Speaker 1: Rupelt CEO of Ardmore Shipping Corp. Which is a market

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Speaker 1: cap around four hundred and seventy five million in trades

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Speaker 1: under the symbol ASC. Prior to his appointment in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four as CEO, he served Ardmore as Chief Commercial Officer.

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Speaker 1: Since joining the company in twenty thirteen, he has spent

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Speaker 1: twenty three years across multiple sectors in the maritime industry

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Speaker 1: and acquired extensive international exposure, having worked in five countries

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Speaker 1: across three continents throughout his career. Before joining Ardmore in

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, mister Rupel was a tanker projects broker with

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Speaker 1: Potent and Partners in New York. Previously, he held various

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Speaker 1: roles up to trade manager for ap Mahler, Maersk and

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Speaker 1: Mayersk broker in the US, Europe and Asia. He holds

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Speaker 1: an Executive NBA from INCIAD and later completed their International

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Speaker 1: Director's program. He also graduated from the Institute of Chartered

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Speaker 1: Shipbrokers in London, Maersk's International Shipping Education and was a

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Speaker 1: credited Shipping Merchant by the Hamburg Chamber of Conference. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast, Garnett.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Lia, I'm very glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Ardmore Shipping, you know, I know it, but

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Speaker 1: it might not be a household name. Could you just

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what what do you guys do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Great, So we're a global owner and operator of

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Speaker 2: product and chemical tankers. So in terms of cargoes, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty much everything that comes out of the refinery, which

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of people would have touch points with.

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Speaker 2: That could be gasoline, diesel, jet fuel. In terms of

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Speaker 2: the commodities we carry, but then also increasingly interesting new

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Speaker 2: emerging cargoes, biofuels, blending components, recycled oils, used cooking oils.

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Speaker 2: You know, a wide range of chemicals as well that

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Speaker 2: could be used for all sorts of industrial and petrochemical purposes.

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Speaker 2: We are globally set up across three key hubs in Europe,

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Speaker 2: here in the US, in Houston, and in Singapore. We

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Speaker 2: are fully integrated shipping company with a trading platform that

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Speaker 2: works in close liaison with the technical and operational parts

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Speaker 2: of the business, always looking to really drive and optimize

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Speaker 2: TSE performance. It's kind of about key metric how much

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Speaker 2: we earn on a per day basis for pro vessel.

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Speaker 1: Just just for those out there, TSE is time charter equivalent. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's how that's how ship ship owners get paid. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: and roughly how big is the fleet?

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Speaker 2: We own and operate twenty six ships, most of them

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Speaker 2: we own, twenty two of them are fully owned. Four

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Speaker 2: of them we we have chartered in from the market

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Speaker 2: from third party owners. We have very close and long

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Speaker 2: standing operating relationships with.

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Speaker 1: And ships aren't cheap. So like, roughly, what's the valuation

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Speaker 1: of the fleet? Do you guys have that?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, if you if you roughly would assume

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Speaker 2: a product anchor a new building would cost you forty

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Speaker 2: five million, and then you know, five year old ships

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Speaker 2: beforeably be you know, it's sort of very steps below that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, ships have been earning incredible cash flows

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Speaker 2: over the past few years with a really emerging landscape

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Speaker 2: of trade flows and that has been reflected and as evaluations.

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Speaker 1: And so and so, who are add More's customers, Like,

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Speaker 1: who are who are the people that you're working.

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Speaker 2: With the main oil majors, blue hip refiners, major oil traders,

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Speaker 2: so really people that you would know from the refining

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Speaker 2: an energy landscape, from the commodity trading landscape would be

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Speaker 2: the core group of our customers. We have a really

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Speaker 2: widespread customer base where you wouldn't really find anybody that

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Speaker 2: would ever have more than ten percent of revenue in

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Speaker 2: our company. So you know, it's really all about increasing

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Speaker 2: trading opportunities for art More. That can shift depending on

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Speaker 2: where we see strength in the market by region, but

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Speaker 2: also by cargo group and customer group.

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Speaker 1: And is most of your business contract or is it

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Speaker 1: spot And if it's for contract, what's the typical duration

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Speaker 1: of a contract with one of your customers.

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Speaker 2: So the majority of the business is really operating in

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Speaker 2: the spot market, and if you want to maximize earnings,

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Speaker 2: that's probably where you find yourself. That said, there could

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Speaker 2: be times when you strategically choose to either charter outships

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Speaker 2: on a fixed contract or charter ships in as well

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Speaker 2: if you see opportunities to you know, employ those ships

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Speaker 2: in a meaningful and profitable way. Those would typically be

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Speaker 2: contracts for up to one yet duration. And then there's

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Speaker 2: also others other structures that are sort of in between

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Speaker 2: hybrid structures. But the predominant way of operating in this

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Speaker 2: market is really through spat trading, which means that every

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Speaker 2: voyage is negotiated and new, which then for us makes

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Speaker 2: it possible to create really interesting combinations. So if you

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Speaker 2: look at the more simple ships, they would maybe carry

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Speaker 2: crude oil from the Middle East to let's say China,

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Speaker 2: and then they go back empty. For us, we can

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Speaker 2: really reduce that empty leg quite meaningfully, where you know,

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Speaker 2: we just we had one example where we managed to

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Speaker 2: keep one ship trading for a full year without any

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Speaker 2: empty legs. Of course, mentorship is empty, it doesn't make

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Speaker 2: any money. So part of the trick is really if

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Speaker 2: you want to let's say, bring diesel into Argentina, you

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Speaker 2: find some soybean oil to go to Asia. With that

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Speaker 2: there you can you know, trade maybe the refined product

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Speaker 2: markets for a while, or you carry some biofuel back

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Speaker 2: to Europe. And how you combine those voyages you can

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Speaker 2: really you can really maximize the earning potential of your assets.

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Speaker 1: And this is just a basic question for I guess

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Speaker 1: the product tanker market. So if you have diesel oil

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Speaker 1: and then then all of a sudden you have soybean oil,

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Speaker 1: do you have to clean out the inside of the

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Speaker 1: tanker or absolutely?

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Speaker 2: OK. Yeah, there's a rigorous cleaning process that involves sort

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Speaker 2: of sequentially, you know, cleaning chemicals, fresh water, and and

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Speaker 2: and a fairly you know, fairly thorough process. And that

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Speaker 2: also means that as you get to the more complex

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Speaker 2: end of the product slate, if you want to cross

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Speaker 2: trade between refined products, chemicals, agricultural goods, you really need

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Speaker 2: to know what you're doing because the magic really happens

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Speaker 2: in that in that cross trade. But also if you

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Speaker 2: if you don't have the organizational capability to do that

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Speaker 2: well and efficiently and safely. There's also a lot of downside.

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Speaker 2: So for us, this really is core to what we

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Speaker 2: would consider our most competitive advantage where you know, we

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Speaker 2: don't just own the ships that have that capability. We've

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Speaker 2: also built through a lot of effort over the years,

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Speaker 2: the the you know, really the organization to know how

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Speaker 2: to do this well and some of those more complex

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Speaker 2: traits are a lot harder to penetrate, and for us,

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Speaker 2: this is how we distinguish ourselves as a business.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and this is another another basic question. So when

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Speaker 1: you're cleaning the product tanker, is it taking out of service?

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Speaker 1: Is it like hours, days, weeks? How long is that process?

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Speaker 2: It's typically a number of days. But the way we

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Speaker 2: would look at that is that the cost and the

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Speaker 2: time and the shifting expenses that you might endure to

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Speaker 2: clean would be put into a very thorough you know,

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Speaker 2: revenue and cost calculation of any business we would look at.

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Speaker 2: But that's why being so integrated between the commercial and

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Speaker 2: operational parts of the company where you can make those

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Speaker 2: estimates to a high degree of accuracy, but then also

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Speaker 2: introduce you know, digital tools to put you in a

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Speaker 2: position to to learn from past voyages, where every voyage

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Speaker 2: is an improvement opportunity and feed that then in this

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Speaker 2: live feedback loop into into this commercial machine as you

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Speaker 2: as you're reevaluating, reevaluating those opportunities in the future. So

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Speaker 2: accuracy and speed of execution is kind of part of

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Speaker 2: the success formula in this business, right.

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Speaker 1: And so at the day of us recording this, you

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Speaker 1: Art Moore has a very busy day. You guys had

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Speaker 1: fourth quarter earnings and you had an analyst day. Can

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Speaker 1: you can you talk about the fourth quarter and then

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Speaker 1: maybe we can talk about you know, what you discussed

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Speaker 1: at the analyst day today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think sort of key key key highlights

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Speaker 2: for us is really the performance we have delivered where

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Speaker 2: you know, for for for the past a few years,

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Speaker 2: really we have delivered on on a lot of different

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Speaker 2: levels for the company where we have generated really strong performance.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the TC figure, you know, is very relevant

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Speaker 2: for us. So our TC for the last year was

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Speaker 2: in excess of thirty thousand dollars a day. We have

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Speaker 2: driven down our break even levels substantially just to rigorous

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Speaker 2: cost management but also delevering the company where our break

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Speaker 2: even now is just above eleven thousand dollars a day, So,

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Speaker 2: you know, very strong cash generation through really multiple market

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Speaker 2: scenarios and as the cycle plays out. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: we've been able to return capital to shareholders through a

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Speaker 2: quarterly dividend, which is a third of earnings, and we've

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Speaker 2: also executed on a share buyback program last quarter where

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Speaker 2: we have also been able to return about a quarter

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Speaker 2: of our market cap to shareholders. And at the same time,

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Speaker 2: we have made some really significant investments into the business,

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Speaker 2: into our fleet, finding ways to increase fuel efficiency, increase

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Speaker 2: cargo versatility, and these are incredible investments that give you

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Speaker 2: returns sometimes in excess of one hundred percent, regardless of

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Speaker 2: what happens in the marketplace. And then we've also modernized

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Speaker 2: the fleet where we sold our oldership last year, bought

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Speaker 2: a very modern ship, and are finding ways to make

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Speaker 2: some really meaningful improvements to our commercial and long term

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Speaker 2: sustainability of our fleet.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so you know you're saying that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you guys are operating around twenty thousand dollars a day

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Speaker 1: over your break even, So I guess where are we

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Speaker 1: in the cycle or rates high in your market, are

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Speaker 1: they kind of mid level? Or where are rates and

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Speaker 1: where should we expect them to go? Given supply demand dynamics.

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Speaker 2: Rates are still very high, certainly compared to historical norms,

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Speaker 2: and I think we are, you know, really encouraged that

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Speaker 2: we will be in a position to generate really attractive

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Speaker 2: cash flows really regardless of the market environment. The market

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Speaker 2: is good. You know, we are starting the quarter, the

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Speaker 2: current quarter as broad guidance around twenty two and a

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Speaker 2: half thousand dollars per day on our m R tankers,

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Speaker 2: which is again given out break even devils, really strong

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Speaker 2: cash generation. There has been a step down from sort

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Speaker 2: of the levels we have seen before the last summer,

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Speaker 2: simply because in the fourth quarter there was this general

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Speaker 2: kind of risk of approach which we've seen well in shipping,

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Speaker 2: but really below that. Of course, you know, every time

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Speaker 2: a cargo is trade at, a ship moves, and if

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Speaker 2: we see less trading activity on oil products and the

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Speaker 2: commodities we carry, there is less movement on ships, and

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Speaker 2: of course that has a has a sort of a

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Speaker 2: dampening effect on freight rates. So still really good levels,

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Speaker 2: but we're probably off the peaks we would have seen

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Speaker 2: in the last spring, just because I think the world

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Speaker 2: was just in a weird place where a lot of

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Speaker 2: people were wondering what does all of this mean for US?

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Speaker 2: You know, trade wars, tariffs, you know, sanctions, and I

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Speaker 2: think now we're in a place where a lot of

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Speaker 2: our market participants are moving from that point of uncertainty

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Speaker 2: to taking positions arboutraging some of those new cargo flows,

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Speaker 2: taking fixed term positions on vessels. And you know, refining

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Speaker 2: margins have also jumped up here at the start of

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Speaker 2: the year. And of course the more the more money

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Speaker 2: is to be made refining a barrel of oil production

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Speaker 2: goes up. And every time, of course oil products are refined,

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Speaker 2: they also need to move somehow somewhere and that very

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Speaker 2: often involve ships.

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Speaker 1: Right. What has the I guess, the war between Russia

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine, what has that dislocation done for rate that

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming that's been a net positive for rates obviously

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Speaker 1: a negative for everything else.

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Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, I mean, certainly, you know, not the

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Speaker 2: context we would have liked to see freight move up,

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Speaker 2: but dislocation was significant where Europe has been relying before

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Speaker 2: the invasion of Ukraine heavily on bringing in oil products

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Speaker 2: and diesel from Russia, including you know, Baltic Russia. That

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Speaker 2: is a very short trait from the Baltic into Northern

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Speaker 2: Europe once those product flows were sanctioned on borgoed. Rather,

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Speaker 2: the product inflows into Europe had to come from places

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Speaker 2: that were substantially further away. So rather than from kind

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Speaker 2: of across European trade, those would have come from the

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Speaker 2: US Gulf or from places as far away as the

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Speaker 2: Middle East or even Asia. And that's of course a

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Speaker 2: really large multiple in terms of voyage distance that ties

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Speaker 2: up ships and removes supply effectively. There's always this double

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Speaker 2: double effect, of course, where not only does Europe have

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Speaker 2: to source its barrels from places further afield, at the

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Speaker 2: same time Russia was still producing diesel and those would

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Speaker 2: find new markets in South America, in West Africa, some

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Speaker 2: of them even as far as the Middle East. So

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Speaker 2: an emergence of a two way trade that was significantly

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Speaker 2: longer than what we've seen before, right, And of course

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Speaker 2: there is this interesting parallel if I may just add,

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Speaker 2: where if we see, if we see talks of tariffs

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Speaker 2: between you know, Canada and the US, where a third

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Speaker 2: of a third of the product imports into this part

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Speaker 2: of the US the US Atlantic Coast is actually coming

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Speaker 2: from Canada, and that's a relatively short trade and if

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Speaker 2: now you will see those product imports increasingly sourced from

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Speaker 2: Europe or from West Africa, the voyage length is sixfold,

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Speaker 2: so again very significant in terms of the tunnel impact.

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Speaker 2: And equally, those Canadian barrels would likely also find new

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Speaker 2: markets that by definition would be further afield.

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Speaker 1: So these geopolitical risks are a good thing for the

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Speaker 1: tanker market ironically, Yes, gotcha, And I guess you know,

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Speaker 1: barring those like where with that just like make rates

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Speaker 1: to drop like significantly, Like where are we I guess

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Speaker 1: pre Russia Ukraine war in terms of raids?

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Speaker 2: Right? So I mean these are some of the questions

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Speaker 2: that people are asking themselves. Now you take those factors away,

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Speaker 2: does this mean the markets are just going to reverse?

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Speaker 2: And you know, two things that are important to point

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Speaker 2: out the evolving demand and supply picture. What don't mean

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Speaker 2: by that? On the demand side, oil consumption is continuing

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Speaker 2: to increase. We're going to see another one point one

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Speaker 2: million barrels a day, you know, forecast in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: I think it's clear that oil products and oil will

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Speaker 2: continue to play a major role still to meet the

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Speaker 2: global demands for energy and mobility. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: you see an emerging trend of biofuels, and these are

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Speaker 2: interesting new liquid products that come into the mix. But

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Speaker 2: then also every time trades get reshuffled, that creates this

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Speaker 2: uncertainty that creates increased trading activity, creates bottlenecks, basically creates

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Speaker 2: inefficiencies in the system, and that tends to be really

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Speaker 2: positive for freight rates as well. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: on the supply side of things, the old demo demographic

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Speaker 2: of the global tanker fleet, so ships that are older

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Speaker 2: than twenty years become harder to trade very often near

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Speaker 2: that age where they will be scrapped or recycled or demolished,

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Speaker 2: is actually three and a half times the audobook. So

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Speaker 2: if you look at the supply side of things, long

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Speaker 2: term fundamentals are also really attractive. So I think short

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Speaker 2: term there's enough of sort of wildcard factors all positive

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Speaker 2: around terraffs. A lot of ships have been sanctioned also

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Speaker 2: more recently, while the long term fundamentals we believe are

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Speaker 2: still very compelling.

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Speaker 1: Right, and I guess once if rates do go down,

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Speaker 1: a lot of those older ships will just get scrapped

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't make any economic sense for them to

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Speaker 1: be to be moving around.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And a lot of those older ships

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Speaker 2: now have actually found their way into sort of gray

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Speaker 2: area trades that would find a way to circumvent you know, sanctions,

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly something we wouldn't engage in. But there

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Speaker 2: has been emergence of what is called the shadow fleet,

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Speaker 2: sort of fringe players, and in a way they're being

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Speaker 2: kind of kept alive quote unquote through those marginal trades.

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Speaker 2: Once you take that away, once ships get to a

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Speaker 2: certain age, the capital investment in just maintaining those ships

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Speaker 2: steel work and just keeping them tradeable is significant. So

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Speaker 2: that should really remove a lot of that older supply

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Speaker 2: from the fleet.

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Speaker 1: So have you been keeping your fleet away from the

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Speaker 1: Suez Canal, you know, given the risks there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean we have not transited the Red Sea

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Speaker 2: since you know, the end of twenty twenty three. For us,

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Speaker 2: the safety of our seafarers is always going to be

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Speaker 2: a fir ust priority and anything that happens from here

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Speaker 2: would have that as the overarching objective. We're in close

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Speaker 2: contact with industry associations, with security advisors, with other industry

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Speaker 2: peers as well. But for us to resume transit to

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Speaker 2: the Red Sea. We would really have to see a credible,

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Speaker 2: sustained normalization of conditions. And look, I mean not to

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Speaker 2: unpack the situation in the Middle East, but it's safe

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Speaker 2: to say that the situation in all of you remains

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Speaker 2: infinitely complex. And these things don't tend to move in

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Speaker 2: a straight line. So we're holding back. And all the

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Speaker 2: other higher t owners that we have been interacting with

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Speaker 2: are also still very decisively stepping away from the Red Sea.

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Speaker 1: And that's been that Also, that whole dislocation has been

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Speaker 1: a positive for rates because of the dislocation that is

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Speaker 1: created and forcing people around the Cape of Good Hope in.

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Speaker 2: Africa has definitely played a part. Mars actually more hasn't

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Speaker 2: been that huge of an impact. I mean, only four

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Speaker 2: percent of them Mars really would be on would be

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Speaker 2: on that trade. But you know, overall, of course ships

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Speaker 2: had to go along a distance, so that would have

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Speaker 2: had its impact. Interesting thing is, even if we saw

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Speaker 2: a reversal again, you're looking back at sort of that

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Speaker 2: you know, trade lane shifting, which creates a lot of

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Speaker 2: movement in product markets, and if we were to go

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Speaker 2: the shorter route again, you know, actually you would expect

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Speaker 2: to see more cargo flows, especially of those premium runs

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Speaker 2: east to west. So you know, the the the red

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Speaker 2: Sea situation has been a part of some of those

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Speaker 2: market drivers, but certainly hasn't been the only one. And

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't I wouldn't look at it, you know, with

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Speaker 2: singular view.

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Speaker 1: Right in earlier you talked to a kind of big

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Speaker 1: picture about supply demand dynamics and and how you know

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Speaker 1: there's a large percentage of ships that could be scrapped.

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Speaker 1: Is there any difference between sub segments within the product

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Speaker 1: anchor market? Like are some more? Are some even better

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Speaker 1: than other in terms of the supplied demanded dynamics that

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Speaker 1: are favorable at rates on.

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Speaker 2: A relative basis. DMRs are still you know, probably looking

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Speaker 2: looking more favorable on a relative basis. Also the chemical

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Speaker 2: tankers where that you know that that ratio between old

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Speaker 2: ships and the autobook is compelling, as I said three

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Speaker 2: and a half three and a half times.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell our listeners what is an MR ah?

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Speaker 2: Yes, probably should have set that at the start. It

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Speaker 2: stands for medium range tankers roughly fifty thousand tons you know,

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Speaker 2: dead weight or basically how much cogo they can carry.

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Speaker 2: They would really be what we call the workhourses of

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Speaker 2: the tanker trade. It's the largest sector, it's by far

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Speaker 2: the most liquid sector with the one thousand, six hundred

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Speaker 2: vessels globally, and that's partially why we so attracted to it,

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Speaker 2: because there's always lots of trading activity. But aside from

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Speaker 2: just liquidity on the asset side, you can also trade

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Speaker 2: these ships in the most versatile way, as I explained earlier,

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Speaker 2: exploring not just petroleum based trades but also a lot

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Speaker 2: of emerging in alternative cargo flows that just give us

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Speaker 2: that optionality when we trade our ships.

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Speaker 1: So what we're kind of the long term or I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess longer term picture that you were painting today

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Speaker 1: at your investor day for the audience. So you know,

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Speaker 1: where are you seeing demand going for because obviously it's

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Speaker 1: going to be hard to predict because all the geopolitical

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Speaker 1: stuff that we talked about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great point. I mean the long term demand picture,

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Speaker 2: annual growth in oil products and demand for oil seems

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Speaker 2: to be still a very clear trend that will carry

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Speaker 2: through for a while. So we are fairly positive about

377
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Speaker 2: about the demand picture. At the same time, you know,

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Speaker 2: aside from the aging fleet, yard capacity is really fully utilized.

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Speaker 2: At this point. There are a lot of ships on

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Speaker 2: order outside of the tanker sector, container ships, gas carriers, bulkers.

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Speaker 2: So if you wanted to order a ship from a

382
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Speaker 2: first class shipyard in Japan, that'd say you're looking at

383
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Speaker 2: a delivery in twenty twenty nine. You might get some

384
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Speaker 2: earlier slots in China, you know, possibly in Korea, but

385
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Speaker 2: you're really looking several years out if you wanted to

386
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Speaker 2: not add supply to the fleet. So even if we

387
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Speaker 2: saw new ordering you know, ramp up from here, which

388
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: we don't at the moment anyway, this would be spread

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Speaker 2: out over a you know course of really the rest

390
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Speaker 2: of the decade. So we remain very constructive about it's

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Speaker 2: an old fleet new you know, shipyard capacity is really

392
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Speaker 2: restrained and the demand picture just remains positive. And you know, again,

393
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Speaker 2: I think we see this every day. Where as much

394
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Speaker 2: as of course there is a desire to increasingly move

395
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Speaker 2: away from faster based transportation fuels, they still very much

396
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Speaker 2: remain part of the mix. And I'm through all of

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Speaker 2: our listeners when they figel up their car or get

398
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: on a plane experience that.

399
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, and when you guys are ordering a new ship,

400
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: do you are you agnostic to where it's built or like,

401
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,239
Speaker 1: are the or the Japanese ships much better than the

402
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: ones that they're making in Chinese? In China right now

403
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Speaker 1: in terms of the product tanker market.

404
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: At the moment, the ships that we own have all

405
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Speaker 2: been built at Japanese and Korean shipyards. Chinese shipyards have

406
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: certainly developed in terms of quality. So I think you

407
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: you certainly shouldn't look past China. And and we're not

408
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: in any We're not in any conversation on new buildings.

409
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Speaker 2: You know, we look at all sources of deal floid

410
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: all times. But you know, I think I think they're

411
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: all builders of quality tonnage with the slight difference in

412
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Speaker 2: maybe the the finer touch points and pricing as well.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, switching gears a little bit. You know,

414
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Speaker 1: emissions is has become an important thing for a lot

415
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Speaker 1: of fleets, has been important to you know, the the

416
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Speaker 1: industry with IMO targets, which some might view it is aggressive.

417
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: How are you guy, what is your plans for reducing

418
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Speaker 1: your emissions? Like what technologies are you investing in today

419
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: for the reductions that are expected I guess twenty thirty

420
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Speaker 1: and twenty fifty.

421
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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great question. For us, we're probably taking a

422
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: very pragmatic approach to this, where for us, being just

423
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Speaker 2: a very efficient company that is focusing on fuel efficiency

424
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Speaker 2: has always been part of our DNA since the company

425
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: was found in a twenty ten because you know, in

426
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Speaker 2: a way, if you can pollute less and also save

427
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: that fuel cost, fuel is our largest variable. Cost is

428
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: a no brainer. And so one thing is of course,

429
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Speaker 2: you know, buying ordering ships that are fuel efficient, but

430
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Speaker 2: even with existing tonnage, you can do a lot to

431
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Speaker 2: make them more efficient on the margin, one by just

432
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Speaker 2: upgrading the ships physically from the way the main engine

433
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Speaker 2: is is run. Also, a lot of the you know,

434
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: auxiliar rear generators offer a lot of improvement opportunities. But

435
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: also increasingly how you integrate artificial intelligence in how you

436
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: execute your voyages. Because every time you decide on the

437
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: speed of a ship, you do one or two things.

438
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: Either you go fast capture stronger market, or you go

439
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: slower and there where you save fuel. So you're basically

440
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: making an economic output decision at infinite points throughout the voyage.

441
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: And by using you know, AI assisted optimization tools, you

442
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: can really make sure that marginal cost and model revenue

443
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: are balanced at all times throughout the voyage and thereby

444
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: profit is maximized. So one of many examples, but we

445
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: feel that, you know, before you you have to get

446
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: into you know, placing larger bets on new alternative fuels

447
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: that of course all come at a larger capital outlay.

448
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot you can do with your existing fleet

449
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: and making it just more fuel efficient in the end

450
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 2: now and then just again integrating that with the with

451
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: the rest of your organization in terms of how you

452
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: trade around that.

453
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Right, And if you're ordering a new fleet or a

454
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: new ship, are you ordering like a dual fuel and

455
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: what are those dual fuels that you're kind of focused on.

456
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: Well, we're engaging with with some of our customers, you know,

457
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: blue chip customers on some longer term projects where they

458
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: have some needs to to embrace some of those modern

459
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 2: fuels on either the propulsion side or carrying those cargoes,

460
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: and that for us would be something we'd be very

461
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: happy to execute on today. Otherwise, you know, if you

462
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: were to order ship today, you can basically have have

463
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: these ships duel fuel ready where you basically spend a

464
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: little bit more to get that optionality. As right now,

465
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: the the the landscape of alternative fuels is still you know, evolving.

466
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: Are you optimistic that the industry is going to be

467
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: able to be zero admissions by you know when the

468
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: IMO is looking for that to happen.

469
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: It's an ambitious target and we probably still fall short

470
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: of really meaningful ways to either incentivize owners or you know,

471
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: charterers to to really go from a level of ambition

472
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: and commitment to this becoming a commercial and financial reality.

473
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: So time will tell, but you know, twenty thirty is

474
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: kind of upon us. In twenty fifty when you think

475
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: about the lifespan of ships is also not that far away.

476
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So what is Ardmore's capital allocation strategy? What's

477
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: what's what's the focus when you're when you're dealing with that.

478
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great questions. So for key elements the way

479
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 2: we look at capital allocation, one is really around you know,

480
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: reinvesting in the business could just be maintaining the fleet,

481
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: making it more fuel efficient, making sure it's it's it's

482
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: increasing in terms of versatility, but also you know, at

483
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: the right time, well priced a creative growth then it's

484
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: you know, making sure that our debt levels are at

485
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: healthy levels, and you know we have very aggressively repaid

486
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: debt over the past few years. And then of course

487
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: it's returning capital to our shareholders where we have a

488
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: well established dividend policy third of earnings. And then you know,

489
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: as is appropriate, if we see most valiant buying our

490
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: own stock or we've seen significant dislocation, you know, we

491
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 2: can also engage on share buybacks.

492
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: Do you guys have a debt leverage target or are

493
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: you at the target.

494
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: Pretty much at zero at this point or close to zero?

495
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: And the way we probably should look at leverage in

496
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: this industry is almost through the cycle, where you know,

497
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: there are times when you're producing significant cash flows where

498
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: it's really time to de lever to then you know,

499
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: first of all, be resilient when there's kind of gyrations

500
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: in the market, but more importantly, those would be the

501
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: opportune time to then expand and modernize, and then of

502
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: course you want to be in a position to level

503
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: up again, so you almost want to look at your

504
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: ideal dead levels on a through cycle basis, which then

505
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: might be I don't know, thirty forty percent without without

506
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: kind of necessarily committing to kind of specific numbers. But

507
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: if it's in a good market as close to zero

508
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: and when you really want to expand during a weaker

509
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: part of the market to like fifty to sixty percent,

510
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: it's maybe somewhere between those two.

511
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: And you know, like, so looking at twenty twenty five,

512
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: our earnings expectations for you guys, you know they're down there.

513
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: They're expected down considerably from twenty twenty four, which was

514
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: a good year. I guess peak earnings for you guys

515
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two is that right?

516
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: We had? Interestingly enough, we had throughout all those years,

517
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: we've had strong and week quarters, and I think that's

518
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: that's quickly forgotten. Where don't you don't find a year

519
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: that just runs through at a certain level. You actually

520
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: see a lot of volatility month and month in quarter

521
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: on quarter, which you know, even as we were looking

522
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: at twenty twenty two, for instance, and you really saw

523
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: rates straight up, there were actually week months and week

524
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: quarters in that time as well.

525
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: So what is I guess the outlook for rates so

526
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: far in the first quarter twenty twenty five versus last year.

527
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 2: We think we've kind of seen things turn around at

528
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: this point. I mean we are guiding at the moment

529
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: roughly twenty two and a half thousand dollars per day

530
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: for the MRS in the current quarter. And this is

531
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: still at a time when when you know, there's some

532
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: seasonal drivers that are holding freight back. A big driver

533
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: of strength and freight rates is US golf refinery activity.

534
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: And we've had this big cold snap in Texas not

535
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: too long ago, and that we reduced activity a lot.

536
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 2: But then also we're now in this seasonal time when

537
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: refineries just go through their maintenance cycle. So we down

538
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: to roughly eighty percent of Houston refinery utilization and typically

539
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: in a normal in normal times, this would be somewhere

540
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: between nine three to ninety five percent. So we feel that,

541
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, some of the re emergence of East to

542
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: west flows tariffs should really set us up for a

543
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: for you know, stronger rates than we've seen so far.

544
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: Okay, and I'm sorry, So the twenty thousand is that

545
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: up or down from last year? What first quarter of

546
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four.

547
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 3: Uh, that's uh, that's down down Okay, yeah, okay, So

548
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: I mean it's really you know, your your revenues and

549
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 3: earnings are like one hundred percent tied to whatever the

550
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: spot market's doing, because you guys are absolutely yeah.

551
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So roughly for every for every ten thousand dollars

552
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: a day in TSE, our annual EPs moves by roughly

553
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: two point three dollars. So it's it's very significant. But

554
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: also there of course, as we're making these marginal adjustments

555
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: to efficiency, uh, and in vestler performance, you can actually

556
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: lock in some some really strong relative gains regardless of

557
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: what happens in the broader marketplaces.

558
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: And so you know, running a large product tanker fleet,

559
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: what keeps you up at.

560
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: Night first and foremost always, uh, you know, safety of

561
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: our ships, right, I mean this is you know, these

562
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: are real physical trades ships, you know, going through bad

563
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: weather sometimes and in ports that are not quite to

564
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: the to the standard we used here, used to here,

565
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: So I think that's always really of us priority. Then

566
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: really making sure that we stay off the forefront of

567
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: what's possible, you know, continuing to look for ways to innovate, optimize,

568
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: really keeping a track of what's what's happening in the

569
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: market and how can we find new ways to to

570
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: to invest in the fleet, grow the fleet, create long

571
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: term shareholder value and and just being very focused on that.

572
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, on the innovation side you mentioned earlier like

573
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: AI using AI. Guess from your from a voyage standpoint,

574
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: is that stuff that you guys buy off the shelf

575
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: or is this stuff that you develop and.

576
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: Have Every company should make it a say on the

577
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: AI strategy if they want to be developers of AI,

578
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: investors in AI, or just really good adopters of AI. Right,

579
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: And for us, we made a decision that you know,

580
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: it's the third because the former two options don't really

581
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: align without aligned, without cost strategy or with our expertise.

582
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: So for us, it's been, it's been, it's been always

583
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: just being very much on the forefront looking through a

584
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: lot of you know, the full full realm of improvement opportunities.

585
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: For twenty efficiency upgrades we embraced and rolled out across

586
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: the fleet. We typically would review two hundred, so quite picky.

587
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: Not everything is as effective as people make you believe.

588
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot of snake all out there. But we've

589
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: had really good, good experience with the with the solutions

590
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: we choose to adopt. And that goes from again actually

591
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: physical upgrades to our ships. How can we how can

592
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: we manage voyage execution, but also how can we make

593
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: make decisions on cargo flows? And the markets do just

594
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: tracking tracking ship movements and cargo flows in a very

595
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: intuitive way, which gives all ship traders the tools to

596
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: make the right decisions the fast.

597
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: So when I introduced you, you know, I mentioned the

598
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: twenty three years of experience in the industry. What attracted

599
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: you to the shipping industry? Were you kind of like

600
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: were you born into it? Did you fall into it? Like,

601
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: how did you, you know, start your career in shipping?

602
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: Really the wide horizon that wasn't born into it, no

603
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 2: family ties. I'm the first in my family to venture

604
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: into the maritime space. There was just something about the

605
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: international exposure and the business that really attracted me. And

606
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, my first years at MARSK were very formative

607
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: in that sense where the management program was extremely international

608
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: and at the chance to live in different parts of

609
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: the world. And then you know, specifically energy shipping is

610
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: fascinating because everything that really happens in the world, you're

611
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: right at the center of it. I think we've seen

612
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: certainly recent years how even the mainstream media has probably

613
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: picked up more on coverage of shipping trends, whether it

614
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: was supply chain bottlenecks during COVID or you know, shifting

615
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 2: shifting trades on the back of Russia, Ukraine, the Red Sea.

616
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're right at the center of what happens

617
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 2: in the world, which has drawn me into it.

618
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: And so you lived all over the world, you have

619
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: one place that is your favorite.

620
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: New York will always have a very very special place

621
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 2: in my heart, you know. And whenever I'm back here,

622
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: part of me has never left. So it's it's great

623
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 2: to be back here. That's great.

624
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: And then you know, I guess you know what is

625
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: your favorite thing about your job?

626
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: As CEO of Ardmore, we are a company that really

627
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: means business. Yeah, when we talk about corporate governance and

628
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: our values and making a difference, it's not just window dressing.

629
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: It's not just stuff for an annual report. We live

630
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: it every day. Meaningful interaction with the board on some

631
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: of those big questions that of course affect you know,

632
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: shareholder value, but also the business and all our stakeholders

633
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: or staff or employees. Uh and and of course our

634
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: business partners too. So that's what I feel very passionate about.

635
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: Art More. I feel very passionate about the way we

636
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: really live innovation and don't just put it into a

637
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: corner and say that's our innovation department. Really permorates every

638
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 2: part of the organization. So there's something very entrepreneurial about

639
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: art More and and I think that's what what ultimately

640
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 2: drives me and motivates me. And it's really the people

641
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: around me, where a lot of people within Artmore have

642
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: been able to progress their careers within the company, where

643
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: people have always had a chance to kind of step

644
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: in and step up and and and this this from

645
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: you know, the CEO transition, which of course was an

646
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: internal succession, but all the layers in the company around

647
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 2: that too have always given the people a chance to

648
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: grow and develop. And also that I think makes it

649
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: quite unique and a great place to work for.

650
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: Okay, great, And before I let you go, I like

651
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: to ask this of all my guests, do you have

652
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: a favorite book about the industry or about leadership that's

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00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: kind of close to your heart.

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00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: I always enjoy reading books about maybe not so much

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00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: the industry, but really what lies underneath moving tankers, which

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00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: is you know, commodity trading. So books like the King

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00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: of oil, which covers the emergence of the spot market

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00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: for oil. Basically, Mark rich Font of glen Core developed

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00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: that more recently The World for Sale. If you want

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00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: to understand how tankers move, why they move, when they move,

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00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: need to understand why and when and how oil moves

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00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: first and foremost, so I enjoy reading those books. Leadership

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00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: for Me The Culture Map by Aaron Mayer for the

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00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: shipping industry, very relevant companion on how you can really

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00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 2: lead across cultures and leverage understanding those different dimensions of

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00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: how we all show up in the market, in the

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00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: workplace and how that is affected by how we were

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00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: raised by all parents in school, and how you can

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00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: redeceive the opportunity and arguably also you know, beauty and

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00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: working in such a such an international place by shipping great.

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00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: Well, garn, I really appreciate your time. Learned a lot

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00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: here about ad more and about your career. So thanks

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00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today.

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00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: Thank you. I really appreciate it, and.

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00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for tuning in. If you

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00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: liked the episode, please subscribe and laver review. We've lined

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00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: up a number of great guests for the podcast, so

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00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: please check back to hear conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators,

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00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you

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00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: have an idea for a future episode, please hit me

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00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: up on the Bloomberg terminal or on x at Logistics late.

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Speaker 1: Thanks everyone, take care by now