WEBVTT - SYMHC Classics: Libertalia

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<v Speaker 1>Happy Saturday. Since we had a pirate episode this week,

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<v Speaker 1>we are returning to that theme for today's Saturday Classic.

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<v Speaker 1>It is about the pirate utopia of Libertalia, which may

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<v Speaker 1>or may not have been a real place. This originally

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<v Speaker 1>came out on July eleventh, twenty eighteen. Enjoy Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello,

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<v Speaker 1>and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frye and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Tracy V. Wilson. And today I thought we were due

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<v Speaker 1>for a little bit of fun summer pirate time. This

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<v Speaker 1>one is kind of a fun story. It's a little kooky.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a subject that goes by two names depending

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<v Speaker 1>on the source you're looking at. Sometimes you will hear

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<v Speaker 1>it as Libertatia with a tia ending. Some of it

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<v Speaker 1>is Libertalia with an la ending. That's what those things

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<v Speaker 1>that even in different printings of the same book, you

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<v Speaker 1>will see it both ways, depending on the printer's decision.

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<v Speaker 1>I presume. The other part that's fun is that this

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<v Speaker 1>may or may not have been a real thing. Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is an interesting thing to examine. The primary

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<v Speaker 1>account that we have of Libertalia is from a general

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<v Speaker 1>History of the robberies and Murders of the most Notorious Pirates.

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<v Speaker 1>This is in volume two, so if you go looking

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<v Speaker 1>online and you only get volume one, you will not

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<v Speaker 1>find this and be like what you said, this was

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<v Speaker 1>in here volume two. That one published in seventeen twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>The writing lists its author as Captain Charles Johnson, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to circle back to more specifics about its

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<v Speaker 1>authorship at the end. We've talked about it on the

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<v Speaker 1>show before as well, but we will revisit it. And

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that a bunch of pirates wanted to create

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<v Speaker 1>a utopia of equality, which is what this story is,

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<v Speaker 1>might seem a little bit far fetched, but it does

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<v Speaker 1>sound a lot like other utopian experiments we've talked about

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<v Speaker 1>just said earlier on the timeline, and with a high

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<v Speaker 1>seas theme. And there are also some instances we know

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<v Speaker 1>about of pirates kind of trying to do that, which

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<v Speaker 1>we'll talk about at the end. And it's also in

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<v Speaker 1>a place in the world that there were definitely a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of pirates, Yes, we talk about that at the

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<v Speaker 1>end as well. And Libertalia, which in truth, as we said,

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<v Speaker 1>might be completely fictional, would have been settled sometime probably

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<v Speaker 1>in the late seventeenth century, and that's just based kind

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<v Speaker 1>of on backdating from when the book was published, because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have much in terms of specific dates beyond that.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're going to go through this whole story of

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<v Speaker 1>this unique pirate settlement as laid out in the General

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<v Speaker 1>History by Johnson, and then we will talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>other author who usually gets credit for writing a story

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<v Speaker 1>and whether that history has roots in reality. The story

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<v Speaker 1>of Libertalia begins with a man named Mysol who was

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<v Speaker 1>a Frenchman born in Provence to a good family. The

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<v Speaker 1>true name of the family is purposefully left out of

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<v Speaker 1>the general histy street of pirates to safeguard their reputation.

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<v Speaker 1>While Meisson's father did pretty well, there were so many

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<v Speaker 1>children in the family that he knew he needed to

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<v Speaker 1>go make his own way in the world rather than

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<v Speaker 1>depending on any inheritance, which is a popular pirate origin story. Yes, indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>this one kind of as we go through you'll find

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<v Speaker 1>checks kind of all the boxes of popular pirate stories,

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<v Speaker 1>but it also has the fun one of we're not pirates.

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<v Speaker 1>So Missoul was educated in humanity, logic, and mathematics and

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<v Speaker 1>then at age fifteen, was sent to Angier in western

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<v Speaker 1>France for a year of military training, and per Charles

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<v Speaker 1>Johnson's account, which he claims is sourced from Meisson's own

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<v Speaker 1>writing about his life, Misson's father had a life as

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<v Speaker 1>a musketeer in mind for his son, but Misson had

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<v Speaker 1>decided on a life at sea. So Meissan's father set

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<v Speaker 1>him up with letters of recommendation all of the items

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<v Speaker 1>he might need, and then arranged for a volunteer stent

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<v Speaker 1>aboard the Victoire, which was a ship commanded by a

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<v Speaker 1>relative named Monsieur forbat The young Misson aboard the Victoire

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<v Speaker 1>departed the port at Marseille and ventured into the Mediterranean.

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<v Speaker 1>Misson learned about navigation and life at sea, and he

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<v Speaker 1>spent his early time on the Victoire learning all that

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<v Speaker 1>he could from the more experienced men aboard. According to

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<v Speaker 1>the story, he just was constantly asking them questions uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And he loved being a sailor, and he was well

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<v Speaker 1>regarded because of his really well mannered demeanor. But when

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<v Speaker 1>the Victoires set into port in Naples, Nisson's life course changed.

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<v Speaker 1>He got permission from the captain to go ashore and

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<v Speaker 1>to travel inland. To Rome, but what he found there

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<v Speaker 1>was really disheartening. He was really chagrined at all the

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<v Speaker 1>licentiousness and the indulgence of the papal court. He really

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<v Speaker 1>lost his faith, deciding that quote all religion was no

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<v Speaker 1>more than a curb upon the minds of the weaker,

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<v Speaker 1>which the wiser sort yielded to in appearance only in Rome, Misson,

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<v Speaker 1>who was pretty devout at that point, went to confession,

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<v Speaker 1>and in doing so he meant a quote. Lewde priest

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<v Speaker 1>by the name of Carraccioli, who was Dominican, and while

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<v Speaker 1>making the acquaintance of a man of the church who

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<v Speaker 1>was not exactly a pillar of piety, solidified Misson's perceptions

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<v Speaker 1>that the Church was corrupt. He and Karaccioli became friends,

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<v Speaker 1>and they actually would remain companions for the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>their lives. Carraccioli told Misson that a life in the

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<v Speaker 1>church was a pretty good gig. It came with friends

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<v Speaker 1>and opportunities, and quote the ecclesiastical state was governed with

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<v Speaker 1>the same policy as were secular principalities and kingdoms, that

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<v Speaker 1>what was beneficial, not what was meritorious and virtuous, would

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<v Speaker 1>be alone regarded. He likened the papacy to a monarchy

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<v Speaker 1>to explain the situation to Misson, and he explained his

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<v Speaker 1>own contempt at the whole structure, saying, quote, for my part,

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<v Speaker 1>I am quite tired of the farce and will lay

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<v Speaker 1>hold on the first opportunity to throw oh off this

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<v Speaker 1>masquerading habit. The priest went on to say that he

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<v Speaker 1>was worried that by the time he stayed in the

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<v Speaker 1>church long enough to make a tidy living so that

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<v Speaker 1>he could leave, that he would be too old to

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy any of it. So Missoul proposed that the priest

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<v Speaker 1>join him on the seas. So the two men traveled

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<v Speaker 1>together to Livorno, Italy to meet back up with the Victoire,

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<v Speaker 1>and with Missol's recommendation, Carraccioli was welcomed onto the crew.

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<v Speaker 1>Almost immediately, Caraccioli got a taste of the dangers of

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<v Speaker 1>sailing life. The Victoire was engaged in a long and

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<v Speaker 1>brutal battle with two other ships. Caraccioli was shot in

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<v Speaker 1>the leg in this conflict, and it was a massive struggle,

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<v Speaker 1>but ultimately the Victoir won. There wasn't much of value

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<v Speaker 1>to take from the best at opponents, but an estimated

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen Christian slaves were freed in the process. After the battle,

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<v Speaker 1>the battle damage to Victoire headed back in some Marseilles

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<v Speaker 1>for repair, and Masson used the downtime to visit his family,

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<v Speaker 1>bringing Caraccioli along with him. He also brought with him

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<v Speaker 1>word from the captain that Misson had conducted himself admirably

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<v Speaker 1>at sea. He had a nice little letter to show

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<v Speaker 1>his parents that he was doing a good job. After

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<v Speaker 1>a month of rest, the captain of the Victoire sent

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<v Speaker 1>word to Misson and his friend that they were to

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<v Speaker 1>set sail again, leaving from Marseilles to go to Rochelle

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<v Speaker 1>to pick up merchantmen and saale for the West Indies.

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<v Speaker 1>And as the crew waited at Rochelle for the next

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<v Speaker 1>phase of the journey, the merchant ships that they were

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<v Speaker 1>to join with weren't ready to set sail. Misson and

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<v Speaker 1>Caraccioli decided to take work on another vessel in the

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<v Speaker 1>meantime because he did not like to be idle at all.

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<v Speaker 1>They got into some adventures along the way, but the

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<v Speaker 1>more important part of their escapades, as related in the

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<v Speaker 1>General History, was their ongoing discussion of religion and God.

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<v Speaker 1>Through these discussions, Misson was adopting a deist philosophy and

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<v Speaker 1>continuing to just turn away from all organized religion. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a chunk of texts that several paragraph long in which

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<v Speaker 1>the writer seems to be sorting out his own thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on the matter of God and the soul. Craciole continued

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<v Speaker 1>to speak on religion both with Misson and with the

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<v Speaker 1>other sailors on their journeys, and as such he became

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<v Speaker 1>something of a religious leader simultaneously. Because both Carraccioli and

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<v Speaker 1>Misson had become a highly skilled sailors, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the men they traveled with were really looking up to

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<v Speaker 1>both of them. Yeah, there's a sort of wonderful irony

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<v Speaker 1>that Carracciole wants to leave the church because he thinks

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<v Speaker 1>organized religion is not for him either, and then he

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<v Speaker 1>sort of becomes a religious leader after that. That's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a fascinating twist. So on a cruise to Martinique,

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<v Speaker 1>the Victoire was engaged in battle by an english man

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<v Speaker 1>of war with forty guns called the Winchelsea. The early

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<v Speaker 1>battle took a serious toll on the leadership of the Victoire.

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<v Speaker 1>The captain, second captain, and three lieutenants were all killed

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<v Speaker 1>very early on. So short on officers Misson and Caraccioli,

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<v Speaker 1>who had always been quick to step up when needed,

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<v Speaker 1>began giving orders and leading the remaining Victoire crew. They

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<v Speaker 1>were victorious, but this was actually by accident, because for

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<v Speaker 1>reasons unknown, the wind Chelsea exploded, killing all of its

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<v Speaker 1>crew save one lieutenant, who died two days later. Aboard

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<v Speaker 1>the Victoire, and after the conflict with the wind Chelsea,

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<v Speaker 1>Caraccioli saluted Misson as captain and told him that he

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<v Speaker 1>must make a choice to return to port and be

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<v Speaker 1>at the mercy of other men's decisions, or to take

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<v Speaker 1>the Victoire as his own and make his fortune. Misson

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<v Speaker 1>opted for freedom, but stated to the assembled crew that

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<v Speaker 1>quote a great number of them had resolved with him

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<v Speaker 1>upon a life of liberty, and had done him the

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<v Speaker 1>honor to create him chief. That he designed to force

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<v Speaker 1>no man, and be guilty of that injustice he blamed

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<v Speaker 1>in others. Therefore, if any were reverse to the following

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<v Speaker 1>his fortune, which he promised should be the same to

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<v Speaker 1>all he desired, they would declare them, and he would

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<v Speaker 1>set them ashore, whence they might return with conveniency. They

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<v Speaker 1>could basically opt out of this sort of life of piracy.

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<v Speaker 1>But his offer was instead met with shouts of vive

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<v Speaker 1>le capitan nisson, which is also the origin story of

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<v Speaker 1>most pirate crews. Yes, I'm gonna be cool, you guys.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't have to come with me, but if you

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<v Speaker 1>want to, let's go. Let's all go. Yeah, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about Misson's life and leadership, but first we

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<v Speaker 1>will pause for a quick sponsor break. So Missul immediately

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<v Speaker 1>set the tone of his leadership by giving the crew

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<v Speaker 1>the power to select their own officers. Then their next

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<v Speaker 1>destination was agreed upon as a group. Misol suggested the

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<v Speaker 1>coast of Spain. All of the men were in accord

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<v Speaker 1>with that course. Then they had to decide on their color,

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<v Speaker 1>and at this point Carraccioli was quick to clarify that

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<v Speaker 1>they were in fact not pirates quote, but men who

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<v Speaker 1>were resolved to assert that liberty which God and Nature

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<v Speaker 1>gave them, and own no subjection to any farther than

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<v Speaker 1>was for the common good of all. So he advised

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<v Speaker 1>that they fly under a white flag quote, with liberty

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<v Speaker 1>painted on the fly. Next, the belongings of all the

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<v Speaker 1>officers who were slain in the fight with the wind

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<v Speaker 1>Chelsea were brought on the deck and the money on

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<v Speaker 1>board was put into a chest which was declared to

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<v Speaker 1>belong equally to all the men. The lieutenants were asked

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<v Speaker 1>to make an assessment of the men on board and

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<v Speaker 1>determine who had immediate need of clothes that they could

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<v Speaker 1>be prioritized to receive the clothes of the deceased men.

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<v Speaker 1>Misson followed this up with a speech that the men

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<v Speaker 1>should all show one another brotherly love and cast aside

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<v Speaker 1>any grudges they had, and that they should see one

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<v Speaker 1>another as equals. Quote for when equity was trodden underfoot, misery, confusion,

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<v Speaker 1>and mutual distrust naturally followed. It sounds so idyllic. Everybody

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<v Speaker 1>loved one another. We're all in this together. Uh. But

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<v Speaker 1>it was not all hippie love from Misson, as he

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<v Speaker 1>also declared war on any ports that would deny them

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<v Speaker 1>entry and any who would not give them what they needed.

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<v Speaker 1>He was basically saying, so, we know we're not pirates,

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<v Speaker 1>but other people might not get that, and if they

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<v Speaker 1>treat us like we're pirates, we're gonna have to get piratical. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>He did also admonish his men to always treat prisoners

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<v Speaker 1>humanly and generously for the sakes of their immortal souls.

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<v Speaker 1>The Victoire and its crew then did some plundering in

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<v Speaker 1>the most polite way possible. They took sugar and run

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<v Speaker 1>from a ship without violence, and then let it go.

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<v Speaker 1>They made fake runs at privateers with no intent to

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<v Speaker 1>actually engage them, betting that the ship would try to

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<v Speaker 1>take them, which meant that they could then defend themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>At one point, Missam told a privateer captain that he

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.200
<v Speaker 1>would plunder nothing from the captured ship, but that they

0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 1>would strip it of guns, and the privateers had to

0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.959
<v Speaker 1>promise not to engage in racy for six months. They

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.240
<v Speaker 1>made their way around the globe for a while, and

0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.679
<v Speaker 1>eventually Misson had two ships under his command. He had

0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.760
<v Speaker 1>taken a ship whose crew was so charmed that they

0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 1>all opted to join with him, and at this point

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Caraccioli was named captain of the second ship, which was

0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.240
<v Speaker 1>named the Biju, and the two vessels made their way

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.480
<v Speaker 1>around the Cape of Good Hope and then on to Madagascar.

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Mis allied himself to the royal family of an island

0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.960
<v Speaker 1>near Madagascar in a conflict with a neighboring kingdom. He

0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.239
<v Speaker 1>also married into the royal family, and so did Caraccioli.

0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Men of the crew married non royal women of the

0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 1>island of Johanna, which is modern day Anjuan, and Misson

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.040
<v Speaker 1>and his men helped to defend people off the island

0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 1>against invaders. Yeah, there was actually an invasion by the

0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:51.000
<v Speaker 1>queen's brother that they defended against. Uh and they were

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.080
<v Speaker 1>always the good guys in this story. So not long

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 1>after those events, Misson made his way to nearby northern

0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 1>Madagascar and he scoped out an area of land that

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 1>appealed to him, and then he went ashore and he

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 1>found good soil there and available fresh water, and he

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.840
<v Speaker 1>decided that he wanted to settle a town there in

0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 1>this place that he envisioned would have docks, and it

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.079
<v Speaker 1>would be an asylum, a place for aging men of

0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 1>the sea to live out the remainder of their lives

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.760
<v Speaker 1>in peace, and he would call it Libertelia. Messaul waited

0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.280
<v Speaker 1>for his entire crew to agree to his plans before

0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.200
<v Speaker 1>he actually began the project. All of the men agreed

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 1>to the plan, and they immediately set to work on

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 1>his designs, and within ten days they had cleared one

0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty large trees from the area. He requested

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.040
<v Speaker 1>that the royal family of Johanna loan him three hundred

0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 1>men to help with the project and return for the

0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.720
<v Speaker 1>assistance that had been provided in their defense. And after

0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 1>a great deal of debate among the leaders of that island,

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 1>some of whom feared that enabling the settlement could lead

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.600
<v Speaker 1>to their own enslavement down the road, the three hundred

0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.120
<v Speaker 1>men were loaned for labor. Yeah, a lot of that

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.800
<v Speaker 1>discussion said around, Wait, we're gonna help them build a

0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>place from which they could actually come after us. Uh.

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.560
<v Speaker 1>And it was like, well, maybe, but that's better than

0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.600
<v Speaker 1>saying no to them and having them come after us now, right, Like,

0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.960
<v Speaker 1>this way we at least have a chance that we'll

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.120
<v Speaker 1>still all be friends. And Libertelia was set on a harbor,

0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 1>and the first structures that were built were armed forts

0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 1>on either side of it, and then homes and shops

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.320
<v Speaker 1>were built, and the town slowly began to take shape.

0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.040
<v Speaker 1>Efforts were made to make friends with the native peoples

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 1>of Madagascar. Of course, that is one of those things

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.400
<v Speaker 1>that is also always framed from a very European perspective,

0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.800
<v Speaker 1>So take that as a note if you go looking

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 1>for this story. And Libertelia was on its way to

0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>becoming the peaceful settlement that Misson had envisioned when he

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 1>first ventured onto the land. Libertelia was anti slavery. This

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.440
<v Speaker 1>is something that comes up throughout this account. Misson and

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 1>his men liberated slave ships whenever they came across them,

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 1>and on occasions when slaves were offered to them as barter,

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 1>they would always accept them and then immediately set them free.

0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Misson wanted the people who chose to settle in Libertalia

0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.760
<v Speaker 1>to be called Liberi. The idea was that it was

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 1>open to all and that it transcended any prior nationality

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.640
<v Speaker 1>and signalled a community of equals. Libertalia wasn't Misson's only

0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 1>focus during this formative time, though. He still took the

0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Victoire out to challenge ships and take their goods, and

0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 1>he met with a mix of good and bad luck

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.680
<v Speaker 1>on the sea, and one skirmish with a Portuguese ship.

0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.680
<v Speaker 1>He was able to take a large sum of money,

0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 1>which is about two hundred thousand pounds, but he also

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 1>lost fifty six men in the process, making it the

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.800
<v Speaker 1>greatest loss of life that he experienced in this kind

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.280
<v Speaker 1>of conflict. But he made his way home to the

0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 1>developing town of Libertilia, and from its rudimentary beginnings, the

0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 1>land was worked to grow food, and the town was

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 1>able to barter with other villages. They ended up with

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 1>several hundred head of cattle. But in addition to growing

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.400
<v Speaker 1>its footprint and its own crops, Libertelia also grew in

0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 1>population because other people came to live there, including the

0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:11.440
<v Speaker 1>English privateer Captain Thomas Two. Missol had first encountered too.

0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.080
<v Speaker 1>When the latter sloop appeared in the waters off the

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.879
<v Speaker 1>coast of Madagascar, it appeared there might have been a

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.520
<v Speaker 1>potential idea that they were going to take this new town,

0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 1>but eventually things led to Two and his men joining

0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.840
<v Speaker 1>the colony at Libertelia. If his name sounds familiar, he

0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.119
<v Speaker 1>was part of our episode about Henry every and the

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>raid on the Mughall Fleet. He pops up in a

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:36.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of places. He was a very busy world traveler.

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 1>He was Misson and Two didn't always see things in

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.440
<v Speaker 1>the same light though. Even when Two first arrived in Libertalia,

0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.240
<v Speaker 1>Missan was also coming in with a Portuguese ship that

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 1>he had taken. Missong quickly realized that if they were

0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.640
<v Speaker 1>going to keep the prisoners, they had taken, they would

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.120
<v Speaker 1>need men to be on guard against an uprising, which

0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 1>meant he wouldn't have enough men to go back out

0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 1>to sea. And while he had established the settle meant

0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.120
<v Speaker 1>as a home base and as a place where any

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.119
<v Speaker 1>marin er could call home, he wanted to continue his

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.960
<v Speaker 1>voyages as long as he could. He was still building

0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 1>his settlement and was to be clear getting supplies and

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.639
<v Speaker 1>fortifications and wealth by taking them from ships that he bested,

0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:19.480
<v Speaker 1>even if he was being polite about it. Yeah, I

0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:21.479
<v Speaker 1>don't want to lose sight of the fact that he

0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.399
<v Speaker 1>was stealing from people, even if he seems like a

0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 1>great magnanimous dude. Yeah, I'm going to build a pirate

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.119
<v Speaker 1>utopia funded by piracy, but I'm not calling at that.

0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.160
<v Speaker 1>You guys, we are not pirates unless people treat us

0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.000
<v Speaker 1>like pirates, and then we kind of got to be

0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.320
<v Speaker 1>pirates a little bit. It's there's a moral flexibility in

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.399
<v Speaker 1>the mix of this whole story. So he had planned

0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 1>to just let the ship, the Portuguese ship that he

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 1>had taken and its prisoners go. He also just didn't

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.200
<v Speaker 1>want to take on the load of having to see

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.520
<v Speaker 1>to the needs of all those captured men, like to him,

0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.840
<v Speaker 1>this was just way too great a burden for any

0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.679
<v Speaker 1>value they were going to get out of it. But

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.080
<v Speaker 1>two and even Raccioli, we're not fans of this idea

0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.760
<v Speaker 1>of letting everybody go. They knew that if they set

0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 1>those prisoners free, all of Europe would soon know about

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Libertilia and would invade. My Song called a council and

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.080
<v Speaker 1>explained his position, and the men of the council agreed

0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.080
<v Speaker 1>with him. All the prisoners were brought before my Song.

0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.800
<v Speaker 1>He told them that he knew that they would cause

0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 1>his demise, but that he could cause their deaths if

0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 1>he wished, and that he needed them each to swear

0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 1>an oath not to work against him. Then he gave

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>each of them back any belongings that had been taken

0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.439
<v Speaker 1>from them and set them to sail on a ship

0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.520
<v Speaker 1>that was stripped of all of its guns. Yeah. I

0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 1>feel like so much of his leadership is based on

0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the like we cool, Like that's his whole approach or

0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.679
<v Speaker 1>are we cool? Uh? The next move for Libertilia was

0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.639
<v Speaker 1>actually away from this everybody be cool freedom and no

0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.720
<v Speaker 1>rules approach that it began with. But we will talk

0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:06.119
<v Speaker 1>about that after we first hear from one of our sponsors.

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 1>While the idea of a utopia always sounds great in theory,

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 1>in practice it is really hard to throw a bunch

0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 1>of humans together, tell them they all equally share in

0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 1>the land, in the work, and have the whole thing

0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.879
<v Speaker 1>chug along without any conflict. They are humans, after all.

0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.480
<v Speaker 1>And while things seemed to work with Miisson's original group,

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.560
<v Speaker 1>after two and his men became part of Libertilia, conflicts

0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 1>started to arise. On one occasion, Libertalia was invaded by

0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.640
<v Speaker 1>Portuguese sloops. The battle played out and Nissan's men were victorious,

0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and they treated the defeated men who survived with kindness

0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.199
<v Speaker 1>and hospitality until they saw two of the men who

0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.880
<v Speaker 1>had been set free under oath not to bring any

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>trouble into the settlement. These two men were tried for perjury,

0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 1>found guilty, and executed, and this caused some men to

0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.840
<v Speaker 1>question Maissan's leadership. While Meisson and Caraccioli saw this execution

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.800
<v Speaker 1>as a matter of self preservation of their way of life,

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.520
<v Speaker 1>some of the men saw it as a contradiction of

0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:10.159
<v Speaker 1>everything they'd been told about Libertalia and about its values. Eventually,

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Karaccioli was able to convince everyone of the necessity of

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:17.840
<v Speaker 1>the execution, but it took a lot of effort and rhetoric. Yeah,

0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 1>he sounds, based on this account like he was really

0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.159
<v Speaker 1>quite a good public speaker. But he was often convincing

0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.880
<v Speaker 1>all of the men of what should be done. But then,

0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.720
<v Speaker 1>not long after this, there was an argument between Two's

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 1>men and Misson's The nature of this argument is a

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 1>little unclear, although the account says that Two's men started it.

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Two thought that the matter should be solved with swords,

0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.680
<v Speaker 1>but Misson and Karraccioli wanted to negotiate some sort of accord.

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.480
<v Speaker 1>They did not want to set up their new little

0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.640
<v Speaker 1>utopia as a place where you settled your disagreements by

0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.679
<v Speaker 1>potentially killing each other. And while they sorted out the

0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.720
<v Speaker 1>matter at hand, and they figured out how to settle

0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.720
<v Speaker 1>this particular argument, all three of the captains came to

0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 1>the inclusion that it was actually time for Libertilia to

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:09.000
<v Speaker 1>have some actual laws. So everyone the entire colony was

0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.080
<v Speaker 1>gathered so that the three commanders could explain this plan.

0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.880
<v Speaker 1>They had to have some sort of government, and Misson

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.399
<v Speaker 1>Caraccioli into proposed a democratic system with laws made by

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.919
<v Speaker 1>the people. The men were to divide themselves into groups

0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.879
<v Speaker 1>of ten, and from each group one representative was to

0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.240
<v Speaker 1>be chosen who would assist in setting up the laws

0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.640
<v Speaker 1>and the government of the settlement. Property and land were

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.479
<v Speaker 1>to be divided evenly, but that it would be owned

0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.160
<v Speaker 1>by each man. It would no longer be a system

0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 1>of collective ownership. On the first day that the newly

0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.600
<v Speaker 1>selected lawmakers meant, Caraccioli made a speech and proposed that

0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.679
<v Speaker 1>there should be a Lord Conservator basically a president that

0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.000
<v Speaker 1>would be elected and would serve for terms of three years,

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 1>so he could be re elected, but every three years

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.359
<v Speaker 1>they would revisit that and all agreed, and of course

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:01.719
<v Speaker 1>Misson was immediately made Conservator and two was named as

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Conservator Admiral, and Karaccioli was Secretary of State. And for

0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.960
<v Speaker 1>ten full days this new governing body worked to set

0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:13.679
<v Speaker 1>up the laws of Libertalia. They began, under Caraccioli's office

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:18.080
<v Speaker 1>to even develop a new language for Libertalia that incorporated

0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.640
<v Speaker 1>the various native languages of the many people who had

0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:24.159
<v Speaker 1>settled there. They carefully balanced the man power that was

0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.880
<v Speaker 1>needed to maintain their animals and their crops against their

0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:31.200
<v Speaker 1>needs for naval reinforcements. Yet two was like, let's build

0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 1>our navy, and they were like, hey, somebody's got to

0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.280
<v Speaker 1>feed the cows. So they kind of were figuring out

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 1>some pretty advanced kind of balancing systems about what their

0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.639
<v Speaker 1>society could handle. And Admiral too then set out to

0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 1>gather more members of the colony, hoping to meet with

0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.199
<v Speaker 1>ships at sea and offer to take volunteers to bolster

0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:55.679
<v Speaker 1>Libertalia's numbers. He also went and visited places he knew

0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.400
<v Speaker 1>and sort of told people about it, and as part

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.639
<v Speaker 1>of his can for new citizens, which he first began

0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.280
<v Speaker 1>by finding a settlement of his former men who had

0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.119
<v Speaker 1>not joined up with Libertelia but had started their own camp.

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.800
<v Speaker 1>He spoke really passionately about Libertilia and its government built

0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>around fairness and equality, but also he was clear to

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.280
<v Speaker 1>say that the settlement was also willing to work with

0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.800
<v Speaker 1>other governments, saying, quote, if you will go to America

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:25.840
<v Speaker 1>or Europe and show the advantage which may accrue to

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.159
<v Speaker 1>the English by fixing a colony here out of the

0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 1>love we bear our country, and to wipe away the

0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.399
<v Speaker 1>odious appellation of pirates, with pleasure, we will submit to

0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.600
<v Speaker 1>any who shall come with a commission from a lawful government.

0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.200
<v Speaker 1>But it is ridiculous to think we will become subjects

0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:47.000
<v Speaker 1>of greater rogues than ourselves. But while he was visiting

0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.520
<v Speaker 1>with his friends and potential recruits to their small paradise,

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:54.400
<v Speaker 1>he was surprised when Misson himself found him and told

0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 1>him that everything they had built had been lost. Maison

0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:00.680
<v Speaker 1>told too that the native peoples had attacked the settlement,

0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 1>killed Correzzioli and many others, and that only he and

0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 1>forty five other men had managed to escape aboard the Bijoux. Yeah,

0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:13.520
<v Speaker 1>this was at a point when two was kind of stranded.

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:15.960
<v Speaker 1>There had been a big storm and the Victoire had

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:19.159
<v Speaker 1>actually capsized and many of the crew were killed, but

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>they were able to get the ship, and Two thought

0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 1>that they should head to America and make a fresh start,

0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.480
<v Speaker 1>And there was even discussion that, like, hey, we know

0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:30.879
<v Speaker 1>how to do this now, let's make another settlement. But

0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Missul was so devastated at having lost all of his

0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.480
<v Speaker 1>work that he just had no heart for another attempt.

0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:40.600
<v Speaker 1>So Misson took the Victoire and set out with a

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:43.040
<v Speaker 1>plan that he would meet to again on the Guinea

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 1>coast to regroup, But that meeting never happened. The Victoire

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.919
<v Speaker 1>sank during a storm and Masson went down with a ship.

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:52.720
<v Speaker 1>So it has come up on the show before, but

0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.520
<v Speaker 1>just to recap since the nineteen thirties, the history of

0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:00.000
<v Speaker 1>the lives and bloody exploits of the most noted pirates

0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:02.280
<v Speaker 1>sometimes the general history of Pirates. You'll see it listed

0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.440
<v Speaker 1>in a number of different ways because on some republications

0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:09.560
<v Speaker 1>it has gotten new titles. Has been attributed to journalists,

0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:13.399
<v Speaker 1>spy and novelist Daniel Dafoe, and that attribution came about

0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:15.440
<v Speaker 1>through the work of John Robert Moore, who was a

0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Dafoe biographer, and it has been pretty widely accepted as

0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:21.399
<v Speaker 1>truth at this point. Yeah, there are some other candidates

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:25.040
<v Speaker 1>that people name, including Nathaniel Miss who was a sailor

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 1>and a publisher, but it's so frequently associated with Daniel

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Dafoe that a lot of times that is who the

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:34.120
<v Speaker 1>author is listed as in the library or wherever, with

0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:38.160
<v Speaker 1>like no little asterisk or anything. Yeah, there are definitely

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.400
<v Speaker 1>versions that don't really even talk about how it came

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:45.080
<v Speaker 1>to be that it gets that attribution. So, remembering that

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:48.879
<v Speaker 1>Dafoe's most famous works were novels like Robinson Crusoe and

0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:54.840
<v Speaker 1>maul Flanders. With little evidence to back up, he to

0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:57.679
<v Speaker 1>back up what's it containing it? This account and a

0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:00.280
<v Speaker 1>general history of the robberies and murderers of the most

0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:03.919
<v Speaker 1>notorious pirates is pretty much believed to be fictional. I

0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:06.400
<v Speaker 1>mean it's we've talked about this book in a bunch

0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:10.719
<v Speaker 1>of different episodes and it's all. They all involve people

0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:15.119
<v Speaker 1>we know were real and were involved in piracy, but

0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 1>the details a lot of times are very questionable. And

0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:22.440
<v Speaker 1>an introduction to the modern printing of this work, Maximilian

0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Enovac wrote that the account of the crew and the

0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:27.760
<v Speaker 1>captain that founded the Libertalia as one of the quote

0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 1>most remarkable and neglected works of fiction among the Foe's work.

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:35.880
<v Speaker 1>But there were, as we said, Tracy mentioned, there were definitely,

0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:39.080
<v Speaker 1>in many cases, real people that these stories pulled in,

0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:42.880
<v Speaker 1>and we don't there's not a good way to verify

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.080
<v Speaker 1>or not. It's not like people that were living a

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.840
<v Speaker 1>privateering life were keeping great records, which is probably why

0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 1>some of these fanciful stories grew to fill the void

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:54.960
<v Speaker 1>of people that wanted to know about them. But there

0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:58.960
<v Speaker 1>were a few pirate settlements in the seventeenth and eighteenth century,

0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:02.879
<v Speaker 1>so the idea of Libertanlia is not entirely outside the

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 1>bounds of possibility, and Madagascar, as Tracy mentioned at the

0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:08.920
<v Speaker 1>top of the show, was a popular destination for pirates

0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:12.119
<v Speaker 1>looking for at times a bit of freedom and peace

0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:14.879
<v Speaker 1>and sometimes it take a break from things and also

0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:19.919
<v Speaker 1>to attack other ships. Well yeah, I mean you can't

0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 1>live by rest alone. No, there was a lot of

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:28.560
<v Speaker 1>piratical action happening in that area. Ranters Bay in Madagascar

0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:32.359
<v Speaker 1>was founded by pirate John Plantaine in seventeen twenty, although

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:34.920
<v Speaker 1>he had more of a kingdom in mind than a democracy.

0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 1>And Il Saint Marie, which is four miles east of

0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:41.720
<v Speaker 1>the island of Madagascar, is also believed to have been

0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 1>inhabited by pirates for almost a century and a much

0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:49.320
<v Speaker 1>looser sort of setup than Maisson's purported settlement. So there's

0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 1>a pirate cemetery on that island that continues to be

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:55.720
<v Speaker 1>a tourist attraction. And in two thousand and one, author

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Kevin Rushby published a book called Hunting Pirate Heaven, which

0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:03.640
<v Speaker 1>was part along and part investigative journalism, and he himself

0:29:03.720 --> 0:29:06.680
<v Speaker 1>was basically traveling the roots of privateers, seeking out the

0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 1>sites of the various legendary utopias that have been part

0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:14.040
<v Speaker 1>of pirate lore, and he didn't find Libertilia, and no

0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:17.120
<v Speaker 1>one else has any hard evidence or record of it either.

0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:19.600
<v Speaker 1>It does live on in popular culture, though it has

0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 1>shown up in lots of books and movies and video games,

0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:26.640
<v Speaker 1>including Uncharted for and Fallout four. I haven't played Uncharted for,

0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 1>but in Fallout for, it's kind of a cobbled together

0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:34.719
<v Speaker 1>raider settlement off the coast of Massachusetts. Yeah, it's not.

0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:39.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not so much of the utopia hugfest. No, it's

0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:44.360
<v Speaker 1>definitely not a hugfest. If you go there, people shooting you. Yeah,

0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:46.600
<v Speaker 1>uh yeah. William Burrows wrote about it at one point.

0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:49.440
<v Speaker 1>It's shown up. It's one of those like handy uh

0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:52.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of touchstones that people pull in when they're talking

0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:57.040
<v Speaker 1>about piracy and privateering to give it a feel of authenticity,

0:29:57.200 --> 0:30:00.280
<v Speaker 1>even though that that feel may be based on something

0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:04.240
<v Speaker 1>completely fictional. But it's a fascinating idea. I do think

0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:08.680
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to examine why someone would want to write,

0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 1>presuming it's fiction, to write a story that is so

0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of progressive in this idea of all men being

0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 1>equal and like so anti slavery. It's an interesting thing

0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:23.760
<v Speaker 1>that that would be framed along with the idea of

0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:28.960
<v Speaker 1>piracy and freedom from government, and we're going to go

0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.360
<v Speaker 1>this ship into attacking us so that we can then

0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.320
<v Speaker 1>fight back and take their stuff. Right. Like I said,

0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:39.240
<v Speaker 1>there's some moral flexibility baked into the whole thing. But

0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 1>that does become an interesting thing to look at, like,

0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 1>why would that be such an appealing piece of fiction

0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:47.440
<v Speaker 1>at a time that we don't often think of as

0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:54.000
<v Speaker 1>being really rooted in all men being equal. It's fascinating

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:55.959
<v Speaker 1>and it's a fun read. It's a little bit tricky

0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.240
<v Speaker 1>to get through it because the language is clunky to

0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 1>our modern ear. There's some you know, fast and loose

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:07.640
<v Speaker 1>use of capitalization and yeah, so things you're like, wait,

0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:09.360
<v Speaker 1>is that a proper net? Oh no, it's not. He

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 1>just likes the word prize. Okay, So yeah, there's stuff

0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>like that to contend with. But it is a really

0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:17.920
<v Speaker 1>fun read. Yeah. Well, having read chunks of the book

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:21.480
<v Speaker 1>for research of various episodes of the podcast, it does

0:31:21.560 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 1>tend to be a fun read, if not necessarily an

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.920
<v Speaker 1>historically accurate one. There's part of me, there is a

0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:32.280
<v Speaker 1>doofy part of me that wants in my heart for

0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:35.720
<v Speaker 1>some piece of evidence to appear to prove that everything

0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.960
<v Speaker 1>in the general history is actually accurate and true, because

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:41.760
<v Speaker 1>it would be mind blowing if that were the case. Yeah, like, oh,

0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.560
<v Speaker 1>here is all of my notes, like my big file,

0:31:44.680 --> 0:31:49.200
<v Speaker 1>my binder full newspaper clippings, et cetera, that I used

0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 1>to research this book. Yet No, I don't think. Oh,

0:31:52.600 --> 0:32:00.720
<v Speaker 1>it'd be great, wouldn't it be hilarious? Thanks so much

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 1>for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 1>send us a note, our email addresses History Podcast at

0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:10.520
<v Speaker 1>iHeartRadio dot com, and you can subscribe to the show

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:14.000
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:15.200
<v Speaker 1>to your favorite shows.