1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Luke's World. Doctor Tracy McKenzie is 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: an accomplished historian, author, and professor of history. After twenty 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: two years as a professor at the University of Washington, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: he moved to Wheaton College in Illinois, where he holds 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: the Arthur Holmes Chair of Faith and Learning doo It 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: maintains an extensive background in post Civil War history. While 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: at Wheaton College, Tracy has turned his focus towards the 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: way American Evangelicals remember their National College. One of many 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: works he authored, The First Thanksgiving, What the Real Story 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: tells Us about loving God and learning from history. This 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: book provides an accurate account of the First Thanksgiving and 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: gives insight in the misconceptions about the origins of this 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: classic American holiday and how it really ought to be remembered. 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: So I'm really pleased to welcome my guests, doctor Tracy mackenzie. 15 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us. I just have 16 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: to ask you, giving all of your background in history, 17 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: what motivated you to write this book? Great question. I'm 18 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: sort of going through an evolution as a teacher and scholar, 19 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: as is so often the case, and I wanted to 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: be able to speak more to individuals outside of the 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: walls of the academy. I'm a Christian myself, and also 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to speak to Christian readers 23 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: about how they remember the past. And I particularly was 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: drawn to the topic of Thanksgiving because I think, you know, 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: the way that we remember this event says so much 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: about how our memory the past intersects with our sense 27 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: of who we are, both our national heritage and our 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: faith heritage. And I thought Thanksgiving us a great way 29 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: to probe into that. I knew that you once threw 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 1: an article for the New York Times, So, taking apart 31 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: some of the common risk inceptions of Americans that about 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims from your perspective, were you surprised with some 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: of the things you learned as you delved into the 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: first thanks You? I was surprised by all kinds of things. Actually, 35 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you stop to think about it, very 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: few of us study the Pilgrims after grade school, so 37 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: our understanding of them sort of stays stuck at that 38 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: level of understanding. So, yes, a lot of things surprised me. 39 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: I'll just mention a couple that I think are the 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: most consequential. I think we actually often misunderstand or misremember 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: what motivated the Pilgrims to migrate to New England in 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: the first place. Probably the most common thing that you'll 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: hear is that the Pilgrims migrated in search of religious liberty, 44 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: and I think it's important to sort of complicate that. 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that the Pilgrims felt deeply strongly about that, 46 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: but they actually something we don't recall often. We're not 47 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: coming from England to New England. They were coming from 48 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: Holland and where they were living in Leiden. As the 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: Pilgrim writers described that, they believed that they experienced remarkable 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: religious freedom, particularly for the context of the seventeenth century. 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: So although it was very important to them, it was 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: not what it was propelling them. And if that had 53 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: been the primary motivation, it's doubtful they would ever have 54 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: left Leiden. So they were actually motivated by other factors 55 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: as well, and we often sort of lose sight of those. 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is maybe particularly relevant 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: or consequential is how they remembered that event in the 58 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: fall of sixteen twenty one that we call the First Thanksgiving. 59 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: The Pilgrims when they used the term Thanksgiving meant something 60 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: very different from what we do, and I think it's 61 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: important at least to acknowledge that they thought of Thanksgiving 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: as literally a holy day. They believed that the Scripture 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: authorized at least two kinds of holy days that both 64 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: were supposed to be irregular. One of these holy days 65 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: was a day of humiliation in fasting. They believed that 66 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: was modeled in the old Estimate Scripture. If there seemed 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: to be an extraordinary trial that the community was experiencing, 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: they would declare this holy day of fasting and humiliation 69 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: to seek the Lord's deliverance. If they had some sort 70 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: of extraordinary deliverance from a trial, they would declare a 71 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: holy day to thank the Lord for his deliverance. The 72 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: ef the end of sixteen to twenty one really doesn't 73 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: fit either. One of those Thanksgiving days the Pilgrims thought 74 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: would be spent in church. They would be long solemn 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: affairs with lots of prayer and worship, not playing games 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: outdoors and eating a huge meal. These were people who 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: often spent long periods in church, and I was surprised 78 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: when I went back. At one point was looking at 79 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: the early days in Virginia which because historically I hadn't 80 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: taught you know that the Pilgrims were really religious, but 81 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: now when you went down to the Virginia colony, it 82 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: was more commercial. Well, it turned out they were in 83 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: church like eight or nine times a week in Virginia, 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: and I would have thought of that as a pretty 85 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: serious commitment. And so did the Pilgrims have a similar 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: kind of sort of church centric focus. Most definitely, there's 87 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: no doubt that they did their meeting house in the 88 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: original settlement. There was at the heart of the settlement. 89 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: It served both for a fort actually originally and as 90 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: their meeting house. And yes, church was very central. One 91 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: of the most famous nineteenth century paintings of the Pilgrims 92 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: shows the Pilgrims sort of filing en route to the 93 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: meeting house on a Sunday. They actually required church attendance. 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: That was true. Also a Jamestown that we often forget, 95 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: there was a fine for not attending church. And there's 96 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: a famous entry in Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation as 97 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: early as sixteen twenty four where he says he sent 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: assistant sort of through the community knocking on doors on 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: Sunday morning and rousting people out of bed who might 100 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: have chosen to sleep in. So yes, the importance of 101 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: the church was central to their understanding of what they 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: were about, and that was just as true or even 103 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: truer in these non established from churches as it was 104 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: in the Church of England. Right. Absolutely, the Pilgrims had 105 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: a variety of objections to the Church of England, to 106 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: their particular practice and hierarchical structure, but they absolutely emphasize 107 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: the centrality of the church, and their desire to separate 108 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: from the Anglican Church was never intended to reduce the 109 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: importance of the church to the life of the community, 110 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: but just to allow a different sort of expression of 111 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: what they believed was God's right design. They arrive, they 112 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: have very difficult you don't They lose like a third 113 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: of the requarter of their population. It's actually higher than that. 114 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: There's one hundred and two passengers on the Mayflower, as 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: William Bradford lists them in his history, and fifty two 116 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: of the hundred and to die by the spring, so 117 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: it's just a hair over one half. And they actually 118 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: don't die on the voyage. There's only one fatality on 119 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: the voyage itself, but they die after arrival. They actually 120 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: are going to choose Plymouth as a permanent site for 121 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: settlement just before Christmas in sixteen twenty and that means 122 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: that they have to start the arduous work of building 123 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: a settlement right at the beginning of the winter. They 124 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: actually live on board the Mayflower. They have to wade 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: ashore every day, if you can imagine, through water up 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: to their shoulders, and they die of pneumonia, they die 127 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: of exposure, and almost every family is affected. There were 128 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: eighteen married couples on the Mayflower, and only three of 129 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: those couples survived that first winter in tact. So yeah, 130 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: it just devastates the community. And so when we think 131 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: of that celebration in the fall of sixteen twenty one, 132 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: I just always think it's so important to remember that 133 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: it's a celebration on the heels of that devastating winter, 134 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: and every person that was involved in that celebration would 135 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: have been effected very very directly by loss which sort 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: of on a much grander scale, if I remember correctly, 137 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: as a pattern the Lincoln head when he officially proclaimed 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: Today of Thanksgiving, because it was in the middle of 139 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: a civil war, and you know kind of odd way. 140 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: You know, he's asking people to give thanks for what 141 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: was really an agony and for many of them personal 142 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: loss in their family. So Lincoln is not the first 143 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: president to issue a proclamation of Thanksgiving, but he actually 144 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: issues one in the middle of Civil War that becomes 145 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: really the first of consecutive proclamations ever since. And so 146 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: that proclamation, that first one he makes, is not long 147 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: after the Battle of Gettysburg, So it's that same year, 148 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: in the fall of eighteen sixty three, and Lincoln is 149 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: asking his fellow Americans to express thanks and acknowledge the 150 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: kindness of God. If you look at that first proclamation, 151 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: it's also very interesting he is doing something that presidents 152 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: have done almost ever after, which is to tell Americans 153 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: in particular what they should be thankful for. And Lincoln 154 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: was trying to make an argument that as tragic as 155 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: a conflict had been, that God was giving the North 156 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: victory and that there was every reason to expect that 157 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: the Union was going to be restored. To go back 158 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: to the original Pilgrims, I confess I was of the 159 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: generation where we grew up eating turkey and assuming that 160 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: it was kind of happy time and that the Indians 161 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: were deeply involved, that it was a much softer, more 162 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: positive experience, that I might use it that way, and 163 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: with a little understanding of the trials and the tribulations 164 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: that the Pilgrims had gone through in order to achieve this. 165 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: To what extent is the whole concept of the Indians 166 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: being involved a myth? And to what extent were they 167 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: affect part of this experience? Yeah, that's a great question, 168 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: and it's a topic that is sort of fraught with 169 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: political implications today, and I think we tend to gravitate 170 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: toward one extreme or the other, either I think exaggerating 171 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: the conflicts and hostility between the Pilgrims and the neighboring 172 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Native American tribes, or we turn it into a kind 173 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: of Hallmark Channel warm and fuzzy interaction. And I think 174 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit either of those. We have limited evidence 175 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: on that relationship, particularly when we think about the sixteen 176 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: twenty one celebration itself. Almost everything we know about it 177 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: comes from a single letter written by one of the 178 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: Pilgrim columnists, man named Edward Winslow, and what he tells us, 179 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: among other things, is that Chief Massasoyet, who was the 180 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: head of the Wampanoag tribe and his braves came among them. 181 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: That's the exact wording, you know, sort of that passive tense, 182 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: that came among them. What he doesn't say is that 183 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: they were invited. He says in the fact that they 184 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: showed up, and we know from other documents from the 185 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: period that this was something that the Wampanoid we're doing regularly, 186 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: so much so that by the late summer preceding that 187 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: all celebration and the Pilgrims that actually sent a delegation 188 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: to the Wampanoag and said, we actually cannot feed you 189 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: every time that you come, and we're asking you to 190 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: sort of respect that. So I actually think probably the 191 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: Wampanoag arrived without invitation, but we also know that they 192 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: arrived with some food of their own, and that was 193 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: probably pretty welcome. I think the relationship more broadly between 194 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims and the Native American people's was complicated. Some 195 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: of those tribes in the areas the Pilgrims have quite 196 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: a bit of conflict with, including violent conflict leading to death. 197 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: But the relationship with the Wampanouag may have been tense, 198 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: but it was a positive relationship on the whole. Effectively, 199 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,119 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims strike a kind of treaty with the Wampanouag 200 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: that lasts for half a century. I think they think 201 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: of themselves as allies, even if maybe a little bit 202 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: strained at times or sometimes uncomfortable. I think in the 203 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: long run, you'd have to characterize it as a successful 204 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: positive interaction that they had. Were they allies against other tribes, 205 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So there's actually any number of Native 206 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: American tribes in the area around the coastal Massachusetts, and 207 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: the area had been destabilized historians believe, actually only in 208 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: the last few years before the Pilgrim's arrival by disease. 209 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what the disease was, but it 210 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: clearly had a virulent effect on the population there. But 211 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: it had an uneven effect, so that some tribes had 212 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: been effected pretty significantly. Other tribes had been affected not 213 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: at all. There was a tribe actually that lived on 214 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: the side at Plymouth, the Patuxet, that had been literally 215 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: wiped out entirely. So this had pretty much destabilized the 216 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: relations between the Native American peoples and I think the 217 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: wampano would probably do see the arrival of the Pilgrims 218 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: as a potential ally, at least in the short term, 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: because they have been effected very much by the disease, 220 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: and they are I think fearful of being overrun by 221 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: tribes like the Massachusetts Indians, which were nearby. I guess 222 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that the number one disruptor of Native 223 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: American life in that period it was actually a disease, 224 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: and because they had no historic experience with things like measles, 225 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: their populations were something we can appreciate. The middle of 226 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: the pandemic, they were just getting hit with wave after 227 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: wave of a variety of diseases that were taking, in 228 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: some cases devastating tolls of the population. So there was 229 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: a huge disruption under way, driven really by biology rather 230 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: than European aggression. That's very much the case. Probably contact 231 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: with sailors, with traders maybe, but you're right, unintended, impossible 232 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: to anticipate or predict, but very significant in its effect. 233 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: How should we look back on this subcurence is thanksgiving 234 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: something since it's now so deeply embedded that we should 235 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: in fact celebrate a sort of a quintessentially American experience, 236 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: even if it started very differently than our first and 237 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: second great classes might have taught us well. I mean, 238 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: I certainly like to celebrate Thanksgiving, and I think in 239 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: many respects we would think of it as a quintessential 240 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: American holiday. As a historian, where I want to stand 241 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: up and object is when we believe that we are 242 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: absolutely falling in the steps of the Pilgrims and what 243 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: we're doing, because the reality is they actually would have 244 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: objected to a regularly prescribed day of Thanksgiving. They thought 245 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: it should be irregular and it should be always in 246 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: whom with their understanding of God's extraordinary work, either in 247 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: blessing or judgment. And the other thing I think is 248 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: worth noting is that what we understand as a sort 249 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: of traditional celebration of Thanksgiving doesn't date from the seventeenth century. 250 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: It actually dates from the late nineteenth century. There was 251 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: a writer named Jane Austen, and I always have to 252 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: stop and spell that last name. Her last name was 253 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: Austi n So she was not the author of Pride 254 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: and Prejudice and other novels by that English author. Jane 255 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: Austen was a Massachusetts housewife in the eighteen eighties and 256 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: eighteen nineties who wrote romance novels, and she wrote a 257 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: novel called Standish a Standish, which described, probably for the 258 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: first time for broad American audience, this vision of a 259 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: community gathering for Thanksgiving celebration that was picked up by 260 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: popular magazines and serialized, and then artists began to render it. 261 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: So most everything that we associate with historical origins of 262 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: the holiday comes about two and a half centuries after 263 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: the fact. But it has been something that Americans have 264 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: found unifying. Not always Thanksgiving. Actually, when it begins to 265 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: be celebrated, it's primarily celebrated in New England and not 266 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: in the South. The Pilgrims actually did not believe you 267 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: should celebrate Christmas. They didn't think that that was a 268 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: holiday that was prescribed in scripture. And so in New 269 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: England you make Thanksgiving the big holiday and you sort 270 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: of pass on Christmas. And in the Southern States, you 271 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: make Christmas the big holiday and you pass on Thanksgiving 272 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: because it's a Yankee holiday and you don't want any 273 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: part of that. And it's really sort of toward the 274 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: end of the eighteen nineties that you can begin to 275 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: say that Thanksgiving is something that all regions of the 276 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: country embrace. Like so many things, traditions that we believe 277 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: are sort of inscribed in the distant past or newer 278 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: than we realize. But it has been a holiday for 279 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: the most part, that is less commercial, that is less politicized, 280 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: as more unifying, and in all those ways, I think 281 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: we would say it's been positive on the whole in 282 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: its role as a historian, I was intrigued you say 283 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: at one point, quote, at its best, the study of 284 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: history always involves a simultaneous encounter with both the familiar 285 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: and the strange, And it's a great phrase. Can you 286 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: explain what you mean by yeah, absolutely. I love to 287 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: talk about that with my students. It basically is suggesting that, 288 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: you know, anytime we encounter individuals from another time or place, 289 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: we're going to encounter beings that share certain ways of 290 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: thinking and looking at the world with us, and almost 291 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: always have ways of thinking and looking at the world 292 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: that are different from those that we would hold. And 293 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: the danger that we have is to gravitate toward one 294 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: extreme or the other. So we might look at individuals 295 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: in the past and we would say they are so bizarre, 296 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: they are so strange, or foreign to us, that there's 297 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: nothing that we can learn from them, there's no way 298 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: that we can relate to them. Or on the other hand, 299 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: we might say they're just like our neighbors and funny clothes. 300 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: We see things exactly the same way. And the irony 301 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: is that both of those extremes ensure that we don't 302 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: learn anything. We don't learn anything that would actually enrich 303 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: our lives or perhaps challenge us to think more deeply 304 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: about what we believe. I think we always sort of 305 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: go to the past with the idea that there are 306 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: both of these elements at play, and what we want 307 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: to make sure, I would suggest, is that we at 308 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: least take seriously those things that are different, because it's 309 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: the ways that individuals from the past are different from 310 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: us that we actually encounter the opportunity to learn from them. 311 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that the Pilgrims believed in things that 312 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: at the very least would be good for us to 313 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: hear and to wrestle with and to think about deeply 314 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: before we dismiss them. That's the idea. I'm such an 315 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: evangelist for history. I actually believe there's so much that 316 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: we can learn from the past, but we have to 317 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: be careful about these habits that we have of either 318 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: making the past totally exotic or making it just like 319 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: the present. You're a very interesting distinction, which I found 320 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: very helpful. When you reminded us that we need heroes 321 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: in history but not idols. I think that's really a 322 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: wonderful formula. Can you elaborate a little bit of what 323 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: you mean by the notion that we do need heroes, 324 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: but even our heroes can't become idols. That's right. When 325 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: I think of an idol, I think of someone that 326 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: we believe we have to follow that person's example or 327 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: that group's example. We have to submit to their convictions 328 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: because they have some sort of absolute authority over our lives. 329 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: And I don't think that that is ever healthy, And 330 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: from a Christian perspective, that's actually wrong. It's not appropriate 331 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: to treat anyone but God alone in that way. But 332 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: on the other hand, we don't want to dismiss individuals 333 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: who have something to teach us and disregard them either 334 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: simply because they're old or outdated, or they're dead white males, 335 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: or whatever dismissive language we might want to use. So 336 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: when I say we need to search for heroes. I mean, 337 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: we absolutely should be searching for role models. We should 338 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: be searching for individuals that embodied values or characteristics that 339 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: we want to affirm, that we want to hold up 340 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: as sort of ideals to pursue. But that does not 341 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: free us from applying discernment, from thinking carefully and critically 342 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: about them, because, again, to use a Christian perspective, everyone 343 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: but God alone is fallen, so we all fall short 344 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: in some ways, and so sort of making absolute the 345 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: model of any human being is inappropriate. But being able 346 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: with discernment to identify values that we admire and want 347 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: to replicate, and finding individuals who modeled them, I think 348 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: is something we ought to be about regularly. Well, in 349 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: that tradition, what do you think Americans can learn from 350 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims. I actually think there's a long list of things. 351 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: I think we start with the kind of courage and 352 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: determination that they showed simply in their undertaking of coming 353 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: to New England. The logistical obstacles, if we think back 354 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: to that seventeenth century context, the logistical obstacles of trying 355 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: to relocate even a group of only one hundred individuals 356 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: across an ocean to a distant continent. It's a little 357 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: like trying to colonize Mars, I think, to us today. 358 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: So they showed enormous determination in that regard, enormous perseverance 359 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: when sort of their worst nightmares were realizing that first winter. 360 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: Of course, both of those things are admirable. I think 361 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims would challenge us in a variety of ways. 362 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that they absolutely raised 363 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: to highest ideal was a commitment to the welfare. They 364 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: were not actually nearly so individualistic as Americans I think 365 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: are mostly today, and so there's a kind of self sacrifice, 366 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: a self denial for the common good that they're constantly promoting. 367 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: They fall short of it sometimes, but it's an ideal 368 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: that they absolutely take seriously. I admire that. I think 369 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: even as the language that they used occasionally to describe 370 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: themselves as important, they didn't regularly refer to one another 371 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: as pilgrims. Will and Bradford did use that terminology. One 372 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: of their deacons, Robert Cushman did, And when they used 373 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: that terminology, they were reflecting a real mindset, the idea 374 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: that they were passing through this world, that their ultimate 375 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: hope was not in temporal things, was I think absolutely 376 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: sort of woven into the warp and woof of their 377 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: society and of their worldview. And of course I admire 378 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: that greatly. When you think about Thanksgiving this year, what 379 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: are the kind of lessons from the first Thanksgiving that 380 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: you think we should all get attention to. Oh, probably 381 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: a variety of things would come to mind, but one 382 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: of the most obvious is simply that they modeled a 383 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of mindset which said that everything good in their 384 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: lives was a mercy, an expression or extension of God's grace, 385 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: and they believed that there were always reasons to be thankful. Again, 386 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,719 Speaker 1: I go back to that context for that first sixteen 387 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: twenty one celebration, when there are eighteen married couples that 388 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: have been separated by death, there are twenty six families, 389 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: all but four of them have lost at least one member, 390 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: and they are able to proclaim God's goodness, find joy, 391 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 1: find reasons for gratitude, and for hope. In particular, just 392 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: that inset of hope just strikes me and it humbles 393 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: me when I think about it. So that's where I 394 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: think we start in learning from them. Listen, I really 395 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: appreciate your sharing with us, and we're going to have 396 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: your book listed on our show page, and I think 397 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: it's a great read for this time of year. And 398 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time and showing the leadership 399 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: to delve into this and to make it so clear. 400 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you doing this for folks who 401 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: want to learn more about Thanksgiving at this appropriate time. Well, 402 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. It's been a pleasure talking with you, 403 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: and I just wish you and all of your audience 404 00:24:41,040 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: a wonderful Thanksgiving. It was really great to have a 405 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: historian like doxor Tracy mackenzie carry us through that first 406 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving from a historic perspective, and I have to say 407 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: it's a little different than my perspective. I remember when 408 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: I was young, we always went up to Lewistown, Pennsylvania 409 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: to my Aunt Toots and Uncle Red's, and the whole 410 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: family would gather and we would get a giant turkey. 411 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: Of course, I was like six or seventh, so giant 412 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: was a relative word. But one of my great goals 413 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: was always here at the turkey leg, which I guess 414 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: was a little bit selfish, but I confess I really 415 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: liked turkey legs. I also really like cranberries, so I 416 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: always thought we had a great Thanksgiving, and people would 417 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: watch football in the afternoon, Red who worked really, really hard, 418 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: would almost always take about a forty minute nap, laying 419 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: on the couch in the middle of the living room, 420 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: and people would sit around in gossip and would fill 421 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: up with smells of pumpkin pie and apple pie and 422 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: turkey dressing and everything else. So I actually had sort 423 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: of a culinary Thanksgiving at the heart of my experience. 424 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: And then as a really little kid, I did all 425 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: the things that doctor mackenzie was describing. We looked at 426 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: the modernized version of Pilgrims, the black hats and the outfits, 427 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: the Native Americans coming to lunch, and it was all 428 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating and obviously very different from the actual Thanksgiving, 429 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: and very different from Thanksgiving as it's evolved since then. 430 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: The last I've been very fortunate in having been able 431 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: to go for a number of years to the North 432 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: American College in Rome, which is the seminary, the pope 433 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: seminary for American priests to come to, and they always 434 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: have a terrific Thanksgiving dinner and they always organize all 435 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 1: of their seminarians by state, so we get to go 436 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: to the Pennsylvania, the Georgia, the Wisconsin and see people. 437 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful time of fellowship and of giving, really 438 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: feeling that the year has been amazing, and it's always 439 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 1: been amazing. This year is different than most because this 440 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: year includes the whole pandemic crisis, which in Italy is 441 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: once again closing things down. But I think even in 442 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: the middle of the pandemic, most of us have so 443 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: much to be thankful for, starting with life itself, with relatives, 444 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: of friends, with the ability to dream and to recognize it. 445 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: At some point, the pandemic will disappear, just as it 446 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: did back in the nineteen eighteen nineteen nineteen Spanish flu cycle, 447 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: and the life will go on, and that we will 448 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: have a chance to continue to develop. I also think 449 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: that there's really something to the tradition which Washington briefly 450 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: started and then Lincoln picked up on during the Civil War, 451 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: and that is the notion that there's much to give 452 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: thanks for it, and that to take a day and 453 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: turn to God, give a heart taught prayer for your friends, 454 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: for yourself. We have several friends who have significant health challenges, 455 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: and this is a great Thanksgiving to ask God's blessing 456 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: on them. The power of prayer, I think is real, 457 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: and I know of cases where it's at the huge 458 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: your back. This is a wonderful time of year, even 459 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: with all the problems we currently have, even with all 460 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: the challenges we cared to have, and I hope that 461 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: each of you will have a wonderful Thanksgiving, whether with 462 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: your family or have separated, by getting with them by 463 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: phone call or by zoom or by some device, phacetime, 464 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: you name it. We have many more ways of sharing 465 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: together than we used to, even when we're geographically separate, 466 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: and I know I'm looking forward to calling both my 467 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: daughters and their husbands and tracking down my grandchildren and 468 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: crist and I will spend a fair amount of Thanksgiving 469 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: talking to friends all over the world and sharing thanks 470 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: to God for all the different blessing we've had over 471 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: the last year, and frankly asking God's blessing on the 472 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: coming year on helping all of us everywhere on the 473 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: planet overcome this epidemic and move on into a healthier 474 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: and better FATU himself. I'm delighted to be able to 475 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: share happy Thanksgiving with everyone who listens to the podcasts, 476 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: and I hope you will pass that on to your friends. 477 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests, doctor Tracy Mackenzie. You can 478 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: get a link to order his book The First Thanksgiving, 479 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: What the Real Story tells Us about loving God and 480 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: learning from History on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 481 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gingwich three sixty and iHeartMedia. 482 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Guarnsey Sloan, 483 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 484 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 485 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 486 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple podcast and both rate 487 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 488 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 489 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: of new Tworld can sign up for my three free 490 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: weekly columns at Gangwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 491 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtworld.