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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an old role. The

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Speaker 1: engineers say, what's up Phil? Hello, this is filthy Phil.

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Speaker 1: I'm on it today, buddy. I'm fired up to yerba

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Speaker 1: mates this morning. Then yeah, one and a half feeling

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Speaker 1: feeling introduced? Is this is something you think? People make

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Speaker 1: fun of me that I drink this? What's this ship

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Speaker 1: called urba mate? Mate? I mean I can only speak

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Speaker 1: for people I know, and the answer is yes, that's

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Speaker 1: all we talk about. Yes, we just make fun of

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Speaker 1: you exactly. All right, Well, we're gonna moving on from

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Speaker 1: that because I am a very fragile, very fragile ego. Um,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot, a lot of things to cover

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Speaker 1: on the show today. I'm excited about all the emails

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Speaker 1: that we got from you. I'm excited about some of

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Speaker 1: the conversations we're gonna have. I will admit to today's

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Speaker 1: podcast part of today's podcast being a bit self indulgent,

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Speaker 1: overtly political. There's a lot some stuff I want to say, uh,

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Speaker 1: some stuff I've been inspired to say by one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite writers. So we're gonna we're gonna go over

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Speaker 1: that here with our buddy Miles and ult the director

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Speaker 1: of Fishing one of the hosts event podcast, but also

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite people to to politely argue about

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Speaker 1: politics with, respectfully argue about politics with. So something we're

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Speaker 1: gonna cover this is coming out. I think this is

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Speaker 1: coming out what Tuesday? So this will be what right

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Speaker 1: after inauguration one? Inauguration? What's the now it'll be it'll

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Speaker 1: be the day before, the day before, So this that

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Speaker 1: it'll be given there'll be some heightened sense politically, um

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Speaker 1: something I think that hopefully you guys will like to

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Speaker 1: hear before we get to that. Uh one myself. I

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Speaker 1: bet Eric's got his own reasoning, He said, why emergent. First,

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Speaker 1: it's technically correct. Emergent is defined is coming into view

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Speaker 1: or notice, issuing rising from um a surrounding medium, coming

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Speaker 1: into existence, rising casually or unexpectedly. As we just said,

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Speaker 1: those of us who chose to come to hunting emerged

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Speaker 1: from an ordinary life into a life of hunting. Second,

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Speaker 1: and more importantly, it sounds badass. When you hear something

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Speaker 1: like emergent technology, you think, damn, that's gonna be some

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Speaker 1: cool ship coming down the pipeline. It's the same for

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Speaker 1: us emergent hunters. He said, I've been working on an

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Speaker 1: article in this topic, but I'll share a few thoughts

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Speaker 1: about emergent hunters and why they're badasses. We aren't part

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Speaker 1: of the tradition or patrilineal descent. We aren't conscripts to

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Speaker 1: the cause. Were volunteers. We chose hunting. While most hunters

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Speaker 1: learned through us Moses as kids. We had to piece

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Speaker 1: together all the myriad of skills it takes to hunt

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Speaker 1: as adults. And when you think about it, the amount

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Speaker 1: of knowledge and skills you need to be competent wherein

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Speaker 1: to hunt is pretty damn overwhelming. He said he started

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Speaker 1: hunting around eight years ago. He's from Los Angeles. I

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Speaker 1: grew up as an eagle scout and then got into

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Speaker 1: hunting and is now cranking uh and now calls himself

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Speaker 1: a hunter, not an emergent hunter. So maybe there's some

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Speaker 1: sort of graduation process we can put it in UM.

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Speaker 1: He also says, PS just want to give a shout

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Speaker 1: out to fill to give UM some confidence. I to

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Speaker 1: love video games and Star Wars and stuff, and I

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Speaker 1: have a wife and two young kids, but I am

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Speaker 1: also a hunter. He can do it too. Plus hopefully

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Speaker 1: he'll get to kill a turkey, which I still haven't done.

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Speaker 1: So there you go. Phil thoughts Emergent Hunting. That was

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Speaker 1: a pretty good I mean, I couldn't I couldn't have

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Speaker 1: put it better myself in terms of MS hunting. That

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Speaker 1: was a very That was an eloquent statement there. Um yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like it a lot, Ben i'd I'd say the

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Speaker 1: one thing that kind of that made me chuckle was

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Speaker 1: that he was like, you're emerging from your previous life

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Speaker 1: as if somehow you're being reborn, or you like you're

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Speaker 1: or like you're you're you're you're waking up for the

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Speaker 1: first time. You're a caterpillar, red pill, Bro, you're a caterpillar.

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Speaker 1: You're emerging into a butterfly as a hunter. I like

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Speaker 1: that he takes it that seriously. Man. I like that

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Speaker 1: he's he's thinking of this stuff is really a life

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Speaker 1: changing deal, which I do believe it is. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with it, man, I'm gonna go with

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Speaker 1: emergent Hunters. We're gonna we're gonna penalize anyone that says

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Speaker 1: adult onset hunters. We will cancel you if you bring

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Speaker 1: that to this table. Um canceled, canceled, Yeah, cancel culture.

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Speaker 1: Um so we're gonna go with it. So thanks, Thanks Eric,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, man. And if you write that

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Speaker 1: article us, no, we may share it with the folks.

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Speaker 1: He's also losing California is a board member of the

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Speaker 1: California Chapter Back on Shouters and Anglers. So he's not

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Speaker 1: just writing about it and talking about he's doing something

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Speaker 1: about it, which uh, I can respect all the way around. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to this idea of new hunters, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this being the year of the new Hunter, you know,

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Speaker 1: I liked giving everyone that an idea of something they

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Speaker 1: can step into that's a little bit more important than

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Speaker 1: just something you do on the weekends. So do you

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Speaker 1: feel feel that, Phil, you feel like it's going to

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Speaker 1: change your life? Uh? To be honest, no, I mean

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Speaker 1: I think I think the experience of going out and

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Speaker 1: and taking a life and and you know, harvesting, harvesting

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Speaker 1: the meat and consuming it. I mean, that's that in

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Speaker 1: and of itself. And I think, yeah, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: like a that's a life event, that's a life ten

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Speaker 1: of experience. I don't see it changing the way I

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Speaker 1: live day to day or stuff I think about. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it will be like an occasional weekend activity.

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Speaker 1: That's how I'm I'm seeing it somewhere out there, air

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Speaker 1: calls turning over in his truck driving to work over.

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Speaker 1: Uh So you know, Eric said to all your emerging

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Speaker 1: hunters out there, Phil included, you are badasses and be

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Speaker 1: proud of it. So so be proud of it. Don't

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Speaker 1: be ashamed. Not that you would either way. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: the next email, Yeah, you know I would. I would

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Speaker 1: again say I'm always I want to do this one

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Speaker 1: when I can. The the th C inbox after almost

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Speaker 1: two and a half years of doing this is still hopping.

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Speaker 1: So I'm assuming that means you guys are still loving

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Speaker 1: what you hear. If you are, give us a review,

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Speaker 1: give us the five stars, right, a right review of

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Speaker 1: the show, do all that stuff. Um, but you know

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Speaker 1: what gives me the most satisfaction is reading these emails.

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Speaker 1: And now this one comes in from Zach and man,

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Speaker 1: it's a long one, but it's important, I think. And Phil,

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Speaker 1: can you put on your doctor Phil hat this one.

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Speaker 1: We gotta help this man solve a problem. Yep, it's

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Speaker 1: on there, it is. How does it like? Wow, it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. So Zach says, I have been listening to

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Speaker 1: TC religiously since the summer, but this is my first

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Speaker 1: time write again. I started to listen to this podcast

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Speaker 1: as an intern for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Park while

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Speaker 1: driving for hours on end mapping fences, and I was

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Speaker 1: drawn into the philosophical conversations about the outdoors in our

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Speaker 1: food system. This podcast is truly one for people who

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Speaker 1: think about hunting deeper than it's face value, which should

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Speaker 1: include all hunters, anglers, hunters, bikers, and people who eat anyway.

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Speaker 1: Sorry for the long email, but I had it right

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Speaker 1: in about a situation I'm facing. For some background on

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Speaker 1: my plea for advice, I'm a junior studying Wildlife Ecollege

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Speaker 1: and management at Oklahoma State University. I consider myself a hunter,

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Speaker 1: though I can count on one hand the amount of

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Speaker 1: times that I have gone out on just a day

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Speaker 1: hunt this year. What can I say? Video games are easy?

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Speaker 1: Why is this happening? I don't think. I don't think

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Speaker 1: you understand how video game culture and games in general,

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Speaker 1: have you know, with what's the word proliferated? Yeah, apparently don't.

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Speaker 1: I thought we were in a safe space. I thought

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Speaker 1: we were in the trust tree where we all go

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Speaker 1: outside and we don't worry about video games. But apparently

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong. There are dozens of us there. There are

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Speaker 1: dozens of cult members. I consider myself fairly savvy, says

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Speaker 1: Zach on the outdoors, and try to keep up to

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Speaker 1: date on conversations and kind servation issues throughout my state

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Speaker 1: in the United States. It is my dream to one

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Speaker 1: day work as a wildlife biologist or a game ward.

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Speaker 1: I am in need of a bit of a sage

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Speaker 1: wisdom about a situation surrounding my current roommate. I live

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Speaker 1: in a single wide trailer on a thirty acre piece

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Speaker 1: of ground with a great fishing and a duck pond

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Speaker 1: attached outside of my college town. This land and trailer

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Speaker 1: is owned by one of my roommates family members. My

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Speaker 1: roommate on the outside is a die hard redneck hunter.

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Speaker 1: The majority of his wardrobes camouflage. The house is decorated

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Speaker 1: with Turkey fans and painted European mounts, and his ammunition

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Speaker 1: is strown about the house to underscore his lack of

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Speaker 1: firearms knowledge competence in safety. Hunting appears to be his life,

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Speaker 1: as he historically skipped some of our shared classes because

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Speaker 1: he was out hunting or drinking the night before. Ron Bam,

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Speaker 1: friend of the media, Ron Bam, friend of the mediater podcast,

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Speaker 1: and uh badass fellow. He says on the Hunting Dog podcast,

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Speaker 1: it has a term for this type of hunter that

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Speaker 1: really describes my roommate, Joe twelve Gage s seaking the

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Speaker 1: Hunting Dogs. He has a one year old black lab

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Speaker 1: that he quote unquote trains as a retriever. The irony

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Speaker 1: in my roommate is that he and I share a

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Speaker 1: major passion wildlife and hunting. Why is this ironic, Well,

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Speaker 1: my roommate does a lot of hunting. During dof season September,

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Speaker 1: he hunted every afternoon of the first couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: of this season. He put me on my first ever

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Speaker 1: ducks this year on the duck Opener. He helped his

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Speaker 1: younger brother harvests first year back in November, and has

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Speaker 1: absolutely provided access to his family's ground and a family's

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Speaker 1: friends land to help some of his friends limit out

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Speaker 1: on ducks and deer. This in and of itself is

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Speaker 1: absolutely awesome and taken alone, is nothing but an advancement

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Speaker 1: of the hunting community. And this one indeed be the

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Speaker 1: case if he didn't ignore hunting regulations and our values

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Speaker 1: with reckless abandoned. He does not treat at life with

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Speaker 1: the respect they are due. When he shoots an animal,

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Speaker 1: he will wait for hours or even days to process it.

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Speaker 1: This is not dry aging either. He leaves their carcasons

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Speaker 1: out in the rain, exposed and on refrigerated, often on

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Speaker 1: at it. More times than not, he includes a drink

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Speaker 1: or two or seven before he starts a hunt, often

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Speaker 1: on the drive over. He has set and hunted over

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Speaker 1: bait for migratory birds several times. He has exceeded aggregate

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Speaker 1: possession limits on waterfowl, ignored means of take hunted outside

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Speaker 1: of shooting light hunting from a moving boat, and his

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Speaker 1: most recent offense has been shooting a limit of ducks

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Speaker 1: and leaving it on my porch for three days so

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Speaker 1: far in fifty degree weather. I have done my part

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Speaker 1: to advise him and the people that he hunts with

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Speaker 1: that they are not in full compliance with the law.

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Speaker 1: I have also excused myself from hunts that may be

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Speaker 1: illegal or unsafe. A mega nerd move, for sure, but

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Speaker 1: they're right move. Nonetheless, Here in lies my moral dilemma

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Speaker 1: and plea for advice I do not know what to do.

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Speaker 1: He cannot continue operating like this. He is liable to

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Speaker 1: get himself or others hurt. There are several times where

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Speaker 1: I have told him to watch where his muzzle is

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Speaker 1: pointing as he flagged myself and others in our hunting party.

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Speaker 1: He's also going to catch charges at some point. Getting

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Speaker 1: away with these relatively small violations now is only going

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Speaker 1: to embolden him to start blatantly poaching in the future.

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Speaker 1: I know I cannot enforce my morality of my roommate,

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Speaker 1: but it's hunting style during and especially after the shot

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Speaker 1: go against my true values. Any advice on the situation

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Speaker 1: would be greatly appreciate it. I did not know whether

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Speaker 1: I should contact the game warden, give him a come

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Speaker 1: to Jesus meeting, or do nothing. I'm very hesitant to

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Speaker 1: take any action, but I know something should be done. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Phil that yikes, yikes, yacks, yis. I'll let you go first, there, Philip.

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Speaker 1: Dr Phil, Wow, it's so kind of you. Give him somebody.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I this is just tough for me because

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Speaker 1: I don't really know that the culture. I've never been

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Speaker 1: in it from an outsider's perspective, though. I mean, like

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Speaker 1: I've said this before, these are the kind of people

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Speaker 1: and stories that non hunters here, and it just sets

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Speaker 1: it gives you all a bad name like like this,

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Speaker 1: that's the stuff that like, it discuss you. It turns

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Speaker 1: you away from hunting and hunters. It it sets stereotypes up. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not good. It's I mean, it's like not good

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Speaker 1: for conservation, but it's also not good for the way

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Speaker 1: hunters look in the public eye. Uh. That that being said, like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what like if it's really easy for me

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Speaker 1: to sit behind this mic and be like, oh, you

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Speaker 1: should call a game warden and turn them in. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but I mean I don't know, Ben, is that something

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Speaker 1: you would do? Like I don't. I don't think sitting

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Speaker 1: him down and having an intervention is going to help anything. Yeah. Man,

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Speaker 1: this is why I think this is tough. And again,

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Speaker 1: I I there's so much nuance in this, and you

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Speaker 1: got I know everybody likes when I use that term now,

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Speaker 1: but there's so much nuance in this, And I would

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Speaker 1: just just say this, they're assholes and every line of work,

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Speaker 1: and they're assholes in every pursuit. Their asshole golfers that

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Speaker 1: cheat um, their asshole hunters that poach and break the law. Um.

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Speaker 1: The difference in golf is you're probably not hurting anybody.

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Speaker 1: You might be stealing somebody's money, um, in a gameling situation,

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Speaker 1: but you're probably not hurting anybody by you know, doing

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Speaker 1: a Donald Trump picking your ball up and throwing it

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Speaker 1: toward the green. Nobody's looking, So you're not hurting anybody.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, you are. You're doing damage to

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Speaker 1: to everyone around you in in and of the fact

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Speaker 1: that you're um breaking the law. But also, you know,

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Speaker 1: as Zack said, they're disrespecting what we all do and

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Speaker 1: what we've collectively determined to be a valuable part of

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Speaker 1: our lives. And then also you have the part for

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Speaker 1: wildlife management conservation that gets big into that. But here's

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Speaker 1: the other deal, Phil, Let's just be honest for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Social pressures, most people. Illegality is based on for a

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Speaker 1: lot of really good folks that get into really dumb situations,

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Speaker 1: it's based on social pressures. Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're you're right, It doesn't. The thing is, like,

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Speaker 1: I totally get being in those social pressure situations when

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Speaker 1: you're younger, like when you're in high school or in college.

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Speaker 1: Your hell, I mean, I'll I'll even give you like

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Speaker 1: mid to late twenties, but I mean like it's a

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Speaker 1: point you realize what kind of a person you are

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Speaker 1: and what you want to be and you just stop

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Speaker 1: hanging out with those people. Uh. That's yeah, dude, That's

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Speaker 1: where I'm at. Man. So it's like like, I mean, sorry, man,

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Speaker 1: but if this guy is like still your friend and

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Speaker 1: you're still hanging out with and like I know you

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Speaker 1: said that you've expolitely excused yourself from the huntset might

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Speaker 1: become illegal. But it's just like I I it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's tough, man. Like you get to an age year

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Speaker 1: old enough and you just gotta make big boy decisions.

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Speaker 1: And he's he's cut these people out of your life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yea. As always, Phil brings the heat um And

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Speaker 1: you're right, man, You're absolutely right. You know you gotta

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Speaker 1: make Zac in this case has to make a decision

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Speaker 1: um to put himself in a situation where he's never

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Speaker 1: going to be influenced in that way. Uh. And that's

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Speaker 1: I've had I I will personally, I'm not gonna name

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Speaker 1: names or get into this, But I've had situations within

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Speaker 1: the hunting industry where I felt like that's something I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna do again, um and and excused myself from

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Speaker 1: that situation and in some cases cut that person out

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Speaker 1: of my life where I felt like it wasn't good

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Speaker 1: it um. And so that's what you gotta do, I think, UM,

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Speaker 1: often people would respect you more if you do that.

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Speaker 1: You know people would would find a way too. You know,

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Speaker 1: have some self awareness. But if you just don't think

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Speaker 1: your roommate's gonna do that, you may not just waste

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Speaker 1: your time and just remove yourself from the situation UM

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Speaker 1: and move on. But again, if you're a party to

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Speaker 1: something illegal, you also have the you know, you also

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Speaker 1: probably have the responsibility to call it in UM if

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Speaker 1: it's continuing, and you may save someone's life. I mean

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Speaker 1: we had we talked about last week at death in

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Speaker 1: the in the duck line with remind of vented tozie

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Speaker 1: I I feel we could probably just dropped out of

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Speaker 1: what you said last time. Man, remove yourself from the

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Speaker 1: damn situation and UM, continue to be a positive influence.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you are, so we'll move on from that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as we go into the year of

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Speaker 1: the New Hunter here, and we talk about emergent hunters

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Speaker 1: as we go forward. This is something that everybody may

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Speaker 1: have to deal with, and it's certainly easier to deal

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Speaker 1: with if you are a new hunter. If you're an

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Speaker 1: emergent hunter, you're an adult. You know, you can make

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Speaker 1: those decisions, as Phil just said, And it's a lot

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Speaker 1: different if you're a ten year old boy and some

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Speaker 1: some of this stuff is going on and this is

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Speaker 1: the culture of your family, you're the culture you're growing

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Speaker 1: up and man, you just go along um and almost

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Speaker 1: every situation. So this is something that I think emergent

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Speaker 1: hunters are going to deal with more and are more

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Speaker 1: equipped to deal with obviously, um and something that as

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Speaker 1: you as folks crack into the hunting world, if they

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Speaker 1: see that, they're going to have to deal with it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so it's good. I appreciate you're putting it out there, Zack,

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Speaker 1: and so we can talk about it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Anything else, Phil, you want to drop us just drop

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Speaker 1: a knowledge bomb at the end of this, really walk away,

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Speaker 1: because because stands of this ship. Uh Nope, no, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's that's the that's the most authentic Costanza

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Speaker 1: moment is blowing it at the end. Yeah no, I'm nope, perfect,

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Speaker 1: all right, all right, Now we're gonna get into what

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Speaker 1: we want to talk about today and and there's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot that goes into what we're talking about with

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Speaker 1: Miles and all day. But first I want to read

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Speaker 1: an email from Russell Edwards, Victoria, Australia, one of our

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Speaker 1: many Asse's and New Zealanders that listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: shout out that you guys, we love you. He guys

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Speaker 1: always are are seemed to be the most opinionated and

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Speaker 1: the most well educated on wildlife issues. Maybe because it's

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Speaker 1: where you live, or maybe it's because you're all badasses.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but thanks for listening. Uh. Russell said,

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Speaker 1: where I come from and Victoria, Australia, we literally have

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Speaker 1: protesters on the marshes during duck season. He said, it's fucked.

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Speaker 1: I don't and by the way, you know on the

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Speaker 1: on the term fuck phil. Uh. Have you watched the

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Speaker 1: Netflix documentary The History of Curse Words? I haven't know.

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Speaker 1: How is it? It's fantastic. Nicholas Cage is the host

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Speaker 1: of it. It features many uh my favorite comedians, it's

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Speaker 1: just fantastic. They just I just watched the one last

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Speaker 1: night on the term fuck, the history of the term

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Speaker 1: fuck and the relevancy of the term fuck, and it

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Speaker 1: only emboldened me more to include it in this podcast wherever,

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Speaker 1: not wherever I can, but I need to probably get

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Speaker 1: be a little bit more tactile in the way that

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Speaker 1: I use the term. But it the celebration of the

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Speaker 1: word just embolded me a little bit more so anybody

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Speaker 1: that ever wrote in and said, hey, stop cussing, it's

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Speaker 1: not looking good for you. Truck to restruct all right,

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Speaker 1: Russell said. He said, I don't think it's a case

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Speaker 1: of a slippery slope fallacy, and I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: some quote unquote middle ground that is occupied by less

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Speaker 1: controversial honey methods. I think these hard nosed campaigners look

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Speaker 1: for what is the most alien seeming practice and they

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Speaker 1: target that one in the hope of recruiting the most

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Speaker 1: number of people, even KFC munchers, to their cause. It

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Speaker 1: is a form of culturalszenophobia. It may even be the

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Speaker 1: case there's no grand conspiracy and may be simple a

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Speaker 1: process of blind selection. People get upset about all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things, but the ones who most successfully provoke a

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Speaker 1: xenophobic reaction are the ones who build a movement. I

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Speaker 1: fully stand with our buddy Clay Nucom and his guard

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Speaker 1: the gate mentality. In fact, my concern was one of

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Speaker 1: the factors leading me to take up duck hunting after

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Speaker 1: many years of deer hunting. Duck hunting is the pin

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Speaker 1: up anti campaign here, mainly because they are the only

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Speaker 1: non fish native game species, because apparently fish don't have

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Speaker 1: feelings and foreign animals should be exterminated, although preferably by

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Speaker 1: professionals who don't enjoy it. But yes, we have hound

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Speaker 1: hunting for deer here, and those guys will absolutely be

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Speaker 1: next in the firing line. Ever since your interview with

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Speaker 1: fellow Victorian Paul the sheer Ben, I've been struggling to

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Speaker 1: be patient with these people. They are, by and large,

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Speaker 1: so fucking dumb Russell Edwards, So this leads me into

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Speaker 1: lots of things. Certainly leads me into our a little

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Speaker 1: bit of our conversation with Miles today. But um Man,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Oh, we're We're definitely gonna take a

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Speaker 1: different tech than Russell. And in this case, I don't

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Speaker 1: think all these people are dumb misguided surely. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: activism can can become a lot of things. Um, So

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Speaker 1: I'm sad to see that there are people protesting your

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Speaker 1: duck hunt in the marshes before it win your head. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've never experienced that, but you know, if I was

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Speaker 1: bear hunting New Jersey, I probably would. So we've seen

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Speaker 1: that in this country as well. But part of what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today is this idea of hate based media.

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Speaker 1: And I and as I said earlier, Phil, this is

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit self indulged for me. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of things we want to talk about this year

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Speaker 1: with new hunting and and trying to bring people along,

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Speaker 1: but I think this, this, this applies to that topic

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Speaker 1: and and the this is the idea that are the

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Speaker 1: the national media, most types of media, social media. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the communication of this country is based on

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Speaker 1: hatred and division, uh and is based on a lot

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Speaker 1: of what Russell just mentioned here in terms of cultural xenophobia.

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Speaker 1: He mentions people get upset about all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: he wrote in there, but the ones who most successfully

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Speaker 1: provoke a reaction are the ones who build a movement.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about that before on this show. In terms

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Speaker 1: of making fun of the term cult. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: that in terms of approaching vegans and anti hunters with

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Speaker 1: an open mind and open arms at some level, but

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Speaker 1: then objectively taking in their information and trying to suss

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Speaker 1: out what's really going on. We've talked about that. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's the value proposition of this show as we've as

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Speaker 1: we've gone along, it's I think it's something we certainly

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Speaker 1: need to dig into. Miles and I were able to

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Speaker 1: to unearth some examples. We felt like we're very relevant

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Speaker 1: in in this in our hunting and fishing culture, and

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Speaker 1: I think when you hear from some of the listeners

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Speaker 1: this show, some of the New Hunters people are still

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Speaker 1: struggling with the ways to approach um the cultural division

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Speaker 1: even within our own our own pursuits so important conversation.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have it right now with Miles Nold, Tay

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Speaker 1: Myles Nte. What's up man, Happy to be here, brother,

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Speaker 1: happy to be here, as always, Happy to have you

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Speaker 1: as always. Um, we need to hear a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the podcast, how it's going bent. We haven't really

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Speaker 1: talked about it that much on this show. I know

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Speaker 1: we did when it it launched, and we've been advertising

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Speaker 1: in and pushing it. How is media just first ever

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Speaker 1: fishing only podcast. I mean, I'm a pretty biased source. Uh,

425
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 1: I think I think it's great. Um, but I will

426
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: I think I can be an honest critic of my

427
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: own work. I think it took us a couple of

428
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: months to really find our stride with the show, and

429
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: I think I think the first few months were good,

430
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: but I think what we're doing now is much better,

431
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: and we just got a better rhythm and we're flowing in.

432
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: Like we've said before, we're trying to give a good

433
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: balance of valid information, interesting stories, and humor. And one

434
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: thing that we definitely don't do is take ourselves too

435
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: seriously because there's way too much of that going on, uh,

436
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: in outdoor media in general and fishing media specifically, So

437
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: we don't we don't do that. Yeah, you guys, I

438
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: mean fishing is fun on your show. It's not always

439
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: fun other places. Sometimes it's boring. And now I'm not

440
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: looking at you, Bill Dance God, No Bills never boring.

441
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: Bill is the man. But yeah, it's you know, when

442
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: you take a bit of a chance to put out

443
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: something like you guys have, and if you haven't heard it,

444
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: Go listen to it. You'll know what You'll immediately know

445
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 1: what I mean by this. You know, take a little

446
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: bit of chance to do something different and follow your

447
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: own you know, sensibilities and personalities of you and Joe Surmalley.

448
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it might it might be

449
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: a home run right off the bat, or it might

450
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: take some time. So I'm glad that the old meat

451
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: eaters are given you time talking too much. You want

452
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 1: to talk about man me too, And I think, uh,

453
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: I think one of the pieces that show that that folks.

454
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: You know, in addition to some of the stupid humor

455
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: that we do, which is there, uh, there are some

456
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: significant bits to chew on as well. We do a

457
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: fish news every week where we really dig into anything

458
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: fish related in the news and try and chop it

459
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: up and and have some analysis of it which will

460
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: tie into to what we're about to talk about. And uh,

461
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: and you know, it's is a mixture of high low

462
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: We have like really dumb poop jokes and then we

463
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: have book reviews of like elevated Hemmingway literature. Like we

464
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: we try and hit all the angles, sounds familiar. We

465
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: have you know, like when I first started this show,

466
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't think it through that thoroughly. Um,

467
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: to be honest, I was just copying Steve and Allen,

468
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, you know, And I feel like there was

469
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people in our space that just that's

470
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: what podcasts were, because that's what had vaulted to the

471
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: kind of the top of the heap at that time. Um,

472
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, just casual or at least pointed conversations that

473
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: that could go any direction. They're very organic in nature,

474
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: and that's what I think all of us kind of

475
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: started with. And what's cool about about Bent and some

476
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: of the other shows that we're working on a meat

477
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: Eater is that we're you know, we're starting to turn

478
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: from that a bit now that now that that's saturated

479
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: our space. Yeah, I mean there there's just not that

480
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: much room for Steven Ronella's and Joe Rogan's in the world.

481
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: And there are very many of them. So if you're

482
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: trying to beat those guys at their game, you're gonna lose.

483
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: You gotta do your own thing, man, Yeah, for sure.

484
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: And like I said, I mean, it's it's there's a

485
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: space podcast that are maturing into a big damn business now,

486
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: you know, all these these big carriers are jumping in

487
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: and turning it into something that it wasn't even five

488
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: years ago. UM. And so who knows where the next

489
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: five years will go. But any we're not here to

490
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: talk about all that. Listen to Ben, if you had

491
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: any dumbasses, get on it, get on it right now now.

492
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: Like when I think you were the first person, Well

493
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: let me start this way. It's probably better start this way.

494
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: I didn't you know, as we talked about last week

495
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: in the show, we want to focus a lot on

496
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: new hunters and and teaching people and learning from folks

497
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: that are new to our pursuits this year. Um. And

498
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about, you know, kind of

499
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: the tenor of the moment, you know, some what was

500
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: going on in the country last week, but we didn't

501
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: touch on it directly. UM. And I think Miles, I

502
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: think you were the first person to that I talked

503
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: to this about because we were on the phone about

504
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: something work related and it was like wait, wait, wait, wait,

505
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: turn on the TV. Uh, there's there is there is

506
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 1: an event going on, something is happening. And and then

507
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: we both you know, proceeded to watch in horror, uh,

508
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and what unfolded right and I'm you know, to break

509
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: down that what actually happened there is not for a

510
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: podcast like this, but what we are, what we you

511
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: and I do for a living, and what we're very

512
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 1: invested in is is the role of media in all

513
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: of this and the role of people who have opinions

514
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: and are people that are journalists and report the news

515
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: and how those cross sections affect us all. And I know,

516
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: and the reason I wanted to have you on just

517
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: kind of talk about this because I know you're invested in,

518
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: you know, the role of politics in you know, what

519
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: we do and enthusiast spaces like hunting and fishing, but

520
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: also how we think about critical issues and how we're

521
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: able to objectively seek truth and how we're able to

522
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: reason things out in a way that's healthy for all

523
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: of us, you know. And you and I don't always

524
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: agree on everything, but we're able to have conversations that

525
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: are respectful, um and seem to go somewhere, you know,

526
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: look and learn from each other. I think that's you know,

527
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: that's part of the reason why I was I was

528
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: excited to have this conversation with you because you know,

529
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: just just as buddies. We talk about things all the time,

530
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: and the tone and tenor of those conversations is so

531
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: much different than the way I see debate or disagreement

532
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: reflected back almost anywhere in a public or media based space.

533
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: Right Like you and I disagree on a lot of

534
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: things politically, but through through talking that stuff out, we're

535
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: never we're never attacking one another, we're never trying to

536
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: undermine each other in a in a personal way. And

537
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: I usually end up learning something from that or coming

538
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: to at least be able to recognize a different perspective

539
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: that I hadn't seen before, whether I end up agreeing

540
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: with it or not. And it's it's hard to try

541
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: to overstate the value of that, right, it really is.

542
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: It really is like a foundational respect for the for

543
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: someone else's humanity, you know. And they're right and privilege

544
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: to have to develop opinions in the way that they

545
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: do from their own life experiences and perspectives. You know.

546
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: We we we're at this position right now where a

547
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people

548
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: are shutting themselves off from you know, from differing perspectives.

549
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: And and look, I know this sounds like overblown and

550
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: maybe a little megalomaniacal, but like the part of the

551
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: reason why I wanted to get into and why I

552
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 1: believe in outdoor media is I feel like it has

553
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: the possibility to be one of those few areas where

554
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: people who disagree about just on just about everything else

555
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: can find some common ground. Like we care about outdoor spaces,

556
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: we care about access to healthy lands and waters, we

557
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: care about our ability to maintain the cultures that are

558
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: so important to us. Like let's set everything else aside.

559
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 1: Let's let's just say we we hold those few things together.

560
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: And that's that's certainly idealistic, it's not always true, but

561
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that I love or want

562
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: to love about the media that we get to create

563
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: is that I can bring in and speak to people

564
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: with whom I made disagree completely politically, but at least

565
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: we got these spaces so we can still talk to

566
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: one another. Yeah, And that's one of the first questions.

567
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: And and I want to get into kind of what

568
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: really spurred this on. It was a Matt Taiebi article.

569
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: But we'll quote Matt a little bit here, but that

570
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: that is a good point, you know, starting from and

571
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: I often we often do this on the show, like

572
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: we even with animal rights activists and even with vegans

573
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: and people that were supposed to not agree with we,

574
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: we do start from a similar value proposition with wildlife,

575
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: like I appreciate wildlife, I want them around. Someone who's

576
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: an animal rights activists definitely, definitely and very tangibly says

577
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: that they appreciate wildlife and one them around. We just

578
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: have different tactics to get to that end result in

579
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: management and and the way that we wrap our heads around,

580
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, essentially cohabitation. So even in those conversations, I

581
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: realized a shared set of values, and in the broader

582
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: political conversation, and certainly in the way that the media

583
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: is set up now, people are losing that starting point.

584
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: They're losing this idea that we are there. Way, there's

585
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: so much we agree on. Let's start from there and

586
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: then we can work to where you know, respectfully we

587
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: disagree on something that that that respectfully word is a

588
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: hard one right now, But yeah, nope, I agree. So

589
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: I sent you a link to this article and and

590
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: I and to be quite honest with everyone listening, I

591
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: don't know how to address something like the Capitol riots.

592
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 1: I don't even really know what to call them. And

593
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: because there's so many weighted words and so much semantics

594
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 1: at play and how we present these and we'll discuss

595
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: that here in a minute. But I don't even I

596
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: don't know how how to address that. It's so waited

597
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: for me. I haven't had enough time to process it.

598
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: I can only say that it was a disgusting act

599
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: that I hope we never see again in American history.

600
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: I hope it is. It is something that we all

601
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: learned from and we don't repeat. Um. But again, um,

602
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: what we're about to talk about it, and in terms

603
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: of our news media has me thinking that we might

604
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: be doomed to repeat it again in some form in

605
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: a very short short time from right now. And so

606
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: mine as well talk about it, might as well crack

607
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: open some of the how the media plays a role

608
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: in this, because they play, in my opinion, quite a

609
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: huge role. So there's a and and let's be fair,

610
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: we can't say they when we talk about the media,

611
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: because even if we want to wall ourselves off into

612
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: outdoor media, we're still media man. So we have to

613
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: recognize that we we have some responsibility to own for sure.

614
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: For sure. Um yeah, and that that's the fact that

615
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: anyone who's listening to us talking means that we have

616
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: a chance to contribute to what's wrong or or be

617
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: agent for change at some level. Um, if you go,

618
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, there's a website called sub stack dot com

619
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: that hosts a lot of independent journalists and a lot

620
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: of independent voices, and one of those voices is Matt Taieb.

621
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: Um you have a lot of experience with Taieb. I don't.

622
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: Actually I will. I will admit that this this article

623
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: you sent me was my foray into his writing and

624
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: his thinking. And uh, I am, I'm I'm intrigued. I'm

625
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: gonna check out more. He He is one of my favorites. Um.

626
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: He you know, the way he breaks down the way

627
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: he breaks down the media number one is huge. But

628
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: just the way he understands culture and in his bend

629
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: toward investigative journalism and objectivity is something that obviously is

630
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: rare uh in this space. And so you know, if

631
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: if you haven't read Matt Sabby, read him. I'm not

632
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: saying you have to be as in love with him

633
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: as I am, but certainly check him out and make

634
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: that choice. Sit around. But he wrote an article called

635
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: we Need a New Media System, Um, and this the

636
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: header here is if you sell culture war all day,

637
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: don't be surprised by the real world consequences. We're gonna present,

638
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: We're gonna reverse engineering this article. We'll present the ending

639
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: paradox and kind of work our way through what's going on.

640
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: But something I've been been calling to tie you, it's

641
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: I'll just call it. We'll call it for this for

642
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: this example, that Tye be adox and what he says

643
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: at the end of this article entitled we need a

644
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: New Media has what we've been watching for four years

645
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: and in this in this case he's talking about the

646
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: Trump presidency and what we saw explode last week. And

647
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: in that case, the capital riots is a paradox, a

648
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: political and informational system that profits from division and conflict

649
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: and uses a factory style process to stimulate it. But

650
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: Professor's shock and horror when real conflict happens, it's time

651
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: to admit this is a failed system. You can't sell

652
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: hatred and seriously expect it to end. Um, what's your

653
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: action to that? I mean, so my my reaction to

654
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: that is that it's it's spot on the I think

655
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: that the key words in that our profit and sell. Yeah,

656
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: as we as we dig into this conversation, those are

657
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: the two two concepts I want to I want to

658
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: keep to the four because I think they're very important

659
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: as we sort of untangle all of this. Yeah, And

660
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: I think a key to the you know, the way

661
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: that why we're talking about this kind of like the

662
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: way that I want to look at it is what

663
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: is the media's role overall? But then what's what's our

664
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: role in the media for for niche spaces like hunting

665
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: and fishing. Um, we have definitely And what Taibi is

666
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: saying here in many ways is that the media has

667
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: taken polarization and sold it in polar Polarization is often

668
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: coupled with the flaming of hatred, you know, flaming the

669
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: fanning the flames of hatred, is what I'm trying to say, Um,

670
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: And and that has affected how we reason and our

671
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: collective ability to seek truth and find objective truth. And

672
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: we're stuck with a very toxic way of looking at

673
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: the world. And that's a narrative base way of thinking

674
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: and a ship ton of confer confirmation bias. Um. Not

675
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: only in politics, but in our own lives. I mean,

676
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: I I totally agree with you there, I got I

677
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: gotta say to you things. One I I'm skeptical of

678
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: the way the concept of getting away from narrative, right,

679
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: because I think no matter even in the most quote

680
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: unquote objective sense, the way that we organize information of

681
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: of like what causes what is a narrative? Yeah, it's

682
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: the wrong term. Like, I don't know that we get

683
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: away from narrative. It's just that we need to to

684
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: think about narrative and less polarizing ways. Sure, Yeah that

685
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, Well, it's just kind of like the

686
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: weaponizing of narrative. You know, it would be it would

687
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: be the issue. And and an example of that, obviously

688
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: is if if you're told something, and in the case

689
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: of the Capital riots, if you're told you know, there's

690
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: a fraudent election and one side is stealing this election

691
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: from another, You're gonna be looking around and trying to

692
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: confirm that bias. You're gonna be trying to you know,

693
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: if you if you're told you that you believe in

694
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: this so fervently, your your way of reasoning is going

695
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: to be based on that confirmation. Bias that you now

696
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: have that one thing is evil and one thing is good.

697
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: And and often say that you you know, to create

698
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: a movement, you do not need a god, but you

699
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: do need a devil. And and certainly we are creating

700
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: devils out of each other. And you know, in in

701
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of our national conversation, and that I

702
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: mean that that really that that was well put. And

703
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: I think that, look, it's kind of basic human psychology

704
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: right there. There are things that work more quickly in

705
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: our brains than others. And by things I mean, I

706
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: mean narrative triggers, So fear and other emotional responses immediately

707
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: elicit a response like or a change in the way

708
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: we think about something, whereas something that's much more methodical

709
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: and based on you have to ration it out. That

710
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: takes time, and it takes effort. And if you're trying

711
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: to sell people a media product, the fastest way to

712
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: get them to consume it and really identify it and

713
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: go all in on it is to pull those emotional

714
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: strings and pull those levers and fears a real strong one. Yeah,

715
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: and this I mean We're gonna get to some other examples,

716
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: but this is something in my work and conservation what

717
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: I do sitting on the board for backlud raters and anglers,

718
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: and even even when I was employed at the n

719
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: r A National Rifle Association, you could see, you know,

720
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: I think one is a more stark example than the other,

721
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: but you can see this type of like you could

722
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: see the pool of this of creating you know what

723
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: we'll call the slippery slope here, which is creating a

724
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: battle for something. Public lands are under attack, your gun

725
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: rights are under attack. There's more fervent support for things

726
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: that are under attack, things that may go away. And

727
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: so are we creating these false narratives in our own

728
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: spaces about what happened might happen to our guns, what

729
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: might happen to our public land, and use in those

730
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: same mechanisms to incite support for the things that we

731
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: care about. And it means a lot to me to

732
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: be able to say I I do believe in gun rights.

733
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: I do believe in protecting the environment and access to

734
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: our public lands. But I'm not willing to travel down

735
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: the path of inciting or at least invoking some fear

736
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: and the people that have joined my organization just to

737
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: get the end result like that is it becomes a

738
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: toxic environment if he if it goes too far, And

739
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: that's kind of where that slippery slope comes in. It does.

740
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: And man, here's here's where I want to get into

741
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: to the to B B article you brought up, because he,

742
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately he goes through he lays an elegant,

743
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: elegant description of the problem. I give him a ton

744
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: of credit for the way that it's worded and the

745
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: way it's put together. I think he's spot on in

746
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: describing the problem. Um, you know, he he And then

747
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: but then he gets to the end where he tries

748
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: to to give a prescriptive solution. And this is where

749
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: it is problematic for me, because you know, he says,

750
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: media companies need to get out of the audience stroking

751
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: business and we need a new media channel, it press

752
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: version of the third party, where those financial pressures to

753
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: maintain audience are absent. Right, And that's great, but how

754
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: do we do that right? And and this is the

755
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: that's where I feel like it's a little bit of

756
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: a cop out because who's gonna who's gonna who's gonna

757
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: build that? And how is that going to be incentivized?

758
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: And this is gonna get a little heady, but I

759
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: think it's important to recognize that, like the granularity of

760
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: information that he's talking about, like that that ties into

761
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: the new landscape of targeted marketing. Right Like we're getting

762
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: customized news the same way that we're getting customized banner

763
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: ads every time we open the Internet. It's all in

764
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: the same algorithms. And and since that marketing that I'm

765
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: talking about right there is is what pays for the news,

766
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: I don't I don't get how there's a solution other

767
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: than some kind of a third party, like which would

768
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: have to be the government stepping in and creating this

769
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: new news channel, at which point we just have state

770
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: sponsored news. And that's not a solution either. So that's

771
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: where I run into a wall on this thing, man,

772
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: because I totally agree with him, and we live in

773
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: a free market system, and that free market extends to

774
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: our media, and right now the money is in that

775
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: micro targeting and by separating people whose tina little silos

776
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: and feeding them what they want to see. So how

777
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: do we get out of the attention economy? That's the

778
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: real question. I mean, the core of this is how

779
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: do we get out of the attention economy in the

780
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: way that it's the attention economy isn't the problem. The

781
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: way we weaponize the attention economy is the problem. Right, Like,

782
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to continue, you know, from the from

783
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: the printing press on the intention economy grew, it's only

784
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: become more sophisticated, right in the way that it's been

785
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: been targeted. But Taibi says, um, there's a couple of

786
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: other things that he says that will help us track this.

787
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: He says, uh. Specifically speaking speaking about news organizations mainstream,

788
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: he says, media firms work backwards. They first ask how

789
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 1: does our debt target demographic want to understand what's just unfolded.

790
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: Then they pick the words in the fact acts they

791
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: want to emphasize. Um, this is my favorite. This is

792
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: really one of my favorite analogies, he says. News companies

793
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: now clean world events like whalers, using every part of

794
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: the animal, funneling different facts to different consumers based upon

795
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: calculations about what will bring the biggest engagement kick the

796
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: microt caravan. Fox slices off comments from a Homeland Security

797
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: official describing most of the border crosses as single adults

798
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: coming for economic reasons. The New York Times counters by

799
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: running a story about how the caravan was deployed as

800
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: a political issue by the Trump White House, staring at

801
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: poor results in mid term elections. Certainly, um million more examples.

802
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: That's just the one he chose in that particular paragraph,

803
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: but there's a million more examples. But I think going

804
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: returning to kind of the tactic here is to look

805
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: at a is not to look at an event and

806
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: its totality and try to dissect it in a logical way.

807
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: It is to use the narrative that you've built and

808
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: then take parts of what's happened, you know, in this

809
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: case immigration, and apply it to the narrative that you've

810
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: already established with your audience, and the audience comes right along.

811
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think, I think you're absolutely right.

812
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: But I also think that the reality is that that's

813
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: what feeds people like we have now unfortunately proven that

814
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: what gets people riled up and gets them to really

815
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: have allegiance to a media brand and that allegiance then

816
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: translates into sales and effective marketing is that that picking

817
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: and that choosing and that feeding of what feels comfortable audiences.

818
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 1: And this this goes for all of us. We don't

819
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,479
Speaker 1: like to encounter what's uncomfortable. That's that's We're not gonna

820
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: keep coming back to a source that makes us feel uncomfortable.

821
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: If we can go somewhere else that makes us feel

822
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: warm and fuzzy and comfortable, that's exactly. Yeah. When I

823
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: made a post earlier this year, before I got off

824
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: Instagram altogether, that was making a joke about a dilapidated

825
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: falling over ability and where I was hunting in eastern

826
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: Montana with a Trump sign on. I thought, that's hilarious.

827
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, how analogous is this? Like, that's it's

828
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: just hilario is to me, the satire, It's like thick

829
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: this is, you know. And so I post this and

830
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: in two things happened that really lighted me up. One

831
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: people that I actually respected, who are fans of this show,

832
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: who right into our TC at the met eat or

833
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: inbox all the time we're in the comment threat saying

834
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: they would never listen to me again, right because because

835
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: they believe one thing or another. I thought, wow, you

836
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: know that is we're in such a heightened state right now,

837
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: and this is right before the election, so it's just

838
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: it's it's I would say, it's a different time, but

839
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: maybe not because people are storming the capital the see

840
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: the power in our in our country. But at the time,

841
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: what struck me as one how the polarization in the

842
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: comments section fueled the Instagram algorithm. I bet more people

843
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: saw that post because of the engagement quote unquote than

844
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: anything I posted ever about anything, because of the way

845
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: it made people feel and the fact that it fired

846
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: them up, and the fact that they were oralized on

847
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: that position. So it was like an illustration of social

848
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: media algorithms of what they do right, how they how

849
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: they kind of capitalize on that. And the other thing

850
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 1: I told people in that of all the people who said,

851
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm I'm un following you, I don't want to see this,

852
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: I said, if if you are made uncomfortable to your

853
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: your the point you just made, if you are made

854
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 1: uncomfortable by by points of view that are not your own,

855
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: please leave. Now see yourself out like this is this space,

856
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: this podcast, and the other things that we mentioned here

857
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: in the people that we promote, hopefully are not going

858
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: to be engaging in this kind of bubble think, this

859
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: kind of creation of ideological corners. Um it's just boring

860
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: to me, boring. It's I mean, I would say it

861
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: goes beyond boring to be like, you know, massively problematic.

862
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right. And the idea, the ideal. One

863
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: of the things I like about what you do and

864
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: I really respect about your show is that is your

865
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: idea that like, look, we're we're primarily this this podcast

866
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: that covers topics interesting to hunters and people who enjoy

867
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: wild spaces. Uh, And therefore that gives me the opportunity

868
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: to kind of chop up all these other things because

869
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to get people who disagree on those other

870
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 1: things into the same space at the same time. Right.

871
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: So theoretically that should be an opportunity to be like, look,

872
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: you gotta you have to see all these all these

873
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: different ideas. You have to be confronted with them. And

874
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: if the reaction is wait, I think you might be

875
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: on the other side. So I'm out. I don't know

876
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: where we go from there. Yeah, there's nowhere to go

877
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: from there because you're now to the point where you

878
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: can't you have such and this this goes back to

879
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: Taibi's point, where we've hate incorporated and we've we've so

880
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: commoditized hate. That that's what people feel when they when

881
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: they see ideas, even ideas, even it's the suggestion of

882
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: idea that's the antithesis of what they've come to believe

883
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: for the narrative that they've painted for themselves. It's not

884
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: that when when when that narrative comes about that you say, mmmm,

885
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: well I don't agree with that. Let me break down

886
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: why that person thinks that I respect them, I trust

887
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: that that they're not a bad person. Let me figure

888
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: out what how they got to where they are, and

889
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 1: and and along the way, hope to become a better

890
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: person myself, and to be educated by how they got

891
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: to being an anti gunner or an anti hunter, or

892
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: an animal rights activist or whatever they are. And then

893
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,919
Speaker 1: when I go back to defend the thing I'm really

894
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: passionate about, I now have more ammo in the gun

895
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: I am because I have looked at the dogma in

896
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: my own space, Because I've examined my own preconceived notion

897
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: of what's true, I can now objectively say I'm doing better,

898
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: like I have a more like, a healthier, a healthier

899
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: view of why someone might not want to do what

900
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: I do or might think what I do is awful. Yeah,

901
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think I think a particular and

902
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: I think it's helpful for us to work off of

903
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: like specific in person all examples with this, right, because

904
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: as you start to spread it out globally, it gets

905
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: really muddy and and then you're just painting people with

906
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: a really broad brush, which is part of the reason

907
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: why we're here. So like, let's let's look at a

908
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: specific example. I remember once ago you put something up,

909
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: uh somewhere. It might have even been that same post

910
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: where you you said, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna

911
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: vote for Trump. That's what what I think I'm gonna do.

912
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,919
Speaker 1: And I picked up the phone and I called you.

913
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: Do you remember this because because personally, and I will

914
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: admit this, that was not a that that was not

915
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: a choice that I was comfortable making. That you weren't

916
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: the only one that got got a phone call. I'm

917
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: sure you did, man, And and I I what I

918
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: I didn't call you, if you if you remember, I

919
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: didn't call you to be like what the funk? Man?

920
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: That was not the way that that conversation went. What

921
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: I called you, and I think what I remember saying

922
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: was help me understand what what What's what's your logic here?

923
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: Because I really were expect the way you think. And

924
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: I know we don't agree on a lot of things,

925
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: but but this is one that I don't understand. Please

926
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: help me understand it. Yeah. The other thing that that

927
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: that bothered me about that and this this happens across

928
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: the board, is that it's it's somehow takes people see

929
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: it as courage. I even I know it to be

930
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 1: courage because you you do have something on the line

931
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: when you say I'm going to vote for X. In

932
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: the public sphere, because cancel culture being what it is,

933
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: audience support being what being needed to do what we

934
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: do UM, some level of reputation, and for honesty and

935
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: respect and integrity being needed to do what we do. UM.

936
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: All of that is at risk if you say who

937
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: you voted for, or you say what your religious beliefs are,

938
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: or if you or if you say what your sexual

939
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: orientation is, or if you say, UM, any of the

940
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: really important foundational things about you. UM, you're at risk

941
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: of alienating some percentage of your audience because of hate incorporated,

942
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: because of people are being trained to hate the other. UM.

943
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: But in the case of that maybe get the strength

944
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: way far from from the point where where so I actually,

945
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: I actually don't think it is. Let me, let me

946
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: try and tie it together for you, because as people

947
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: who work in media, we have that pressure. And part

948
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: of the way that we survive, the way that we

949
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: get to keep our jobs is by having enough people

950
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: like us, right, and if if we step outside of

951
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: the space of what we think our audience wants to

952
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: hear and announce something that could be challenging or problematic,

953
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 1: we were literally risking our livelihoods. So I will agree

954
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: that that was a brave move that you pulled there

955
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: um too, that I after and after no influence by

956
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: by you other than just talking it through with me,

957
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: I voted for Biden. Like I got to the I

958
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: mean and and people were people in my family were questioning, like,

959
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: how could you be so wishy washy, And I said,

960
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 1: it's a hard decision for me. It was a hard

961
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: decision for me because I care about so many things passionately.

962
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: And I got to the voting booth very nervously, stood there,

963
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: looked around, I went for the you know, put the

964
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: pen towards the Trump bubble and took my pen back

965
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: and then I thought, hmm, I can't vote for I

966
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: can't vote for this guy. Just can't do it. And

967
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: then I bubbled in. I thought about writing in someone

968
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: I really wanted to be present. I thought, now that's

969
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: a waste, and so I circled Biden, like I don't

970
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: you know? And then I held my breath, thinking did

971
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: I make the wrong choice? Um? And so the fact

972
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: that I was struggling with that and very and I

973
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: would very honestly tell anyone I struggled with it. And

974
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: I'm not a Zealott for Trump or a Zellott for Biden, um,

975
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: somebody who was confused and but also knew this was

976
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: a very important vote and also knew this was something

977
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: that I had to think about and do right. And

978
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: and I have kids, and I thought about them, and

979
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: I thought, what am I gonna prioritize for my children

980
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: in the society I want them to step into. And

981
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: it was tough, man, it was really tough, um, and so,

982
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: and I don't know in their polarized times that there's

983
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: room for it to be tough, like let's just let's

984
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: just throw throw this out this way, and and and

985
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: to contextualize what we're talking about to bring it back

986
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: to where we started. If you and I happened to

987
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: be working in a different media, let's let's let's use

988
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: Fox News for example, and maybe maybe you had a

989
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: similar difficulty in in in the decision that you were

990
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: faced with. If you actually had to recognize that this

991
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: is not a simple decision, wow, and you made that public,

992
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: you would lose your job. I think that's right. New

993
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: York Times be the same way, exactly used that exactly. Yeah.

994
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: What but if it were the other way around the

995
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: and you you you wrote for or you worked at MSNBC,

996
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: you'd be you'd be painted into the same corner. Yeah, yeah,

997
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: it's it is. I mean there's a line in in

998
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: this in terms of Trump in the Tybee article everyone

999
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: monetized Trump and when he when he said that, I

1000
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: I just I was like, that's one of the more

1001
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 1: poignant lines that it is. I can think of everyone

1002
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: monetized Trump, they monetized hatred of Trump or love of Trump,

1003
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: but every you know, both sides dove in head first

1004
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: two this polarizing character because it fit into this hate

1005
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: incorporated way of making money. You know, either hate him

1006
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: or hate him or love him as long as you

1007
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: do it intensely, we can make money off you. You know,

1008
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 1: as long as you feel strongly about it, we're good

1009
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: to go. You'll keep watching. Um. And that's dangerous, man.

1010
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: It's like it's just a dangerous premise all the way

1011
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 1: around for all of us. Um. Again, Like, I think

1012
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: I could not agree with that what that article's premise

1013
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: was more and I think I think he said it

1014
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: more eloquently than that I've read it elsewhere. Um, I'm

1015
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: just stuck on within the constraints of how our consumerist

1016
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: media works. Like, I don't know how you break that. Yeah,

1017
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: I don't know how to break it either. I mean

1018
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: it really, you know, his suggestion hints at something. But again,

1019
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to be trite and bringing up Joe Rogan.

1020
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: But here's a guy who, uh really doesn't do anything

1021
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: unless he wants to do it. He's not owned by

1022
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: any media company, he's he doesn't have any agenda that

1023
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: I know of knowing him and haven't been on that

1024
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: show a couple of times. He doesn't have any agenda

1025
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: other his own curiosity and his own need to seek

1026
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: out things that he is interested in and are relevant

1027
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: to him and staying true to that has allowed him

1028
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: to grow that that show into some astronomical m heights

1029
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: in terms of how many people listen. So that's that's

1030
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: one example. He is one example I think of of

1031
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: someone who's been kind of outside the fray in terms

1032
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: of big media and the corporate interests and some of

1033
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: the political interests and things like that. But he's still

1034
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: not I mean, he's still in it at some level.

1035
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: I mean, he's not immune to it. But maybe you know,

1036
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: maybe a shining light of an individual who kept it small,

1037
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: kept it uh real and original and tried to present

1038
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: information on his own bend. But certainly not a journalist,

1039
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: not an expert. And that's that's the problem there, right, Like,

1040
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 1: as someone who who does have kind of a journalistic background,

1041
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: that that's where I run into a problem with that

1042
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: because he's not trying to report any news, and and

1043
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: the other thing like it's tough to draw too many

1044
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: conclusions from a sample size of one. Yes, yeah, that

1045
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: would be the other place that I stumble with that one.

1046
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: Those are the but and he is the exception, right,

1047
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: And you I've seen a lot of people and heard

1048
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people on his show, Marvel at his

1049
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: ability to stay out of the corporate cycle, to stay

1050
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: out of the investment cycle, or to you know, not

1051
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 1: get bought up by UM something that would influence the content,

1052
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: and people marvel at that because that's the way it works, UM.

1053
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: And to your point, I don't know how you change

1054
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: that UM going forward. But Taibi goes on to to quote, uh,

1055
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell. He said, uh, he says, in reference to

1056
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 1: what we've talked about earlier, to repeat this info sifting

1057
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: process a few billions times. And this is how we became,

1058
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: as none other than Mitch McConnell put it last week,

1059
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: a country that quote is drifting apart into two separate tribes,

1060
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: with a separate set of facts and separate realities, with

1061
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: nothing in common except our hostility towards each other and

1062
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 1: mistrust for the few national institutions that we all still share. UM.

1063
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: That's pretty well well put, Mitch. Um. The last part

1064
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: is what got me mistrust of the few institutions that

1065
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: we still share, UM, and into two reverse course to

1066
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: your point earlier, Miles, when we get into kind of

1067
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: an enthusiast space, like we're in everybody listens podcasts, we're

1068
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: assuming everyone listens podcast shares a value system around hunting,

1069
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: and even more shares like a specific value system that

1070
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: we discussed here quite often, right, a value system that

1071
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: got him in the door and is keeping them around. Um,

1072
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: there's probably a plenty of people that listen to this

1073
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: just to hate it. But I would hope that the

1074
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: balk of people are are learning together and sharing sharing

1075
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: the ideas that are presented on a show like this.

1076
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: But but back to the mistrust of the few national institutions.

1077
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell's right, you know, he's he's dead on And

1078
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: I don't usually like what Mitch McConnell has to say,

1079
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: but in this case, yeah, I made his his the

1080
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: statement there is accurate. I'll just I'm pretty over representative

1081
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: from both sides. I'm not pinning this to one side

1082
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: of the other, ratcheting up the the division against the

1083
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: other side and then turning around and screaming like this

1084
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: is exactly why we're also so against each other. Like,

1085
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 1: I don't think one day you can be fueling those

1086
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 1: fires and the next day being like, hold on, guys,

1087
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: we can't keep doing this. Like that's a good point, though,

1088
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: I listened to guys like Ben Shapiro and then like

1089
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: political talking heads, and this is what they do though

1090
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: they've become it's become such us versus them mentality that

1091
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: that we could play the paradox game. We could present

1092
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: all paradox like everything has become a paradox and also

1093
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: a parody of itself, you know, by like you are

1094
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: presenting a narrative based way of looking at the world,

1095
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: like you've you've decided on we are you know, the

1096
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: conservative republic republican ideals or in the case the liberal

1097
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: progressive ideals are the way forward. They're evil, we're good.

1098
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: And so every show is is just affirming that thing.

1099
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: Look at all the evil things that they did, Look

1100
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: at all the things they did wrong. Even if you're

1101
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: aware of some hypocrisy, you know that that you've also

1102
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: done this. And again we may start playing in a

1103
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: paradox game where we're just like watch the news and

1104
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: write down all all the things because it's but you know,

1105
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: the false equivalences and the way that people rationalize things

1106
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: now is and is in and us versus them paradox

1107
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: And if you do it's not bad. If they do

1108
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: what it is, and then they're just round and round

1109
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: and round we go propaganda one on one man, and

1110
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: that's what it is. And to to to bring this

1111
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: to to our own personal space, right because I'm sure

1112
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people out there right now

1113
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: are like, I don't really give a ship what these

1114
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: guys think about national politics. There I go to them

1115
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: for hunting and fishing, and valid totally get it. But

1116
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: the point I think I want to make is that

1117
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: we're we're we're borrowing some of these same techniques that

1118
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: we see in national media and we're applying them very

1119
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: successfully in our niche media. Um. I mean I see it.

1120
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: I see it in phishing media all the time. And

1121
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: and there are these relatively popular phishing meme accounts, and

1122
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: the way that they get big is by pitting different

1123
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, regional subsets or stylistic subsets of anglers against

1124
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: one another into these comment feuds. And it just kind

1125
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: of it just makes me sad, to be perfectly honest,

1126
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: And and I get it because their engagement on those

1127
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: posts is through the roof, right like if they and

1128
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: and I'll use an example, right, someone the one one

1129
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: of the ones that people love to do is to

1130
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,959
Speaker 1: get fire up the debate about whether or not Great

1131
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: Lakes steel head or actually steel head, and for context,

1132
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: steelhead or a Pacific Northwest fish they like go into

1133
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: the ocean, but they put steelhead in the Great Lakes,

1134
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: and now they migrate in and out of the out

1135
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: of the Great Lakes and the trips. And for some

1136
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: reason that this has created a fight, a semantic fight,

1137
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: like those aren't real steel head, they've never been to

1138
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: the ocean. No, screw you up at the left coasters

1139
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: and your real steel head, Like it's so dumb. But

1140
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: if you do a post that gets people on that topic,

1141
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: your comet section explodes, and and and your popularity increases,

1142
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: your visibility increases. They're leveraging that same tactic on a

1143
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: much smaller scale within our industry all the time, and

1144
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: and it just makes me sad. Yeah, and why wouldn't

1145
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: they draw from that playbook? Yeah, that is the playbook.

1146
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: That's what's been incentivized on social media, news media. You know,

1147
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: it's the painting of that broad brush. I mean, I

1148
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: could go all day in hunting. Um, I saw I

1149
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: had people. I'm off Instagram totally, So don't come try

1150
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: to say some message about the show or whatever. I'll

1151
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: get back on. I'm just taking a break. I'll get

1152
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,439
Speaker 1: back on UM, but I'm taking a break because it's

1153
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: just I don't like it. It's not fun for me.

1154
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 1: It's a terrible place. It's stupid, it's and it's also

1155
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: just it's not It's just a stupid place where people

1156
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: are manufacturing all types of false narratives and all types

1157
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: of false realities for everyone to either make fun of

1158
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: or celebrate. So but there, when you go there, you

1159
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: go anywhere UM at a larger scale like that, where

1160
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: conversation is happening. You know, hunters that hunt with a

1161
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: crossbow right versus vertical bow hunters, um, not only do

1162
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: not only do we have you know a bit of

1163
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: a debate about the efficacy and and and the wildlife

1164
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 1: management implications of a cross bow, both good and bad.

1165
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 1: And also you know new hunters coming in and being

1166
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: nobody's across bow. We don't just do that. What do

1167
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: we do? We start to characterize, oh and stereotype, Oh,

1168
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,919
Speaker 1: the guy with the crossbow, drinks mountain dew and eats

1169
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: Case's pizza, the guy with a vertical bow. Whereas Sitka

1170
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: and his elitist we're doing the same, college educated high

1171
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: school educated, rural urban discourse. We're pairing that discourse. All

1172
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: we're doing is applying it to the differences in our space.

1173
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: That's all we're doing. That's what you just describe with

1174
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: fishing exactly. And and and I could just like you know,

1175
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: we could. We could point to a ton of different

1176
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: ones in hunting. We can point to a ton of

1177
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: different ones and fishing. I think the point that we're

1178
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: trying to make is like we this this set of plays,

1179
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: this way of of having your media system function works

1180
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,919
Speaker 1: right now, but it has really terrible implications. And so look,

1181
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: I will I feel I'm a little concerned that I'm

1182
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: trying to paint myself as as holier than though, and

1183
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I'm above that. I don't really think

1184
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: about it that way, but I really do try and

1185
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: avoid getting in using leveraging that particular tactic in the

1186
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: media that I create, because I think it's it's it's lazy,

1187
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: and I think it's destructive. So well, but there's also

1188
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: shades of gray, you know, when it comes to like

1189
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: sometimes comedy, sometimes stereotypes make comedy work, Like oh, yeah,

1190
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: you know, we have you have segments on your show

1191
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: we do stuff all the time here where where we're

1192
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: clearly performing satire, where we're clearly just having fun with

1193
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: the way with the cultural differences from place to place,

1194
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: or we're from pursuit to pursuit or whatever. Um And

1195
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: and that's certainly is a part of who we are too.

1196
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: So there's shades of gray. And I'm not saying that.

1197
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: I look back on a lot of things I've done,

1198
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: and I'm certainly ten years when I if I ever

1199
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: come back and listen to some of the episodes of

1200
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: my podcast, I go, whoa the hell are you talking about? Man?

1201
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: I hope I do, because I hope I'm better then

1202
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: now that I am now, and then I am as

1203
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: I'm speaking to you right now. But um, I'm not

1204
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: saying I'm better than anybody. I'm saying these these are

1205
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 1: things that bother me and I hate it, and I

1206
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: want to surround myself with people that, you know, start

1207
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: at respect, and start at respecting the differences between us

1208
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: and go from there. Um. And when social media have

1209
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 1: a you know, really incentivizes that division, what are you

1210
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: gonna do? I mean, people are trained to get more engagement,

1211
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: to get more likes, to get more followers. That's the

1212
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: arcade game of social media. That's what it is. It

1213
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: is it is more points for whatever. You get more, Yeah,

1214
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: get more points, and then you get community status based

1215
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: on the number of points that you received, and then

1216
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: you become some character of yourself because there's no way

1217
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: to speak truth because all of it is every word

1218
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: typed into Instagram and the history of Instagram is meant

1219
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: to get attention in some way. Um. You're talking about

1220
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,479
Speaker 1: like you know, meme accounts or troll accounts on social media,

1221
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: they're doing the same thing. They're just they're just angling

1222
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 1: it towards towards hate or towards you know, as we say,

1223
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,919
Speaker 1: trolling or attacking people, um or citing differences. They're doing

1224
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: the same thing there. It's just the antithesis of of

1225
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 1: of you know, somebody like David Goggins or somebody that's

1226
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: trying to inspire people, um and put that value system

1227
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: out there for everybody. Like we're so cynical that anything

1228
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: that's not trying to be that like postmodern is is corny. Right,

1229
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: If you're trying to inspire people, or you're trying to

1230
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: be celebratory, or you're trying to be positive, you're you're

1231
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: so corny, nobody's gonna listen to you, Like you might

1232
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: as well just go sit in the corner with Grandpa already,

1233
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: because like no one's no one, no one's to hear

1234
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: that ship. And well, yeah, even in this piece, Taiebi

1235
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: goes on to say, like he when he first got

1236
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: in the business, he thought that, you know, by the book,

1237
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: journalists were boring people that were searching for objectivity and

1238
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: never having a hard and faster in and we're boring.

1239
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: And I think he's turned that on now he sees

1240
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: the danger in um the absence of that. But we

1241
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: were talking about this before. I I do think there again,

1242
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: there are a lot of broader examples of hunting and

1243
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: fishing that go to this, you know that that we

1244
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: could talk about. We're not gonna examine them, you know fully,

1245
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: and we didn't do a book report on these things.

1246
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: But I was writing down and shared with you a

1247
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: couple of things that I think show this UM. Number one,

1248
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just make a list of things. The

1249
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: green decoy push, like the website green about Green decoy,

1250
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: is the push to label anyone with environmentalist tendencies, including backhuntry, hunters, anglers,

1251
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: myself and others a green decoy. Um. Then you have

1252
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: folks like Ted Nugent and Donald Trump Jr. And the

1253
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: National Rifle Association. Um. Those folks, I think are examples

1254
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: of the cultural divide and folks that are fanning the

1255
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: flames of that cultural divide by playing some of the

1256
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: games that there's some of the psychological games that we

1257
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: have talked about earlier, and the taiebe brings up. Um.

1258
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 1: All of those are examples, I think, and we and

1259
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: and I think even people hearing me bring those things

1260
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: up an examples. They're probably ears perked up based on

1261
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: what they think about these these very polarizing individuals or organizations. UM.

1262
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: And that's okay, but we're not gonna shy away from

1263
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: talking about them. But one of the things that that

1264
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: came to mind, and I don't I would admit to

1265
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: not having checked in on this issue and maybe a

1266
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: year it's been a while since it's been relevant, but

1267
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: was the National Monument production that played out in December

1268
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: with Donald Trump. Um. It was one of the first.

1269
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: It was it was one of the most um striking

1270
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: moments where I saw these two different narratives being played

1271
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: out within my own community, or at least in in

1272
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: reference to our community. Do you remember having a similar

1273
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you've been around longer than me, But do

1274
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: you feel like this is one of the more striking times?

1275
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 1: Is that overplaying it? I mean it, I think you

1276
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: you chose an excellent crystallization for for the outdoor community

1277
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: being presented with with a set effects that was interpreted

1278
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: in utterly opposite ways. Yes, and so I did pull

1279
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: up two articles. One of them is on Patagonis websites.

1280
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: It's still there. Um the title, well the title is

1281
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: is irrelevant, but they're big, bold headlines, and this was

1282
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: on their website at the time, says you were lied

1283
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: to and the president stole your land. So let's just

1284
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: say for a minute that you don't know what the

1285
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: national monument issue is or what happened in seen with

1286
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: the reduction of two specific national monuments. Let's say you

1287
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: don't know anything about let's say the first time you're

1288
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: hearing about it. Okay, so patagon you said said at

1289
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 1: that time, you were lied to and the president stole

1290
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 1: your land. And they, by the way, it also used

1291
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: that as an ad, just a straight ad that went

1292
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: out all over the place. It was huge. That was

1293
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: a campaign and a campaign of activism on behalf of Paedagonia.

1294
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: No Patagonians in the outdoor space. They're not in the

1295
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: hunting your fishing space very very much. They dabble, they

1296
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: play in the fly fishing space. Yeah, yes, okay that yeah,

1297
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: it makes sense. But they're they're around, right, So they're

1298
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: not like a core hunting and fishing brand, but they're

1299
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: around and we all know that they lean left. Uh

1300
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: vanard van sard Is is who he is. Um. The

1301
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: n ARRAY Institute for Legislative Action said a headline about

1302
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 1: the same set of facts. N RA applauds Trump administration

1303
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: for restoring access to Utah public land. So if this

1304
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: isn't an example of a very important topic, an essential

1305
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: topic for land designation and an access and habitat in

1306
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: this country tree taking this example. Now, look, this is

1307
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 1: three years ago, so maybe this is not a rampid

1308
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: thing in our space on a broad level, but this

1309
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: certainly is uh a part of it, you know. I

1310
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 1: mean I think I think it still is. But I

1311
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: think this is a good one to use because we

1312
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 1: can skin it really well with those headlines. And so

1313
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:25,600
Speaker 1: let's just play like the the fact checker Arbiters of

1314
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: truth moment. Here, I will I will first admit my

1315
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: own bias and say that I was not a fan

1316
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 1: of shrinking those monuments first, but I will also say

1317
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: that if I had to rank the truth the truthiness

1318
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: of those two headlines, I think the n r A

1319
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 1: is comes closer like it. It hits a little higher

1320
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: on the truthiness scale for me than than than the

1321
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 1: Patagonia one. And that doesn't I don't care if you

1322
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: were opposed to that particular shrinking of monuments. Lying about

1323
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: it to piss people off doesn't help anyone's cause. Yes, Um,

1324
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: to read a little bit from I'll read it. I'll

1325
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 1: read you a little bit from the n r A.

1326
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: I mean, first the Patagonia piece, and then the n

1327
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 1: r A piece, and and and again. Let's just start

1328
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 1: by saying, you know what's happening here? Is there being

1329
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:22,520
Speaker 1: there there's one the painting of motivation, purity and motivation

1330
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: on both sides, Um, and again we're gonna say Trump

1331
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 1: is pure. The NRA is gonna says Trump's motivations are

1332
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 1: purity is doing it for you, And PATAGONA is gonna

1333
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: say Trump is evil. He's doing it to hurt you.

1334
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: He's lying to you, so, Patagonia said. In December of

1335
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,640
Speaker 1: the president illegally reduced Bears the Years and Grand Staircases

1336
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 1: Galante National Minings by nearly two million acres, despite overwhelming

1337
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 1: support from the gjority of Americans nearly three million, of

1338
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 1: whom spoke up during a public comment period in favor

1339
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,919
Speaker 1: of protecting our national monuments. The President invoked terms like heritage, respect,

1340
01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:01,560
Speaker 1: glorious natural wonder, and protection to substance sub substantiate the announcement.

1341
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: What wasn't explained at the time, and only came to

1342
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: light with a release of thousands of pages of documents

1343
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,760
Speaker 1: from a Freedom of Information Act requests, was that the

1344
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: decision was nothing more than a political favor. Despite numerous

1345
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: promises by a handful of politicians that the former monuments

1346
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: contain no sufficient energy resources, it turns out that they do.

1347
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 1: The redrawing of boundaries was deliberate and directly influenced by

1348
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 1: an industry that spends billions of dollars lobbying the government

1349
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: to get what it wants, and they went on to

1350
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,679
Speaker 1: give examples of coal, oil and gas, uranium and other

1351
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 1: resources that that sit in a place that was once

1352
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 1: a national monument and is no longer right. So to

1353
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: be clear, what Patagony is saying is that the president

1354
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 1: lied to you about his intentions so that he could

1355
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: do favors for his buddies in the extractive resources industry.

1356
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: I guess we will say in this case that square

1357
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 1: up miles. Yeah. Yeah, And if that had been their

1358
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,440
Speaker 1: banner than it would have scored higher on the truthiness

1359
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: uh scale. But the stealing of public lands is just

1360
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 1: purely incorrect, yes for the redesignation right. And so this

1361
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: gets back to and you start getting into how that

1362
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: we we we take the like the whaler analogy, We

1363
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: take the whale and we chop it up, and we

1364
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: we present the fact quote unquote facts. How people see

1365
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: this this very important happening in the outdoors. You had

1366
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 1: Secretary Zinkie at the time he was no longer Secretary Interior,

1367
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:38,600
Speaker 1: was was really playing up his relationship with hunters and anglers. UM,

1368
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 1: this was a big thing people wanted to support from

1369
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: our community on this um. And so now you have

1370
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: the National Rifle Association, which I read to you n

1371
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 1: R a applause. Trump administration for restoring a S. S.

1372
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 1: Tou tall public lands. Now, to be clear, I'm not

1373
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 1: picking on the n r A for any other reason

1374
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: that when I googled this, they came up first, so

1375
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 1: good for them on s c O. But they were

1376
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: not the only one that that had this. UM. This

1377
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: was racking. MOLNLK Foundation, National Wild Stricty Fare and others

1378
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: parated this same talking point. UM. I want to go

1379
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: and double check that those folks are involved, but I'm

1380
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: almost positive that many conservation groups in our space parroted

1381
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: this messaging as well around this, and they just said

1382
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: this is a very press release. Ee. The National Right

1383
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 1: Association's i l A today applauded President Trump and Secretary

1384
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: of Interior Ryan Zinky's decision to restore access to public

1385
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 1: lands in Utah. President Trump announced it he intends to

1386
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 1: shrink the size of the Bears Ears and Grand Staircases

1387
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: Scalante National Monuments, spanning millions of acres in Utah. The

1388
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 1: two national monuments were among twenty seven that President Trump

1389
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: ordered Interior secretaries in each review earlier this year. Now

1390
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: to go back to the points of emphasis, opponents of

1391
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 1: this review said that the review was fake. All they

1392
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 1: were doing is feigning and review, so they could they

1393
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 1: take these two You know, this was what they started

1394
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: out to do to shrink these two monuments, and the

1395
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: review was what it was to kind of shield politically

1396
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: shield this political action. It says the n Ray applause

1397
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 1: the President Trump and Secretary Zinky. This is former i

1398
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: l A Executive Director Chris cox decision to restore access

1399
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,679
Speaker 1: to public lands in Utah. Under the Trump Administration's decisions

1400
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 1: regarding national public lands are transparent and being made with

1401
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: the input of America's sportsmen and women. Hunters and sportsmen

1402
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: serve as the backbone of modern natural resource management in

1403
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,839
Speaker 1: the United States. It's refreshing that the Trump administration values

1404
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 1: their input. It almost feels like Chris Cox is trolling

1405
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: us there. Feel like it feels like he's just being

1406
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: like he's saying the opposite of what he's doing to

1407
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: to to troll us, to see if wh' I'm noticing

1408
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 1: um so, so they to to set off the other side.

1409
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 1: You know, the motivation clearly here is to get hunters

1410
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: and anglers on board and and to use the idea

1411
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: that we pay through excise taxes and license sales for

1412
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:56,720
Speaker 1: the bulk of um conservation work in this country and

1413
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: use that power to say like these these sent you'll

1414
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: stakeholders are on board with this and we're doing this

1415
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: for them, and also at the same time saying the

1416
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: national monument designation is a problem for access for hunting

1417
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 1: and fishing UM and so here we are that. You know,

1418
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: it's I want to let you kind of comment, and

1419
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 1: like I said, I will be very honest that I

1420
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: haven't kept up on what actually happened in the last year,

1421
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 1: but I know that there were some some mining leases

1422
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: and things going up in UM both of these national

1423
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: monuments that I haven't checked on. So maybe we'll update

1424
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 1: this in the in the prologue. Yeah, I I I'm

1425
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 1: not as up on this topic as I was a

1426
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 1: year ago either. UM. So I would love to be

1427
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: able to say here's what's going on, but I can't

1428
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:49,760
Speaker 1: do that with any authority whatsoever. I think that I

1429
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:53,719
Speaker 1: think that we are and by we I mean hunters

1430
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 1: and anglers. We are a valuable demographic right now. And

1431
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:03,120
Speaker 1: and you saw at in the most recent the most

1432
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: recent Congress right like Great American Outdoors Act was I

1433
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 1: think an excellent example of representatives and political consciousness is

1434
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 1: realizing we we we gotta get this board, this particular

1435
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: group on board. It's one of those few places we

1436
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:23,639
Speaker 1: can sway people and and so all of a sudden

1437
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: we're valuable and different, different different sides, however you want

1438
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: to characterize that, different political persuasions are gonna skin what

1439
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 1: they do differently in order to try and sway us

1440
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 1: to one side or the other. I and I think

1441
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,120
Speaker 1: I think all of this circles right back to where

1442
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: we started in that, like, you know what, I don't

1443
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:49,760
Speaker 1: really want to hear the predetermined conclusion about why this

1444
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 1: is greater, why it's terrible. I really want to hear

1445
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 1: how this is going to impact the public lands that

1446
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 1: I care about, in in in concrete measure norble terms. Yeah.

1447
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: And and you know when I now, when I announce

1448
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 1: the social media, just be like, hey, I might I

1449
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 1: might vote for Trump. It was like three days before

1450
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 1: the election, I was like, right now, if I had

1451
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: vote today, I'd vote for Trump. And it was a

1452
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 1: shitty three days from me trying to figure that out.

1453
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: But when I said that, a lot of people called

1454
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 1: me from both sides to discuss. And what happened was

1455
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,639
Speaker 1: when I gave my reasoning. I would hear two things

1456
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 1: from people on the right. They would say, Hey, our

1457
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: public plans aren't under attack as much as you think

1458
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,679
Speaker 1: they are. It's not a problem. Because I was often

1459
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 1: I was vascalating between gun rights and public land access,

1460
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 1: environmentalism and things I care about for for healthy ecosystems

1461
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: and healthy wild places and the ability to defend my

1462
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: family and what that all means, and some of the

1463
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,639
Speaker 1: nuances between the two things. So I'm thinking about those

1464
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 1: two things in my mind. I'm trying to weigh them out.

1465
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,719
Speaker 1: And I heard pretty consistently from people I respect, Ah,

1466
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:59,639
Speaker 1: you know your gun rights aren't under you know, you'll

1467
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: be able to keep your shotguns and rifles. For people

1468
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 1: on the left, and for people on the right, hey,

1469
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 1: your public lands are fine. Like the trying to convince

1470
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 1: me that the you know, the my fear should be

1471
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 1: elevated against one of these issues that or another right.

1472
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: And I think that to me, that showed me a

1473
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 1: lot in just how people. You know, when when you

1474
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 1: lean one way, even if you lean very intellectually that way. Um,

1475
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 1: I think you're predisposed to to think that you know,

1476
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: your gun rates are fine. Uh, access to those things

1477
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 1: are fine and and in reality, maybe they're both not fine. Yeah,

1478
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 1: that's what do you do? That's what I said. I said, Well,

1479
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they are not fine, and I, in my opinion,

1480
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 1: they aren't because I can see because I care about

1481
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: the stuff I read about it, I think about it

1482
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 1: quite a lot um and I know that no matter

1483
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 1: where I vote, I'm putting something I value at risk.

1484
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: And that's the problem I have. And and it's not

1485
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:00,759
Speaker 1: a to me. It's not the you know, the better

1486
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 1: of two evils or the lesser of two evils. It's

1487
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: it's how do I It's It's not that, it's it's

1488
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: how do I weigh these very important things when I

1489
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,200
Speaker 1: go and I make those decisions. And what we've just

1490
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: highlighted here is is part of why we are unclear

1491
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 1: thinkers collectively, and part of why even our passions, even

1492
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 1: our pursuits are enthusiast pursuits like hunting and fishing land

1493
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:31,800
Speaker 1: directly in the same muddy water as national politics. Um So, yeah,

1494
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: now all we have to do is end on providing

1495
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:38,680
Speaker 1: the solution. Go ahead, Miles, I, I yeah, I got it.

1496
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,720
Speaker 1: It's all figured out. What here's what I'm gonna say,

1497
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: now here's here's my issue with all sides of it.

1498
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:46,760
Speaker 1: And I'm worried because I know what I'm gonna sound

1499
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 1: like right now, but I'm gonna say it anyway. As

1500
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: I said from the beginning, when when you first started

1501
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: quoting the article profit and sales, to me, the I'm

1502
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:01,759
Speaker 1: I'm way to for and I don't see any evidence

1503
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 1: of becoming. But I'm waiting for the candidate that is

1504
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 1: not actually in the pocket of the huge, massive corporations

1505
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: and the very few billionaires on both sides of the

1506
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 1: political spectrum that are that are the ones pushing all

1507
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 1: these agendas um to. I will also admit I'm not

1508
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,559
Speaker 1: a huge Bernie fan, just because like he strikes me

1509
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 1: as like the really obnoxious uncle at Thanksgiving and that's

1510
01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 1: always yelling at everybody, and I don't really like that guy.

1511
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 1: But I I do agree with his perspectives of of

1512
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 1: we have to find a way to strip the profit

1513
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: and the money out of our political system or we

1514
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: don't have a path forward. And I in some ways

1515
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 1: that's true with our media system too. But as I

1516
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 1: said earlier, I don't like the the alternative of it

1517
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:52,880
Speaker 1: being a state run media either, So I'm not I'm

1518
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 1: not on board with that ship. So I don't know

1519
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 1: how we move the profit game out of these very

1520
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:04,640
Speaker 1: very important pillars of democracy. But god damn, that's what

1521
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: I think we gotta do. Yeah, well, I mean, you know,

1522
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,680
Speaker 1: in the hunting in the hunting and fishing conversation, one

1523
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 1: of the things I often say that that that when

1524
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,599
Speaker 1: I look logically at hunting, I'm like, man, I'm glad

1525
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 1: the North American molelide widlife conservation exists because at least

1526
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: we could start by like a thought out foundation that

1527
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 1: has tenants and ways of acting and things that um

1528
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: should educate us and dictate how we function and and

1529
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 1: then we can determine our sets of values and try

1530
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:38,320
Speaker 1: to move around with that. So I'm always very comfortable

1531
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:41,719
Speaker 1: with that. But I will say this at the same time,

1532
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:44,919
Speaker 1: I don't know of any you can tell me of

1533
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 1: of any political shows or any shows that are discussing

1534
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff other than advocacy groups or conservation

1535
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:57,599
Speaker 1: groups that clearly have that have a stated goal public

1536
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 1: land access, elk populations, turkey populations, you know, fish populated,

1537
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, healthy habitats. These are are lots

1538
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 1: of times single species conservation groups that are taking up

1539
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 1: the mantle of political discourse within the hunting and fishing space.

1540
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 1: There isn't a show about politics that talks through these

1541
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 1: things and tries to educate people in hunting at all.

1542
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 1: We have seeded the conversation to either outsiders or people

1543
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 1: that have clearly stated nonprofit goals in terms of conservation

1544
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:35,720
Speaker 1: or wildlife, and we're both. So I'm not saying I

1545
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 1: know much about all of that. It's not all bad,

1546
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:42,000
Speaker 1: but we certainly should try to break it down for

1547
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 1: ourselves more because we don't have something dedicated to doing that,

1548
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,200
Speaker 1: and I don't know where where it starts or what

1549
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 1: the incentive for it. That's it. The incentive for it

1550
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 1: is like that would be a tough job for anybody,

1551
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: you know. And as you said earlier, we have we

1552
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 1: have uh this show. If everyone hated this show on

1553
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 1: both sides and it tried to remain firmly in the middle,

1554
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:09,000
Speaker 1: which sometimes happens to this program, um, most companies would

1555
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,320
Speaker 1: be like that, that's not a good business model. Why

1556
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: don't you go with the hate incorporated business model? Because

1557
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 1: we did. We live in a world where people actually

1558
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:20,800
Speaker 1: actively hate hunting and try to stop it. And so

1559
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: I could just come on here every week and go,

1560
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, here's the list of all the things you

1561
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:27,639
Speaker 1: need to be worried about and be angry about and hate.

1562
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 1: Um wouldn't be hard to do. But you know, when

1563
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 1: we do that, we often do that after we've heard

1564
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 1: from an anti hunter or a vegan or something like that.

1565
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 1: So we can then say, like, here's what they said.

1566
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 1: Now here's what's happening on the you know, on the

1567
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,800
Speaker 1: on the legislative side or a policy side. That is

1568
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 1: the manifestation of these feelings. Right, They're trying to ban

1569
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,680
Speaker 1: bear hunting New Jersey to save the bears. Here's a

1570
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,479
Speaker 1: guy who his ideologies lead to this legislation and the

1571
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:57,679
Speaker 1: end of this song, etcetera, etcetera. So at least try

1572
01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 1: to string it out in a way that just does

1573
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 1: and pander to people's hate of people that don't like

1574
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 1: what they do. If we can take one thing away

1575
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 1: from this, I certainly think that we can, all of

1576
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 1: us can can pick out when we're being pandered too,

1577
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 1: when when the hate is being delivered in a weaponized way,

1578
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:17,719
Speaker 1: in a in a very narrative way, like when it happens,

1579
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 1: when some big political thing happens, and hunting and fishing

1580
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 1: and the outdoors are involved, we should be able to

1581
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 1: look at it and suss out the real facts and

1582
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 1: pick out the bullshit pretty quickly if we If we

1583
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: train ourselves to really look hard at at the presentations

1584
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 1: and the motivations of those UH outlets and conservation organizations

1585
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: and entities that have goals, we fix it done. Follow

1586
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 1: the money, Follow the money, all right, everybody? Well hopefully um,

1587
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 1: And and we'll talk about what we're gonna do in

1588
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 1: in episodes going forward. But we're gonna continue down this

1589
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 1: path and and the Tayebe paradox will will be showing

1590
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 1: up in future episodes of this year. Back anytime, man,

1591
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: you know what you know, I love these conversations. I

1592
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 1: love it too. I appreciate you in every way. And

1593
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: go listen to Bent. If you aren't already listening to Bent,

1594
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:10,960
Speaker 1: you are a loser. Uh. And that's it's on you really,

1595
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:12,720
Speaker 1: So all right, man, you have a good night, and

1596
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,400
Speaker 1: we will talk to you real soon. Brother. Thanks brother, Yep,

1597
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:26,519
Speaker 1: that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank

1598
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 1: you to our friend Miles Nolte. Is that right? And

1599
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: Miles Nolte uh And I got called out this last

1600
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 1: week on the Bent podcast because I've been consistently pronouncing

1601
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 1: his name Miles Nulte like with a little French accent

1602
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 1: over the eat, but Nulty like Nick Nolty, well all

1603
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:53,479
Speaker 1: the yeah, Nick Nolty is a badass. Um. So lots

1604
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:57,440
Speaker 1: lots covered. There a lot of ground covered. Again. Um.

1605
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 1: I think this is an important topics. I think it

1606
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: expands everything we do you in life, and it really

1607
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,719
Speaker 1: dictates how we talk to each other, how exchange ideas,

1608
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 1: how we think about things. And I will freely admit

1609
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:12,719
Speaker 1: that every podcast of this nature, every media thing other

1610
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 1: than as Phil brought up before we got in with Miles,

1611
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 1: other than things like the AP and and some of

1612
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 1: this strict news report, everything has a value proposition. Everything

1613
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 1: has the thing that you listened for, right. I've listened

1614
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 1: to podcasts before that made it seem like masculinity was

1615
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 1: the only thing that mattered and it was under attack.

1616
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 1: I've listened to podcast before that that told you that

1617
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,840
Speaker 1: religion was under attack, that your your First Amendment rights

1618
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:40,519
Speaker 1: were under attack, that your gender, that your race. I've

1619
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 1: listened to a news broadcasts and all types of media

1620
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:46,719
Speaker 1: that had told me that every aspect of my life

1621
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 1: is under attack, as we talked about with Miles, So, UM,

1622
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: thank you for listening to that whole thing. I wanted

1623
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 1: to examine that I was inspired by Taiebi. Uh, if

1624
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 1: you want to go, there's no reason for me to

1625
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 1: be promoting him other than I really Shady's ideas and

1626
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 1: his writings. So go see him. But we're going to

1627
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 1: next week and weeks after because we have so many

1628
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: new hunters coming into this show and coming into our sport,

1629
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: our pursuits. Uh, talk a little bit more about guns,

1630
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:16,439
Speaker 1: gun culture. Um, what do you need to know if

1631
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 1: you're a new gun owner. We did go over some

1632
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: of the n RAY safety rules with Phil a couple

1633
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: you know last week. We're gonna do that more with

1634
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,440
Speaker 1: Ian Harrison, who's the editor in chief of Recoil magazine,

1635
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 1: and then down the road some other folks that have

1636
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:33,840
Speaker 1: some diversion ideas from Ian. But first Ian next week

1637
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: on the Hunting Collective, say by Phil By because I

1638
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 1: can't go a week without doing run with