1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. This one was a real hot button 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: issue for us. This is something that a lot of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: people in the West are not aware of. It's Russia's 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: operation infection with a cake. 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: Because it's edgy. No, all jokes aside. This is a 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: horrific story. Yes it is. And it's strange because we 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 2: did this one in twenty twenty. And I don't know 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: about you, guys, I didn't personally learn about the conspiracy 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: theories floating around about the National Institutes of Health and 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: some of the other institutes here in the United States 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: and their potential involvement in vaccinations that led to all 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: these things. Again, these are theories that are floating around 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: out there. I hadn't either, Matt, but they match up 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: weirdly with this the thing we're going to talk about 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: in this episode. I don't know, just strange. 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Let's get into it after a word from our sponsors. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 19 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 3: learn this stuff. They don't want you to know. A 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: production of Iheartrading. 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: Pal Noel is on adventures. They call me Ben. We're 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: joined as always with our super producer Paul, Mission control 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: decand most importantly, you are here and that makes this stuff. 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: They don't want you to know. How's it going, Matt, 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I still love the lighting in your bunker. 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the lighting is pretty good. There's no light except 28 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: for this tiny one here that mimics sunshine, which is nice. 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: I can feel like I'm outside getting at least some 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: kind of exposure, rather than being in this room and 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: not going mad. I'm not going mad. Everything's fine. Things 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: are well right. How are they going in your neck 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: of the woods. Uh? 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for asking. Uh, They're they're going all right. 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: Been a little isolated, part of that self imposed, and 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: part of that, you know, part of part of that 37 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: due to other reasons. But everything will work out. It's 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: strange because I was thinking about this earlier this weekend. 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: How quickly I mean, I talk about all the time, 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: how quickly things become normal for populations of human beings. 41 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's interesting is the the 42 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: adaptation of friend groups. It's interesting. I've noticed this on 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: a lot of like virtual hangout platforms, especially the ones 44 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: that have limits right over how many people can be 45 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: an X or do why? And I think it's pretty 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: instructive from a social dynamics, you know, from from that perspective, 47 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: I peak behind the curtain, folks here on this show. 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: We use zoom because it has it has a lower 49 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: lag than a lot of stuff, at least for us, 50 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have a time limit. So I think 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see how people adjust in the face 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: of an infection that is probably not going away. I've 53 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: got some scary research on that we might save for 54 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: our next COVID update. But you and I have been 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: thinking about other global diseases, and that's that's something we're 56 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: talking about today. 57 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: Yes, we are exploring one of the most prominent conspiracy 58 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: theories that has existed over you know, the last few decades. 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: It is a belief that you will see repeated all 60 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: across the Internet. It found global popularity for a time there, 61 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: and it kind of remains as this like unspoken truth 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: within a lot of communities, especially on the Internet in 63 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: the modern day. Right now. It's a really twisted thing. 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: It's a twisted tail that concerns a disease, but not 65 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: the one that most of us are concerned with right. 66 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: Now, right, Yeah, we're talking about HIV today. I'm also 67 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, you'll hear it interchangeably described as AIDS. They're 68 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: not quite the same thing. But in short, our work 69 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: question today is how did so many people come to 70 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: believe that the United States purposely created AIDS and why? 71 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: So to answer this question, we have to start the 72 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: way we always do, with what we know for sure. 73 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: So here are the facts. HIV is a virus like 74 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: the coronavirus. HIV is short for Human immunodeficiency virus. It 75 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: causes the condition known as autoimmune deficiency syndrome or AIDS. 76 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: So you don't get AIDS, you get HIV and that 77 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: it causes you to have AIDS. Nowadays, millions of people, 78 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: millions of people have died from this syndrome caused by HIV. 79 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: But luckily, as we're recording this now in twenty twenty, 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: there isn't a cure, but there are improved therapies and 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: preventative measures that have put the death rate in a 82 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: state of deep decline since it peaked back and around 83 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and five. 84 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about an area of HIV and 85 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: AIDS that has a lot of misinformation about it on 86 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: the Internet, and that is how the virus is transmitted. 87 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: We do know that a lot of bodily fluids are 88 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 2: the general way that it gets transmitted. We're talking blood, breast, milk, semen, 89 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: and vaginal secretions and so on down the line there. 90 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: And unlike the coronavirus, you cannot get infected with HIV 91 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 2: by that good old fashioned kissing. You can't get it 92 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: by shaking hands. You can't get it by hugging or 93 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: sharing food or beverages the way you can get the coronavirus. 94 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: But we do have a makeout warning. 95 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: Though, right Yes, you have to be very careful about 96 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: sores in the mouth of someone you are deep kissing 97 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: is the way it has been described French kissing as 98 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: most of us know it. So just be careful because 99 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: if you have a if there is an open sore 100 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: in someone's mouth, that can transmit this virus. 101 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: If you have an open sore as well, or if 102 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: you have you know, bleeding gums because of the gum disease, 103 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: gingivitis or something. I just wanted to drop a gingervitis 104 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: line in there. From the tooth based commercials. You're absolutely right, Matt. 105 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: You know, in comparison to other viruses, you would think 106 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:57,679 Speaker 1: that HIV has one huge limiting factor. It's not airborne, right, 107 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: it's fluid transmitted, So you would think that, hey, this 108 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: is not something you know, this is not near as 109 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: easy to spread. But there's a problem because HIV has 110 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: a very long I don't know if it's right to 111 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: call it an incubation rate, but you can get HIV, 112 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: get HIV and be contagious, be a carrier and transmitter 113 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: of it for a decade, ten years or more before 114 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: they exhibit any sign of infection, before they have any 115 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: reason to think they should go get tested. And when 116 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: they are out and about, when they are you know, 117 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: living their lives symptom free, asymptomatic, they can infect what 118 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: dozens more people one way or another, and then those people, 119 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: of course, rent and repeat, go on to infect dozens 120 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: of others, and so on and so on until it 121 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: becomes a global problem. HIV attacks your immune system. It 122 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: invades our cells, invades the cells of your immune system, 123 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: and then it hacks them in a very uncool way, 124 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: to say the least, It reprograms them to stop being 125 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: your immune cells that you know, love and trust and 126 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: become factories to just make more HIV. If you don't 127 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: get treatment, then what happens is the number of immune 128 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: cells in your body. They dwindle, you know, like a 129 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: not all at once, but kind of like a dying 130 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: town in the rural Midwest or something. If the body cell, 131 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: if the immune cells are people, there are fewer and 132 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: fewer in the population. And then as as your body 133 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: is deprived of these and loses them, that then autoimmuno 134 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: deficiency syndrome can kick in. And once that happens, a 135 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: person can be susceptible to a wide range of possible infections, 136 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: some that would ordinarily not be fatal. Right, your body 137 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: has to work so much harder, and your immune system 138 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: has been so weakened that it cannot fight back effectively. 139 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where the coronavirus really does come 140 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 2: back in because it makes it that much more dangerous 141 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: for anyone out there who is HIV positive or who 142 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: has autoimmune deficiency. So it really it's a scary thing 143 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: right now, having this pandemic going around for those people. 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: And the other thing about HIV is that it isn't 145 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: just one thing, one particular thing it is consistently changing 146 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: and mutating, and it's believed to be like HIV itself, 147 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: is believed to be a mutated version of a different 148 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: virus that was It's called the Simian immuno deficiency virus 149 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: or civ SIV. And this is the same It does 150 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: the same kind of thing, only it attacks primates, apes, monkeys, 151 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: all right, And that's important. 152 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: That'll matter in just a second, especially as we dive 153 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: into the history of this of this disease. 154 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: So AIDS first. 155 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: Gained public attention in the nineteen eighties, and there were 156 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: so many misconceptions about what this was and how it spread. 157 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: For example, some people, including medical experts, early on, thought 158 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: it was only a disease encountered by people engaging in 159 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: same sex relationships or you know, same sex intimate encounters, right, 160 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: And then other people thought it only targeted minorities, because 161 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: both African Americans and people in the LGBT communities were 162 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: seemed to be acquiring this more often than other communities. 163 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: One thing was for sure. It was initially seen as 164 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: a terminal condition, and you know, early treatments were almost 165 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: as damaging as the infection itself. Luckily, back in the 166 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, so long ago now doctors shifted to a 167 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: new treatment program. They started using combinations of drugs simultaneously. 168 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: They called these anti retroviral drugs cocktails. Even now, a 169 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: cocktail cannot cure HIV or AIDS, but it can control 170 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: that replication, and that gives your immune system vital time 171 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: to recover and strengthen. So we're in a good spot there, 172 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: especially compared to the eighties. But we're still trying to 173 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: figure out the origin story of HIV, and we wanted 174 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: to give you the official version as it stands now 175 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. 176 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: So the official version of how HIV reached humans was 177 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: that there were hunters somewhere out in the bush and 178 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: the sieve infection that we talked about previously to this, 179 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: the immune deficiency disease or virus that was affecting apes, 180 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 2: was transmitted to humans when they killed somehow, and then 181 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: probably in some way can assumed the chimpanzees or possibly 182 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: when these hunters. You know, you're going through let's say 183 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: a jungle, very thick bush area, you're getting small cuts 184 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: on your arms or your legs or something. Then blood 185 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 2: comes out of a chimpanzee when it is killed and 186 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: somehow that blood gets into one of those cuts and 187 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: then the virus begins to mutate from there. Yeah. 188 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: The thing is that people have been getting sieve for 189 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: a long long time, pretty often, but every so often, 190 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: every blue moon, this sieve that was in their body 191 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: would evolve and it would adapt to live in its 192 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: new environment, the human host. And this is the ascendancy 193 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: of HIV one. There are four main groups of HIV 194 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: strains and they each have a slightly different makeup genetically. 195 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because it supports the scientist hunter 196 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: theory because they're saying, hey, these different versions exist because 197 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: every time sieve asked from a chimp to a human, 198 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: it mutated independently in a different way and produced a 199 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: slightly different strain. There are things that we should also mention. 200 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: There's HIV two that comes from CIV inside a type 201 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: of monkey rather than a chimpanzee, and we think it 202 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: happened in a similar way, but it's much rarer and 203 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: it's less infectious, so as a result, you don't see 204 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: as many people infected. It's nowadays found mainly in some 205 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: West African countries Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Sierra Leone. But check 206 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: this out. So we said the nineteen eighties, right, how 207 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: far back does it go. The first verified case of 208 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: HIV is from a blood sample taken in nineteen fifty 209 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: nine from a guy who was living in the Democratic 210 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: Republic of the Congo. And that's probably not the first one. 211 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: That's just the first case for which we have a verifiable, 212 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: tested blood sample. It probably happened before then. As a 213 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: matter of fact, we're ninety eight percent plus certain that 214 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: it did so. Right now, that's the current theory, the 215 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: hunter theory. That's when people accept studies concluded the first 216 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: transmission of SIV to HIV and humans probably occurred in 217 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, right, I think the teens nineteen 218 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: twenty or so. But we see evidence of this in 219 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo because that's where HIV strains 220 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: have the most genetic diversity, and from what we know, 221 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: that means that CIV transformed into HIV multiple times in 222 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: this area. It's also home of many of the first 223 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: reported cases. So there you have it, right, that's the 224 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: official that's the official theory. That's what if you ask 225 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: an expert in the field, that's probably what they're going. 226 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: To tell you, Yeah, it is the prevailing theory, but 227 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: it is certainly not the only thing you are going 228 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: to hear if you just go around and start asking 229 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: everybody about HIV and AIDS, and in fact, millions of 230 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: people across the world are convinced that for some reason, 231 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: in some way, the United States government or some faction 232 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: within had a hand in creating this virus, creating this disease. 233 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: Why would they do that, Well, allegedly it's because of 234 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: something called operation infection infection spelled with a K. And 235 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: we'll tell you all about that after a word from 236 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: our sponsor. 237 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. 238 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: Put aside for the moment any questions about whether the 239 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: United States actually did or did not somehow manufacture HIV. Instead, 240 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: let's explore how this idea evolved, how it became so 241 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: popular in the world of conspiracy. The answer is simply this. 242 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: It's one thing. 243 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: It's operation infection, like you said, Matt with a K, 244 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: which makes it sound way cooler. But okay, so you 245 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: introduced this to this concept, but what is operation infection? 246 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: Well, has a several other names. By the way, we 247 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: should just mention here. There's forward two there's Operation Denver 248 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: by the way forward two. You may also find vorwartz 249 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: v O r w a ar t S two. You'll 250 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: you'll find that if you begin searching around this Operation Infection, 251 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: it was just a classic KGB move, one of these 252 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: disinfo productions, you know, disinformation. We've talked about it before 253 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: on this show, and it bears all the hallmarks of 254 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: their objectively top notch approach to information warfare. And when 255 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: you started diving into this, you're just you it's weird. 256 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: This feels very callous. But you begin to after seeing 257 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: this for so you know, so many times, you begin 258 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: to have an appreciation of it in some weird way 259 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: of like, oh okay, guys, I see you, I see 260 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: what you're doing. But let's just jump into this. And 261 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 2: that sounds callous, why, I promise I don't mean it 262 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: that way. 263 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: Now. 264 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: The Russian government, okay, the Russian government has been doing 265 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: this for a long long time, way before the rise 266 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: of HIV. 267 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, they have. You know. 268 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: It's the thing. 269 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: It's it's like you got to respect the hustle, you 270 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like they put the work in, 271 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: they put the time in, the idea that you one 272 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: can labor for ten thousand hours on something and then 273 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: become a genius is a myth, but this you could 274 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: tell that the practice made perfect here. They didn't just 275 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: come up with information warfare in the eighties. The first 276 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: Office entirely dedicated to propaganda and disinfo on the Russian 277 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: side and possibly in the world, is older than the 278 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: KGB itself in nineteen twenty three. The GPU, it's the 279 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: predecessor to the KGB, kind of like how the OSS 280 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: here in the States is the predecessor to the CIA. Anyway, 281 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty three, the GPU was already rolling along 282 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: full steam ahead, and the etymology of the word disinformation 283 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: itself proves how far into the game these folks were. 284 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: Oddly enough, you know, Russian and English very different languages, 285 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: but by the rise of the Second World War, the 286 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: word disinformation had been invented independently in both Russian and 287 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: English to describe information warfare. And when the KGB got 288 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: into the game, when they became a real thing officially 289 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, this meant that disinformation was already 290 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: a tremendously important tool in their active measures doctrine. Active measures, 291 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: by the way, is just a euphemism. Think of it 292 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: more like the art of political warfare. They were linking 293 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: manipulation the front groups that we've talked about before, they 294 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: were counterfeiting documents and currency. And then of course even 295 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: when it was necessary or I guess maybe when they 296 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: had a bad day, they would practice wetwork assassinations. 297 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, this kind of thing a lot of times feels 298 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: like a smoke screen so that other operations can occur. Right, 299 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: So you can mislead your opponent in some way into 300 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 2: believing one thing when you're actually doing another. And if 301 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: you do it effectively enough, you can still do the 302 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 2: one thing because your opponents will think that you are 303 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: trying to deceive them by talking or putting information about 304 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: out about the one thing. It's it's it's fascinating. The 305 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: game involved with all of this, the game that they 306 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: play with lives across the world, is fascinating, if not horrifying. 307 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Cold War throughout all of it. 308 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: The you know, the Soviets really just excelled in creating 309 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: tension between their opponents and their friends. So the opponent's friends, right, 310 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: does that make sense? The Allies that the people who 311 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: are supposed to be on one side, but if you 312 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 2: can foment some kind of tension between those allies, they 313 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 2: are no longer as strong as they once were. And 314 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: in particular, they love this thing called quote black propaganda, 315 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: and this was crafting, making up really damaging stuff, information 316 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: that we would be put out about an ally, let's say, 317 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: which purported to be from an ally. Right, So if 318 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: Russian propaganda would exist, and it would look as though, 319 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 2: let's say England was putting out some information about the 320 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: United States, when in fact it is actually a Soviet message, right. 321 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, even for a microcosmic example, 322 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: you could imagine, let's just take let's just take Matt 323 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Noel and Ben and say like, well, we'll pick one 324 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: of those podcasters to be Russia. Then they if they 325 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: wanted to break down cooperation between the other two, then 326 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: they would say they wouldn't say hey I think this 327 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: about I think this person thinks this about you. They 328 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: would say, hey, I got the I recovered this and 329 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: it's about you, and I wanted to share it with you. 330 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: The Russians did this on a global level. One example 331 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: would be Operation Neptune in nineteen ninety four, they attempted 332 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: to use these forged documents to imply that Western politicians 333 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: had supported the Nazis. But the important part here, the twist, 334 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: is that they didn't say they were declassified Soviet documents. 335 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: They came from somewhere else, and the Russians happened to 336 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: find them. Excuse me, Sylviet government happened to find them. 337 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: And so now it was ethical to spread this sort 338 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: of thing and to because really it's an attack, it 339 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: just doesn't use bullets. And there are a lot of 340 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: other cases too, like the USSR was working actively of 341 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: course during this Cold War, Right, they're working actively to 342 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: discredit the US government internationally, not that it always needed 343 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: a lot of help with that, and to discredit it 344 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: to its domestic population. Again, not that it always needed 345 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: much help with that either. I don't want to sound 346 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: too cynical. We just have to remember, like during this time, 347 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: there were massive domestic protests, right, there was a lot 348 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: of unhappiness in the international sphere regarding unilateral actions of 349 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: the United States. So there's a pretty compelling chicken or 350 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: the egg argument, right, was were these programs stoking flames 351 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: that already existed? Were they starting new fires, but they 352 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: did things like oh, evidence emerged that the US supports apartheid, 353 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: things like that, And so in the early days of 354 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis, the KGB saw a golden once in 355 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: an intelligent agencies lifetime kind of opportunity. 356 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Around the year nineteen eighty three, there is, I 357 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: guess one of the first known examples that you can 358 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 2: kind of point to when you're looking through this stuff. 359 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 2: There was an Indian pro Soviet paper. It carried an 360 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: anonymous letter from a quote well known American scientist. Huh 361 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 2: oh okay oh, well known American scientist obviously, and this 362 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: person who was quoted in this paper claimed that AIDS 363 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 2: had been developed in a secret bio lab in Fort 364 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: Dietrich within the United States. And of course, you know, 365 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: you begin there with a little seed basically, right, scientists 366 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: that we can't verify because it would put their life 367 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 2: at risk, exactly. So you've got that little seed nineteen 368 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: eighty three. Then only two years later, in nineteen eighty five, 369 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: there's a retired biophysicist named doctor Jacob Siegel. He claims 370 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: that the AIDS virus was synthesized by combining parts of 371 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: other viruses retroviruses in this case the VISNA or VISNA 372 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: and the HTLV one. And you know, we talked about 373 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 2: how the Soviets were using again not unlike the United 374 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: States or any other large power. They were using fronts 375 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: to report, like fronts where they could kind of seed 376 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: a story in or something, and then those fronts would 377 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: report on that story. So they would all these fronts 378 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: all over the world started reporting about this thing. They 379 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: would talk about the Seagull report, this person who has 380 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 2: come forward to let us know about the ADS virus 381 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: and how it was created rather than how it had evolved. 382 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's an example. We don't have to read 383 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: this whole excerpt, but we wanted to sum up what 384 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: it's saying so you get a sense of it. This doctor, 385 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: this retired biophysicist. You mentioned Matt Siegel in his report, 386 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: which was treated kind of like the way, Well, anytime 387 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: politically you hear a report and it's just the name 388 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: of the report is the last name of someone, kind 389 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: of like the Miller report, Well that's not science. Anytime 390 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: you hear that. It's kind of a currency created. It's 391 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: a nickname created so that people can circulate it more easily. 392 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: And it's super recognizable because that's the rule of media, right, 393 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: make it one or two words, preferably yep. So the 394 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: single report says no relation to Steven Sagall, by the way, unfortunately, 395 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: says quote, it's very easy using genetic technologies to unite 396 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: two parts of completely independent viruses. But who would be 397 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: interested in doing this? The military, of course. And then 398 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: they say, in nineteen seventy seven, a top security lab 399 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: was set up at the Pentagon Central Biological Laboratory, and 400 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: then one year after that, the first cases of AIDS 401 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: occur in the US in New York City. So the 402 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: timeline then implies nineteen seventy eight, how it occurred, how 403 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: it managed to get out of the secret, hush hush 404 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: laboratories easy to understand. And they say this following quote, 405 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: everyone knows the prisoners are used for military experiments in 406 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: the US. They promise their freedom if they come out 407 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: of the experiment alive. Interesting, now we should note that 408 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: Siegel himself, doctor Jacob Siegel, was presented as a French researcher, 409 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: but he was definitely he. 410 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: Was a German guy. 411 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: They were just trying to sort of make it one 412 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: more remove from the Soviet government. And unfortunately there's some 413 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: truth in some of these statements. US does have secret biolabs, 414 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: the US did experiment on prisoners, like, none of that 415 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: stuff was made up, Just this instance of that happening. 416 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the report blew up. At least 417 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: for back in the day. It couldn't go viral on 418 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: the Internet because it wasn't really you couldn't do that yet, 419 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: but it did go viral as far as coverage and 420 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 2: rumor and people talking about this. By nineteen eighty seven, 421 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: it received coverage in eighty countries in thirty languages, this 422 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 2: Seagull report, and that spread it just it followed this 423 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 2: fashion that we've seen before. It's something that continues that 424 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 2: we you know, kind of continue to see. Well, let's 425 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 2: let's just keep going here. The story appeared in a 426 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: publication from outside the USSR, right, so it's not us, 427 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: it's just it's over there. Right. Then it was presented 428 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 2: as investigative work within the Soviet media, right, so it's 429 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: like we were investigating this thing, this report that's been 430 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: out there that now we're looking at, uh, look what 431 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: we found, right right. 432 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: Right, Look at this Look what we found. It's crazy right, 433 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: but we feel it is our ethical duty to report 434 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: it and furthermore, you know, join us and asking why 435 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: the United States won't answer these strong and disturbing allegations. 436 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: And this is a smear tac that you've seen probably 437 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: in the world of celebrity as well, where it's like, 438 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't say it, but some people say, Okay, 439 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: who's our celebrity we pick on today. 440 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: Matt, let's go with Paul Rubins. No, no, no, Conan O'Brien. 441 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: Conan O'Brien. Oh man, Okay, all right, So this hypothetical example, 442 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, I'm sorry mister Rubens that you lost 443 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: to Conan here in this hypothetical example, you would see 444 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: something in the media like, well, you know, I didn't 445 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: say it. There are a lot of reports there are 446 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: some people are saying and have been saying, that ConA 447 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: and O'Brien breaks into preschools and steals children's shoes and 448 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: that he's he's using them to decorate a wall of 449 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: of his attic And uh, you know, I'm not saying 450 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: it's true. I'm saying a lot of people are saying it, 451 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: but I think it's interesting that he's never denied the allegation. 452 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 2: And you know what, earl, I won't even come out 453 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 2: and talk about it. Have you noticed that? 454 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. It's like, well, why aren't they responding? 455 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: And this is disturbing because you know, it works really 456 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: well if people are already, if they already have some 457 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: pre existing beliefs. Right, if someone, for some terrible reason 458 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: ever watched Conan O'Brien, who is a fantastic guy, and thought, yeah, guy, 459 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: looks it looks like steal shoes, and they especially, yeah, 460 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: they heard that report, they would be like, wow, he 461 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: never he never denied it. 462 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: I knew it. 463 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: I knew I was right. And we're we're having fun 464 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: with that example. But the mechanics are sound. That happens 465 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: all the time. The Soviet Party also focused special attention 466 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: on the car continent of Africa and Radio Moscow, which 467 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: is pretty much exactly like Voice of America or something. 468 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: Radio Moscow said the US was deliberately infecting people with 469 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: disease under the guise of free vaccination projects, and there's 470 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, tremendous distrust the vaccination projects in a lot 471 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: of the world, especially when they're sponsored by Western powers 472 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: or Western pharmaceutical companies. That's a story for another day though, 473 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: because there's some sand to it in my opinion. 474 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: I don't know if you agree with me. 475 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: There, Oh yeah, actually, yeah. 476 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: There's some sand to it. Okay, So we've got to 477 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 1: write that episode down for the future. But we're going 478 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: to take a pause. We'll have a word from our sponsor, 479 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: and when we return, we're going to see what happened 480 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: to Operation Infection. 481 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 3: And we're back, so. 482 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: Just to be clear, what was the purpose of Operation Infection. 483 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: We understand the strategy of this conspiracy, and it is 484 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: a conspiracy and it was effective, but what, like, what 485 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: was the what was why? Why were they doing this? 486 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: That's a great question because on the surface it doesn't 487 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: seem to make a ton of sense, but if you 488 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: look at a bigger picture, it does appear to have 489 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: two purposes. The first one is just to discredit the 490 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: United States in any way that they could and to 491 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: you know, make the United States, the civilians within the 492 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: United States maybe feel just a little bit more, if 493 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: not a lot bit more, worried that their government isn't 494 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: telling them the truth. And the second purpose there is 495 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: to shift attention away from Russia's own very real chemical 496 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: and bioweaponry research, the real scary stuff that was happening 497 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: in Russian research laboratories, in the United States laboratories, and 498 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: probably a bunch of other places too. 499 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: M yeah, well said. And this leads us to another question. 500 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: An elephant in the room here, an elephant in the 501 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: red room here is how do we know about this today? 502 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: It was so top secret? Right, how did we figure 503 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: this out? Are we secretly Russian disinfo agents? Well, there 504 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: is a tragic turn of events that leads to the 505 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: revelation of this. Here's what happens. Russia was actually really 506 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,479 Speaker 1: successful convincing people across the planet that HIV was not 507 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: only manufactured, but that the US was responsible. And part 508 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: of the reason they were so successful is because they 509 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: didn't make up the disease itself. It was and is 510 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: a real medical condition, and it was spreading unchecked, and 511 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: eventually the bill came due the disease arrived on Russian soil. 512 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: So in the mid to late nineteen eighties, Soviet researchers 513 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: are asking their American colleagues for help fighting this virus. 514 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: Their request gets denied. Not only is it denied, but 515 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: their American colleagues say, look, we're not going to help 516 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: you at all and will never help you unless you 517 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: stop this disinformation operation, at which point, you know, of course, 518 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: the Soviet researchers are like, hey, I'm not in charge 519 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: of that. That's the that's the you know, that's the KGB, 520 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: I check samples. I don't know how much policy influence 521 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: you think I have. But they were at an impasse, 522 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: and the Gorbachev administration tried to prevent the US from 523 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: exposing this, right, from tracing these things like the Cigar 524 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: Report back to its ultimate creators in the USSR. But 525 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: HIV infections continued to grow in Russia or in the 526 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: Soviet Union excuse me, and eventually the Gorbachev administry disowns 527 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: the project entirely in nineteen eighty seven. 528 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: But only two years, only two years after that report 529 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 2: the Seagull Report. 530 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: Right, right, So it blew up and then it collapsed, 531 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: but people didn't admit what was going on for a 532 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: few more years. 533 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: That's right. It wasn't until nineteen ninety two that Yevgeny Primakov, 534 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: he was at the time the director of the Foreign 535 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 2: Intelligence Service, he came forward. He confirmed for everyone that 536 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 2: the KGB had in fact created and perpetuated this myth. 537 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 2: They their hands were all over it. And you know, again, 538 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two is quite a while, like seven years 539 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: after that initial report, but still it is so strange 540 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: to think about how many minds were touched by this 541 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: concept and how it spread both on a wide arena, 542 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: but then also you know, within small communities kind of 543 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: whispering to to each other because this wasn't This isn't 544 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: the kind of thing you just go out and you 545 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: just start telling everyone, and it was. I I imagine 546 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: that it was known it would be a whisper campaign 547 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: after the initial push, or at least it feels that way. 548 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 2: It really is fascinating to think about this being orchestrated though. 549 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, word of mouth for almost anything. Word of mouth 550 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: is such a powerful medium of transmission, and it's a 551 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: powerful medium of belief. As human beings, you know, most 552 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: of us are driven to seek harmony of some sort 553 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: with our peer groups. And part of the way we 554 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: seek harmony with each other is through agreeing on things. 555 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: It's a different drive, Like there are some who only 556 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: want to I guess feel like they're dominating a social circle, 557 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: but most people tend to want to seek harmony through 558 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: being able to look at their close associates and friends 559 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, not only do we know what's going on, 560 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: but we all agree on it, you know what I mean. 561 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: So if someone you like or are close to is 562 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: telling you something, depend on how they tell it to you, 563 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: you're going to eventually start to shift toward their ideology. 564 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. 565 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: I agree. 566 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: Fascinating is the right word, because what we found here 567 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: is Operation Infection, whatever you want to call it, is 568 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: a genuine conspiracy to create a fake conspiracy. It's a 569 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: Matroshka doll of schemes within schemes. And I love that 570 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: you've brought up the very short span of time that 571 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: elapsed here. But here's the thing. Even after these people 572 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: are like caught redheaded in a nineteen nineties the government 573 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: officially admits it was a thing, but the damage was 574 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: already done. Because another thing about our species is we 575 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: like our incorrect, like our red meat headlines and sensational stuff. 576 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: We like it big slapped on the front page in 577 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: a headline, maybe with some exclamation marks. I don't know. 578 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: We'll style on it. We'll see how it feels in 579 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: the print shop, but we saved the corrections for like 580 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: the back of page twelve two weeks later, because no 581 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: one reads them. No one really wants to, you know 582 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: what I mean. You got the headline, you got your opinion. 583 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: You're pretty much done. As we said, in the US, 584 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: this virus was predominantly affecting in the early days. It 585 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: was predominantly affecting as far as the experts could see, 586 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: African American communities and people in LGBT communities. These two 587 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: groups have been historically discriminated against and victimized. So it 588 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: is a damning condemnation of American society that this idea 589 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: didn't seem impossible. You know, people would look around and say, well, 590 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: think about all the other things the government has done 591 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: to attack these communities in the past. We know those 592 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: things happened, and we know that science keeps evolving at 593 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: a breakneck pace. So it's kind of like shrug dot gif. 594 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. It it definitely seemed to make sense, especially at 595 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: the time given the pasture, right. I mean, you could 596 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: almost imagine it being oh, well, hey, this disease was 597 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: created by the government to wipe these populations out. Basically, 598 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,479 Speaker 2: you could you can imagine why people would at least 599 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 2: be open to that idea. And the other big problem 600 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 2: here was that, you know, at the time, the presidential administration, 601 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 2: the whole White House structure, if you will, all of 602 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: the people there, they were not tackling it had on it. 603 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: You know, it was a known thing, especially if you 604 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 2: were living in one of the community's communities that was 605 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 2: being ravaged by the by HIV and AIDS. It was 606 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 2: very much well known and it was a terrifying thing. 607 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: But there wasn't It didn't feel like a ton was 608 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: being done about it, and there really wasn't much being 609 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 2: done about it at the time, at least early on. 610 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point because the initial government and 611 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: activity was you know, if you're coming from that space, right, 612 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: you believe in this, then what seems to be a 613 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: lack of activity in the public sphere on the government's 614 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: behalf is just another another piece of proof right at 615 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: that point, I mean, people are not people are not idiotic, right, 616 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: We have to remember that people people then are just 617 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: as smart as people today, and they have all the 618 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: same failings and all the same triumphs. So we can 619 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: understand where this is coming from. And this operation. Infection 620 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: didn't last that long, but its effects are still with us. 621 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 1: A two thousand and five study published in the Journal 622 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: of Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome showed that fifty percent of African 623 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: American people surveyed believed that AIDS is quote a man 624 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: made virus, and fifteen percent thought there was a form 625 00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: of genocide against against black people in general. And like itself, 626 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: this KGB crafted conspiracy theory mutated beyond its original state 627 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: because it was it was out in the wild. You know, 628 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: if you don't already trust the government, why would you 629 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: trust their official statements of any sort. Right, So this, 630 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: once it gets in the wild, once it gets in 631 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: the field, this theory that the US made HIV starts 632 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: to mix with other things, even things that seemed kind 633 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: of contradictory, like AIDS denihilism, which was huge at the time. 634 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, it was like it's a misunderstood things, sort 635 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: of like five G and COVID. Nowadays, I would say for. 636 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: A parallel yeah, interesting, just because there wasn't enough people 637 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: didn't have enough working information or working knowledge of it. 638 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 2: It felt as though it couldn't be real or it 639 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: was not real, and there were so many other stories 640 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 2: still today actually that roll around about the origins of 641 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 2: HIV and AIDS, and I think it is one of 642 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: those things that once you have enough, once you can 643 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: get enough people to question the official story, then all 644 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 2: of the other stories out there begin to be a 645 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: possibility for someone who's already disbelieving. I don't know it 646 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 2: just yeah, it makes sense, and you can kind of 647 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 2: see it at work with so many things now, like 648 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: in today's zeitgeist of just our disbelief at official stories 649 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 2: or disbelief of official stories. 650 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent agreed, And there you have it. 651 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, that is why people genuinely believe the US 652 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: government created HIV. It tragically jibs with past atrocities, It 653 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: mixed with other adjacent or existing conspiracies, and some of 654 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: the world's foremost experts on information warfare just pushed it through. 655 00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: And again, I I hate to say it, but just objective, 656 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: if you look at the at the structure that they implemented, 657 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: their hustle is top notch. As you said, I mean, today, 658 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: it is important to remember there's still unanswered questions about HIV, 659 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: but it is luckily no longer a death sentence, and 660 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 1: scientists are working continually to improve the treatments available. 661 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you look on the other side of 662 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 2: that coin, you realize that disinfo agents masters people who've 663 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 2: been doing this for a long time. They don't stop. 664 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 2: They'll you know, there's a project that may end, or 665 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 2: one campaign that may end, but the people who are 666 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: very good at this will continue to be doing this. 667 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: And they do because they every time they attempt a campaign, 668 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 2: you'll learn a little something about how well it worked, 669 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 2: how well it didn't work, and what you can take 670 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 2: away from it, and things like operation infection can then 671 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 2: get applied to something new. Let's say current events. Let's 672 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 2: talk about the twenty twenty election that's you know, about 673 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 2: to happen. Well, think about the previous election in twenty 674 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 2: sixteen and the manipulation that occurred there. You know, and 675 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: there are people here listening that don't believe any kind 676 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 2: of manipulation occurred. There are people here who one thousand 677 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: percent know that manipulation occurred from Russia during the twenty 678 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 2: sixteen presidential election in the United States. And it is 679 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 2: very interesting to see that divide of you know, our 680 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 2: own disbelief or fervent belief in something that either did 681 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 2: or didn't happen. 682 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: Right right, And you would think that you would think 683 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: that the proliferation of instantaneous communication, social media and the 684 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: Internet would finally smash all the you know, relatively like 685 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: disgusting gatekeeping of information sources that existed beforehand. But unfortunately 686 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: that is not the case. Make no mistake nineteen fifty 687 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, that was nothing. We are in the golden 688 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: age of information warfare and things like this. Just like 689 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: you've heard experts predict pandemics in the future, this is 690 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: another kind of global situation. There will be more things 691 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: like Operation Infection. They will get better. Just like in 692 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: the Terminator movies when the first androids were easy to spot, 693 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: these new propaganda projects are going to get closer and 694 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: closer to seeming like the real thing. The difference, the 695 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: important difference, is that they are not real. They are 696 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: being used to control you, to make you comply with 697 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: the behaviors you would not accept, or to make you 698 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: do things you ordinarily wouldn't do. And on that note, 699 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 1: we have to ask for your help, fellow conspiracy realists. 700 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: What are other propaganda operations proven or alleged that you 701 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: think your fellow listeners should learn more about. 702 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 2: And you may be asking yourselves, Hey, guys, how do 703 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 2: you even know that Operation Infection was real and actual 704 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 2: disinformormation campaign. Well, it's an It's interesting that you ask that, 705 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 2: because one of the main reasons I believe it is 706 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 2: true is because on the CIA dot gov website there 707 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 2: is an entry about it. There are some materials you 708 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 2: can look at, So if you search Operation Infection on 709 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 2: CIA dot gov you can see that. Now I'm just 710 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 2: gonna use my own logic here. Why Why would the 711 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 2: CIA want to put out information about a propaganda campaign 712 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 2: from an opposing at least at the time, in opposing superpower. Hmmm, 713 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 2: Now my wheels are turning even further. I hadn't thought 714 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 2: about it in this way until we started this episode. 715 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: I'm on the edge of my se What is it? 716 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 2: Just the concept that the CIA would want you to 717 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 2: think that Russia is putting out all kinds of disinformation 718 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 2: campaigns or the Soviet Union at the time, so that 719 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 2: maybe you don't think about or you dismiss the United 720 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 2: States originating propaganda campaigns that are going around to disinformation campaigns. 721 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 722 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out where I am within 723 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 2: the net of propaganda. 724 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know, it makes like for a visual analogy. 725 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: It makes me think of maybe two street musicians on 726 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: opposite sides of the street or on stages that are 727 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 1: facing one another, and they're both trying to get attention 728 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,720 Speaker 1: from the same audience, or they're trying to direct attention 729 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: from the same audience, like look what that joker is doing. 730 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: Don't look at what my hands are doing, you know 731 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh wow, that's that's depressing, 732 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: which means it's probably has a seat of truth in. 733 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 3: It, right. 734 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 2: But you can also find it on the Guardian in 735 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 2: New York Times and on you know, the website beyond. 736 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: Video a video you can learn it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 737 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: And we want to hey, if you think Operation Infection 738 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 1: was a hoax, think it's a CIA cover up for 739 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,479 Speaker 1: the truth, let us know too. We would always rather 740 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: learn the truth than be comfortable feeling right about something. 741 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 742 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely, So you can find us, and more importantly, you 743 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: can find your fellow listeners in our communities on Facebook, 744 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,840 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and on Twitter. We especially love to recommend 745 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: here's where it gets crazy over on Facebook where you 746 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: can hang out with us and some of the best 747 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: mods in the moderating business. So shout out to you 748 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: all as well. 749 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 2: That's right. All you need to know is I think 750 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 2: the host names still and you can get in and 751 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 2: start talking about all the episodes, suggest some new ones, 752 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,280 Speaker 2: post some memes, whatever you want to do. It's fun. 753 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: And you know we always say yes, name name one 754 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: or all of the hosts. But if you would like, 755 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: you can just make us laugh. That'll probably get you in. 756 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 2: Absolutely people have been following that direction in our voicemail 757 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,479 Speaker 2: messages that they've been leaving us. You can right now 758 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 2: call our number. It is one eight three three std WYTK. 759 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 2: You can leave up to a three minute message, and 760 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 2: I am very happy to report that both Ben and 761 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 2: I will be listening for sure, and Noel also has 762 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,720 Speaker 2: the information now too, So we might all be listening 763 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 2: to your messages and you might get a call. You 764 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,720 Speaker 2: might just just know that your words will enter our ears. 765 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 2: Oh oh, it sounds weird. 766 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: Matt, I'd like to do an impromptu shout out if 767 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: please okay, I would like to give a shout out 768 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: to Matthew B. 769 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 3: You know who you are. 770 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: Matthew B who called in to say that one of 771 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: his other favorite conspiracy shows has a has a host 772 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: named Matthew and one as a host named Ben, and 773 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: he thinks it is conspiracy, not a conspiracy theory, but 774 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,800 Speaker 1: a conspiracy that he has something some things in common 775 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: with us, name wise, do you remember that one? 776 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 2: I do remember that one, Yes, Susan Ben. He's like, 777 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 2: oh which Matt and Ben? Okay, Yeah, that's really great. 778 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 2: Also had somebody calling in asking about the squirrel population 779 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 2: and coronavirus. I don't know if you get to hear 780 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 2: that one yet, Ben, but it was a very adamant 781 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 2: listener asking about whether or not the squirrels. I think 782 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 2: it's around the Chicago area where for some reason being 783 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 2: affected by coronavirus because they this person hadn't seen any 784 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 2: squirrels all spring. Oh wow, I haven't been able to 785 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 2: find anything. But if you out there are listening and 786 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 2: you have some information about squirrels and where they're, where 787 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 2: they are right now, let us know they're here in Atlanta. 788 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 2: I was looking at some earlier today in my backyard. 789 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 2: But you know who knows. 790 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 1: And if you think social media is not the place 791 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 1: for that squirrel you know, for the hard hitting squirrel reporting. 792 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 1: If you think that a voicemail doesn't give you enough 793 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: time you only have three minutes to fully air out 794 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 1: your thoughts, then never worry. We have one way that 795 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: you can always always contact us, Rain or Shine, Collapse 796 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: of civilization notwithstanding, you can reach us twenty four to 797 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: seven at our good old fashioned email address. 798 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they don't 799 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 2: want you to know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 800 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,959 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 801 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.