WEBVTT - 4: Failure 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.279 Hey, it's Jesse. Just a quick night before we start. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.720 This episode contains discussions of racist verbal abuse and police brutality. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:18.200 Take care listening. I wouldn't call Bruce a queer hero. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.360 For me, it's important to be a fan, but not 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.159 to mythologize him and not to cast him in that 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:36.320 queer hero light. We're currently sitting at the end of 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:41.920 a long concrete jetty in Dover on a kind of 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:42.839 four way. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:48.960 Bench under a shelter. And why are we here, honey, Well, 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:49.879 this is what I love. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:51.920 I'm going to refer to as my depression bench. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:52.920 Welcome. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.960 I have cried here, I've quit my job here, I've 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:57.760 grieved here. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:00:59.440 I come here. 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.520 Whenever I'm free a certain way about something, because, honestly, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.440 what is better than speaking your feelings into the sea. Yes, 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.160 this is episode four of Because the Boss Belongs to Us, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.399 a podcast where two queer nerds sit looking at the 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.840 sea endeavored talking about their feelings. 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.839 I'm Holly, Yeah, I'm Jesse, and we feel like failures. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.840 Off the back of our conversations last episode, we're really 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.119 starting to doubt our mission. Sure, a lot of Bruce 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.480 Brinky's lyrics make us feel seen, but can we actually 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.240 relate to him? He's a multi millionaire and a lot 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.080 of his fans can sometimes make us feel unsafe, and. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.560 When it comes to Bruce himself, there is actually just 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.400 no way we can know how he really feels about things. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.440 Like any celebrity, he has a whole team of people 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:57.760 creating his public image. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:01:59.640 We have no idea what he's actually thinking. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.600 So now we're like, do we even want to make 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.200 a whole podcast series idolizing a rich, white, straight cisman 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.600 whose politics we aren't actually sure of? 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.360 So that's why I got the train from London this 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:12.799 morning to come and see you. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.560 Since last episode. I went to see Bruce Springsteen playing 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.280 Cardiff Wales and it was amazing. I did my usual 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.400 thing of queuing up for hours to try and get 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.560 as close to the front as possible, which meant I 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.760 was surrounded by Springsteen fans for ages and yet as always, 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.760 some of those chats were really nice and the group 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.120 of people What's passed with a sign saying Bruce Springsteen 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.200 Fans for a Free Palestine, which I was just so 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.840 happy to see. But it sparked a whole different conversation 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:43.920 where I was and it was just very clear to 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.800 me that the people around me and the queue. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.160 Didn't share my politics. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.919 To my knowledge, Bruce Springsteen has never played in Israel. 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.760 But we're recording this on the nineteenth of June twenty 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.280 twenty four. And while we've seen some celebrities using their 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.600 platforms to take a stand on Palestinian liberation since the 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.040 most recent militarized escalation last October, Bruce is not one of. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:07.760 That small number. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.639 He's often spoken about as this really political musician. He's 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.040 written songs critiquing the military industrial complex, the. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.919 Two thousand and eight financial crash, border violence, police violence, 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:24.840 exploitive labor practices, gentrification, all things we also care about. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:27.960 But I just don't feel aligned with him right now. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.240 Me and you already spent a good deal of our 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.640 personal lives engaging in activism, and this has only ramped 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.280 up since last October. We're going to protests, We're working 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.560 with local campaign groups fighting for Palestinian liberation and for 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.920 an end to British complicity in this ongoing genocide. 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.880 We've also been mobilizing against some really scary political developments 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.600 that are curtailing trans access to healthcare in the UK, 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.000 especially for trans youth and that's just a name two 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.880 of the terrible things happening in the world right now. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.480 Every time we've met up to do an interview, we've 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.960 had a check in before it started, talking about how 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.200 we're feeling about the world falling apart. Then we've had 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.200 to kind of like turn on our fun queer podcast 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.360 brains and think about Bruce Springsteen in this really separate way. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.240 It's a pretty hard cognitive dissonance, which is. 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.320 So hard as well, because Bruce's music genuinely helps me 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.800 with this stuff. When I was at that Bruce Kage 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.200 in Cardiff, he played bad Lands and you. 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.360 Know the mid late bit, Yeah, for the ones who 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.640 had a notion, a notion deep inside that it ain't 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:30.960 no sin to be glad you're alive. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.719 I love that line. It feels like he's singing my 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.120 shame away. Oh yes. 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.240 And then it just builds and builds into this beautiful crescendo, 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.640 and it just feels to me like a call to action. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.839 I want to find one face that ain't looking through me. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.039 I want to find one place I want to spit 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.120 in the face of these bad lands. I found myself 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:54.080 crying and screaming along to these lyrics. This song, to 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.279 me is about queer anger. It's about queer rage, and 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.400 it allowed me to feel some of the emotions I've 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.080 been feeling about the state of the world. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.240 Oh yeah, literally, I have chills hearing you say that, 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.440 because I felt the exact same way. Weirdly, often my 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.479 anger comes out and out in the streets. Literally, just 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.000 the chorus. When I'm out in the street, I walk 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.000 the way I want to walk. My brain stops caring 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:18.600 about the context of the rest of the song, and 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.960 that bit for me is like the musical embodiment of 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.680 the chant whose streets are streets. It converts my anger 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:29.080 into energy to keep fighting. I feel conflicted because I 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.200 don't think that every piece of entertainment we consume necessarily 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.680 has to be aligned with our politics. And I think 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.840 it's beautiful that we can take the meaning that we 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.320 want from Bruce's lyrics. But then thinking about the mission 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.120 we set ourselves in episode one, it feels like one 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.800 thing for us to personally love Bruce in our own way, 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.920 but a whole other thing to try and shoehorn this 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.279 big celebrity person's from a totally different world to us 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.000 into queer icon status. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.599 Yeah, and that's why we've come to my depression bench. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.880 We're pressing pause on the mission to take stock of 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.080 how we feel about all this. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.200 Last episode, lets introduced us to the legend of Bruce 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.440 Springsteen's relationship with Clarence Clements. 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.880 Their relationship is such a big part of Springsteen fan culture. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.920 They had this beautiful platonic intimacy. They often used to 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.719 kiss on the lips on stage, and after Clarence died 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.840 in twenty eleven, Bruce Springsteen said he was elemental in 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.599 my life and losing him was like losing the rain, 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.479 which is just so fucking beautiful. And this is exactly 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.679 the kind of thing that my tarror reading queer friends 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:36.679 say all the time. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.839 Yes, but it's also something that gives us pause. As 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.760 we said before, Bruce springsteen concerts are overwhelmingly white. Often 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.040 the majority of black people at his shows are people 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.600 who are working musicians on stage or staff working at 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:58.640 the venue. Bruce is celebrated for this seemingly perfect interracial relationship, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.520 But to Bruce's mythology, is that a simplification of the story. 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.800 This came up when Arakzech Jasmine went to visit Lex 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:08.920 in New Jersey. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.040 I'm thinking a lot about Clarence Clemmens, and I'm thinking 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.480 a lot about how his relationship with Bruce does a 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.000 lot of the humanizing of him. It brings him back 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:25.920 down to reality. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.080 For me, there's this episode of Bruce's podcast Renegade. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:34.080 Where he talks about how Clarence is called the N 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.920 word and Bruce, instead of like kicking off like you'd 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.640 want too, like a superhero would, he becomes this just 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.960 this guy right who doesn't know how. He feels awkward, 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.400 he feels uncomfortable, he doesn't know how to navigate that, 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:47.880 but he just stands there to be with his friend. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.920 I think it's those moments which humanize him. He isn't 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.640 this superhuman, He is just a person. 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.480 This is a very generous reading from lex I think 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.440 being able to see this moment as a testament to 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.840 no one being perfect, to the idea that everyone makes mistakes, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.120 but we managed to show love and show up for 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.400 friends in the ways that we can. But for me, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.640 I look at this moment and I worry, like, is 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.160 this a representation of what it. 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.560 Was like for Clarence to tour with the East Street Band? 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.160 I don't know, but could this be indicative that, as 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.760 the only black band member, he was not only the 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.720 only one experiencing racism, but also the one who might 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.920 have had to do some emotional labor holding the awkwardness 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.640 and discomfort of his white bandmates. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.880 Jasmine had some reservations about this too. 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.120 I'll be honestly, there is some part that makes me 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.120 feel a little weird about Like, you know, Clarence and 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.640 Bruce have this deep, deep friendship, but then at the 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.480 same time, it's like, here is this black man that 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.680 is being not the intention, I'm sure, but like is 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.560 part of this device to make a white man more relatable. 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.040 That interaction for me actually is more that he messed 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.880 up for someone that he really cared about. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.240 Yeah, I think the thing where I'm kind of going 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.280 with here is that like the larger idea of a 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:23.000 queer icon, right, queer folks that then create queer icons. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.319 It's funny that a lot of queer icons are not queer. 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.640 One of my queer icons is Lord Dern, not only 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:40.719 queer icon style icon. For me, I look at Lord. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:47.080 Dern as a way of how I move through the 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.560 world as a transferm person. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.880 But here I am a black woman who has no 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:05.000 relatability to this very wealthy white woman. I feel kind 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.960 of strange about that for me personally, you know the 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.720 fact that like femininity is only granted towards white womanhood, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.199 and what does it mean for like a black person 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.040 to base parts of their femininity on like a white woman. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:21.480 Like for me, there's that levels of distortion that I feel, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.280 and then also that feeling of like there are fucking 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.840 black trans women that I can just like immediately, like 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.280 look up to immediately and like have that level. Is 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.480 there any sort of mental gymnastics that you personally feel 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.000 in regards to Bruce, but then also in the wider 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.240 scope of like am not a queer people like attaching 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.480 themselves to like sist straight people. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.760 I think I think for me it's probably because he 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:56.760 was just something that unfortunately it was there, right. Bruce 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.719 was something that we'd listened to in the car, we 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.360 listened to him in the house. He was just part 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.679 of popular culture. So I think just in my mind 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:06.880 I had to make him what I needed him to 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:11.720 be to get through. I couldn't tell you why why 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.960 do we do this, but maybe it's because if we 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.280 have them, if we make them moll mold them into 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:21.160 these things. Then they can't let us down as opposed 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:26.840 to real people in our lives that have the capacity to. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.679 And it's like a comfort, like a fictional soft comfort 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:37.000 that I think we as queer people need, especially at 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.400 points when reality. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.439 Is it's hard. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.040 I can patchwork together on identity and then you know, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:47.880 wear it like a little blanket when I don't feel 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.280 quite as tough as I should. I think that's how 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:52.160 I move with it. 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.240 I love this image of lex patchworking and identity for 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.120 themselves things that are available to them. But there's another 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.760 bit of me that's like, that's really tiring to have 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.880 to constantly be contorting the scraps that we have and 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.040 molding them into a ship where we can make sense 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.040 out of them. It is an amazing queer skill, but 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.479 also it comes from a place of scarcity. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.160 Yeah, I think about there's a lot about the history 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.360 of queer people needing to find role models. 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.440 It's easy to forget that within living memory. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.080 For some of our elders, homosexuality was illegal in the UK. 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.560 It only started being decriminalized in England and Wales in 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.239 nineteen sixty seven, and then we lost an unimaginable amount. 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:41.599 Of queer people to the AIDS crisis. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.400 One of the many awful impacts of those things is 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.640 that now we have so few queer elders due to 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.720 decisions to not be out publicly or to fear shame 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:57.200 or death. Things are starting to change now there are 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.240 many more out public celebrities. Whether one of the impacts 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.440 of this was that queer people got used to having 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.560 to find queerness in role models that don't share our 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:11.720 marginalized identities. I use my own interpretations of Bruce's lyrics 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.840 to find words to understand my gender before I had 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.239 proper queer community. Over time, I met and formed relationships 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.880 with lots of trans people, some of whom became role 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.000 models for me, And now years later, I am sometimes 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.960 the one giving advice to some of my more newly. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:29.760 Out trans friends. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.040 It's kind of like Bruce was a placeholder for me 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.040 until I found actual queer community. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.960 And honestly, that's really similar for me. Bruce is still 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.400 so important to me now, but I do think it's 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.000 significant that the time I discovered him was when I 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.680 was still closeted, needing to find meaning and what I 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.640 had available to me. If we're thinking about queer icons, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.679 should we in fact be moving away from this practice, 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.520 like Jasmine said, finding role models within our own communities, 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.559 rather than finding yet another a rich, sis straight right 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.040 celeb to imprint on. 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:15.560 That's next. We're back. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.960 We're still sitting on my depression bench speaking of our 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.640 feelings to the same the people were thinking about as 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.040 queer icons are often not very queer at all. A 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.080 lot of them are straight, A lot of them are 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.080 these rich celebrities that just don't represent our politics, that 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:35.160 just doesn't sit right. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.320 This is something I discussed with Tom Rasmussen, who we 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:43.200 heard from way back in episode one. We were talking 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.760 about whether one of the unifying factors of queer icons 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.400 is you dress up as them at a party, which 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.440 it's got us talking about the singer, songwriter, visual artist 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:52.800 and legend and one. 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.640 But then what's interesting is there's queer icons that you 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.720 wouldn't dress up as like you would never but I 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.800 consider her as a queer icon, but she's queer, So. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.160 Then it's like, is that a different Hello Fish? 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.880 I don't know, that's really interesting. Can a queer person 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.440 be a queer icon? Does a queer icon in the 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.320 way we're talking about it do they have to be 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.320 like parodiable because. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:21.600 You would never parody only. 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.720 You couldn't, yeah, because she's she's mother. But like you 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:30.200 could parody Mariah, or you could parody or not parody, 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.120 but you could you want to sort of dress up 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.600 as them. This is very hard, I'm sorry, not really being. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.840 No, no, no, no, That's why we're that's why we're making 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:37.280 the series. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.160 But then I think also that there's an interesting question 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.640 about gay icon queer icon, gay icon is particular. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:54.320 Hmmm, yeah, interesting, have we actually been bad scientists? We're 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.960 trying to test and Bruce's icon potential against a methodological 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.920 framework that we based on a bunch of gay icons, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.560 But was that the wrong control group to be easy? 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:04.600 Yeah. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.880 Also, a lot of these more obvious gay icons Brittany, Madonna, Whitney, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.160 et cetera, are often anointed by cis white gay. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.920 Men, a part of the community that has historically had 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.120 the loudest voice, the most sway in shaping queer culture. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.160 We're coming at this question of Bruce's icon credentials from 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.720 a lens of like dyke and trans mass culture. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.800 In our lives, we use gay to refer to people's sexualities, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.600 where thereas in queer is a term that speaks to 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.120 a political identity too, as the old phrase goes, not 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.360 gays and happy queer as in fuck you. So this 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.240 gay icon versus queer icon distinction feels important. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.200 Gay icon is like rhinestones on the bell. Gay icon 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:53.360 does reinvent every single album that story of like of 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:58.080 like real unbelievable wealth and success through adversity and getting 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.960 there yourself and it's you, you, thank you and God, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.719 and that's it when you receive your like thirty second Grammy. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.800 What's really complicated then about that as idolizing these people 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:10.560 who for whom that is the narrative is that's like 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:15.120 a deeply deeply thatcher right, really right wing narrative as well. 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.879 In an American context, like totally typical American dream. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.320 Pulled up by the bootstraps, Yeah, regionistic, which completely which 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.560 is sort of really empathetical to like queer practices of 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.520 community or whatever. And so I think that's why maybe 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.080 it's hard to have an icon come out of the 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.560 queer scene. Yeah, the older I've got, the more I've 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.159 been turned off by that narrative, and the more I 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.080 find it to be sort of quite like bleak. 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.159 Can queer icon means something different to gay icon, like 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:48.000 in the way we're. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.760 Using it, And who are we to decide who a 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:51.679 queer icon is? 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.600 Are we falling into accidentally homogenizing the queer experience by 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.040 speaking for all queer people? 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.840 Should we be moving away from these kinds of definitions entirely? 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.520 Wait, a queer icons just unsatisfactory substitutes for queer role 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.200 models and community. 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:06.800 We need to get on this bench. 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.359 Too many questions, not enough answers. We're getting a little 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.000 bit navel gaizy. We need tooth away from the sea. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:15.480 I have an idea. 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.160 We get to have some we kind of walked down 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:23.160 this round here. 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:23.800 We're gonna get. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:29.520 Ahead of like bad things to see walking away from. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:42.360 You come in, come in all right? 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.280 You get oh such one. 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.760 Okay, So for the benefit to take we are now 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.560 back in Holly's house Stanley in their living. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.680 Room with tea left wind. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.359 And we have crafted an email to Jack how was 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.600 the writer, academic, and author of. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.800 The Queer Art of Failure, which we. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.480 Feel is apt for what is happening right now. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.760 So this is what we said in the email. 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.880 In episode four of our series, we've hit a rite 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.320 block on our mission, and we're looking for a kind 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.280 of queer agony uncle to talk our feelings of failure 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.960 through with we would it, of course absolutely to be 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.200 If this sounds intriguing, would you be up for a chat? 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.160 So I guess we'll see if he's up for. 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:56.040 A jat that's next, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:57.200 to us, or does he? 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:58.640 We're not really sure anymore. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.520 So, sir, it's a few days after that day we 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.960 spent on a depression bench and we've. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.560 Heard back from Jack, haven't we we have? Would you 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:11.399 like to read his reply? 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.440 Yes, let me read the reply from esteemed at Jack 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:19.760 Harveston beloved queer theories too all. He said, Hi, there, 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.119 love the premise getting an unlikely figure recognized as a 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:28.960 queer icon, but don't love the boss. So that's a 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:29.760 past from. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:33.080 Me, Thanks Jack. I mean, at least he said he 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.720 loves the premise, and you know that means a lot. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.640 So we've had to pivot, as queers often do, and 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 I've come up with another solution. I feel pretty good about. 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:48.680 My Mum and dad went to a few of his concerts, 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.119 like they went to quite a famous one that he 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.359 did in mid eighties and he played in Newcastle and 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.560 he gave quite a big amount of money to the 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.000 local miners lodge who were on strike at the time. 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:00.560 But my mom and dad was that tour. 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.280 This is a dear friend of mine and our substitute 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.640 agony A. CJ. Ray's parents brought back a big Born 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.400 in the USA poster from that concept, the one that's 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.720 Bruce's butt, which they put up in the basement. 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.480 I remember going down the stairs and seeing it every 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:23.560 time and just thinking like, hmm, that's pretty nice. I 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:25.480 think I knew from an early age that I was 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.600 attracted to both men and women, and I think for me, 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:33.320 like the ultimate like early attraction was definitely Bruce. 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.520 I know from the queer punk scene. They are a 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.199 true Bruce Springsteen mega fan who also shares our politics, 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.240 so I thought they'd be good for some emotional processing. 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:52.720 I used to play in a queer punk band called Kinky, 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:54.719 and we were playing a gig in London. Going upstairs 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.320 was like a zine festival. Holly was there, and Holly 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.960 had all these Bruce Springsteen zines and I saw them 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.000 and it kind of blew my mind a bit, and 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.320 I was like, oh my God, Like, I love scenes 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.520 and I love Bruce Springsteen and I think he's a 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.800 sexy man. I'm gonna make a zene about this, and 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:13.359 they did. 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.040 I have it up in my bedroom wom It's called 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:17.200 Butt Springsteen. 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:26.440 I draw pictures of an accentuated Bruce Springsteen butt at 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.040 different parts of his career, talk about the different eras 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:34.160 and the born to run, but the tunnel of love, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.080 but all the different butts, and then I give each 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.480 one like a rating out of ten, but just as 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:42.120 a spoiler, they're They're all ten. 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:49.280 So CJ now runs an art platform called Black Lodge Press. 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:54.280 They design these beautiful posters with political statements fuck Matcher, bullshit, 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.760 forever vote with a fucking brick. The past, we inherit, 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.720 the future we build. They do a bun of research 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.560 into each one, and they've made loads of zines as well, 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.240 exploring queer radical histories of resistance. 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:08.920 When I go to the big Palestine demos that have 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:11.960 been happening since October in London, you see black eards 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.840 with Blacklodge Press art everywhere. We wanted to talk to 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.800